{"error":false,"id":["157365"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157365,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157365","日期":"2024-11-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-36-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-21T13:16:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-21T13:30:41+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752486989a5a8a73ad7ed5a0382e2f733d91d494314c3fac5e6a478bf4b7292ce505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"13:16:02 - 13:30:41","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.26346875,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.89784375,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.947843750000004,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.51284375,"end":68.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.81346875,"end":70.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.41659375,"end":77.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.34784375000001,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.87909375000001,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.34284375,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.55784375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.32034375,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.27784375,"end":100.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.34409375000001,"end":111.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.87034375,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.36784375,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.78971875,"end":112.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.19034375000001,"end":115.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.52346875,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.98471875,"end":143.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.59096875,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.86471875,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.85596875000002,"end":160.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.75409375,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.35659375,"end":157.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.67721875,"end":157.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.84159375000002,"end":160.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.74846875,"end":160.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.17034375,"end":167.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.12284375000002,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.79659375,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.69471875000002,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.05721875,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.28409375,"end":190.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.53284375,"end":191.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.64659375000002,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.73909375000002,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.90346875,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.67096875000001,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.46284375000002,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.79159375,"end":210.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.22159375,"end":211.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.60534375,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.26721875,"end":218.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.61284375000002,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.04659375000003,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.93159375000002,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.16346875000002,"end":242.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.05221875,"end":248.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.76846875,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.98346875000001,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.32034375,"end":255.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.46221875000003,"end":265.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.35221875,"end":272.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.78159375,"end":281.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.29909375,"end":286.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.55159375,"end":287.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.86784375,"end":288.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.40784375000004,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.42471875,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.44159375000004,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.18409375000005,"end":289.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.44471875,"end":295.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.51221875000005,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.96784375000004,"end":342.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.75971875000005,"end":305.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.42471875,"end":315.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.38971875000004,"end":323.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.62846875,"end":336.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.23096875000005,"end":340.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.32784375,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.16284375000004,"end":348.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.75284375,"end":351.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.95909375,"end":358.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.66284375000004,"end":366.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.84284375000004,"end":367.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.85971875,"end":367.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.10846875000004,"end":379.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.17909375000005,"end":375.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.59596875,"end":383.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.83159375,"end":390.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.78846875000005,"end":391.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.18909375000004,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.25159375000004,"end":397.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.87159375000005,"end":398.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.90534375000004,"end":399.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.61409375000005,"end":399.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.80784375,"end":404.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.77784375000005,"end":409.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.97534375000004,"end":430.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.67096875000004,"end":414.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.91909375,"end":418.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.64721875000004,"end":432.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.41471875,"end":435.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.44846875,"end":436.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.08909375,"end":438.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.72596875000005,"end":442.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.51034375,"end":442.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.99971875000006,"end":443.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.06721875000005,"end":445.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.66159375,"end":448.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.39534375000005,"end":453.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.00221875000005,"end":458.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.86221875,"end":479.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.52971875000003,"end":484.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.52471875000003,"end":504.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.12159375000005,"end":501.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.57659375000003,"end":509.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.87534375,"end":510.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.87096875000003,"end":522.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":521.2490937499999,"end":524.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.54409375,"end":531.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.0109687500001,"end":534.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.49471875,"end":543.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.3172187499999,"end":545.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.1440937500001,"end":551.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.0122187500001,"end":558.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.2222187500001,"end":560.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.63096875,"end":564.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.9890937499999,"end":565.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.13659375,"end":567.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.26721875,"end":576.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.73409375,"end":577.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.23596875,"end":580.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.5265937500001,"end":582.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.91034375,"end":583.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.32784375,"end":584.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.01534375,"end":587.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.92221875,"end":589.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.39034375,"end":592.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.57971875,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.0772187499999,"end":596.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.1528437500001,"end":600.8147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.6415937500001,"end":605.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.0209687500001,"end":605.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.6240937499999,"end":608.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.72909375,"end":612.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.1928437500001,"end":612.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.6440937500001,"end":612.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.96471875,"end":613.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.0322187500001,"end":614.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.54659375,"end":623.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.0859687500001,"end":620.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.1740937500001,"end":629.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.45159375,"end":634.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.0247187500001,"end":640.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.07534375,"end":634.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.6059687500001,"end":644.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.1453437499999,"end":645.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.01846875,"end":648.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.3515937500001,"end":648.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.3303437500001,"end":651.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.89096875,"end":654.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.91596875,"end":656.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.10971875,"end":661.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.47596875,"end":665.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.3572187500001,"end":670.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.79534375,"end":678.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.79409375,"end":689.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.31971875,"end":694.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.3484687499999,"end":703.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.3134687500001,"end":704.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.46846875,"end":714.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.66596875,"end":720.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.7453437500001,"end":723.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.31846875,"end":726.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.9890937499999,"end":727.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.40659375,"end":730.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.97159375,"end":735.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.9328437500001,"end":739.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.6115937500001,"end":740.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.1684687500001,"end":750.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.98159375,"end":749.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.97284375,"end":751.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.6940937500001,"end":752.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.9765937500001,"end":755.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.8959687500001,"end":756.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.65096875,"end":762.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.2703437499999,"end":763.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.6709687500002,"end":766.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.8647187500001,"end":768.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.9740937500001,"end":773.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.4922187500001,"end":778.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.4409687500001,"end":781.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.6472187500001,"end":784.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.43596875,"end":783.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.45284375,"end":783.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.97596875,"end":784.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.2078437499999,"end":786.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.08096875,"end":800.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.13784375,"end":806.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.43221875,"end":809.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.96346875,"end":814.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":814.51971875,"end":815.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.0890937500001,"end":816.4265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.78096875,"end":821.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.8772187500001,"end":824.8640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.45471875,"end":840.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":841.2665937500001,"end":854.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.87221875,"end":866.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":866.8828437500001,"end":874.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":875.0503437500001,"end":876.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":876.6028437500001,"end":877.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":878.9990937500002,"end":880.14659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.46,"end":39.609,"text":"主席我們先請法務部麻煩部長委員好部長好我想今天這個我們主席今天列這樣子的專案報告的主題那我也想說利用這個機會因為我們這個打詐四法上路從7月開始上路到現在一段時間也在這個利用這個機會來檢視"},{"start":41.96,"end":52.371,"text":"目前這個打詐四法新的打詐四法施行之後我們的這個成效我這個我根據我們內政部警政署的這個刑事警察局的統計數據我這個資料是來自刑事警察局的統計數據"},{"start":57.15,"end":66.513,"text":"我們從這個111年的這個新世代打擊詐欺策略行動1.0版本推出到112年到1.5版本到113年2.0版本那這個按照這個歷年的數據來看從103年到112年我們確實這個在這個打擊詐欺的部分我們這個破獲率"},{"start":87.162,"end":109.819,"text":"從49.53現在逐漸提升到90.43這是破獲率這個是破獲率的提升還是案件數的增加這部分是不是部長能夠說明一下我想這部分這個是不是破獲率是不是可以請警政署來因為這個查獲的局長"},{"start":115.106,"end":130.532,"text":"署長這個破例就是說案件的發生之後我們去做一個一個查體大案目前為止就是剛剛委員我們從這個打詐儀表版我是從8月29號公佈之後那個"},{"start":134.073,"end":160.552,"text":"我們的這個統計的方式不一樣所以這個詐欺的案件的發生跟金額數是比去年是增加的事實上案件數也是節節攀升了對 案件數是節節攀升的那因為是我們通貨率也有所提高吧對對對對對但是事實上案件數的發生案件數是提升的相當進步對 提升也是提升的"},{"start":161.872,"end":186.648,"text":"這部分我們署長請回還是跟部長來討論這個當然我們今天討論的主題焦點設定在這個移工跟青少年那是就移工的這個部分我想在討論的過程中我們要比較謹慎因為這也避免說在這個討論過程中把移工標籤化這個"},{"start":189.406,"end":217.793,"text":"所以事實上以我個人的了解當然現在目前青少年跟移工他們做車手做提供人頭賬戶的狀況是蠻嚴重的但是事實上以我的了解就移工的部分而言他們遭到詐騙的他們成為詐騙集團的受害者的比率"},{"start":218.737,"end":234.21,"text":"也非常高,比本土還要高對不對,這個部分,部長瞭解嗎?那個事實上這個移工齁,因為這個是來台灣來做工作齁,那我想這部分因為"},{"start":234.986,"end":248.076,"text":"有它的特殊性所以詐團往往會利用這些移工來做一個車手或者購買那個人口對但是按照NGO團體的調查發現這個事實上這些移工他們本身"},{"start":250.157,"end":262.977,"text":"很多部分他們更容易淪為詐騙集團的受害者因為他們防詐意識比較薄弱來這裡防詐意識比較薄弱再加上人在他鄉很多這個"},{"start":266.414,"end":281.409,"text":"成為淪為這個詐騙集團的目標也是狀況也是很清楚但我們比較關心的所以我們應該要關注的是說現在目前這個有關移工的這些涉入犯罪的這些"},{"start":282.869,"end":308.889,"text":"結構裡面是不是有逐漸發展出組織化的狀況的確是有那最近我們在有沒有這個人力仲介集團或者是像這個人蛇集團他們有介入這樣子的組織化的東西這個我們會再注意但是的確是有那個委員有關心就是新北地檢最近有指揮偵破了一件菲律賓移工組成的車手集團車手集團有車手集團那這些外籍移工提供金融商務作為"},{"start":310.29,"end":335.206,"text":"這些詐團的這些的洗錢的這些人頭詐騙兼車手那也接受這些利用這個通訊軟體來接受詐團的一個指示來取款那這部分我們會去溯源才去往上去追到目前來講的話當然移工的那個車手的一個集團跟那個這部分我們目前是有好這個部分"},{"start":335.846,"end":345.874,"text":"那我們會注意就是委員關心的這部分我們會往前我們會跟警察、這司法局長再來說這個部分一方面我們要避免標籤化啦避免大家認為說這個對於這個"},{"start":348.854,"end":367.044,"text":"移工的標籤跟歧視但是另外一方面我們真正要關心的是他們有沒有這個往組織化犯罪的這個方向如果有的話我們會用再重點再以組織犯罪的來做一個除了那個加重詐欺以外那有組織犯罪的做一個人的處理"},{"start":368.377,"end":391.076,"text":"這個部長你也講過一句話啦我個人認為也真的有道理啦你說認為說人頭賬戶是詐欺集團的命脈啦你認為說要打擊這個詐欺集團就是人頭賬戶是最大的最關鍵的他們的靈魂命脈那這個部分我想現在有關這個青少年跟這個這個移工齁"},{"start":392.244,"end":399.248,"text":"他們大概涉入這個詐欺犯罪大概最重要的兩個角色一個是車手那另外一個就是提供人頭帳戶大概是這兩個那這兩個我們現在這個"},{"start":404.861,"end":432.185,"text":"自從我們這個洗錢防治法通過之後施行之後我們有一個有一個過去是第14條是第一項現在是在第21條就是不正使用存款賬戶罪不正使用存款賬戶罪這一條從這一條立法之後這個我們依依這一條這個不正賬戶使用罪來這個這個論罪的比例有多高"},{"start":433.979,"end":452.992,"text":"這部分我們再回去統計因為我們手上沒這些資料你們回去統計啦齁因為現在目前這個過去齁有關這個這個相關的這些司法案件齁用這個詐欺幫助犯"},{"start":454.059,"end":477.035,"text":"或者是來論罪或者是用一般洗錢罪來論罪跟不正使用帳戶罪過去在裁判上面它一直有輕重失衡的問題就是因為法條進合的關係它有輕重失衡的問題尤其是詐欺幫助犯"},{"start":480.575,"end":508.754,"text":"要有這個雙重的故意所以在這個雙重故意的認定上面你要常常你如果這個在過去我們最高法院曾經做過這個刑事大法庭曾經做過一個裁定做過裁定把這個這個行為人他的這個是否成立洗錢防治法那時候是第14條第一項他曾經做過這樣的裁定那現在這個這個打詐刑事法這個施行之後"},{"start":511.289,"end":533.415,"text":"現行實務在法條競合上有沒有產生歧義?」這個部分可能要做重新再做解釋這部分請部長這法條條4是有改掉了那我們會再注意接下來我是請金管會我們今天金管會是銀行局部長請回"},{"start":542.984,"end":552.494,"text":"委員好我們今天是副局長我們現在在談人頭帳戶我這邊就要關心一個目前有關警示帳戶的機制的問題有關警示帳戶機制的檢討"},{"start":566.49,"end":573.013,"text":"這個這個我想副局長應該很清楚有關這個目前這個警示帳戶的問題有的說為了3000塊錢的網購爭議結果他平常的這幾百萬的這個帳戶他被列為警示帳戶這整個凍結起來這個狀況這個我們"},{"start":586.055,"end":614.231,"text":"金管會曾經表示這個有約談這個警示帳戶比較多的前五家銀行那定期追蹤要求他們每季這個警示帳戶數是不是有下降這個部分你能不能做一下說明對我們都有定期找這個每季的那有沒有下降在你們講的前五名前五家銀行有沒有下降前五名應該有下降的也有可能也有上升的有"},{"start":615.912,"end":634.583,"text":"什麼樣的狀況你能不能跟我說明一下你這樣講就是說有的有下降有的沒下降這我當然知道你能不能說明一下具體的因為每一個時段可能情況不太一樣就比如說去年有一家合併案那他的那個相關的案件就會比較多一點現在這個警示帳戶我這邊統計是從110年到113年這個已經從64000戶現在到13萬"},{"start":645.225,"end":664.046,"text":"十三萬四千三百五十個警示帳戶這個成長是相當驚人的超過一倍那這些警示帳戶有的是來自警政署的通報有的是來自這個法務部他們有不同的這個"},{"start":666.394,"end":689.462,"text":"他們有不同的就如果說你帳戶被被被列入警示帳號之後這個被被列入警示帳號的帳戶他要怎麼他要怎麼救濟他就變成有不同的不同的救濟方式這部分我們如果金管會這個沒有沒有辦法在這個警示帳戶的這個這個我們比較多的這個這個前五你們自己這是你們自己講的你說就就這個前五家銀行你們要去進行"},{"start":690.582,"end":704.385,"text":"專案列管,列入專案列管對象,定期追蹤改善情況,觀察銀行每季警示帳戶是否下降。」這是你們自己講的,我現在就是問你們說,你們所講的這些話,你們現在的成果是怎麼樣?這個部分是不是容我們會後再提供相關的報告給委員?"},{"start":715.674,"end":734.996,"text":"好啦 讓你們惠後提供了但這個東西因為你們這樣講社會上面大家在關心警示這個現在被列入警視帳戶它確實會造成一些確實有造成一些困擾啦就是你有的可能它只是幾千塊錢的的這種消費糾紛它被列入警視帳戶但它那個帳戶可能是它平常"},{"start":735.993,"end":750.436,"text":"生活在使用的主要帳號裡面可能有幾百萬的存款不過警示帳戶的產生也是銀行依據警察或者檢警料的通知而列為警示帳戶的這個我有講那這個到底這個警示帳戶到底我們怎麼樣來定性這個警示帳戶事實上在學界上面也有爭議這個"},{"start":764.741,"end":773.606,"text":"因為你這個從有警察來來這個有警察這邊所提出的這個警示帳戶跟從這個法官檢察官"},{"start":775.537,"end":800.088,"text":"這個提出的警示賬戶他的救濟程序就完全不一樣了一個是行政救濟一邊就是就是已經進入進入這個這個刑事刑事訴訟程序了那這個整個我們要再當然我們再確要確主要是要確實要打擊打擊這個這個詐騙不法行為所以才會有警示賬戶這個這種這種方式來來產生但這個過程裡面這個警示賬戶他本身目前並沒有法制化"},{"start":801.229,"end":818.939,"text":"你們這目前沒有法之話你們目前是按照一個存款帳戶及疑似不法或嫌屬異常交易管理辦法目前是用一個管理辦法作為法令依據是銀行法的授權對那我個人認為說現在這樣子我們這個警視帳戶的這個在全國的警視帳戶這個數字數量這樣子"},{"start":825.703,"end":840.084,"text":"這樣子不斷的膨脹的情況之下我個人認為應該走向法制化而且將這個警視帳戶他的相關的救濟的程序你被列入警視帳戶之後相關的救濟程序我覺得要做這個整個在這法制化的過程中把它釐清"},{"start":841.371,"end":864.832,"text":"是那這個部分在打詐四法裡面也有一些條文的規定那包括比如說母法第11條的這個款項的返還有一些機制會比原來的回來的對但是現在目前他就是要走不同的機制你被檢察官跟法官列入警視帳戶跟警察局通報的警視帳戶他的這個救濟程序就不一樣所以我個人我是希望你們在這個"},{"start":867.175,"end":874.047,"text":"確保打擊詐騙不法行為的同時,我們對於相關的救濟措施要予以完備,這部分是我們金管會的責任。」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1545,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（13時16分）主席，我們先請法務部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：部長好。我們主席今天排了這樣子的專案報告主題，又因為我們的打詐四法從7月份上路到現在已有一段時間了，我想也利用這個機會來檢視目前新的打詐四法施行之後的成效。根據我們內政部警政署刑事警察局的統計資料，從111年推出新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.0版本到112年的1.5版本到113年的2.0版本，按照歷年的數據來看，從103年到112年，確實我們在打擊詐欺部分的破獲率從49.53%逐漸提升到90.43%，請問這是破獲率的提升還是案件數的增加？這個部分是不是部長能夠說明一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這部分是不是破獲率，是不是可以請警政署來說明？因為是他們查獲的。"],["沈委員發惠：好，請署長說明。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。破獲率就是案件發生之後我們去做一個查緝到案，到目前為止這個打詐儀表板，我們從8月29號公布之後，我們的統計方式不一樣，所以詐欺案件的發生數跟金額數比去年是增加的。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上案件數也是節節攀升。"],["張署長榮興：對，案件數是節節攀升的，那因為我們……"],["沈委員發惠：破獲率也有所提高吧？"],["張署長榮興：對！對！對！"],["沈委員發惠：事實上發生的案件數是提升得相當驚人。"],["張署長榮興：是，也是提升的。"],["沈委員發惠：署長請回，我還是跟部長來討論。我們今天討論的主題焦點設定在移工跟青少年，就移工這個部分，我想在討論過程中我們要比較謹慎，避免在討論過程中把移工標籤化，當然現在青少年跟移工他們做車手和提供人頭帳戶的狀況是滿嚴重的，但事實上依我個人的瞭解，就移工的部分而言，他們遭到詐騙成為詐騙集團受害者的比率也非常高，比本土還要高，對不對？這個部分部長瞭解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：事實上移工來臺灣工作這部分因為有特殊性，所以詐團往往會利用這些移工來做車手或購買人頭帳戶。"],["沈委員發惠：但是按照NGO團體的調查，發現事實上這些移工他們本身很多更容易淪為詐騙集團的受害者，因為他們來這裡防詐意識比較薄弱，再加上人在他鄉，很多淪為詐騙集團的目標，狀況也是很清楚，但是我們應該要關注的是說，目前有關移工涉入的這些犯罪結構裡面，是不是逐漸發展出組織化的狀況？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確是有。"],["沈委員發惠：有沒有人力仲介集團或人蛇集團介入這樣子的組織化的東西？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會再注意，但是的確是有委員關心的問題，新北地檢最近有指揮偵破了一件由菲律賓移工組成的車手集團，這些外籍移工提供金融帳戶，作為這些詐團洗錢之用的人頭帳戶兼車手，也利用通訊軟體來接受詐團的指示取款，那這部分我們會去溯源，再往上去追，到目前來講，移工的車手集團這部分，我們目前是有查到。我們會注意委員關心的這部分，我們會跟司法警察再來追查。"],["沈委員發惠：在這部分，一方面我們要避免標籤化，避免大家對移工貼標籤跟歧視，但是另外一方面，我們真正要關心的是他們有沒有往組織化犯罪的方向去。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有的話，我們會從偵查組織犯罪的方式來處理，除了加重詐欺的偵查以外，還有從組織犯罪的部分來處理。"],["沈委員發惠：部長你也講過一句話，我個人認為也是很有道理，你認為人頭帳戶是詐欺集團的命脈，你認為要打擊詐欺集團，人頭帳戶是他們最大的、最關鍵的靈魂命脈，現在有關青少年跟移工涉入詐欺犯罪，最重要的兩個角色，一個是車手，另外一個就是提供人頭帳戶，大概是這兩個。自從洗錢防制法通過及施行之後，過去在第十四條第一項，現在是在第二十一條，就是不正使用存款帳戶罪，從這一條立法之後，依這一條以不正使用帳戶罪來論罪的比例有多高？法務部知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再回去統計，因為我們手上沒有這些資料。"],["沈委員發惠：你們回去統計，過去相關的司法案件用詐欺幫助犯來論罪，或者是用一般洗錢罪來論罪，跟不正使用帳戶罪，過去在裁判上面，一直有輕重失衡的問題，就是因為法條競合的關係，還有輕重失衡的問題，尤其是詐欺罪，因為詐欺幫助犯要有雙重故意，所以在雙重故意的認定上面，過去最高法院刑事大法庭曾經做過一個裁定，對於行為人觸犯洗錢防制法是否成立，那時候是依第十四條第一項，法庭曾經做過這樣的裁定，現在打詐新四法施行之後，現行實務上面，在法條競合上面，有沒有產生歧義？這個部分可能要重新再做解釋。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分請部長是不是再重新……"],["鄭部長銘謙：過去的第十四條是有改掉了。"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那我們會再注意。"],["沈委員發惠：好。接下來我請教金管會銀行局。"],["林副局長志吉：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：今天是副局長來列席嗎？"],["林副局長志吉：是。"],["沈委員發惠：副局長，我們現在在談人頭帳戶，我就要關心有關警示帳戶機制的問題。有關警示帳戶機制的檢討，我想副局長應該很清楚，有關警示帳戶，有人說為了3,000元的網購爭議，結果他平常金錢用的幾百萬的帳戶被列為警示帳戶，整個凍結起來了，對於這個狀況，金管會曾經表示，有約談警示帳戶比較多的前五家銀行，定期追蹤，觀察他們每季的警示帳戶數是不是有下降。針對這個部分，你能不能做一下說明？"],["林副局長志吉：對，我們都有定期找……"],["沈委員發惠：有沒有下降？你們講的前五家銀行有沒有下降？"],["林副局長志吉：前五名應該有的有改善，可能也有上升的。"],["沈委員發惠：什麼樣的狀況？你能不能跟我說明一下？你這樣講，就是說有的有下降，有的有下降，這我當然知道啊，你能不能說明一下具體的情形？"],["林副局長志吉：因為每一個時段可能情況不太一樣，就比如說，去年有一家合併案，相關的案件就會比較多一點。"],["沈委員發惠：據我統計，現在的警示帳戶，從110年到113年，已經從6萬4,000個變成現在的13萬4,350個，成長是相當驚人的，超過一倍，那這些警示帳戶，有的是來自警政署的通報，有的是來自法務部，如果有帳戶被列為警示帳戶，這個被列入警示帳戶的人要怎麼救濟？就變成有不同的救濟方式。如果金管會沒有辦法處理警示帳戶的問題，你們自己說這前五家銀行你們要去進行專案列管，將它們列入專案列管對象，定期追蹤改善情況，觀察銀行每季警示帳戶是否下降，這是你們自己講的，我現在就是要問你們說，你們講這些話，你們現在的成果是怎麼樣？"],["林副局長志吉：這個部分是不是容我們會後再提供相關的報告給委員？"],["沈委員發惠：好，就這樣，你們會後提供，但是因為你們這樣講，社會上大家在關心，現在被列入警示帳戶的人，確實有造成一些困擾，有的可能只是因為幾千塊錢的消費糾紛，被列入警示帳戶，但是那個帳戶可能是他平常生活在使用的主要帳戶，裡面可能有幾百萬的存款。"],["林副局長志吉：不過警示帳戶的產生，也是銀行依據警察或者檢警調的通知，將其列為警示帳戶。"],["沈委員發惠：這個我有講。到底怎麼樣來定性警示帳戶，事實上在學界上面也有爭議，警察所提出的警示帳戶，跟法官、檢察官所提出的警示帳戶，救濟程序完全不一樣，一個是行政救濟，一個是已經進入刑事訴訟程序，我們主要的目的是要確實打擊詐騙不法行為，所以才會有警示帳戶這種方式來產生，但是在這個過程裡面，警示帳戶本身目前並沒有法制化，你們目前沒有法制化，你們目前是按照存款帳戶及疑似不法或顯屬異常交易管理辦法，目前是一個管理辦法作為法令依據。"],["林副局長志吉：是銀行法的授權。"],["沈委員發惠：對。在全國的警示帳戶數量這樣子不斷膨脹的情況之下，我個人認為應該走向法制化，而且若被列入警示帳戶，相關的救濟程序，在法制化的過程中要釐清。"],["林副局長志吉：是。這個部分在打詐專法裡面也有一些條文的規定，比如說，母法第十一條的款項返還也有一些機制，會比原來的更完善。"],["沈委員發惠：但是現在就是要走不同的機制，如果被檢察官跟法官列入警示帳戶，跟警察局通報的警示帳戶，救濟程序就不一樣，所以我個人希望你們在確保打擊詐騙不法行為的同時，對於相關的救濟措施，要予以完備，這部分是金管會的責任，好不好？"],["林副局長志吉：是，我們再努力。"],["沈委員發惠：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。那我們下一位請傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員不在場。","請羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員不在場。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員傅崐萁所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}