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ext":"你知道日本總所得是多少嗎你是怎樣叫做比他優惠因為他所減免的額度比我們少我們現在是他們是定額免稅我們像政經教育所得是全額免稅然後我們的儲蓄投資特別扣除我們是27萬元免稅他們的額度只有一部分的額度比我們少很多所以我們比較之下我們真的已經比日本優惠多了"},{"start":329.799,"end":340.185,"text":"我不認為這個叫比日本優惠啦我不認為啦你們財政部就是不積極我隨便舉個例子你就沒說到我再三令五申跟你們說"},{"start":341.653,"end":362.555,"text":"你們應該對九大公營行庫他貸款給這些建商尤其是貸款給這些高負債的建商讓他們去買地養地圈地這就是造成我們臺灣房價節節上升的原因我說你要把這些銀行控管好結果銀行我們要求"},{"start":363.567,"end":381.014,"text":"中央銀行跟財政部你們要求銀行要管控好說那你這些建商借錢去買空地空地貸款的部分一年半內要開工那超過一年半的沒開工多少我問你們你們當然全然不知"},{"start":382.845,"end":399.334,"text":"我們個別就問你們轄管的這九大銀行轄管九大銀行告訴我土地銀行竟然高達5.11%預期的喔到了一年半他沒有開工你們也沒跟他催"},{"start":400.903,"end":427.816,"text":"這麼高的預期呢那你們表示說那你們就縱容他們嗎報告委員其實我們是有配合中央銀行的政策我們有要求我們的公股行庫基本上要去控管這個逾18個月為動工的購地貸款控管成這個樣子對 但是因為因為土地銀行它本身它就是一個比較特殊的銀行它就是以土地建融融資為主要業務我們問你有沒有去管控你們說有"},{"start":428.456,"end":456.662,"text":"那說好那管控的成績給我們看一問三不知來那個暫停我先問那個我也問一下金管會主委彭主委然後你們銀行局也是同樣的問題我問你們銀行局銀行局也是他說他們都沒調查沒有統計不知道一問三不知請問啊我剛剛說的這個問題是不是該銀行局該財政部財政部因為是九大公銀行戶是他們的嘛"},{"start":457.262,"end":462.623,"text":"那他當然應該知道這個數字是我們一家一家銀行去問出來的"},{"start":463.168,"end":491.663,"text":"每次都這個樣子問你們說公營銀行戶有沒有貸款給鼠條三兄弟也是銀行局也是一問三不知不願意提供市報委員這個齁這個我們在銀行是我們有針對每一家公司的貸款房貸還有土建容的餘額都有做控管但是因為這個這個這個總額管制的部分是央行在在在那你現在推給央行啦不是這個確實我們是有分工來做這件事情"},{"start":492.287,"end":516.798,"text":"所以這個事情是我們問錯人就對也不是這樣講銀行局不用管他轄下的這些銀行是不是有貸款出去的沒有照約定的在一個期限內空地貸款耶一年半這個基本常識耶超過一年半這個應該收回不是嗎銀行局怎麼可以不算"},{"start":522.105,"end":538.654,"text":"報言因為這些是央行的選擇性信用管制那平常我們在檢查所以央行的選擇性信用管制所以就該央行去管就對了你們的意思是這樣是他要選擇性信用管制他做選擇性的就好你們不用做是這樣嗎"},{"start":539.394,"end":540.095,"text":"我現在請問你下回我們問你類似這樣的問題"},{"start":556.656,"end":571.263,"text":"那你回答不回答十大負債高高於70%的建商問你們也是一萬三不知也是我們一家一家趕快去查建商哪一些貸款率過高的"},{"start":572.402,"end":600.684,"text":"結果你們你如果不曉得喔這個有最高的那個第一名負債將近89%啦那你這樣還敢貸款給他你鑄作為虐嘛你借他這些錢讓他去買地養地圈地然後現在利率這麼低他當然敢借啊不是這樣嗎然後你們一問三不知我跟你講我時間有限那個主委我跟你講齁我們資產管理中心的重點就是希望啊國外你的錢來給我們臺灣管"},{"start":602.365,"end":614.684,"text":"好了我大概3個月前就跟你說說我們有一個很矛盾我們臺灣受險的可運用餘額資金這大概32兆32兆70%"},{"start":618.43,"end":633.904,"text":"是被這些壽險業拿去國外投資買國外的債券基金有22兆去買國外的債券基金請問那這個如何說服國際上說你來我們國家你把錢交給我們台灣來管"},{"start":634.705,"end":654.106,"text":"我們自己的錢百分之七十去買國外去給國外管難道我們還說那你錢讓我管那你對誰有說服力我們要對非洲這些小國有說服力嗎我們的給更高明的管難道我們請非洲的你來給我管是這樣嗎"},{"start":655.267,"end":672.473,"text":"不是這樣啦我想過去他會投資這麼多的時空的背景我想現在現在我們希望把他引回來對所以我上次就是講嘛就是說背景就不談啦我就說這樣子我們國內公共建設也需要資金我們剛好每年請他3%、5%"},{"start":675.454,"end":700.376,"text":"轉回我們國內那國內就是要請站你旁邊那個財政部財政部你們就要負起責任嘛你們就教教其他交通部內政部教他們如何來設立這些債券比方說交通交通有很大的像捷運自償率很高啊他只要通車以後賣票以後對不對各項那個"},{"start":703.66,"end":713.656,"text":"這個內政你像社會住宅你像長照這一些都有自償性啊那這些現在都缺資金啊那我們把國外的這些資金每年3%、5%、7%請他回來"},{"start":716.912,"end":745.807,"text":"是不是又可以充裕我們國內的建設結果財政部也是如如不動沒有報告委員我們其實現在已經跟國發會還有金管會還有財政部對我們共同擬定了一個兆元投資國家發展的方案這裡面中間就有一個非常重要的就是吸引國外就是本國的資金回臺來投資參加我們的公共建設那到現在你做了怎樣有吸引回來了嗎你看談的結果有幾家受選公司預計提揮多少"},{"start":746.667,"end":770.414,"text":"在這個部分我剛剛講我們70%我們大概從10年前就開始我們國家警覺到這個問題那這個大家一直說應該調降調降結果說要調降越降越高當年10年前大概只有56%到4年前64%到今年70%"},{"start":774.758,"end":790.648,"text":"是委員我們也知道就是我們越降越高說要把這個在外面投資的這個金額降低拿回國內結果降成這個樣子有現在就是因為這個剛才跟委員報告就是我們三個部會對現在標準我列幾個國家隨便幾個國家"},{"start":796.551,"end":798.491,"text":"中共我們最討厭的中共2%韓國8.3%日本21.6%美國12%我們70%他們這4個國家加起來還不到我們的一半天啊加起來才30幾%34%這4個國家加起來"},{"start":827.319,"end":832.862,"text":"受險的對外投資金額我們70%他們四個國家加起來才35%天啊"},{"start":838.53,"end":857.016,"text":"所以齁我認為你們不只要做不只要寫計畫要積極的去做金管委員我比較沒話講喔因為他5月才上任你們財政部部長也沒話我從這一屆立委上任2月3月就開始質詢他質詢他這一點"},{"start":859.059,"end":886.891,"text":"他最有責任二月三月到現在都超過半年啦他找了幾趴回來一趴都沒有零趴然後他今年還敢出國去度假是不是不是我們部長是去參加APEC參加APEC那可以原諒不好意思報告委員我們剛剛那個專案真的經過行政院核定以後我們就會積極來推動而且將來會成立一個院級的這個辦公這個"},{"start":888.232,"end":890.594,"text":"每一句話背後都有神明所以你講這些你要對全民負責而且要對神明負責"},{"start":913.868,"end":935.108,"text":"好不好主席不好意思我剛剛想到有一句我30秒問一下主委那個主委那個我們我跟你有商量過了我們要用本來經濟部轄管的金融消費保護法那麼用這個你說要找我們找鼠條三兄弟談希望一個機會給鼠條三兄弟重量"},{"start":936.429,"end":940.371,"text":"我們已經跟公會跟他們三家都談過了那現在我們也開始啟動我們那個金融消費者保護法執法的調整我們接下來是會持續的去把甚至範圍還可能再擴大一點點"},{"start":958.277,"end":985.084,"text":"好那這三家都同意因為90%的金額是這三家我們朝這個方向努力因為這個畢竟是要花一點點時間他們同意了嗎還沒還沒還沒接受轄管現在我們是希望說能夠逐步的跟他們溝通現在狀況還在溝通中狀況是樂觀的狀況是樂觀的現在我們努力你就用我剛剛講的那個字給他一個重量的機會好謝謝謝謝王世堅"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":989,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時14分）謝謝主席，我請金管會彭主委，今天財政部部長沒來？"],["主席：是，部長出國。"],["王委員世堅：好，請次長。"],["主席：請彭主委、李次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，我剛才聽到你說很有信心，這一點我覺得你精神可嘉，這個確實需要有相當的勇氣，也要有相當的把握。這一次賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長提出要打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，這個大方向都完全正確。其實這個目標和策略，我們已經講了二十幾年，歷來政府在講，過去推動大家講的口號很多，也有訂一些策略。但是我認為做的可能越來越不積極，所以導致現在這個部分成果很差。","就調查的金融指數來講，我們臺灣不管是經商的環境、人力資本、基礎建設、所有金融體系發展、國家聲望等等這五大項，我們現在淪落到後段班欸！全球調查120個城市，我們臺北，我們整個國家，在120個國家裡面，我們淪落到第73名。在5年前，2019年我們還有第30名，變成我們這個名次是逐步下滑。我們還曾經第41名，也曾經躍升到第18名。從5年前開始，掉到第30名之後逐年下滑，到現在第73名，我們已經淪為後段班。","當然，你現在提出很多好的策略，我認為這些想法很對，但是需要財政部也配合。我就舉例講這個TISA，TISA這個部分非常正確，我們鼓勵國人開TISA個人帳戶，這當然要財政部來配合，配合什麼呢？配合鼓勵的一些措施，像是鼓勵減稅、降稅，結果財政部卻如如不動不能談，你有跟財政部談過了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們跟財政部溝通過，非常非常多的會議。"],["王委員世堅：那他們的回應是怎樣？我看他們好像不積極嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實財政部滿積極，主要是我剛剛跟委員報告，其實臺灣的賦稅政策，因為它會牽涉到各個產業公平性的考量。我們當然也知道政府是一體的，這部分我們剛才跟財政部談了以後，確實如果現階段要推動，立刻要有一個非常明確，能夠追得上新、港的租稅，我在猜臺灣沒有這個條件。"],["王委員世堅：財政部就是不肯嘛！你說他積極，積極做什麼？積極保稅就對了，要求他租稅優惠、減稅這些，不可能啦！次長……"],["李次長慶華：委員我說明一下……"],["王委員世堅：我想不懂啦！你們鼓勵當沖降稅，不是這樣嗎？"],["李次長慶華：當沖降稅是我們亞洲資產管理中心一個很重要的措施。"],["王委員世堅：卻不鼓勵這種長期投資，我覺得很奇怪啊！"],["李次長慶華：我們也鼓勵長期投資，我們對於股利的所得課稅是非常優惠的。"],["王委員世堅：你怎麼鼓勵？你還不是說就如昔，照先前的制度，那在鼓勵什麼？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，因為我們現在對於投資這部分的租稅優惠，已經是非常優惠的了，因為我們的證券交易所得是完全免稅的，然後我們的股利所得，現在只要你所得在94萬元以下幾乎不用繳稅。我講的是股利喔！因為我們有8萬元的可扣抵稅額可以抵減，抵減不足還可以退稅，另外我們在銀行存款的儲蓄投資……"],["王委員世堅：所以你認為這些就夠了？"],["李次長慶華：不是，因為我們這個優惠比較……"],["王委員世堅：你認為這些就足以讓我們現在鼓勵國人開TISA個人帳戶，這些就夠了？"],["李次長慶華：因為金管會提供給我們的資料，他拿的是日本或者是其他國家已經在實施類似TISA這樣的制度，比較之下，我們都比他們優惠。所以我們覺得現行的制度可以配合金管會來做一個規劃……"],["王委員世堅：你覺得哪樣比日本優惠？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們真的比日本優惠。"],["王委員世堅：你知道日本總所得是多少嗎？你是怎樣叫做比他優惠？"],["李次長慶華：因為他所減免的額度比我們少，他們是定額免稅，像我們證券交易所得是全額免稅，然後我們的儲蓄投資特別扣除是27萬元免稅，他們的額度只有一部分的額度，比我們少很多，所以比較之下我們真的已經比日本優惠多了。"],["王委員世堅：我不認為這個叫比日本優惠，我不認為，你們財政部門就是不積極。我隨便舉個例子你就沒做到，我一再三令五申跟你們說，針對九大公營行庫，貸款給建商，尤其是貸款給高負債的建商，讓他們去買地、養地、圈地，這就是造成我們臺灣房價節節上升的原因。我說你要把這些銀行控管好，結果我們要求中央銀行跟財政部，你們要求銀行要管控好，這些建商借錢去買空地，空地貸款的部分一年半內要開工，那超過一年半沒開工的有多少？我問你們，你們當然全然不知。全然不知我們就問你們轄管的這九大銀行，九大銀行告訴我，土地銀行竟然高達5.11%，逾期的喔！到了一年半，他沒有開工，你們也沒跟他催，這麼高的逾期，表示你們就縱容他們嘛！"],["李次長慶華：其實我們是有配合中央銀行的政策，我們有要求我們的公股行庫，基本上要去控管逾18個月未動工的購地貸款……"],["王委員世堅：控管成這個樣子！"],["李次長慶華：因為土地銀行他本身就是一個比較特殊的銀行，他就是以土融、建融為主要業務。"],["王委員世堅：我們問你有沒有去管控，你們說有，那管控的成績給我們看，卻是一問三不知！我也問一下金管會彭主委，然後你們銀行局也是，同樣的問題，我問你們銀行局，銀行局也是說他們都沒調查、沒有統計、不知道，一問三不知。請問，我剛剛說的這個問題，是不是該銀行局、該財政部管？因為九大公銀行庫是財政部的嘛！他當然應該知道，這個數字是我們一家一家銀行去問出來的，每次都這個樣子。問你們說公營行庫有沒有貸款給薯條三兄弟？銀行局也是一問三不知，不願意提供。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在銀行有針對每一家公司的貸款、房貸，還有土建融的餘額都有做控管，但因為這個總和管制的部分是央行在處理……"],["王委員世堅：那你現在推給央行啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我們確實是有分工來做這樣的事情。"],["王委員世堅：所以這個事情是我們問錯人就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不是這樣講，我是說因為這麼多人在……"],["王委員世堅：銀行局不用管，他轄下的這些銀行是不是有貸款出去沒有照約定的，在一個期限內，空地貸款欸！一年半，這個基本常識欸！包括一年半，這個應該收回不是嗎？銀行局怎麼可以不甩？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我請銀行局局長來跟您回答這個問題。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為這些是央行的選擇性信用管制，平常我們在……"],["王委員世堅：央行的選擇性信用管制，所以就該央行去管就對了，你們的意思是這樣？"],["莊局長琇媛：不是……"],["王委員世堅：是他要選擇性信用管制，他做選擇性的就好，你們不用做，是這樣嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，當然執行的機關是金融機構，所以我們在做金融檢查的時候，也會一起檢查金融機構是不是有遵循央行的……"],["王委員世堅：我現在請問你，下回我們再問你類似這樣的問題，你回答不回答？十大負債高於70%的建商，問你們也是一問三不知，也是我們一家一家趕快去查建商，哪一些貸款率過高的。最高的第一名，負債將近89%！這樣你還敢貸款給他？你助紂為虐嘛！你借他這些錢讓他去買地、養地、圈地，然後現在利率這麼低，他當然敢借啊！不是這樣嗎？然後你們一問三不知。","我時間有限，主委我跟你講，我們資產管理中心的重點，就是希望國外的錢來給我們臺灣管。我大概3個月前就跟你說，我們有一點很矛盾，我們臺灣壽險的可運用餘額資金大概32兆，32兆有70%是被這些壽險業拿去國外投資，買國外的債券基金，有22兆去買國外的債券基金。請問這如何說服國際？你來我們國家，你把錢交給我們臺灣來管，結果我們自己的錢70%去買國外，去給國外管，然後我們說：「來，你的錢讓我管。」你對誰有說服力？我們對非洲這些小國有說服力嗎？我們的給更高明的管，然後我們請非洲的來給我管，是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是這樣啦！我想過去他會投資這麼多有時空的背景，所以現在我們希望把他引回來。"],["王委員世堅：對，所以我上次就講嘛！背景就不談啦！我就說這樣子，我們國內公共建設也需要資金，我們剛好每年請他3%、5%轉回我們國內，那國內就是要請財政部負起責任嘛！你們就教教交通部、內政部，教他們如何來設立這些債券。比方說交通，交通有很大的像捷運，自償率很高啊！他只要通車賣票以後，對不對？內政像社會住宅、長照，這些都有自償性啊！這些現在都缺資金啊！我們把國外的這些資金，每年3%、5%、7%請他回來，是不是又可以充裕我們國內的建設，結果財政部也是如如不動。"],["李次長慶華：沒有，我們現在其實已經跟國發會還有金管會、財政部……"],["王委員世堅：已經動了？"],["李次長慶華：對，我們共同擬定了一個兆元投資國家發展的方案，這中間就有一個非常重要的，就是吸引在國外的本國資金回台投資，參加我們的公共建設。"],["王委員世堅：那現在你做的怎樣？有吸引回來了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這個方案因為我們現在……"],["王委員世堅：你看談的結果有幾家壽險公司預計提回多少？"],["李次長慶華：現在是這樣……"],["王委員世堅：這個部分我剛剛講，70%大概從10年前就開始，我們國家警覺到這個問題，大家一直說應該調降，結果說要調降卻越降越高，10年前大概只有56%，4年前64%，到今年70%！"],["李次長慶華：是，委員，我們也知道，就是我們有很龐大……"],["王委員世堅：越降越高！說要把在外面投資的金額降低，拿回國內，結果降成這個樣子。"],["李次長慶華：剛才有跟委員報告，就是我們三個部會……"],["王委員世堅：你看一下現在的標準，我列幾個國家，隨便幾個國家。我們最討厭的中共是2%，韓國8.3%，日本21.6%，美國12%，我們70%！他們這4個國家加起來，還不到我們的一半，天啊！加起來才34%。壽險的對外投資金額，我們70%，他們4個國家加起來才35%，天啊！所以我認為你們不只要做，不只要寫計畫，要積極的去做！"],["李次長慶華：有，跟委員報告，我們……"],["王委員世堅：金管會我比較沒話講喔！因為他5月才上任，你們財政部，部長也沒換，我從這一屆立委上任，2月、3月就開始質詢他這一點。他最有責任，2月、3月到現在都超過半年了，他找了多少回來？1%都沒有！0%！然後他今天還敢出國，去度假是不是？"],["李次長慶華：不是，我們部長去參加APEC。"],["王委員世堅：參加APEC，那可以原諒。"],["李次長慶華：不好意思，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們剛才那個專案，真的經過行政院核定以後就會積極來推動，而且將來會成立一個院級的專案會議，也會由財政部跟國發會成立一個專案小組辦公室，我們財政部會擔任促參案的一個幕僚單位，將來會積極來推動。"],["王委員世堅：你說的你要負責喔！次長我告訴你，每一句話背後都有神明。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以你講這些，你要對全民負責，而且要對神明負責，好不好？","主席，不好意思，我剛剛想到一個問題，我用30秒問一下主委。我跟主委商量過，你說要用經濟部轄管的金融消費保護法，找薯條三兄弟來談，希望給他們一個從良的機會，讓他們能夠接受由金管會轄管，然後可以做債務協商，這個部分談得怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經跟公會跟他們三家都談過了，同時也開始啟動金融消費者保護法子法的調整，我們會持續去進行，甚至範圍還可能再擴大一點點……"],["王委員世堅：這三家都同意了？因為90%的金額是這三家……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們朝這個方向努力，因為這畢竟還是要花一點點時間。"],["王委員世堅：他們同意了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒。"],["王委員世堅：還沒接受轄管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們希望能夠逐步的跟他們溝通……"],["王委員世堅：還在溝通中？"],["彭主任委員金隆：狀況是樂觀的。"],["王委員世堅：狀況是樂觀的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我們努力。"],["王委員世堅：你就用我剛剛講的，給他一個從良的機會，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員，接著請廖先翔委員。各位官員可以自由用餐。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}