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什麼買的武器都比國外貴的這麼多就變成說我們好像一點籌碼都沒有"},{"start":133.514,"end":156.672,"text":"就好像他講什麼 比如說死神無人機我們就比國外買的 別的國家買的貴了好幾倍啊 難道不是嗎死神無人機那時候是你在當部長的時候買的嘛 死神無人機是不是應該就是我剛剛跟委員報告 你的作戰需求 打的需求 因為不可否認 有些高科技精密武器裝備你不能不相信我就問你一句話啦"},{"start":157.978,"end":165.142,"text":"是不是面對美國強武器採購就是他說了算連這個50號也是他說了算應該不是這樣子我跟你講這句話是因為顧立雄告訴我這樣子啦欸 我在問你這個啦所以這個研討方說不是我們有談判籌碼然後呢顧立雄說我們沒有談判籌碼這個是我要問的啦你不知道我的陷阱在這裡喔"},{"start":185.871,"end":186.251,"text":"現在的情勢跟以前不一樣"},{"start":215.285,"end":215.525,"text":"請問你的任內校招辦過幾次"},{"start":227.441,"end":245.106,"text":"教召教育召集教召我認定有辦過教召幾次是現在有一些精進的一些措施時間也加長了然後頻次也增加了對現在好像可以訓練武器嘛是不是對訓練打靶什麼之類的射擊對射擊嘛你那個教召的地點都選在哪裡戰術位置所謂的戰術位置對戰術位置就是你作戰在哪裡就選在哪裡教召是"},{"start":257.11,"end":285.264,"text":"有沒有在大學裡面印象中因為這是後備指揮部底下跟後備指揮部也是國防部管的後備指揮部王牧部長不是每一件事都非常清楚這個你要了解啊這麼重要的事情叫招這麼重要的事情以後如果老公要來的話我們要動員我們的後備軍人要去上前線的這麼重要的事情國防部長你說的我不知道"},{"start":286.184,"end":295.969,"text":"我講他有他的一個考量應該是戰術位置在那附近戰術位置在哪裡就定哪裡好這句話非常好那為什麼選擇政大我們政大校友大家瘋炮而且問了教育部長教育部長不知道教育部長不知道"},{"start":308.939,"end":314.564,"text":"阿民進黨不是高舉黨政軍要退出校園嗎?阿軍隊怎麼開進校園?裡面還有射擊咧?阿幾百人在政黨校園裡面要待一個禮拜以上怎麼會這樣子呢?怎麼這麼離譜呢?開倒車啊!"},{"start":328.578,"end":339.901,"text":"沿德國不當國防部長以後我們一些都亂了套 開倒車啊 郭立雄開倒車軍隊大喇喇的開進大學的校園大學校園是多麼敏感的地方啊黨政軍要退出校園結果我們現在軍隊後備的叫召大喇喇的開進大學校園不能夠接受啦"},{"start":357.498,"end":357.818,"text":"主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時46分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請退輔會的嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主委好。有關雷神被美國的國會監察體系查出來有弊端，這裡面有詐欺的事情，退錢了，總共退臺灣52億，雷神這個事情在你國防部的任期內嗎？是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員剛剛講的這件事，我不是很清楚，52億。"],["賴委員士葆：52億呀！今天各大媒體都講了雷神有個弊端，然後美國國會查出來了，說總共要賠好幾億美金，其中有一部分是臺灣的，這個時候是你當部長的時候嗎？不是？不知道？回去查一下好嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我回去了解一下。"],["賴委員士葆：回去了解一下，我們要知道你的一些看法。請問過去你在當部長的時候，我們跟美國軍購的價格都不能殺價，是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，關於軍購這一塊，我們有我們的機制，就是它一定要在我們的五年建軍計畫裡面，然後經過部內有3個系統，看是不是符合作戰需求，這是第一關，符合作戰需求才會進來；第二個就系分，系分就是委員所指導的它的價格、它的市場，會做一個比較，不是一家；系分完最後第三部分才是投綱，去找錢要買、編預算買。所以這三個步驟，我當部長的時候……因為我離開我不知道，但這三個步驟是一定要有的，要經過這個程序。"],["賴委員士葆：你那個是在講過程，我是在講結果，外界看到的是為什麼我們買的武器都比國外貴了這麼多？就變成我們好像一點籌碼都沒有，就好像他講多少就是什麼，比如說死神無人機，我們就比國外買的、比別的國家買的貴了好幾倍，難道不是嗎？死神無人機那時候是你在當部長的時候買的嗎？死神無人機，是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：應該就是我剛剛跟委員報告的，這是作戰需求、打的需求，因為不可否認，有些高科技機密武器裝備你不能不向美軍買……"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你一句話，是不是面對向美國武器採購的部分，就是它說了算，連這個52億也是它說了算？"],["嚴主任委員德發：應該不是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講這句話，是因為顧立雄告訴是我這樣子，所以我就問你這個啦！所以嚴德發說不是，我們有談判籌碼，但是顧立雄說我們沒有談判籌碼，這是我要問的啦！可以有點籌碼嗎？臺灣買這麼多武器，結果通通它說了算，剛才我為什麼一開始想問雷神賠多少？也是它說了算，我們一點皮條都沒有，也不敢去查，52億多開心啊！高興得要死！有錢可以拿就好，還敢講什麼？所以主委不同意顧部長講的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：現在的情勢跟以前不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你洩底牌，你就不必替他講話了。","第二個，請問在你任內，教召辦過幾次？你擔任國防部長的時候。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我沒聽清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：教召。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我任內有辦過教召。"],["賴委員士葆：幾次？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，現在有一些精進的措施，時間也加長了，頻次也增加了。"],["賴委員士葆：對，現在好像可以訓練武器嘛，對不對？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對。"],["賴委員士葆：訓練打靶什麼之類的。"],["嚴主任委員德發：射擊的。"],["賴委員士葆：射擊嘛？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對。"],["賴委員士葆：你教召的地點都選在哪裡？"],["嚴主任委員德發：戰術位置，所謂的戰術位置……"],["賴委員士葆：戰術位置？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，戰術位置就是你在哪裡作戰，就選在哪裡教召。"],["賴委員士葆：是，有沒有在大學裡面？印象中。"],["嚴主任委員德發：因為這是後備指揮部底下……"],["賴委員士葆：後備指揮部也是國防部管的。"],["嚴主任委員德發：國防部部長不是每一件事都非常清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：這個你要了解啊！這麼重要的事情，教召這麼重要的事情，以後如果老共要來的話，我們要動員我們的後備軍人上前線，這麼重要的事情，國防部長卻說我不知道……"],["嚴主任委員德發：我想他有他的考量，應該是戰術位置在那附近……"],["賴委員士葆：戰術位置在哪裡，你就定哪裡？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["賴委員士葆：好，這句話非常好！那為什麼選擇政大？我們政大校友大家開砲了，而且問了教育部長，教育部長說不知道，民進黨不是高舉黨政軍要退出校園嗎？軍隊怎麼開進校園裡面，還有射擊？幾百人在政大校園裡面要待一個禮拜以上，怎麼會這樣子呢？怎麼這麼離譜呢？開倒車啊！嚴德發不當國防部長以後，我們一切都亂了套，開倒車啊！顧立雄開倒車，軍隊大喇喇的開進大學校園，大學校園是多麼敏感的地方，黨政軍要退出校園，結果現在軍隊後備的教召大喇喇的開進政大、開進大學校園，這不能夠接受啦！部長，我講得有道理吧？"],["嚴主任委員德發：他肯定有他作戰需求的考量。"],["賴委員士葆：你同不同意我講的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員剛剛講的是有道理。"],["賴委員士葆：很有道理嘛？就你嚴德發認同賴士葆講的嘛！謝謝啦！這樣可以啦！"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，嚴主委請回。接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra 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