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台積電對國家基金貢獻很大對陳儒今天剛剛很多委員在問國家基金很多都虧錢啊"},{"start":53.149,"end":69.455,"text":"那因為台積電的關係讓古巴基金能夠有剩餘啦有很大的貢獻但是我們其他的投資還有將近100億的收入對啦但是台積電是應該是貢獻最大的啦所以我覺得這個主委應該要關心台積電的發展"},{"start":70.655,"end":91.376,"text":"那我昨天也跟經濟部長也詢問因為台積電他是有獲得美國的66億的補助美元的補助可是有要求說A16的先進製程必須要移到美國去那經濟部所有的官員都樂觀其成就這樣棒主委你身為台積電大股東你的看法如何"},{"start":92.342,"end":106.87,"text":"就我的了解他現在是3奈米跟4奈米那2奈米就我的了解還不會過去因為他必須要經過實驗成功那3奈米是在原計畫裡面就會過去"},{"start":108.231,"end":124.17,"text":"所以只有3奈米A16的限季支撐也不會過去?排積電有跟我解釋那A16是產品的部分那產品的部分其實要看如果他A16一般來講進到3奈米是有可能過去的有可能過去那你也是這關啟程嗎?"},{"start":125.236,"end":142.953,"text":"倒不是樂觀其成不樂觀其成這是一個政治因素政治因素那這個屬於在美國生產的很多美國客戶的訂單會進去這個是要看他的因為他成本比較高這個的確他美國的成本比較高那那個成本如果能夠被買方接受那買方下單台積電就會出貨"},{"start":144.734,"end":165.729,"text":"那只要是在3奈米或是在4奈米的台積電也會出貨,因為他可以製造,他不可能不接受。所以我跟你請教一下,因為本來經濟部長是講說12月的時候,台積電在美國的廠開幕會有一個完工典禮。那時候經濟部長是這樣子講的,可是後來隔不久張忠謀就說沒有人要完工典禮。"},{"start":166.911,"end":181.973,"text":"那因為你是大股東嘛對你之前有受邀嗎沒有沒有完全都沒有受邀我們是只有2月份2月10號左右會在那邊開董事會董事會可是之前有傳出完工典禮的時候有沒有說先邀請您去後來又跟你說不辦"},{"start":182.754,"end":199.574,"text":"之前沒有如果有會邀請我像歐洲那次德國那次就有邀請就有邀請但這次沒有邀請這次應該還沒有辦可是我們就覺得很奇怪啊為什麼部長一開始說有後來張忠謀又說沒有其中的轉折是什麼應該以台積電的聲音為主吧對為什麼那部長為什麼會說有"},{"start":201.382,"end":228.469,"text":"所以你從頭到尾都沒有接到要完工典禮的消息就對了沒有那經濟部告訴我們講說其實不擔心台積電有一些製程會移到美國去他們的說法是說因為台積電未來每一年都會在台灣設廠每一年都會設廠所以我們的製程是永遠會領先美國所以不用擔心是這樣告訴我們目前是這樣台積電每一年都要設廠的話那目前最近三年的規劃是什麼"},{"start":229.485,"end":248.546,"text":"例如今年、明年、後年會在哪個縣市?其實我知道在高雄跟台南高雄、台南然後再來因為每一年都要設廠接下來台中也會有台中也會有所以未來三年已經都規劃好了就這三個地方主委我現在想要請教一個問題"},{"start":250.268,"end":266.982,"text":"如果台積電要在每一年都要一個設廠的話那用電一定要確保嗎?因為它用電量很高用電用水我們都有都有已經保障了都有定期在溝通那因為之前我看您在提到核電的時候啊你有講到就是說不反對核電但是後來你又改口了"},{"start":267.422,"end":271.806,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":288.982,"end":292.645,"text":"那再來是安全無虞我們現在就是要確保用電無虞因為我是看到你講說不一定要用核電因為產業在乎的是有沒有電而不是什麼電然後你也有提到"},{"start":307.155,"end":322.101,"text":"合安法一定要實施嗎?合安法必須依法有共識其實都可以修法有態度都可以修法那是另外一個問題你有提到說沒有核電沒關係因為我們輕能現在已經要發展可是我這"},{"start":323.622,"end":325.563,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院地區永續發展"},{"start":346.568,"end":373.518,"text":"所以你能夠保證就是說不用核電的狀況下用電都沒問題這就你的了解這個部分我跟台電問過了那是台電的保證因為我沒辦法幫台電保證我只能轉達台電跟我的保證因為你是台積電大股東你也要站在台積電跟國家發展的角度用電的部分要說真話啦謝謝我今天對你特別好有比較好可能是昨天有覺得虧欠我我一點都不虧欠你我是等下一位委員"},{"start":377.379,"end":377.903,"text":"你要行個禮啊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時58分）主席好，麻煩請國發會劉主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：你們國發基金是台積電的大股東，現在是有16.53億的股票，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["葉委員元之：16.53億的股票，今年台積電總共貢獻多少股利？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：今年預計會超過100億。"],["葉委員元之：超過100億，有兩百多億嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，100……"],["葉委員元之：一百幾十億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大概200億左右。"],["葉委員元之：200億左右是不是？所以實際上台積電對國發基金貢獻很大啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["葉委員元之：誠如今天剛剛很多委員在問，國發基金很多都虧錢，因為台積電的關係，讓國發基金能夠有賸餘，有很大的貢獻。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是我們其他的投資還有將近100億的收入。"],["葉委員元之：對啦，但是台積電應該是貢獻最大的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以我覺得主委應該要關心台積電的發展，我昨天也跟經濟部長詢問，台積電有獲得美國66億美元的補助嘛。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["葉委員元之：可是有要求A16的先進製程必須要移到美國去，經濟部所有的官員都樂觀其成，說這樣很棒！我不知道主委你身為台積電大股東，你的看法如何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我的了解，它現在是3奈米跟4奈米嘛。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：2奈米就我的了解還不會過去，因為它必須要經過實驗成功；3奈米是在原計畫裡面就會過去的。"],["葉委員元之：所以只有3奈米？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["葉委員元之：A16的先進製程也不會過去？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電有跟我解釋，A16是產品的部分，產品的部分其實要看，A16一般來講進到3奈米是有可能過去的。"],["葉委員元之：有可能過去？你也是樂觀其成嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：倒不是樂觀其成或不樂觀其成，這是一個政治因素。"],["葉委員元之：政治因素？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個屬於在美國生產的，很多美國客戶的訂單會進去，這個是要看……因為它成本比較高，的確美國的成本比較高，這個成本如果能夠被買方接受，買方下單，台積電就會出貨，只要是3奈米或是4奈米的，台積電也會出貨，因為它可以製造，它不可能不接受。"],["葉委員元之：是，主委，我跟你請教一下，因為本來經濟部長是講說12月的時候台積電在美國的廠開幕時會有一個完工典禮，那時候經濟部長是這樣子講的，可是後來隔不久，張忠謀就說沒有要完工典禮。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["葉委員元之：因為你是大股東，你之前有受邀嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：完全都沒有受邀？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們只有在2月份，2月10號左右會在那邊開董事會。"],["葉委員元之：可是之前有傳出完工典禮的時候，有沒有先邀請您去，後來又跟你說不辦了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：之前沒有，如果有會邀請我，像歐洲那次，德國那次就有邀請。"],["葉委員元之：但這次沒有邀請？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這次應該還沒有辦。"],["葉委員元之：可是我們就覺得很奇怪啊，為什麼部長一開始說有，後來張忠謀又說沒有，其中的轉折是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該以台積電的聲音為主吧！"],["葉委員元之：對，為什麼？那部長為什麼會說有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我就不清楚了。"],["葉委員元之：所以你從頭到尾都都沒有接到要完工典禮的消息就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：好，經濟部告訴我們，其實不擔心台積電有一些製程會移到美國去，他們的說法是因為台積電未來每一年都會在臺灣設廠，我們的製程永遠會領先美國，所以不用擔心，是這樣告訴我們的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下每一年都要設廠的話，最近三年的規劃是什麼？比如今年、明年、後年要在哪個縣市？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實我知道，在高雄跟臺南。"],["葉委員元之：然後再來咧？因為每一年都要設廠。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：接下來臺中也會有。"],["葉委員元之：所以未來三年已經都規劃好了，就是這三個地方？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["葉委員元之：主委，我現在想要跟你請教一個問題，如果台積電每一年都要設廠的話，用電一定要確保，因為它的用電量很高。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：用電、用水我們都有定期在溝通。"],["葉委員元之：因為之前我看您在提到核電的時候你講到不反對核電，但是後來你又改口了，說不反對核電不代表支持核電，然後你又提到說……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不、不、不，我還原一下當時的情況，因為那一次只有一個媒體在提，我們只是希望在野跟執政的政府能夠達到共識；第二個事情就是社會也要達到共識；再來是安全無虞；再來是法律允許，這四個條件應該要……"],["葉委員元之：我們現在就是要確保用電無虞啦，因為我是看到你講說不一定要用核電，因為產業在乎的是有沒有電，而不是什麼電，然後你……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那委員，我再還原一下……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，沒有，因為我時間快到了，然後你也有提到就是說……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為核安法一定要實施嘛……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，那個核安法有共識……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以它必須依法shut down。"],["葉委員元之：不是，有共識其實都可以修法。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那從企業的角度要比較務實……"],["葉委員元之：有態度都可以修法，那是另外一個問題啦。那你有提到沒有核電也沒關係，因為我們的氫能現在已經要發展了，可是我之前有質詢過環境部長，他說氫能之後其實都是一點點而已。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：根據國際的報告，氫能是2035年才會開始起來。"],["葉委員元之：那還非常久，但我們現在講的是未來幾年，講到2035年就太久了。所以實際上，主委，您的說法其實不能夠讓國人放心，用電無虞。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是有誤解。"],["葉委員元之：可是媒體都這樣報導啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是……"],["葉委員元之：所以你能夠保證不用核電的狀況下用電都沒問題？就你的了解。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分我跟台電問過了……"],["葉委員元之：台電說可以？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是台電的保證，因為我沒辦法幫台電保證……"],["葉委員元之：台電說可以？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我只能轉達台電跟我的保證。"],["葉委員元之：因為你是台積電大股東啦，你也要站在台積電跟國家發展的角度，用電的部分要說真話啦，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷不在。","麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","陳培瑜、陳培瑜、陳培瑜不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員蔡易餘所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會；各位同仁針對預算案如有修正動議或相關提案，請於11月27日（星期三）下午5點之前送經濟委員會辦公室，以利後續彙整，逾時不再收案；預算提案彙整之後，請國發會相關的同仁能夠儘速去跟各位委員做一些說明跟溝通。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","陳超明","呂玉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院歲入預算第5款第1項第2目暨國家發展委員會及所\n屬單位預算部分；二、審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主\n管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}