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空喔"},{"start":678.356,"end":693.281,"text":"我想只要對病人而且是醫師覺得他是有效的我想都是列入審核的那個審核列入健保的一個行列我這邊距離要求不長好不好"},{"start":695.482,"end":721.324,"text":"這一個如果是這麼好那基本上就應該特別跟健保署討論一下好 謝謝就請部長來一起來努力啦也配合施政的這個三點你的政策啦好不好最後一件事情請部長要調查清楚我覺得這種心態實在是交代不過去昨天在這個委員會和部長發生什麼狀況大家非常清楚"},{"start":721.764,"end":744.539,"text":"因為因為發生了憾事之後是11月4號11月8號才讓這副組長請假接受調查然後隔過10天才在這個才在前天才公佈昨天接受備詢各位可以想個是什麼狀況我就不再贅述為什麼同樣CDC遇到霸凌的事件我們的機關署的副組長第一個時間對外說明需要調查兩個月誰授權誰指示"},{"start":753.127,"end":761.867,"text":"為什麼等到院長震怒之後說必須各機關一個月內因為一星期內所有的辦理事件必須調查完成才再改口"},{"start":762.911,"end":773.634,"text":"報告委員那原來是因為依據我們機關署有一個員工職場霸凌的防治跟處理作業的辦法規定還是在兩個月內啦兩個月內對對對對早上才什麼狀況你們下午還一樣要講兩個月內是那你為什麼不跟院長講說你們現在之前有這樣的一個作業準則"},{"start":784.461,"end":789.085,"text":"主要還是要縮短那整個調查的過程關於我們各機關自己的心境比較麻煩署長是你下令的嗎"},{"start":806.714,"end":825.106,"text":"呃應該是說我們我本來是想要快一點的但是但是我們有副組長不想快一點要照周圍準則跟副組長沒有關係跟副組長沒有關係啊不然副組長為什麼講那些話沒有沒有呃兩個月內這當然就是說兩個月內早上在這個委員會乒乒乓乓你們下午看那個記者會你們完全"},{"start":828.703,"end":829.505,"text":"提醒各位謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1469,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（14時20分）謝謝部長，謝謝召委。有請部長和長照司。有來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好、司長好。根據衛福部失智症防治照護政策綱領暨行動方案2.0，有一個「失智友善臺灣777」的目標，部長知道吧？司長一定知道。"],["邱部長泰源：知道。"],["劉委員建國：預期七成以上患者獲得診斷及服務，七成以上照顧者獲得支持訓練，7%以上民眾對失智症有正確認識及友善態度。沒有錯吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：19日衛福部發了一則新聞稿，大致內容是這樣，全臺失智確診比率達67.23%，預期超過23.3萬名失智家庭照顧者獲得支援，社會大眾對失智症正確認識及友善態度達19.6%。"],["祝司長健芳：這是指113年，所以今年有達成政策綱領的階段性目標。"],["劉委員建國：這叫有達成政策綱領的政策目標？"],["祝司長健芳：是。因為今年是67%，明年才是70%。"],["劉委員建國：所以司長認為今年已經達標了？"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你看到下面這些文字之後，對照上面「失智友善臺灣777」這個目標，你覺得達標了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得還有繼續努力的空間。"],["劉委員建國：這個空間還有多大？部長有沒有玩過拉霸機？「776」沒有辦法賓果，「767」也沒有辦法賓果，「677」也不可能賓果，你覺得這樣賓果了嗎？司長答復今年度達標了，對不對？部長，你覺得達標了嗎？你所謂的努力空間還差百分之幾？簡單說明就好，部長。"],["邱部長泰源：如果以部門訂的目標來看是有達到，但是我們……"],["劉委員建國：部長也認定有達到他們訂的目標，七成以上獲得診斷及服務。第一個是全臺失智確診比例67.3%，反之，七成以上照顧者獲得支持訓練，你們馬上把它轉換成預期超過23.3萬名失智家庭照顧者獲得支援，可以這樣轉換？那你們的第一個7和第二個7就不用分成兩個了！"],["祝司長健芳：我們推估今年的失智症人數是35萬人，我們是依據推估的人數。基本上只要確診，我們的相關服務也包括照顧者，都會一起接受相關的支持服務，所以這裡的23.3萬名，其實也表示推估23.3萬失智症者被確診。"],["劉委員建國：不好意思，本席現在就要戳破，你這樣的說法是有問題的。什麼叫做確診率達67.3%，就是預期超過23.3萬名失智家庭照顧者獲得支援？部長，11月22日總質詢的時候，本席有提供一份資料給你和院長參考，這是國際失智症協會在今年9月21日公布的，2024年全球失智症報告中，參與調查的臺灣照顧者，對於「社區中有足夠失智者支持服務」的認同比例為48.5%，並沒有過半，同時一般民眾的認同率更是只有32.4%。請來挑戰國際失智症協會。"],["祝司長健芳：因為國際失智症協會其實是詢問相關的人，我們後續也會了解他們抽樣的樣本到底是怎麼……"],["劉委員建國：本席11月22日總質詢，你們後續才要詢問，現在已經11月21日，所以你們還沒有問？或者你要告訴本席，他們只談到社區的部分而已？還是他們的調查有問題？或者你們要詢問後才有辦法答復本席和部長？"],["祝司長健芳：因為這個調查確實就像委員說的，他們是在社區調查，可是事實上我們也有非常多失智症長輩是在住宿型機構，在住宿型機構的失智比例高達八成。"],["劉委員建國：所以現在要和本席討論的是住宿型機構？還是要說社區的部分？還是兩個要一起說？"],["祝司長健芳：我們的政策綱領訂的是全臺灣，當時訂定的政策綱領就是114年要達標。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！全臺灣嘛！你現在是說家庭、社區，還是機構？"],["祝司長健芳：就是指全臺灣。"],["劉委員建國：全臺灣嘛！就是指全部嘛！包含機構、社區、家庭，可以這麼說嘛！"],["祝司長健芳：是。委員，您拿的國際失智症協會的資料，他們調查的是社區的部分。"],["劉委員建國：是嗎？所以你的意思是說，家庭的部分OK，機構的部分OK，唯獨社區的部分不OK？所以家庭和機構加起來，再扣掉社區，你們還是有達到六成七，你們想要表達的是這樣嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：我們確實……"],["劉委員建國：你有把握嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：這六成七確實都有比對過ID，包括在長照體系使用服務的這些失智症，還有……"],["劉委員建國：那你就必須向國際失智症協會表示，你們不能這麼不公平，家庭的部分有做好的，你們也要稱讚我們啊！機構的部分有做好，你們也要稱讚啊！你們怎麼只把做的不好的呈現出來？你的意思是這樣嘛！本席要不要再把資料拿出來？"],["祝司長健芳：有機會的話，我們可以和國際失智症協會聯繫，其實我們幾年前有邀請理事主席到臺灣協助做一些……"],["劉委員建國：司長，你們這樣的新聞稿是不是過於樂觀？本席是要提醒這一點。還有你們這樣的計算方式是不是過於阿Q？本席覺得有問題啦！如果你覺得沒有問題，到時候再拜託召委針對失智症的全部面向，好好做專案討論，我們再逐一把相關數據提供給你們參考。"],["祝司長健芳：其實我們的推估是國衛院協助做的失智流行病調查。"],["劉委員建國：還要把國衛院拉下來？是國衛院有問題？"],["祝司長健芳：我要表達的是，我們現在推估出來的這個流行病調查，其實是非常嚴謹的，其中有兩階段，包括按照相關的評估工具評估，第二輪是由熟悉失智症的醫師實際到宅去訪問。"],["劉委員建國：本席知道國衛院很嚴謹，但是國衛院有時候也會出錯嘛！國衛院在國家高齡醫學暨健康福祉研究中心的相關成果報告裡面，竟然把學校的禮義廉恥四個字列為成果報告裡面的活動之一，你聽過嗎？你了解嗎？你要再把國衛院拉進來，是不是？你們這次的總預算，本席告訴你會有問題啦！好，請回啦！司長，你回去再好好思考一下。","昨天居服聯盟辦的記者會，因為你要參與會議先行離開，這部分本席沒有意見，但是你離開之後，你們留下來的人也跟著離開了。居服聯盟和這麼多委員還在現場，針對長照3.0提出相關建言，他們連朗讀、播放影片以及和你們對話的機會都沒有，長照司沒有人留在現場，理由是要去參加會議，你們是這樣面對第一線團體的建言。而且當時還有很多跨黨派委員在現場，但你們已經沒有人在那個地方，你們這樣是會出問題的，所以本席要提醒你。"],["祝司長健芳：謝謝委員提醒。我們事先有和那個單位溝通過，因為同仁需要參加會議，所以他們要求遞交陳情書的時候，我們的人要在場接陳情書，事先有和陳雪慧女士溝通過。"],["劉委員建國：你要再說下去？好，我們找時間再好好說。部長，本席要讓你知道有這個狀況，你也參考一下。因為失智症2.0明年底就要結束，對不對？你請回啦！本席沒有請你站在那裡，是他說到你，有事你可以去找他算帳，但是本席剛才說的這件事情，你們可能要小心，把禮義廉恥放在你們國家高齡醫學暨健康福祉研究中心成果裡面的活動之一，你們是國家衛生研究院，提到國家，這是何等神聖、重要的事情。司長請回。部長，對不起，你先留著，還有關於你的事情。","坦白說，賴總統一直提到長照3.0，不是現在才在說，在競選期間或是就任之後，他一直在說長照3.0，而且明年長照基金還高達937億元，對不對？所以長照3.0的期程勢必要提早，相對的，失智症2.0變成3.0，也應該一併提早才對嘛！應該要未雨綢繆。你不要告訴本席，一樣要執行到明年底才會結束，這樣沒有道理啦！不管是在什麼樣的情況之下，本席希望部長要以新的思維和做法積極因應，長照相關面向的事情要加緊腳步。","食藥署有審查通過一項阿茲海默症的新藥，這是首款可以延緩患者退化，直接改善病程的藥，而且衛福部呂次長一樣也在19日表示，新藥通過對失智症的治療帶來重大突破。這款新藥需自費，一年約70萬元，這對一般家庭來說，其實負擔不小啦！對不對？大家期盼這麼久，終於有這樣的新藥可以延緩失智症患者的病程，坦白說，這也可以大幅減少醫療成本的支出，這是次長對外的說明，對不對？這款新藥何時可以納入健保給付？部長，你們有思考過嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想只要對病人……而且醫師覺得它是有效的，都是審核列入健保的行列……"],["劉委員建國：所以本席在這邊具體要求部長，如果這個這麼好，你們應該積極處理。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我會特別和健保署討論一下。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝啦！請部長一起努力，也要配合失智症3.0的政策，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，當然。"],["劉委員建國：最後一件事情，請部長調查清楚，本席覺得這種心態實在交代不過去。昨天在這個委員會，何部長發生什麼狀況，大家都非常清楚。因為11月4日發生憾事，11月8日才讓分署長請假接受調查，中間隔了10天，前天才公布結果，昨天接受備詢，各位可以想像這是什麼狀況，本席不再贅述。","同樣的，為什麼CDC遇到霸凌事件，疾管署副署長第一時間對外說明需要調查兩個月，誰授權？誰指示？為什麼要等到院長震怒，要求各機關在一星期內，所有霸凌事件必須調查完成，所以才改口？"],["莊署長人祥：原來是依據疾管署的員工職場霸凌防制和處理作業辦法，規定是在兩個月內。"],["劉委員建國：兩個月內？"],["莊署長人祥：對。"],["劉委員建國：早上開會是什麼狀況？你們下午還是一樣說兩個月內處理。"],["莊署長人祥：所以……"],["劉委員建國：你們為什麼不告訴院長，因為你們有這樣的作業準則？你要不要告訴院長，這樣的處理時間太快了？"],["莊署長人祥：因為行政院有政策指示，所以我們就配合這個政策指示，主要是縮短整個調查的過程。"],["劉委員建國：公部門各機關的神經要繃緊一點啦！署長，是你下令的嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，我本來是想要快一點啦！但是我們有相關規定。"],["劉委員建國：副署長不想快一點，要照作業準則處理？"],["莊署長人祥：和副署長沒有關係。"],["劉委員建國：不然副署長為什麼會講那些話？"],["莊署長人祥：沒有，兩個月內是我們……"],["劉委員建國：早上在這個委員會「乒乒砰砰」，你們下午開記者會卻完全……"],["主席：狀況外。"],["劉委員建國：部長，要小心啦！提醒各位，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國，語重心長，署長要注意。","最後一個，好不好？請陳瑩委員質詢，要快一點。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}