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長不太知道的情況之下回答我,有沒有?對,所以是不是當時我所舉證的都是事實?你已經浪費了我一分多鐘,有沒有?部長,你要不要直接跟我道歉?"},{"start":104.941,"end":109.442,"text":"有那一個時空背景但是發現你們去請示其他部會說這樣子不適宜所以你們現在修整法條對不對跟全國百姓講一下你們是不是引用錯誤"},{"start":130.99,"end":159.472,"text":"是就是不是就不是嘛對我們現在就是這件事情我發生了以後我們社交組檢討就是說我那個55條法條引用事實上是不正確的那我們現在就開始用27條我不是說要讓你丟臉只是說你第一時間回答委員的東西是錯誤的你想要打臉我但事實上你們內部去檢討以後發現自己有錯趕快改進但是你們開記者會去打臉委員對每個委員來說公平嗎你們是不是應該加以去佐證"},{"start":160.871,"end":189.443,"text":"所以部長我再講一次進出口輸出役專案引用錯誤法條以及人事案你是不是應該跟全民道歉我想我們在10號時可以說是在發生事件以後非常緊急來這是有關於人民生命跟醫療用品所以你引用錯誤法條導致要害基金不賠所以要打消保法所以你要去逛百貨公司要記得累積點數然後還可以滿千送百"},{"start":190.752,"end":208.501,"text":"這就是錯誤所以我一直在講我也一心一意啊我擔心你做錯了然後讓我們要害經濟部賠償最後受害的是人民啊所以你的目的良善我的目的就不良善還是你要感受一下目的良善所以是不是有錯就更正"},{"start":216.477,"end":241.029,"text":"因為這是整個過程那也是整個過程的一個用最適當的一個沒關係後續我還有很多的料沒關係我們繼續來竟然看不出你的誠意看不出你願意改正我想全民都在看那部長最近勞動部一個市場的霸凌事件全國震驚現在各個立委都收到了這封信我們一一看一下"},{"start":241.829,"end":267.217,"text":"就是集管署的組長霸凌屬下的一個事件請問現在調查結果是如何我們昨天啟動調查一個禮拜之內會查清楚究責相關的流程到底要怎麼做誰要負責調查會不會立場偏薄我告訴你昨天已經一個勞動部他調查出來的結果大家全民能夠接受嗎他開的記者會全民能夠接受嗎"},{"start":268.197,"end":286.004,"text":"不要再有立場偏頗不要再為自己找藉口內部的調查全民都失望這就是為什麼我們需要聽證權為什麼要國會改革讓我們來調查才能夠找出事實而不是你們的內部調查全民都已經不相信了可是現在呢"},{"start":286.764,"end":298.747,"text":"又有這樣子的一個土皇帝就在你們衛福部集管署昨天我在這邊也一直講各個部會請注意把你們內部有相關案例都應該如實的找出來"},{"start":300.407,"end":324.999,"text":"昨天說兩個禮拜今天變一個禮拜我現在要通知你立場有沒有偏頗誰要來調查你要不要講清楚說明白絕對不偏頗我請事由機關署機關署委員好那我們現在是有找兩位外部的專家就是一個是法律專家一個是心理諮商的專家另外我們署內有兩個委員但是都跟這位組長不熟會組成委員會那會"},{"start":326.36,"end":346.997,"text":"主要就是說我們會先今天開始其實我們已經有一個匿名的問卷給這個我們的主員來同仁來填那根據那個問卷收來之後我們會去請這個委員來決定要來面談的一個同仁那這個部會也會找那個之前有離職的一個同仁來做詢問以上"},{"start":347.557,"end":364.474,"text":"我想事情已經發生已經有潛力了今天他開記者會不開還好一開全民爆炸相信你們應該有智慧不要重蹈覆轍最後我要提醒你中興大學申請了複設醫院案共499床你支不支持部長"},{"start":365.615,"end":391.052,"text":"我想這個都要牽涉到整個醫療資源的一個評估台中衛生局已經函送到衛福部審議我在10月17號也有關心此案將文轉給了衛福部你曉不曉得這個狀況目前教育部還沒回溫因為他是教育部體系的學校所以會有雙重主管我想雙重主管的問題教育部我會再來今天難得來到衛福部我希望部長你可以支持"},{"start":391.96,"end":415.475,"text":"在臺中這樣子醫療量能夠提升這是我們臺中市民還有民意代表該做的這部分麻煩你可以嗎我想我們會非常客觀的來評估來協助整個臺中的一個醫療資源能夠充分好最後我想波波醫生最近很多的報導都指出有這樣子的900個波波醫生我想請問你你的管控要如何"},{"start":416.115,"end":421.959,"text":"你知道他們都在哪裡執業嗎?這個部分你們有登記嗎?有醫事人員的系統可以追查到醫事登錄的一個職業場所嗎?有嗎?布博醫生報載指出有900個布博醫生"},{"start":439.685,"end":443.728,"text":"所以你有沒有相關的這些系統能夠追蹤這些人的醫事登錄職業場所有沒有"},{"start":468.097,"end":486.152,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":486.292,"end":490.933,"text":"臺中市民有知的權利就醫的選擇權所以我想請問部長在臺中地區有哪幾家醫療院所是有撥撥醫師牙醫師職業看診你可以告訴我們嗎這我們手頭上應該沒有這種資料"},{"start":510.276,"end":536.627,"text":"所以就是沒有掌握嗎?你要就是承認你跟全民承認你沒有這樣的資料你無法掌握嗎?我們是說好第一個就是醫師的考試一定要有執照然後他的繼續的教育訓練包括他的專科醫師的訓練還有他執業以後的繼續教育我想時間有限喔我會去追蹤這些案子我也跟你告訴我們今天所講的這三個案子麻煩你後續有相關的資料請給我們知道一下好的好的是好謝謝"},{"start":540.213,"end":541.561,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（13時）對不起，我已經準備好了，不好意思。請衛福部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：食藥署署長一起，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，署長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：來，署長，昨天我們談了很多。部長，對於我生理食鹽水進口專案錯誤的法條引用，還有我點出了三項人事案有問題，你們在第一時間開記者會要打臉我，然後現在呢？你已經查清楚了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有要打臉，我們只是說明清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：查清楚了沒？你有沒有引用錯誤法條？"],["邱部長泰源：原來引用的法條可能不是那麼周全，經過討論……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不是那麼周全，所以你現在有私底下在修其他的法條，希望能夠周全，對不對？對不對？對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在用十七之二，我跟委員也已經報告過了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你引用錯誤法條，在第一時間開記者會打臉我，你要不要跟我道歉？"],["邱部長泰源：我們沒有開記者會跟你……"],["羅委員廷瑋：食藥署署長，有沒有開記者會？以及第三項人事案，你們現在私底下請他走人，因為他是哲學系，這個部分查清楚了沒？回答。"],["邱部長泰源：請署長先回答一下。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，昨天我跟……因為每次……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你是不是有提供錯誤資訊給部長，讓部長不太知道的情況之下回答我，有沒有？"],["莊署長聲宏：沒有，報告委員，是當時我們其實還在查這件事情的時候。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以是不是當時我所舉證的都是事實？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，那個20……因為我昨天我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你已經浪費了我一分多鐘，有沒有？部長，你要不要直接跟我道歉？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，因為那個時候是我們還在收集資訊的時候，而且我有跟委員報告，我們當時最早引用第五十五條的原因是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有那一個時空背景，但是發現你們去請示了其他的部會說這樣子不適宜，所以你們現在在修整法條，對不對？"],["莊署長聲宏：對，沒錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：跟全國百姓講一下，你們是不是引用錯誤？是就是，不是就不是嘛。"],["莊署長聲宏：對，我們現在就是，這件事情發生了以後，我們食藥署檢討，我們引用法條第五十五條事實上是不正確的，我們現在就開始用第二十七之二條……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我不是要讓你丟臉，只是你第一時間回答委員的東西是錯誤的，你想要打臉我，但事實上你們內部去檢討以後發現，自己有錯趕快改進，但是你們開記者會去打臉委員，對每個委員來說公平嘛？你們是不是應該加以去佐證？所以，部長，我再講一次，進口輸液專案引用錯誤法條以及人事案，你是不是應該跟全民道歉？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們食藥署可以說在發生事件以後，非常緊急來……這是有關於人民生命跟醫療用品，所以當初是要……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你引用錯誤法條導致藥害基金不賠，所以要打消保法，所以你要去逛百貨公司，要記得累積點數，然後還可以滿千送百？這就是錯誤。所以我一直在講……"],["邱部長泰源：我們真的是一心一意想要趕快解決這樣的問題……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我也一心一意啊！我擔心你做錯了，然後讓我們藥害基金不賠償，最後受害的是人民啊。所以你的目的良善，我的目的就不良善？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有、沒有、沒有，你……"],["羅委員廷瑋：還是你要感受一下「目的良善」？"],["邱部長泰源：我相信，我是完全相信委員是目的良善的想要……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以是不是有錯就更正？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這是整個過程啦，那也是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：看起來你要跟我拖到最後30秒。"],["邱部長泰源：整個過程用最適當的一個條文……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，後續我還有很多的料，沒關係，我們繼續來，既然看不出你的誠意，看不出你願意改正，我想全民都在看……"],["邱部長泰源：我們已經改正用更好的方式來處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長。最近勞動部一個職場霸凌的事件，全國震驚，現在各個立委都收到了這封信，我們看一下PPT，就是疾管署的組長霸凌屬下的一個事件，請問現在調查的結果是如何？"],["邱部長泰源：我們昨天啟動調查，一個禮拜之內會查清楚、究責。"],["羅委員廷瑋：相關的流程到底要怎麼做，誰要負責調查，會不會立場偏頗？我告訴你，昨天已經一個勞動部，他調查出來的結果，全民能夠接受嗎？他開的記者會，全民能夠接受嗎？不要再有立場偏頗，不要再為自己找藉口，內部的調查全民都失望，這就是為什麼我們需要聽證權。為什麼要有國會改革？讓我們來調查才能夠找出事實，而不是你們的內部調查，全民都已經不相信了。可是現在又有這樣子的一個土皇帝，就在你們衛福部疾管署，昨天我在這邊也一直講，各個部會請注意，你們內部有相關案例都應該如實的找出來，昨天說兩個禮拜，今天變一個禮拜，我現在要通知你，立場有沒有偏頗，誰要來調查，你要不要講清楚說明白？"],["邱部長泰源：絕對不偏頗，我請疾管署說明。"],["莊署長人祥：委員好。我們現在有找兩位外部的專家，其中一個是法律專家，一個是心理諮商的專家，另外我們署內也有兩個委員，但是都跟這位組長不熟，會組成委員會，主要就是說我們會先……今天開始其實我們已經有一個匿名的問卷給我們的同仁來填寫，問卷收回來之後，我們會請委員來決定要來面談的同仁，這個部分也會找之前離職的同仁來詢問。以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想事情已經發生，已經有前例了，今天他開記者會，不開還好，一開全民爆炸，相信你們應該有智慧不要重蹈覆轍。最後我要提醒你，中興大學申請了附設醫院案，共499床，你支不支持？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個都要牽涉到整個醫療資源的評估，那……"],["羅委員廷瑋：臺中衛生局已經函送到衛福部審議了，我在10月17號也有關心此案，將文轉給了衛福部，你曉不曉得這個狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：請醫事司說明。"],["劉司長越萍：目前教育部還沒回文，因為它是教育部體系的學校，所以會有雙重主管。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想雙重主管的問題，教育部我會再來問，今天難得衛福部來列席，我希望部長可以支持，讓臺中的醫療量能能夠提升，這是我們臺中市民還有我們民意代表該做的，這個部分麻煩你，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：了解，我想我們會非常客觀的評估，協助整個臺中的醫療資源能夠充分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。最後，關於波波醫生，最近很多報導都指出有這樣子的900個波波醫生，我想請問你要如何管控？你知道他們都在哪裡執業嗎？這部分你們有登記嗎？有醫事人員的系統可以追查到醫師登錄的執業場所嗎？有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個委員所垂詢的這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：波波醫生。"],["邱部長泰源：說900個是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：報載指出有900個波波醫生。"],["邱部長泰源：現在在等那個……等牙醫嘛？"],["劉司長越萍：不是、不是、不是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不只是牙醫，波波醫生。對不起，部長……"],["邱部長泰源：喔，你說那個名單喔？"],["羅委員廷瑋：您沒有在狀況內，報刊登載得這麼大，900個波波醫生，網路都在討論。"],["邱部長泰源：OK、OK，我知道，900個那個名單啦。我想我們衛福部就是認執照嘛，你就是要有執照才能執業……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你有沒有相關的系統能夠追蹤這些人的醫事登錄、執業場所，有沒有？民眾想要知道的是這個。"],["邱部長泰源：如果有名字的話，你說。"],["劉司長越萍：委員，我補充一下。只要是中華民國合格的醫師，我們有醫事管理系統會知道他在哪裡執業，可是學歷這件事情並不在我們登錄系統裡面。以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想名單牽涉到個資，我們都尊重，但是，部長，要怎麼增加民眾的信任度，這才是本席真正在乎的，臺中市民有知的權利，有就醫的選擇權。所以我想請問部長，在臺中地區有哪幾家醫療院所有波波醫師、牙醫師執業看診，你可以告訴我們嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們手頭上應該沒有這種資料。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以就是沒有掌握嘛。那你就承認，你跟全民承認你沒有這樣的資料，你無法掌握嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：我們是守好第一個就是醫師的考試，一定要有執照，然後他的繼續教育訓練，包括專科醫師的訓練，還有他執業以後的繼續教育，這是我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想時間有限，我會去追蹤這些案子，我也要告訴你，我們今天所講的這三個案子，麻煩你，後續有相關的資料，請給我們指導一下。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，好的。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。接續我們請張雅琳委員質詢。","肚子餓的後面那邊可以先吃，沒關係，要善待自己。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}