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有少年或犯罪嫌疑人的具體公訴．是否自首或自白．以及應該繼續實施的偵查方法或計畫．還有勘驗、現場模擬或鑑定的．詳細時程跟計畫．"},{"start":2492.563,"end":2508.861,"text":"有招致、淹滅、偽造、變造證據之餘．被害人、被挾持中、尚未脫險、安全、看慮者．以及偵查中的卷宗、筆錄、影音資料﹐照片、電池記錄或其他重要文件、物品．"},{"start":2509.844,"end":2529.939,"text":"還有被告或犯罪嫌疑人的犯罪前科資料等以及列舉的好幾個包括了犯罪嫌疑人的隱私、被害人跟親屬的隱私跟名譽、少年事件足以辨識其身份等等這個在明文規定都是不得公開的"},{"start":2530.419,"end":2552.421,"text":"不過不得公開還是有例外的情形．比如影音的資料、照片或物品有特別說明或澄清是必要的經機關首長核准以識別化處理後得適度公開不過仍然為維護重大公共利益的情形得不去識別化來處理"},{"start":2554.019,"end":2554.76,"text":"本部積極督導檢察機關落實偵查不公開的相關作為"},{"start":2561.611,"end":2590.061,"text":"本部督導偵查不公開、督導小組的設置要求各檢察機關定期公布偵查不公開、檢討小組的檢討報告及相關查處的情形在108年6月18日我們會中決議了請高檢署設置偵查不公開、督導小組最高檢也設置督導小組督導內亂、外患、妨害、國交等屬於二審管轄案件的偵查不公開"},{"start":2591.061,"end":2608.526,"text":"各檢察機關、調查局還有廉政署都要召開偵查不公開的檢討小組並將檢討報告及相關查處的情形每半年自行對外公布。第二,機關組成的偵查不公開檢討小組上級機關組成偵查不公開督導小組是就當即相關新聞報導加以檢討並有相關懲處來對外說明"},{"start":2623.291,"end":2625.376,"text":"至於高檢署他也曾經召開會議並"},{"start":2628.446,"end":2655.925,"text":"來定名要劃定採訪區及採訪禁制區的一個標準那目前全國檢查機關依辦公處所大小空間規劃以會議室、簡報室、新聞發布室、記者招待室等作為媒體採訪地點都是合乎規定的並採取因地制宜的做法那因個案的需求臨時指定採訪地點也是可以的"},{"start":2656.705,"end":2683.505,"text":"本部在111年6月16日也召開了會議要求各檢察機關應定期公布偵查不公開檢討情形由各地檢署建立初步過濾的機制對於相關的新聞資料予以篩選凡有違反偵查不公開與濾的案件都應該提報會議來討論並統一律定當年度的7月還有次年度的1月"},{"start":2684.245,"end":2710.72,"text":"必須就討論件數、位於偵查不公開作為辦法公開或揭露的件數、查辦的件數、處分的人數等資料公布一次。高檢署確實在111年10月6日也又召開檢討會議由新北、台南、宜蘭地檢署就矚目案件偵查不公開以新聞發布案例與與會代表分享"},{"start":2712.618,"end":2735.896,"text":"再就我們偵查不公開相關流程缺失的檢討報告如下第一 各地檢署廣泛收集媒體報導﹐落實執行偵查不公開檢討小組會議的會議結論第二 為增進發言人的知能本部辦理定期教育訓練第三 為敦促司法警察共同遵守偵查不公開的相關規定本部加強與他機關間的橫向聯繫"},{"start":2739.219,"end":2746.645,"text":"本部未來將針對偵查不公開作為要點設計立稿式的簽呈協助檢察機關及偵查輔助機關作為發布新聞時判斷的參考"},{"start":2751.36,"end":2779.111,"text":"最後結語在偵查程序中為了維護偵查程序的順利進行及真實發現同時為保障被告、犯罪嫌疑人、被害人及其他訴訟關係人的名譽、隱私、安全以確保被告受公平審判的權利落實無罪推定原則本部將持續督導偵查不公開各項檢討措施以符合法律規定及兼顧公共利益的維護以上報告那敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2780.051,"end":2785.024,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我們再請那個內政部警政署警視警察局局長報告"},{"start":2791.685,"end":2813.159,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在場的先進、早安、大家好今天應要列席貴委員會代表內政部警政署來做工作報告並備質詢請就本署落實偵查不公開的原則跟相關流程缺失的檢討報告如下請這個指教"},{"start":2815.52,"end":2829.332,"text":"為了落實偵查不公開的作業辦法規範要求本署有訂定警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則注意要點供各警察機關來遵循"},{"start":2830.373,"end":2835.077,"text":"規範內容涵蓋偵查機密的維護及防制濫發新聞兩大面向．相關細節請參閱第二部分為督導各警察機關．落實偵查不公開規範．"},{"start":2847.006,"end":2863.744,"text":"本屬刑事警察局組成偵查不公開的督導小組常態性來監看各警察機關偵辦刑案的新聞案件如果發現有違反偵查不公開的情勢會含交該警察局或是該總隊來查處"},{"start":2866.247,"end":2877.999,"text":"統計到108年到現在就是3月15號一共交查涉嫌疑涉違反偵查不公開案件有192件其中查屬實違反規定有102件 懲處維持人士人員有137人"},{"start":2886.671,"end":2913.858,"text":"第三．對於重大的缺失案例本市會利用公開的場合迅速檢討近期臺北市政府應徵辦保姆內同案具體社工上課移送遭媒體拍攝一次遭外界質疑批評本市也會在我們的刑事工作會報提出檢討透過個案的缺失檢討讓各警察機關共同改善避免發生相同的錯誤"},{"start":2914.898,"end":2942.955,"text":"第4本署將持續督促各警察機關．落實偵查不公開作業規定．令透過定期教育訓練．增進警察人員媒體應對之溝通及技巧．與相關案例的檢討．一些研析跟測進．督促同仁與實務上落實執行．以兼顧偵查程序維護．人權保障跟公共利益以上報告請各位委員先進適宜指教謝謝"},{"start":2944.192,"end":2944.373,"text":"好 局長謝謝"},{"start":2946.192,"end":2973.426,"text":"那軍安代表報告完畢那我們現在相關的書面報告我們列入公報的記錄好那我們現在開始進行詢答那本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本委員會的委員詢答時間為5分鐘不得再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2983.584,"end":2984.224,"text":"請部長及副秘書長上台,謝謝"},{"start":3020.672,"end":3048.753,"text":"兩位早我想先請教一下部長你們在今天的書面報告裡面提到說各個地檢署會定期公布偵查不公開檢討小組的檢討報告部長你有看過這個檢討報告嗎?他們公布在網路上你有看過嗎?我有看過你覺得那個檢討報告的內容充實嗎?可以再更充實你知道那個檢討報告長什麼樣子嗎?它是格式化的"},{"start":3050.59,"end":3070.868,"text":"這樣的檢討報告就一張紙涵蓋了過去這四年上面只有數字完全沒有任何內容這個是什麼檢討報告沒有檢討任何事啊上面只有一個數字啊那是他對外公布的一個對啊"},{"start":3072.592,"end":3091.141,"text":"現在要求上網公告的檢討報告就這張紙上面只有數字然後下面應該受查處的人數全部都是0做得非常的好沒有關係阿我現在進入阿對嘛上面上面就這些數字嘛我們現在針對實質的問題開始討論"},{"start":3100.845,"end":3117.054,"text":"在總質詢的時候當我問到吹哨者保護法院長說我現在雖然沒有吹哨者保護法可是各個行政機關他們都各自有吹哨者保護的措施我那時候說沒關係我們接下來會一個部會一個部會看去年6月的時候IMB案"},{"start":3123.803,"end":3150.278,"text":"造成社會非常大的風波我那個時候安排一個秘密證人到北檢去作證他們給秘密證人的承諾是絕對不會去泄露他作證的內容跟他的身份結果我安排去了以後沒有多久進週刊就報導出來了就是他裡面所講的內容那個時候"},{"start":3151.365,"end":3175.979,"text":"我是一個公民我公開的質問要求台北地檢署針對這件事情給社會大眾一個交代但目前為止但目前為止我沒有接到任何的回應沒有接到任何的回應是不是有檢討檢討的結果是什麼因為這件事情絕對不可能推到警察現場只有四個人"},{"start":3177.151,"end":3201.746,"text":"檢察官、書記官、秘密證人、法警這個內容怎麼泄出去的我希望臺北地檢署公開回應結果他們可能覺得一般公民對他們所提出來的質疑他沒有必要回應我看這個檢討報告什麼內容都沒有上面全部都是零部長這樣子算是有做到偵查不公開嗎"},{"start":3203.876,"end":3219.079,"text":"我們是有要求那每個地檢署要就他們相關的報導要收集彙整如果有涉及到違反偵查不公開要檢查你覺得這樣有沒有違反偵查不公開這樣還沒有違反偵查不公開是誰說的是檢察官說的書記官說的沒有其他人知道啦沒有其他人知道啦我看到這個報導以後我非常憤怒啊"},{"start":3233.544,"end":3258.674,"text":"我公開批判希望北檢給大家一個交代結果到目前為止北檢一點澄清都沒有這件事情有在檢討報告裡嗎沒有喔我看出來查辦跟全部這些數字到底指的是什麼案件沒有人知道但是大家只知道結論我們沒有違反偵查不公開第二件事情"},{"start":3263.769,"end":3292.452,"text":"台灣高檢署說有劃定採訪區採訪禁制區的標準我看完了這個報告我只想請問記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室去採訪嗎可以嗎他們有要求在限制的一個地區啊對我上面看了嘛會議室、檢報室、新聞發布室、記者招待室嘛這是你們上面報告寫的內容啊我的問題很具體啊記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室去嗎"},{"start":3293.885,"end":3293.985,"text":"好啦!"},{"start":3322.315,"end":3349.681,"text":"地檢署各自行負責上面這個就是檢察官辦公室啊滿地的卷宗啊全部喔那個是偵查一秘密的事項全部的卷宗都在上面是記者啊把那個檢察官辦公室啊在那邊打卡拍照啊顯示自己很罩很厲害啊這個有沒有違反偵查不公開"},{"start":3352.597,"end":3368.181,"text":"偵查不公開是針對案件的內容至於其他事情的報導是在這個辦法裡面所肯定的你要包庇成這樣喔今天你自己的書面報告上面就有寫喔台灣高等檢察署召開會議喔劃定採訪區還有採訪禁制區喔所以我剛才問你嘛那是指採訪所以認為這不是採訪"},{"start":3376.554,"end":3401.461,"text":"這也許他只是 我不曉得真正的實情啦但是不能只看這個照片就推定都是在採訪而且違反了這個案例你覺得這個記者可以走到檢察官辦公室裡面去做什麼去喝茶喔你包庇成這個樣子喔這不叫包庇 在座很多的記者這樣認為是包庇嗎還是記者不能跟檢察官有一些溝通交往嗎"},{"start":3402.914,"end":3413.581,"text":"我什麼時候說記者不可以跟檢察官有溝通交流啊採訪區是你們自己講的喔我現在的問題可以直接到檢察官辦公室去嗎"},{"start":3415.353,"end":3430.918,"text":"可以直接到檢討官辦公室去嗎他如果有登記我今天要找某一位我是什麼事情法警會讓他進去你如果說啦我們有限制啊按照你今天在這邊講的這個東西這個出面報告全部都是廢話怎麼還有採訪區還有採訪禁制區全部都廢了嘛"},{"start":3435.444,"end":3445.707,"text":"全部都廢了根本沒有限制的必要如果連檢察官辦公室都可以這樣登堂入室整個辦公室裡面全部都是券這是哪門偵查不公開沒關係 我們繼續再往下看調查局的高官可以接受偵查對象的招待嗎可不可以我們請調查局來說明"},{"start":3463.181,"end":3488.835,"text":"調查局的高官可以接受偵辦對象的招待嗎已經立案調查了結果立案調查了以後繼續跟這些富商權貴不是只有吃飯還出去打高爾夫球結果等到搜索的時候搜索的結果還要跟跟他一起去打高爾夫球的人報告可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":3491.301,"end":3510.279,"text":"請教是各位報告您講的這個內容齁如果是這樣的話當然是不可以絕對是不可以的絕對是不可以的調查局知道這個調查的內容嘛如果不可以的話但是我跟您報告您講的是台辣的這個案子是那吃飯的這些名單上面齁"},{"start":3512.161,"end":3537.677,"text":"監察院調查的這個報告上面的名單的我們這些同仁那當時的是嘉義縣調查站在偵辦的案子那桃園有沒有參與桃園是在搜索的時候有參與嘛對不對資源部分的搜索好 那個時候桃園市廖處的處長是誰當時是應該是廖處長廖榮旭有沒有跟被偵辦的對象去打高爾夫球"},{"start":3540.15,"end":3558.063,"text":"請你針對問題回答廖榮旭在偵辦的期間有沒有跟偵辦的對象去打高爾夫球他跟對方來往可以看的那個報告看得出來他跟他來往是一段長時間的來往但是他並沒有他當時這些我們的同仁都不是"},{"start":3559.232,"end":3573.523,"text":"加一線的主管都不是加一線的主管而且我們執行的時候執行完了以後桃園去執行的調查官有沒有跟廖榮去報告搜索的結果"},{"start":3575.202,"end":3600.236,"text":"有還是沒有這個部分桃園地檢署這邊也立案就這個部分在做偵查當中那是不是這個部分有違反偵查不公開有洩密或其他的這個不法的狀況我們也正在配合起來有沒有洩密那個是偵查歸刑事偵查啦現在我在挑戰的是調查局到底做了什麼樣的處置啊為什麼我說我在挑戰的是調查"},{"start":3602.159,"end":3608.054,"text":"來我們先看一下公務員年政倫理規範公務員不得參與與其職務有利害關係人的"},{"start":3610.201,"end":3634.851,"text":"引厭應酬嘛但有下列情況之一不在此限來請教一下副局長廖榮旭是符合哪一條但書的規定是我跟委員報告因為這個部分他是因為公務禮儀嗎包含了經濟犯罪的這個案件的本身還有泄密的這個部分兩個案子都在偵查當中等這兩個案子到一個段落之後我們就行政的這個部分一定會來追究責任我分兩個層次啦"},{"start":3636.252,"end":3653.789,"text":"行事偵查歸行事偵查行政懲處歸行政懲處當初司法院那些法官他們接受台南那個富商招待的時候司法院有說我們要等到行事偵查告一個段落我們再來處理嗎有嗎"},{"start":3656.472,"end":3678.703,"text":"標準是這樣嗎?如果連法官標準都不是這樣現在是調查局比較大就對了報告委員其實這個部分我們也在就當天執行搜索的桃園處的參與的相關的同仁我們也在做行政調查我們已經跟當天參與的同仁都已經做了部分查證後續我們都還會繼續在調查什麼時候調查結果會出來我們會盡快來處理盡快是多久"},{"start":3684.887,"end":3696.236,"text":"盡快是多久?我在這邊不敢跟您講一個說我一定來天會做到但是我們一定回去會盡快處理一個月之內會做到嗎?我們盡量兩個月可以嗎?要第二兩年我們會盡快來處理的連一個距離的時間都不敢做這件事情是今天才知道嗎?可以這樣搞喔?拖了多久啦?因為涉及到的都是調查局的高官"},{"start":3714.286,"end":3718.549,"text":"所以辦高關速度很慢不敢動可以這樣搞嗎請副局長回去喔結束這件事情要給社會大眾表達可以嗎可以好 謝謝那 呃 請回好 接下來我們請省發會委員發言"},{"start":3758.107,"end":3769.91,"text":"主席我想我們先請司法院副院長跟法務部好那我們請部長跟那個副秘書長上台我先請問黃副秘書長這個我們目前齁我們剛才有這麼多的討論齁但是這個"},{"start":3783.783,"end":3799.257,"text":"我們現在這個有關偵查不公開的它的最高位階的法令就是刑事訴訟法嘛對不對刑事訴訟法第245條是我們司法院主管的這個法令但因此依據這個刑事訴訟法第245條它所授權我們制定的這個偵查不公開作業辦法"},{"start":3812.368,"end":3834.149,"text":"這個也是由我們司法院那會嫌法務部嗎?跟委員報告是由司法院會嫌行政院去發布對,會嫌行政院嘛那行政院應該是由法務部這邊來提供意見那因此我們整個簡單講就是說在我們目前的司法體系裡面有關偵查不公開的部分的主管"},{"start":3835.376,"end":3857.687,"text":"其實是司法院對不對以主管法令來講最高位階的法員是司法院但是事實上事實上他規範的執行單位事實上大部分是由法務部主管對不對所以這是在法令上面我們有這樣問題所以今天我們請這個司法院這個副秘書長來你雖然是主管"},{"start":3858.607,"end":3874.872,"text":"雖然說這個這個法令主管但是事實上對於這一些實際上的執行還是法務部比較清楚了你們這個應該是報告這個所以我就先請副部長你請回所以我接下來跟這個我們蔡部長來做幾個溝通剛才這個這個在質詢的過程中有關這個"},{"start":3882.555,"end":3901.244,"text":"記者進入特定區域部長,我們有關偵查不公開的部分剛才我們司法院副部長講得蠻清楚就是說我們最高位階法律刑事訴訟法接下來我們大概我看我們所有各單位我們相關的這些偵查單位或是偵查輔助單位"},{"start":3905.646,"end":3917.172,"text":"都這個的相關規定基本上就是我們所頒布的這個偵查不公開作業辦法對不對是不是就都是就是依據這個然後各單位再去制定他自己的執行要點"},{"start":3919.945,"end":3941.802,"text":"呃 主要法務部訂定了就是偵查不公開作為辦法嗎對 規範檢察官還有一些輔助的偵查機關不管是刑事做法或是我們剛剛所講的這些規範它事實上它有具體的具體規範的行為主體它有具體規範行為太陽的構成要件 對不對是這些行為主體跟構成要件裡面有沒有包括對於場地的限制"},{"start":3943.028,"end":3967.76,"text":"我們是希望在採訪的時候有限制的地方有沒有包括對於接觸對象的限制啦我說依法令依法令我們就依刑事訴訟法第245條或者依我們整部偵查不公開作業辦法事實上是沒有啦部長事實上我們這個規範他是規範他的行為主體就是偵查機關或者是或者是這個這個輔助偵查機關他的這些相關的這些這些人他的行為態樣就是"},{"start":3970.943,"end":3994.552,"text":"應執行職務而知稀釋事項不可以公開揭露給必要範圍以外的人跟我們說明一下就是說限制的是說他在偵辦的案件對這個案件針對他偵辦的案件而且他在職務中所知道的跟案件無關的不是偵查不公開的誰不可以跟誰談話誰不可以進入什麼區域你們在自己在報告裡面所列的這個所謂"},{"start":3996.953,"end":4011.502,"text":"你們有限制臺灣高檢署召開會議並發函明定劃定採訪區跟採訪機制區這個其實無關這個無關法令上面的構成要件嘛對不對這是你們高檢署的自律就是說"},{"start":4012.162,"end":4040.284,"text":"我為了避免瓜田李下為了避免相關的這些程序因此我做比法令更嚴格的限制我連區域我都有做這樣的限制對不對他事實上不是法律不屬於法令上面的限制嘛對不對對這個作業辦法裡面啊所以簡單講他是關於偵查公開或不公開他是某一種職業太陽跟某一種職業太陽的人他適不適合接觸的問題跟偵查不公開這個法定的要件是沒有關係的對不對"},{"start":4041.769,"end":4063.134,"text":"他要求的是說你在就個案採訪的時候要由發言人來對外說明所以沒有錯嗎 沒有錯嘛 是啊所以他事實上跟這個偵查不公開你記者限制只能在記者室或者是會議室這個規定跟偵查不公開它是一個跟法令的要件沒有關係嘛 對不對是 對"},{"start":4066.058,"end":4092.751,"text":"所以齁我想這個因為這個偵查不公開這個法律其實很簡單他就是刑事重罰245條但是他的接下來下面執行的你們各單位實在是非常的複雜你們自己有制定一個偵查不公開作為辦法那接下來呢我們這個法務部有一個法務部加強所屬檢查調查廉政機關遵守偵查不公開的原則實施方案"},{"start":4094.141,"end":4114.232,"text":"你們這個連政署自己又有法務部連政署辦理刑事案件落實偵查不公開的作業要點警政署又有警政署自己的這個每一個名稱都很長啦警政署又有警政署的警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則注意要點"},{"start":4115.85,"end":4138.979,"text":"各式各樣的規定那這些規定大概基本上都是依這個偵查不公開作業辦法來的所以我們來看這個偵查而偵查不公開作業辦法本身的規定其實也相當的繁複他有偵查不公開是大原則但是他有一些例外規定對不對是在我們的這個作業要點的第8條他就是一個例外規定他規定了這個"},{"start":4143.061,"end":4170.482,"text":"7種態樣是可以公開的在偵查偵查不公開是原則但是有7個例外這可以公開大概就是說為了公共維護公共利益的維護合法權益的保障所以你們大概列了什麼重大案件這個逃犯的通緝這個要求民眾的協助等等這樣子7種態樣是可以公開的但是在可以公開的裡面你們第8條又有對於可以公開這個本來已經是例外規定了你們又一個第8條說但是"},{"start":4171.343,"end":4198.654,"text":"如果你要公開的話你又有所限制在第8條裡面限制啦限制你這個這個少年犯罪嫌疑犯具體提供自首或自白啦有關這個申請這個又有限制原則規定例外的可以公開可以公開又有一些要件要排除排除之後又有例外他在這個裡面的第11款他就有說檢取人的這些相關啊這個"},{"start":4199.963,"end":4212.052,"text":"有特別說明必要的時候必須續明書面理由啊經機關首長核准啊以去識別化處理你們又有這些所以他是一個原則例外例外排除排除之後再限制"},{"start":4214.398,"end":4231.087,"text":"本身．確實有一點複雜本身就很複雜接下來你們讓各單位接下來你們就由偵查不公開你們就要求各單位要做這個必要的檢討、督導及改善所以在作業要點裡面第11條你們就直接要求說偵查機關或偵查輔助機關首長應該要指定機關有關人員3人至5人組成偵查不公開的檢討小組"},{"start":4240.319,"end":4260.621,"text":"另外你們又有這個第二款的部分又有偵查不公開的督導小組有檢討小組又有督導小組我在這邊請問部長齁這個第11條所規定的偵查機關及偵查輔助機關的機關首長要指定的這個檢討小組到什麼層級法務部自己本身有沒有"},{"start":4261.884,"end":4277.656,"text":"毫不我們在檢察司他是負責督導全國的相關檢察機關 那個真正就個案的檢討的話 不是就個案我是說就是每一個報導出來有沒有違反偵查不公開 第11條齁包括這督導小組偵查機關跟偵查輔助機關應他不是得喔 應應指定該機關有關人員3至5人組成偵查不公開檢討小組"},{"start":4291.397,"end":4295.605,"text":"除非當即沒有新聞就免召開這個規定在裡面要不然"},{"start":4296.892,"end":4323.116,"text":"你們這些機關依這個作業要點都要成立檢討小組都有成立?都有成立是要什麼層級?各...從你們...從法務部本身到各...到...最高檢也有高檢也有地檢也有調查局調查局也有政風市...欸...聯政署也有聯政署也有然後警察...警察機關...刑事警察局這個...我不曉得有沒有...應該也有吧請刑事警察局我們周...周...周...周警察"},{"start":4331.144,"end":4342.818,"text":"我們警察單位的這個所謂定期檢討小組我們到什麼層級?我們自己各縣的各縣市警察局到各分局嗎?"},{"start":4344.595,"end":4350.261,"text":"整個警政署的狀況呢?各縣市警察局都有類似的組織到各縣市警察局下面的分局有沒有?分局就是警察局"},{"start":4364.376,"end":4383.61,"text":"所以部長你們在這個要件裡面偵查機關及偵查輔助機關這個定義這個層級到底要到哪一個層級要成立檢討小組我們這個不是很清楚但這個沒有關係更重要的是剛剛其實黃委員剛剛有提到稍微提到了我們來檢視全台灣你們地檢署所公開的這個偵查不公開檢討跟查處辦法這個我列出這個表你這個"},{"start":4390.239,"end":4394.281,"text":"檢討件數公布總共檢討7311件最後處分人數7000多件的處分人數最後是15個人這個調查時間是從108年一直到112年12月各地檢數這我以各地檢數為例檢討了7000多件7000多件案件"},{"start":4417.574,"end":4420.198,"text":"你這個案件裡面成立的總共是367件367件案件裡面牽涉到懲處的才15個人15個人而已"},{"start":4429.755,"end":4458.269,"text":"部長這個是為什麼怎麼會有這種情況我説明一下檢討件數是各地他收集所有報道的內容也許他是各種方式的報道只要跟案件有關他就來然後裡面有可能涉及到不是可能他已經結案了就是說經過初步的會選篩選、臨選以後過濾以後才找出366件來檢討第二欄就是就是你們已經確定你們是未依偵查不公開作業辦法"},{"start":4459.659,"end":4464.267,"text":"而公開或揭露的案件就300多件367件367件每一件是不只一個人啊對不對367件案件在最後懲處的只有15個人"},{"start":4472.895,"end":4501.821,"text":"部長為什麼會這樣當然他每一個狀況不一樣各地他的報導或是說各地他的小組檢討以後但是確實有檢討啦如果要再加強或是要再部長我跟你講時間已經到了不佔時間啦但是我跟你講你們這樣的統計是有問題的啦因為事實上我們掌握我一向很不喜歡談個案但是我們談看到個案就已經他連司法判決都已經判決他應該要降級改序"},{"start":4503.087,"end":4518.561,"text":"在20212011年發生的這個臺南的調查員的慧選案件裡面已經他最後被司法判決違反偵查不公開被判決應該要降級改序結果看你們的統計最後你們統計被處分人數還是零這個請部長你回去聊就你們這種統計方式是有問題的你們這樣連已經確定我至少確定知道有一件你們統計的結果還是零"},{"start":4530.684,"end":4539.007,"text":"請部長你去了解一下你們現在所公布的這些相關的這些檢討報告好不好好我們再了解一下謝謝好謝謝好請回好我們接下來請謝榮介委員發言我請那個部長護秘書長"},{"start":4559.974,"end":4583.268,"text":"麻煩部長、副秘書長上台補充辛苦謝謝委員一張相片有人說很難解說偵查不公開檢察官為了要破案他也 譬如說 媒體民意代表吃兩塊在議會有在說什麼話他也請我去希望可以遞到一些線索"},{"start":4587.455,"end":4603.372,"text":"阿所以我去的時候 滾珠遍野嘛 我說要去 我就公公就說 你要問的我給你理解有的問題是這樣嘛 你要問我的消息 你也要繞一些消息給我有時候在赤道 這有一個灰色地帶啦"},{"start":4605.058,"end":4628.559,"text":"所以我們要靠機關跟這個審判的人主律、自律很重要自律很重要,我的機關也要給你看清楚,對不對有的人覺得這是機關的自律很重要,我請教我們現在的武器都行,應該要終身監禁"},{"start":4632.712,"end":4646.959,"text":"委員報告齁那無期徒刑法定刑當然是宣判刑但是實際上面會有那個假釋執行過一段時間就是法律的無期徒刑無期徒刑一定要過啊無期徒刑不是他的看法那是因為我們的法律所以無期徒刑不是一定要過無期徒刑"},{"start":4661.129,"end":4664.193,"text":"為什麼現在變成要給他一天25天後一天25天後我們給他報加息 加息的期間我請問你 他可以再反罪嗎"},{"start":4674.013,"end":4701.291,"text":"跟委員報告報告那如果說隔著時間還犯罪就可能會撤銷假釋嘛還繼續去執行去執行要關多久啊本來就是他的纏刑說二十幾天嘛但是最近那幾天我們大法官大法官有一個好解釋嘛就是說不能一直一直一直又執行25天啦要區分情形啦這是大法官最新的這個解釋"},{"start":4703.352,"end":4706.174,"text":"上禮拜五,大法官是大恐龍嗎?你不覺得你輸了,他發官去我們賣這個恐龍,跟他們都有關嗎?啊?憑什麼,你以為他還要再煩,煩什麼罪,還要看他幾天?是大法官在等的你?你不覺得他有錢沒問題,噴他在發官嗎?你不覺得這樣嗎?"},{"start":4733.441,"end":4739.707,"text":"跟委員報告 這樣啦齁 他說如果是判五宗 判四宗 反正還在管十宗啦 他再犯的罪啦 啊如果有機倒行勒 我問你 有機倒行 加息啦 判二十宗 管十宗加息處理 他如果再犯要管幾宗"},{"start":4757.756,"end":4766.639,"text":"應該是就出那個慘刑嘛是要放行 行的一份一二十八宗啦齁要關十四宗回去啦再還啦 要回來關幾宗如果放二十八宗 還已經執行十四宗已經執行十四宗 出那個 出那個當然是十幾宗嘛要回來關十四宗嘛 對不對啊無期徒刑啦 加息處理"},{"start":4787.26,"end":4788.601,"text":"還三人破四檔了還要回來關十檔了啊這個人有機奪行加速處理還傷害破七個月還要回來關十四檔了我說這樣有不對嗎"},{"start":4805.146,"end":4813.109,"text":"現在有期徒刑,並沒有處理到有期徒刑的部分,他也是說...為什麼...為什麼他...武器奪行這樣叫危險?如果這樣武器奪行加赤處理,這裡為什麼不危險?"},{"start":4827.793,"end":4829.633,"text":"這是大法跟委員報告這是大法官憲法的解釋權"},{"start":4858.168,"end":4862.278,"text":"他解釋前,如果這樣分析再修法律使用,就是立法社會勿論的跳起來啦"},{"start":4869.397,"end":4878.824,"text":"啊你白痴還在想一條立法委員想一條說無期徒刑都不能加薪啊沒加薪就沒危險的問題啊嘛,是不是這樣?現在所變要這樣嗎?因為那個事先不事先,不是我們司法行政能夠能夠解、能夠說明的啊就是這樣嘛,就是沒加薪就沒危險啦嘛,有加薪才有危險嘛但是我現在的立場是這樣啊,這樣看法啦對不對?"},{"start":4898.963,"end":4925.874,"text":"他還有去研究說無期徒刑啦齁他再犯多多少你可不可以知道不再犯你可能不知道我們司法院本身是沒同意的你不知道啊部長你可不可以理解這部份應該是你們的部份啦齁再犯多啦無期徒刑加席處理的再犯多多少你們台法官應該你本來就是要去調查去了解嘛啊再犯的人都花什麼錢"},{"start":4927.196,"end":4933.418,"text":"對不對啊你覺得為什麼反五黨議員要關十黨為什麼不是關九黨不是關十二黨不是關十三黨為什麼關十黨他說了算是這樣嗎"},{"start":4944.127,"end":4958.42,"text":"公園報告,因為大法官只是針對這個無期徒刑的部分,其他部分並不在這個解釋範圍我剛才在跟你說的,關於10年不是關於9年、10年、12年就是無期徒刑啊但是我國外國安說的啊為什麼是10年,不是8年、10年、9年、13年、12年"},{"start":4966.698,"end":4983.403,"text":"大法官是說那到底要怎麼去去的比例是要由那個相關的單位去...大法官說這樣啦齁兩年以內啦,好多年了他有說呢,兩年啊如果沒有你這個委員現在才所有都要放出來這樣他還要說兩年啊齁兩年來啊啊如果這樣要修緩啦齁修緩他你是不是要匯錢到"},{"start":4999.424,"end":5022.554,"text":"委員報告 因為這個刑法執行這部分可能是要法務部也依照這個大法官的這個當然啦 您就是要回另外行政院來嘛兩檔來嘛 是不是啦委員報告 這部分可能並沒有會嫌的問題吧 因為這個可能是誒 葡萄我們沒修法嗎"},{"start":5024.734,"end":5028.617,"text":"現在憲法法院 副秘書長你這樣說不對欸我們尊重這個尊重憲法法院他現在作為法官嘛 要修法我們就來抄你 抄你我們會再請教所有人的意見秘書長會來欸"},{"start":5050.063,"end":5053.947,"text":"那態度不公平 他們現在還站在那裡罵 對不對 兩天後 四九六八 他們都這樣很多都這樣 你地檢署要請人家 他們現在把你放下了 包括他們的家人 他們還要追人家 誰叫你們把他們按下來"},{"start":5073.599,"end":5099.862,"text":"補充我請教你現在剛才說判母機偷行,感謝有多少人我叫我們董林在查訪嘛感謝這些人就對了,他再犯都犯什麼罪嘛對不對?要理解嘛,不然總來你要怎麼想?對不對?你們這個託解就對了母機偷行,再犯去用撤銷的比率"},{"start":5101.533,"end":5128.839,"text":"這若無統計,大法官這樣說這樣尊順,我本色是不依偎然。那麼無機都行,他到底處理還在煩的都煩了什麼罪?有勤有動啦。不過這要有統計啊,不是都要講究科案。我可以說統計出來給委員,包括他個人...再來,就是說大法官在拜五這條你知道嘛,了解嘛。是。如果這樣你們想法的方向呢?"},{"start":5131.44,"end":5140.429,"text":"當然當初我們在憲法法院我們的主張是領維合憲的啦不應該這樣做啦他就跟你講維生啦你聽到嗎所以你說我領維對阿但是他要破壞是這樣嘛沒有啦他這樣分移才可以不講話勒"},{"start":5153.451,"end":5159.373,"text":"齁 你要乖乖的 行 行法 行道 日本人也沒頂 阿台灣我自己頂沒啦 叫我檢討 阿來頂啦 齁 阿 當然 什麼 叫你檢討 阿來頂 也要兩年來 給我們 沒咧 要很清楚咧"},{"start":5171.84,"end":5179.526,"text":"五年以下幾十年呢?五年以下幾十年呢?幾年都講得很清楚呢?但我講的是什麼呢?你不覺得很難看?你有感覺被人嚇到嗎?嚇到就對了啦!不要說那麼嚇人啦!當然我們有表達我們的立場嘛!我們的看法嘛!啊採不採納當然最好的決定是我們尊重嘛!我真的要跟你請教說你對私刑、執行的立場啦!就是說"},{"start":5202.125,"end":5207.872,"text":"施行的規定是在刑法本來就是刑法的主觀機關如果因為施行而違憲這樣違什麼規定長時間幾十年都沒有修法"},{"start":5220.074,"end":5232.058,"text":"所以法務部的立場就是說 法律規定要判施行 啊 決定了要進行 我們就照法律的規定來做嘛啊你認為施行是違憲 還是合憲啊但是我們現在的立場就是 違法進行嘛所以你認為他是合憲的嘛 他沒有違憲你不可以去執行 啊如果這樣四月二三"},{"start":5244.946,"end":5261.694,"text":"辯論的時候,我剛剛跟你請教說,你要派什麼人去,那個人知道你要派去參與辯論這個人,他知道,本身的人知道代表機關的當然我知道,是我們機關我們派他知道,董事你也知道,要去的人也知道去的人當然也知道,這是我們的...他知道就對了,這樣你們才會...他捍衛你們的立場當然我們要表達我們的立場,跟我們的看法"},{"start":5274.195,"end":5299.733,"text":"合憲的看法,合憲的立場?對,對不然你今天是大家都在看?是啊所以你是反被匯度施行?這是未來怎麼樣?現在啦,現在啦現在我當然照法律的規定啊我們要再執行一下?要不然那要看這個每個案件,他的救濟程序你說他都要救濟啊,你們說他就救濟就不用執行法律上還要有,當然要跟他執行就執行嘛"},{"start":5303.226,"end":5305.227,"text":"好 謝謝請回那我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":5343.239,"end":5368.051,"text":"謝謝召委,有請我們法務部蔡部長還有我們內政部警政署,行政局局長有來請蔡部長、州局長請連政署署長好,署長請上台司法院副秘書長請上來一下好不好部長還有我們列席的所有的官員,大家早"},{"start":5369.892,"end":5397.857,"text":"那個召委我給你建議啦齁 領主啊 那個謝榮傑在接訊齁 那個本郎仙 布袋依依 咱的官員 大家揭一聲 讓人家聾 這樣會出名 你知不知道齁 今天談這個 偵查不公開齁 本席倒這樣認為啦 沒有去談個案的話齁 不對 我們只知道講一下原理原則齁 實在意義沒大啦 這個本來 哪一些到底要公開 哪一些到底不公開"},{"start":5399.429,"end":5427.278,"text":"這個常常因為個案裡面在發生社會有沒有去矚目會有產生一些爭議存在那我一直認為我們我相信你們大家全部都是這麼多都是法律人這個偵查不公開這個原則我相信這個法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的一個幾個字但是偵查不公開我們常常講的主體不中立議就差不多"},{"start":5428.587,"end":5441.825,"text":"什麼人要收到這個約束?就是辦案的領完嘛!只說辦案領完而已嘛!行政部門誰應該沒有嘛!他如果接觸到這個案件的內容,行政同仁當然也要遵守啦!"},{"start":5443.064,"end":5463.016,"text":"行政部門我是說行政機關不是偵查機關行政機關也有可能我們偵查機關去問他意見他會接觸到案件的內容這也是要受到約束這個部分就要受到約束那我今天必須要提出來就是說我們一直在談這個整個偵查不公開那最主要為什麼要這樣規定大家都知道說一個案件發生之後"},{"start":5469.622,"end":5484.459,"text":"無罪推定嘛有些人在申辦當中會不會起訴都不知道可是呢因為社會矚目啊尤其是重大案件啊經常新聞就開始一直炒起來炒起來之後你再看你做了什麼在場如果有人是當被告的時候到最後搞不好連起訴都不起訴啊"},{"start":5488.629,"end":5498.915,"text":"可是呢,在這個過程裡面,這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害啊所以呢,我們定定的,我看那個警政署、刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦、督察小組啦、法務部部長也有啦,都很多小組啊可是呢,這個談了幾十年啦,我覺得這不該啦,太複雜啦"},{"start":5510.688,"end":5511.369,"text":"常常是到最後媒體主幕或媒體記者來討論"},{"start":5522.362,"end":5534.227,"text":"有時候你高興有時候你買發布新聞人久了以後稍微都會去講一下但是什麼情況之下要去公開什麼情況之下不能去公開這個就很難去做那樣所以我看每一年都在一直在爭討討論這樣的一個事情"},{"start":5547.077,"end":5563.143,"text":"我們也知道說偵查當中我們為了說不讓這整個偵查發生障礙尤其是讓共犯去串證逃亡或是淹沒證據所以我們都希望說偵查機關我如果偵查機關我希望這樣來進行不要受到干擾可是在這個無罪推定底下有時候常常我們經過媒體這樣的一個披露尤其社會上矚目的案件就會受到質疑跟批評我舉"},{"start":5576.294,"end":5583.859,"text":"最近的一個案子啦你說新竹縣長楊文科這個被控涉探這個案件啊為什麼社會這樣會去矚目你週刊一個報導之後社會哗然說 喔 怎麼會這樣你站在當事人的立場來看的話對他來講的話確實啊還在偵辦當中啊那你整個新聞去做一個披露甚至被認為是一個獨家報導我如果其他的站不上的媒體喔我就跟他說你這個違反偵查不公開啦那大家媒體都知道喔他搞不好又不談論這個問題啦"},{"start":5606.638,"end":5620.892,"text":"所以這個你怎麼樣去拿捏有時候在放消息或者說涉及到公共利益適度讓去國人有資的權利這個拿捏有時候你去讀後我看常常我們最受詬病的就是放獨家"},{"start":5624.614,"end":5632.602,"text":"這個最麻煩有時候案件在偵查當中差不多我看事後披露出來好像變實況轉播起來所以我不知道補充還是周局長你們這邊的看法是怎麼樣我是認為這個部分確實要檢討"},{"start":5640.856,"end":5658.189,"text":"是 謝謝委員的指教這確實是很困難雖然法律明文的規定很清楚但是要執行的時候總是會有一些大家的見解不同我看你公布的西部規定就那麼多有時候這個其實就是一個文化有時候常常變成一個文化"},{"start":5667.284,"end":5679.79,"text":"每天想要補啊每天要擔小心啊適度去讓他知道不是一件壞事啊可是又涉及到這個無罪推定啊很怕真的是到最後如果是人家連起訴都不起訴的話整個民生全部都毀掉啊"},{"start":5681.042,"end":5695.675,"text":"我是覺得這個真的要去慎重尤其是這個放毒家常常到最後如果是無罪到最後連起訴都不起訴或者是到進入院方以後被判一個無罪判決確定以後這對董事員的傷害太大所以我要講的是說這個不管是警察機關或者我們司法機關這個放毒家這個心態真的要改變你要不然你就給大家這個媒體10天在這裡你都給他"},{"start":5710.353,"end":5725.843,"text":"你要適度的公開你就針對這些人全部去公開你只要放獨家的心態我從我二三十年前開始當律師我都覺得這種放獨家的心態對當事人有時候事後造成"},{"start":5727.298,"end":5752.068,"text":"不可挽救的一個傷害,你不來看法如何?是,我同意委員的看法,因為我們這個辦案人員真的是要嚴守我們現在的規定本來其實說很簡單的,只是說偵查不公開這幾年而已也不然我們再頂一關相關的行政規定,比較嚴謹讓大家有一個遵守的方法跟原則嘛所以大家看到現在規定越來越複雜了嘛"},{"start":5754.309,"end":5757.57,"text":"有時候基層人員很麻煩我有時候會為我們警察人員講幾句話你像譬如說同樣的案件我們在講說偵查不公開在上手銬就好了如果是一個十大惡極的十惡不赦的你給他上手銬社會都不會公安"},{"start":5781.977,"end":5784.619,"text":"都不會說怎樣社工這傢伙都會說怎樣我也覺得很麻煩所以這個標準到底是要怎樣我倒不認為說那個上首靠那個是違反偵查不公開啦我倒會覺得說那樣的一個執行的方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題啦可是這個比例原則又要放在哪是不是要一體適用"},{"start":5807.347,"end":5811.15,"text":"相關要一體適用可是如果所犯的罪行又不同麻煩了今天如果開場的怕死人的你給他上手銬你再給他戴一個護具整個面罩給他用的民眾就怕死人來趕走"},{"start":5825.956,"end":5830.457,"text":"一看就害怕死人了你又幹嘛保護他的名譽講法又不同了所以確實是很麻煩但是我們也一直在精進那我倒是接下來要去追問的就是說你像譬如說在2009年我們那個中華職棒打假球案的時候這個現在叫你都辦得對那個時候有很多球星"},{"start":5850.922,"end":5868.255,"text":"因為這個打假球誤入歧途離開這個球場結束他整個職業的一個生涯但是當時在偵查期間我記得很清楚一個叫陳鋒敏那個球員我看周局長你可能會知道他並沒有打假球可是因為他的資訊被公開以後你說要每天報到"},{"start":5869.602,"end":5890.895,"text":"那很多人他的球迷就對他懷疑、批評、指責到最後法院判決還他清白可是呢民意也受損還在當打之年他就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯這些都是法律沒有辦法去還給他的人"},{"start":5894.977,"end":5907.742,"text":"所以我都要求我們的同仁一定要非常的謹慎那你要處理新聞我們可以用一個公開在特定的場所那就哪一部分可以來說明的"},{"start":5908.642,"end":5923.66,"text":"可以公開的說明,不要獨厚某一家這是一個原則啦所以我們常常也辦告邀的研討會告邀我們的辦案人員希望能夠遵守規定在處理上要非常的謹慎"},{"start":5924.941,"end":5944.346,"text":"不能給的就每一家都不要給啦!能給的你每一家都去給的話,大家都又看不為公了。這個本來就是社會大權我知的權利嘛,維護了整個公共利益嘛,這都總有可能的嘛。你們揭示了那麼多一個原則裡面,有它的一個必要性,可是給獨家這個就很怪啦!"},{"start":5946.747,"end":5948.508,"text":"法警、書記官、辯護人、辯護人去訪比較不可能嗎?也是有可能啊其實我討論問問你們"},{"start":5975.745,"end":5977.206,"text":"改進啦 這個真的是要改進啦 我的意思就是說偵查不公開這個部分"},{"start":5996.9,"end":6017.956,"text":"所有的司法人員應該都知道啦那只是說為了讓社會大眾適度的有值得一個權利或者整個公眾利益的這個大家也知道是可以的但是如果可以不可能只有一家可以其他不可以這個不好我是覺得這個要不好這個到最後都會產生很多的一個紛爭出來啦那剛剛你提到的部分就是說檢察官"},{"start":6021.002,"end":6047.128,"text":"甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年喔前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬住民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些喔這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去"},{"start":6049.088,"end":6066.469,"text":"那國人也都很想知道說到底從哪裡出去所以臺灣人權促進會議去年3月就依照政府資訊公開法向內政部去申請能夠公開就是說到底什麼人持有這些附證資料的機關是有哪一些在節目也說偵查不公開欸?這樣對不對?這樣會違反?我這個這樣很具體啊"},{"start":6071.077,"end":6091.402,"text":"當然偵查當中我們有需要去瞭解說這個人的個資我們會行文或是說我們有一個特別的管道去瞭解都是依法的那如果在偵查當中這些資料是不應該對外洩漏的但是內政部就不是偵查主體這時候呢"},{"start":6094.954,"end":6110.424,"text":"所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開"},{"start":6111.687,"end":6132.003,"text":"不要說他自己內部要去調查啦這個是各自的洩漏本來就是他行政上有那個證人嘛應該要去了解什麼洩漏方法我最後再來追問啦稍微抱歉幾分鐘就好就是說新市警察局州局長部長先請回一下我們在2021年11月跟騷把那個跟騷"},{"start":6133.544,"end":6151.269,"text":"防治法三讀通過．並在隔年的6月施行就是說將根梢行為明確去做一個入罪．並導入了一個叫書面告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線副秘書長請回一下那當被害人報案以後警政機關你會開立書面告誡給行為人明確告知已經違法"},{"start":6151.989,"end":6158.756,"text":"如果兩年內再犯的話 被害人可以向法院民事申請保護令再違反保護令的話 會面臨刑責現在問題來了我看根沙法實行到現在快兩年的時間本席看了從111年6月到今年1月底一共受理的4944件"},{"start":6171.73,"end":6172.07,"text":"但是我舉個例子"},{"start":6192.509,"end":6196.07,"text":"鼓勵韓國的直播媒臺灣全程直播在環島黑衣人去跟蹤、尾隨、未有粉絲去報警、把他帶回家最後跟騷法規定書面告誡但是呢"},{"start":6208.069,"end":6229.357,"text":"我們的書面告誡依然保令依然是在跟他說警方已經介入了,跟行為人說你違法的事實當時在整個根沙發整個立法過程裡面,我們就有很多討論了我以這個例子來看,當他環島差不多半個月甚至一個月左右,假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後,又再犯"},{"start":6231.567,"end":6239.457,"text":"啊 申請保護令以後 核發時間一段時間啊就這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的一個安全"},{"start":6241.645,"end":6261.497,"text":"報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面他能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達"},{"start":6262.518,"end":6273.508,"text":"一半 超過一半這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的這段時間裡面 要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦 未雨綢繆啦"},{"start":6277.967,"end":6304.975,"text":"所以我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔3年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方"},{"start":6305.635,"end":6312.346,"text":"好好規劃好不好局長OK好謝謝委員好謝謝那請回好接下來我們請羅志強委員"},{"start":6331.488,"end":6342.517,"text":"主席 有請部長還有司法部長蔡部長、副秘書長請上台委員好"},{"start":6343.86,"end":6363.981,"text":"想請教部長為什麼我們要有偵查不公開是為了要貫徹地碼保障被告受審判的權利並且避免輿論未審先判嗎對不對這是其中之一當然也要保證未來的偵查能夠更順暢"},{"start":6365.242,"end":6366.263,"text":"那可能涉及到洩密的問題"},{"start":6387.708,"end":6389.089,"text":"那我想請教一下到目前為止"},{"start":6413.18,"end":6440.001,"text":"我們法務部我們在我看報告當中有講說每年度7月1日針對我們的偵查不公開的一個檢討情形要來去揭露那到目前為止我們就以去年為例好了請問偵查不公開你們檢討多少件數討論件數多少為依偵查不公開作業辦法公開或揭露之件數及查辦件數來處分人數"},{"start":6442.059,"end":6469.198,"text":"每半年要公布一次的我現在是112年的下半年我們總共檢討了1672件那請問多少件大概可有違反之餘的有94件那查辦了有50件那結果如何現在還沒有出來結果如何沒有出來啊一年啊不是半年半年是到12月底我講的是我講的是那從我們從開始"},{"start":6471.516,"end":6497.062,"text":"檢討偵查不公開我剛剛看我們審判會委員講啊7000件367件成立15個人那他是從108年啊好 那我就從108年開始算好 那我委員需要資料我會再提供那我想請問那處分15人是什麼身份就是偵查不公開還是警察都有都有 多少檢察官"},{"start":6498.276,"end":6527.265,"text":"呃 我現在手邊沒有資料 我們了解以後跟委員說明我要特別講 就今天您的報告當中齁您的檢討裡面也完全沒有附加任何的數字上來那問到所有東西你都是要回去提供給我我也希望你那我再想請教你下一個問題喔剛剛我們已經談論到了今天違反偵查不公開是有刑事責任的對不對有可能啦 要看整個案情的如何這次有出去嗎 出去對不對"},{"start":6530.911,"end":6550.208,"text":"我想請教您到現在為止照省委員講7000件的討論367件的成立我想請問您最後我們臺北地檢署我們的檢察官、檢察機關起訴案件有多少按照所謂的刑法132條"},{"start":6552.458,"end":6580.478,"text":"起訴案件多少我要來瞭解看看瞭解多少能不能請我們的這個我覺得法務部部長你應該要瞭解吧如果你檢察官有人因此被起訴你總會知道吧當然因為各地每一個他的數字不同嘛我們還要經過統計我直接告訴部長啦你們現在所有行政懲處基本上積極警告積極申戒你覺得真的有約束力嗎"},{"start":6582.421,"end":6609.591,"text":"還是有啊有約束力道德約束力啦不會啦道德約束力我們常常也辦教育嘛一定把一些狀況也要剛剛您在那個備詢當中你剛剛這個我看到我們前面的莊委員在質詢你說你就說欸這個很多這個媒體報導可能這個媒體很厲害也不能怪也不能怪不一定是檢察官啦我分享一個個人的親身經歷我也曾經被檢察官傳訊過"},{"start":6611.365,"end":6639.662,"text":"我還記得傳訊以後檢察官最後結束的時候告訴我說羅先生請你出去不要對外來去說任何有關案情的事情我說好沒問題可是不到一個禮拜我在接受詢問的內容全部周刊全部寫出來了我想請問一下我們的部長是我告訴媒體的嗎去告訴一些對我可能不利的一些消息面"},{"start":6640.805,"end":6666.977,"text":"是我告訴媒體的嗎我相信委員應該不會嘛那我只有跟檢察官講啊檢察官也有可能旁邊還有其他人那就是問題來了今天我直接告訴大家偵查不公開所有的規定跟所有的罰則簡直形同劇文嘛我們再講一個具體的例子齁你總知道馬總統的那個被起訴的案件嘛 對不對"},{"start":6669.281,"end":6683.931,"text":"我想請問你 你知道這個偵查不公開 如果反映在個案上 監察院曾經對於這個北檢偵辦馬英九三中案提出所謂的調查報告2019年12月18號 有看過這個報告嗎我告訴你報告的內容 我來跟你講我們偵查不公開出了什麼問題"},{"start":6692.725,"end":6710.551,"text":"他認為媒體大幅報導公開照片相關錄音帶等等都已經違反了刑事訴訟法245條偵查不公開的規定嚴重侵犯人權你覺得監察院的調查報告對於我們今天檢察機關這樣的指責你覺得是對的嗎"},{"start":6715.549,"end":6735.149,"text":"檢察院當然有他的職責、他的角度、看法然後我再跟你講調查報告講當時馬英九告發北檢檢察長邢太昭跟主任檢察官王興建涉洩密後然後北檢就是傳訊、新新聞、自由時報、淨州刊三位撰文記者"},{"start":6735.689,"end":6763.744,"text":"他們都稱檢查的主任檢察官、三中案懲辦檢察官都沒有對其透露偵查中的資料然後調閱通聯記錄．也沒有發現所謂跟馬英九跟多名被告相關人事聯繫就此就認定說檢方沒有洩密就牽結了就這樣就認定了調查報告也認為說你這樣做法實質上即使本來就不會告訴你他的消息來源你問他不會告訴你"},{"start":6765.27,"end":6789.518,"text":"可是就據已就是把它牽結了那我想請問你真的有保障所謂的被告的所謂的偵查不公開的無罪推定的這樣的一個法益嗎有保障嗎就是落實執行的程度如何啦我跟部長說事實上你可以從所有的重大案件包括從楊文科也好 對不對"},{"start":6790.839,"end":6818.94,"text":"非常厲害啊今天梁恩科的案情是誰把他全部揭露的是你們法務部召開記者會公告天下的嗎是嗎不是啊不是啊這是誰報導的啊據悉名義的報導那個是陳辦的檢察署他因為外界的質疑或是外界要了解他做適度的說明嘛他做適度的說明請問他是不是在因為媒體報導之後他才出來說明"},{"start":6821.553,"end":6839.36,"text":"是不是有可能媒體去詢問嘛媒體去詢問你就可以說明了就可以開始去帶風向了嗎是這個意思嗎那偵查不公開到底是規範什麼的啊我再講下一個例子啦我講就是今天偵查不公開規範的那個客體是誰規範對象是誰"},{"start":6841.724,"end":6869.511,"text":"就是辦案的人員嘛辦案的人員嘛 對不對那我想請教你臺權會問這個內政部2300萬的我們的全臺灣人民的資料被洩漏結果內政部一推256你知道他的藉口是什麼嗎他不肯交代所有不肯做政府公開透明的訊息他理由藉口是什麼是什麼你知道嗎因為很多機關都是用這個理由啦對啊那我就想請教你"},{"start":6871.502,"end":6893.042,"text":"法務部有沒有要求內政部必須用偵查不公開做理由來不公開他該公開的資訊有沒有是啊 很多案子也是都沒有經過懲辦單位有告訴他你不能公開才不公開他們自己就不想公開就說這個是偵查不公開我覺得非常好我覺得部長今天這個反應我覺得非常好"},{"start":6893.885,"end":6919.674,"text":"今天偵查不公開實際上某種程度已經變成行政機關遮掩政府透明資訊甚至敷衍立法院該有的所謂監督的一個藉口了那將來遇到行政機關講偵查不公開我覺得真的就直接來問法務部的意見了偵查不公開可不可以作為說今天隱匿政府重要資訊的一個藉口跟理由就讓法務部來判斷你覺得如何呢"},{"start":6920.816,"end":6944.43,"text":"我們的立場是對於偵查刑事案件的內容在偵查當中的時候是不能對外的辦案人員不能對外但是今天我就問行政機關對於立法院的監督對於社會大眾要求的一些公開透明的資料就拿台權會執意的這案子來看的話你從哪邊基礎資料基礎資訊難道政府沒有公開的義務嗎不過如果"},{"start":6948.269,"end":6960.983,"text":"行政機關是接受辦案單位去詢問說這部分怎麼樣怎麼樣的情節請他提供資料他也許會認為是因為檢察機關來問或是司法檢察機關來問你剛剛都講過偵查不公開規範的是辦案人員"},{"start":6968.34,"end":6991.105,"text":"行事訴訟法規定辦案人員作業辦法是法律嗎當然在法律之下你應該起碼如果你今天要規範到說行政院行政官員都要偵查不公開的話你就寫到法律裡面去啊不是嗎如果牽涉到刑事案件的偵查當然他也有不公開的責任我要特別講的是什麼"},{"start":6992.423,"end":6998.458,"text":"今天很多的案件現在的行政官員就是一去偵查不公開就全部推給法務部啦推給檢查機關啦"},{"start":7000.083,"end":7024.54,"text":"要看案情的內容如果跟涉及到偵查犯罪當然是不能所以我再問你一句話我們在2022年5月9號秦泰昭上任交接典禮的時候他突然說山中案在高等法院審理當中若干人士希望藉由各種途徑來影響二審判決我想請問你秦泰昭檢查總長適合談論個案嗎"},{"start":7031.003,"end":7048.2,"text":"那看有沒有符合我們偵查不公開的作業辦法我要特別講今天整個法制上偵查不公開不管從你處分人數今天有沒有按照刑法所謂的起訴的人數包括你處分的輕重根本就形同劇文"},{"start":7049.261,"end":7068.191,"text":"然後所有的案件到最後就是今天檢查機關你高興要洩漏給媒體獨家報的都出來了然後就跟大家講說媒體很厲害因為沒有懲罰也沒有約制啦那這一點我也希望我們將來也是司法法制委員會要來討論這件事情偵查不公開到底範圍跟界限跟保障的密度跟強度"},{"start":7069.312,"end":7079.22,"text":"不能變成是今天我今天檢查機關我愛公開就公開就獨家了我不愛公開就變成讓政府單位來規避今天監督的一個藉口以上 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":7095.237,"end":7107.243,"text":"主席、在黨委員、先進、列協的政府機關所長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請﹐等等﹐螢幕還沒出來﹐等一下﹐等一下螢幕"},{"start":7131.155,"end":7149.977,"text":"好 那有請司法院黃副秘書長及法務部蔡部長和刑事警察局周局長周局長麻煩請上台副秘書長、部長好 還有局長好來 現在請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":7152.37,"end":7171.881,"text":"請問一下偵查不公開的法律依據為何?好像報告當中只有你們有寫是,對,那個刑事處罰245條好,那麼依據此我們還有一個不公開的作業辦法對不對?作業辦法是司法院跟行政院會嫌發布是的,這是院部會嫌發布的那麼請問一下這些哪些事項不得公開?"},{"start":7174.434,"end":7197.684,"text":"根文報告包含說他是偵查程序跟偵查內容跟所得的這個新證那哪些人不能公開?哪些人不能公開?剛剛很多委員都問哪些人必須遵守?當然檢察官、檢察書官還有那個司法警察還有那個辯護人高屍代表人包括司法警察、司法警察官、檢察官、辯護人那而且在作為判決第9條當中自白、證據、卷宗、偵查方式、程序"},{"start":7198.942,"end":7224.684,"text":"企劃甚至設計隱私都不可以公開對不對是好那這些人要遵守那請問一下什麼時候有例外什麼時候可以公開那跟委員報告在那個作業辦法的那個第8條很好把你列出來了對對對那已經那個書面上面有列主要都是主要就是要例外可以公開的就是國家安全社會治安或者偵辦犯罪提醒大眾防範或者是請求社會大眾協助調查證據或者是通緝的人"},{"start":7227.366,"end":7229.849,"text":"請問一下在不久之前一個驚嚇水域的快艇翻覆案那這個似乎他的航跡圖是符合哪一項必須公開的"},{"start":7245.36,"end":7273.305,"text":"因為這也是涉及到整個國家安全社會治安還有大家所矚目所以有一些疑問那可以適度的來對外說明那誰來判斷是由偵辦中的檢調司法檢察官檢察官還是由誰來認定說這個是符合什麼什麼因為你們定了標準誰來認定由檢察官跟其他司法檢察當然的等人員很清楚了"},{"start":7274.025,"end":7284.872,"text":"司法偵辦的主體他可以根據這個得例外公開的項目來判斷是否符合對不對是所以如果說檢察官認為說這個沒有到達那個情況他就可以不公開是不是這樣子"},{"start":7285.775,"end":7303.165,"text":"他會按照整個案情或是外界的一些質疑的需要澄清說明的但是部長顯然這樣的答覆在前不久之前立法院有在野黨委員不滿意他就說他要調閱那請問一下副秘書長立法院調閱權的依據跟範圍是"},{"start":7307.231,"end":7315.46,"text":"立法院可以調閱嗎?有沒有大法官的解釋?4-729那他規定什麼?在偵查中的案件要遵守偵查密碼但什麼時候可以調閱?"},{"start":7326.212,"end":7347.749,"text":"如果沒有涉及到這些偵查秘密偵查中就不得公開偵查終結特定一案有重大職務相關立法院會的行駛職權才能公開部長你同意嗎那所以以剛剛那個案子來講其實如果立法院要行駛調閱權必須等到他偵查完畢然後我們根據我們立法院委員會諮詢行駛需要那麼國會這樣就可以調查偵查中的案件證嗎國會可以調查偵查中的證證嗎"},{"start":7353.709,"end":7375.902,"text":"檢察官要公開示意為是,他可以判斷哪些符合重大社會公義,但是國會要調閱,這個是誰可以來決定,偵查中是不是就不得調閱?那依照那個大法官偵查中的案件的話,這個是調查是要受限是受限的,好,那這很清楚了嘛,司法院副秘書長都講了,那我來問一下部長"},{"start":7376.883,"end":7397.818,"text":"那麼假設啦以剛剛那個案例來講同一個證據目前司法官、司法警察官或者說檢察官在進行偵辦當中結果呢民意機關要調閱這個A機關的B公文是重要證據那民意要調閱B公文會不會影響到偵查如果影響到偵查的話就不應該來對外"},{"start":7402.34,"end":7423.786,"text":"剛剛講到了偵查中是否可以調閱的那如果調閱的話如果這個證據正在進行偵辦中在使用這樣的調閱會不會影響偵查那由檢察官來判斷還是由檢察官判斷嘛所以法務部一向認為有關這個題目檢察官判斷很重要好 那繼續往下問那請問一下如果國會在行使文件調閱權調不到文件那我乾脆找"},{"start":7424.446,"end":7440.86,"text":"在看文件的人我叫檢察官來我叫部長來因為部長看過請問我沒有看過我不會看到的假設嘛假設有些事情在偵辦中的案件有些公務機關有看過但因為偵辦中了嘛檢察官偵辦了嘛公務機關不提供嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":7441.661,"end":7470.504,"text":"那不提供那至少我調你們的長官來問目前有在野黨主張要辦理國會聽證權在其他的國家國會聽證權的五個行使到辦到台灣來請問如果按照這個例子如果你的文件我不能調看過文件的人我調來問可以嗎基本上應該不可以的因為我們要尊重檢察官獨立行使職權檢察官如果認為這個是影響到他後續的偵查那如果他不講他說他可不可以實施檢討權"},{"start":7472.858,"end":7473.518,"text":"來 如果被告質詢原告"},{"start":7501.676,"end":7524.193,"text":"那麼要迴避嗎有些司法案件如果說民意代表本身為本案的被告就偵查不公開議題來諮詢檢調司法機關您覺得有沒有迴避的必要我想我們的辦案的檢調他會遵守規定那是誰該迴避是民意代表要迴避還是被傳喚、被邀請來國會做聽證或被質詢的人要迴避"},{"start":7528.086,"end":7556.445,"text":"我想大家都要遵守這個原則不管是當事人或是辦案人員大家都在心中有一把尺所以我之前對於目前國會在行使諮詢權的同時我們要很謹慎的去注意到如果這些事情未來可能發展到行使案件千萬千萬不要被告辯法官好 那所以我們就來看現在有一個笑話就是在一個八尺門的辯護人三位有沒有看過這部電視劇"},{"start":7558.606,"end":7581.627,"text":"有沒有聽過有啦齁在這個電視劇當中呢有一個很有名的對白齁他有一次開庭被告遲到法官就提議說來說笑話比賽檢察官跟律師同意法官就說這個笑話叫做什麼無罪推定這當然是一個諷刺啦檢察官也說偵查不公開是個笑話律師也說律師倫理是個笑話這是從電視影集裡面拿出來的部長你可以認同這樣對現實的諷刺嗎"},{"start":7584.095,"end":7602.24,"text":"如果就檢察官的部分我們是要嚴守啦很好就不能把他當作笑話好我們來看一下但現實上呢我請亞部長跟署長來署長齁還記得一個案件嗎有一個很無辜的人啊他說欸現場留6個蛋殼喔這個這個案子大家記憶深刻對不對"},{"start":7603.18,"end":7629.357,"text":"有沒有 結果呢 後來呢 就暴露了這個可能是嫌疑犯然後呢 這個人呢 就說沒想到一早醒來呢 被全國通緝署長 呃 署長有沒有 署長有沒有記得這個案子報告知道這是個烏龍事件你們要查查一個重大的刑案結果呢 不小心 變成一個個人的隱私泄露了部長 你覺得這個事情算不算有違反偵查不公開 造成當事人隱私受損的情況"},{"start":7630.458,"end":7654.257,"text":"如果是在辦案的內容那會影響到偵查那就需要檢討局長你認為這個案子有沒有因為偵查中不慎的資訊外洩造成無辜當事人的隱私跟個人權益受損這個應該是有但是問題是這個案子本來是在我們內部群組裡面在討論的一個對象並沒有對外公佈但是記者不知道怎麼拿到這個但我們要檢討你們要來囉內部討論被記者公佈你們先檢討記者怎麼拿到的不去檢討是誰洩露出去的"},{"start":7660.302,"end":7686.135,"text":"你們看到這樣的態度嗎?這個我們會,我們自己本身也會檢討好,剛剛的其實還有委員問到了齁就是有一個案子齁,欸這個某個案子齁,某個縣長的案子那麼你們證人的對話,你們證人的對話說,這場搞定了,餐券都用光了有沒有這樣的事件發生?有沒有這樣的事例發生?局長有沒有?不曉得,那法務部檢署有沒有這樣講的那個案子吧?剛剛羅委員解釋的那個案子,這樣有沒有違反偵查不公開?"},{"start":7687.332,"end":7708.118,"text":"如果是辦案人員把這種內容對外公布的話當然我們要檢討那如果人有不是你們辦案人員人家有辦法不當取得那你覺得是責任是誰的都有責任啊都有責任很好來我跟你講齁剛剛呢黃國昌委員問了一個黃總要說一個我很同意記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室嗎"},{"start":7710.448,"end":7738.482,"text":"他如果用來賓的身份或是用其他的經過登記那舉他進去沒有說不可以啦局長請你告訴部長你們為了落實偵查不公開的辦法你們訂定了一個警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開的注意要點包括什麼包括不得代媒體辦案不得洩露現場模擬不得讓嫌疑犯接受拍攝還要設當適當封鎖區案中要 卷中要保密等等等當事人要掩蔽"},{"start":7739.562,"end":7755.622,"text":"部長 你有沒有看過他們警政署訂的這個辦法我知道他們有訂辦法阿你們是有訂辦法 有沒有我們也有訂阿你們辦法說什麼 要設發驗人對不對是要劃設禁制區對不對是那如果要求說檢察官的辦公室列入禁制區 你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":7757.753,"end":7770.769,"text":"當然如果他就採訪這樣的行為的時候要受到限制那如果不是採訪是其他的因素來賓來拜訪那我們當然按照規定來做嘛部長你要甚思啊"},{"start":7772.116,"end":7792.256,"text":"今天檢察官他的桌上有很多帶偵辦中的案子今天有媒體的朋友來拜訪他你覺得檢察官的辦公室不應該把他列為一個為了避免不小心內容外洩應該列為禁制區嗎是 我們有列為禁制區啊檢察官的辦公室是禁制區檢察官的辦公室是禁制區記者可以進去"},{"start":7794.117,"end":7819.665,"text":"記者他如果有經過登記或是說有通知所以請你們好好檢討我們看最後一個就是這也是一個實證例子啦媽媽嘴案無辜的咖啡店老闆被指控殺人生意全毀了那麼我覺得這個今天我們要落實偵查不公開要從實務上來檢討那個規範有沒有需要調整的地方所以請法務部跟警政署因為警政署沒有來我就請到法務部可不可以盤點過去一年內有違反偵查不公開的案例"},{"start":7820.305,"end":7847.164,"text":"可不可以你們盤點一下整理一下到底是哪些樣態如果這些樣態有很具體的可以指向比如說可能媒體呢藉由訪客的身份從檢察官辦公室不小心看到如果有這種情況那你們就要慎重的考慮你們的這個偵查不公開相關的場域的保密辦法可以嗎可以先再整好過去一年對不對偵查違反這個案例把它盤點一下好嗎好然後呢三個月提出改進辦法"},{"start":7848.308,"end":7852.171,"text":"待會我們在吳思耀委員詢答完畢之後我們休息5分鐘那接下來我們請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":7885.862,"end":7909.739,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們今天各位列席的我們首長還有我們立委同仁媒體先進大家早安那請主席我們先邀請我們部長好麻煩蔡部長請上台部長好那我想請教一下那個針對剛剛我們"},{"start":7912.082,"end":7938.823,"text":"許多這個立委同仁也有在關心的我們偵查不公開的部分那偵查不公開的原因一來我們是要保護這個案件的相關人讓他們的身份不被暴露出來那也避免輿論未審先判那二來是要確保警察還有我們的這個檢察官的偵查優勢避免打草驚蛇也避免嫌疑人有逃逆或串證滅證的這個情形"},{"start":7941.545,"end":7966.503,"text":"那目的則是要確保我們有一個公平審判然後落實無罪推定的部分但是在偵查不公開作業要點第8條裡面也有列出這個例外得以公開的情形我想請教我們部長有關前一陣子立法院我們有許多這個委員收到這個炸彈的恐嚇信是否也符合"},{"start":7967.524,"end":7978.292,"text":"這個偵查不公開作業要點第8條所說的有適度公開說明之必要如果有的話那目前我們偵辦的進度為何可不可以請部長大概說明一下"},{"start":7980.144,"end":8000.891,"text":"跟委員說明就是偵查不公開行事綜合有很明文的規定但是要怎麼執行我們也透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布了一個作業的辦法那這個辦法裡面就明白的規定說哪些是可以適度的公開那哪些是不能公開"},{"start":8002.071,"end":8020.299,"text":"所以我們大家都要遵守這樣的一個辦法跟規定那事實上委員提到這個如果這個恐嚇炸彈的這樣的信件是社會矚目而且大家關心危及到委員的安全當然可以適度的做說明公開"},{"start":8022.981,"end":8034.366,"text":"那我們有沒有大概現在進度到哪裡因為這個案子是刑事警察局他們受理在偵辦那整個進度他們會比較清楚好 那我們是請局長"},{"start":8039.85,"end":8056.884,"text":"委員好那因為這樣子目前在恐嚇我們立法委員部分因為之前恐嚇很多這種這個交通通道措施的部分那因為我們針對這個部分之前就有查過可能是一個陸生他來台灣這個讀書之後他回到大陸去了"},{"start":8057.364,"end":8077.222,"text":"那他因為之前有受了一些法律的這個約訓然後他認為說他是在這邊有被這個認為說是有一些犯罪的問題那他後來就沒有讀研究所就回去了那回去以後呢因為這個案子就不斷出發生但用語跟他的就是恐嚇的手法都是如出一側"},{"start":8078.383,"end":8092.1,"text":"那所以這一部分為了要安定所有的民心讓大家能夠穩定下來說這個人是在境外來恐嚇所以呢我們不管怎樣發生這些問題那就是我們的真武隊是一個防暴小隊一個小組他會來現場處理這些問題"},{"start":8094.423,"end":8109.505,"text":"那發現這個IP在境外那境內有沒有在聯絡那我們都會做一個偵查但是發現他是一個人單獨在做在放案所以我們就會把這部分讓大家安心的部分就講出來這個人是個大陸人他在大陸的西安市"},{"start":8111.087,"end":8125.183,"text":"局長這就境外對境內部分我們應該他他的這個部分應該是沒有其他的沒有共犯在境內沒有共犯在境內是是是好我也請我們局長針對這部分要去掌握相關的這個騎乘把那個對於我們立委"},{"start":8128.266,"end":8142.273,"text":"所投遞的這個恐惡的這些案件應該有一個比較好的處理沒有問題我們有一個專責大隊對好那局長先先這樣我想請教一下我們那個司法院的我們黃副秘書長"},{"start":8145.916,"end":8167.976,"text":"委員好好副秘長我想請教一下依照我們刑事訴訟法第245條的第三項需負義務的只限這個檢警、辯護人還有其他偵查程序依法執行職務的這些人等那但是在這個現實當中倘若社會發生重大的這個案件的時候"},{"start":8169.065,"end":8195.531,"text":"則是有檢警媒體還有社會大眾的三邊關係三者當中卻只有檢警受制於偵查不公開的原則這副部長您大概這三角關係您能理解嗎如果說其他的這些因為在偵查如果在偵查程序也如果說其他的人都知政府機關的人知道的話他應該還是要還是要去維持這個偵查秘密嘛好"},{"start":8196.511,"end":8208.099,"text":"可是這個其中的這個第四權就是媒體權媒體他常常會主張民眾有知的權利所以我們看到許多媒體會使用這種聳動的標題還有獨家的內幕的方式來呈現這個新聞"},{"start":8213.403,"end":8225.949,"text":"為了就是要帶動這個民眾對於這個議題的一個風向跟輿論那使得我們檢警在偵辦的過程當中有社會的壓力存在也可能迫於這種壓力然後透露一點這個相關的內情來"},{"start":8229.325,"end":8241.374,"text":"作為這個偵辦的這個進度的說明那我想請教這個副秘書長就是雖然媒體在偵查不公開的約束範圍之內那不在媒體不在這個範圍之內"},{"start":8243.564,"end":8257.929,"text":"可是根據這個偵查不公開作業要點第8條第一項的第7款他有提及到說媒體查證的報導與事實不符屬於特定的這個規定有澄清必要在實務上實務的這個工作上應該如何去權衡"},{"start":8263.202,"end":8289.034,"text":"根委員報告依照這一個這個第那個不公開作業辦法第8條的這一個第7款的這一個如果說媒體曾經已經有誤導或這些情形的話那麼檢警相關單位可能在澄清的必要範圍內可以去做一些澄清的這些說明那當然當然基本上來講都有一定的這些限制因為媒體不是在這一個"},{"start":8290.327,"end":8314.746,"text":"那個規定可以懲阻或禁止這個範圍所以不會涉及到這個偵查不公開的部分因為他還是在偵查不公開的範圍但是假設說有必要去做澄清的時候那麼偵查機關才會去做必要的這個說明這是屬於偵查不公開的這個例外那我再請教一下就是說那如果像有網友他如果主張說自己有查證過"},{"start":8316.311,"end":8344.768,"text":"那是否就是難以去成立這個毀謗罪而不需負任何的責任我想跟委員報告這個具體的毀謗的具體個案那我們的實務上面實務上面都有一定最高法院都有一定的這個界限他必須有合理的查證但具體的情形到底什麼情形合理的查證而且確實有確實這個查證而且相當的根據不是說他講說他有查證就可以當然不構成這個要看具體的個案"},{"start":8346.332,"end":8371.787,"text":"實務上面也相當多的這些案例好那我再請教一下我們副秘書長國民法官法這個上路已經滿一週年了那我們看到說國民法官法的實行細則第81條也有明確的規定司法院法務部應共同落實關於偵查不公開的這個規範確保國民參與審判的這個程序希望能夠有一個公正、中立而且客觀"},{"start":8372.948,"end":8385.438,"text":"並且可以維護參與審判國民的這個權利我想請教一下副秘書長這一年來國民法官這個相關的這個案件是否都皆有落實偵查不公開的原則司法院我們這邊有無對此進行檢討"},{"start":8388.818,"end":8402.276,"text":"跟委員報告那國民法官的案件大概都是偵查終結已經起訴了嘛已經起訴如果說還在檢查跟偵查中的話當然偵查偵查不公開我相信相信檢方檢察機關監警機關應該都會遵守那"},{"start":8403.457,"end":8429.709,"text":"那那個但是有可能國民法官已經起訴了但是還有其他的人其他案件還在偵查中那這個當然就是請國民法官要去注意說不能去妨礙到其他案件的偵查偵查不公開是那我們這一部分都有在我們的SOP包含說我們國民法官在開庭的時候審判長跟相關我們的作為過分都有提醒我們的國民法官目前都有在嚴格在遵守"},{"start":8430.094,"end":8448.87,"text":"好 都有掌握當中好 那我想請教一下我們部長部長 那個前面提到有關媒體及大眾在偵查過程所扮演的角色在案件的偵辦過程中我們因為資訊的洩漏使得社會的這些輿論先審未判而"},{"start":8449.43,"end":8478.668,"text":"被公審的人是相當無辜那就像剛剛那個我們宗嘉濱委員也有講到就媽媽嘴案的這就是一個典型的案例當時社會上的輿論捕風捉影未經查證使得無辜的這個咖啡店的老闆被貼上殺人犯的標籤即便事後司法已經還他這個清白可是當事人因為當時被未審先判的這個輿論還有受到嚴重傷害類似的這種公審案件"},{"start":8479.068,"end":8489.494,"text":"也不只一次那我想請問部長就針對像類似的這種偵查被公開而受到傷害的無辜嫌疑人是否能夠依法提出求查"},{"start":8490.781,"end":8511.368,"text":"如果從民事損害賠償的角度當然他可以來提出啦那最後結果如何也是看案件最後的判決所以他要提出一些民事的球場我想在法律上是許可的是許可的啦齁那我們現行的這個刑事補償法僅有對這個冤獄賠償而已啦齁那第6條規定"},{"start":8515.987,"end":8538.799,"text":"依照被羈押的這個天數支付相當的這個金額但是對於這個遭受社會輿論公審而造成這個被害人精神損害甚至影響到他後續人生的這個規劃我們是不是應該也要有一個比較好的一個賠償的機制的規劃才能夠讓我們這些無辜被這個波及的人有一個比較好的賠償"},{"start":8539.781,"end":8566.027,"text":"是 那刑事補償法已經有對於如果被羈押那是冤獄的話已經有一個相當的補償如果覺得不夠當然也可以再檢討或是從民事上再來要求好 那我是請我們法務部這邊是不是針對這部分去做比較好的研議讓我們無辜受害者也有一個比較好的一個球場的管道好 謝謝委員"},{"start":8567.671,"end":8570.373,"text":"主席我們請副秘書長還有部長麻煩部長副秘書長上台委員好"},{"start":8597.696,"end":8620.384,"text":"副秘書長本席要在這裡首先表達偵查不公開已經成為中華民國司法體制上最大的一個笑話本席想了很久司法不公開不只是司法界的笑話"},{"start":8622.745,"end":8647.715,"text":"更是對付國會在野黨最主要的利器叫司法不公開假借司法偵查不公開的名義讓國會很多事情都不能夠了解清楚人民知的權利都沒有辦法在重大事件發生的時候能夠讓立法院能夠調查清楚"},{"start":8649.062,"end":8673.799,"text":"所以我想今天的會議我們不是在鋪一些梗但是本席從剛剛聽到現在已經暗樁都已經開始在部署了針對未來國會改革的聽證權、調查權已經在民事、案事、法務部以後要對抗國會本席覺得偵查不公開這本來就是一個最基本的一個義務"},{"start":8675.39,"end":8699.845,"text":"但是法務部為什麼會做成這個樣子沒有人去相信法務部偵查不公開而司法院一直在睡覺為什麼全國人民都不相信司法這麼高的比例部長剛剛有提到啊108年到現在也都是在您部長任內有多少件"},{"start":8701.618,"end":8706.239,"text":"部長都不好意思回答本席的問題啊108年到現在7000多件"},{"start":8732.78,"end":8758.339,"text":"這麼多?還是這麼少?這是收集來的,認為可能報導出來。那個部長,7000多件啊,成案367件,處分15人。這是近親繁殖是嗎?7000多件最後處分15人。為什麼7000多件都會被漏出來,然後最後只處分15人?"},{"start":8760.302,"end":8788.559,"text":"北京在這裡請教請教一下部長偵查不公開然後每一件重大刑案重大的這個調查中的案件都洩漏出來光看一下那個《靖州刊》《靖州刊》現在是法務部的專報是嗎不是法務部的週刊每一份資料直接從那裡查比較快"},{"start":8790.765,"end":8812.763,"text":"本席要在這裡特別請部長您在可能是中華民國史上歷史在位最長的一位部長甚至可能會繼續連任但是我們對司法界我們到底留下了什麼可以讓人民來相信司法本席在這裡請教一下"},{"start":8814.192,"end":8820.218,"text":"到底針對偵查不公開的部分部長在你任內你做了什麼防制的方式有沒有"},{"start":8821.161,"end":8844.395,"text":"有,我們就訂定了這麼很嚴格的規定,很詳細的本來刑事書法只有一個很簡單的條文,就是偵查不公開,這樣子而已但是如何去執行,我們透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布這種作業辦法那很明確的哪些是可以公開,哪些是例外,或是說哪些是原則,我們都很明確的訂定"},{"start":8845.785,"end":8872.717,"text":"就像我們中央政府一再訓示要打炸打炸結果越打越炸是一樣的意思嗎不是我們都全力以赴啦我們目前所造成的問題是讓人民有信心部長人民要有信心啊每一件案子立法委要問偵查不公開"},{"start":8874.52,"end":8891.55,"text":"然後週刊寫得一清二楚自由時報寫得一清二楚本先生請教一下這到底是你們把他們當作一種管道來針對要打擊的目標來把它發布出來來帶風向輿論"},{"start":8894.625,"end":8923.821,"text":"最後就是結論目的就是為審先判是不是法務部不會做這種事情不會做這種事確定確定那本席請教一下在高鴻安的案子裡面這個很精彩很精彩這個週刊報導他有三種手法來乍理第一種"},{"start":8925.896,"end":8951.565,"text":"1.以低報告乍領助理費2.利用抵帳手法輕蹲助理加班費3.按月把立委辦公室相關的費用叫助理們來分攤連三項都列出來在當時大選前如何如圖這三項週刊都有報導"},{"start":8952.881,"end":8954.061,"text":"本席再提醒你一下在當時在偵詢過程"},{"start":8982.901,"end":9010.09,"text":"吃飯時間到了問他要吃什麼樣的便當他說他希望吃什麼樣的素食餐盒還便當好好吃在哪裡訂的這些通通都出來了在偵查過程中因為到了吃飯時間問他要吃什麼樣的餐盒他表達好不好吃通通報導出來"},{"start":9011.892,"end":9032.085,"text":"這叫偵查不公開嗎幾乎是同步的報道本期再請教楊文科縣長也同樣也是週刊報道說他的租金他的租金競選總部的租金這個廠商有回捐那這樣子的話是不是"},{"start":9033.454,"end":9061.625,"text":"請法務部通告所有全國各級民意代表亦或是行政首長有參選過程如果只要跟人家借租借或租競選總部那你租的對象就不能對你有任何實質公開的任何連公開的贊助都不可以是不是變成這個樣子今天我們去租了一個競選總部"},{"start":9063.854,"end":9090.576,"text":"這個總部的業主來對競選的這個時候政治獻金來捐助這樣就觸犯對價哇 這個部長乾脆把它據文法制化好了不能永遠只有一個字新政 什麼叫新政你們認為怎麼樣就是怎麼樣叫新政這個東西也出來了為什麼金額數字都有了"},{"start":9092.339,"end":9109.066,"text":"現在不是還在偵查中嗎部長是不是還在偵查中為什麼這些資料都有了再過來那個林志廟現場的事更離譜林志廟現場的事更離譜連啊這個說啊這個林志廟現場"},{"start":9122.079,"end":9150.106,"text":"跟特定人有多少錢的往來有多少支票這個還寫獨家然後多少對金額往來然後最後完完全全是一點關係都沒有但是打擊林志標縣長的選情是已經發生了效果部長"},{"start":9151.756,"end":9163.446,"text":"為什麼都是這些縣市長而且都是在大選前部長本希請教您一下到底我們防制的方法是什麼"},{"start":9165.232,"end":9191.427,"text":"請告訴大家我們嚴格的要求一定要遵守這個《刑事訴訟法》的規定還有作業辦法那我們也辦了很多的講習要警察官來瞭解哪些是可以公開哪些不可以公開甚至我們也轉達捂住的偵查機關也要遵守您回答的這些問題跟偵查不公開是一種笑話是一樣的意思嘛有沒有立刻可以解決的辦法有沒有"},{"start":9195.012,"end":9220.559,"text":"當然我們一再的就是要求嘛好 這樣子啦既然這個是刑事訴訟法245條這裡涉及洩密的問題當然是要查嘛本席請教一下部長是不是而後只要有偵辦重大案件同步任何媒體有相關內容的報導什麼獨家"},{"start":9226.345,"end":9253.463,"text":"什麼知情人士說只要看到有相關的問題相關的報導一出來法務部第一時間就出來否認可不可以說這些報導不是屬實法務部不干預可能各案處理怎麼講不干預七千多件啊對但是我們要求各地檢所以沒有關係我們不能法務部每一個地檢署的案子都來處理第一個大眾矚目的事情"},{"start":9255.512,"end":9282.05,"text":"如果部裡面可以先否認這些事情而且立刻啟動來調查是從哪一個管道洩密這樣是不是能夠徹底把這個問題根絕掉報紙一登立刻就查到底誰洩密第二個政府單位先否認先否認才不會為審先判才不會防護兼法官的職務"},{"start":9283.615,"end":9311.975,"text":"已經由法務部在調查就等於法官都不用審就已經有判決的結果把新證告訴全國國人讓法官又不敢忤逆整個社會共同形成的氛圍所以部長這個事情要怎麼去解決本席跟你分享一下2020大選前總統大選、立委大選前選前四天其實上網都還可以看得到"},{"start":9313.43,"end":9341.324,"text":"本期參選的地區花蓮縣玉里鎮一大早12個人被調去問裡面支持我的不到一半還有支持蕭美琴女士還有根本沒有管事的人當天問到晚上9點多一離開9點半蕭美琴女士就在臉書貼說某區一位候選人被調查預備會選"},{"start":9344.293,"end":9369.023,"text":"臉書就貼出來 現在都還查得到那謝謝法務部啊那裡面支持我的人不到一半還有支持蕭女士的還有根本不管事的結果那些人從早上6點鐘被直接敲碗把人帶走問到晚上9點結果那12個人非常非常的生氣回去全部都支持我"},{"start":9373.139,"end":9402.088,"text":"謝謝法務部結果本席在於李政22個票統全部都贏我想今天這種帶風向的辦案部長不能再做這種事情本席剛剛已經建議第一時間第一時間部裡面要先否認相關的報導讓他們不再有公信力第二個立刻啟動調查到底誰洩密如果部長有這樣的決心"},{"start":9403.237,"end":9431.369,"text":"我們相信大家就會相信法務部我們再看一下最後部長您上次一直很好奇說到底誰講的我現在跟您跟您建議一下台灣公民人權聯盟所做的調查委託山水民意調查公司所做的調查詢問百姓民眾檢察官大案的時候會不會受到政治的影響看一下結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":9434.491,"end":9445.596,"text":"85%的人相信會影響只有9%的人認為不會影響部長我們真的本席剛剛建議您的方式真的可以用一下看看說不定立竿見影馬上就有效果"},{"start":9447.177,"end":9474.928,"text":"就不會再有所謂的獨家內幕報導就不會有是委員的建議如果他真的有涉及到洩漏或是違反偵查不公開我們馬上啟動要求調查第一時間報紙出來立刻就啟動調查啟動調查以後誰還會再洩密負責的他的上級單位等等來預法調查立刻調查就不會再有人洩密可以嗎"},{"start":9475.828,"end":9476.728,"text":"我們下一位請吳思耀委員巡檔"},{"start":9507.013,"end":9510.88,"text":"主席、蔡部長、司法院副秘書長"},{"start":9520.578,"end":9543.309,"text":"好 大家早安我今天講話會氣比較虛一點因為剛剛在另外一個委員會居然被委員暴力相向所以有一點氣虛這樣但我還是會非常努力的來完成我今天的專業問政跟監督的工作好 偵查不公開偵查被公開我們好好來探討這個問題喔下一頁"},{"start":9546.294,"end":9562.826,"text":"但是我想今天是318事件的10週年318學運的10週年這台灣歷史上民主史上以公民不服從為由那發生的一個"},{"start":9563.925,"end":9581.327,"text":"最大也最為到今天都還深受民主影響的社會運動的10週年318的10週年帶給我們從政者什麼樣子的教訓也就是告訴我們從政者國家的權利再大"},{"start":9582.27,"end":9596.752,"text":"也不能夠傷害犧牲國家的前途不能夠去輕忽公民的力量我想這是對於政治工作者318事件10週年給我們很大的反饋跟檢討"},{"start":9598.394,"end":9622.842,"text":"那今天站在我面前的是我們的法務機關318的10週年在司法面我們還是有很多值得探討的部分檢視的部分部長你知道嗎在318事件當中學運事件當中國家以侵入駐居毀損罪等等妨礙公務等等對人民尤其是學生為主提告的案件有多少"},{"start":9629.701,"end":9642.765,"text":"當時的行政院院長江怡化對126名學生、平民提起了這些的告訴所以他也成為台灣司法史上規模最大的國家對人民提告的司法案件"},{"start":9644.229,"end":9654.175,"text":"那我再進一步問部長你知道嗎人民也以自訴的方式向警察來追訴暴力犯罪要求國賠你知道有多少案件嗎也有這種案件"},{"start":9656.604,"end":9683.121,"text":"加起來大概也有將近100件所以換言之我剛剛為什麼說318學運是台灣司法史上規模最大的司法案件就是人民跟國家之間因為前前後後有211人次成為被告或者是原告所以呢平民百姓要對付國家被迫跟國家對付公帑很多是年輕人"},{"start":9685.218,"end":9706.358,"text":"歷經了6年到9年陸陸續續終於終於獲得司法審判最後的正義您知道監察院在2023年曾經針對318學運國家的執法有做出調查報告您知道嗎?我知道監察院的報告非常清楚他寫的是"},{"start":9707.614,"end":9735.096,"text":"行政院也就是國家政府違反比例原則之暴力手段來執行驅離是過當的所以監察院具體的在2023的調查報告也糾正了行政院糾正了內政部警政署糾正了臺北市政府也糾正了臺北地檢署這個是監察院的報告而這整個事件只有一位臺北市警局的特勤中隊長被申見兩次"},{"start":9737.096,"end":9755.931,"text":"民眾控告警察的案子全部都敗訴了就是官告民的部分全部敗訴了當時打人的對於人民施以暴力的過當的不符合比例原則的警察人員至今查無此人沒有任何人"},{"start":9757.438,"end":9779.01,"text":"被究責．只有一個小隊．中隊長兩個身屆．當時下令的指揮官．在司法的審判下依舊是無罪的那我們非常感謝林全院長．他在上任之後2016年5月20上任之後．他快速的針對江怡化前院長．對於學生平民提告的這個部分．全部來取消"},{"start":9780.271,"end":9799.549,"text":"因此讓很多的平民百姓學生不需要去心送避免了去走入這樣一個辛苦的程序但我講了這麼多現在我們都要非常清楚地去檢視人民的力量公民不服從如果當國會的多數"},{"start":9801.676,"end":9819.893,"text":"利用多數的力量當然這是一種民主選舉的結果但是切莫不要提出違反國家前途傷及人民利益的議案否則我們我們很不希望有318學運再次的發生"},{"start":9820.922,"end":9839.411,"text":"但是如果國家過當的去忽略人民的聲音那麼勢必會再來一回我在這裡提出來的是在司法面我們有值得檢視的意義兩位收到了解我想要追尋與你們的內容嗎"},{"start":9840.376,"end":9855.341,"text":"就是這麼多臺灣司法史上最大的國家對於人民提告的案件人民是何等的弱勢?人民是何等的弱勢?如果沒有林全院長當時主動的撤銷對學生的提告"},{"start":9856.301,"end":9884.884,"text":"這些學生持續的在心頌當中求助無門更甚至有22位包括林飛帆、陳維廷等等他們的告訴也歷經非常多年被檢察官起訴了22人也走了曠日廢時最終獲判無罪這樣一個歷史教訓告訴我們司法的審判不可不慎司法是站在人民的一邊大家有catch到我的訊息嗎"},{"start":9886.496,"end":9912.914,"text":"好 進入今天的主題為什麼偵查要不公開為了維護偵查程序順利進行以及有利於真實的發現為了保障案件關係人的名譽、隱私及安全為了落實無罪推定的原則確保被告要受到絕對公平的審判這就是《刑事訴訟法》245條所定的偵查不公開的立法利益"},{"start":9913.875,"end":9937.996,"text":"所以你們組成了檢討小組在上一集有督導小組每半年要針對你們去偵查有沒有公開的查處對外說明對不對程序上是這樣 下一頁但是我要很橫平的講之前有很多委員都在說偵查不公開是笑話這些委員要自我檢視因為偵查不公開之所以有壓力的破口"},{"start":9939.444,"end":9962.083,"text":"來自於兩端一個是媒體他基於報導的需求他想方設法去挖新聞去探新聞也許媒體也有能耐去介入檢調內部你們確實有人會洩密這個大家都要查辦但是另外一端非常重要的就是偵查不公開的壓力破口來自於政治力的介入難道不是嗎"},{"start":9963.084,"end":9983.491,"text":"今天從頭到尾有多少委員就是造成了你們偵查不公開的壓力破口就在今天right now的司法法制委員會政治力過蕩的介入偵查中的案件我有我的說法部長你們感同身受吧你們也承受非常大的壓力好我們來看幾個案例下一頁"},{"start":9984.588,"end":10009.173,"text":"以楊文科現場的案例當然如果任何一個報導媒體有辦法去獲得機密的資訊而率先揭露了我也認為這要查要辦所以呢楊文科的案子社攤的風暴被禁新聞這樣踢爆出來這就違反了偵查不公開現在有在調查嗎有"},{"start":10013.069,"end":10041.102,"text":"有在偵辦當中那就好好查我不介入個案畢竟偵辦中的案件被媒體披露當然就不應該有人泄密該查就查下一頁就楊文科的案子另外一個部分的壓力破口就來自於政治人物國民黨的立法院黨團公然召開記者會給予我們減掉很大的壓力第一個政治力介入國民黨的委員說"},{"start":10043.33,"end":10044.32,"text":"楊文科要備聲援"},{"start":10045.629,"end":10075.089,"text":"他一開始就說定了是司法的迫害這是一種政治力的介入個案第二個國民黨的委員在記者會當中還清楚的要求檢調說清楚講明白楊文科到底觸犯了《貪污自罪條例》的哪個部分是天坑案嗎還是其他案件檢調要說清楚講明白這就非常清楚是國民黨委員利用記者會利用政治的壓力要求你們偵查要公開不是嗎"},{"start":10076.13,"end":10089.23,"text":"你們很無奈．但是該堅持就堅持．該挺住就挺住 下一頁金星文的案子．對不起 好 金香海域的事件在野黨委員要求成立調閱小組"},{"start":10091.013,"end":10120.165,"text":"但是最終這個案子他們沒有提出一個偵辦當中的案件尤其涉及國家安全我們國人都要站在國家執法的一方都要站在我們司法審判獨立超然公正的一方但是藉由成立調閱小組要去調閱偵查中的卷證當然不行下一頁進週刊的案例進電視的案例也是藍白委員要求成立調閱小組就這個個案已經成立了"},{"start":10120.945,"end":10144.366,"text":"他們一樣違反了憲法大法官釋字729號下一頁我就不贅述了立法委員調閱的資料不能夠逾越檢察官的調查權偵查中的案件自不得來調閱相關卷證好下一頁再下一頁最後我要說"},{"start":10145.717,"end":10167.116,"text":"我當然理解偵查不公開你們有很大的壓力很大的壓力破口來自於政治力但是你們該辦就要辦該查就要查108年到112年新聞檢討報告的偵查不公開的查處只查辦處分了兩人下一頁我進一步調閱你們每半年公告一次的偵查不公開的查處"},{"start":10170.478,"end":10196.364,"text":"近兩年來22個地檢署處分了10人桃園地檢4人基隆地檢6人近兩年6個高檢署處分了多少人針對偵查不公開的案件的洩密呢處分了0人你們的查處查辦在查什麼的如果我們都厭惡偵查不公開一再的被迫公開你就要勇敢的去查誰洩密誰逾越了法規"},{"start":10198.355,"end":10214.29,"text":"誰違反了刑事訴訟法245條誰違反了你們偵查不公開的作業原則都要查部長、副秘書長你們針對這種查辦處分是零這是查真的查假的辦真的辦假的來您綜合回覆"},{"start":10215.88,"end":10232.124,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那對於偵查不公開我們一定要要求我們的檢察官還有輔助的司法警察機關在偵查案件當中一定要嚴守相關的規矩嚴守之外就有人不嚴守不嚴守調查是這種數字這種查辦你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":10237.9,"end":10264.672,"text":"當然要看每一個案件的內容那高檢署他處分的是指他自己本身還是說他所屬的包括所有的地檢因為地檢有處分的這個就應當你們來跟國會說明的我是自己去Google每半年的報告一個地檢署一個地檢署去調查混混我們來討論這個部分到底他處分的是哪些人哪些人該他被調查確實涉及洩密"},{"start":10265.612,"end":10291.768,"text":"自己內部但是卻沒有被處分我想這是立委就通案的部分應當對你們提出的監督但是對於個案的部分我覺得委員們我要再次提醒我們都不要過當的讓政治力來介入司法檢調這是違憲的我要再次強調不好意思主席多給我時間也謝謝兩位我們好好針對這個部分偵查不公開的爭議案件頻傳可是我們的查處卻是個位數卻是零"},{"start":10294.289,"end":10294.529,"text":"我們現在開始休息五分鐘"},{"start":10768.097,"end":10785.385,"text":"好我們現在開始開會我們接下來請林思明委員請到好謝謝主席主席有請我們法務部部長請蔡部長部長好委員好部長我剛才這個"},{"start":10794.384,"end":10821.716,"text":"吳士堯委員他這個講說是對於楊文科縣長這個案件我剛才聽他講說是因為國民黨黨團我們開記者會這個什麼政治操作要求檢方公開我想這一點我要做一下相關的一個澄清跟說明道理說國民黨團去開記者會對於檢方就楊文科50萬交保這件事情他交保的是由那麼檢方"},{"start":10823.917,"end":10834.846,"text":"如果適時的揭露一些相關的內容會不會違反偵查不公開我想我們真的要講清楚說明白我想這個案子剛才很多委員也有來詢問部長"},{"start":10837.082,"end":10862.412,"text":"那我想我們當初開記者會就是基於說這個這個交保的時機點非常敏感就是說因為是前一天才台南市的黃偉哲市長接受約談那第二天呢就姚文科縣長就被搜索然後而且被重保50萬交保那交保的原因大家都在猜到底姚文科為什麼要交保"},{"start":10863.631,"end":10885.194,"text":"黃偉哲是直接就賜回就請回那楊文科卻要重保50萬楊文科本來表示說我莫名其妙為什麼我要交保他還一度拒保那後來經過溝通協調那才這個50萬元他也去做這個交保的一個處分但是我們現在要澄清一點"},{"start":10886.295,"end":10903.652,"text":"就是說這個檢方當初做交保的時候因為我們那時候第一時間就是非常疑惑就是說到底他為什麼要50萬交保到底他是發生了什麼事那你說涉貪涉貪是涉及哪一個案件"},{"start":10904.753,"end":10930.108,"text":"那據於這一點我想我們還是認為這個是要跟社會大眾說明白講清楚因為這是一個縣長呢涉犯了一個重大案件然後也被交保處分那要對縣民新竹縣民要有一個交代所以檢方應該適時的就交保的理由來做出相關的一個說明部長您認為這樣有這個違反任何偵查不公開的原則嗎"},{"start":10931.004,"end":10951.565,"text":"如果按照規定涉及到公共利益的維護或是合法權益的保護有必要的時候是可以適度的來公開和介入所以看這個案件的情形如何由承辦的檢察官來認定所以我想部長所以這個案子我們只想了解"},{"start":10952.085,"end":10961.421,"text":"他到底因為涉犯哪一件貪污案涉犯哪一件貪污案比如說現在媒體揭露的是因為天坑案"},{"start":10963.377,"end":10981.627,"text":"因為實際的內容還是要由陳辦的地檢署檢察官最了解所以他基於一個新竹縣的大家長那是不是我們適度的去揭露說他是因為什麼案子涉嫌貪污重大所以給他交保這難道不能講嗎"},{"start":10984.279,"end":11011.712,"text":"呃 他們有發信物稿他們有發信物稿有做適度的說明啊但是我跟你講那時候那也許大家不滿意嘛但是要到最後偵查結束了所以我他自然而然會全部的公開嘛那等到偵查結束大家就一直在猜了嘛所以現在才會發生說今天進週刊去揭露多那麼多的一個這個案子的事實內容才會讓我們覺得說這個案子是不是早就已經寫好腳本了照表操課"},{"start":11012.913,"end":11032.14,"text":"先做一個交保搜索然後交保處分然後禁搜刊出來帶風響我想部長我們來看禁搜刊他的相關報導內容這真的是已經逾越偵查不公開把這個相關的一個犯罪的一個事實還有事證他竟然可以這麼鉅細靡遺的講出來這個偵查這個實質的核心內容他都可以講出來"},{"start":11037.522,"end":11054.407,"text":"這個我們不禁懷疑這不是檢方在去做這個相關事實的一個透露他怎麼會知道到底是不是偵辦的同仁或是其他相關的機關人員所洩漏的這是我們需要了解"},{"start":11054.887,"end":11074.053,"text":"是部長我想這個部分因為新竹地檢署也有發一個新聞稿新竹地檢署表示他們絕無可能對會去洩露這個透露這個報導的一個內容那是否為調查局北機組洩密上須調查那調查局北機組也表示"},{"start":11074.893,"end":11096.612,"text":"此案他們只是借用北部地區低動工作站的場地來約談他們實質沒有參與這個一個調查的調查那個涉嫌人他沒有參與那對案件的內容也毫無所知所以他說他實在也不可能會有洩密的一個情勢所以我請問部長"},{"start":11098.053,"end":11121.113,"text":"現在各說各話這件事情地檢署他的新聞稿說他們絕無可能會去洩密然後調局說我只根本沒有參與這個本案事實內容的一個調查我只是把這個場地借給這個地檢署而已兩個說法南轅北轍所以都表示不可能絕不會去洩漏這個相關的一個事實內容給媒體"},{"start":11122.814,"end":11149.905,"text":"所以我現在不禁懷疑難道這個是週刊寫的出來啊這是他杜撰的嗎兩個單位都說我不可能洩密啊因為可能他收集相關的資料他做分析判斷那這個我們是所以部長你認為不排除週刊杜撰的可能性啊這也是可能之一啦那有沒有人洩密我們也要調查是所以部長我現在想說"},{"start":11151.314,"end":11158.874,"text":"前面我們開記者會緊緊要求說應該檢調就是說交保的相關的一個犯罪的一個這個"},{"start":11160.898,"end":11180.448,"text":"類別你要講清楚他是因為涉及哪一個案子沒有要求你把相關的事證講出來你要告訴社會大眾一個堂堂的新竹縣的縣長今天被50萬重保他因為涉及什麼案件有相關的事證掌握你可以講啊你不用把事證的內容講出來但是我們現在看到這個案子報導的報導我這個大概唸給你聽"},{"start":11185.45,"end":11205.893,"text":"他講說,檢調除了掌握建商員工首期通年,提到縣長好像搞定了．更查出陽文科前年競選連任的總部．也就是瘋疫建案的豪華接待中心．還故意寫個豪華．離譜的是幾副瘋疫的87萬元中金．瘋疫不久就全數用政治現金的民意回贈"},{"start":11207.074,"end":11211.856,"text":"外界不知檢調在大動作搜索前﹐早就掌握五大關鍵事證﹐懷疑陽文科涉嫌受益公務處﹐放水天坑建商復工﹐其中存在對價關係"},{"start":11239.044,"end":11257.415,"text":"寫這麼清楚週刊可以爆出這麼詳細的一個爆料把相關的事實事證他可以講得出來這難道不是有人透露給他嗎不一定會是辦案人員透露有一些基本事實從過去的新聞然後再讓法律的嘗試去判斷"},{"start":11258.756,"end":11281.367,"text":"也許可以猜測得到,我們不敢講,但是我們會再調查清楚啦。這部長我想這件事情這個凸顯出就是說我們今天要這個講的偵查不公開的這個原則,那我們剛才副總召也講了就是說我們發覺說說我們檢調單位就是常常透露相關的獨家的內容給我們的相關的媒體,那"},{"start":11283.622,"end":11305.588,"text":"為什麼他可以拿到這些相關的一個事實內容去或者讓媒體能夠捕風捉影到底是因為這家週刊跟檢調的關係比較好還是說是因為受到上級的指示要透露來故意做整個政治操作"},{"start":11306.788,"end":11322.554,"text":"這個大家都在想像空間很大所以怎麼樣來嚴守我們偵查不公開的原則來杜絕這種情勢繼續發生啊柏柳你有什麼樣的一個想法怎麼樣來讓這種事情不要再發生"},{"start":11323.334,"end":11345.329,"text":"我們會強力的要求檢察官還有其他的辦案同仁還有其他的偵查機關都是要遵守這個規定那對於媒體的報導如果有澄清的必要也要不要做事實的澄清也不能一直的被黑鍋所以這個案子現在該副總裁要講了嗎你開始要啟動調查有啟動調查了嗎"},{"start":11346.63,"end":11363.929,"text":"有,他們應該都就新聞的報導都會有收集然後做檢討那高監署也會督導到底是哪一個環節洩這個密洩露這些內容還是週刊杜撰的你"},{"start":11364.522,"end":11383.039,"text":"大概多久可以查得出來我會要求高檢署就現在調查局或是地檢署他們有他們的說明到底是何者為真還是有其他的原因要再進一步的去了解所以我這個希望也這個要求"},{"start":11383.797,"end":11384.417,"text":"我們會做行政的督導"},{"start":11400.788,"end":11428.404,"text":"除了這個案子我再來跟你討論另外一個就是金門的海域的大陸漁船翻覆這個事件這個事件我們看到部長檢調是嚴防這個很嚴格的去實手我們偵查不公開的原則但立法院很多委員在質詢的時候就到底船隻有碰撞這一點呢都被以偵查不公開的理由不讓全民知道真相"},{"start":11429.344,"end":11451.039,"text":"沒有這回事兩件事情兩種態度啊沒有地檢署沒有說不能來對外說明因為按照這個規定如果涉及到公共利益或是合法的權益啊那是可以適度的分開但是就傳之有沒有碰撞這一個事實啊地檢署說這言新聞地檢說這個是偵查不公開他沒有這樣說沒有這樣說嗎那有證實說是碰撞嗎公開的新聞稿裡面說他沒有"},{"start":11458.185,"end":11465.845,"text":"對外這樣說那他有他有講是也許是其他的辦案單位他自己的判斷"},{"start":11467.267,"end":11484.934,"text":"但是按照我們作業辦法的規定是如果有涉及到公共利益或是合法權益的可以適度的公開說明那個部長我想我最後的結論我想我絕對相信檢調的一個操守也絕對經得起檢驗但是這兩個案子"},{"start":11489.696,"end":11510.512,"text":"偏偏是很清楚的雙標啦你剛一直跟我講金門地檢他們沒有這樣說但是我們看到的情況金門地檢就嚴守偵查不公開到底這個案情的內容資質不透露啊到底大家想了解的真相就到底船隻有沒有碰撞他一直不願意去很適度的做一個揭露承辦的單位"},{"start":11513.895,"end":11538.553,"text":"所以我還是這個要求我們法務部絕對不能因為受到政治的影響每一位檢察官都要獨立辦案絕對不要受政治的影響而做出違反偵查不公開這樣的原則不會受到政治的影響對 真的要在這裡嚴格的要求不過也請大家尊重檢察官他們獨立行使職權好 謝謝"},{"start":11542.822,"end":11559.638,"text":"謝謝,那我們接下來我們先處理那個會議時間上午會議時間我們會持續進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答完畢為止那接下來我們請翁委員小林進行詢答"},{"start":11573.021,"end":11576.468,"text":"主席、各位官員大家好,還有有請部長。請蔡部長。"},{"start":11583.183,"end":11607.564,"text":"委員好部長您辛苦了從今天早上一直到現在其實我想委員們問的問題都差不多尤其是針對這次凱凱被保母虐死案然後後續又延伸了社工的這個被具體上銬的這個問題也引起了社工界的很大的反應那麼大家認為說這個在僅僅"},{"start":11610.265,"end":11610.285,"text":"麻煩這個"},{"start":11637.932,"end":11641.535,"text":"下一頁圖表我想在刑事訴訟法裡面其實也規定得很清楚對於要進行拘提他其實有要進行一定的步驟有一些條件的如果說是以今天社工的情況他其實都已經到了警察局"},{"start":11660.572,"end":11669.543,"text":"也到那裡去進行案情的說明那麼就算是檢察官有之前有開G票可是這樣子的做法是正確的嗎?"},{"start":11671.503,"end":11693.095,"text":"在法律上他是可以這樣做的是可是這樣的話有沒有逾越了他的逾越比例原則我們可以看一下其實在現行的法律裡面的規定就是除非是這個被告的犯罪嫌疑重大然後有符合一定的條件必要的時候才可以不經傳喚進行拘提可是今天的情況就是說這個社工"},{"start":11694.216,"end":11716.71,"text":"他已經都到警局而且呢看起來也都很配合可是我們警方卻這個仍然是當時這個有合法這個拘票這樣子的行為是不是已經違反了警這個已經違反了檢察官這個一般辦案的這樣做法"},{"start":11718.01,"end":11741.231,"text":"法律上它是合法的但是有沒有比例原則上這個考量那這個是可以在個案上判斷那請問過去檢察署這邊曾經有針對檢察官這個就不法的去合法拘票的這件事情有進行過內部的檢討嗎或是你們有訂定過什麼樣的一個注意事項嗎"},{"start":11743.323,"end":11766.213,"text":"針對拘票的問題當然很少看到說有不合法的因為畢竟法律對檢察官來講他個案的處理他經驗很豐富而且還有主任檢察官還有相岳還有檢察長在督導所以個案上並沒有看到說有違法的所以你們過去都沒有發現過就是說有檢察官有濫發拘票的這樣的狀況"},{"start":11770.727,"end":11779.857,"text":"據我所知是沒有因為這樣我認為其實這這麼多年來一定會有檢查關係也許有但是我想沒有說拿出來檢討要處罰的"},{"start":11782.094,"end":11790.925,"text":"但是從這個案子裡面其實就已經凸顯出其實檢察官是不是有濫發G票的一個問題那麼在過去我們其實常看到新聞上面都有這樣的一個問題的產生所以我希望法務部能夠針對這個檢查發G票的"},{"start":11801.677,"end":11802.177,"text":"這次也是社會大眾對於我們的這個"},{"start":11829.893,"end":11845.696,"text":"這警察人員為什麼要給社工上銬的這個行為認為有非常嚴重的瑕疵那麼依照我們現在的這個刑事訴訟法的一個相關的規定其實"},{"start":11848.969,"end":11863.757,"text":"執行具體逮捕或解送得使用、借據但是不得逾越必要的程度請問財良權這個部分在過去的檢查署這邊是怎麼樣的做解說或是警察單位"},{"start":11865.219,"end":11894.023,"text":"因為執行是在警察所以他要看判斷當時的狀況是不是有這個必要的情形所以就這次的社工的情況來說您認為他有必要要上手銬嗎因為我沒有看到整個案件的情形所以我想這個東西還是可以尊重這個案情比較了解的懲辦人員來做必要的判斷今天警政署也有來嗎警政署的代表"},{"start":11898.15,"end":11915.545,"text":"請局長上台是報告委員我是刑事警察局局長周又偉是那這個案子的話因為是當時是依據檢察官的拘票來執行這樣的一個具體的行動那這個具體我們自己有一個辦法是執行具體逮捕、借送"},{"start":11916.266,"end":11917.667,"text":"要遵守比例原則不能逾越必要程度"},{"start":11938.467,"end":11953.527,"text":"是謝謝局長的這個解說那很重要就其實在刑事訴訟法裡面就已經講了你就算是要使用借據要符合比例原則而且也必須要注意到被告或犯罪嫌疑人的身體及名譽要避免他公然暴露"},{"start":11954.688,"end":11954.708,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":11977.623,"end":11995.561,"text":"上課之後他有沒有注意到其實也是要維護到社工的名譽而應該要做一個適當的遮掩但這個部分其實看起來警察是都沒有做到從一開始我們剛剛講是不是使用拘票然後之後再"},{"start":11999.324,"end":11999.644,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12020.054,"end":12020.094,"text":"主席"},{"start":12039.156,"end":12063.091,"text":"大批的記者在門外守候而且直接的拍攝那麼這個有關於偵查不公開的作業部分看起來法務部其實自己本身是有訂定偵查不公開作業辦法可是我大致上看一下應該說我看了這個偵查不公開作業辦法其實裡面的規定其實都很抽象那不知道為什麼"},{"start":12064.592,"end":12085.308,"text":"就是就法務部這邊沒有要求各個檢查或檢調單位有訂定更細緻的注意要點我現在看到的是警察機關這裡他是有訂定有關於跟新聞媒體的這個注意要點但是檢查但是就是檢調機關沒有那我想請教部長為什麼沒有在"},{"start":12089.216,"end":12089.416,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12120.036,"end":12143.147,"text":"警察機關、警政署這邊訂定的警察機關偵辦、刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則的注意要點裡面是訂的更為細緻很多的細節都有訂定所以我在這邊我也希望這個法務部這邊也可以就是比較像是參考警政署所訂的這個注意要點自己的檢調機關也應該要訂定類似的要點"},{"start":12145.528,"end":12167.95,"text":"還有就是說在之前剛剛前面幾位委員有講的其實你們針對這個偵查不公開也有進行定期的檢討可是很有趣的就是不管是在高檢署、法務部等等自己內部所進行的檢討的案件數非常多但是實際上真的有被處罰的人數卻非常非常少那麼所以我就不知道你們"},{"start":12168.37,"end":12173.312,"text":"檢討數字多是因為他收集所有報道出來的有關案件的這些文章或是報道內容都要來檢討所以他案件很多因為每一天報紙都有很多個案的一個報道"},{"start":12197.318,"end":12225.735,"text":"那至於這些是不是有涉及到偵查不公開案件自然會變少那這個少數但是我們還是很深入去探討有沒有違反要負責任的是我認為說可能你們檢討小組裡面也出了一些問題如果說都是自己內部的人在進行檢討而沒有引進引入外部的專家學者甚至媒體一起來進入來討論的話那麼我認為說這樣的偵查不公開可能你未來就算是"},{"start":12226.615,"end":12232.157,"text":"檢討了一千件一萬件也不會有任何的這個人員的處分這樣的話對於我們要促進我們偵查不公開讓他能夠更重視人權這是沒有注意的所以我希望就說你們能夠好好的要去檢討有關於偵查不公開作業辦法若違反的話那麼相關的懲處以及如何能夠將"},{"start":12250.102,"end":12264.481,"text":"徵查不公開作業的辦法在往下落實可以訂定更細緻的作業要點這樣才有辦法真的能夠維護司法人權以上好 謝謝謝謝 請回那我們接下來請賴氏寶委員請答"},{"start":12281.477,"end":12294.788,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進先請一下司法院黃副秘書長請副秘書長上台委員好秘書長好"},{"start":12297.155,"end":12308.128,"text":"最近我看到司法院在大法官說要對Face的事情進行辯論什麼時候會有辯論?應該4月23號什麼時候會有結果?"},{"start":12312.933,"end":12313.815,"text":"按照過去的時間表差不多"},{"start":12328.018,"end":12330.52,"text":"超過八成以上的臺灣老百姓是反對FACE的"},{"start":12354.008,"end":12383.059,"text":"Face只有執政黨這邊特別是蔡總統也會再推動那大法官又是他任命的外界就很擔心我請你告訴大法官或者最少告訴院長許中立嘛是吧對嘛告訴他他如果事先的結果是Face的話一定引起民眾大幅的反彈"},{"start":12384.266,"end":12408.267,"text":"特別在最近滅統案的事件刑保286條我就把它修法我要提案啊改了死刑現在最高就無舉徒刑而已你們現在都是處處在替加害者在講他的人權那個受害者咧這樣子兒童這麼的一個innocent然後被這樣弄死了"},{"start":12409.485,"end":12437.693,"text":"一想到這個心會痛啊然後居然你們要大法官為這個事情說哎喲 死刑要不要把它廢掉喔喔 人權喔這些 這些傻人犯罪的人權喔我就是請你來上來就告訴你這也是多數委員的一個心聲多數老百姓的心聲請他務必 請你務必要告訴司法院這些大法官們偉大的大法官"},{"start":12439.272,"end":12463.199,"text":"老實講現在有37位沒有來來來法務部長一起來現在有37位沒有執行嘛對不對37、38還沒有執行37嘛3737啊就是法務部跟司法院兩個串通起來就一直把他延延延你搞什麼經過憲法法庭"},{"start":12464.625,"end":12487.74,"text":"這莫名其妙 原來就可以執行 那個辦法實在 那個不是法律啊 經過這個是你的執行辦法裡面 你的一個行政命令而已你就給他開一條路 哎喲 你能去這喔 非常上訴 再上訴 然後呢 走現場法庭你只給他一條路 大家都走這條路 我跟委員說明 那個辦法是我還沒有上任之前就已經 我知道 你可以改啊"},{"start":12488.783,"end":12506.856,"text":"那這是他有一個救急報告你可以改啊 蔡部長你外面的形象是不錯的評價也不錯的你不要因為這樣子葬送你一輩子的那種那種我不知道580之後你會不會繼續拒認了我們看了 司法院憲法法庭他判決該改我們就會改你裡面就該改了對 該改就會改這個不是法律"},{"start":12511.493,"end":12518.18,"text":"這個已經拖這麼久了37、38個最大、中大、二級的那即時改了也是個溯及既往阿對這37位來講他還是要遵守原來的規定阿你就規定這個拿掉就沒有那個憲法法庭的事情了他現在一直督就讓他有個憲法法庭走這裡面純粹就是要該有的救濟機會我們還是要先讓我講完救濟程序結束以後我們該怎麼做就怎麼做先讓我講完可以嗎你不要講話"},{"start":12536.963,"end":12558.174,"text":"整個來講 法務部、司法院通通就在執行蔡英文已降民進黨的 mindset就是要 face 全民反對 八成以上反對這一次啊 賴清德得票只有鞏固基本法40%這是原因之一好 那個 副秘書長請回了"},{"start":12560.58,"end":12586.566,"text":"部長啊是老實講你以前的形象都不錯但是這次選舉的時候我對你大大的失望我還是一般來來來不要講話我沒講你先不要講喔檢察官在選前大動作約談去過大陸的里長台北市里長40幾個文山區的里長有22個里長被約談了早上一大早7點"},{"start":12588.567,"end":12612.793,"text":"敲門啊 帶走 到下午4點再放回來這有什麼人權 7點進去啊 4點出來啊這個 被約談了以後 基本上沒辦法申請良民證了然後 里長不能參加議銷 來 有一個里長木柵分隊張里長 不要講他的名字"},{"start":12613.991,"end":12637.496,"text":"你看 它裡面寫什麼 刑事資料沒有顯示該案偵解判決結果 所以不給他參加議銷我要做義工 我做議銷 就是因為你們檢察官給人家約談了到現在掉在半空中 他良民證不能申請 他民防不能參加 議銷不能參加這是什麼跟什麼啊 部長啊"},{"start":12640.281,"end":12657.539,"text":"這個反滲透法是一部惡法反滲透法裡面比如說何建華不是拿中共的錢嗎老共的錢嗎辦了三年輕輕鬆鬆的還判無罪這個東西本來他就是本來他就是一個"},{"start":12659.281,"end":12682.772,"text":"思想的一個東西這個根本就不夠具體我們的反省動法講什麼?境外勢力只是委託或支柱什麼叫只是?什麼叫委託?什麼叫支柱?結果更扯的 不能夠告訴人家喔我在國會殿堂我負責任講出來我們22個文山隊里長被約談檢查官都問同一個問題都問同一個問題喔"},{"start":12687.233,"end":12703.425,"text":"當然都告訴他說問你的不能講可是事關我當然要跟我講問他一個問題說你們去大陸接受招待大陸有沒有指示你們說要支持賴思寶這憑名賴思寶欸"},{"start":12706.533,"end":12727.695,"text":"就點名賴世保欸22個通通問同一個問題其他的但是又一個中心的問題都一樣然後載過來第二個問某一個里長說為什麼賴世保的肇事你跑第一個上去我們的里長都很聰明啊腦筋很靈光啊他說我是國民黨籍我當然支持賴世保啊"},{"start":12729.565,"end":12740.811,"text":"昨天被折磨從7點折磨到下午4點到現在什麼也沒有Pending在那裡不能申請良民證不能去當異鄉不能去參加民訪工作"},{"start":12742.463,"end":12745.605,"text":"法務部的檢察官法務部借選非常嚴重"},{"start":12760.967,"end":12777.073,"text":"沒有這件事啊!絕對嚴重!絕對就行!不是!不能這樣解讀啦!那你現在會怎麼這個案子呢?那我會教訓他盡快來結案!要結案啦!他是有犯罪嫌疑才會被約談!約談也不代表說他是構成犯罪啦!好好笑的事情!來!我給你!我給你講一個問題!"},{"start":12779.654,"end":12800.679,"text":"他說去什麼江南五月然後一萬五太便宜里長好幾個里長拿給他你看網路有一萬一的有九千的就只有拿這個說我的團費太低我可能接受資助然後把剩下的錢來支持在司法這個樣子啦支持國民黨的候選人這個邏輯是這樣邏輯這個不是政治方案什麼才是政治方案"},{"start":12806.776,"end":12819.392,"text":"這個赤裸裸的介入政治太深介入選舉太深我最近為什麼今天我為什麼今天一定要來法務部這裡來跟你質詢我最近就一直接到里長跟我這樣講"},{"start":12820.609,"end":12841.237,"text":"他們做很多事情不能做就是卡在這裡我會要求他們盡快結案你沒事就趕快給他結案而且而且我再最後一句話你看那個當初看到統促黨的何建華他還拿了勞工的錢起訴起訴起訴法欸判無罪啊或者這個案子還要你們要上訴嗎你們還要不要上訴他講到剛剛來判斷他他決定沒有啊我不曉得"},{"start":12851.192,"end":12871.734,"text":"如果委員要知道我來幫忙了解我沒有要知道這個事情我比較關心是我們那些里長二十幾個里長現在吊在辦公室這個我可以要求他盡快整個道地這個道地就是政治辦案我覺得很悲哀啊蔡清祥部長你的如果你無法領之後沒有辦法再續任"},{"start":12873.868,"end":12892.892,"text":"我跟你講你的名字人家就掛在那裡就是在2024的大選之前強力介入不會啦去約談里長沒有這回事就已經有啦全國都有那也不是我下令的啊我也不可能這樣下令啊不管怎麼樣這個章送你身上這個這個你看喔我們檢察官請問你現在定罪率多高上訴以後"},{"start":12900.341,"end":12900.922,"text":"違反國家機密三成左右"},{"start":12920.938,"end":12943.409,"text":"你檢察官就亂起訴啊!然後你那個事,一起訴這個人就垮了一半耶!真的,檢察官的起訴要很慎重,定罪率很高!日本的檢察官起訴定罪率99.9%!99.9%!但是我們在國安的部分,起訴的定罪率非常的低!"},{"start":12944.83,"end":12945.03,"text":"那那個翁偉"},{"start":12986.039,"end":12987.8,"text":"吳宗憲委員蔡部長周局長"},{"start":13000.572,"end":13006.495,"text":"財務部長 您剛剛有提到違反偵查不公開 辦法第8條有些例外我想請問一下 我們現在先看第一個個案"},{"start":13023.108,"end":13052.115,"text":"陳忠彥的案子陳忠彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的"},{"start":13053.712,"end":13082.914,"text":"好 那我們先跳回剛剛上一章好了來 我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢 我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清"},{"start":13083.755,"end":13111.202,"text":"地檢署他不會去對當事人澄清但是我們看到的第8條的這個第一項第7款他其實是說到對於這些被害人或當事人有澄清的必要的時候其實他是可以做不公開的一個例外但是呢我看到的地檢署總是在說自己沒有不對啦那是不是在檢方的邏輯裡面其實當事人的名譽是沒有那麼重要部長"},{"start":13113.336,"end":13113.496,"text":"地檢署對於"},{"start":13129.369,"end":13152.927,"text":"新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看"},{"start":13154.348,"end":13168.761,"text":"我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣"},{"start":13170.223,"end":13185.74,"text":"是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明"},{"start":13188.381,"end":13213.446,"text":"我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即"},{"start":13216.167,"end":13230.182,"text":"那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個"},{"start":13231.621,"end":13256.135,"text":"媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分"},{"start":13257.148,"end":13273.291,"text":"他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共有30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣"},{"start":13274.532,"end":13301.825,"text":"檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去"},{"start":13302.785,"end":13302.925,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":13322.474,"end":13345.96,"text":"任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":13347.342,"end":13371.779,"text":"我會要求不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了112年4月法務部調查局也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任下一位"},{"start":13372.74,"end":13390.956,"text":"都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃塵那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解"},{"start":13394.02,"end":13419.203,"text":"這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司耀委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說"},{"start":13421.648,"end":13429.876,"text":"為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工"},{"start":13431.363,"end":13459.252,"text":"我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自罪條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個"},{"start":13460.632,"end":13489.763,"text":"任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望"},{"start":13490.956,"end":13509.035,"text":"部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩露出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也"},{"start":13510.316,"end":13535.247,"text":"當過警察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法啦所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林芝廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來"},{"start":13537.874,"end":13542.704,"text":"馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來"},{"start":13544.008,"end":13569.169,"text":"今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個"},{"start":13572.284,"end":13594.384,"text":"依然地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體"},{"start":13595.552,"end":13622.398,"text":"指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好 那我們再"},{"start":13624.724,"end":13633.458,"text":"我們再往下看其實我想要偵查人員的思維發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後"},{"start":13635.598,"end":13656.941,"text":"真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷那他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是"},{"start":13657.862,"end":13659.503,"text":"現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得"},{"start":13678.919,"end":13702.754,"text":"呃 這個 局長 州長 也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁 這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人 國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢 我們是 我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個"},{"start":13704.235,"end":13728.909,"text":"他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法"},{"start":13730.401,"end":13748.444,"text":"好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是"},{"start":13749.795,"end":13775.596,"text":"今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是"},{"start":13776.783,"end":13777.003,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13804.64,"end":13822.854,"text":"這些案子搞到最後就是為了變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法這都會有影響然後因為我國總是沒有我國不像歐洲有遺忘權"},{"start":13824.929,"end":13843.756,"text":"那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法抹滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去"},{"start":13844.236,"end":13844.676,"text":"最後我想周局長"},{"start":13866.205,"end":13882.939,"text":"剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個警察高層麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面"},{"start":13885.177,"end":13907.65,"text":"第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬"},{"start":13908.956,"end":13915.504,"text":"那第一個 法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":13916.843,"end":13938.976,"text":"你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚"},{"start":13940.017,"end":13957.069,"text":"只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候"},{"start":13958.598,"end":13980.266,"text":"不要每一次發生事情警方高層都第一個跳出來先罵警察你先釐清嘛如果是後來手銬外露你要處分我絕對贊成但是前階段上銬到底有沒有違反比例原則真的是要弄清楚之後再下定論好不好我想說這樣因為畢竟警方我看也是公務員裡面算是因公殉職"},{"start":13981.286,"end":13982.407,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請法務部長好 麻煩請部長"},{"start":14015.58,"end":14030.782,"text":"部長,現在接近520,剛剛大家討論這麼多有關於司法的問題,包含偵查不公開,包含檢察官有沒有隨便的去傳票或者是約談等等。"},{"start":14032.247,"end":14050.228,"text":"我記得蔡總統她當時上任的時候她得到最大的掌聲就是當時她說要司法改革那個時候她的這一部分滿意度最高可是到現在為止司法改革完全落空"},{"start":14051.169,"end":14065.388,"text":"而根據我想到了這個週年的時候應該又會有一些重要的民調會出來現在很多的民調都顯示民眾對於司法改革的不滿意度很多都超過50%"},{"start":14067.697,"end":14093.394,"text":"就是我們剛才在講了這麼多的這些問題我覺得剛才我聽到我們主席我們的昭偉因為他自己當過檢察官他講他那個經歷想想看我們可能對政治人物我也常常被告我們政治人物心臟比較大顆然後反正就是你竟然從事人事一個公眾人物對於很多一般的小市民來說"},{"start":14094.616,"end":14119.127,"text":"他今天不要說他上法庭了他去那個檢察官約談他一次都是何等重大的事情這我剛叫呼應剛才那個賴志寶委員所提的你不要以為這些里長這些里長事上當他們被那個檢察官約談的時候真的都感覺手軟然後他們的家人就到處打電話去打聽說怎麼回事怎麼辦人會不會回來"},{"start":14122.856,"end":14138.448,"text":"所以今天我們如果動輒以一些帶風向也好或者真的是在選舉期間就大動干戈的去做這些調查我覺得這都是嚴重的傷害司法形象"},{"start":14139.656,"end":14156.25,"text":"接下來我要講一個案例喔就最近也有一些新聞報導我們都很痛恨詐騙集團但是呢我們也知道很多詐騙集團因為呢他資金雄厚所以呢他有很多的律師當他的狗頭軍師"},{"start":14158.192,"end":14185.964,"text":"所以現在呢有一個案子就是這些律師就是他們這些當這些他的集團軍師的律師分別都被收押因為他們認為在集團內他們的組織分工都很細膩而且他們還指導這個車手怎麼樣去面對這些檢警的偵查因為他們很熟然後呢還用telegram因為他知道這個比較不容易被偵查到"},{"start":14186.664,"end":14207.415,"text":"然後把這些因為他派出去這些律師幫車手去做辯護然後再把這些訊息傳回給這個這些詐騙集團讓詐騙集團知道怎麼樣去躲過檢調的這些偵查甚至直接先跑掉你可以看一下這個案例齁其中有一個"},{"start":14211.377,"end":14236.085,"text":"叫做鄭宏威律師還有黃根宏律師這兩個律師都是在詐騙集團當報馬仔他們用一些他們熟悉的或是他的學弟這些什麼有會計師執照啦或者當這個詐騙集團的帳房還甚至幫他洗錢用虛擬貨幣洗錢另外一方面呢他也找一些律師去幫這些詐騙集團的車手去"},{"start":14240.586,"end":14240.786,"text":"李明潔、楊雅涵、賴季昌"},{"start":14259.824,"end":14274.12,"text":"我現在要求的是這些律師知法犯法我們在打詐我們一邊打詐不管我們司法機關怎麼加強怎麼樣修法可是這些律師他也是很懂法的啊"},{"start":14274.801,"end":14296.228,"text":"他知道還會去做這些所有的在司法這些規避的技巧所以我在這邊具體的要求我們必須要詳查還有沒有其他涉案律師真的只有這幾位律師嗎我現在封文的不是只有這幾位律師喔他們甚至也是集團型的還有"},{"start":14297.148,"end":14319.248,"text":"他們還沒有涉及其他的詐騙案只有這個詐騙案嗎?因為他們的詐騙案事實上是來自好像不同縣市的他們是跨縣市在做的所以他們就是一個犯罪集團這些律師就是犯罪集團當然,他們這些律師一定要被撤照律師公會一定要把他吊下牌照"},{"start":14320.168,"end":14343.276,"text":"可是我覺得要加重他們處分因為他們知法犯法另外我也在這邊直接的要求應該比照IMB的這個案子把主謀的財產相關的房子土地賬戶現金在偵查期間應該予以扣押否則這些詐騙因為他是跨好幾個詐騙集團以後這些人會求訴無門"},{"start":14346.997,"end":14370.838,"text":"因為他現在面對的不是只有詐騙集團而已他面對還是這些整個強大的律師團所以部長可不可以請法務部特別針對這個案子因為這個涉案的不是一般的詐騙集團而是一群律師可不可以確切的我剛講說繼續的追查還有扣押他們的財產"},{"start":14372.158,"end":14397.24,"text":"謝謝委員的指教如果它是一個集團性的犯罪我們一定會嚴辦他們確實集團性是 我們還會再往下追下去尤其這律師是知法犯法更應該要嚴懲沒有錯啊律師應該是協助我們來打詐他現在不是啊協助詐騙集團反打詐所以才我們現在詐騙集團才會這麼多所以這個案子我覺得不容小續所以我也請法務部"},{"start":14398.541,"end":14398.981,"text":"蘇曉慧委員林德福委員鄭天才委員"},{"start":14426.648,"end":14431.452,"text":"蘇清泉委員謝一鳳委員徐欣盈委員何欣淳委員"},{"start":14454.83,"end":14476.65,"text":"鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員徐巧欣委員徐巧欣委員徐巧欣委員以上其他委員都沒有到場我們今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢"},{"start":14478.294,"end":14480.377,"text":"本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝各位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}