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那我現在詢問在座的委員因為一般處理有兩種方式一個還是先確認完議事錄再讓大家發言那一個是先發言我們再處理那請各位委員表達意見要不要先確認上次的會議事錄再發言有兩種不同的意見那我們表決一下好了要先確認那個議事錄的請舉手"},{"start":2113.714,"end":2117.617,"text":"本委員會有5位贊成,先確認議事錄"},{"start":2138.473,"end":2148.843,"text":"反對確認議事錄請舉手本委員會有幾位來現在在處理程序來請不舉手是不是好那我們就先確認議事錄來請宣讀議事錄"},{"start":2151.149,"end":2154.312,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年3月13日星期三9時至13時21分3月14日星期四9時至13時12分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳昭芝等14人"},{"start":2168.604,"end":2193.715,"text":"列席委員林德福等29人請假委員廖偉祥參加亞洲太平洋國會議員聯合會APPU年會列席官員3月13日勞動部部長許明春等相關人員3月14日環境部部長薛復聖等相關人員主席黃兆吉委員秀芳3月13日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢"},{"start":2195.836,"end":2214.526,"text":"本會議由勞動部部長報告後．委員陳昭芝等24人提出質詢．均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆．委員廖偉祥、林德福及葉元之所提書面質詢．列入紀錄刊登公報．決定．報告及詢答完畢．委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者．請相關機關於2週內以書面答覆．委員令要求期限者從其所定．通過臨時提案3項．"},{"start":2222.53,"end":2251.338,"text":"3月14日,邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。本日會議由環境部部長報告後,委員林月琴等24人提出質詢,均經環境部部長、幾個相關主管等即席答覆。委員廖偉祥、楊耀及邱振軍所提書面質詢,列入記錄刊登公報,決定一、報告及詢答完畢,二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆,委員令要求期限者從其鎖定,"},{"start":2251.778,"end":2276.52,"text":"通過臨時提案5項宣讀完畢好請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處好如果沒有的話那我們議事錄確定那因為剛剛有委員登記就是針對今天會議提出這個要權宜問題那現在目前登記的"},{"start":2280.218,"end":2280.298,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":2314.053,"end":2314.717,"text":"針對今天我們"},{"start":2316.553,"end":2346.093,"text":"針對今天這個王玉明委員所排定的這個有關社會安全網的一個專題報告那我是認為就是說王委員他這個曾經是我們爾蒙的董事在上禮拜之前都還是我們爾蒙的董事那根據我們立法委員行為法第22條立法委員行使職權就有利益迴避情勢之意識然後應該迴避審議及表決所以我認為今天是不是"},{"start":2347.153,"end":2363.602,"text":"王委員不適宜擔任今天的主席,是不是國民黨這邊在另外推派一位主席出來?我是認為王委員是不適宜。今天關於本案"},{"start":2364.242,"end":2391.92,"text":"相關的臨體或者是處理我也認為王委員不宜來參與那應該以王委員曾經在爾蒙擔任董事你的經驗或者是你曾經國民黨把你推薦為這次不分區你是以這個社福專業那應該針對這件事情發生之後應該以你的專業大家一起來討論如何來精進未來要如何處理而不是來利益迴避所以我"},{"start":2393.181,"end":2400.792,"text":"這個應該要利益迴避,所以我在這邊建請我們的這個王委員應該今天不適宜來擔任今天的委員會的主席,好謝謝"},{"start":2404.403,"end":2421.676,"text":"黃秀芳委員陳述的是個人意見第一個我要表達在上個禮拜四我已經公開請辭了兒福聯盟的董事所以我不知道為什麼還有所謂的利益迴避的問題另外如果你認為本席不適合的話麻煩你提案麻煩你提案麻煩你提案我告訴大家這一件事情發生的時候"},{"start":2432.865,"end":2456.757,"text":"我也是3月11號從媒體才告知而蒙的執行長沒有告訴董事所以他也請回了執行長董事後董事會也已經把他辭退了所以不要失焦不要失焦你已經發言結束你已經下台為什麼要上來"},{"start":2457.817,"end":2467.588,"text":"那我就是要講說,這個案件發生的時候,請問林建黨現在今天是在模糊焦點嗎?今天我們要檢討的是社會安全網：今天要檢討的是社會安全網"},{"start":2480.781,"end":2494.485,"text":"結果民進黨委員的發言應該就是在研討委員為什麼民進黨的委員今天不敢進入直接程序我們來討論社會安全網的議題反而在研討一個不來討論這個是一個非公的措施請問立法院：你的時間到請下台"},{"start":2504.028,"end":2521.957,"text":"那這個我要講一下今天委員會的重點是什麼請委員不要失焦特別黃秀芳委員你作為召委今天召委本來就有排案權請問社會安全網不應該在衛環委員會大家充分的討論嗎請問不應該討論嗎請問不應該討論嗎"},{"start":2533.325,"end":2559.675,"text":"請問你們現在是要阻擾社會安全網的討論嗎?黃秀芳委員跟吳思瑤委員跟林月琴委員在阻擾社會安全網的討論黃秀芳委員、吳思瑤委員、林月琴委員現在就是在阻擾整個社會安全網的討論"},{"start":2563.493,"end":2573.24,"text":"主要社會安全網的討論請全國民眾看清楚民進黨正在主要社會安全網的討論我們請陳昭之委員"},{"start":2587.931,"end":2604.002,"text":"發生了這麼重大的孽兒事件我們要看的不是衛福部的政令宣導我們要看的是檢討報告無論衛福部你怎麼描述這個安全網有多麼縝密未來會多麼好明明就是徹底失靈了才會發生這個悲劇所謂的檢討報告一定要有人認錯"},{"start":2610.347,"end":2633.619,"text":"認錯,錯在哪裡才能檢討改進所謂的檢討報告你要從根本原因去分析要了解為什麼會發生這樣的疏失誠實的去了解你才可能提出有效的對應的改進方案整個社會安全網無論你站在這個安全網哪個位置你都必須站好站穩做該做的事不能遺漏要做好做滿甚至不能做錯"},{"start":2635.28,"end":2657.789,"text":"這件事情究竟是人的問題還是制度的問題都沒有搞清楚衛福部你交出的報告就開始修改SOP如果社安網這麼強壯的話那孩子怎麼會出事呢好再看看那個密密麻麻的時間序禮拜天你們才交給各委員的兩個社會局家而服各自為政的一個填充題衛福部的角色在哪裡呢"},{"start":2658.769,"end":2681.604,"text":"我們都看到before所謂第四個保姆已經看到兒童小朋友前兒這個淤青有斷崖有無神為什麼只是記錄沒有去搜沒有去追查就聽保姆怎麼講就直接搜嗎這孩子一出生就命運多舛最需要社會安全網的保護但是從頭到尾都被置身在這個社會安全網之外所以連"},{"start":2682.705,"end":2683.546,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭志委員接下來我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":2713.411,"end":2730.085,"text":"在這邊還是要提醒我們的主席因為今天你到底適不適格做主席因為立法委員行為法第22條就明定你在行使職權就有利益迴避情勢的議案應該要迴避審議跟表決而福利聯盟你在擔任董事事上剛剛講說因為"},{"start":2732.867,"end":2758.667,"text":"執行長沒有我跟你講董事會事實上事實上都有定期召開除非今天董事會失職那從頭到尾都失職嗎所以也要問的是那為什麼你今天還是可以坐在這邊一直在講捍衛兒少權益的時候過去沒有被兒少幫兒少把關然後進到立法院裡邊那今天你就坐在這個位子上你怎麼可能去審議提出更公正的對兒少權益更有幫助的一些"},{"start":2759.527,"end":2784.022,"text":"政策所以我質疑我們的主席是不是應該要做利益迴避不應該在主席台上請我們的王主席來王育民主席不要只逃避然後呢不迴避請你請國民黨呢是不是可以派出另外的主席當然我覺得質詢甚至質詢跟我們的林棟我都覺得不適合"},{"start":2790.005,"end":2799.874,"text":"請我們的王玉敏不要只逃避不迴避請國民黨派出適宜的人來擔任主席這個位置"},{"start":2801.823,"end":2802.423,"text":"請主席回應"},{"start":2839.071,"end":2852.477,"text":"請你針對這件事情這個可能新科委員很不理解這個委員會進行的程序我們現在是權宜發言委員發言時間你如果發言結束無話可講就請回座 謝謝不要欺負新科委員好不好就不懂程序啊不懂程序就換下一個下一個委員時間到了換下一個委員"},{"start":2865.575,"end":2868.037,"text":"我這個是新科的老鳥今天的題目是邀請衛生部長、教育部、法務部、內政警政署"},{"start":2890.903,"end":2918.773,"text":"來就社會安全網推動情形及策進的作為我們的目標不要私交今天是要看民進黨政府也是講衛福部你要怎麼做你中央做不好、失職的地方我覺得我們今天是要來講這件事那民進黨政府跟"},{"start":2919.895,"end":2928.652,"text":"我們民進黨黨團跟我們的衛福部是在甩鍋給縣市政府還有"},{"start":2929.784,"end":2951.374,"text":"聚焦攻擊王一鳴這個已經失焦了這個可以另外排時間來講所以今天就是要開會、要檢討讓衛福部提出怎麼要來撥這個門我們看到這種這麼慘絕人防的事情我想社會上上下下沒人聽的下去"},{"start":2952.751,"end":2971.782,"text":"今天就要好好來談至於各個聯盟．兒少立新基金會他們內部的他們有檢討報告我們的衛福部要怎麼去督促衛福部你自己的職責要講清楚不是只有兩三頁所以陳昭之委員說要退回我也是蠻贊成的退回好好的檢討那我們是要求"},{"start":2978.578,"end":2979.138,"text":"臨時提案11點半討論"},{"start":2998.329,"end":3000.852,"text":"民進黨不要護航,我們要諮詢!"},{"start":3017.354,"end":3039.148,"text":"現在有提案然後依程序發言進行表決提案人蘇清泉、圖全景、盧憲一那我們現在今日會議表決裁點名表決方式進行提案人蘇清泉主席我懷疑尋問的權利王立民主席"},{"start":3039.548,"end":3040.849,"text":"我們現在開始進行點名陳金輝委員、盧憲一委員"},{"start":3057.546,"end":3074.202,"text":"林月琴委員、陳昭芝委員、邱振軍委員、蘇清泉委員、廖偉祥委員、屠權己委員、黃秀芳委員、王振旭委員、劉建國委員"},{"start":3077.155,"end":3102.366,"text":"林淑芬委員我們現在依據委員提出來的議案停止程序發言進行表決我們現在進行點名表決我們逐一唱名進行點名表決陳金輝委員是不是贊成停止程序發言"},{"start":3106.403,"end":3116.891,"text":"無線衣委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?林月琴委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?"},{"start":3118.993,"end":3123.238,"text":"陳昭芝委員是不是贊成停止程序發言陳昭芝委員贊成我們要對象是邱正居委員是不是贊成停止程序發言"},{"start":3137.255,"end":3145.603,"text":"蘇清泉委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?黃秀芳委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?黃秀芳委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?"},{"start":3163.325,"end":3179.963,"text":"王委員．應該要立意迴避是不是擔演同意訓練的專案報告．應該要立意迴避．應該要立意迴避．不要求人監裁．要求人監裁判．還不履書分委員．"},{"start":3193.171,"end":3220.583,"text":"我們要解決問題我們要質詢國民黨要解決問題民進黨只想要解決王育敏不要失焦我們要質詢我們要解決問題不要失焦我們要質詢我們要解決問題民進黨只想解決王育敏"},{"start":3221.872,"end":3238.82,"text":"不要犯政治化我們要執行我們要解決問題民進黨只想要解決王玉敏請不要犯政治化你們再這樣下去全國的家長都很痛心啊"},{"start":3239.36,"end":3256.412,"text":"王育敏要回避!王育敏要回避!我們要解決問題!我們要解決問題!我們要直詢!平靜黨只想要解決王育敏!不要犯政治化!我們要直詢!這個要壞掉!這個要壞掉了!不要破壞!不要破壞!"},{"start":3265.82,"end":3285.779,"text":"請給我們執行的成立不要亂我們要執行我們要解決問題我們也要執行我們要執行我們要解決問題請你們不要犯正句話請五委員不要霸占發言台請五委員不要霸占發言台"},{"start":3287,"end":3312.636,"text":"信徒委員不要霸占發言台我們要質詢我們要質詢國民黨要解決問題民進黨只想解決王育民不要霸占發言台不要犯政治化、模糊焦點"},{"start":3315.457,"end":3319.819,"text":"民進黨不要亂啊!我們要開會!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!"},{"start":3332.845,"end":3342.096,"text":"我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!"},{"start":3354.35,"end":3373.307,"text":"護航衛福部、衛福報告部委員：換主席就來出席不要模糊焦點換主席就來出席公共施施長蘇昭如保護服務施施長張秀淵心理健康施施長陳亮宇"},{"start":3374.748,"end":3402.687,"text":"口腔健康師主秘張又明民進黨要不要開會民進黨不要不開會只故意要護航民進黨就是用這種暴力不敢監督衛福部只敢監督立委這是什麼呀執政黨這什麼呀執政黨衛福部是不是心虛衛福部心虛了嗎是不是衛福部心虛不要心虛不要心虛"},{"start":3404.609,"end":3410.858,"text":"請不要心虛、模糊焦點喔!不要模糊焦點!"},{"start":3421.112,"end":3433.367,"text":"接下來,我們請...會員服務是不是心虛?民進黨是不是心虛?不敢開會!不敢讓委員質詢!早上不來天道,現在不敢開會!這就是執政黨!這就是民進黨!"},{"start":3437.532,"end":3452.411,"text":"請衛福部部長發言民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!不要護航!"},{"start":3455.017,"end":3469.965,"text":"我們有提案我們要求更換主席的提案請優先處理請習近宣告請衛福部部長上台請衛福部部長上台我們提出要更換主席請委員回報請尊重召委請尊重立法院請尊重議事規則"},{"start":3484.472,"end":3498.538,"text":"請優先處理,民進黨不要心虛,民進黨不要心虛,民進黨不敢質詢,對福布只敢護航,民進黨不要心虛,來,我們可以表決,表決要不要處理提案"},{"start":3507.628,"end":3524.653,"text":"我們沒有我們新會議進行到了三個月沒有辦到現在還在護航到現在還在護航我們要進行到現在還在護航我們提出要更換主席的提案要優先處理"},{"start":3532.477,"end":3551.666,"text":"現在都是來開會的民進黨在旁邊鬧場好難看所有的委員都按照程序已經表達停止程序發言但是民進黨還在鬧場民進黨在護航衛福部不讓官員上台報告不讓官員來質詢"},{"start":3556.303,"end":3572.874,"text":"今天剛才大家已經都說停止程序發言了應該可以開始發言但是民進黨在鬧事當執政黨還在鬧事都是執政黨人還在鬧事立法委員應該是要站出來監督行政單位監督衛福部可是民進黨的立法委員不願意監督衛福部"},{"start":3583.541,"end":3590.284,"text":"在鬧事還想常主席談．順利進行．我們要開會．大家早早7點就來安排咨詢．就來登記咨詢．就是希望能夠開會．來去為會服務．開會．利益要回避會．我們要開會．我們要開會．我們要開會．我們要開會．我們要開會．"},{"start":3612.295,"end":3612.655,"text":"我們要開會 我們要開會"},{"start":3633.425,"end":3638.149,"text":"我們要開會我們要開會我們要開會我們要開會上次質詢的時候已經遲到了7個民進黨的立委現在9點半了還開不了會是不是已經9點半了應該趕快開會不要對不起人民都已經9點半了9點就應該開始開會了現在已經9點半了"},{"start":3660.668,"end":3668.096,"text":"拜託你們求求你們不要在那場了拜託你們求求你們求求民進黨不要"},{"start":3675.376,"end":3681.018,"text":"全國人民都在拜託你趕快上班9點31分9點31分9點32分02秒9點32分04秒9點32分07秒"},{"start":3696.442,"end":3719.572,"text":"民進黨的委員不認真上班民進黨的委員不按照程序進行民進黨的委員不讓大家開會民進黨的委員已經讓大家少了半個小時的時間延宕半個小時的會議時間民進黨的委員不按程序來民進黨的委員不民主民進黨的委員不按程序來"},{"start":3724.514,"end":3745.309,"text":"議事規則要不要送你們一個議事規則民進黨的委員我們要開會大家都準備好質詢都準備好開會請問登記1號陳季暉想不想要開會來請問登記2號盧憲宇想不想開會想請問3號林月琦想不想開會不想他不想"},{"start":3746.77,"end":3763.321,"text":"請問4號陳小智想不想開會?想!請問5號王一鳴想不想開會?想!請問6號邱振軍想不想開會?想!請問7號蘇清泉想不想開會?想!請問8號徐小新想不想開會?想!請問9號涂玄機想不想開會?想!請問10號黃秀光河想不想開會?不想!請問王振旭想不想開會?還不想!"},{"start":3772.747,"end":3799.832,"text":"劉建國想不想開會他不想所以已經延宕了30分鐘浪費全國人民30分鐘的時間大家都在看民進黨在鬧事今天召委按照程序走我們要按照程序走按照程序走按照程序走按照程序走按照程序走"},{"start":3800.492,"end":3822.493,"text":"按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!如果你們要換主席,你們可以表決啊!"},{"start":3823.554,"end":3849.001,"text":"不好意思各位好朋友看起來只有兩個人不願意開會其他人都已經準備好要質詢了已經浪費了人民半個小時的時間到底還要浪費多久大家都想要聽衛福部長的說法大家不想要聽你們在場浪費時間請黃秀珍委員提議請委員會做不要主要議事的進行"},{"start":3850.401,"end":3873.433,"text":"衛福部部長現在上台報告報告時間5分鐘誰在站著這邊前面就是在阻擋會議的進行請黃秀芳委員、林月清委員回座請衛福部部長上台報告衛福部部長上台報告請大家感受報告"},{"start":3875.194,"end":3876.675,"text":"我們都很想開會那個"},{"start":3901.229,"end":3911.194,"text":"學部長請上台護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會來 部長上台報告"},{"start":3930.084,"end":3950.865,"text":"部長上台報告來部長薛瑞仁部長請上台報告報告時間5分鐘你為什麼這邊可以放牌子你你有這樣子的嗎在開會時間這邊放牌子嗎你自己擔任召委請節制一下好不好來部長部長請上台報告"},{"start":3952.166,"end":3979.076,"text":"按照程序警主席我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理"},{"start":3981.097,"end":3981.497,"text":"全議問題優先處理"},{"start":4002.908,"end":4003.768,"text":"請部長上台!請部長上台!"},{"start":4035.725,"end":4038.108,"text":"我沒有我沒有我們要全贏小心我會受傷"},{"start":4054.46,"end":4055.541,"text":"全議問題優先處理!全議問題優先處理!"},{"start":4084.343,"end":4111.493,"text":"喂?喂?"},{"start":4114.605,"end":4140.174,"text":"不要模糊焦點在這樣搞下去全國的父母親只會越來越失望看到我們的執政黨不願意檢討現在在議事場上亂鬧大家不要模糊焦點我們想要解決問題我們要質詢民進黨只想要解決王育敏我們要解決問題我們要質詢再搞下去請全國的家長父母親都看清楚現在誰在拒絕"},{"start":4141.534,"end":4170.336,"text":"現在誰在拒絕檢討這個社安網的問題全國的父母親請看清楚我們需要解決問題而不是而不是模糊焦點我看全國全國人民都關心這個議題讓部長上台報告好嗎吳思瑤不要浪費這麼多人的時間好嗎部長時間很寶貴嘛主席也請你了吧"},{"start":4172.06,"end":4198.803,"text":"請主席先告現在請薛瑞元部長上台報告請薛瑞元部長上台報告請薛瑞元部長上台報告民進黨的委員不敢質詢衛福部長只敢護航只敢鬧場民進黨的委員不敢質詢只敢護航只敢鬧場"},{"start":4200.344,"end":4220.84,"text":"所有的暴力 民進黨的委員要負起最大責任為什麼為什麼在衛環委員會不敢質詢官員只敢鬧場為什麼衛環委員會不敢質詢官員只敢鬧場為什麼民進黨委員不敢質詢官員只敢鬧場這是什麼意思"},{"start":4221.6,"end":4229.086,"text":"民進黨的委員不要不敢質詢官員,只敢護航。民進黨的委員不要只敢護航,不敢質詢。"},{"start":4244.902,"end":4249.303,"text":"來,我們請衛福部部長上台報告,來好,休息五分鐘"},{"start":4265.267,"end":4269.61,"text":"我的麥克風已經被吳斯雅委員拉壞了聽不到聲音"},{"start":4289.822,"end":4290.042,"text":"那個部長部長"},{"start":4318.576,"end":4326.681,"text":"主席說休息五分鐘好不好大家協商一下好不好大家協商一下來大家都先各自回座可以嗎"},{"start":4330.857,"end":4355.285,"text":"不要再不要再不要再護航了各自迴避各自回座各自回座各自回座各自回座各自回座來拜託我們請我們委員同仁各自回座各自回座各自回座好各自回座好我們先各自回座好不好各自只要質詢部長的不要讓部長看戲好不好大家藍綠委員先坐嘛"},{"start":4384.136,"end":4386.737,"text":"希望等一下民進黨委員對部長火力也那麼強啦"},{"start":4400.441,"end":4410.887,"text":"我們等一下媒體朋友都看看藍綠委員對部長的質詢是不是像剛剛火力一樣那麼強拜託我們民進黨委員也展示一樣的火力監督執政黨"},{"start":4426.582,"end":4440.667,"text":"主席各位同仁要開會大家都要開會要解決問題才是正辦現在兩邊都來了嘛那剛才稍微協商一下我提出潛移問題什麼叫潛移問題當會議開始的時候沒有辦法開會就有潛移問題"},{"start":4445.39,"end":4470.958,"text":"那四年前的問題大家聽看看應該可以解決,我們大家冷靜一下,大家都要看那有什麼意見在執行樓去表達,要開會要解決問題這個是前提所以剛才跟副總召談過了第一個,剛才我看到蘇貞昌委員在這裡有幾個案子,就是報告不完整要退回在NCE"},{"start":4472.523,"end":4489.933,"text":"NC那一次齁,上禮拜交通委員會也是一樣就是說NC委員的報告,陳漾的報告百分之八十幾就雷同退回,但是陳琦恬怎麼處理?退回照退回,但是請各位參議員還是繼續報告,這是第一點,這樣才能夠進行嘛"},{"start":4492.975,"end":4514.208,"text":"第二點,當然大家各有立場,民進黨也備一個案,也就是說請主席回避,讓表決都到程序,表決輸了我們就繼續,我們今天趕快開會,這樣好不好?好不好?好,來來來,那第一案處理啊,有兩個案子嘛你只是發言而已好不好?"},{"start":4523.328,"end":4531.591,"text":"今天開會的目的,是要讓全國的國人能夠了解事實的真相,為不得全責,應並該讓全國國人"},{"start":4547.662,"end":4575.909,"text":"能夠聽到他們講清楚說明白也透過朝野今天的質詢能夠讓所有的答案能夠趨於更加的清楚今天會議主席王昭偉進行到現在程序上都沒有問題但是我們希望大家委員要理性剛剛柯總召是希望透過權宜問題以後我們能夠正式透過民主的方式來解決現在的問題"},{"start":4577.694,"end":4604.991,"text":"本席表示尊重但是也希望大家在開會人民有知的權利我們一定要尊重會議主席主持會議所以現在這個域名召委你可以按照這個議事程序我們本朱和諧希望問題能夠到達解決所以現在沒有關係我們就按照剛剛柯總統有提出一些相關的問題我們是不是跟"},{"start":4607.744,"end":4622.597,"text":"上週交通委員會一樣因為報告內容非常的不實在這個報告我們退回以後尋答照樣尋答另外找時間再來補報告這個問題我們請召委來來做會議主持"},{"start":4632.915,"end":4646.663,"text":"好 謝謝兩位總召就是剛剛的發言那我們現在就按剛剛的協商我們處理兩個權宜的提案第一案我們先處理退回衛福部今天的報告的提案來請宣讀"},{"start":4655.064,"end":4677.163,"text":"建請本會委員應退回本日衛生福利部所提交的報告。鑑於本委員會今日所排定之議程,真正目的細為檢討保母虐童致死一案的根本成因及提出檢討作為,但衛生福利部的報告卻僅有補充幼童被虐致死事件的服務時序表,對於當中各個階段,"},{"start":4678.964,"end":4687.146,"text":"竟出現一、各級政府、社政部門及社福機構的官僚態度導致出現社會安全網運作失靈的嚴重問題二、被虐幼童長期受虐情況下儘管明顯有被察覺異常卻無任何一個單位或機構出面保護任憑被虐幼童身處危險情境而導致不可挽回的悲劇等等根本性成因卻未見衛生福利部在報告中有任何的說明、論述及檢討"},{"start":4708.112,"end":4736.957,"text":"指敷衍交差地送來一份不及格的報告原為避免如此官僚不知檢討的態度成為本會邀請行政機關說明之常態進行本會應退回衛生福利部之報告提案人委員陳昭芝、蘇清泉、盧憲一、陳金輝、林德福宣讀完畢好那我們先來處理這一案退回報告請問委員有沒有意見沒有意見好通過好來第二"},{"start":4752.537,"end":4766.406,"text":"第二案基於立法委員行為法第22條請王玉明委員遵守利益迴避不要擔任今天會議主席提案人委員劉建國、黃秀芳、林月琴、王振旭、林淑芬宣讀完畢"},{"start":4768.271,"end":4776.036,"text":"好,來針對這個提案,大家有沒有意見?好來,有意見我們就表決處理表決,好來好來好來,我們就採那個點名表決針對民進黨提出來的這一案進行點名表決"},{"start":4799.104,"end":4824.931,"text":"陳金輝委員盧憲一委員林月琴委員陳昭芝委員邱振軍委員蘇清泉委員廖偉祥委員圖全吉委員黃秀芳委員王振旭委員"},{"start":4826.839,"end":4831.14,"text":"劉建國委員．林淑芬委員．陳穎委員本案反對7票贊成6票不通過那現在我們請衛福部部長針對今天的主題進行報告"},{"start":4860,"end":4883.117,"text":"時間5分鐘主席、各位委員、女士先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開的全體委員會議"},{"start":4886.25,"end":4896.063,"text":"本部曾邀列席報告深感榮幸之就強化社會安全網第二期計畫執行情形提出專案報告請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":4898.158,"end":4918.23,"text":"行政院在107年合併強化社會安全網第一期計畫推動以家庭為中心、以社區為基礎的服務模式。依據第一期計畫基礎的建構,也提出了第二期計畫,預計會投入407億漁業人及工部門各類專業人力,共7797人。"},{"start":4922.029,"end":4948.227,"text":"社安網第二期計畫在112年支援部件的情形社會福利服務中心一共部件達156處燃燒保護區域醫療整合中心部件有11家社區心理衛生中心部件達48處精神障礙者協作模式服務據點部件有36處充實地方政府各類專業人員達5452人"},{"start":4952.469,"end":4964.533,"text":"一百一十二年重要的推動成果是社福中心服務了五萬六千七百五十三戶的脆弱家庭服務後再被通報保護的比例是1.93%"},{"start":4968.534,"end":4980.428,"text":"集中篩判案中心受理35萬件保護性或脆弱家庭通報案件兒少保護區域醫療整合中心協助兒少虐待案件一共2958件"},{"start":4983.291,"end":5010.55,"text":"地方政府心理衛生中心合併多重議題的社區精神病人的服務涵蓋率達97.7%精神照護資訊管理系統第1、2級的個案服務涵蓋率達到99.4%要營個案服務管理的涵蓋率達95.3%那衛福部同意辦理的新進人員教育訓練一共有20梯次"},{"start":5011.471,"end":5034.137,"text":"一共有2186人完成訓練．對於社安網的策進作為．社安網強調以家庭為中心．以社區為基礎的服務模式．未來將積極深入基層倫理宣導．強化專業人員的教育訓練．充實各類的專業人力．此外中央會強化督導、協助、協調與查核的角色．"},{"start":5036.318,"end":5053.954,"text":"協助地方政府推動社安網的政策及相關服務網絡體系發展,另就重大的社會案件,議會建立檢討機制標準作為程序,中央地方七手合作共同面對制度面及執行面的困境,"},{"start":5056.465,"end":5078.39,"text":"有關於112年底出養兒童遭虐致死案,辦理情形及策進作為本案發生並不是被虐的流性兒童被社會安全網漏接而是已經接入社安網,卻仍然發生憾事"},{"start":5079.13,"end":5101.666,"text":"表示說社會安全網本身存在著設計規劃或者落實執行上面的缺陷因此今天藉這個機會我要代表衛生福利部為這樣子的缺陷導致一條生命的逝去向家屬和社會大眾致歉還沒還沒"},{"start":5104.38,"end":5128.369,"text":"那截至目前新北市政府、台北市政府和兒福聯盟的報告都還沒有送到衛福部檢察官的偵查也尚未終結所以衛福部掌握的資料也可能不完全但是依據現有的資料衛福部在3月15日召集雙北市的社會局、兒福聯盟的代表以及多位專家學者召開了檢討會議檢討會議的結論也會一併在今天的報告中呈現"},{"start":5134.68,"end":5159.532,"text":"衛福部在3月12日有召開內部檢討會議3月15日召開專案會議就中央、地方以及收出養媒合機構進行通盤檢討並就未來將強化服務流程與機制網絡單位與各級政府之間的合作調整各自的角色與任務使之更真明確"},{"start":5162.834,"end":5191.005,"text":"那檢討,通盤檢討,那的結果是如下第一個,收養評估的機制那這個流統它是被家屬要求是想要出養但是以現在的制度底下這個是不是適合要去出養而沒有其他解決的辦法這件事情是交給媒合機構的"},{"start":5192.465,"end":5212.147,"text":"這樣子會有利益衝突的問題因為出養如果完成了這個收養之後的話那收、媒合機構是依照他的服務進程會向收養家庭收取服務的費用所以這種情形的話會影響到出養必要性評估的結果也就是說"},{"start":5213.448,"end":5233.773,"text":"這些媒合機構可能傾向是同意出養而不會去思考是否還有對兒童更好的一些社會福利的一個協助的措施因此未來這個部分出養的必要性評估應該由地方政府來辦理"},{"start":5236.338,"end":5248.554,"text":"收養前的安置服務現行收養前的兒童安置是由媒合機構去決定收養的方式跟收養的機構並且由媒合機構支付這個費用"},{"start":5250.196,"end":5260.439,"text":"但是媒合機構本身可能缺乏照顧的資源,比方說這一次的兒福聯盟,事實上他本身並沒有照顧的機構,也沒有置辦的寄養家庭。"},{"start":5269.022,"end":5295.477,"text":"而且他的保姆只是有一個合作關係並不是長期的企業關係來可以對他來做長期的監督所以這一個由媒合機構去決定怎麼樣的方式來做安置以及選擇什麼樣的安置的機構那這個本身那可能會有問題"},{"start":5296.698,"end":5310.628,"text":"那也有可能因為經費的限制無法選擇對兒童最佳的照顧方式或者選擇這一個好的一個照顧人員為了確保兒少的最佳意義所以在收養前能獲得"},{"start":5311.949,"end":5332.507,"text":"在收養前能夠獲得妥善的照顧未來會要求地方政府依照委託安置的程序運用斜內安置資源來提供協助並且支付相關的費用如果地方的經費不足那中央將予以協助所以未來這一個費用的負擔"},{"start":5333.347,"end":5342.453,"text":"就不必交由媒合機構媒合機構也不用去考慮因為錢的問題然後去選擇不適當的照顧單位"},{"start":5348.646,"end":5368.575,"text":"那收養前的兒童安置,其實跟平常這個半日拖方式的情形是不一樣的因為如果交給保母,她是這一個半日拖那晚上接回去的時候,家庭是可以對兒童去進行檢視的"},{"start":5369.855,"end":5377.206,"text":"但是如果是採用全日托的方式那這個小孩子就全天交給這個保姆或者這個機構所以"},{"start":5380.137,"end":5402.859,"text":"就沒有機會去看這個小孩子的狀況所以針對這一種全日拖的這種方式的照顧模式的話那這個必須要更強的監督的機制所以我對於這一點本部會緊迫邀請各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率跟訂定相關的適應"},{"start":5404.988,"end":5423.383,"text":"現行居托人員接受委託照顧家外安置兒童適用的是直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則已經較一般居托人員的規範嚴謹資格條件、教育信任、訪視頻率等都比較嚴謹"},{"start":5427.847,"end":5454.163,"text":"但是考慮他這種照顧對象屬於特殊需求的兒少有必要比現在更為嚴謹的監督因此本部將召集專家及地方政府重新檢視室內人員的資格條件篩選機制的妥當性以及強化教育訓練完善入考的機制並研議較優的薪資待遇從本案來發現"},{"start":5458.826,"end":5476.812,"text":"收出量的媒合機構社工的方式可能不踏實、敏感度不足或是過度信賴、照顧人員的良善會避免受到各種惡意欺瞞的情形而失去對兒少保護的功能"},{"start":5477.372,"end":5503.661,"text":"一方面媒合機構要加強社工專業智能以及對兒童虐待的敏感度與辨識能力另外一方面本部將會邀請地方政府及專家學者延伸下列的事項媒合機構社工的例行、訪視頻率以及訪視時應該注意事項的列表也就是建立check-in list"},{"start":5504.942,"end":5531.142,"text":"訪視報告應該交給督導去審視．並且要報監督管理的地方主管機關．機構的督導或地方主管機關．如果對於這種訪視發現了有疑義的個案．那可能就必須要安排再訪視．除了全市對於沒有機構．第一線工作的加強之外．本部也將檢討"},{"start":5533.783,"end":5556.635,"text":"兒童及少年輸出養媒合服務者許可及管理辦法加強對於媒合機構本身的監督管理媒合機構對所屬工作人員應提供教育訓練及工作分配對合作機構或托育人員的監督以及確保對兒少及家屬服務品質的內訌機制也會一併檢討"},{"start":5559.844,"end":5580.889,"text":"第6從本案來發現新北市社會局接入本案主要是社福中心提供對家族在出養方面的服務那流同的照顧部分則都是由家屬自行委託保姆或交給兒福聯盟那臺北市社會局僅在"},{"start":5582.954,"end":5597.562,"text":"去年9月26日進行新收車訪試：最後兒童死亡後居車中心才接受到兒童通報：這中間社會局並沒有去做進一步的訪試："},{"start":5598.662,"end":5618.616,"text":"所以新北市沒有把流行兒童的情況通知臺北市臺北市的新收拾房子也沒有掌握到這個兒童是屬於脆弱家庭而且是需要全日收拾的對象所以有必要要加強房子跟關係那其次"},{"start":5619.497,"end":5645.189,"text":"居家托育人員的平時考核本部也將邀請地方社政機關來討論如何加強改善以避免不良分子混進來本部推動幼兒專責醫師制度以免付費的方式提供3歲以下幼兒一名專責醫師定期檢查兒童的發展狀況"},{"start":5653.363,"end":5668.38,"text":"推動開始的時候有邀請各地衛生局、社會局處來說明其中特別要求地方的社會局處對育有未滿3歲子女的脆弱家庭接受政府委託安置及出養"},{"start":5670.731,"end":5683.348,"text":"受監護的兒童,應該照冊給衛生主管機關,以利安排專責醫師專注兒童身心發展以及受照顧的狀況。從本案的情形來看,社會局處"},{"start":5684.75,"end":5685.65,"text":"本案涉及到兒童出收養"},{"start":5706.069,"end":5728.402,"text":"而受保護跟居家托育的管理三個面向那在地方的社會局處可能是不同單位來主辦牽涉不同面向的單一個案其實應該以個案為中心的原則單一組織、多方協力的方式來做處理那地方政府的分工不是這一個中央政府的權責但是"},{"start":5730.143,"end":5758.353,"text":"而這一方面的話地方政府要明確的這個跨科室案件分工合作的機制如果有涉及到縣市之間的爭議的話那再由中央來協助釐清檢討重大這個兒童事件的處理的機制這個部分的話根據本部重大兒童及少年虐待事件防治小組實施計畫地方政府接獲兒少因"},{"start":5759.153,"end":5777.147,"text":"遭受父母、監護人或其他實際照顧之人重大的虐待事件導致所有嚴重傷害及死亡的個案就必須要召開重大兒童及少年虐待事件防治小組的會議那地方政府個案檢討的結果應該在會議結束後兩週內提報給衛生福利部並建立決議事項的列管機制"},{"start":5785.473,"end":5802.149,"text":"其中所稱的其他實際照顧之人是否包括保姆,雖然涉及到本計劃跟直轄市縣市政府辦理居家托育人員疑似虐待或不當對待案件處理原則的兩者之間的適用問題,但"},{"start":5805.387,"end":5825.119,"text":"我們來看它的內容其實本案是沒有疑義的是屬於重大額內的事件是用哪一個程序只是內部分工的問題地方政府的社會局就可以決定其實並不需要請示中央但是當地方請示的時候本部相關單位應以"},{"start":5827,"end":5843.298,"text":"各案兒童委中心的原則思考來回答,而不是以確認機關內部分工作優先的、內部分工優先的思考方式來做處理。"},{"start":5844.679,"end":5860.523,"text":"中央、地方、相關人員處理態度的偏差本部應該負監督不周的責任在這裡向社會致勸並承諾將予以改善而未來屬於重大額內的這個主管的權責則應該以負責保護服務體系的主管單位為主責"},{"start":5866.324,"end":5879.201,"text":"以上這是我們的檢討報告有不盡之處請各位委員多以指教也請各位繼續對本部予以支持跟協助以上"},{"start":5879.858,"end":5883.581,"text":"好 謝謝部長的報告因為為什麼特別還讓部長報告照大家來講剛剛已經通過了這樣的一個退回報告事實上是可以不需要讓部長再報告直接進入詢答但是大家可以看得出來剛剛主席特別給部長"},{"start":5896.673,"end":5896.693,"text":"委員．"},{"start":5927.053,"end":5939.764,"text":"發生這麼不幸的額虐事件從中央到地方到承辦的民間團體大家通通都有責任那我們要防止下一個額虐悲劇再發生就是大家一起嚴肅的來共同面對"},{"start":5942.446,"end":5958.834,"text":"跟檢討我想這個才會對未來防止下一個額略悲劇更有意義所以我希望本會特別是衛環委員會的委員應該是政治性最低專業度最高的委員大家就聚焦在如何檢討社會安全網"},{"start":5961.175,"end":5990.367,"text":"好好的來討論那上午這樣子的一個政治攻防真的是不必要而且浪費大家一個小時的時間那我們現在就進入今天的詢答本會委員詢答時間8加2分鐘列席委員5加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息5分鐘"},{"start":5991.287,"end":6009.728,"text":"原則上11點半處理臨時提案．如有提案請盡早提出．以利益事進行．有關本次會議各項書面資料．均列入記錄．刊登公報．現在請登記第一位的陳金輝委員發言．抱歉耽誤你一個多小時時間"},{"start":6015.714,"end":6024.584,"text":"主席．各位委員同事．各位官員．還有各位媒體朋友．大家早安 大家好有請部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":6029.253,"end":6048.826,"text":"這段話是2020年蔡總統宣布第二期社安網所說的就職典禮的發言稿他提到我們要讓第一線的社工能量提升改善他們的工作環境讓社工能夠深入最基層"},{"start":6049.827,"end":6079.218,"text":"把過去社會安全網沒有接觸的人都找回來我們也不應該把責任全部推給醫療部門、個別法官、司法和行政部門應該要檢討制度結果我們很遺憾的發現到今天過了4年我們的社工能量還是沒有提升到處缺社工結果這件事事發大家是獵巫啊、醫師啊、社工師啊等等"},{"start":6081.974,"end":6095.544,"text":"這個剛剛部長有增加了非常多的篇幅本席也非常感動但是昨天列出來的檢討報告居然800字出現了11次地方"},{"start":6097.947,"end":6125.572,"text":"看到的時候真的很難過但剛才部長已經跟全國民眾還有凱凱的家屬道歉了我在這邊有一個小小的提議因為我也身為三個小孩的媽媽不知道部長如果在沒有媒體關注的狀況下你是否願意親自跟這位小男童的家屬道歉並且安慰他還有提供後續的安置還有你後續的做法呢"},{"start":6126.668,"end":6147.22,"text":"這沒有問題是 謝謝部長 謝謝部長今天願意道歉因為現在網路上已經有幾萬人聯署馬上破幾萬要聯署虐童致死可見人民對這件事有多麼生氣全國更是各地有民眾主動想要送花"},{"start":6148.274,"end":6173.017,"text":"跟這個凱凱致哀所以我們今天委員會召開最重要的意義就是我們應該要一起協助部長把這個社會安全網補起來因為您才是把每一絲每一絲的線補起來的人我們醫生、社工單位所有的地方政府都是這個網的一條線而已啊所以您才是最重要的角色"},{"start":6174.11,"end":6187.013,"text":"你有講到說14號說我們要同步制定托育專法盼本會期能送入立法院我想問這個會期剩下兩個月啦"},{"start":6188.73,"end":6199.853,"text":"您在這個會期真的可以送入立法院嗎?比較精確來講的話應該是送到行政院因為經過了這個專家會議討論之後的話我們會必須要我們的法規會再考慮這個法律的這個文字"},{"start":6209.335,"end":6231.081,"text":"那最後定案了才送那個行政院所以應該這個會期之內我們會我們人工生殖法已經搞兩年了還沒完成你現在說要做這個托育專法我不知道是不是就你法律專業的立場有什麼特別的考量您覺得現在我們的兒權法已經包含托嬰中心育兒機構還有保姆的規範都在裡面了"},{"start":6233.462,"end":6258.885,"text":"提出專法的意思是說你要把現在相關的條文、執法全部刪掉然後另立一個托育專法這是一個大工程欸我們的棟現在都還沒補好週末又有新的案件發生欸新的案件那個如果委員詢問我們再回答那這一個部分其實這個托育專法跟兒權法的修正我們已經討論兩年了所以已經差不多所以你很有信心這個會期"},{"start":6260.406,"end":6283.867,"text":"能夠把他送到行政院去做審查好,我們會緊盯您的進度另外呢,我也獲得本黨20幾位的委員共同連署我們也要即刻來提出兒少全法修正草案還有保姆定期的評鑑制度化本席也在這邊希望"},{"start":6284.768,"end":6294.279,"text":"衛福部可以在一個月內提出相關的研究報告還有預計實施的辦法還有你們大概修改這個托育專法修法的方向還有預計的進度"},{"start":6300.711,"end":6320.765,"text":"這一個部分的話,因為兒少權法這一次的修正很重要的一個是要符合這個CRC的一些就兒權公約的這一個部分那對於這一個做托育,尤其是像保姆還有托育的機構的管理的這部分因為如果仍然放在兒權法裡面的話,那他可能就會"},{"start":6321.766,"end":6338.404,"text":"會議"},{"start":6338.524,"end":6364.562,"text":"好 我們再來看109年衛福部曾經提出一個優化兒童醫療照護計畫當時呢這個連行政院院長都說我們5歲以下兒童的死亡率這個數字讓他感到非常的丟臉他自己公開在媒體上承認我們跟其他的OECD國家比起來啊別人是1.7 2.4"},{"start":6368.08,"end":6368.681,"text":"然後我們來看我們4.7、4.6當時你提出這個兒童醫療照護計畫幫自己訂了KPI你希望110、111、121、113是逐年下降結果呢我們發現實際的數據110、111是"},{"start":6394.066,"end":6416.665,"text":"4.8、5.1你的這個照護計畫是出了什麼事情?報告委員,這裡有兩個部分像委員這一張slide所顯示的右下方那邊新生兒的死亡率這部分的話有兩種算法一種是把22週裡面的也算進來所以現在再講4.8、5.1是這一個包括在裡面的"},{"start":6417.085,"end":6432.773,"text":"對但是如果把這個扣掉的話那就會稍微減少一點不過我們但還是沒有到你的KPI阿對阿所以我們在檢討的這一個部分的話第一個我們會我們已經在著手這一個所謂的兒童的"},{"start":6435.215,"end":6461.873,"text":"新生兒及嬰兒的這個死因的回溯的這個計畫我們想要找出可避免的這個死亡的原因所以這個案例我們今天討論的這個案例你看你上面寫說期待降低死亡率減少兒童可預防可避免的死亡我們這個案例算不算你提到的可預防可避免的死亡這個是深切檢討對"},{"start":6463.114,"end":6463.614,"text":"我們來看明別的表格"},{"start":6485.609,"end":6513.35,"text":"你把其他的策略目標還分成比如說兒童重難罕症疾病培訓兒童重症運送專業團隊未滿3歲而有專責醫師的照護推展脆弱家庭育兒指導服務好你列了這四項來我們看實際有達到你的KPI就是未滿3歲這兒童有專責醫師的照護其他你想要重難罕症疾病的這個"},{"start":6514.491,"end":6534.074,"text":"平台想要113年18個實際只有8個兒童重症運送專業團隊想要113年4個實際只有3個好你會把自己的KPI設成30%表示你深深的有發現其實醫療資源有限醫療資源不均"},{"start":6534.975,"end":6547.254,"text":"你這個全國復開率你自己也知道資源配置不太合理好 你說你希望這些翠家的育兒都可以有專責醫師那你為什麼要把第三項跟第四項分開"},{"start":6549.52,"end":6566.793,"text":"你應該是推廣催弱家庭育兒指導服務加上有專責醫師的照顧啊不是嗎現在這個育兒專責醫師的照顧的話我們希望是每一位不管他的背景是什麼每一位小孩子都有這樣子一個專責醫師所以我們這個設定的KPI30%那實際上是已經有超過了"},{"start":6572.877,"end":6587.302,"text":"但是對於退家的這個部分的話那是在裡面的另外一小塊因為這一些的話可能就會缺乏所謂的這個家屬那他的參與所以這個部分有特別要去做處理沒錯來我們可以看這個表"},{"start":6589.583,"end":6610.196,"text":"這個你都知道了部長也都知道了我們一個一般的幼兒需要加入專責醫師家長要上網先查詢還要再帶著手冊去填寫家長同意書來媒合基本上可以做到這件事情的家長就是不會在我們社會安全網之外嘛所以我們來看你的表"},{"start":6612.011,"end":6640.578,"text":"你說109年你就開始把社政還有衛政拉在一起結果你剛剛自己也在你的口頭報告承認說宣導不利嘛 對不對結果社會局跟衛生局他們都對於這件事情不太清楚你雖然109年你說你109年有做可是你根本沒有制度化也沒有系統化啊我去問基層的社工、兒科醫師他們都說"},{"start":6641.498,"end":6659.238,"text":"這半年來才知道而且經過這個新聞他們壓力超大因為每一個案主都去問他們說我的專責醫師呢你都還沒幫我找專責醫師所以你如果沒有制度化跟系統化你只有宣導這件事情我們怎麼把這個退家的人納進來嘛"},{"start":6661.08,"end":6687.951,"text":"我覺得這個利益非常好因為兒科醫師現在都已經不夠了全國都已經不夠了可是我們不是應該要先從接不住的人開始一定要注意他們都有被照顧到嗎這一個其實我們算過那如果說一位兒科醫師平均來照顧這一個有200個個案的話事實上我們大概只需要大概3000名的兒科醫師"},{"start":6688.351,"end":6711.495,"text":"我們現在3777兒科醫師所以人數是夠的可是我們城鄉分佈非常不均所以在那個兒科醫師比較缺乏的地方我們會交給衛生所有衛生所的醫師不論他是哪一個專科的都可以來做這件事情可是我等一下跟你說基層醫師在反映什麼我們看一下你自己畫的圖我們現在這個圖的問題出在哪裡你看"},{"start":6716.055,"end":6739.594,"text":"你只有把一般幼兒一般新生兒還有高風險孕產婦所生的新生兒列到幼兒專責醫師最後呢你發現翠家的因子還是醫生自己要發現或是衛生局自己要發現而不是從源頭就把他們找出來嘛所以你就從這個破洞我們這個案例就從這個破洞掉下來啦"},{"start":6741.341,"end":6768.674,"text":"對 所以這一次我們的深刻檢討就是這一點一定是未來要去改善的就這個圖我幫你畫好了社政跟那個衛生之間的聯繫是不夠的但你要把它制度化你要把它制度化比如說你這通報以後多久以內誰去訪查兒科醫師要怎麼訪查嗎這個兒科醫師要做什麼這些SOP是有的現在只是說社政單位沒有把這個個案的名冊交給這個衛生單位"},{"start":6770.895,"end":6793.457,"text":"我們仔細的比較了一下15號上個禮拜五你跟雙北市政府開完公私會議還有給我們衛環委員會的書面報告你說要指定專責醫師的這兩個族群居然有一點小小的落差你跟雙北的公私會議你剛才說你要落實衛政跟社政你跟雙北的公私會議說是"},{"start":6795.299,"end":6803.004,"text":"政府安置的3歲以下兒童結果你給我們的報告範圍更大是脆弱家庭也把他納入"},{"start":6805.195,"end":6824.409,"text":"這個部分的話講的是說不需要家長同意書因為他的家屬是已經這個支持系統薄弱你還要找他的家長的話有一點困難所以你的意思是說政府安置的不用家長同意書很多脆弱家庭找不到家長你不把他列進來喔"},{"start":6825.57,"end":6846.609,"text":"所以要直接就列進來,不必去經過他的同意的啦是,是,好這邊基層的聲音,我這邊也要反映一下基層的聲音我很多同學是小兒科嘛,他說第一你本來一班幼兒一年是500點嘛,你把他調到1000點很好"},{"start":6847.677,"end":6861.668,"text":"可是你現在你看發生這麼大的重大事件這些脆家的小孩都要交給他們照顧他們當然只是其中裡面的一條線第一你點數不用提升嗎他不用比一般兒童更多嗎有啊不是應該三倍五倍嗎是比那個高"},{"start":6871.763,"end":6893.888,"text":"這個事情是這樣子的第一個就是說我們把崔家這一個兒童放進來只是讓他identify出來說他手上有這樣子的一個小孩子如果沒有identify出來這些小孩子到他的診所去看病的時候你沒有給他發現說這個有這一個可能是額虐的話這個也"},{"start":6895.808,"end":6905.828,"text":"本來就是醫師本來就是所謂的義務通報人員對他還是有一定的責任的啦是他如果是被指定的話他還要加上一年訪視兩次欸"},{"start":6907.671,"end":6912.252,"text":"我希望您還是可以關懷這些基層醫師因為他們願意納入你的分級醫療看你是不是考慮也把大型的醫療機構也納入這目前已經要把他們納入了"},{"start":6933.757,"end":6961.473,"text":"因為對他們來說這也是多餘的行政負擔因為他們去訪視等等他們還是要提交報告目前參與的這個計畫的那醫院的部分是118家然後基層的是916家那其中的話醫師的部分的話那醫院的話是395位然後基層的話1481位所以這醫院的也有關於這些特殊家庭的點數我們之後再來講"},{"start":6962.794,"end":6992.095,"text":"剛也有花很多的口頭的篇幅去討論說我們保姆的平台這是你們的保姆平台也請你們有空的時候自己用用看如果我是一個家長我要去找我目前這個保姆到底是合法還是違法好我們從左邊進去齁這些資訊啊並不是很統一有人放照片有人不放照片好但他就代表說我今天搜尋到的保姆是合法保姆"},{"start":6992.813,"end":7016.603,"text":"我今天想要知道我這個保姆是不是違法居然是連到違反而效法專區叫我們自己慢慢撈我在撈的時候嚇死了只要是有做過這個未成年犯罪等等性侵性行為全部都列在那裡面跟保姆全部混在一起"},{"start":7018.01,"end":7031.332,"text":"那現在家長其實最關心的是什麼?家長最關心的是我這個保姆有沒有過一些賦品嘛等等的嘛而你就是把他跟這些違反兒校法專區全部混在一起這根本不是家長想看的資訊啊"},{"start":7033.45,"end":7061.048,"text":"包委員這一個部分是依在法律規定我們必須要公告的項目那至於委員說到說對於保姆那他的一個搜尋的平台這我們會來努力對而且你也應該把他自己獨立成一項嘛對啦就是要分開啦好我希望今天大家從各個層面我們都可以把這個網字再補得更好一點這也是最後想要提出來的建議好嗎謝謝部長"},{"start":7062.429,"end":7082.7,"text":"建議不會越來越大動建議應該是越來越玩命因為這件事情所以我們今天許多委員都會提出各種建議好謝謝部長好我們謝謝陳金輝委員的一個質詢等一下盧憲一委員質詢結束我們休息5分鐘接下來我們請盧憲一委員進行質詢"},{"start":7095.731,"end":7119.13,"text":"主席請部長好請薛部長委員好部長薛部長我們兩個都是醫生發生這樣的事情真的是很遺憾而且是三個月的時間讓他的小小的生命沒有辦法繼續長大"},{"start":7120.939,"end":7130.61,"text":"我們看了那個第二期計畫投入了400多億我們政府到底做了什麼那我先問一個問題保姆這一詞是從什麼時候開始講的保姆這個單字是從什麼時候開始講的"},{"start":7137.806,"end":7153.272,"text":"法務這一個詞是從禮記就有了就是西元500年、600年就有了他的位階是在老師、慈母第三個位階也就是說其實這個工作是非常重要的那我想問你第一個問題"},{"start":7154.973,"end":7166.049,"text":"這個流行保姆他的精神鑑定或者是精神報告有沒有啊這個沒有沒有所以我希望以後如果你要成為保姆你的精神或者心智的鑑定要有"},{"start":7167.578,"end":7169.579,"text":"反社會人格異常．全面性通盤評估"},{"start":7187.023,"end":7207.057,"text":"如果說確定要當保姆的話應該要做一天兩天的一個所謂的精神鑑定啊因為那個我覺得這是很需要來做不然一而再再而三發生這樣的事情是好沒有關係我們努力看看好不好不然你花了那麼多407億還是沒有進步的話你要去想的問題到底出在哪裡啊"},{"start":7209.023,"end":7226.521,"text":"第二個問題就是說他為何轉換那麼多保姆從出養一到出養四?他這個問題怎麼來的?可以告訴我嗎?這當然是就是說一開始的時候那是那個家屬自己去找的,去找的保姆"},{"start":7227.242,"end":7243.416,"text":"然後當他這個要出養的時候我的意思是1、2、3都沒有問題嗎?1、2、3的時間都不是很...1、2的時間如果他們照顧得很好為什麼會換到第4?所以我們就針對這一點去做研議就為什麼要這個因為轉到兒虎聯盟之後兒虎聯盟堅持說一定要換保姆這件事情"},{"start":7254.226,"end":7269.187,"text":"我看到是9月1號的時候就簽約了然後9月25號兒童第一次到保姆﹑兒童第一次到保姆家訪視他寫了說他有預清"},{"start":7271.061,"end":7292.411,"text":"於清對我們醫生來講是非常大的事情而且是在臉部在頭部那是不是應該要只要想到這一個話他是不是應該要做全身的一個照相以後要有這樣子一個insight好不好所以這部分就是我剛剛在口頭報告裡面有提到的我們必須要把check in list他1號簽約的25號就有於清了對不對"},{"start":7294.15,"end":7317.542,"text":"然後26號就社會局就收案反思完成然後到23號再過一個月的時候他說叫安靜叫安靜如果就我的理解來講如果如果是叫安靜的話是不是就是比較澎湃易碎的啊這個是不是已經是高危險群的這個如果就醫生來看的話也就是已經是高度懷疑他被虐待嗎不是嗎"},{"start":7320.228,"end":7346.043,"text":"當然這個社工的專業裡面也許沒有辦法去判斷這一個他到底有沒有看到我是覺得不太可能加上那個第11月的話是牙齒掉這件事情他有提出來那是被他打到牙齒沒有掉下來還是他看到他的牙齒掉下來我是覺得這個暴力跟非暴力的因素這個時候就可以去知道了那已經是死前一個月的事情"},{"start":7346.783,"end":7351.704,"text":"這目前檢調正在調查到底他是不是有去看事實上有沒有去看那怎麼樣看這是檢調現在調查但是"},{"start":7371.748,"end":7398.171,"text":"縱然這個是社工的這個訪視報告如他所述的話以上我剛才講的重點好不好部長就是說我們在做訪視的時候你看到這些比較異常的東西你就要高度懷疑不要再信任那個讓他受傷的人而且這個訪視報告應該在他的上級的督導應該也必須要好那我提出這個疑問為什麼事發三個月之後才會才有檢討機制"},{"start":7400.391,"end":7403.533,"text":"所以是地方政府的錯?是嗎?是地方政府的錯嗎?"},{"start":7426.533,"end":7429.337,"text":"所以到底是哪一個環節是衛福部還是縣市政府還是兒福聯盟這三個"},{"start":7443.692,"end":7469.423,"text":"先是政府沒有做這個檢討報告這是確定的到現在為止也都報告還沒出來那第三個問題是我們按照這樣的一個問題呈現的話你的訪視制度有沒有馬上要改善還是說你有沒有你心裡面的構想對啊這個部分的話當然對於一些比較特殊的個案的話那訪視的制度必須要改善訪視頻率以及現在參與訪視的有哪些專業人員"},{"start":7472.425,"end":7479.072,"text":"目前的話主要還是社工的人員只有社工嗎?現在專責醫師制度不是也有嗎?現在有專責醫師以後只有社工跟護理人員不用訪視嗎?"},{"start":7490.585,"end":7509.293,"text":"護理人員那個是進入到專責醫師的時候那是多久一次醫生是半年一次但是一個月一次是說一定要把小孩子帶到如果因為車車勞頓能不能增加視訊的"},{"start":7511.028,"end":7536.889,"text":"當然是可以因為三歲以下兒童應該沒有所謂的裸體權嘛就是就把他全部打開然後讓一會兒人員看一下可不可以當然可以是因為我覺得這個如果有這一項的話應該這件事情就不會發生了我們上次有問過署長齁進捐署長嗎對我有問問你說那個會捐社會問你說社工目前的比例是多少人口"},{"start":7541.66,"end":7555.491,"text":"社工的比例我們現在常常在講醫生服務的人口比是700多比一二社工呢?因為社工齁,社工他有分好幾個這種不同的業務的區域那如果是按照現在的你知道的"},{"start":7557.591,"end":7561.533,"text":"因為我們總覺得社工不夠社工的待遇不好"},{"start":7591.43,"end":7614.977,"text":"整體性的問題當然要改善他的服務內容以及他的待遇等等這些都是我們要努力的方向那我們在講到他的那個所謂檢討措施裡面有一個就是說你們要加強訪視重點跟訪視員的敏感度那敏感度你很會講那什麼叫做敏感度你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":7616.741,"end":7623.289,"text":"就如同剛剛委員提到的他看到了一個包那這個就要依視到那你要怎麼考試?"},{"start":7625.25,"end":7646.976,"text":"這不是考試的問題,而是...對啊,所以就是因為你沒有考試,你沒有增加變成一個它的勾肌或者是說稽查它的重點,它就不會有敏感度,永遠都不會有對,所以這部分就是我們未來在努力的方向,也就是它看到什麼東西,然後它就必須要意識到...所以那個就是敏感度,所以你既然知道你就要把它列入你要訓練的一個重點,不是嗎?對,對"},{"start":7655.305,"end":7683.351,"text":"因為剛剛那個我們的經費委員一直在講都是地方政府的錯所以我就不知道該怎麼讓你說剛剛我的口頭報告裡面其實對中央政府應該負的責任我也都提到了好 那我們剛剛講到死亡率的問題就是我們現在國人的小朋友的話大概還是在千分之2.8還是千分之4點多 對不對那我們原住民的話是一倍喔那我們一倍的地方"},{"start":7685.357,"end":7710.612,"text":"我們又是比較交通弱勢然後醫療資源也比較缺乏所以這以後在建立裝折制度的時候或者說仿試的時候要多鎖一些變革或者說權宜也就是說讓他們更方便讓照顧的人或者說被評估的人或者是這些社工不要疲於奔命、舟車勞頓因為每一個村莊有的時候都是一兩個小時以上的距離好不好因為我們的死亡率高一倍"},{"start":7712.008,"end":7712.729,"text":"謝謝盧委員的質詢 現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":7749.304,"end":7749.504,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7776.558,"end":7777.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7810.645,"end":7811.206,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8213.592,"end":8218.655,"text":"好我們繼續委員的發言質詢接下來我們請林月琴委員有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜齁我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱齁"},{"start":8241.772,"end":8269.345,"text":"那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說"},{"start":8270.435,"end":8270.935,"text":"而謀不是第一次"},{"start":8294.941,"end":8318.855,"text":"這事實上是在108年所以我們到底還有多少個開開108年新竹縣的陪陪在保母家離開了一樣是兒母安置的孩子那才兩個多月孩子除了感冒還有不明的頭部那因為是弱勢家庭那當初兒母也表示這是合格保母之前有帶過小孩最後呢反而是拿捐款的人錢來賠償"},{"start":8321.912,"end":8326.838,"text":"所以這陳情人告訴我說他的狀況這樣他是弱勢家庭他根本無力對抗一個機構那"},{"start":8330.584,"end":8354.871,"text":"當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案持熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在"},{"start":8355.351,"end":8377.896,"text":"一樣安置在保母家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保母家的。如果安置持續一直有額略的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?"},{"start":8379.006,"end":8386.312,"text":"跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說"},{"start":8387.352,"end":8387.792,"text":"對,我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層,如果"},{"start":8416.107,"end":8444.1,"text":"地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市"},{"start":8445.711,"end":8470.79,"text":"和我們運用居托人員家外安置的處理原則本來就是要找到依居家托育保姆登記管理辦法裡邊要找到所謂的訪視輔導兩號來看這個4月17聽說這個保姆也是誰是兒盟叫他去登記的他過去本來就沒有想帶小孩他110年就7月16號就拿到登記證了然後"},{"start":8475.593,"end":8500.667,"text":"9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案那"},{"start":8502.148,"end":8522.647,"text":"劉憲保姆有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊那在機構送孩子去安置有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾兩邊都不互通不管是文山居托中心甚至額蒙的這個社工完全不互通各自做各自的"},{"start":8524.434,"end":8545.353,"text":"也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視"},{"start":8550.902,"end":8575.494,"text":"整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置那為什麼新北市評估再不過"},{"start":8577.435,"end":8599.422,"text":"他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎"},{"start":8602.819,"end":8622.875,"text":"所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定這是第一點所以也要問部長未來怎麼督管地方政府"},{"start":8623.277,"end":8651.468,"text":"否則阿嬤本來就是只是缺錢她可以照顧那她甚至委託安置就OK的可是卻強行說要來出養就送到所謂出養前的安置那再來就是第二個在出養等待期為什麼不繼續安置原照顧的周姓保母她非常符合法規喔依照你們的法規她是符合的那新北市如果要去做這樣的決定的時候誰又可以去管控如果大家都不管控的時候最後就是最倒楣的就是孩子"},{"start":8652.108,"end":8676.67,"text":"那我們2014年就簽訂兒權公約國內法化的時候怎麼會沒有大家都沒有看到不管是機構不管是地方政府從頭到尾到底看到孩子的權益了嗎等待期的安置條文在哪裡這麼多年了沒有看到跟流性保母為什麼兒母講說他跟流性保母簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼"},{"start":8677.571,"end":8679.151,"text":"我希望中央真的要針對地方政府"},{"start":8705.748,"end":8733.515,"text":"沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題"},{"start":8735.695,"end":8750.592,"text":"所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出樣等待期的法源依據"},{"start":8751.721,"end":8766.326,"text":"不是誰說了算 要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是 郡公院也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的"},{"start":8766.966,"end":8790.482,"text":"那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們要還這兩個孩子的命一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間"},{"start":8791.283,"end":8797.585,"text":"我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心"},{"start":8815.478,"end":8839.823,"text":"所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆"},{"start":8841.072,"end":8866.993,"text":"一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以"},{"start":8868.157,"end":8897.108,"text":"部長也要問的是你怎麼讓地方不踢皮球事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做兩個縣市都有沒有做的地方比方說第一個新北市這邊的話對於出養的決定他沒有去所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽"},{"start":8898.075,"end":8900.941,"text":"可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?"},{"start":8902.127,"end":8930.537,"text":"所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以"},{"start":8930.97,"end":8959.891,"text":"法規已經很清楚了所以也請你督促各個未來各級機關不要再互相推諉該怎麼做就怎麼做在選擇保姆的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保姆這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保姆為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保姆為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去"},{"start":8960.371,"end":8985.69,"text":"這都是要檢討的衛福部本來就有發函有訂定原則又發函那為什麼縣市政府為什麼不督管所以未來可不定定一個相關辦法罰則否則很明確的5月31號就新聞給各地方政府了他們不做到底中央到底要怎麼還是一樣沒有辦法選擇好合格的保姆沒有辦法進行好的防治來防堵下一個生命受損所以這也請部長"},{"start":8987.032,"end":9004.413,"text":"針對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講喔從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子請盡速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據"},{"start":9005.151,"end":9023.806,"text":"還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待其可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?"},{"start":9025.526,"end":9050.749,"text":"尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的"},{"start":9051.329,"end":9072.538,"text":"主責機構所以從去年12月發生剛剛部長也報告到現在機構報告都還沒交到這邊真的讓我們覺得過去一直講說要捍衛孩子權益的單位那過去的董事在執行的時候也坐在這邊可是竟然沒有去捍衛我們孩子的權益所以請盡速把報告送上來以上"},{"start":9076.59,"end":9082.253,"text":"好謝謝林月琴委員的質詢接下來我們請陳昭芝委員質詢主席再請部長謝謝休息一下好部長請"},{"start":9098.052,"end":9113.947,"text":"部長直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說觀看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告"},{"start":9114.868,"end":9131.077,"text":"而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊"},{"start":9134.359,"end":9157.113,"text":"大概在這個週末是大概也不得一刻休息了但是部長我還是覺得您今天的報告還是比較選擇性的對於地方機構跟媒合機構的檢討就是說對於中央機構的部分中央主管機關我等一下會有一些事實的部分就是說中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的"},{"start":9159.312,"end":9179.073,"text":"部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號"},{"start":9181.754,"end":9206.801,"text":"但是在25天的時候,這個托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊"},{"start":9208.061,"end":9236.256,"text":"就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診"},{"start":9237.857,"end":9266.3,"text":"所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊"},{"start":9267.08,"end":9290.956,"text":"是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了"},{"start":9291.957,"end":9309.856,"text":"當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事"},{"start":9310.757,"end":9331.365,"text":"到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來"},{"start":9332.365,"end":9355.117,"text":"那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司"},{"start":9360.08,"end":9382.626,"text":"部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計劃因為上開計劃講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人他有孽兒的事件部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?"},{"start":9385.276,"end":9402.684,"text":"報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的"},{"start":9405.294,"end":9430.052,"text":"內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一棟大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號"},{"start":9433.615,"end":9447.627,"text":"社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文"},{"start":9448.786,"end":9473.799,"text":"部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實調如果是牽涉到社會局的"},{"start":9474.759,"end":9501.535,"text":"局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我再告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說"},{"start":9502.395,"end":9527.893,"text":"他們是昨天才知道這件事3月12號早上他們告訴我他們也是昨天才知道這件事就是說媒體報了才知道這件事但是前一章我已經談到了事實上12月27號社會局已經因為保護司推託他就已經跟社會跟這個社家屬報告了但是社家屬人3月12號到我辦公室跟我說他昨天才知道這件事部長"},{"start":9530.478,"end":9558.03,"text":"事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道"},{"start":9560.026,"end":9586.59,"text":"他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他"},{"start":9587.15,"end":9613.386,"text":"在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎"},{"start":9617.177,"end":9645.077,"text":"我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這個部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長了解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎"},{"start":9646.835,"end":9670.723,"text":"這個我是不是可以請李志來回答?實在是聽不下去了啦,看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁,因為我們要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近臺北市來通報兩個疑似的案件他也會希望要先做釐清那因為這個過程當中我們是沒有得到最後的一個釐清他是不是個額內案件那當然是我們有一個責任就是說我們同仁應該去追那個進度"},{"start":9676.185,"end":9703.638,"text":"這個部分我們也對這個部分沒有做到督導的部分也保釋掉錢市長但是保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的這個行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三年三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的一個負責"},{"start":9706.019,"end":9722.367,"text":"以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧就算說交給這個檢調再做調查中請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?"},{"start":9731.754,"end":9744.551,"text":"這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的"},{"start":9746.271,"end":9753.954,"text":"應該是以個案為中心以小孩子的利益為基礎我是替你們擔心的因為這些發言不符合上開條件這個屬於要跨科室的再討論這個以後會變成經典之言"},{"start":9761.397,"end":9781.536,"text":"委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這一個還沒有歸到這一個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以"},{"start":9782.679,"end":9800.255,"text":"同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革"},{"start":9800.996,"end":9819.441,"text":"那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了"},{"start":9820.202,"end":9835.782,"text":"過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚"},{"start":9836.263,"end":9859.365,"text":"我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊"},{"start":9861.527,"end":9879.684,"text":"沒有保護到他啦,但是我對於這一個剛剛委員提到保護社家屬這一部分,我已經做了一些解釋部長,我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個肥肥的這個嬰兒,甜甜的這個嬰兒肥,還有甜甜的笑容"},{"start":9880.985,"end":9897.861,"text":"我真的很慶幸說他在短短的一生當中還曾經有過一段這麼快樂的時光我也很慶幸他生命中至少還有一段這樣的時間我們一起為這個孩子祝福希望他往生後會得到安息部長謝謝"},{"start":9901.052,"end":9924.962,"text":"好 我們謝謝陳昭芝委員的質詢那等一下邱政軍委員發言完畢之後我們處理臨時提案那先預告今天中午我們會12點半左右會休息30分鐘用餐因為今天會比較冗長也要讓官員有時間稍微用餐休息好 那現在來那個麻煩邱委員代主席由我發言"},{"start":9935.161,"end":9937.883,"text":"是,我們請王委員育敏質詢好,謝謝主席我們是不是請部長"},{"start":9970.086,"end":9990.59,"text":"委員好部長好 部長你也辛苦了部長我想請教一下這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件12月發生那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎同事跟我報告的時候我才知道"},{"start":9991.533,"end":10019.395,"text":"本席也是我也是3月11號看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括俄府聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況"},{"start":10020.095,"end":10044.833,"text":"你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討"},{"start":10045.874,"end":10061.801,"text":"那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了"},{"start":10062.501,"end":10063.501,"text":"的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任"},{"start":10080.686,"end":10095.627,"text":"是但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再度發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表"},{"start":10096.749,"end":10124.206,"text":"呃……呃……"},{"start":10126.161,"end":10131.225,"text":"在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件"},{"start":10142.814,"end":10160.298,"text":"但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數"},{"start":10160.618,"end":10176.827,"text":"也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少"},{"start":10179.548,"end":10207.421,"text":"那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家"},{"start":10207.961,"end":10232.286,"text":"第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了"},{"start":10232.506,"end":10244.342,"text":"每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法這個"},{"start":10249.554,"end":10272.421,"text":"一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的"},{"start":10277.859,"end":10296.536,"text":"委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說,這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?"},{"start":10297.296,"end":10315.17,"text":"所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些"},{"start":10316.771,"end":10337.899,"text":"就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果全者不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來"},{"start":10340.881,"end":10368.379,"text":"要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把大家整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣"},{"start":10369.119,"end":10388.384,"text":"在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、房市頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題那就我來看寄養家庭其實過去"},{"start":10389.324,"end":10418.281,"text":"施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系坦白講是比較完整的他是第一個月是每週訪第二個月是隔週訪第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說同樣都是需要被安置的孩子在寄養系統相對完整但是在這個居家家外安置他就相對沒有那麼嚴謹那這樣子是不是產生品質不一那孩子的安全我們怎麼去做到位現在解方是什麼"},{"start":10419.308,"end":10445.677,"text":"這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別"},{"start":10446.557,"end":10475.225,"text":"那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個訪視因為這件事情爆發之後大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大"},{"start":10475.865,"end":10480.93,"text":"如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了"},{"start":10497.825,"end":10518.619,"text":"所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工"},{"start":10519.099,"end":10538.901,"text":"就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪"},{"start":10539.662,"end":10553.957,"text":"那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府大家都很吃緊啊就中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員還是中央可以全部買單另外一個幼兒專責醫師現在他的裁員也到114年"},{"start":10555.538,"end":10579.766,"text":"那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網"},{"start":10580.946,"end":10597.432,"text":"這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫"},{"start":10603.694,"end":10625.935,"text":"下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討"},{"start":10627.296,"end":10642.434,"text":"但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣"},{"start":10643.695,"end":10666.415,"text":"所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長"},{"start":10667.276,"end":10693.609,"text":"對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題"},{"start":10694.349,"end":10716.66,"text":"他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個"},{"start":10719.921,"end":10720.341,"text":"那你們的委託方案有沒有"},{"start":10741.929,"end":10769.796,"text":"有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理,但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫,尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話,那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫。"},{"start":10771.796,"end":10797.042,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工"},{"start":10798.038,"end":10823.957,"text":"藉大反彈而且打擊社工的士氣我們社社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進"},{"start":10827.312,"end":10842.819,"text":"針對這個社工被上銬的這個案件,其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環,大家平常合作也都會想好。那這件事情,他在執行的過程當中,真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題,人權的問題。"},{"start":10844.62,"end":10866.25,"text":"所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個致意這是我們的都是夥伴未來我們要再繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁再執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正"},{"start":10867.287,"end":10891.014,"text":"好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理"},{"start":10892.995,"end":10893.235,"text":"社會安全網"},{"start":10910.104,"end":10910.224,"text":"主席"},{"start":10939.533,"end":10943.015,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員接下來請邱政軍委員發言質詢好我們請邱委員好我們一樣請我們的薛部長好請部長"},{"start":10966.874,"end":10993.306,"text":"委員好部長您辛苦了但是碰到這個問題我也覺得我還是這樣覺得您還是責無旁貸我想我們現在就針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告"},{"start":10994.892,"end":11007.389,"text":"我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在"},{"start":11008.944,"end":11037.471,"text":"昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼"},{"start":11039.079,"end":11062.651,"text":"法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這一個媒合機構來做評估"},{"start":11064.952,"end":11093.494,"text":"但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查"},{"start":11094.255,"end":11118.669,"text":"另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做"},{"start":11120.421,"end":11127.978,"text":"因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說"},{"start":11129.556,"end":11154.683,"text":"我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以"},{"start":11155.143,"end":11166.771,"text":"不要說出了問題我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡"},{"start":11167.987,"end":11190.226,"text":"衛福部的角色又是什麼?可以到時候我希望我們部長這邊給社會大眾一個明確的一個說法好不好不能說讓不要讓外界覺得說我們今天碰到問題就把責任推給地方這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導"},{"start":11191.307,"end":11212.263,"text":"就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西放上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?"},{"start":11216.406,"end":11239.812,"text":"本來就屬於脆弱家庭本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量人員夠嗎現在是因為機制上面有問題他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嘛對不對不一定是人手不夠是就把他推出去就對了我講難聽一點就這樣子啦"},{"start":11242.168,"end":11258.946,"text":"那我覺得啦,我們的社工的工作量會不會太大?就增加這個部分的話是不會,因為他本來對這一類的家庭就脆弱當然他就要去做一些評估那各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?"},{"start":11260.694,"end":11284.888,"text":"這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎"},{"start":11285.348,"end":11307.311,"text":"社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長"},{"start":11308.712,"end":11337.634,"text":"那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎"},{"start":11338.564,"end":11351.689,"text":"林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長"},{"start":11353.24,"end":11353.26,"text":"應該要訓練"},{"start":11386.77,"end":11392.778,"text":"我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?"},{"start":11403.618,"end":11416.885,"text":"當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有但是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣"},{"start":11418.386,"end":11432.709,"text":"通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是"},{"start":11433.57,"end":11451.495,"text":"第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的機制。當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。"},{"start":11460.638,"end":11485.69,"text":"目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理"},{"start":11486.958,"end":11501.217,"text":"這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防"},{"start":11502.967,"end":11530.212,"text":"那我們部裡面我們會發許可給這個媒合機構嘛對不對?是從這邊來申請的對不對?那身為委託單位啦齁那我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任齁這個部分齁除了一年檢查一次齁我們三年也要評鑑一次嘛對不對?那還有什麼?我們不是委託的單位那誰委託?我們是給許可就是說"},{"start":11532.494,"end":11560.32,"text":"這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給藍燈既然是媒合就是說您發給許可那當然你好像不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎?我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼?"},{"start":11561.758,"end":11585.764,"text":"現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務。我這樣講,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看怎麼樣。"},{"start":11589.681,"end":11611.91,"text":"我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善"},{"start":11615.271,"end":11625.219,"text":"對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構它的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱正軍委員的質詢。我們現在來處理臨時提案,總計有13案,請一併宣讀。"},{"start":11635.033,"end":11657.507,"text":"臨時提案第一案目前無論從任何年齡層來看援助民族新生兒死亡率數字近乎一般國民是兩倍雖然你們沒有資料嗎?來議事人員來那我們先休息五分鐘他們要看一下"},{"start":11663.623,"end":11665.124,"text":"休息5分鐘,讓部長看一下"},{"start":12062.839,"end":12066.942,"text":"要發麥克風嗎?上台還是發牌?上台還是發牌?"},{"start":12079.935,"end":12080.275,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12100.753,"end":12114.366,"text":"臨時提案第一案目前無論從任何年齡層來看原住民族新生兒死亡率數字近乎一般國民之兩倍雖然衛福部自民國112年11月起開始推出全國兒童幼兒專責醫師制度"},{"start":12117.249,"end":12142.743,"text":"但應該針對原住民族地區嬰幼兒更為強化保護原提案原要求衛福部應於全國幼兒專責醫師制度之內特別針對原住民族地區新生兒死亡率偏高問題嚴厲積極改善方案並於2個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告提案人委員如現役王育敏陳金輝第二案現行規定下"},{"start":12143.323,"end":12169.979,"text":"嚴格限制保母領取托育補助時﹐雙方之親屬關係﹐彼此須為三親等以下之親屬方得領取﹐否則保母僅得領取育兒津貼﹐但許多原鄉及偏遠地區因復原遼闊﹐家長接送不易﹐若一概要求奔波送托﹐反而導致家長困擾﹐且父母如果自身具有保母資格﹐照顧自身嬰幼兒時﹐卻僅得從托育補助及育兒津貼兩者擇依﹐"},{"start":12171.42,"end":12190.022,"text":"也有違政府政策美意．原要求衛福部積極與縣市政府協商．放寬限制．使此等偏遠地區下具有保母鎮造家庭之父母．得以同時領取托育補助及育兒津貼．並於2個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告．"},{"start":12191.243,"end":12199.966,"text":"提案人委員盧憲一、陳金輝、王育敏第三案有建於衛福部所提社會安全網推動情形及策進作為報告內容僅兩頁有關虐兒案完全未見還原真相、釐清問題的檢討與具體作法"},{"start":12207.028,"end":12224.224,"text":"原進請報告應與退回．要求衛福部針對上述缺失深自檢討並提出具體改進做法．重新再送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會審議提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、廖偉翔、陳金輝、盧憲伊、邱振軍、屠權吉"},{"start":12225.305,"end":12254.204,"text":"第4案由建於我國社會工作專職人員約18628人每人負責案件量難以負荷每年平均發生6000件暴力對待平均薪水約僅3.5萬元導致近3年平均流動率將近四分之一又涉及於工作過程中亦涉民形式糾紛或法律訴訟動輒成為媒體新聞焦點遭肉搜違反偵查不公開或形式訴訟法之對待原要求內政部及法務部"},{"start":12256.025,"end":12276.372,"text":"針對執法過程中如何保障社工個人隱私及人權提出檢討與精進作為向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王育敏、盧憲一、圖全集第5案社工平均薪水僅3.5萬元又社工於工作過程中涉人民刑事法律案件"},{"start":12277.472,"end":12305.39,"text":"其高額訴訟成本與漫長訴訟過程恐使社工人員難以負荷若衛福部無法提供協助致使社工求助無門將嚴重打擊社會工作者士氣影響社會安全網穩定性慎舉原要求衛福部於一個月內參考勞動部委託法律輔助基金會之專案提出支持社工射送協助機制提案人委員王玉敏、盧憲一、圖全吉第6案"},{"start":12307.079,"end":12311.423,"text":"考量衛福部針對家外安置兒童將增加訪視頻率對社工人力需求將大幅且持續增加為落實計劃並維持社工人員穩定性原要求衛福部於一個月內提出增加訪視制度之詳細執行計劃、人力規劃與預算規劃"},{"start":12326.198,"end":12340.276,"text":"向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王玉敏、盧憲一、圖全吉第7案臺北市一名1歲大兒童凱凱遭到一對流性保母姊妹聯手屍滅全身體無完膚休克慘死"},{"start":12342.839,"end":12349.503,"text":"引起社會公憤,為預防兒童受虐情況發生,原要求衛福部於一個月內嚴禮在收出養製度中,攝服機構或保姆應每月一次帶孩童到鄰近衛生所或社區診所進行健康檢查,健檢費用及掛號費用由政府編預算支出,每件計價而不是健保支出,要求醫師做記錄存檔,一發現有問題就及時通報衛福部,並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境提出"},{"start":12372.777,"end":12395.858,"text":"專案報告提案人委員蘇清泉、盧憲一、陳昭芝。第8案,針對兒福聯盟社工疑似未盡探訪之責,導致孩童遭凌虐致死。社工人力不足是全國性制度性議題。原進行衛福部於一個月內,依最新法規附與社工之業務,重新盤點全國之真實社工人力需求,同時盤點全國社會安全網計劃。"},{"start":12398.32,"end":12419.226,"text":"目前社工缺額狀況提案人委員徒淳吉、聯署人委員盧憲一、邱振軍、陳金輝第9案經查證後發現我國國小兒童漸漸多由學校自行委外並交由診所協助檢查是否有達成國民小學學生健康檢查實施辦法基於瞭解國民小學學生"},{"start":12419.966,"end":12442.992,"text":"生長發育狀況．早期發現疾病與體格缺點．並予以矯緻且妥適安排教學活動．以增進學生健康的立法目的不無疑議．據此基於保證兒童身體健康權益．建請衛福部及教育部於一個月內．共同瞭解現況及研議國小兒童健檢改善方案．提案人委員王正旭、林月琴、陳盈"},{"start":12443.892,"end":12458.784,"text":"第10案,基於近期發生之流同遭保母虐死事件,為極力防止該事件再次發生,請衛福部立即檢討兒童出養前之照顧與評估機制,並修訂家外安置處理原則,並請衛福部針對直轄市縣市政府"},{"start":12462.086,"end":12481.782,"text":"運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則有關居托人員建立應改為要求地方主管機關強制建立訪視輔導狀況良好保姆名單以照顧安置個案簽署工作請於一個月內完成提案人委員林月琴、聯署人委員陳瑩、王振旭"},{"start":12482.543,"end":12494.656,"text":"第11案基於近期發生之流同招保母虐死事件為吉利防止該事件再次發生衛生福利部檢討我國收出養的評估機制與安置問題請衛福部向兒福聯盟針對流同兒"},{"start":12500.081,"end":12522.769,"text":"針對劉彤兒虐致死案提供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會委員審視並於一個月內公告建立居托服務中心與媒合機構公案準則以明確行政程序提案人委員林月琴、聯署人委員陳瑩、王振旭第12案有鑑於出養男童遭保姆虐死案引起外界高度關注更凸顯社會安全網各環節出現系統性問題"},{"start":12526.67,"end":12551.232,"text":"中央實施與地方政府充分配合落實相關教育．調整各自角色與任務使之更真明確原此要求衛福部應嚴格要求地方政府落實執行督導業務．並將相關作為於一個月內以書面報告向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、陳盈第13案"},{"start":12553.046,"end":12557.207,"text":"鑑於兒孽涉及相當多面向如出養男童遭保母虐死案涉及兒童初收養、兒少保護和居家通獄管理三個面向與地方局處可能由不同單位主責國家應將兒童相關事宜統合辦理為免將來因缺失而延誤相關案件的處置時間原要求衛福部應將相關通報制度調整並公告"},{"start":12578.174,"end":12589.58,"text":"未來不論家內、家外的兒童虐待事件都需向衛福部保護司通報以立各單位及時介入處置提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、陳瑩宣讀完畢好那現在我們開始處理請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見好來請"},{"start":12607.544,"end":12629.796,"text":"委員好 針對於這個臨時提案一的部分那業務單位這邊建議針對第三第三項的部分的第一行能夠把幼兒專責醫師制度的部分修改為優化兒童醫療照護計畫然後在最後一行的部分的專案報告改為書面報告 以上來請提案委員"},{"start":12637.831,"end":12654.481,"text":"第二案在最後一段因為這邊是不是可以建議原提案要求衛福部研議並修正而授"},{"start":12656.943,"end":12670.678,"text":"兒童及少年福利與權益保障法放寬輕等限制因為後面的此等偏遠地區可以同時領取托補與育兒津貼"},{"start":12671.819,"end":12691.417,"text":"這個因為涉及到整個全面的部分那這個而且我們現在脫補跟育兒津貼是只能夠擇一來領取這涉及整體制度那偏遠地區的這一塊呢因為這也涉及到"},{"start":12692.337,"end":12714.314,"text":"整體資源的部分所以我們是建議是不是可以來做一個思考是不是可以把這句話先刪除那在兩個月內因為這個放寬輕等限制還涉及到要修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法"},{"start":12714.854,"end":12718.595,"text":"請問提案委員有沒有意見好 那修正後通過 來 第三案"},{"start":12743.689,"end":12765.814,"text":"主管機關有意見嗎?他其實跟上午通過的一樣,那就是不是一起,就一起通過。好,那就按文字修正後通過。來,第三。"},{"start":12777.068,"end":12797.458,"text":"主席各位委員好,針對第4案的提案,法務部代表請針對第二段的部分,要求內政部跟法務部針對執法過程中,若保障社工個人隱私及人權,提出檢討進行作為,向立法院社福委員會來提出說明,這一點是沒有,但是有關社工"},{"start":12798.178,"end":12820.963,"text":"那這一點跟刑訴事項89條之一以及執行機體逮捕解送過程使用藉機的實施要點規定他是要求所有執法機關應該對被告跟犯罪嫌疑人都要注意他的身體跟名義那來避免藉機的暴露所以我建議這邊的一個社工能不能改成被告及犯罪嫌疑人那回復到法條的一個依據"},{"start":12821.963,"end":12823.204,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12841.221,"end":12868.667,"text":"謝謝委員關心關於社工射送的協助機制那最後一段我們是支持但是建議刪除第二句話因為不一定是完全委託法務基金會所以最後一段修正委員要求衛福部於一個月內提出支持社工射送協助機制好可以修正後通過我們要做社工的後段因為他們職業風險真的也很高謝謝好來"},{"start":12872.847,"end":12889.851,"text":"第6案是不是可以在兩個月內因為這個需要再找很多相關單位好沒問題那就請兩個月內要提出詳細的計畫修正後通過第7案第7案是誰"},{"start":12899.937,"end":12924.658,"text":"那我講那就是在第5行在研議在收出養製度中運用幼兒專責醫師對兒童進行健康與發展評估那後面間接費用這一些是不是可以刪除一直到接下來就到"},{"start":12926.63,"end":12927.07,"text":"蘇瑞仁可以嗎?"},{"start":12951.415,"end":12973.476,"text":"我們就是要運用幼兒專責醫師的制度來對這個孩子去做健康跟發展的一個評估因為目前就是幼兒專責醫師跟社政跟衛生要做一個連結尤其是我們對於出養的孩子"},{"start":12973.916,"end":12976.457,"text":"這個案件就是醫師漏接根本沒有醫師介入脆弱家庭才是我們最關心的你現在講"},{"start":13000.393,"end":13020.346,"text":"會去找專責醫師會上網會一大堆表格要弄一弄的有那個能力的家庭也不需要了啦我們已經就是透過地方政府那個有被安置的177名孩子照冊送給地方的就是要去做一個指定"},{"start":13023.5,"end":13050.609,"text":"跟委員說明一下這個是幼兒專責醫師制度本來就有這個機制在做處理的所以我們同樣的意思就是說不需要再特別講說臨近衛生所或社區診所因為本來就有這個機制那在這個機制底下所做的對小孩子的健康或者是發展的評估都是免費都是公務預算在支撐"},{"start":13054.043,"end":13075.653,"text":"那個署長偏遠地區跟原鄉地區根本沒有兒科醫師那不是兒科專責醫師你要不要看到情況是嚴重盧先生你都沒有講話剛才報告齁因為專責醫師如果在偏遠地區的話是由衛生所的醫師來取代這個角色"},{"start":13083.437,"end":13107.013,"text":"所以可以修正後通過好那就按剛剛署長修正文字後通過謝謝委員關心社工人力的問題那剛也跟那個徒委員有做一些討論跟溝通那我們是建議從倒數第5行開始的後段原建請衛福部以一個月內"},{"start":13107.893,"end":13111.054,"text":"好,請問提案委員有沒有意見好,那就按修正通過。來,第9案"},{"start":13146.643,"end":13161.606,"text":"第9案教育部配合辦理好第9案通過來第10案第10案的部分因為我們剛剛有跟林委員做了一些溝通那主要是"},{"start":13162.624,"end":13186.824,"text":"在我們今天報告也對於這個出養前的照顧跟評估機制另外也改變了這個相關的一些安置的流程就會納入委託安置所以我們在第1、2、3、4第4行就是病修正這個部分我們改成納入委託安置的程序病"},{"start":13187.905,"end":13215.734,"text":"修正直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則那要求地方主管機關那把那個有關居托人員建立應改為這幾個字三除那要求地方主管機關那建立強制就先保留拿掉那建立仿是後面都一樣"},{"start":13221.059,"end":13223.343,"text":"先跟林委員先做一些溝通。"},{"start":13228.077,"end":13255.003,"text":"第11案是倒數第二行就是建立這個居托服務中心跟媒合機構的共訪準則因為實際上是最重要是去做訪視輔導所以我們建議是把那個案改成共訪那後面那個就不是行政程序啦所以是不是以明確行政程序這個部分就刪除"},{"start":13258.268,"end":13283.639,"text":"衛生福利部部長、教育部、內政部、內政部、內政部、內政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政"},{"start":13289.917,"end":13313.992,"text":"11案,他剛剛講是11案,他把那個項改成要求好,可以嗎?好,那就修正通過,來第12案這個是可以嗎?可以啊,可以12案沒問題,好,那就通過來第13案"},{"start":13315.354,"end":13335.755,"text":"謝謝委員關心那13案倒數第三行要求衛福部應將相關後面加幾個字重大兒童及少年虐待加這幾個字以及最後的一段話以立各單位後續協助處置那個及時介入改成後續協助謝謝委員同意"},{"start":13339.5,"end":13340.101,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13359.241,"end":13359.741,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長好來部長請"},{"start":13389.369,"end":13412.614,"text":"委員好部長我們衛生福利部存在的目的是做什麼那我在衛福部的網站首頁就看到上面寫著我唸給大家聽促進全民健康與福祉最值得民眾信賴的部會"},{"start":13417.103,"end":13428.87,"text":"第一個目標是健全社會福利服務體系優先照顧弱勢族群"},{"start":13436.334,"end":13459.785,"text":"這當然是我們的目標,但是就是說我們需要整個體系動起來才能夠逐步的達到我們這樣子的一個目標好,那我就直接問,這個粗洋家庭,這弱勢脆弱的迷茫的家庭我想延伸家庭最重要啦,像這個小孩子凱凱"},{"start":13462.182,"end":13476.273,"text":"看報告真的是俯首八道第一個,外祖母阿嬤,我阿嬤,要照顧她說她沒辦法照顧的原因是經濟上的問題第二次出院的保姆,你們說他沒夠資格第三個,這是在外勞,跟護士"},{"start":13486.38,"end":13507.499,"text":"你現在第一家庭就是說祂阿嬤最好、最會照顧的會關心這個小孩一定是他的家人嘛那經濟上有問題你就經濟好你就幫他支援就好那你待會就要改來改去難道這個轉來轉去是有抽成可以抽還是說有績效有獎金是不是"},{"start":13508.656,"end":13529.662,"text":"所以說我們這次的檢討報告裡面就未來這個事情的話就不是有這個媒合機構去決定說要不要出亞因為這如果他是經濟的問題那就是必須地方政府能夠提供協助來解決他的經濟問題基本上就不需要出亞"},{"start":13531.953,"end":13539.596,"text":"出行是下下策,這個大家觀念要改一下,那第二個說這個小孩子一歲會罵髒話,胡說八道,我生死的孩子,我跟你們講,女孩子說話很慢,我現在還有兩個孫子,三個孫子,那女孩子說話都只好一話兩話就直接說話,"},{"start":13555.799,"end":13561.543,"text":"這個社工有問題,這個出糧家庭那更有問題所以大家用卡陶駕駛也知道,這金門都軟木一條嘛那這個小孩子又是在新北、台北這個是資源相對豐富的地方那如果我們拼圖就弄壁了,要吃土啊"},{"start":13585.635,"end":13609.575,"text":"所以這個你沒有在講這個我們聽不下去啦所以部長你要好好檢討真的是要虛心深入的這是刻苦民心啦再來什麼這個兒童聯盟孩子被拘捕了阿婆幫他做什麼事情既然連官務、葬儀都要拘捕葬儀社人免費來挽回"},{"start":13615.655,"end":13619.859,"text":"目前有8個是審查得到,我們的媒合機構有8個是我們得到許可的"},{"start":13640.758,"end":13661.691,"text":"這些各個媒合機構、聯盟、NGO我想還是要評鑑要向議員評鑑、社會評鑑那個表演我覺得這個譬如說一個基金會他的董事會當然這個董事會是一個然後再來是行政團隊"},{"start":13663.132,"end":13683.951,"text":"都要嚴格的來監督、評鑑、把關、考核不然的話這個是笑死人所以在這次檢討報告裡面我有特別提出來對於這一些媒合機構的話我們還是必須要在許可辦法裡面需要加強監督"},{"start":13689.304,"end":13705.528,"text":"再來,像我們在屏東、在鄉下、在原鄉村長跟里長很恐怖村長跟里長還有林長你們一定要善用哪一個家庭有問題,像在鄉下哪一個家庭小孩子有磁環,你問誰最準?問村長"},{"start":13709.366,"end":13726.013,"text":"阿你問領導 哇 都中情情色色 有內代的情勢嗎 那個人問領導就知道了所以你們要善用這一塊 所以這個真的是非常重要"},{"start":13726.753,"end":13748.343,"text":"所以你們現在整個SOP都要改善都要改善不要你只出錢給管事管事離落落現在去到聯盟去到NGO你再外來外去出洋什麼認定了不再來一個問題我們職災有職災的地圖我們這個保姆有沒有設保姆地圖"},{"start":13756.093,"end":13782.658,"text":"這我們可以來做哪裡有出問題都秀出來這樣一目了然比照那個環境部那個職災職災或者勞動部的職災地圖把它秀出來因為現在這個這種小孩子我們可以來研究這個部分當然他會比較容易涉及到的是隱私的問題那這部分的話如何去取得那個平衡"},{"start":13783.458,"end":13805.075,"text":"公部門應該沒有這個問題啦,好不好?然後出了問題就甩鍋給社工,社工有夠衰捏,是去獎駕,又大家說等兩回,我覺得很替社工不捨捏。出事的保姆也是本來就有應付的責任。"},{"start":13809.974,"end":13829.243,"text":"這個案件喔,大家看到大家都很不捨啦,什麼一個孩子把他打下去,讓他站著睡,整個眉毛,肩膀把他扳掉掉,躺在那裡還有吃粉給他戳傷,吃粉捏,粉給他戳捏,他的生殖器把他燒到黑黑的,把他槓架卡在他腦袋裡,腦袋裡還有出血,世間有這麼悲慘的事情嗎?"},{"start":13836.585,"end":13846.757,"text":"這個還在雙北這種地方我覺得我們真的是這些大人真的是好好的檢討了真的太糟糕太糟糕了那再來我就要問"},{"start":13848.782,"end":13872.928,"text":"額科專責醫師陳慶慧也問了額科專責醫師在這個案子裡面完全沒有角色,完全漏接,完全沒有那我們額科專責醫師要去上網要添資料什麼什麼什麼我跟大家報告,要去找到這裡的資源,還可以資料聽到這麼好那個家庭不用理了啦"},{"start":13876.632,"end":13897.076,"text":"會不會絕對是那些很脆弱的那些單親的那些那些家庭所以兒科醫師要怎麼加強角色再來要怎麼讓他們連結是不是每一個都要兒科醫師評估表專責醫師評估表這個真的是有效的因為兒科醫師也有一點點勁兒子三個月上學看一看將來敏感度高一點馬上通報這個部長兒科醫師的角色再說一次"},{"start":13905.9,"end":13915.546,"text":"有這個幼兒專責醫師他有兩個對於小孩子來有兩個收小孩子的這個機制第一個叫做這個"},{"start":13918.108,"end":13938.304,"text":"自行收案自行收案的意思就是說在我們上去年11月以前的話那就是有小孩子3歲以下小孩子來看診的時候你就要跟家家屬提說有這樣的一個計畫那詢問說他是不是願意加入若願意的話那"},{"start":13939.545,"end":13954.033,"text":"幾個要填的這些東西的話就醫師來填他又等於收案了那第二種情形在去年的11月以後的話是新生兒通通要收案"},{"start":13955.914,"end":13973.382,"text":"這部分就有接生的婦產科醫師幫忙去問家屬是不是能夠願意指定他想要的幼兒專責醫師是誰幫忙他去填寫這是致險收案的部分"},{"start":13974.537,"end":13994.739,"text":"那第二個叫做指定收案指定收案就是我們這一次這一種錯過家庭啦臨時安置的收出養過程臨時安置這個就一定要收所以要由那個社會局把這個名單要交給衛生局衛生局的話就會去派案"},{"start":13995.76,"end":14020.354,"text":"那這些我們在事後的話我們必須要去追蹤如果在一定時間目前的話我們是6個月這前6個月比方說我剛剛提到的新生兒6個月之內他還沒有指定的話那這個名單也會到衛生局那邊去就由衛生局來詢問家屬直接他來拍案就這樣"},{"start":14021.394,"end":14046.646,"text":"那這些幼兒專責醫師他就有義務要定期對這個小孩子做一些健檢大概是這樣所以如果有一些餓餓的現象或者是說通知他來做健檢他不出現通知了一次兩次不出現的話那就回到要報給這個社安網讓社工可以再去追蹤大概是這樣子"},{"start":14048.462,"end":14069.082,"text":"你們的理想很好,就是沒有落實啦!你的Network好像很完善,也不是沒有落實啦!所以這麼老那些老,我就覺得非常可惜,又有專責醫師的任揚也才三十幾%而已嘛!目前四十幾啦!"},{"start":14070.882,"end":14079.655,"text":"那這個這麼好的那就應該要加強學齡前的小孩子你要學你這個小子怎麼沒有那個要"},{"start":14080.816,"end":14102.227,"text":"密切的追蹤啦而且我們希望那些早聊的個案更早一點對我們每一個小孩我們都不能放過啦不能不能放棄任何一個小孩這沒人要生孩子 孩子有夠久啊你小孩還要綁 還要撈他這大小都要打屁股的捏部長你今天是有道歉的 怎麼沒人要跟你衝利不適的呢我看你今天這麼認真 又這麼謙虛齁"},{"start":14104.628,"end":14107.571,"text":"好 謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢那接下來我們請徐巧興委員進行質詢"},{"start":14138.596,"end":14141.999,"text":"謝謝主席 那我想請薛部長好 來部長請"},{"start":14146.465,"end":14171.006,"text":"委員好部長您知道衛福部前幾天門口放了很多的花那是民眾要送給凱凱的請問部長您有看過嗎因為這幾天是在要來立法院所以我的辦公的地方是在機關署所以你沒有看到那個花上面大家留的卡片寫的內容"},{"start":14171.787,"end":14187.877,"text":"那其實呢就是有很多的民眾看到這個事情之後很傷心也希望未來可以幫他討公道所以就放了很多的花在衛福部的門口比方說呢我有看到其中一張卡片他寫說對不起凱凱你不痛了我們會努力讓裡面的討回公道"},{"start":14191.099,"end":14211.949,"text":"但是昨天晚上左右的時候突然有網友告訴我們說衛福部突然把這些花都清空了請問去了哪都丟掉了嗎那請問有沒有衛福部其他的同仁是清楚這件事情的因為昨天網路上面有非常多人都在詢問我們送給凱凱的花去哪裡了"},{"start":14215.291,"end":14244.815,"text":"這我再了解一下你今天都來做這個報告了我們衛福部沒有任何一位同仁知道發生什麼事情知道是誰做了這樣的決定嗎?委員部長我相信你可能你的辦公位置不一定在那裡或是你不一定清楚但是今天在場有這麼多的衛福部的官員都在沒有人知道是誰把話都丟掉了嗎?這業務單位那個可能是這樣這個秘書處等等這種這種內部的一些單位所做決定這我們回去再聊"},{"start":14245.275,"end":14269.562,"text":"那請問一下您覺得作為一位部長您覺得民眾所送的花那一兩天之內就突然被衛福部我相信是衛福部啦不好意思如果不是的話但是因為外面的人不太會去把那些花去清掉那顯然比較像是你們衛福部去把民眾所送的花希望能夠告這個凱凱在天之靈的一些衛界都丟掉了部長您覺得合理嗎"},{"start":14270.596,"end":14293.151,"text":"當然不太合理,因為這個是民眾表達他的意願的一個儀式,所以這個不應該輕易的就把它移除了,我回去我會再…請去了解到底是誰所做的決定,那我相信這個部分也必須要說清楚,那對外來負責,這是最基本的,因為大家看到了,民眾都非常的氣憤,覺得我們要送給凱凱的花,你怎麼一兩天就丟掉了,難道你們是不願意讓人民的聲音出現在衛福部的門口嗎?"},{"start":14300.276,"end":14328.469,"text":"所以請這個部份部長回去檢討好嗎好那再來呢我今天剛剛大家都有問到說兒福聯盟之所以能夠接受新北市政府的委託出養收養這個做相關的服務是衛福部所發的許可對吧許可是我們發的許可是你們發的那所以說按照兒童及少年福利權益保障法的15條第4項關於出養媒合服務者的條件都有寫這是中央的法規對吧"},{"start":14331.496,"end":14336.72,"text":"衛福部不能什麼事情都丟給疫情因為我問一下我們是多久要對業者進行評鑑的?三年一次那請教最近一次做評鑑是在民國幾年?"},{"start":14353.357,"end":14358.681,"text":"所以在110年到111年中間本來要做一次嘛,剛好那個時候就是疫情"},{"start":14375.313,"end":14401.191,"text":"那不是啊,疫情已經過了也好一陣子了,你們怎麼都還沒有做?那現在是因為我們這個事情爆發出來之後,我們才發現要做還是本來就安排了?你們說本來就安排,可是對民眾來說就是你們衛福部當時應該做的事情沒有做到因為不管是從網站上或是你們所說的,就是107年的是最新的可是已經過期了那請問這方面的一些責任跟問題,那衛福部怎麼看?"},{"start":14404.822,"end":14429.1,"text":"當然這我們其實除了評鑑之外的話每年還有這個督導考察好那請問這個評鑑的部分什麼時候會完成公布給外界做參考應該今年之內就會完成今年只有8家應該很快只有您說的嘛只有8家所以我請問一下做這樣子一個評鑑從開始到完成需要花多久的時間幾個月我們一般來講幾個月的時間能夠完成這樣子的一個評估報告"},{"start":14433.816,"end":14459.818,"text":"這個是有幾個程序要做第一個就是要召集這個評鑑委員然後對於評鑑委員的部分的話大家要先取得行前的共識然後就是去訪查去實地訪查去看他的資料那回來的話還要再做整理之後的話還要做那我們就問這個整個程序我們預計是要進行幾個月從一開始然後到完成評估報告"},{"start":14462.065,"end":14473.313,"text":"這個因為一家一家輪流去做,所以大概是在大概5、6個月之內5、6個月,那我們現在往前推5、6個月有疫情嗎?"},{"start":14474.511,"end":14503.206,"text":"疫情已經結束啦所以我的意思是說您剛剛所說的這都是藉口從人民的角度來都是藉口如果從一開始要來做評鑑到完成您說的大概是半年的期間疫情已經結束超過半年了那為什麼這個評鑑到現在還過了這麼久沒有做這個也是你們要檢討最後一點時間我想看一下那個全責的這個部分這那張圖片幫我放一下這張圖片這最後我要來跟部長您說一下"},{"start":14503.706,"end":14524.663,"text":"就是說這個全責不明的問題希望中央能夠做比較一致性的法規的規範因為我們可以看到我們從新北市政府到兒福聯盟然後到這個保姆的訪視12次一年然後臺北市社會局這邊訪視的是4次一年可是我是看整個裡面報告之後我們發現這12次的訪視記錄不會提供給臺北市的社會局"},{"start":14529.026,"end":14550.416,"text":"社會局的4次訪視紀錄李當也沒有提供給這個兒福聯盟這邊所以原本一年可以做的是12加416次的訪問可是因為說中間我沒有相關的規定讓彼此資訊透明化所以彼此都不知道以這個案子來說如果資訊有互通是有幫助的怎麼說呢因為這個兒福聯盟他們去訪視前面有兩次被拒絕嗎對不對"},{"start":14554.938,"end":14573.715,"text":"可是臺北市社會局不知道所以那個保姆他講說我們這裡有COVID-19確診要延期之後他以為是第一次所以他就延期了但如果臺北市社會局知道兒福聯盟這邊曾經兩度被拒絕他們就不可能這麼輕放一次一次嘛所以我的意思是說這個所謂的"},{"start":14575.736,"end":14591.549,"text":"12次跟4次未來在資訊上面的透明化跟雙邊的這個協商是不是我們中央能夠來做規定讓地方在執行相關業務的時候可以更了解過程當中所有的社工曾經到到府訪查的記錄是什麼部長"},{"start":14592.31,"end":14610.805,"text":"那這一個部分的話也是這次我們檢討以後需要改善的也就是說以現階段的狀況就是社會局就把事情的丟給兒福聯盟之後的話他就不再去對於這一個小孩子去做必要的一個訪查"},{"start":14611.846,"end":14636.093,"text":"有的只有說因為監督保姆的這個機構臺北市他有去做但是做的頻率因為沒有接收到說這個是一個特殊個案所以他就按照他原來的三個月一次去做對所以這個部分我們整個程序的資料的互通程序的透明化麻煩我們衛福部這邊要統一讓地方執行上能夠更順暢好嗎謝謝"},{"start":14638.374,"end":14642.897,"text":"好,謝謝徐巧欣委員,我們現在休息30分鐘,大家用餐。"},{"start":16448.493,"end":16451.654,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請圖權級委員進行質詢好 謝謝召委請一下我們那個薛部長好 部長請"},{"start":16478.613,"end":16506.978,"text":"部長好委員好那當然其實今天早上發的這個突發的狀況其實我可以感覺其實我們薛部長應該其實在執政黨內其實應該人緣也是蠻好的那我請問一下因為據我們了解今天早上的情形我們王玉敏我們的召委他在2012年到2020年的時候其實那時候就擔任立委而且那個時候也早就已經是我們"},{"start":16507.738,"end":16527.566,"text":"而福聯盟他在那邊任職董事也那時候參與的也是我們衛環委員會那後來2016年的時候有擔任我們的召委擔任主席那我們現在執政黨裡面有很多的委員也是在衛環委員會現在是在衛環當時也是在衛環"},{"start":16530.347,"end":16557.658,"text":"只是我相信在2016年那個時候也有討論很多關於兒少我們相關的議題可是不知道為什麼今天我們討論這個社會安全網的問題的時候會針對這個主席迴避會有這麼大的問題我們是討論這個通案社會安全網那我覺得今天是不是因為我們針對衛福部的檢討報告因為很多大眾覺得"},{"start":16559.519,"end":16585.568,"text":"這太草率需要去退回那我們來講是不是今天大家是不是在護航我們的衛福部那部長絕對沒有這個意見應該這個委員應該不管是執政黨或是在野黨對衛福部的監督都是必要的啦所以我想也不會是涉及到"},{"start":16585.708,"end":16590.511,"text":"對,因為我們認為2016同樣的事情同樣的狀況當時不質疑我們主席迴避的問題為什麼同樣的狀況那今天就質疑我們主席要迴避討論一個社會安全網給大眾一個說清楚講明白的機會我覺得應該沒有這麼難而且讓我們衛福部來針對問題解決問題我覺得這才是最重要的"},{"start":16612.422,"end":16640.977,"text":"好 謝謝部長立委部分的話那當然立委有他的理由這我們不辯評好沒關係那只是說向大家瞭解一下當時的時空背景我們不希望這個質詢變成政治的操作政治的炒作那我請問一下我們兒福聯盟是不是全國性的組織是那針對兒福聯盟所以他是全國性的組織所以其實他應該是不屬於地方政府管轄的對不對"},{"start":16642.497,"end":16666.406,"text":"他就是教育部主管的文教基金會對,所以他是全國性的組織嘛那而且重點,兒福聯盟他這個許可是不是由我們衛福部來發放的就這個收出養的這個業務的許可的話對,所以針對收出養這部分我們衛福部是監管的全責單位嘛"},{"start":16667.472,"end":16687.97,"text":"好,那所以我們針對我們這一次喔,我們的孽兒的致死案那我請問一下這次涉案的保姆是兒福聯盟的嗎?是由他交給他們,他跟他有合作的關係,那這就是一種契約的行為那所以兒福聯盟是由我們衛福部來監管的嗎?"},{"start":16690.028,"end":16716.819,"text":"對 但是就業務上面的話所以沒關係重點所以其實嚴格來講這次虐兒致死案我們衛福部其實是有這個監督的責任這應該沒有問題吧我們是對這個機構來做監督對 所以我們不會去進入美案或者是例行日常所以我們沒關係所以我們兒福聯盟這一件虐兒致死案"},{"start":16717.279,"end":16735.197,"text":"其實衛福部針對監管的部分是有一個不可逃脫的責任這當然是所以我們會加強監管所以據我們了解在112年12月25號我們市府臺北市政府社會局說他就有接獲"},{"start":16736.238,"end":16751.17,"text":"而保案通報那當然他也立刻派員那後來市府受理通報後這個是針對新聞稿然後這個據我們查詢也是這個樣子那有層下我們衛福部的"},{"start":16752.233,"end":16778.366,"text":"保護服務司來釐清是否符合重大兒童及少年虐待事件防制小組實施計畫那當時我們保護司表示這個計畫是針對兒少遭父母監護人或其他實際照顧者重大虐待的事件也就是我們講的家內但是這件行為人是保母是屬於家外所以不適用"},{"start":16778.946,"end":16803.355,"text":"後來社會局也在12月27號去洽詢針對這個部分但是社家署表示因涉及署內跨科室的業務是否要召開重大檢討會議尚在研議中可是目前社會局說其實一直以來後面他們都沒有接獲任何的回應那我想請問一下我們衛福部在這個是監督之下"},{"start":16803.775,"end":16819.889,"text":"我們這個機制我們覺得是不是失禮是不是應該要好好地來檢討一下這個是事後啦那這不管檢討會議怎麼樣召開的話都不會防止說這位流行兒童他的這個死亡"},{"start":16820.629,"end":16840.001,"text":"所以事後的檢討事後的檢討已經一個兒童因為這一個這一個整個的機制結果就是死亡這當然是重大惡劣這為什麼還要問根本不需要問的事情可是可是這個有洽詢我們衛福部"},{"start":16841.962,"end":16848.688,"text":"衛福部還回復說這個是屬於家內的不是他們規範的所以部長是不是我們下面的這些承辦的主管針對這一部分而且當時人家社會局已經通報了他說這個不在我這個"},{"start":16868.824,"end":16873.366,"text":"通報是一件事情他本來就應該要通報讓我們知道有這件事情發生但是他去詢問說要不要開這個就多餘因為他不懂得應該是往他的"},{"start":16897.975,"end":16915.606,"text":"主管去詢問要不要開那這部分當然我也希望針對這已經看到這個機制上後來我也聽說後來我們衛福部也把保姆也納入所以才去做討論所以當初應該我們下面的承辦的"},{"start":16916.747,"end":16933.461,"text":"對於家內家外有不同的見解所以認定是家內所以當時不受理後來因為事件爆發之後才把保姆列入家內所以我希望衛福部針對這部分好好的檢討因為我們可以看得到這個事情又是民眾舉發檢舉之後這事情才出來"},{"start":16936.583,"end":16959.927,"text":"我覺得這跟蘇丹紅真的是異曲同工之妙都是民眾舉發我們衛福部才出來處理我覺得前面所有的機制又失靈了等到民眾舉發我們再來好好的檢討那當然雖然沒有超前部署但是亡羊補牢也是沒有辦法中的辦法希望針對這些部分我們好好的去做改善"},{"start":16960.607,"end":16976.55,"text":"當然所以今天提出來的一個檢討報告也就是針對這一些問題好我希望這檢討報告還是要好好加強因為社會大眾對這個檢討報告是真的不滿意那我再請問一下我們請我們社公司我請問一下我們目前"},{"start":16987.864,"end":17013.089,"text":"根據我們統計,全國政府部門社工有多少人?我們目前有的是一年底的數字大概是7,928那是公的嘛,我看一下施的好像總共施的好像有一萬出夠,所以總共一萬八千多對不對?好,那我請問一下,我們現在社福相關部門,這個社工目前來講到底夠不夠?"},{"start":17015.267,"end":17039.464,"text":"如果以我們就是全國人口的社工的人力比的確跟其他國家比是來的負擔高一點所以我也看你們去年新聞就有報出你衛福部有針對全國社會安全網的計畫你們就有說要增加4190人的社工可是據我們了解目前只找到3400人那你們的報告從頭到尾也沒有"},{"start":17039.964,"end":17057.1,"text":"提到你要的人數是4000多人那現在只達到3000多人那這些問題不用去檢討嗎還是等到事件爆發的時候我們再來檢討要增加人數跟委員報告的確行政院核定給我們社安網的人力第二期是從11年到114年"},{"start":17059.162,"end":17067.525,"text":"那總共要增加的人數每年的都不一樣那我們每個月都有做這個禁用人數的一個統計那也跟縣市來檢討說怎麼協助他們可以增加所以因為我們希望針對社工這一部分要盡快補強因為你們有提出這個9點的改進措施那目前我們看到你這社工數就不夠"},{"start":17080.549,"end":17096.059,"text":"你提這個9點措施我想請問一下你到時候提出就算再好的計畫沒有人去做沒有人去執行到時候一樣是漏洞百出那你今天提出這個計畫你並沒有提出說如何去補強這個社工人數啊"},{"start":17098.033,"end":17113.91,"text":"提出9點方面的改善措施接下來當然就是要做這件事情針對這些改善措施我們會召集地方政府那一起來做討論需要多少的人力有什麼樣的困難需要多少的預算經費"},{"start":17115.632,"end":17144.883,"text":"那其實針對這個社工招募卜益據我們了解111年我們了解我們這個兒福聯盟他這個總資產有45.9億可是在薪資的部分據我們查他只佔2億所以算起來這個前線的社工他算起來領下來都不到4萬塊可是我們蓋大樓動不動就3億4億那錢這樣子用不知道部長衛福部這邊知道他們使用錢的情形"},{"start":17145.203,"end":17161.426,"text":"我們會進一步去做了解因為我剛剛有跟委員報告那兒福聯盟是屬於文教基金會它的主管機關應該是教育部所以這個部分的話當然我們會跟教育部一起來討論我希望這個部分還是要多注意因為"},{"start":17162.346,"end":17187.365,"text":"這個有關於我們社工招募的問題而且我們了解他收入9億裡面很多都是捐款可是他每年用喔用不到50%那我不知道說人家捐款捐那麼多你很多的費用你不去用在這些該使用的上面爆發很多社工招募不易等等的問題然後等到推了很多的政策跟措施卻沒有社工去執行我覺得這個部長應該要好好來去重視喔"},{"start":17190.427,"end":17214.665,"text":"因為我覺得這個事情爆發居然已經爆發了可是我針對衛福部針對一個良心的建議從我們前面食藥署再到這個虐兒事件全部都是民眾檢舉像食安五環到最後一環民眾檢舉然後這個虐兒事件也是民眾檢舉再來好好檢討再來好好改善我希望能夠"},{"start":17215.886,"end":17242.192,"text":"衛福部的部分真的要加緊總體檢一下那我們今天也有提案針對我們現時盤點目前所有社福政策緣而缺少的狀況以及檢討方式給社會知悉那今天這個提案報告也出去那希望我們衛福部掌握這些資料好好的檢討改善還有後續的相關資料也請我們衛福部好好的來提供檢討改善謝謝"},{"start":17244.98,"end":17272.88,"text":"好謝謝吳委員的質詢接下來我們請黃秀邦委員進行質詢謝謝主席我們請部長好有請部長可以喝口水還是部長你先休息一下我請次長好了今天次長應該也最清楚有關我們兒福的案件好來那我們請李次長"},{"start":17276.058,"end":17303.72,"text":"委員好市長好市長我想請教就針對這一件凱凱的這個案子如果地方政府如果沒有通報給中央那你們會知道嗎確實是需要透過地方政府的通報因為依法他們發現疑似兒女是跟地方通報那地方發現是一個重大兒女的話就必須跟中央來通報那未來如果"},{"start":17304.915,"end":17330.196,"text":"未來如果地方有這樣子而虐的事件的話因為我剛剛看就是前面幾個委員也有特別提到地方社會局他可能會跟你們請示那就是說要不要開這個而虐的這個重大而虐的會議啊那你們跟大家說可能在不符合什麼樣的法令然後就是說又要詢問那如果未來還有類似事件的話你們是不是有一個"},{"start":17331.918,"end":17337.908,"text":"同整的一個單位或者是一個專責單位而不是說我還要去問哪一個部門是負責這個案件的"},{"start":17340.939,"end":17363.085,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教就是說確實我們過去在重大惡劣這個部分我們會去分發生在哪一個場域有不同的單位來負責那這次我們也發現說其實最好是有一個單位作為一個總窗口然後負責來督導不管是地方政府還是其他我們本部的其他"},{"start":17363.545,"end":17367.048,"text":"我想再請教一下就是說我們有很多就是出養這樣的一個就是都交給民間的這個機構、媒合機構"},{"start":17391.525,"end":17409.492,"text":"那我不知道說你們怎麼去怎麼去認定或者說有什麼樣的機制好去覺得說這個這個機構媒合機構是符合我們所需要的或者是說他是不是有按照我們的規定在進行或者是說比如說這個這個兒童這個幼兒"},{"start":17412.353,"end":17413.234,"text":"所以我們這次針對過去在收出養這個部分就是"},{"start":17441.817,"end":17442.782,"text":"完全由民間團體來負責的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":17445.689,"end":17472.891,"text":"這次我們就有做一些重要的一個檢討包括說出養的必要性的評估應該要回到縣市政府那在等待出養的短暫這個安置應該也有縣市政府來結合他的在地的一個安置的一個資源然後費用要出那如果經費不足我們中央就來提供協助那我們對於這些說出養媒合機構其實除了三年一次的評鑑之外"},{"start":17473.872,"end":17497.843,"text":"每一年其實都還是有業務檢查然後還都有開聯繫會議我們也會再透過強化這些機制然後能夠更清楚的瞭解這些收出養媒合機構是不是有落實那很重要的一點當然就是因為這些孩子的一個媒合到收出養媒合機構都是縣市政府去跟民眾以及媒合這樣的機構"},{"start":17499.484,"end":17516.438,"text":"以這個案子而言其實它是脆弱家庭是已經開案了所以以我們脆弱家庭的一個方式其實是應該每個月還是要去做家庭方式可是後來縣市政府他可能只有針對外祖母這邊做方式可是他忘了"},{"start":17516.843,"end":17544.38,"text":"其實這個孩子也是在等待出養當中他應該也要去做方式所以未來要怎麼避免這樣類似的狀況還有一個就是他原本是在新北那後來他這個保母是在臺北市那怎麼樣去對接把這個整個對孩子最好的方式我覺得這應該是要地方政府或者是媒合機構應該也要有一些對接其實我們在相關的一些兒少的"},{"start":17545.801,"end":17571.137,"text":"保護的相關的案件裡面大概都有一個分工就是說今天他如果換了居住地的話你原來居住的這個縣市你要通知他往哪一個他接下來是往哪一個地方居住他必須要去通知在地的社會局那這個案件其實就是看到是沒有去落實這樣子通知他的小孩的居住有"},{"start":17571.817,"end":17573.158,"text":"更大的缺失可能是在執行面"},{"start":17588.431,"end":17604.838,"text":"在執行面就是說怎麼樣去落實所以我們擔心的就是說每次發生兒孽事件或是有一些重大的兒童的議題的話在立法院這邊都會開一個可能就是專案報告或邀請衛福部這邊來做檢討可是會後之後"},{"start":17607.799,"end":17624.082,"text":"到底地方政府或是我們中央政府或是媒介的這個媒合的機構到底有沒有去落實我覺得這個落實比你訂了好多的這個法條或訂了好多的規則還更重要那怎麼樣去落實我覺得這個中央應該是以一個督導"},{"start":17625.003,"end":17629.725,"text":"這部分我們在這次的檢討報告有提出來這是我們中央對於地方的督導、協助或是協調這部分我們怎麼樣來強化那當然地方政府對於他的業務跟他合作的"},{"start":17657.325,"end":17676.4,"text":"他們自己在社會局處裡面的相關科別的一個溝通協調以及他有委託民間團體的一些合作的一些方案地方政府要負起這樣一個督導協助的責任那我有看到一個改善的計畫可能就是說要強化保姆的訓練"},{"start":17677.861,"end":17697.527,"text":"那還有一個就是增加訪視頻率那我想請教還有一個是辦理保姆評鑑推薦平台那這個好像是我們現在本來就已經在做的嘛對不對你這個訪視的頻率那你現在本來可能一個月一次那你現在是要一個月再增加"},{"start":17698.603,"end":17719.842,"text":"我們這次的檢討跟兩個縣市還有專家學者額蒙一起做的檢討會議當中大家都覺得說應該有提高訪視的必要性可是應該要去看的是什麼樣的情況之下我們要去提高訪視那這個部分我們會在4月底以前我們會再把"},{"start":17720.282,"end":17740.611,"text":"先是政府一起邀請他們一起來開會那這當中我們覺得應該要建立所謂的指引然後這是所謂的check list這是哪一個部分應該要注意到那我們這個部分就會希望在相關的指引相關的一些指標上面做得更加的具體其實現在有可是"},{"start":17741.091,"end":17750.178,"text":"可能還沒有那麼的具體我們是把它做更加的一個具體讓未來的訪視的人員不只是社工去在保姆這邊有一個部分的專業是所謂的教保人員的專業也讓他們知道說怎麼樣去確保整個孩子有沒有受到好的照顧那整個加強訓練這個部分有討論到這兩個部分要去加強一個就是對兒童發展的訓練那這個部分可能就是社工比較缺乏的"},{"start":17767.512,"end":17784.986,"text":"那一個就是額內的辨識的能力的一個訓練那這個部分我們也會希望兩個方面都能夠一起來提升那剛剛市長特別提到就是說訪市的頻率要增加那其實你也知道社工要管的事情真的非常的多"},{"start":17786.066,"end":17810.16,"text":"我每次如果經過縣府的那個社會處的你從上面看那個可能到七八點八九點那個燈都還是亮的那我也知道說他們的工作量真的都非常的大那怎麼樣未來如果說這個訪視的頻率要增加的話可能也許工作量也增加了那怎麼樣讓地方的第一線的社工人員有更多的這個資源"},{"start":17812.471,"end":17828.406,"text":"如果說因為這樣的一個訪視的頻率的增加那我們會一併來檢討例如說在社福中心催加因為那個訪視頻率增加可能是在委託安置這個部分還有一個部分就是全日拖的保姆這個部分"},{"start":17828.766,"end":17842.695,"text":"所以我們就會針對在每個社福中心的社工人員是否有增加的必要以及在各縣市的居托中心這些保姆的訪視輔導員有沒有增加的必要我們會一併都來做檢討我希望說你們也要成為這個社工人員最佳的後盾因為真的確實如果不給他們這個資源的話其實也很難去"},{"start":17857.467,"end":17870.724,"text":"在去年發生的事情在桃園某私立托嬰中心在去年的時候有托育人員涉嫌對幼兒施暴、打巴掌、灌水"},{"start":17871.525,"end":17896.764,"text":"那其實類似這樣的一個狀況可能家長看到也都會非常痛心那我們針對這個就是當時那個桃園市的社會局他們是處以裁罰這個機構的行為人就是罰錢那要求工作人員停止職務那我想請教就是說類似如果這麼嚴重的事情是不是"},{"start":17904.167,"end":17913.64,"text":"這依我們相關的法律規定如果發生額內案件這個托嬰中心跟縣市政府的社會局他必須找所有的家長一起來召開會議"},{"start":17915.101,"end":17943.738,"text":"讓所有在這邊受托的家長知道說這個托嬰中心有發生這樣一個事情那如果說家長他想要轉托的話縣市政府要幫他協助他轉換這個就是一個真實的案例啦那個縣市政府其實他地方的這種托嬰中心其實也很少那這些小朋友想要轉到其他的托嬰中心找不到找不到這是真實的喔是找不到他希望就是說"},{"start":17945.679,"end":17974.546,"text":"沒有足夠的托嬰中心那他只好就要求說不然你就到其他縣市可能就跨縣市了啦所以我就是說最主要可能第一方面如果發生類似這樣的一個狀況那同樣一個這樣的一個托嬰中心裡面的這些幼兒應該縣市政府或者是什麼樣的單位應該要介入然後協助這些幼兒可以轉到其他的這個托嬰中心而不是讓家長自己去找"},{"start":17975.526,"end":17995.336,"text":"確實我們相關的規定就是要求社會局處要協助那可能委員提到就是說可能在他的家長就近的需要的區域裡面沒有適合的一個機構那這個部分其實也可以跟家長討論就是說那是不是可以有居托中心的推薦"},{"start":17995.996,"end":17996.036,"text":"好,我..."},{"start":18020.62,"end":18031.442,"text":"不希望就是說每次發生事情之後我們才在這邊做檢討應該要事先就要把這些事情做好啦好不好繼續加油好謝謝委員好謝謝黃秀帆委員的質詢接下來我們請王正旭委員進行質詢謝謝主席有請部長薛部長好請薛部長是"},{"start":18052.239,"end":18073.573,"text":"委員好學部長好辛苦了我們知道所有的孩子都是家長的寶也是社會的寶更是國家的寶所以首先針對這次的內統事件我想這真的是凸顯出目前在各種政策跟措施上都有一定失靈的地方"},{"start":18074.253,"end":18101.787,"text":"今天也聽到也看到也知道很多的要求還有也做了相關的配套措施這個一定是要有立即改善的必要那如何精進現有的政策讓所有的這些需求者都能夠得到好的照顧跟關懷真的是非常迫切的一個任務所以就麻煩部長繼續擔當因為守護下一代是我們這一代共同的責任這個是非常確定的事情"},{"start":18102.407,"end":18118.518,"text":"所以針對於全國國務委員對這個事件真的都感到非常的痛心也希望能夠透過更完整的檢討避免下一次的發生不過不管如何我們還是很擔心萬一真的有下一個案件會怎麼辦"},{"start":18119.939,"end":18138.932,"text":"就好像今天媒體就爆宅了雖然還沒有確實不過好像表示又通報兩起疑似的那個個案那這個案情當然還在釐清裡面可是比較特別是這兩個個案都涉及了移工的子女而不是我們臺灣自己的子女"},{"start":18139.892,"end":18155.477,"text":"這個突顯出移工子女萬一他們的孩子們也出現類似的問題的時候這個包括醫療的、健康的照護可能也需要透過部裡面多加以關心因為依據報載"},{"start":18159.538,"end":18183.185,"text":"這個儀式的個案裡面是因為諾魯病毒而致死我們知道依照台灣的這個健康照護的能力要讓諾魯病死讓兒童致死表示說在治療上他一定是受到很大的耽擱跟影響才會出現這樣的問題所以我們也知道諾魯病毒其實只要透過勤洗手就能夠有機會去減少或改善這個"},{"start":18192.592,"end":18206.604,"text":"這兩個案子有一個案子是臺北市的病童已經死亡到院的時候已經死亡在生前有就醫的紀錄醫師的診斷是急性腸胃炎"},{"start":18210.218,"end":18226.136,"text":"但是他沒有做任何的病毒的採檢所以現在是在司法的程序當中等司法相應的結果才能夠確定他的死因"},{"start":18227.658,"end":18248.373,"text":"第二個案子是在桃園的一個案子病童送到台北來台北這邊的診斷仍然也是急性腸胃炎因為急性腸胃炎有時候會脫水所以他來的時候狀況也不是很好"},{"start":18250.154,"end":18264.908,"text":"醫院把他收到ICU去目前經過治療之後有比較穩定但是醫院同時有發現說有外傷的一個現象所以醫院也做了額內的通報"},{"start":18266.689,"end":18280.64,"text":"這個部份的話這個第二個案子的話我們希望說當病頭那這個比較穩定的時候那我們再進入這一個是否有額內的這樣的一個相關的一個調查那"},{"start":18281.76,"end":18301.207,"text":"這兩個案子因為牽涉到的都是逃逸移工所生的小孩子那這個媽媽本身應該是沒有能力去照顧而委託其他的機構團體或者是這個她的友人去做照顧的"},{"start":18301.767,"end":18329.174,"text":"那這部分的話當然會涉及到逃逸移工還有逃逸移工所生的小孩子要怎麼樣去協助他等等這些相關的這些措施那目前的話這些在這個中央的層級包括衛福部包括移民署那包括勞動部等等這些我們有一個機制是可以來協助這一個但是一個很重要的就是"},{"start":18330.254,"end":18350.935,"text":"這些要找出來這是比較困難的一個所以這個部分的話當然是涉及到這個部分但是地方在做這個接受到這個通報之後那也有往衛福部這邊來通知那衛福部這邊的話因為接收到不管是這個"},{"start":18358.923,"end":18371.096,"text":"這並不是區分這些什麼樣的案子是這些的一個重點重點是到底要不要去辨識說它是否就是這個"},{"start":18378.104,"end":18387.917,"text":"尤其是一個已經死亡了那已經進入檢調一個還在的那這一個部分的話應該是往這一個方向這兒童的最佳利益去思考"},{"start":18388.337,"end":18408.611,"text":"是 所以就麻煩不管是中央或地方只要是兒童不管他是什麼樣的身份我們都必須要從臺灣可以去幫助兒童的這個立場來做好這些事情是好 謝謝那照顧下一代守護下一代都是政府應該盡的責任也是國人很高的期許"},{"start":18409.671,"end":18436.603,"text":"針對兒童有更完整的保護跟照顧都是政府很重要的責任所以本期今天要特別關注的是我們除了一些該有的對兒童的保護以外兒童的醫療的權益其實我本身是一個癌症科的醫師當然對於如果兒童他有同樣的這些癌症問題的時候我們有沒有更好的方式來讓這樣的就醫過程可以更順利也可以順利的康復"},{"start":18437.643,"end":18439.427,"text":"部長,你們知道臺灣有一個叫兒童醫療輔導師這樣的角色"},{"start":18443.438,"end":18470.919,"text":"這我們同仁有跟我有做一點說明這不是一個很普遍的一個不是一個很普遍的需求還是說期待我們未來有可能的話呢進入再做評估啦因為他所服務的對象到底是哪一些人他需要什麼特別的一些專業的這一個能力這都還需要再做討論是因為我們知道兒童整個診療的需求"},{"start":18472.06,"end":18496.707,"text":"包括兒童醫院的建設還有如何能夠讓整體的尤其是重症的這些兒童的醫療需求來做哪一些更好的處理我們可以根據現在的資料看到其實臺大兒童醫院也好或馬街兒童醫院也好事實上他們是針對於這樣的需求有在做各方面的努力我們知道醫療輔導師其實他是有他的特色"},{"start":18497.547,"end":18523.925,"text":"他的特色就是可以陪伴兒童在整個重症的醫療過程當中如何能夠協同整個醫療團隊來讓他的這個診療過程可以更順利包括減少這個兒童在就醫期間會因為他在受到就醫的不同的這種各方面的影響而導致抗拒或者是心理的壓力或者是甚至後來因為家長"},{"start":18524.565,"end":18524.585,"text":"臺灣的確"},{"start":18549.679,"end":18570.114,"text":"每一年看起來是都有逐漸在增加的過程包括每一年在台灣幾乎每一天都會有一個新的兒童會被診斷是癌症那這個癌症不只是兒癌包括血液癌以外很多都是來自於身體的各方面的癌症那這種整個診療其實是非常的長"},{"start":18571.474,"end":18588.747,"text":"有的是需要好幾個禮拜的時間有的是需要更久甚至是好幾個月的時間所以這部分如果有相關的能力來做處理的話對這個病人或是他的家長是有很大的幫助那不知道最近有一部電影叫做BIG"},{"start":18590.468,"end":18610.921,"text":"教育部長有沒有去看過這部電影目前還沒有機會去看如果有時間的話或者是真的需要稍微做情緒上的舒緩的話這部電影我是真的很推薦包括在現場的所有的大家可以有機會去看這部電影"},{"start":18613.762,"end":18636.173,"text":"因為他是很溫馨的很感人的去描述這個兒童的癌症病人如何透過現有的醫療能夠讓他們順利的康復那同時很溫馨的去描述家長還有醫療團隊中間如何能夠用好的方式去讓這個疾病的康復過程是順利的而且是非常的具有"},{"start":18637.754,"end":18664.646,"text":"一個溫馨的力量去幫助兒童們解決他在就醫當中很多很多的困難所以我們也知道如果能夠透過這些好的教育方式讓全臺灣的民眾都可以更知道如何能夠有效的陪伴的同時讓整個醫療會更順利的話那這樣的這個兒童醫療輔導師的角色就可以更凸顯出他的重要性出來我們可以看得出來其實在全球"},{"start":18665.566,"end":18682.595,"text":"最發達的國家在醫療上面包括美國跟加拿大他們的確有在很早幾乎在15年前就感受到這個需求所以他們有很好的建制包括其實還透過醫院的經營預算的同時包括政府也會撥預算來協助這個"},{"start":18686.357,"end":18690.781,"text":"臺灣相對是有基金會在協助處理這一塊不過相對來講就沒有辦法像其他的這個醫療先進國家有這麼好的這個人力跟處理的模式"},{"start":18709.719,"end":18735.225,"text":"主要原因是包括在要求變成輔導師他真的需要一個很完整的教育跟好的認證的過程那臺灣這部分很希望將來有機會透過這方面的機制來幫助我們來建立這樣的人才同時提供給醫療院所來幫助尤其是在兒童醫院裡面可以協助整個醫療的過程"},{"start":18736.925,"end":18750.691,"text":"這次有請這個部長這邊來研討看看將來政府有沒有可能有辦法去用專案或研究案的方式來讓這樣的需求可以得到一個滿足"},{"start":18752.042,"end":18767.615,"text":"我想我們初步會請同仁去蒐集這些資料這個部分的話也麻煩委員幫忙那我們蒐集的資料之後我們再來做一些研究因為這個會牽涉到是否他要變成一個專業還是說不是那"},{"start":18768.876,"end":18797.762,"text":"什麼樣的人來做這件事情是最恰當的然後他的教育訓練要怎麼樣去完成然後他未來工作的這個地點是在什麼樣的地方那對於這一些病人或家屬的一個協助的話是從醫院到家庭是一連貫的那要怎麼樣來執行這個可能都我們要進一步去做規劃跟研究"},{"start":18798.522,"end":18819.253,"text":"好,所以這個部分真的很需要請部長持續來努力那我們再往下看其實今天所討論的很多很多的細節真的都需要增加我們的這個醫療的資源所以我們增加醫療資源最重要就是要投資國民的健康那這些真的需要各界共同來支持"},{"start":18819.933,"end":18838.282,"text":"有更好更完整的醫療資源我們才有辦法守護這一代的健康也能夠照顧到下一代那最後一個部分就是今天林啟有提到的就是有家長在陳請這個學校在執行這個健康檢查的時候碰到一些困難"},{"start":18839.082,"end":18867.976,"text":"那這一部分教育部已經有同意要照辦那主要的問題是在於說目前在小朋友尤其是小朋友一年級跟四年級在開學的時候他們就要從學校得到一個健康檢查的整個確認他的健康狀態那在執行的時候有一些是外包那有一些是由學校去聘請從外面的進來的這個醫師來執行那造成處理上的落差"},{"start":18868.456,"end":18869.176,"text":"接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢"},{"start":18902.935,"end":18929.066,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長好 來有請薛部長委員好部長好部長辛苦啦但我還是要講從那個食安一直到食安的問題我都盡量善意提醒展現魄力立即應變錯誤修正然後是全要統一啦"},{"start":18931.175,"end":18946.996,"text":"都島跟執行兩兆的情況之下有時候會因為一個案件之後搞得非常的模糊這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對包含思安"},{"start":18948.254,"end":18948.274,"text":"委員長"},{"start":18968.086,"end":18986.654,"text":"應該都要可以接受到這樣的一個考驗但是顯然這一次好像好像又落洞百出但我是從早上一直到現在還有這幾天看了一些資料我幾天跟部長來做討論也讓部長做參考很多人都說這一次又是深溫泉破洞我個人倒不是這麼認為"},{"start":18989.011,"end":19016.664,"text":"在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個"},{"start":19018.761,"end":19037.857,"text":"這一個我們公部門認定是在一個安全網的範圍裡面反而它是得到這個極盡的虐待我們渾然不知多到事後才知道這樣的情況這顯然是這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以政府存在的目的"},{"start":19038.496,"end":19059.226,"text":"然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了"},{"start":19061.4,"end":19072.893,"text":"有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了?這很奇怪的行為衛福部在109年"},{"start":19079.546,"end":19097.775,"text":"來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府、社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但"},{"start":19100.035,"end":19122.626,"text":"這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動?對不對?完全沒有啟動嗎?這位幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎?也沒有了。也沒有。所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題?部長應該有掌握了吧?"},{"start":19127.648,"end":19148.725,"text":"這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容脆弱家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情"},{"start":19156.072,"end":19158.518,"text":"這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?"},{"start":19165.449,"end":19186.513,"text":"這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置有持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年6月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政"},{"start":19196.189,"end":19199.259,"text":"都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?"},{"start":19202.528,"end":19227.754,"text":"這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個漢市應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友"},{"start":19228.314,"end":19244.412,"text":"我覺得不管從社工、醫師、老師、處理長、社會警政多方來看我覺得這事情就不會去發生嘛所以哪一個環節出問題坦白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我其實好像沒有聽到重點"},{"start":19247.495,"end":19254.303,"text":"請回應哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來"},{"start":19263.032,"end":19287.261,"text":"那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就是新北市社福中心在接受這個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養"},{"start":19288.783,"end":19305.73,"text":"但是後來他生下來之後這媽媽就不見了就不見了所以社福中心的社工的工作人員就把整個的這個經歷放在說怎麼樣完成這個收養"},{"start":19307.219,"end":19324.007,"text":"所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子"},{"start":19324.947,"end":19342.348,"text":"小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟"},{"start":19345.896,"end":19364.485,"text":"然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說"},{"start":19367.466,"end":19390.211,"text":"我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候,沒有把重點放對。重點是要保護小孩子,重點不是說要去取得這個同意,因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧,這個也沒有評估啊。這是第一點。那第二點的話是..."},{"start":19397.934,"end":19414.476,"text":"那第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估,也就是說他有兩度嘛,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽嘛,他要去委託嘛,後來就結案掉。"},{"start":19415.737,"end":19439.784,"text":"後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後她仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好 第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中她的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫她照顧了一年"},{"start":19441.136,"end":19457.489,"text":"這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧"},{"start":19458.61,"end":19464.452,"text":"那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼"},{"start":19475.121,"end":19489.293,"text":"本來就是這樣子那這在我的我們的那個那個報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構的來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的"},{"start":19490.074,"end":19491.895,"text":"對於這個保姆去做這個監督管理"},{"start":19514.318,"end":19536.628,"text":"所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉"},{"start":19538.058,"end":19562.408,"text":"所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統"},{"start":19563.228,"end":19586.141,"text":"所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制"},{"start":19587.762,"end":19603.019,"text":"所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、不尊重監護人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?"},{"start":19604.537,"end":19620.338,"text":"這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多了這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異"},{"start":19622.28,"end":19633.854,"text":"然後我們的政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是就是如此就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為"},{"start":19637.658,"end":19656.164,"text":"所以我要把這個線這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷了以後不要再發生事情了對 我知道部長在12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛未來有出養必要不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作全部交給民間團體來執行嘛對不對這是你們的第一點嘛對你覺得這樣夠嗎對前面對啦後面應該不是對吧這至少要做到的啦"},{"start":19664.141,"end":19666.822,"text":"我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?"},{"start":19682.811,"end":19703.788,"text":"跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做"},{"start":19705.458,"end":19728.149,"text":"他還是覺得維持現在的是比較好那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純用民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的"},{"start":19729.409,"end":19754.545,"text":"這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法OK啊,我們也可以請趙委來排這樣的,擴大了全國各縣市的這樣的一個會議嘛對不對,看哪幾個縣市在反對嘛從什麼時候開始反對一直到現在,出了這個事情看他還要不要持續反對嘛跟這個有關的對,沒有錯啊,應該可以吧我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關"},{"start":19755.646,"end":19764.579,"text":"是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就很清楚嘛。另外一件事情啦齁,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不能而已嗎?"},{"start":19766.636,"end":19789.439,"text":"部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養人申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養人收養許可相關的課程內容、資格、審查的標準都一致不會有機構落差然後目前"},{"start":19790.66,"end":19812.376,"text":"台灣目前是由各收養的機構執行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧"},{"start":19813.499,"end":19819.863,"text":"所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...這是有沒有在你這次討論的重點?已經有納進來已經有納進來的?在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法"},{"start":19837.031,"end":19862.497,"text":"在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法原嗎"},{"start":19866.158,"end":19890.671,"text":"就剛剛講說有一些這個評估會不會又22個縣市又不一樣的標準我們當然會建立統一的標準那這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準建立嘛 立主的立嘛"},{"start":19894.059,"end":19899.453,"text":"我剛剛講的這幾點好不好是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁"},{"start":19900.819,"end":19925.626,"text":"我提供的幾個點還是我想希望從部長這邊可以更加重視的是不是也列在你們的檢討報告裡面然後做一個具體的回應啦好不好自己要開那個會我覺得勢在必行嘛越快越好嘛網上有願意排最好對不對如果沒有的話看要再找誰趕快來召開嘛我們也來參與嘛看什麼狀況嘛大家一起來面對共同來討論解決嘛可不可以好謝謝"},{"start":19927.284,"end":19938.554,"text":"好 謝謝劉建國委員的質詢那有關耳哨全法的修法請衛福部加快腳步就是把相關的法案送進衛福部來審議接下來我們請武麗華委員進行質詢謝謝主席 有請部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":19956.318,"end":19964.646,"text":"委員好部長好部長您應該聽過原家中心對它的全名是原住民族家庭服務中心是"},{"start":19966.195,"end":19988.986,"text":"這個原家中心它是原民會所設置的已經設置26年而且現在都會加原鄉已經有64處的原家中心那過去還沒有被納入社會安全網的時候其實大家都會說原家中心跟社安網的關係叫做網中網"},{"start":19990.146,"end":20018.003,"text":"因為他設立的一個目標就是要去針對我們部落原住民福利資訊跟資源整合不足所形成的障礙那些被漏接的地方像危險管沒燒的地方他等於是在部落去擔負起這樣的一個責任首先我要特別感謝衛福部因為過去由原民會來設置其實經費很拮据很辛苦"},{"start":20018.703,"end":20041.263,"text":"那謝謝,我們是預定在2025年要納入社安網對不對?應該是明年吧今年會先納入今年是送到行政院了嗎?對那已經合訂了嗎?還沒還沒合訂,那目前在衛福部嗎?送到行政院已經送進行政院了嗎?還沒"},{"start":20044.037,"end":20069.943,"text":"還在修正計畫嗎那今天我來就是要來去做一些提醒為什麼因為我今天我看到我們的專報裡面有社安網第二期計畫112年針對今年度的資源不見情形重要推動成果策進作為我都沒有看見關於原家中心轉型納入社安網的一個說明那我為什麼要這樣講因為"},{"start":20072.717,"end":20088.209,"text":"其實有很多的母機構、很多的原家中心的督導、很多的社工的這些教授專家還有這一些關心的人,他們跟我陳情很久了"},{"start":20089.19,"end":20102.397,"text":"因為他們很高興大家都高興原家中心終於要納入社安網不但經費可以變多人力的配置應該也會變多我們都很高興但是大家憂心的是什麼"},{"start":20103.413,"end":20103.593,"text":"主席"},{"start":20121.934,"end":20149.322,"text":"我們做原建法其實最重要的納入的精神就是文化安全文化敏感度很重要那如果我們納入一般縣市政府的體制下他會變成說他的工作模式像一般在社福中心然後針對那些脆弱家庭然後比較針對個案開案可是呢原家中心這二三十年他在地方你應該很了解他是在部落"},{"start":20150.422,"end":20179.514,"text":"他是整個部落的關係他不會針對個案他會知道個案在部落裡面他跟親友的關係然後他擔負一個很重要的使命對於很多我們的政策福利的政策也好他都可以用在地的語言親近的語言去代表政府來去做這些宣導所以他這樣的一個工作模式我們就是比較要提醒因為目前問原民會也好"},{"start":20180.958,"end":20181.238,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20203.208,"end":20212.867,"text":"可是如果制度國家的制度一進來介入又把他破壞掉這個是大家憂心的還有他的開案指標的訂定"},{"start":20214.295,"end":20239.241,"text":"他到底他的KPI怎麼樣還有他社工人力的配置那轉型的之後他的職能教育訓練怎麼做等等我在這個地方就是想要請衛福部幫忙一下因為很多人關心而且呢看不到看不見也沒有一個具體的說明所以我就代為在這個地方提出這樣的提醒那因為目前是修正嘛"},{"start":20239.981,"end":20267.793,"text":"還沒有送願所以是不是可以針對我以上的這一些代表所提出來的這些憂慮兩週內可以制定一些詳細的回答嗎兩週內去回答當然是可以但是這回答可能不完全為什麼因為現在方向上面就是要把原家中心納入到社安網是這個是決定大家也都樂見其成第二個"},{"start":20268.553,"end":20291.692,"text":"因為這個原家中心納入之後要怎麼樣去做處理的話這一個整個的設計是在園民會是所以我們要看這園民會它的設計是如何因為你們是審查單位啊對我們部會之間我們不會去做那他們提修正計畫是什麼意思就是我們建辦法"},{"start":20293.133,"end":20305.87,"text":"然後交給行政院去做審查所以我們是把各部會的這些意見他想要做的所以你們的意思就是說會完全尊重原民會所提出來的規劃對"},{"start":20308.412,"end":20328.789,"text":"最後是行政院那邊去做決定內容是由行政院來做決定這是第二點那第三點的話那委員提到說這樣會不會干擾到這一個原來的那說這個社安網說交給縣市政府是因為現在這整個的系統如果要納進來的話這裡面"},{"start":20331.511,"end":20349.745,"text":"就變成他是一個社福中心的角色那社福中心他有公權力行使的問題那你如果說現在當然原價中心所以這個就是我們要提醒的地方對啊但是沒有辦法你如果要有公權力行使的話你必須要自具備公權力行使的資格"},{"start":20351.594,"end":20374.375,"text":"這是沒有辦法所以不能說我要希望說能夠有好處那部長這個就是我下一個部分下一個部分要講的問題因為我們就知道會有這樣的原因就是說按照規定按照規定我舉一個例子因為今天是來討論那我就講這個凱凱事件我以原住民來講這是真實的案例"},{"start":20375.756,"end":20386.485,"text":"這個孩子呢109年10月出生那目前是4歲那他的父母因為養不起所以他的孩子就分別交給不同的親戚那這個親戚呢"},{"start":20388.356,"end":20406.364,"text":"他在凱凱出生幾個月的時候他就帶回去照顧一直到今天可是等到這個孩子不是凱凱我口誤但是這個孩子他3歲的時候他就決定要做收養也去跟法院申請要收養"},{"start":20407.344,"end":20424.53,"text":"但是呢地方法院回覆他就是要按照一個收出養的這個辦法所以這個兒少收養認可的調查法是評估報告好結果呢他呢建議他要去做機構的媒合"},{"start":20425.629,"end":20445.283,"text":"可是他說他這個兩次去跟這個媒合中心聯繫他最後他覺得他沒有辦法因為他是六親等以外他是六親等以外所以被駁回那又後來呢媒合中心說要到媒合中心可是他知道媒合中心不會配給他"},{"start":20446.044,"end":20465.731,"text":"所以他又希望地方法院判給他可是目前就是第二次駁回還是一樣法院上面載明寫著還是要依照兒少法的規定就是第16條因為他沒有符合那現在我就是要跟您說這個就是很麻煩的地方因為他是布農族"},{"start":20466.611,"end":20492.694,"text":"這個布農族他們是一個家族、氏族的一個概念我浪費一點點時間跟您說明一下每一個族群他都有不同的照顧模式那這個布農族他們是這樣他們是同一個家族可以分散到臺東、南投、高雄可是部長我跟您說當他們殺豬的時候他們同一個家名叫這個家族他就算殺豬的時候"},{"start":20494.295,"end":20512.857,"text":"他是高雄人他要分到台東的親人分到南投的親人跟他隔壁的鄰居不是同一個家族就算是隔壁鄰居也分不到豬肉他們是這樣子去確保他們的親屬關係那我現在要說的就是這個的確是他的家人"},{"start":20514.636,"end":20530.789,"text":"這個小孩的媽媽跟這個收養人他們的曾祖父曾祖母是親兄妹但是跟這個孩子就七親等就脫離了我們法制規定的六親等那現在偏偏要弄一個收出養的評估報告"},{"start":20531.909,"end":20550.041,"text":"那我就是希望說我們現在原件法都已經納入文化安全的概念是不是我們這個收出養的評估報告也要有文化安全的概念啊要修一下嘛至少要跟那些人講嘛是不是然後另外就是要檢討這個媒合機制為什麼這個家長很生氣"},{"start":20553.283,"end":20567.678,"text":"他說兩次都叫他要去跟媒合中心聯繫他就不要啊那我寧可不要我繼續照顧好了就算這個孩子沒有登記在我名下反正我就照顧到他長大他怎麼會願意孩子去給外面的人帶呢"},{"start":20568.559,"end":20583.782,"text":"可是按照法規就不行而且在部落裡面這些親戚是整個部落一起養這個孩子也不會出現問題所以我在這邊就是希望說這個部分我們原建法已經有納入文化安全所以呢我覺得該修的地方"},{"start":20584.202,"end":20608.164,"text":"就是檢討媒合的機制要有族群的一個概念進來收出養的評估報告也希望去做一個檢討好不好那所以因為時間到我是希望說第一個我希望衛福部就會同原民會啦兩週內就是將原家中心納入社安網提出一個衝擊影響評估報告過去的母機構陪伴二三十年怎麼辦"},{"start":20609.825,"end":20634.299,"text":"為了一個公權力這個是國家的制度我要講的就是這個其實每一個族群都有他不同的一個照顧模式我覺得我們要尊重如果我們一直在硬梆梆的法制底下去思考問題我們會把好不容易建立起來的東西又破壞掉那也希望這個報告裡面針對人力配置經費編制工作模式我希望兩週內就一起提出報告好不好"},{"start":20635.459,"end":20635.839,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":20665.896,"end":20667.117,"text":"好 有請部長委員好部長好部長在這個檢討這個政府的責任之前因為我有看到一個更大的危機因為我覺得就是社安網正在瓦解中所以想要請教部長您認同嗎不太認同"},{"start":20686.485,"end":20715.244,"text":"不太認同,好,為什麼我要這樣講,我想要跟您說的就是部長,社安網不只是政府、社福單位或是案家,更重要的還有我們全國18600多名,這是111年的資料啦18600多名的社工的專業跟熱忱,讓我們全國的社安網撐起來但這次的事件也有可能讓好不容易打造的社安網一夕間崩潰,這是我的憂慮"},{"start":20716.605,"end":20728.878,"text":"也是為什麼我剛剛提到我覺得社安網正在瓦解的原因因為這次的事件也造成社工界的集體心理創傷請教部長這個部分您覺得要怎麼處理"},{"start":20730.832,"end":20751.071,"text":"兩個部分,第一個部分對於這個涉案的這個社工本身來講因為他到底是否是有刑事責任這個是一件事,但是在處理的過程當中給他參考,這的確是非常的不妥第二個,其他的社工人員,我們是非常支持的"},{"start":20752.733,"end":20779.99,"text":"我們不方便評論好 謝謝部長我要講的事情是針對這個結構性的問題社工界長期以來就是有這個三高、三缺以及一低的問題也就是我們的高風險、我們的高案量、高壓力然後缺督導、缺合作、缺資源以及偏低的薪資條件更別提之前常常有新聞媒體報導也有這種薪資回捐的漏息"},{"start":20781.071,"end":20803.914,"text":"並且也有研究指出社工系畢業生投入社工者大概是只有五成就業三年後近三成離開我們的社工圈留任者又有三成可能要離開這個社工專業所以我剛剛講的事情也不是針對這個個案因為畢竟這是一個社會事件那我們只是透過這個個案來看我們社會上這個系統上有沒有問題"},{"start":20805.015,"end":20833.198,"text":"所以看起來這個社工的留任困難已經是一個結構性的問題是不是可以這麼說啦可以這麼說齁所以部長我認為我們應該要想辦法來重振我們的社工的這個士氣因為這一環是我們社安網裡面非常重要的一環對那我想這有兩點可以努力的方向跟部長分享也請教部長有沒有其他的想法喔我想有兩點努力的方向分別是當然就是提高我們的薪資喔"},{"start":20834.119,"end":20859.938,"text":"以及提升專業的認同所以我想當然一個求財管道這種多元求財這個當然是不在話下但我覺得主要是這兩點所以想要請教部長這個所謂社工新店的折合率有沒有機會再往上調高一些我知道去年大概9月的時候有調高過一次剛剛委員提到兩點其實都非常正確"},{"start":20861.004,"end":20880.503,"text":"那第一個是這一個薪資能不能再繼續往上調這也是我們努力的方向不過這還是要看這整體國家財政的狀況如何好那請謝謝那就請部長在這部分也多多的琢磨當然那另外一點就是說提到他的形象的這部分的話"},{"start":20881.204,"end":20895.122,"text":"我覺得這幾年來對於社工的形象的提升應該是已經有一個程度了因為在稍早幾年大家連志工跟社工都分不清楚了"},{"start":20896.639,"end":20918.468,"text":"現在的話大概大家都了解社工就是社工而且社工他真的是肩負著非常重大部長謝謝喔拍著我懂你的意思但是我只是想說再加強這塊你們檢討完有沒有可以做更多的地方因為我們知道這個如果社工人員認同他社工專業生涯後他投入工作可以獲得成就感就比較不會產生職業的怠惰嘛"},{"start":20918.988,"end":20940.203,"text":"所以我其實這個問題我不是要您解釋過去有怎麼樣進展我是想說發生這個事件之後還有沒有你們覺得可以做得更好的地方更多的地方呢當然這永遠都有這個努力的空間啦比方說剛剛提到薪資的這個部分那這個就逐步要去依照我們能夠負擔的這個財政狀況去做這個提升啦"},{"start":20945.086,"end":20966.494,"text":"好 謝謝部長我聽起來是沒有對於這一件這個專業認同可能要回去再思考在下一次開會或檢討會議有沒有比較具體可行的執行的行動方案要不然現在聽起來是比較模糊我們都知道往這一去可是可能要透過你們的專業還有你們跨部會的整合找出真正可以動作的這個執行方案那我也有去了解一下"},{"start":20968.615,"end":20988.327,"text":"這幾年都會有去了解一下這幾年有一些社工比如說私的社工他不太願意加入社安網他們有說為什麼因為他們說社安網的年資無法採認所以導致可能在這個經驗傳承上他過去的累積的經驗他現在轉到社安網裡好像不會被採認請問想要請教部長有這個事情嗎"},{"start":20992.716,"end":21017.944,"text":"應該不會有這個事情不過如果有這方面的一個問題的話我是希望就是說能夠直接跟衛福部這邊來對接我們瞭解真正問題是是好沒有問題那也請衛福部稍微再去了解一下有沒有這樣的狀況不然這個有經驗的社工如果沒有辦法傳承的話的確會讓這個新的社工走損率也很高也不利於我們社會安全網的部件那再來"},{"start":21019.987,"end":21039.975,"text":"部長你們昨天才提供這個虐童案的時序表雖然晚到但是總比不到來的好所以本席想要請教這個首次兒童權利國家公約報告的時候許多學者專家提到家外安置的狀況所以在會議上有總結提出這個機制是要以家庭為單位做進行"},{"start":21041.596,"end":21065.683,"text":"那這個2019年的社家署也針對這個評估的內容開啟了家外安置兒少替代性照顧資源強化計畫的推動與執行希望能夠協助各個縣市在地評估小組是安置兒少的不同需求協助安置單位所需的資源也就是由縣市政府為首的在地評估小組在各地的"},{"start":21066.323,"end":21089.27,"text":"而邵安智忠．扮演一個中介的角色．然後再邀請不同的專家．例如藻寮、心理諮商．法務等等擔任委員．讓這個而邵的評估．可以更全面的關照那部長過去出養是由這個衛福部委託的社福機構執行評估．但這一次的專家會議決定未來出養由地方政府評估嘛那"},{"start":21090.406,"end":21117.265,"text":"也想要問請問部長是否過去有發生過機構和寄養家庭間為了利益問題而糾纏不清所以才要這樣修改沒有這是這一次我們發現的這個問題我們決定就一定要做這方面的修改因為每一個機構去統包一條龍的話的確容易發生問題是那部長未來出養決定是否也應該納入在地評估小組以及這個TBM也就是團體決策會議"},{"start":21122.038,"end":21136.268,"text":"這涉及兒消法的修法請問這個何時能夠提出修法的版本目前其實剛剛提到的委員提到這一點的話是不必等到那個兒權法的修正"},{"start":21137.833,"end":21156.028,"text":"至於委員問他說額群法的立法的一個進度的話那現在大概還在衛福部裡面因為我們這一次會有兩個法同時來進行一個是額群法一個是托育服務法、托育的專法那這兩個會同時進行"},{"start":21158.01,"end":21171.158,"text":"好 沒問題 請部長再繼續一點努力部長 針對這個虐童案件的致死案件上週三也有很多的縣市各個的社工團體發出聲明就是強烈譴責我們的主管機關也就是衛福部"},{"start":21175.02,"end":21192.519,"text":"沒有依照社政單位而效保護案件通報處理調查及處遇服務作業程序的規定在重大額內案件發生的30天內要完成這個調查報告請教部長是什麼原因讓您覺得可以不開會言商不做檢討報告"},{"start":21193.94,"end":21213.425,"text":"是因為當初我有看到新聞您說是因為小孩已經死了就可以不用開報告不用開嗎我沒有這樣講根本報告齁其實從那個處理事件的流程是第一方要做通報這是第一點第二個地方就要去做檢討的會議開這個檢討會議在10天之內檢討會議之後兩週之內要把檢討報告給衛福部"},{"start":21222.423,"end":21249.008,"text":"所以您的意思是說30天沒有完成報告是因為地方政府沒有開嗎?中央是沒有說一定要去開這個檢討會議的是地方一定要開地方把這個檢討報告送過來之後的話我們如果發現說這中間是可能有問題我們才去開然後請地方來說明所以這個程序的規定不包含衛福部需要在30天內就是完成這個調查報告應該沒有這個"},{"start":21251.277,"end":21263.75,"text":"因為您這樣的說法很像是司法調查沒有問題但是我們的主責單位沒有職責去了解整個流程過程當中有沒有一些行政上面的需要改進的地方"},{"start":21264.775,"end":21288.045,"text":"因為這才是重點因為依規定我是覺得該檢討就要檢討但是沒有檢討現在亡羊補牢後面開了這個專家會議那當然其中還有一項你們提到說要求增加這個訪視率問題是現在各個縣市政府也都是有缺社工的情況請問衛福部要怎麼達成這個目標有沒有任何的配套措施"},{"start":21288.785,"end":21308.352,"text":"這當然會跟地方去做討論不過跟委員報告我們今天所提的這個增加紡釋率是有對象的就是哪一類的個案就必須要增加紡釋率它的原因是這樣子像這種惡意的保母做出這種令人髮指的這種行為"},{"start":21310.314,"end":21323.853,"text":"這種惡意他要掩飾的話是相對是容易的因為我們的社工可能都相信說人是善良的但是如果有多重的反噬的話那可能他就跑不掉"},{"start":21325.191,"end":21341.386,"text":"社會福利部長因為你們的這個檢討報告裡面也是簡短的只提到這句話所以我想要表達事情是你們要再更細的去去針對去把定出這個作業準則不然你也會累死地方也根本不夠的人力甚至是你可能要考量要怎麼樣給地方資源"},{"start":21342.607,"end":21358.721,"text":"對 當然就是要配套對 甚至就是所謂的所以我才問這個問題是說你們有沒有泥鞋配套這也是為什麼我們覺得這個今天的檢討報告不夠完善我們要退回的原因因為這個東西就是太太模糊了所以我只是想要提醒部長是說這個部分的確"},{"start":21359.682,"end":21380.883,"text":"我們要想辦法增加這個社工的量能或是他的待遇當然也需要增加他的這個仿式也應該要更重質而不完全是重量啦因為你完全是重量的話完全的人力也不足你量能也不足喔所以希望我們衛福部也可以針對這個部分好好的把配套措施都準備好下次再提交報告給大家"},{"start":21382.352,"end":21402.149,"text":"那再來最後就是在後面還有我想要說部長我們最近整理了三年社家屬的公務預算在這個111年到113年的社會福利基金的預算發現看似兒少相關的預算也不少但是針對這種有狀況受虐或是需要出養的兒童這個經費好像不太夠也並不多"},{"start":21404.631,"end":21424.989,"text":"例如你們委辦計畫中的這個兒童及少年收養中心資訊業務計畫每年大概是127萬左右委辦內容當然大部分是社福機構團體保存及建立這個資訊提供尋親、心理、醫療、法律等資訊的轉介業務當然還有其他的包含家外安置、短期治療等等"},{"start":21426.35,"end":21451.713,"text":"這個我是覺得這個經費是不是不太充裕那陳建仁院長也有在3月14號的時候說要成立這個食安檢查的負責的這個基金預算專款專用那我想一樣的我在思考事情是不是我今天想要要求衛福部是不是儘速也啟動研議把兒少保護業務的基金業務獨立出來這個也要成立一個獨立的中央兒少保護基金你覺得能否做到"},{"start":21453.254,"end":21477.213,"text":"這個我們會跟行政那邊來做請示因為依照財政紀律法的話如果要成立基金的話就有一定的要求是沒關係部長這部分我會提案今天也已經提案了希望說你們可以好好的跨黨派研議這樣子的案件是不是可以用這樣處理因為我覺得第一個預算足夠之外這樣子也可以更加透明更加讓大家知道說把這個費用用在哪裡"},{"start":21478.496,"end":21487.411,"text":"那最後再來就是有反映這個跟部長也討論有關社會安全網中去年底這個發生國中割井案的事情"},{"start":21488.188,"end":21509.165,"text":"那後來你們當然有一個結論我們看到一開始也覺得有一個結論就是推動成立北部的少家法院這個消息對沒錯這個我知道這個跟司法院是有關但是我們本來是覺得是一個好消息但是最終我們認為說他說真樸少年調查保護人力不足所以"},{"start":21509.886,"end":21523.424,"text":"成立北部的少家專業法院這是刻不容緩可是我這裡覺得很奇怪為什麼他只重視北部難道沒有中部、南部嗎那這樣的建議我知道你們是有共同開會的喔那這樣是有透過你們的建議是有經過衛福部的建議嗎"},{"start":21525.178,"end":21539.549,"text":"我想這個是屬於司法院的業務我不知道他當時的一個決定為什麼是北部所以你們沒有提供這方面的建議這個會議行政院跟司法院有一起開會"},{"start":21540.51,"end":21561.596,"text":"那現在是司法院先提出先做北部的兒少家庭加司法院那接下來會再看說是否要往中部或是南部設立是那這個部分我特別提出來是希望你們也關注我們中部和南部的需求因為這個事情不會只有發生在北部好不好那也請你們回去把這個建議帶回行政院跟司法院"},{"start":21562.486,"end":21581.575,"text":"那再來我也想要今天是問好問滿嘛對不對我迅速最後最後好不好這個社安網的部分最近我也想要另外跳脫剛剛原本大家都在討論這個相關的案件其實我想要補充的事情就是最近有關我們青少年心理困擾這幾年也是越來越嚴重"},{"start":21582.515,"end":21587.417,"text":"所以在2016到2021的這個資料裡面就顯示15歲到30歲的這個心神科相關的診斷者從22萬人成長到29萬人而且這個成長率整體也是4.8成長到7%所以整體成長率有到47%WHO也把憂鬱症列為21世紀人類健康的頭號殺手"},{"start":21605.003,"end":21632.069,"text":"所以我想要講的事情是我想要請衛福部喔你們去年有提出這個年輕族群心理健康支持方案我覺得很棒那我也支持可是每人有三次的這個免費心理諮商可是我們知道他很快就沒了而且量能不足喔所以想要請問因為現在也正在編列這個114年的預算想要請問這個部分有沒有可能把明年的這個次數量能增加到從三次增加到至少六次呢"},{"start":21633.475,"end":21656.856,"text":"這我們還需要再進一步評估因為總是預算還是有限的是但是希望部長可以好好評估因為這個東西已經是社會大家的很重要也是社會安全網很重要的一塊那再來社會安全網很重要的一塊就是這個社區心理衛生中心目前是有48處到明年預計要71處請問明年是否會可以如值完成"},{"start":21657.416,"end":21684.848,"text":"我們會盡力啦這是一個很明確的一個方向我們大概有信心可以來達成好那最後一個就是學校裡面現在以大專院校來講每1200名的學生僅配一名的這個專業輔導人員而且所以平均每個學生可能都要一個月才有可能諮商的到排隊才有諮商的到所以我想要請問你們是否可以贊成下修把這個比例下修"},{"start":21685.39,"end":21690.572,"text":"教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育"},{"start":21706.88,"end":21725.738,"text":"OK好那我以上質詢完畢那希望喔今天質詢是希望說我們透過一個個案雖然大家說他覺得是個案可是他也可能存在的系統裡面的問題所以希望不要從個案然後到處推尾謝責我們好好檢討解決問題不要讓個案變通案通案變系統性的危機好謝謝大家好我們謝謝廖偉祥委員的質詢"},{"start":21734.491,"end":21737.392,"text":"好 那接下來我們請楊耀元進行質詢謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 我們請薛部長"},{"start":21751.601,"end":21769.566,"text":"委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個"},{"start":21771.141,"end":21796.793,"text":"用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的"},{"start":21798.214,"end":21819.12,"text":"那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良 對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了"},{"start":21826.4,"end":21850.538,"text":"這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告"},{"start":21852.867,"end":21868.456,"text":"就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診"},{"start":21878.382,"end":21901.5,"text":"事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實"},{"start":21905.936,"end":21920.404,"text":"沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代"},{"start":21925.063,"end":21946.997,"text":"部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況"},{"start":21953.889,"end":21967.779,"text":"為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的"},{"start":21972.603,"end":21993.908,"text":"對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是"},{"start":21995.57,"end":22014.571,"text":"偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案"},{"start":22015.939,"end":22037.29,"text":"然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的"},{"start":22040.161,"end":22065.369,"text":"該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是"},{"start":22068.03,"end":22087.64,"text":"我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解"},{"start":22089.836,"end":22113.763,"text":"以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下"},{"start":22115.052,"end":22139.789,"text":"昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息"},{"start":22141.144,"end":22146.828,"text":"對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理,不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。"},{"start":22168.984,"end":22195.829,"text":"但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇"},{"start":22197.168,"end":22208.748,"text":"假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間"},{"start":22210.978,"end":22231.929,"text":"所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢"},{"start":22233.837,"end":22259.172,"text":"我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就說失聯了"},{"start":22261.988,"end":22264.832,"text":"家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。"},{"start":22276.465,"end":22301.745,"text":"那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說得很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這就算了就算了"},{"start":22305.067,"end":22317.926,"text":"但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖．法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚"},{"start":22323.379,"end":22347.208,"text":"部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆"},{"start":22348.632,"end":22370.775,"text":"那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須"},{"start":22373.093,"end":22394.377,"text":"對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個老母那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":22398.898,"end":22421.229,"text":"因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私利的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是"},{"start":22422.594,"end":22444.685,"text":"保姆沒有換?保姆不換,事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員,我們這個案子其實還沒有結案"},{"start":22446.026,"end":22468.341,"text":"我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規司法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?"},{"start":22470.723,"end":22490.738,"text":"全面性的往往所有的所有的措施都站在兒童利益來做出發點我覺得這個才是最重要的好謝謝部長謝謝主席好我們謝謝呃楊耀委員的質詢好接下來我們請陳英委員進行質詢好謝謝主席呃麻煩請請部長"},{"start":22502.256,"end":22502.536,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22523.501,"end":22539.941,"text":"即將要研議健保第6類國人若是經濟弱勢者將全額補助健保費原住民年齡的部分本系有要求降到55歲當時我在質詢之後部長有特別指示相關單位來跟我說明不過"},{"start":22541.402,"end":22562.994,"text":"我一直哭哭等候到現在沒有任何一個人有來過我的辦公室找我那今天社家署有來我想了解一下就是這個中間到底是你們發生了什麼事情還是部長要幫他解釋嗎"},{"start":22565.185,"end":22570.388,"text":"因為我們內部還在收集一些資料跟跑一些資料因為這個要跟健保署那邊去做一些資料的勾結"},{"start":22594.224,"end":22597.346,"text":"那我想如果你有這樣子的問題那撥一通電話稍微先說明一下很困難嗎?"},{"start":22615.781,"end":22616.681,"text":"長者的助聽器"},{"start":22643.089,"end":22643.629,"text":"聽力退化長者"},{"start":22662.438,"end":22679.165,"text":"提供購置注定器的補助那當時部長也是很清楚的我們有講好3個月研議的時間那現在算一算快半年了那研議那麼久也一樣都沒有跟我說明進度那我也不知道中間又發生什麼事了"},{"start":22680.705,"end":22702.881,"text":"這個部分的話應該是主要負責的單位應該是長照師當然有一部分的話是社交署這邊要去處理的這個部分的話我想我會回去再責成他們就是說今天是禮拜一這個禮拜我請他們去跟委員做報告"},{"start":22707.578,"end":22730.275,"text":"部長是這樣的因為選舉前我有要求的事項當然也請各個單位可以自己整理一下雖然是新的任期但是在這邊所有要求的事項並沒有借其不敘省的問題欠債要還錢所以請大家要主動特別部長都有交代了你們要把部長放在眼裡"},{"start":22731.516,"end":22746.805,"text":"好那再來一樣就是說在去年5月我主持了這個援助民族健康法的審查那在許多的委員、機關及民間團體共同的努力之下好不容易終於三讀通過了"},{"start":22747.745,"end":22763.543,"text":"那我想部長是說跟部長講的是說原件法通過之後呢該做的事我們要趕快趕上進度因為在這一次選舉當中我們很多的候選人有那個很瞭解立法院的候選人"},{"start":22765.265,"end":22780.741,"text":"也有就完全不懂立法院的候選人都在大肆的唱衰這個原件法所以原件法的這個條文內應該做的事情我希望能夠趕快完成這個部分是請部長"},{"start":22781.662,"end":22805.554,"text":"跟我們報告,第一個就是說要設專責的單位,我們規劃是在查護室底下那目前這個案子正在跟人事總署這邊好,因為講到這個就是說因為當然依照這個原件法的第二條的第二項規定中央主管機關應指定專責單位來辦理原住民的健康事務那過去我也希望說"},{"start":22806.754,"end":22830.44,"text":"希望它是三級機關那至少說這個單位是屬或是私但是因為討論的結果最後是以科來收藏那雖然我不滿意這樣的結果但是我們為了不要再耽誤原建法通過的時程所以也就勉強接受先讓它上路未來再找適當時機我們再讓它繼續升級那我想請問就是說好部長你說這個科的籌備狀況"},{"start":22836.161,"end":22852.053,"text":"因為去年我在質詢的時候部長有表示說年底嘛年底的時候年底前會成立目前正在跟行政院爭取這個預算的緣額要成立一個科但是他"},{"start":22853.414,"end":22853.995,"text":"請問您有親自跟人事總署的那個"},{"start":22881.198,"end":22881.518,"text":"我們會考慮這一點"},{"start":22902.904,"end":22924.937,"text":"那再來就是去年10月的時候我同時也問了這個原住民族健康研究中心的籌備狀況因為當時今年年度的預算已經送交立法院了我非常擔心說他沒有經費那但是就是說沒經費就沒有辦法如期在國衛院下成立這個研究中心"},{"start":22926.098,"end":22948.933,"text":"後來部長也有答應然後想辦法籌措經費來處理也非常謝謝部長那我們在去年底有一起去參加那個揭牌然後就是大家其實都很關心原住民族健康研究中心現在運作情形跟未來的運作模式那部長是不是可以跟大家說明一下"},{"start":22949.673,"end":22954.076,"text":"這個硬體的部分是已經成立了我們從科發基金那邊撥了一千萬給國務院來執行所以預算暫時也是有來源的"},{"start":22969.364,"end":22983.497,"text":"那至於說這個組織的部分的話我想是他們的副院長去擔任這個主任那也有一位執行秘書來幫忙那這個工作小組的這一個運作的話"},{"start":22985.459,"end":22999.395,"text":"我們會成立這個工作小組而且會定期來討論有關於這個中心的如何來運作這一個部分的話大概都已經在進行當中了"},{"start":23002.149,"end":23017.182,"text":"首要之急有關於類似的資料庫的建置我們整個原住民族健康研究的方向再請你們多加油在未來這個"},{"start":23019.043,"end":23040.916,"text":"原住民族健康研究中心的這些研究項目還有民間團體的建議我希望在這個整個中間的這個溝通管道他是可以很暢通的因為畢竟他們都是在第一線的工作者所以他們很清楚知道這個原住民族在地方的這些健康照顧的情形存在哪些問題需要去解決的"},{"start":23041.516,"end":23065.305,"text":"所以我希望大家可以廣納意見他們的意見跟想法包含4月份的時候我們就會召開這個中心的一個政策會報對於剛剛委員所提到的這些未來要研究的方向等等這些的話會在那裡去討論"},{"start":23066.906,"end":23095.259,"text":"好那最後本席有一個建議就是在我之前上一屆主持這個原建法審查的過程當中我有請你們盤點就是所有有關這個原住民族健康照護政策的經費那未來呢每年就是請你們可以把這個前一年的這個支出的經費做一個統計避免那些這個唱衰這個原建法的人們"},{"start":23096.34,"end":23100.045,"text":"我希望部長可以就是說來大力我們用行動來證明他絕對不是一個空殼他對我們原住民的健康是相當有幫助的一個法案"},{"start":23115.307,"end":23119.631,"text":"我相信這個年報以後未來是即時的年報就不會像以前還隔個三四年那麼久"},{"start":23140.829,"end":23156.064,"text":"第三個就是研究計畫如果說在這個研究中心所提出來或是審核通過的研究計畫那我們也會把它公開所以大概就三個我們會把這個資訊把它透明化好 謝謝部長"},{"start":23160.516,"end":23164.198,"text":"主席 各位大家好 是不是還是先就教育我們這個薛部長薛部長請"},{"start":23189.082,"end":23208.378,"text":"委員好部長今天大家討論了很多其實這個裡面你們的報告裡面也承認這個不是社會安全網漏接沒有漏接的問題是社會安全網本身破動不安全這個是社會安全網不安全的問題"},{"start":23210.319,"end":23230.464,"text":"他也是相當嚴重的問題我們都以為只要安全網進入這個安全體系我們接起來就好了沒想到接起來那個網破洞讓他摔死了所以在這裡我們覺得在這個部分非要一條人命才讓我們看見這個安全網是有破洞的這個代價太慘痛那所以今天在這裡呢我們也發現說大家在檢討這個說出養媒合機構的社工的問題"},{"start":23238.166,"end":23260.508,"text":"那收出養媒和機構大家對於社工的檢討大概比如說在這個機制方面大家都會強調說這個要增加這個訪視的頻率啦還有這個提高訪視頻率以外提升對訪視案件的敏感度大家都有提到敏感度可是大家也都知道說什麼是敏感度敏感度要怎麼提升"},{"start":23261.923,"end":23287.542,"text":"對不對對那這一個部分的話其實有兩個重點第一個重點就是要多重的去做這個訪視所謂的訪視頻率並不是單一的社工要本來一個月去一次變成一個月去兩次這不是主要重點重點是說那你負責的這些單位的話要怎麼樣去double check"},{"start":23288.391,"end":23308.083,"text":"對於這種有惡意的你沒有靠這樣子的社工的總量是固定的那你多做一個double check那就是排擠了另外一個房市的時間他的社工的時間也是固定的所以這一個所謂的增加房市的這一個部分的話要去做double check的對象的話必須要明確"},{"start":23311.504,"end":23328.628,"text":"總量人數是固定的公時也是固定的那他的案件數其實是很多的你這樣是有排擠那我跟你講因為我們找過專業的像是彭婉如文教基金會他們負責保姆和這個社區托育的主管人員請示"},{"start":23329.648,"end":23347.924,"text":"他們其實一直也反映了幾件事情第一個 訪視的次數固然是可以增加好了你要double check也沒有關係但是如果訪視的品質沒有提升只是讓訪視人員這樣子大家疲於奔命增加工作時間增加次數double再check觀察的時間"},{"start":23349.225,"end":23378.488,"text":"會不會相對減少那重點也不是你去幾次有沒有double check時間以外品質大家都知道品質而訪視的品質高低在於如何察覺風險遇見風險所以我們講其實我問你這個問題就是第二個如何增加訪視員的敏感度啊對啊這個部分的話當然第一個要透過教育新人第二個的話我們必須用一個比較系統化的一個做法"},{"start":23380.36,"end":23397.477,"text":"這個我們的社工的教育訓練這本來都是專業的這大家都理論上都有專業啊但是呢理論上是這樣沒有不對但是你看你們社家屬提供的這個居家特育服務中心訪視輔導工作指引你去看你的指引的內容"},{"start":23398.478,"end":23424.004,"text":"訪視前、訪視中、訪視後訪視中你叫人家到現場說你告訴人家表明身份表明這次訪視的目的要熱誠、要積極、要真誠訪視的時候口齒要清晰、不疾不徐訪視的時候要跟保姆、居家服務員要信任關係稱呼要適當不能叫他阿姨要叫大姊這叫適當嗎有一般性的社會會談進入主題性的會談"},{"start":23425.505,"end":23450.106,"text":"然後要跟受訪者推對象為中心然後要尊重、接納、同理受訪者這個保姆要同理他透過生活化的舉例提出專業的知識的建議我的意思是說看你們的指引這樣就可以增加敏感度嗎沒有這個部分的話只是一部分因為你這邊所寫的是對於這個接受訪視的這些成人也就是保姆但是"},{"start":23451.192,"end":23454.993,"text":"沒有提到小孩子,你要去看小孩子這才是重點對啦,這本來就應該要看,但是保姆也很重要我現在再回饋你這個是我剛剛講的第一線的主管人員他們反映的,訪視的品質高低,要察覺風險"},{"start":23473.76,"end":23492.404,"text":"那他的敏感度其實要擴大訪視面向的廣度,還有透過提問探詢日常托育細節,流程確認,還有保姆的說辭是否為真,如果組織或訪員敷衍了事,只能看到表面和客觀事實。你說小孩第一次去看,你把他放在床上看,我跟你講這一個凱凱的個案,他有沒有去看醫生,沒有規定要健康檢查,但他有去啊!"},{"start":23499.446,"end":23518.513,"text":"他看了牙醫欸!他不是沒有看欸!難道牙醫就沒有敏感度嗎?牙醫去看他檢查牙齒然後還可以說他這個四顆牙齒的脫落可能是因為磨牙牙醫師回報提供的意見可能是磨牙嚴重可能受過刺激不平等待遇或癲癇他也有回應這個也有醫生看過並不是沒有所以我的意思是說其實"},{"start":23529.707,"end":23532.768,"text":"社家屬要創造定期的、跨單位的、不同的居家托育服務中心承辦單位、跨縣市的經驗交流機會,要擴大分享的風險資料庫"},{"start":23551.192,"end":23567.223,"text":"因為一個社工員幾個個案尤其是他看了這個個案他加上自身經驗加上這個學習的這個呃這個呃呈時間的長短不一那你提升所有第一線的從業人員的風險辨識的敏感度那風險分這些個案大家部團的來共同分享建立一個風險資料庫結果他們檢討的是說可是每次社家屬去舉辦的會議都流於形式"},{"start":23581.152,"end":23596.711,"text":"都不是第一線工作的社工委員發言回饋都交給不是第一線的專家學者發言所以你們製作出來的手冊沒有跟上實務需求"},{"start":23597.552,"end":23621.377,"text":"如果個別的居托中心承辦的單位組織內如果你們社交組織這樣子讓學者專家發言沒有第一線的共享風險資料庫但是這個承辦單位的內部比如說兒福聯盟他內部他們有沒有督導會議他們有沒有定期的社工檢討會議如果沒有不常讓訪員間交流分享"},{"start":23622.637,"end":23627.783,"text":"沒有發揮監督職責,機構內也沒有共同分享的這個風險資料庫的教育等等,房市的品質一定很差所以我們在講說社交屬一定要擴大各居托中心經驗交流"},{"start":23642.199,"end":23653.47,"text":"不要讓各居家托育中心的工作經驗停留在個人、個別中心或單一縣市我覺得這個回饋的意見非常好我們可以這樣來進行"},{"start":23660.405,"end":23688.382,"text":"對,因為第一線去訪視,它就是收集資料作為風險辨識的依據,但敏感度是關鍵啊你如果沒敏感度,你要收集很多資料,你如果不用忙,你也沒辦法收集很多資料所以這個敏感度是相當要緊的但是呢,我也要跟這個部長你分享,某個居家托育服務中心其他督導的心得"},{"start":23689.541,"end":23707.554,"text":"這個在社家屬社區發展記刊的文章有一篇叫建構安全居家托育服務安全居家托育服務的建構你如何做到風險辨識文中有提到幾個點第一確保足夠的資訊量要以公精準判斷"},{"start":23708.835,"end":23736.375,"text":"然後第二個他們有發現提問的資料的豐厚度提高這個訊息來源和察覺風險電房也要這兩者這個對新收拖案例行性的電房他們也要但是他們發現有一點什麼你知道嗎這個中興督導他都透過多年運作的經驗發現有時候真相啊要收拖結束才會發現為什麼"},{"start":23738.615,"end":23746.101,"text":"因為家長跟保姆之間要維持合作關係所以要有求於保姆有時候不敢講真話"},{"start":23747.312,"end":23775.539,"text":"他不一定會馬上全盤拖出跟中心說這個保姆有什麼問題馬上就反應但是等到收拖結束合作關係結束他可能會講喔所以托育的過程這個小孩子結束了可是保姆繼續在帶小孩啊他存在的具有風險的照顧行為不會因為這個個案結束而消失還會延續到下一個收拖的兒童"},{"start":23776.579,"end":23787.726,"text":"但是呢可是這個風險沒有被真相沒有被揭露所以他就說有時候呢在收拖更新結束的時候受理保姆的拘托通報以外他們也要求你們要中拖電訪這個家那個家長"},{"start":23795.56,"end":23823.169,"text":"透過和對家長跟保姆回報的結束托育的日期是否一致更重要是要藉此了解家長對於整體送托經驗的感受若查到風險的訊息中心便可以處理托育人員不適當有風險的照顧行為所以中托電訪很重要那這個督導他怎麼分享這個中托電訪的內容"},{"start":23824.571,"end":23848.488,"text":"他說我們剛開始打家長停拖電話家長就想說既然中心來問了而且已經終止收拖了我就講吧他講了兩點第一保母會大聲罵小孩第二寶爸會拿膠帶貼小孩的嘴巴還跟我們家長炫耀這個是媽媽在收拖結束以後才告訴他們的"},{"start":23849.901,"end":23865.805,"text":"所以說你說定期的有意義有目的的這個電訪很重要但是從收託結束中拖的這個電訪也很重要所以這些都是一種機制啊但是必須要有敏感性而且你們有規定要中拖電訪嗎目前是沒有沒有對所以人家做的好的還有中拖電訪"},{"start":23873.919,"end":23878.36,"text":"這個關係結束以後,我孩子在你手上拜託你給我,我不跟你說終止這個托育以後,結束才會發現真相這個就是我們在這裡告訴你的但我今天還有一點要請教這個部長啦講這麼久我還是有點不了解這個凱凱的付費給保姆的是誰?誰付費的?"},{"start":23899.229,"end":23919.812,"text":"就是他的保母費是誰付的?阿俄府聯盟沒有拿到補助他為什麼會願意幫這個小孩付錢?會不會有道德風險?要幫那個小孩付錢,如果他沒有被人家收養時間越拖越長,要幫他付的錢越多,所以他就越找那個品質越差越便宜的?"},{"start":23920.433,"end":23924.975,"text":"這個機制運作了這麼多年,怎麼會這個樣子呢?他有沒有政府的補助進去?完全都沒有嗎?這麼多年都沒有嗎?我以為百思不得其解,因為兒盟將這個凱凱交付給這個保姆的時候,為什麼是由他的外婆跟這個保姆簽約的?"},{"start":23948.183,"end":23971.933,"text":"可是目前的是兒婦聯盟這個關係對價關係不太對啊對所以這一個部分就是我們在檢討報告裡面提到的然後我們未來要去改的這個機制我們就希望他走的是委託安置的一個流程然後就不是我說媒合機構怎麼會有這麼多錢可以去幫你安置這麼多小孩你不會覺得疑問嗎"},{"start":23973.917,"end":24002.205,"text":"當然因為他後面最後如果沒有成功的話是有收費啦對於收養者去做收費好當然收費標準是怎麼樣?以兒福聯盟為例現在收費標準是怎麼樣?大概是10萬嘛第一個階段只要去申請就要繳費2萬所以要收養也要花很多錢的不是免費的喔第二階段進行收養評估審查要2萬5第三段第四階段要收多少?"},{"start":24003.533,"end":24028.689,"text":"下一張有沒有第三階段收養五萬五但我知道那個外國人收養要繳兩次繳兩次的那個美金四千元所以給外國人收養可以收到美金八千元台灣人收養可以收養成功他要繳十萬元外國人要收養台灣小孩繳八千塊美金所以靠這個收入來cover那個支出"},{"start":24029.95,"end":24050.162,"text":"那所以顯然支柱的時間要越短越好,所以他難以做到最好的評估,所以你們才說這個有道德風險,因為大家都覺得出洋是一個評估,要經過專業的評估才能出洋,如果照這種道理,我愛互出是這孩子,我愛保證他出洋,如果沒保證他出洋,"},{"start":24053.024,"end":24071.015,"text":"我看這孩子的錢都要倒掉,怎麼會有這種事情,怎麼會沒有機構要做這種事情,所以就要保證每個孩子都要給他出洋,不管他是不是需要出洋,不管專業評估到底是不是出洋對這個小孩是最好的,他都勢必要讓他出洋"},{"start":24073.484,"end":24090.017,"text":"是這樣子?對,所以我們這一次要改的就是要改這個部份可是運作了這麼多年這麼荒謬的事情我們現在才知道付出了人命以後這個已經有討論過啦在其實在那個兒權法修法的時候也有討論所以出養越多收入越多就沒有機構而言啦"},{"start":24095.282,"end":24098.923,"text":"現在這位是各位負責多少?差不多兩萬多他到底是負責多少?好像是兩萬五、兩萬六兩萬六?還有理事休息各位這樣?"},{"start":24123.584,"end":24136.573,"text":"然後這個俄府聯盟也不能太挑剔因為他這個錢他還要自己付所以他找品質好的他可能要付更多的錢有這種風險對 有這種風險因為原來的他的那個保姆的話一個月3萬一開始設計這種制度就是一個大錯誤這社會安全網不安全這不是社會安全網這一開始就是一個社會漏洞網"},{"start":24153.666,"end":24181.222,"text":"真的是我們發現問題就是把它糾正過來對啦可是我們只剩8年了你現在跟我講說現在發現問題我們就把它糾正過來我是覺得蠻遺憾的因為這個在道德上風險太大了然後在運作上也是你會讓它整個這個保姆的服務當然是尋求最便宜的當然風險就更大"},{"start":24182.871,"end":24189.915,"text":"尋求最便宜的風險更大,然後在專業的這個出養的評估上,也勢必一定要評估出出養,沒有這個機構,沒有機構就了不起啊,了不起啊。若是外國人來收養更好,因為可以收8000塊錢美金,那台灣人收養的話才收10萬元。"},{"start":24203.722,"end":24231.943,"text":"每一個收養小孩的人他必須就一開始第一階段就要收兩萬第二階段收兩萬五分階段就要繳費不成功呢不成功就是沒多少錢所以都要保證成功這樣子真的是我們把兒童要出養的兒童小孩送入深淵裡面聽起來整個制度不是一個社會安全網是反而把小孩推入深淵深坑裡面"},{"start":24233.251,"end":24233.932,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢 我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":24265.957,"end":24266.497,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24299.309,"end":24300.136,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24562.11,"end":24566.594,"text":"好 大家請回座我們準備質詢好 接下來我們請李燕秀委員進行質詢請恤部長好 請部長"},{"start":24588.561,"end":24612.447,"text":"好部長辛苦了上個星期三退府會的副主委李文忠說過去8年來民進黨最大的問題不斷在重複錯誤出狀況的時候都太忙於解釋問題而不是解決問題對於內部錯誤的事情時候也不究責同一天賴清德出席活動的時候致詞也談到說政府的存在不是解釋問題而是解決問題"},{"start":24615.465,"end":24624.797,"text":"賴清德的說法你同不同意政府的存在是解決問題而不是解釋問題當然但是了解問題是解決問題的第一步"},{"start":24626.247,"end":24651.133,"text":"對 要解決問題才是民眾要的嘛到今天為止我希望我看到的都是在解決問題而不是推卸責任喔好 部長 我要請問你齁這個案子從12月發生之後兩個多月之後這個事情爆開來一開始你們對外的說法都是說這個案子已經進入司法程序所以你們才沒有召開針對於凱凱這個案子沒有召開專案會議 對不對"},{"start":24655.047,"end":24667.132,"text":"這個其實是地方跟中央的錯誤認知啦你對外的說法是這樣嗎這個案子因為已經進入司法程序你才沒有召開會議但是我就要提醒啊上個禮拜3月15號你們去召開專案會議去做檢討討論"},{"start":24673.675,"end":24677.237,"text":"難道整個檢調司法程序已經終結所以我跟委員報告我從來沒有說一定要等到司法那為什麼這個案子這麼重大的社會案件居然一個會議都沒有召開來事後也沒有任何救責不管檢調在調查的內容是什麼"},{"start":24695.532,"end":24695.792,"text":"這是第一點第二"},{"start":24720.686,"end":24737.445,"text":"部長我還是要提整件事情看到你們的回應報告裡面提到兒童專責醫師的制度那兒科專責醫師的收案方式其實分為兩種一種是自行收案另外一個是指定收案"},{"start":24738.787,"end":24739.667,"text":"現行的兒科專責醫師的計畫,收案是由衛生局直接指派給專責醫師嗎?現行?"},{"start":24768.103,"end":24780.677,"text":"那個如果說這個名單到了衛生局的話衛生局就會幫這些小孩子去找指定的醫師好那部長你知道我們原來兒科專責醫師我們計畫的原來的雛形原來的構想是什麼"},{"start":24785.796,"end":24814.915,"text":"原來的構想本來就是我們希望說說兒科醫師從基層開始來處理那當然因為這個人數的部分的話部長我請問你我如果是一個會兒虐的媽媽我會主動把我孩子常常讓醫生看到嗎所以如果說他定期應該要來這個打疫苗或者是說這個定期的這個健康檢查的時候他沒有來"},{"start":24815.996,"end":24842.614,"text":"那我們要再進一步聯絡他還是拒絕的話那這個就要通報部長這是衛政跟社政單位未來的聯繫的方式部長我今天要跟你探討兒科的專責醫師的計畫原型其實我們本來去年發布的原型是以照顧高風險的個案為主就是以原來比如說極端早產先天性的重大疾病我們希望有一個我們把這些孩子納入這些制度醫療的體系網路去做照顧"},{"start":24846.076,"end":24849.08,"text":"我覺得林立芬次長那一天在記者會上說的就是說額內個案未來要通報我們再往前看前面那個圖其實潛在收案的來源是在這一群裡面但是如果"},{"start":24861.331,"end":24878.833,"text":"高風險而虐的家庭家長不會主動出現嗎這個是我們現在最大的問題所以現在我們就是說這一類高風險的這些個案那要去派他的這個指定他的幼兒專責醫師的時候不需要經過家長同意"},{"start":24880.712,"end":24901.242,"text":"那怎麼找到這些人呢?怎麼找到這些孩子呢?你現在把0到3歲指定給衛生局來指定,可見過去其實這一塊是漏洞嘛你也承認它是漏洞嘛,對不對?今天的問題就是說,新北、台北兩個都沒有去做這件事情"},{"start":24902.841,"end":24902.901,"text":"立法院議員"},{"start":24918.221,"end":24919.803,"text":"社會局就有這些脆弱家庭的名單"},{"start":24935.72,"end":24939.602,"text":"怎麼會沒有選擇選擇家庭的這個選擇這個專責醫生制度這個一切你有沒有去跟他溝通過這一開始執行的時候包括社會局包括衛生局我們都有找來都有溝通過你沒有跟他你確定嗎對從這兩天一切一切的態度你有沒有跟他溝通過就是說"},{"start":24961.513,"end":24978.023,"text":"你後面還有一個訪視制度醫生一個人去人家家裡敲著門他沒有警政單位的配合他沒有社政單位的配合這個制度怎麼形成所以部長 醫生不一定要去執行家訪是要聯絡那個小孩子要帶過來給他看那他如果不來呢他如果不來呢就通知這個社政單位啦他拒絕啦他主動通知他不來"},{"start":24990.109,"end":25012.343,"text":"醫生還要在另外花一個工我覺得部長這個執行面上齁我們不要只推卸責任你現在變成說你找新北台北兩個來開會我覺得一個政策制度要做得好中央地方必須要合作當然你們做計畫很簡單你指定下去你要誰做就誰做但是他們在執行面上可行性怎麼樣有沒有自愛難行的地方我覺得你完全沒有去思考"},{"start":25021.134,"end":25038.14,"text":"這個在設計這個制度的時候其實就有跟這些相關的兒科醫學會我覺得部長部長他們已經有討論過怎麼會沒有思考呢一切的反彈一切的反彈我覺得你必須要去做更多其實兒科醫學會是非常贊成的"},{"start":25039.11,"end":25058.216,"text":"你去跟他們執行面上我覺得執行面上因為大家或許對你現在執行面上要怎麼去處理大家還有很多的問號因為從記者會上的新聞稿對外的說明大家還不知道怎麼去進行但是如果用現行的方式去處理的話大家恐怕有更多的問號醫生都是好你們來看醫生我發現有異狀在我主動通知慎慎單位謹慎單位這沒有問題主動的家訪"},{"start":25067.691,"end":25095.541,"text":"他們的能力就是說他們主動性上有沒有這個時間各方面有沒有這個時間有沒有這個能力我覺得是很大的問號特別現在我們在兒科醫師的現在人力也越來越少的狀況之下我覺得這個都是要去做考量不要讓很多人一切本來願意在這個兒科的專責制度裡面因為你現在不清楚的說明之後很多人退出這樣的一個制度我覺得你要思考清楚"},{"start":25096.221,"end":25104.571,"text":"你不要一個制度執行下去後面才發現這邊又漏了一個洞那邊又漏了一個洞我們今天檢討制度是要把每一個洞補起來"},{"start":25106.348,"end":25107.949,"text":"李燕秀委員的質詢接下來我們請陳培餘委員進行質詢"},{"start":25140.306,"end":25144.91,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請部長跟理事 謝謝好 來請部長跟次長委員好"},{"start":25149.471,"end":25174.745,"text":"好 部長辛苦了 午安我想我們就社安網快速跟部長討論就是這一次我想很多大家討論的焦點都在社工身上那我們認識非常多在第一線的社工朋友們或者是我們過往熟悉的老師朋友我覺得有一件事情我想要跟部長比較積極的討論當然也許今天時間有限我們必須要後續在辦公室討論其實我相信部長您認不認同我以下要說的這段話"},{"start":25175.265,"end":25175.465,"text":"的確啦,這一個"},{"start":25197.188,"end":25199.391,"text":"加外安置跟照顧系統是不是需要全面的檢討?"},{"start":25215.171,"end":25230.863,"text":"孩子如何離開家進一步我們來想一想在這照顧過程當中尤其是像凱凱這樣的案例必須要來國家承擔這個照顧責任失去原生家庭功能的這些小孩他們所需要的相關資源包含教育包含醫療"},{"start":25231.644,"end":25247.98,"text":"整個社會安全網我們所想像的是社安網而不是社工安全網我想這件事情是不是請部長或是理事有一個表態讓我們第一線的所有基層工作人員不要因為上次的上銬事件的畫面讓大家感到悲痛他們不是被犧牲的對象"},{"start":25248.749,"end":25250.03,"text":"我們都希望趕快把社安網補上"},{"start":25269.597,"end":25286.228,"text":"那我們撇除掉凱凱的案例這確實是一個特例我覺得未來大家要想像的是更多更多的通案而這麼多沒有依靠的兒少他們的替代性照顧這到底是不是國家的責任是地方的責任是中央的責任還是整體地方跟中央必須要承擔的責任這個部分我也想要請部長有所表態因為如果我們不去想這件事情"},{"start":25294.594,"end":25295.115,"text":"這其實就是國家的責任"},{"start":25310.771,"end":25315.697,"text":"我們很開心聽到部長您說是國家的責任我們在去年有一個質詢我們也跟部長討論到關於社安網的漏洞光是在電腦系統裡面我們就可以看出這個問題"},{"start":25330.748,"end":25359.271,"text":"部長跟你分享在頁面的左邊這個綠色藍位的標頭這個是CRC根據CRC公告的中央的網站說相關違反兒少事件必須要公佈姓名的案例右邊是新竹縣也就是說在新竹縣的2022年1月到2024年1月我只是以新竹縣為例在這兩年之間的案例發生在新竹縣衛福部公告23筆可是地方政府公告了41筆"},{"start":25360.472,"end":25367.483,"text":"照理說這應該是一樣的事情他只是登錄在兩個系統但是為什麼會有這麼大的數字上的落差"},{"start":25373.329,"end":25389.124,"text":"這部分是因為中央公告的網站跟地方公告的地方不一致那我剛剛有請同仁我們是不是針對那個怎麼樣子來更新怎麼樣子兩邊資料可以隨時連動這個部分我們在系統上面我們來做進進來做改進"},{"start":25391.571,"end":25414.959,"text":"應該是說其實去年部長就去年12月部長就已經答應但是我相信部長你一定不知道發生了什麼事情我再跟部長分享其中一個案例我們隨便點進去一個畫面你就會發現每一個上傳到中央這個CRC系統的地方有地方政府他只有上傳一個桌面截圖你按進另外一個事件呢那個地方政府就很認真地把這個案由又寫出來但是有地方政府呢他要公告相關的公文"},{"start":25415.279,"end":25430.358,"text":"也就是說相關的兒少事件中央並沒有跟地方有一個好的默契到底我們要公告什麼樣的資料供一般民眾查詢因為基本上CRC這個網站是可以供一般民眾查詢那這個問題到底出在哪裡我們之前已經問過"},{"start":25431.539,"end":25448.734,"text":"那我們來看一下這個是衛福部給我們辦公室的回覆你們說這是你們說的你們說各縣市呢光是公告的位置在網站上不一樣有人放在財閥專區有人放在政府公告有人放在地方政府的最新消息區那甚至在教育部是放在全國課後照顧服務中心資訊網或者是還有實體公布欄"},{"start":25452.657,"end":25481.018,"text":"也就是說你們認為你們沒有相關權限可以要求地方政府在這些事情上統一所以如果民眾要查詢相關資訊的時候他們必須要自己到各個縣市政府去往海撈整項撈資料撈不出來可是回到CRC你們又沒有規定他們要上傳到CRC甚至公告期間不一致這也是非常嚴重的問題公告後不下架或者是地方政府覺得這個罪很輕我放兩天就下架還是到底要不要定期上架下架這件事情你們也沒有態度"},{"start":25483.84,"end":25493.988,"text":"你們告訴我們目前難以執行的原因你們說你們只能定期以行政指導的方法喊請各地方政府通知內部財閥單位要配合到CRC而造法財閥專區登錄案件你們還說跟教育部有關一旦有跨部會職責你們也不能管可是我們發現就有非常多的遺漏啊"},{"start":25503.516,"end":25517.205,"text":"那所有這些無照經營的托嬰中心虐待小孩的人相關的處罰採取的結果大家就查不到啊那查不到後續到底還能夠做什麼那你們告訴我們說你們必須要修兒少全法才能解決這個問題"},{"start":25519.845,"end":25533.491,"text":"這邊我想請李次回應一下,真的只能修法嗎?我們其實研究過相關的執法細則就可以解決這個問題,真的要等到兒少全法,那不然我們就問,兒少全法什麼時候可以修得完?光是公告這件事情就有這麼大的落差"},{"start":25534.717,"end":25550.288,"text":"因為依這個的依法的規定公告是縣市政府要去公告是這個我們都很清楚就在他們的各個業務單位他們去公告那現在我們衛福部西雅溪這個的部分是把大家公告的部分再看怎麼樣子"},{"start":25551.389,"end":25565.055,"text":"建立查詢然後再做彙整所以在這個時間點我們會再去看怎麼樣子做經濟那我們可能需要在法規這部分就要求說地方政府的公告要在哪個地方公告可能會"},{"start":25565.836,"end":25570.699,"text":"那可不可以有機會在耳哨犬法沒有辦法大修的情況下在三個月內有相關的執法因為我剛剛說了撇除凱凱這個個案假設我是一個一般的媽媽我想要找保姆我想知道這個保姆過去有沒有虐兒的事件我去查CRC嗎還是我要去全台灣22個縣市政府的網站我才能查到某某某他到底有沒有虐兒的事件發生"},{"start":25590.439,"end":25612.539,"text":"我這個部分我們會找再把縣市政府找來因為我覺得剛剛同仁講說縣市政府可能有一些抗議那我覺得他抗議的點可能是在於說同仁他必須在不同的地方登錄是增加他們工作上的一個增加好那如果地方縣市政府工作有困難中央這邊你們覺得有沒有什麼方法可以協助地方政府"},{"start":25612.779,"end":25635.354,"text":"我就說我們會開會來討論特別是說如果他是系統可以來解決的問題不要讓地方的同仁同樣一件事情要做兩件事那這個部分我們可以再把地方政府再找來然後看看資訊網站這個部分怎麼樣子做好的一個改善可以讓地方的同仁做完一件事我們中央也可以取得相關的一個資料我覺得這部分我們可以來"},{"start":25635.854,"end":25635.994,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":25656.906,"end":25657.046,"text":"主席"},{"start":25682.079,"end":25682.379,"text":"賴氏寶委員"},{"start":25707.914,"end":25710.636,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進,有請薛部長好,請部長委員好部長你好,辛苦了幾件事情來請教你第一個有關於這個"},{"start":25726.026,"end":25754.701,"text":"陳建仁部長前幾天說院長為了要為了蘇泰隆的事件說要成立食安檢驗基金外界覺得就是蝶蟲家戶而且你已經有食安基金了你這個食安檢驗基金跟食安基金什麼不一樣?什麼地方不一樣?食安基金目前本來在做的就是說"},{"start":25755.761,"end":25783.766,"text":"這些錢可以做什麼?對於有這種團體訴訟的時候可以給他法律上面的一些補助那第二個就是給縣市政府在一些研究上面的話區別什麼區別?但是食安檢驗基金聽起來的話主要是這廠商如果他願意自主檢查阿我們不是有食藥主人嗎?為什麼還有這個基金呢?"},{"start":25785.246,"end":25811.615,"text":"主要是說他要自主檢查的話那可能就是說這一個費用是比較高的所以他們希望說有一個基金來做補助基金來做補助?食藥署呢?食藥署是檢查就是食藥署在做的我們講的是廠商如果要做自主檢查你這個食安檢驗基金什麼時候要開始運作?規模多大?這個部分還沒有討論討論完都5萬人啊"},{"start":25814.424,"end":25832.127,"text":"五二零之後你還在?這個東西陳建仁是丟一個煙霧彈啊很清楚看得到啊因為這個距離五二零的時間大概兩個月五二零之後兩個月的時間丟出這個東西到現在你八字沒一撇啊"},{"start":25833.068,"end":25841.132,"text":"這個其實是在食安基金管理的這個所謂的委員會裡面的話可以去做是啊為什麼要有一個大院長來宣布我覺得這裡面呢很弔詭我就請問你我這樣的一句話因為現在發現不是只有這個蘇丹榮現在看到的辣油紅紅的白胡椒粉也有沙茶醬也有幾乎像水銀洩地到處都有蘇丹榮我講這句話同意嗎"},{"start":25862.741,"end":25878.273,"text":"呃,應該不盡然了。所以現在就是說,因為循線著這個追查下去的話,會到許多後面幾乎都有啊!你什麼地方沒有你告訴我!你告訴我!你告訴我!比如說,委員講說,這一個所謂的沙灑匠"},{"start":25882.777,"end":25910.449,"text":"不是每一個廠牌的剎那醬都有啊所以當然如果他沒有加的這些廠牌、廠商的話他就願意要去做這個部長啊吃到蘇燈籠、吹到蝴蝶籠是什麼?什麼時候會發作?有癌症嗎?這個部分喔,他的癌症是否會治癌其實並沒有在這個研究的報告出來可是為什麼大家都不死?如果這樣子的話我根本就說不用怕,我學部長保證"},{"start":25912.33,"end":25914.651,"text":"聞蘇丹隆聽到蘇丹隆有答案我要驚喜而且衛福部老實不客氣說"},{"start":25936.795,"end":25952.638,"text":"學院部長帶領的衛福部團隊到現在為止給人家感覺就是看到蘇丹龍就舉牌起投降因為沒辦法查什麼邊境管理那是事後啦加強檢驗那個都知道本來就知道為什麼會到現在為止你們就是一副這個內閣變成一個你要說過度內閣不是過度內閣喔白爛內閣喔無政府狀態喔蘇丹龍就是最好的無政府狀態的犧牲"},{"start":25965.18,"end":25969.021,"text":"我必須要承認說當初在邊境把關那個升級的速度太慢反應不夠快結果讓有部分的產品就跑到因為五月的時候開始發現說有"},{"start":25990.808,"end":25994.51,"text":"本來的一些規範就是逐步的升級所以你還是沒有否認我講的話啦好啦沒關係啦我們就調第二題來"},{"start":26017.779,"end":26019.42,"text":"現行的刑法裡面它就是有這死刑的可能性"},{"start":26048.243,"end":26067.792,"text":"沒有啦有119年修的如果是惡意的話他本來就是故意殺人的一種啦不會說只有無期徒刑所以你贊成死刑我問你贊不贊成對這樣事情死刑他就是221條286 我跟你講286"},{"start":26071.534,"end":26087.49,"text":"刑法282但是他沒有排除271條的殺人法好啦我先問你你贊不贊成內核致死的案犯者應該要死刑贊不贊成沒有說每一個案子都一樣的一個處理的所以有些可以這樣處理"},{"start":26089.552,"end":26112.062,"text":"阿沒有要換人要做什麼當然是要經過調查阿一定致死阿你故意你已經成立惡意還有成立喔當然是必須要經過法院的考察那再進一步最惡意的情況惡意喔非常惡意非常惡意的N字房然後讓小孩子致死你正不正的實行"},{"start":26113.764,"end":26137.074,"text":"最惡意、最壞依照現在法律規定是可以判處可以判處?你怎麼贊成的?我問你啊你不要問我這個問題這個我個人的意願沒有辦法去影響到這個問題你是部長餒對,但是我個人的想法不能夠去影響到整個的惡意的虐兒致死以及人神共憤、社會共憤這個時候你難道不敢講一句說我與部長的一個高度"},{"start":26141.736,"end":26146.058,"text":"我絕對贊成死刑這一句話你都不敢講你太冷血啦這個因為部長的高度不應該去做這種判斷所以不能判斷因為他為什麼會這樣子有一個司法系統在那邊你今天早上難道你道歉道歉假的啊也是因為你們管理不善你已經對這個事情道歉了你已經對這個事情道歉了"},{"start":26167.95,"end":26168.991,"text":"中央地方的責任你認為多少開?五五開?六四開?多少開?你跟我講一下"},{"start":26196.576,"end":26198.277,"text":"臺北市就報一個說北市兒少通報結果你們馬上說臺北市出來兩個孽兒"},{"start":26219.881,"end":26224.823,"text":"你們戴風向啊!部長!不能這樣理啦!和尚保護的通報,那我們並沒有說被人調!移啊!你們就想移一次!你給人嚇的啊!當然就是有可能啊!你怎麼可以這樣子就下定論?我為什麼關心這個事?"},{"start":26236.067,"end":26244.132,"text":"因為這兩個這個關愛之家在我的選區情況不是你講那個樣子情況我沒有時間了情況我掌握得很清楚他就是一個移工的小孩在關愛之家就在文山區的選區裡面"},{"start":26258.039,"end":26265.681,"text":"對啦就是那個你敢說你敢說你敢說是虐兒這東西里長都反對阿對啦阿就不愛上阿就不愛上那個你講這個我為什麼今天已經問你因為我的里長打電話給我喔不是我的里長文山區的里長他也是聯議會的會長"},{"start":26280.124,"end":26299.895,"text":"國外職交就在文山區的一個里長連理會會長的那個里裡面他說衛生、衛生、衛生部的部長軟骨叫我一天來講你叫軟骨你就軟骨我從來沒說那些事你現在說啊不能講你都不能講啊沒有責任就這樣"},{"start":26302.332,"end":26306.516,"text":"不是嗎?不是額略嗎?我能夠這樣講嗎?你為什麼要提額略呢?你就按照人家臺北市政府給你通報就是額掃的額掃通報你就接接受嗎?你說我們要調查的話你不這樣子,你就戴個帽子,噢噢噢,於是"},{"start":26321.089,"end":26321.249,"text":"最後一個 時間到了"},{"start":26334.793,"end":26352.075,"text":"你現在的健保點數1點換幾塊錢?0點幾?如果計算到最後的話大概都要0.90.9左右啦齁?什麼時候可以到1塊錢?這要整個的總額預算制度要翻掉才有可能"},{"start":26353.422,"end":26355.845,"text":"總而說一上次數底下就這樣子什麼時候什麼時候可以可以可以時間表"},{"start":26370.894,"end":26392.309,"text":"要修法我們呢你什麼我不知道我一直疑問520你會不會留下來雖然你是新潮流留下來機會也很大兩件很荒謬的事情過度內閣不應該做一個大的事情你們的食安檢驗基金不應該是過度政府來做第二個"},{"start":26393.149,"end":26395.79,"text":"建保一塊錢這次要修法是絕對沒有錯委員的意思是說我不應該提修法"},{"start":26420.899,"end":26422.139,"text":"社會對你普遍是討厭你的"},{"start":26448.647,"end":26451.07,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲張雅玲張雅玲委員不在請郭育晴委員進行質詢"},{"start":26476.485,"end":26481.238,"text":"主席好有請部長辛苦了好來部長請"},{"start":26486.726,"end":26505.245,"text":"部長好我想這次的這個事件其實造成臺灣社會很大的一個震撼尤其是當過媽媽的其實我自己也非常非常難過那也感到痛心那在這裡其實我想要先請教一下部長到底當這個個案他在12月24號死亡"},{"start":26507.828,"end":26519.103,"text":"之後的這三個月這中間到底是誰來做所謂的通報的平台我們又是誰應該要來做這個資料的一個彙整然後再來做個案的一個處理"},{"start":26520,"end":26540.399,"text":"如果依照現行的規定是這樣子那第一個地方的社會局必須要向中央來做通報這個有做他們在什麼時候通報的?應該25號但是第二個要做的就是地方就必須判斷他是重大"},{"start":26541.279,"end":26568.399,"text":"而內事件的時候他就要召開檢討會議在10天之內要召開召開之後有了這個會議的結論的話兩個禮拜之內要送到中央來中央的話會看他的這個檢討會議的記錄來評估說有沒有必要再找地方政府過來做更詳細的說明他釐清這個案情的來龍去脈"},{"start":26569.961,"end":26587.24,"text":"以及這個提出這個地方提出的這個檢討的這個改善的措施是否可以執行我想因為事情演變到今天其實我覺得不管是中央或者地方甚至於在所謂的我們認可的這些兒福的機構"},{"start":26588.141,"end":26588.281,"text":"主席"},{"start":26604.591,"end":26622.481,"text":"這個重大的決定就像是自費武功是一樣的一個道理那當然必須經過所謂的主管機關許可的財團法人公私立兒童以及少年安置的一個教養機構當然這樣子的一個用意其實就是為了怕私下的所謂的這個收養、出養"},{"start":26623.646,"end":26638.859,"text":"會產生一些弊端產生一些問題但是後來其實在我們以現階段來講只有8家合可那這8家當中其實又其中這一次的這一個部分其實是不是也等於在這中間不管是誰來監導誰來督導其實他是出現問題將來他合可的條件是不是應該要更加嚴苛"},{"start":26644.482,"end":26665.198,"text":"對,其實我們整個8家那這些都會再進一步來做一些檢討,包括這個許可的辦法,我們也必須要做檢討所謂的檢討是什麼?有沒有一個具體的一個方案?因為其實我覺得大家想要看的是這個部分因為有太多、太多捐款人他們的愛心其實真的被辜負了"},{"start":26668.761,"end":26688.878,"text":"對這8家的話,我們應該要去做一些業務上面的要求比如說他的這個員工薪資,他的這個訪視的機制包括說他去判斷出養的必要性,當然未來出養必要性就不會在這裡了"},{"start":26689.795,"end":26710.96,"text":"好那因為今天是因為時間的關係我快速的其實在目前為止我們知道所有的這個因為這次的這個案件凱凱他渾身上下其實我們看到的他幾乎已經是被虐殺的一個狀況其實大家都非常的不忍喔那當然其實我們也暫緩了這次這個額富聯盟他的一個業務那這個暫緩之後我們的政府怎麼補上呢怎麼補救呢"},{"start":26717.948,"end":26735.342,"text":"目前是新收的先暫停了那接下來的話我們可能就要去了解說他的這個基金會本身在內部的話那對於這些社工的教育訓練還有薪資條件等等這些的話到底是不是適合"},{"start":26736.262,"end":26737.183,"text":"因為其實我們"},{"start":26765.405,"end":26765.945,"text":"我們現在就準備這樣做"},{"start":26783.593,"end":26799.848,"text":"好那另外其實剛剛有提到所謂的人力的部分包含我們的社工其實他們的工作量按是非常非常之大的那當然其實我們也知道就是從今年開始其實在所謂的社工他們的一些薪資的部分其實有做了一些調整可是"},{"start":26800.689,"end":26816.801,"text":"也針對所謂的風險加急的這個部分我們採用了所謂的定額制那這個定額制其實真的也形同就是已經取消了所謂的風險分級是不是相對來講其實有些社工他們會覺得他是變相的被減刑這個部分我不知道"},{"start":26818.055,"end":26819.356,"text":"社會安全網推動情形及策進作為"},{"start":26842.506,"end":26851.043,"text":"但是其實我們也會擔心所謂的這個必須要民間力量的一些初級以及次級的預防的工作反而會沒有人來擔任喔你們有考慮到這個問題嗎"},{"start":26854.141,"end":26855.682,"text":"其實真的針對這一次凱凱的事件是全台灣人的痛"},{"start":26877.071,"end":26902.233,"text":"那我們真的真的誠懇的希望不管是地方也好我們的中央也好我們不希望這個孩子在最後痛苦離開的時候最後只收到來自於機構一個冰冷的時代這是我衷心期盼的不要再有下一個孩子受害了我們一起來努力好嗎好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝郭育琴委員的質詢接下來我們請"},{"start":26904.384,"end":26909.532,"text":"葉圓芝 葉圓芝 葉圓芝委員不在 我們請范雲委員進行質詢有請部長好 有請薛部長"},{"start":26926.658,"end":26942.363,"text":"部長午安我想我們從早上到下午這個虐嬰致死的悲劇讓整個社會都很震驚我們也檢討了非常多我其實是想先請問部長您是哪一個部的部長"},{"start":26944.925,"end":26959.92,"text":"衛福部的根據官網職責是在中央衛生福利部為我國最高衛生及社會福利行政機關負責全國衛生及社會福利行政事務並對各級地方衛生及社會福利機關負有業務指導監督和協調的責任這個沒錯吧"},{"start":26964.024,"end":26990.338,"text":"所以我想這件事情第一線的機構地方政府當然是很有責任可是中央我想你們之前也有聲明過有明確的監督指導協調的責任那我今天主要是針對社工的事情想請問您那全國除了衛生是您督導全國社會福利事務責任上也是由您總督導沒錯吧"},{"start":26992.031,"end":27015.049,"text":"那因為衛福部3月13號有三點聲明我看到新聞都是次長李立芬跟社工司長蘇司長在回應我想請問您個人這次社工被上手銬的事件您個人有什麼看法這一個部分的話當然個案是否有刑事上的責任這個我們近代這個調查之後我們先不以置評"},{"start":27015.99,"end":27038.91,"text":"但是對於我們全國的社工在他們的工作上面所做的努力讓整個國家的社會安全網能夠維持住我們是非常的感激的至於說這個過程當中有這樣上手銬的做法的話我想警政機關也已經做出了檢討"},{"start":27040.86,"end":27043.643,"text":"所以你也覺得警政機關應該檢討嗎?對,他們已經做了檢討那我是想請問衛福部下一頁"},{"start":27051.896,"end":27076.264,"text":"衛福部就是為我們第一線社工做了哪些事因為其實社工的工作有非常多的暴力行為的當事人他是個高風險的工作以我這邊就是網路上這次事件之後社工講到自己的安全的時候譬如說有一位就講找警察供訪警察叫社工先深入險境警察在外面等"},{"start":27077.344,"end":27100.654,"text":"還有就是家暴的時候被相對人反鎖在家裡家訪完被黑衣人圍毆所以其實社工本身常常會面對出現暴力行為的當事人那我想請問就是說您作為部長您知道雖然衛福部的相關的安全指引有講到"},{"start":27101.314,"end":27116.251,"text":"得請求警察,因為這是你們自己中央裡面有寫的可是警察也可以拒絕,不完全配合因為我查到的是,高雄台中市政府也是只有寫得,卻沒有寫警察一定得配合"},{"start":27116.951,"end":27138.2,"text":"高雄市政府是我找到裡面有寫被請求之機關應與配合很明確的說當社工得請求警察機關的配合的時候那我只看到當然我沒有把全國都找完了衛福部作為這個中央的部分似乎在這個部分還相對的不足這是第一個我想講的"},{"start":27138.8,"end":27159.265,"text":"可是你看到據說這次因為這個創傷那社工的一些臉書上就請大家來分享各自的創傷那這邊是我們的辦公室找了幾個一位是自殺防治的社工談完之後對方就跳下去了然後他的創傷是沒能把對方留到警察到現場那另一位呢"},{"start":27160.385,"end":27183.211,"text":"是服務一位開瓦斯自殺的社工,後來他也是不斷地哭,哪裡沒做好,不斷地指責自己。那這邊右上方是一位,是說他讓新生兒就是被從母親身旁帶走,因為擔心母親是不是有虐待小孩,但是後來這位母親就是相對人,就自殺了。"},{"start":27184.111,"end":27205.309,"text":"所以這位社工也活在懷疑自己的決定安置小孩是不是對的那母親是不是其實沒有虐待小孩以死捍衛自己的清白那最後一位是他的案主後來涉入刑事案件上銬被帶走案主走之前還跟他揮手道別所以他也很自責是不是自己做得不夠好"},{"start":27206.31,"end":27217.303,"text":"導致案主出事所以我想部長並不會反對就是說社工的工作其實面對到非常多的創傷已經有很多的自責部長不反對吧"},{"start":27218.848,"end":27240.72,"text":"其實這些都是一些遺憾的案例當然都是案例可是我們隨便找找這次事件之後就有人這麼多分享我要講的事情是我希望部長可以了解到據說衛福部如果是社福的主管機關那社工是社安網的最基層的勞工他們面臨到的是一個保護很少"},{"start":27242.12,"end":27268.886,"text":"創傷跟自責很多的工作所以現在社工已經自主的把3月12號就是社工上課那天叫做社工集體創傷日那他們馬上社工工會就要來衛福部門口抗議了所以我想請問就是部長你有什麼對策面對全台社工已經在一個高風險我們給他們的資源保護非常少"},{"start":27269.426,"end":27293.952,"text":"可是他們工作的本質就是創傷非常多加上這個上銬的事情那衛福部的反應有反應但是也是慢了半拍是在工會發了聲明說第二天那我們次長有反應出來有是說有三點聲明那衛福部有什麼對策就面對我們安全網最基層的勞工現在的這個集體創傷"},{"start":27295.932,"end":27299.075,"text":"第一點你們自己中央的手冊方面就應該要白紙黑字寫警察機關必須要配合嗎?"},{"start":27319.813,"end":27344.033,"text":"不是像社工看到的還說社工你先進去我在外面等你那社工有權利要求他陪他進去嗎不可能嗎所以這個部分的SOP就必須要檢討修正那其他呢社工的創傷也很多這些都不講待遇了這個部分的話當然我們是希望就是說能夠把大家"},{"start":27346.495,"end":27370.64,"text":"整合起來因為這方面的話那集體的一些所謂的創傷那要去宣洩出來那我們應該有提供這樣子一個管道可以來做那第三個部分的話那就是對於社工所在執行業務所發生的一些事情那一些困難他需要有支持"},{"start":27371.965,"end":27388.09,"text":"這個支持除了他原單位裡面可能會有督導這樣子的一個系統來做支持之外的話那我們希望就是說我們未來在部裡面也應該有一個這樣的平台來接受他們的一些意見或者說一些經驗"},{"start":27392.691,"end":27416.972,"text":"能夠有專家來那因為時間遠過我剛聽到三點第一個針對警察應協助社工的部分你們會去修改相關的中央的規定指引第二個社工的創傷你們會有就是說相關的輔導跟服務第三點你們這個系統的部分也會檢視我想要盡快的邀我們全國的社工一起來聽聽他們的集體的心聲那我是覺得還非常不夠"},{"start":27420.635,"end":27447.98,"text":"為什麼今天要請部長您來答因為我們衛福部長期以衛生為主導社福總是次長在領導我會認為就是您部長應該要更花心思出來理解我們社會福利尤其是我們基層的社安網的勞工的心聲如果連社工都大幅出走的話那我很難想像我們社安網如何給民眾信心好不好那拜託部長可不可以給我辦公室一個報告好嗎"},{"start":27448.66,"end":27448.92,"text":"謝謝部長 加油 謝謝"},{"start":27461.084,"end":27486.801,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請 林思明 林思明 林思明委員不在黃建豪 黃建豪 黃建豪委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在謝一鳳 謝一鳳 謝一鳳委員不在顏寬恒 顏寬恒 顏寬恒委員不在林國成 林國成 林國成委員不在接下來我們請黃國昌委員進行諮詢"},{"start":27503.798,"end":27505.8,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長好來部長請委員好"},{"start":27513.076,"end":27540.906,"text":"部長其實發生這樣的悲劇我相信大家看了都很難過當然更重要的事情是我們真的很認真的來看現在到底發生了什麼狀況那我們社會安全網的強化第一期計畫第二期計畫部長你會不會覺得很奇怪為什麼兒少受虐的人數其實不減反正"},{"start":27543.019,"end":27569.398,"text":"這個部分應該是通報吧是通報的當然我們鼓勵通報也會讓這個本來是在黑數的地方的這些案件量會跑出來就齁這個是通報數嘛就實際的數目我們可能未來有機會一樣一樣來去比但是呢這一次發生這樣的悲劇我必須要跟部長說齁就讓我想到2019年的時候"},{"start":27570.859,"end":27588.435,"text":"其實一模一樣的報告在這個辦公室在這個會議室其實有做過那個時候我們檢討了非常多的事情看到說多數額內的案件失業者是父母或實際照顧的人但這一次衛福部在處理這件事情的時候"},{"start":27589.136,"end":27608.681,"text":"我之前公開了記者會其實我有想要公開請教一下部長就是我看不懂的事情是說衛福部認為說這個保姆不是實際的照顧者因為如果是這樣解釋的話我非常擔心我們的兒少法整個規範體系會崩盤那這樣子的解釋部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":27609.981,"end":27634.188,"text":"我不認同你不認同嗎對我不認同那或許未來可能部長回去找一下就是請衛福部的官員在面對外界質疑的時候誠實的面對問題因為想要透過法條扭曲的解釋不僅沒有辦法解決問題只會造成更大的問題部長您同意嗎"},{"start":27634.868,"end":27661.715,"text":"對,所以在我們今天的這個檢討報告裡面有特別就這一點因為這個是長久以來在社政的單位裡面他們因為分工的非常細所以一碰到問題第一個要想說這是屬於誰要負責我們吼先不是以這個個案為重心我們以法論法啦而造法施行細則有把它限定在說實際照顧者只限於家庭內嗎?"},{"start":27663.764,"end":27690.929,"text":"這個是在講的是102條的在講是嘛但我們現在在講的是49條跟53條嘛所以這樣子給媒體的訊息絕對是錯誤的訊息嘛錯誤的訊息錯了我肯定部長在這邊沒有要凹沒有要文過是非錯了就錯了嘛好接下來齁讓我另外一個覺得非常困惑的事情是說"},{"start":27692.355,"end":27713.938,"text":"前面說是施行細則現於家庭內後來這個說法被戳破了以後改變另外一個說法說因為通報的時候孩童已經死亡配合檢警調查所以沒有按額內的處理程序來加以處理對於這樣子的說法部長你同意嗎?我不同意"},{"start":27714.719,"end":27728.19,"text":"你也不同意嗎?那所以是媒體的記者對次長的說法有扭曲嗎?因為我看到這樣的說法,我非常非常震驚啊。這是不是讓次長來說,來請。謝謝委員,我們當時的講法是說為什麼沒有召開兒女的重大"},{"start":27737.559,"end":27763.474,"text":"並不是說這不是重大額虐的案件我先提一下沒有召開額虐的重大會議可以用檢察官在偵辦所以不用召開當作擋箭牌嗎應該是還沒召開可是因為我們我們先釐清一下嘛所以你也認為應該要召開只是還沒召開嘛對所以跟檢察官的偵查一點關係都沒有嘛是那我們是在配合調查還沒有釐清是不是一個因為齁"},{"start":27765.416,"end":27779.649,"text":"當這件事情發生的時候全體國人都在看衛福部的態度我們在開記者會的時候地方政府有錯就像黃珊珊委員講的臺北市你們自己就是當事人推什麼推啊但"},{"start":27780.393,"end":27795.902,"text":"我們在國會要監督的是中央的部門中央的部門在面對這些問題的態度的時候我們不希望看到透過法條的扭曲我們也不希望看到透過一些莫名其妙的理由想要來文過是非"},{"start":27796.957,"end":27818.731,"text":"部長我帶您看這個是2022年的時候臺中市政府針對那個時候也是外界質疑發生額內事件的時候他們沒有處理好臺中市政府他們給臺中市議會的調查報告部長我建議您我現在不是在吹捧盧秀燕"},{"start":27819.671,"end":27848.678,"text":"我是很持平的看您回去看齁臺中市政府給臺中市議會的這份報告從內容的檢討到究責而且已給剪掉了已給剪掉他們提內容的檢討跟究責跟偵查不公開一點關係也沒有也沒有尾一倍我希望啦齁最起碼我們的衛福部未來在出報告的時候不要連地方政府出的報告都比不上"},{"start":27851.639,"end":27864.806,"text":"之前的報告是內容比較簡略其實是因為時間的關係至於剛剛委員提到這個刑事調查的過程其實不妨礙行政調查因為他的目的是不一樣的"},{"start":27864.926,"end":27880.028,"text":"部長 您說這樣的話我非常的認同啊終於有一個法律人站在備詢台上說實話了刑事司法的調查跟行政的調查是沒有相互衝突的嘛好很好"},{"start":27883.273,"end":27910.06,"text":"第二個問題是我要follow我上一次請教部長的問題蘇丹紅的事件我在這邊跟您說說你輸入的時間要公告你當天也給我承諾了嘛部長對吧我的記憶沒有錯啊你當天給我承諾啦說要公告啊但很奇怪啊我上去外府部食藥署的網站蘇丹紅不合格專區還是沒有輸入的時間啊"},{"start":27913.496,"end":27928.759,"text":"您答應我那食藥署不做是上令下面可以不服從嗎因為我相信部長不會騙我啊你答應我說輸入的時間當然要公開透明讓大家知道啊啊怎麼現在專區還沒有"},{"start":27930.878,"end":27954.944,"text":"這個我再確定一下因為這邊有寫說檢驗結果的日期這個是跟輸入的日期是否一致不一樣我現在可以直接跟部長講不一樣那如果是這樣的話那就少了一個好因為我為什麼一直在追輸入的日期下一張我馬上就秀答案給部長看因為那時候部長說我們2023年12月11號已經開始逐批查驗了"},{"start":27959.645,"end":27982.338,"text":"之前我在問高雄的公司的時候我覺得很奇怪竹坯茶園怎麼進得來您說那個是在竹坯茶園之前嘛但部長請您看一下我為什麼要追進口的進來的時間你有沒有看到啊在保興公司裡面有2024年1月2號跟2月17號1月2號跟2月17號那個是在竹坯茶園之後喔"},{"start":27986.019,"end":27999.03,"text":"那問題就來了啊既然都已經逐批查驗了怎麼在逐批查驗之後進來的還會被驗出來那不是在海關就要攔截了嗎部長您懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":28001.292,"end":28019.307,"text":"這是什麼狀況這我再釐清一下看看好 那個齁請部長齁就是說竟然已經逐批查驗逐批查驗給我們所有的消費者的信心就是說我們的政府在海關做好把關了嘛那顯然不是這個樣子啊逐批查驗了竟然還進來這個 這個是什麼狀況"},{"start":28022.941,"end":28044.29,"text":"這我再釐清一下請部長釐清完了以後給我一個完整的說明可以嗎因為這個真的會牽涉到消費者的信心喔如果當消費者知道說我們政府在海關逐批茶葉但是還有東西流進來那這個逐批茶葉可能就大有問題了這我們再把它釐清一下到底是怎麼樣OK好謝謝"},{"start":28048.021,"end":28049.962,"text":"主席謝謝我想在開始詢問之前我先做程序發言"},{"start":28071.707,"end":28096.406,"text":"早上9點鐘的時候民進黨的委員在這邊講說主席有可能不公正所以還要提案但是到目前整個這樣質詢下來現在已經是4點20分了我看到主席不管是國民黨委員、民進黨委員、民眾黨委員輪流質詢都是主持意識非常的明快果斷並且有效率"},{"start":28096.946,"end":28115.386,"text":"而且民進黨委員沒有一位表達說主席主持的不公正也因此我這邊再一次的鄭重講今天上午這樣的一個將近一個小時的時間有媒體下標說是藍綠互炒很抱歉"},{"start":28116.718,"end":28144.175,"text":"國民黨團從來沒有要吵國民黨團今天的目標目的就只有一個就是要求衛福部來為黃委員會好好的跟國人接受質詢並且說明清楚是今天民進黨團惡意的提出所謂的權宜問題並且誣衊主席不公正所以這邊本席在這邊在講發言之前質詢之前一定要再做一個這個程序發言"},{"start":28145.516,"end":28161.985,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我是不是可以請這個衛福部薛瑞文部長好來 部長請委員好部長發生這件事件大家都覺得非常難過對但是"},{"start":28164.312,"end":28179.35,"text":"每一個不幸的事件背後我們應該要記取教訓並且好好的去預防下一次有可能是在發生你同意嗎對我們什麼時候知道衛福部這邊知道說這個凱凱的一個不幸離世的事件"},{"start":28180.535,"end":28195.233,"text":"其實是在隔日啦,他死亡的隔日12月25號對,他就...衛福部知道,當時第一個通報的是保護司那再來台北市政府也有在通報社家屬"},{"start":28196.476,"end":28198.877,"text":"那我想請教全台灣有多少的這種收初養媒合的這一些未滿3歲的初養童"},{"start":28217.024,"end":28245.266,"text":"到目前為止,我們媒合了,衛福部這邊媒合了多少?我們之前掌握的是177個177位?對,還沒有衛滿3歲3歲以下的目前目前啦那媒合的?對,等待媒合那我說說已經媒合了,現在有保母收養的出養童,衛滿3歲現在有幾位?這要看什麼時候開始算"},{"start":28247.752,"end":28269.763,"text":"我們到現在還不知道嗎?已經收養成功了嘛,要看什麼時候開始算那會不會有我們這個出養的會不會有還有被虐待的問題?出養之後的被虐待那就是屬於這個家內的也就是說這個要通報,仍然是要通報啦"},{"start":28270.083,"end":28289.1,"text":"你再回過來釐清一下就是說本席現在想要釐清的是你12月25號、12月27號你們就已經知道衛福部就已經知道了嘛那當時沒有任何的警覺或是思考是說全台灣目前有多少一樣的狀況會不會也正遭受到"},{"start":28290.236,"end":28291.897,"text":"什麼時候請地方去了解的?"},{"start":28318.423,"end":28318.584,"text":"上個禮拜"},{"start":28321.346,"end":28346.495,"text":"所以你12月25號、27號就知道有凱凱這個事件發生了但你直到上個禮拜因為媒體報導出來之後你們才要地方政府趕快去看說現在有收養的177位有沒有一樣的狀況或是說有沒有被收養不妥對待那我想請教過去這兩三個月在做什麼對 所以我跟委員報告這程序上應該這樣當他通報之後他就要去開檢討的會議是地方"},{"start":28349.016,"end":28368.444,"text":"地方在10天之內召開檢討會議之後的話要在兩週之內把報告給我們現在的狀況是你12月25號、27號衛福部也知道了那全台灣有多少的這個初養童你說有177位是不是散播在全台灣"},{"start":28369.728,"end":28391.65,"text":"是嘛 他就不是只是單一縣市的問題嘛對 那現在就不管是說地方這邊什麼時候出去報告你照理講你衛福部身為中央主管機關你應該做一件事就是那我們趕快來確認即便是有社工每個月有去做確認但是如同凱凱這件事件來講他也是每個月有訪視啊"},{"start":28392.731,"end":28417.812,"text":"可是到時候發生這樣的憾事大家也是講是說是不是訪視的過程沒有落實沒有直接去看那你怎麼不會想是說那還有沒有其他的初養童也有一樣的狀況或是說我們至少多一份關心多一份瞭解對啦這個部分其實是在這個過程當中應該是提及早去做關心跟瞭解這我同意為什麼本席會講這樣的話"},{"start":28420.336,"end":28445.554,"text":"本期在交通委員會之前太魯閣事件的時候當時也沒有人想到是說有可能工地邊坡要施工而造成到時候太魯閣耗的一個狀況所以隔一天之後交通部馬上下令全台所有邊坡部分先停工去做一個禮拜內兩個禮拜去做一個徹底的釐清安全無虞之後然後才去開放施工"},{"start":28446.636,"end":28471.795,"text":"那一樣的道理嗎?當你們已經知道說12月25號、12月27號怎麼每個月都已經有社工委員去訪視了還會發生凱凱這樣子一個不幸的事件的時候還有147個初養童為什麼你們沒有一點點警覺心要去做查看?因為這一些其實都有一定的機制在做訪查就是有一定的機制凱凱這一家案件沒有一定的機制嗎?那為什麼還會發生這樣的情況?"},{"start":28476.789,"end":28495.302,"text":"不過我講比較不好意思這樣對得起離開的人嗎對阿所以這一個部分的話我們事後有就重新再查了一遍但是我跟委員報告這種事情會不會檢討在這件事件上面有沒有檢討當然有那會有相關的內部懲處究責嗎"},{"start":28501.426,"end":28520.213,"text":"這個應該不是內部懲處的問題因為以前的作業程序就是這個樣子那剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了就是說在法規的解釋上面過去就是這個樣子來那本席再請教部長你剛剛回覆喔說因為是時間太趕所以你報告寫得不好"},{"start":28521.033,"end":28538.634,"text":"是不是對本席也看到這報告我真的確實我沒有辦法看下去甚至我講是說你這種條列是一點一點的用GPT可能3秒鐘都生成出來當然我不是要我不是要否定我們公務同仁基層公務同仁的努力"},{"start":28539.275,"end":28561.232,"text":"可是這樣的報告你出來就是讓大家覺得說你衛福部不想面對好 那我請教剛剛你講說因為時間的關係你沒有辦法出具比較完整的報告那我們現在給你時間一個禮拜可不可以看委員會這邊的決議是怎樣一個禮拜可不可以退回給你們嘛早上已經退回給你們嘛"},{"start":28562.012,"end":28562.373,"text":"一個禮拜可不可以"},{"start":28587.145,"end":28595.894,"text":"一個禮拜交出針對這個案件後續的整個完整檢討報告剛剛黃國昌委員拿出了臺中市政府"},{"start":28597.045,"end":28614.385,"text":"的一個檢討報告本席也希望本席有看過那份檢討報告本席也希望我們至少有完整的面向整體的一個考量讓國人知道說衛福部真的是完真的中央地方其實應該是一條心"},{"start":28615.947,"end":28615.967,"text":"好"},{"start":28638.502,"end":28657.697,"text":"最後 抱歉主席一分鐘時間社工員也是真的是非常的辛苦所以本席想要請教一下之前我們有提到在112年底增加禁用包括地方政府的專業人員包括這一些社工缺工的問題說"},{"start":28659.919,"end":28672.048,"text":"112年年底增加禁用達6198人那請教我們預計到目前有達到我們衛福部預計的6198人目前的話是4190還差了快2000人社工的部分還差了快2000人是不是剛剛6199是全部的專業"},{"start":28683.677,"end":28701.442,"text":"6199是全部的專業人員那社工是我們希望達到4190那目前的話實際上的這一個所有的從業的人員是5452所以大概已經達到87%社工的部分是3733人所以大概是89%"},{"start":28706.857,"end":28726.983,"text":"都還是沒有達到預期那經過這個事件本席當然不希望但大家會講是說有可能是社工荒因為保護新的社工也面臨高風險、高案量、高壓力的三高以及缺乏督導合作資源的三缺那這樣的一個部分衛福部到底有沒有"},{"start":28728.467,"end":28742.726,"text":"正是這個問題要來做解決?對,這當然我們會針對問題去做解決一方面的話就是而且經過凱凱這個事件讓全國看到會不會有可能也增加社工員聘請的困難?"},{"start":28745.024,"end":28762.152,"text":"這要觀察啦本席當然不希望因為社工除了他有他的一個工作使命以外社工當然他們也很專業但是另外一方面我們也不能要求社工只是當做功德所以合理的報酬跟合理的待遇一定要提供"},{"start":28762.972,"end":28763.792,"text":"未來經濟要怎麼做?"},{"start":28786.217,"end":28800.027,"text":"這部分的話當然就是說一方面當然委員提到了薪資的問題是薪資的改善第二個是他需要資源他是需要有人來支持這支持包括社工內部的支持跟"},{"start":28801.789,"end":28818.209,"text":"社工之外的人員的支持,比如說出去出勤的時候,有的針對不同的個案,可能需要警察人員陪同,這樣子的一個支持。內部的支持就是說,"},{"start":28822.023,"end":28822.644,"text":"我們謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢"},{"start":28850.799,"end":28857.045,"text":"接下來我們請黃珊珊黃珊珊黃珊珊委員不在羅志強羅志強羅志強委員不在我們請羅廷偉委員進行質詢"},{"start":28877.918,"end":28891.851,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎 原來"},{"start":28893.292,"end":28912.035,"text":"我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意"},{"start":28912.575,"end":28929.709,"text":"那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長好部長好"},{"start":28938.086,"end":28964.021,"text":"部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總諮詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想"},{"start":28965.962,"end":28986.239,"text":"大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長凱凱這個事件呢我個人認為"},{"start":28987.461,"end":29004.803,"text":"當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是"},{"start":29006.364,"end":29015.334,"text":"中央、地方都有責任我不是一昧的就是要把它推卸給任何一個單位但我們希望關注到的是藉由這件事情發生了我們怎麼去把它給彌補出來"},{"start":29019.466,"end":29043.033,"text":"第一個我想政府的保姆訓練阿怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎"},{"start":29044.771,"end":29048.865,"text":"這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的一個新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳"},{"start":29052.033,"end":29079.531,"text":"應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是"},{"start":29080.071,"end":29099.331,"text":"在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都"},{"start":29100.812,"end":29127.001,"text":"竿子打翻所有的人我想在這個托育人員以及社工真的是他們的士氣非常的低迷我想這個部分也是我們今天要探討的我想在這樣子凱凱的一個特殊的孩子的一個背景之下沒有爸爸媽媽的疼愛那祖父母也養不起所以只能選擇出養但在這麼多的一個保姆為什麼會選擇流性保姆他的標準在哪裡這部分你有要補充嗎"},{"start":29129.165,"end":29134.611,"text":"這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的"},{"start":29136.071,"end":29164.007,"text":"部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲這是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這一個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善"},{"start":29168.01,"end":29190.968,"text":"請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這一個多方的一個訪查"},{"start":29192.269,"end":29216.904,"text":"來互相來做這個check跟監督啊,這樣會比較有…謝謝,那我就補充一下啊,臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制,所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎?我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣,如果同時三方一起去的話,大概效果就不好"},{"start":29218.784,"end":29244.13,"text":"應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。"},{"start":29245.11,"end":29269.231,"text":"對 所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對 但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦 當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺啦勞師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎"},{"start":29269.771,"end":29288.98,"text":"對 我們現在就是打算這樣做那再來呢 我也要跟你 因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論以及網路的一些相關資訊但我這邊呢 會後我想提供包括臺中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書到現在 雞北北桃"},{"start":29290.02,"end":29316.434,"text":"我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的"},{"start":29317.515,"end":29331.349,"text":"你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練"},{"start":29333.459,"end":29357.442,"text":"他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所,要能夠有這種零託但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛,可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊"},{"start":29357.862,"end":29383.27,"text":"他就是托育人員他總要他要跟欸對不起羅廷偉立委今天我不帶你的孩子麻煩你把你的孩子帶回去因為我要在職訓練對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧"},{"start":29383.55,"end":29398.562,"text":"那您就要看著我抱著孩子來這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積"},{"start":29400.223,"end":29420.916,"text":"對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的這真的是家長要的嗎給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員"},{"start":29421.817,"end":29422.257,"text":"剛剛有很多人為社工講話"},{"start":29444.921,"end":29469.48,"text":"他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日"},{"start":29470.697,"end":29490.633,"text":"那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本行建議"},{"start":29493.055,"end":29501.099,"text":"您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎"},{"start":29509.645,"end":29533.333,"text":"當然如果有時間的話是可以的,不過我沒有把握說一定卡得出來我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦,有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我真的是要真的特別麻煩你,如果有空的話請讓你親自去,如果沒空我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意,讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們,去了解他們的心聲"},{"start":29534.153,"end":29558.37,"text":"我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防治壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點"},{"start":29559.611,"end":29560.011,"text":"其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點"},{"start":29583.664,"end":29607.435,"text":"你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論"},{"start":29611.457,"end":29612.177,"text":"好 我們謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢"},{"start":29640.873,"end":29643.037,"text":"許宇珍、羅明財、萬美玲、吳佩儀委員"},{"start":29651.192,"end":29663.139,"text":"王美惠委員不在王鴻薇委員不在鄭振淺委員不在林德福委員不在徐欣穎委員不在李坤澄委員不在何欣淳委員不在張家俊委員不在游皓委員不在鍾嘉斌委員不在吳思瑤委員不在"},{"start":29680.31,"end":29682.751,"text":"我們請牛許庭委員進行質詢好,謝謝主席,這個衛福部長有請好,我們請部長"},{"start":29701.67,"end":29721.701,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出若干問題來跟部長做一下探討"},{"start":29723.222,"end":29741.93,"text":"從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。"},{"start":29745.434,"end":29772.632,"text":"這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除的原因"},{"start":29773.272,"end":29797.931,"text":"但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒有啦沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎"},{"start":29799.867,"end":29807.191,"text":"據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的"},{"start":29827.549,"end":29852.325,"text":"因為沒有合作過所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家即便有家庭願意收養"},{"start":29853.186,"end":29853.206,"text":"沒關係"},{"start":29874.639,"end":29893.527,"text":"我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣,國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩"},{"start":29894.187,"end":29918.073,"text":"那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎"},{"start":29919.613,"end":29946.986,"text":"不是,不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養人、收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嗎?我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛,要不然萬一又要收出養後在家裡面處得不愉快大家回頭過來究責,大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講,它證明了一件事啊"},{"start":29947.426,"end":29966.934,"text":"就是說我們如果我們這個要交給這個從收出養的方式交給民間自行處理這個孩童被無人照顧的問題我們我們我們把這些防防跟防賊一樣大家非常小心非常謹慎可是今天這兒戀案事實證明政府政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇"},{"start":29968.235,"end":29990.037,"text":"所以說 流程和成本 某一方面有做研究調查 有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜 太過嚴格甚至要花成本 送件的費用 後續的追蹤的費用 還有上課還要跑到在地去上課 這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後 有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性"},{"start":29991.599,"end":30015.933,"text":"報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完"},{"start":30016.934,"end":30036.452,"text":"好 但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告OK 可以好不好 這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以這回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個"},{"start":30037.153,"end":30037.293,"text":"會不會做檢討跟修正?"},{"start":30054.398,"end":30081.624,"text":"目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分"},{"start":30083.035,"end":30098.363,"text":"所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他"},{"start":30099.823,"end":30125.056,"text":"現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?"},{"start":30127.348,"end":30148.509,"text":"我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的"},{"start":30149.649,"end":30166.836,"text":"以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候"},{"start":30167.196,"end":30190.644,"text":"是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆"},{"start":30191.479,"end":30193.58,"text":"今天就要求我們重做報告然後剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的"},{"start":30221.5,"end":30221.921,"text":"吳秉瑞委員不在"},{"start":30238.257,"end":30254.092,"text":"那我想今天的這個會議的巡打全部都已經結束那今天這次會議的討論是非常的有意義的因為透過一整天的討論不同的委員從不同的角度都給衛福部不同的建議那這個剛剛部長也承諾在一週後"},{"start":30257.891,"end":30264.577,"text":"會把更詳細、完整的整個衛福部針對從這次個案到整個系統的檢討會有一個非常完整的報告跟說明那我們希望這個衛福部在這個部分可以把這個所有的委員的意見還有好的這個未來的改革方向都納入那我們的目的只有一個就是讓我們的社會安全網可以更強韌讓我們用集體的力量"},{"start":30285.613,"end":30298.421,"text":"來防止下一個惡虐的悲劇再發生。今天委員吳春晨、顏寬恆、沈博洋、林德輔、陳冠廷、張雅玲、葉元芝、羅志強、"},{"start":30299.813,"end":30329.065,"text":"所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定謝謝今天出席的官員還有關心的媒體朋友還有所有的議事人員我們今天開會時間比較長那是為了讓我們的孩子得到更好的保護本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":30335.38,"end":30335.621,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30357.505,"end":30357.945,"text":"主席"},{"start":30373.863,"end":30374.063,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30401.62,"end":30403.081,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}