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112年要去法國考察違憲審查。113年要去法國考察違憲審查。到今年114年繼續院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度95萬8千元。"},{"start":119.261,"end":146.342,"text":"我看到什麼現象錢越來越多啊都是要去法國啊都是要去法國考察違憲審查連續三年啊直接複製貼上結果你今天在這邊跟大家講用臨機預算我看不懂啊這不是臨機預算啊臨機預算的精神絕對不是這樣啊現在司法院已經墮落到什麼是複製貼上預算啊"},{"start":148.809,"end":161.644,"text":"所以我才說你們有沒有把預算書的編列當一回事嘛還是複製貼上就好了還是反正上面寫的東西立法委員不會看這些立法委員都是閉著眼睛在審預算"},{"start":164.99,"end":183.313,"text":"舉手表決就通過了沒有人在看預算書啊也沒有人會去對去年編了什麼前年編了什麼今年編的跟去年編的跟前年編的文字一模一樣啊副秘書長這樣子的預算書編列你認為負責任嗎跟委員報告那當然那憲法法庭他需要的由大法官們他們去做斟酌那那"},{"start":195.099,"end":214.871,"text":"負哪一個國家去考察違憲,那是由大法官他們認為需要的,這些金額並不相同。」我先停一下啦,一樣一樣來講啦,所以你認為從司法院的觀點,連續三年要去法國考察違憲審查是大法官的錯?"},{"start":215.791,"end":230.982,"text":"他們報上來的需求每一年院長都一定要去法國一次因為法國違憲審查制度變動得太劇烈了如果沒有每年去法國我國沒有辦法精準地掌握法國違憲審查制度的變動是這樣嗎?我只問一件事預算書的這個文字是誰寫的?是誰負責寫的?"},{"start":246.372,"end":257.24,"text":"這個預算書送出來之前你看過沒有?啊你看了以後都沒有發現都複製貼上還是反正去年可以複製貼上今年複製貼上也沒有關係年年複製推上可以這樣幹喔太難看了啦連我們在小學教小學生都講不要抄啊"},{"start":277.878,"end":303.742,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年"},{"start":309.793,"end":330.592,"text":"公務委員報告依照我們業務廳的這個整理114萬左右。只有114萬?好,沒有關係喔。會後,會後,把那114萬錢怎麼花的?具體核銷的項目送來我辦公室可以嗎?可以。好,去了114萬以後覺得成效如何?"},{"start":332.912,"end":335.295,"text":"所以成效如何?你還是沒有回答問題啊?回來啦回來啦"},{"start":352.819,"end":355.922,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":369.804,"end":388.712,"text":"審理法律審議法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":400.165,"end":411.594,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":425.276,"end":449.67,"text":"事後跟相關這些國家聯絡當初所預計的不見得方便我們就這樣所以說因為情勢的這個轉變都有可能這種情勢不是只有沒有關係啦今天你可以站在這邊好好的解釋你的解釋台灣的公民能不能夠接受大家心裡都有一把尺去了九天九天的考察行程只有三天有公務這個行程你會不會覺得很充實"},{"start":455.418,"end":459.379,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案件事件審理法草案案件事件"},{"start":475.905,"end":504.705,"text":"公務委員報告那個考察不同的地方中間會考到假日會有會有行程會有路程這些的沒有關係啊因為這些報告吼你們通常放在司法院的網站但會去看的人很少啦但是我們當立法委員要監督我就一定要上去看嘛我看完的結果是這樣啊九天的出國考察行程啊上面真的有公務的三天啊這到底是考察還是旅遊啊"},{"start":505.663,"end":523.026,"text":"同樣交給社會來加以判斷。」然後我看完了這個報告以後,說你們要借鏡捷克憲法法院的運作方式嗎?來,借鏡的捷克憲法法院的運作方式得到最大的心得是什麼?"},{"start":524.997,"end":541.738,"text":"捷克憲法法庭的運作方式我們花了納稅人這些錢也好幾個大法官去考察了回來以後對我國最有啟示最有釋說的點是什麼司法院有人可以說明嗎還是因為你們都沒去所以也沒人可以說明"},{"start":546.442,"end":567.615,"text":"公務員報告,我們這一些報告都在網站上面有。所以呢只要報告丟到網站,我就簡單請教一件事,這個報告你們真的有人讀嗎?真的有人讀嗎?公務員報告當然我本身是沒有。當然我知道你人多事忙啦,來請那個廳長。"},{"start":569.83,"end":585.288,"text":"那個主管廳的廳長你有看過嗎?報告委員有。你有看過嗎?是。你看完了以後覺得對我國最大的啟示是什麼?跟委員報告,捷克憲法法院跟我國一樣,他的憲法法院一樣有15個大法官。一樣都有15個大法官嗎?是。好!"},{"start":587.079,"end":614.222,"text":"在這個報告裡面有沒有說明啊捷克憲法法院15名大法官如果要做決定的話要作為現審查的宣告的話最低出席人數是多少我如果沒有記錯的話是三分之二這報告有寫嗎我如果沒有記錯的話應該有提沒有完全沒有一個字都沒有而且捷克的憲法法院法是寫三分之二嗎"},{"start":616.175,"end":632.922,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":642.466,"end":643.266,"text":"他們來我們花多少錢?他們來我們花多少錢?來看一下齁"},{"start":669.622,"end":698.838,"text":"捷克憲法法院15位大法官來看一下你們附件裡面有的捷克憲法法院法最低出席人數10個人啊就是我剛剛說的三分之二做違憲的宣告要幾個人?最少要幾個人?九位對啊你們去考察回來了最重要的啟示應該去思考啊人家是直接寫人數欸他是不是直接寫人數?是"},{"start":701.204,"end":725.854,"text":"和我國的制度有何異同?你真的要處理的是處理這種事情嗎?當然不一樣啊!所以你們才說服人家說服國民有必要讓你們出去考察嗎?結果考察回來寫這種考察報告能看喔?真的能看喔?"},{"start":727.793,"end":752.72,"text":"我今天在這邊質詢我一定對我質詢的內容負責啊我也邀請啊所有對捷克憲法法院大家有興趣的人上去看一下我們司法院花的納稅人出去寫的考察報告看完了以後再冷靜的思考啊這個考察到底對我們對捷克憲法法院的運作啊產生了什麼啟示有什麼樣子的認識"},{"start":754.605,"end":765.919,"text":"主席站起來了,沒有關係啊。司法院其他的部分,我們等到預算審查的時候,我會藉由預算提案具體表明我的立場。」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝主席，有請副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘書長好。剛剛你在報告司法院預算的時候，我聽到你說了「零基預算」這個詞，但我其實嚇了一大跳。司法院在立法院進行預算報告的時候說你們採取零基預算的精神，我真的不曉得該怎麼形容，你們司法院在編預算的時候有認真編嗎？真的有認真編嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：還是把預算書當成寫作文比賽一樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們當然不敢不認真編，各單位在報上來的時候，我們都會有一定的機制……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我就直接問具體的事情。因為這樣講太抽象了，法律人在進行評論的時候要以事實為基礎。司法院歷年派員出國計畫，112年（兩年前）院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度等事項經費為85萬1,000元；113年院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度等事項經費86萬4,000元。112年去法國考察違憲審查，113年又去法國考察違憲審查，到114年院長繼續率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度95萬8,000元。","我看到什麼現象？錢愈來愈多啊！都是要去法國，都是要去法國考察違憲審查，連續3年直接複製貼上，結果你今天在這邊跟大家講用「零基預算」。我看不懂，因為這不是零基預算，零基預算的精神絕對不是這樣，現在司法院已經墮落到怎麼樣？是複製貼上預算了！所以我才說你們有沒有把預算書的編列當一回事，還是複製貼上就好了，還是反正上面寫的東西立法委員不會看？這些立法委員都是閉著眼睛在審預算的，舉手表決就通過了，沒有人在看預算書，也沒有人會去對去年編了什麼、前年編了什麼。今年編的跟去年編的，跟前年編的文字一模一樣。副秘書長，這樣子的預算書編列你認為負責任嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然憲法法庭所需要的是由大法官們去斟酌，赴哪一個國家去考察違憲，是由大法官他們認為需要而決定，這些金額並不相同……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，一樣一樣來講啦！所以你認為從司法院的觀點，連續3年要去法國考察違憲審查，是大法官的錯？他們報上來的需求，每一年院長都一定要去法國一次，因為法國的違憲審查制度變動得太劇烈了，如果沒有每年去法國，我國就沒有辦法精準地掌握法國違憲審查制度的變動，是這樣嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，關於憲法法庭這部分，幕僚運作是不是可以由書記廳……"],["黃委員國昌：我只問一件事，預算書的這個文字是誰寫的？是誰負責寫的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：由我們相關的業務廳去擬定，當然會報到……"],["黃委員國昌：這個預算書送出來之前你看過沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然會看……"],["黃委員國昌：你看了以後都沒有發現是複製貼上的？還是反正去年都可以複製貼上，今年複製貼上也沒有關係？所以就年年複製貼上，可以這樣幹噢！太難看了啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：連我們在小學教小學生的時候都會講「不要抄」，今年抄去年的，去年抄前年的，反正你寫要去哪裡一點都不重要嘛！錢拿到手以後再說嘛！我為什麼這樣講？你們每一年的出國預算愈來愈高，上千萬我全部整理出來了，結果說要去法國也沒有去法國，而是去捷克。許宗力率了6人團去捷克，我只問第一件事情，花多少錢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，依照我們業務廳的整理是114萬左右。"],["黃委員國昌：只有114萬嗎？沒有關係，會後把那114萬的錢怎麼花，具體核銷的項目送來我辦公室可以嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：去花了114萬以後覺得成效如何？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想大法官去考察這些相關國家的憲法制度，將來當然都會反映到他們的釋憲實務上作為參酌，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：所以成效如何？你還是沒有回答問題啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們認為成效應該可以達到期待吧。"],["黃委員國昌：成效可以達到期待？來、來、來！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我們一樣、一樣繼續往下面看，都不要講空的，成效有沒有達到期待，看了就知道。我既然要監督、要上來質詢，我一定負責任地把你們出國的考察報告全部都拜讀完了。我們來看看具體的成效是什麼，第一個，我看到預算書裡面根本沒有要赴捷克，你們的會後說明是，當初要編去法國，到後來覺得去捷克比較好，所以後來就去捷克了。因為可能是前面的經驗，讓你們養成了一個很壞的習慣，什麼很壞的習慣？就是預算書怎麼寫，一點都不重要，一點都不重要，因為事後可以自己變更。然後你們上面寫什麼？「簽奉核可變更計畫」，這是你們回給我的公文內容。這個「簽奉核可變更計畫」是誰核可？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是院長核可，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：所以院長核可他自己的計畫變更就對了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為事後跟這些相關的國家聯絡，當初所預計的不見得方便，所以因為情事的轉變，都有可能有這種情形，不是只有書記廳。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天你可以站在這邊好好地解釋，對於你的解釋，臺灣的公民能不能接受，大家心裡都有一把尺。去了9天，9天的考察行程，只有3天有公務，這個行程你會不會覺得很充實？充實感夠不夠？9天的頭1天、後1天要旅行，會辛苦，扣掉1天沒關係，7天只剩下3天有公務，這是考察行程，還是旅遊行程？坐飛機先坐到維也納去，再從維也納搭火車過去捷克。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，考察不同的地方中間會卡到假日，會有行程、路程這些……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為這些報告你們通常放在司法院的網站，但會去看的人很少，不過我們當立法委員要監督，我就一定要上去看，我看完的結果是這樣：9天的出國考察行程，上面真的有公務的是3天，這到底是考察，還是旅遊？一樣，交給社會加以判斷。","我看完了這個報告以後，你們說要借鏡捷克憲法法院的運作方式，借鏡了捷克憲法法院的運作方式，得到最大的心得是什麼？捷克憲法法院的運作方式，我們花了納稅人這些錢，有好幾個大法官去考察了，回來以後對我國最有啟示、最有「示唆」的點是什麼？司法院有人可以說明嗎？還是因為你們都沒去，所以也沒人可以說明？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們這些報告都在網站上面有，主秘也沒有提醒……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，我就簡單請教一件事，這個報告你們真的有人讀嗎？真的有人讀嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然，我本身是沒有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：當然，我知道你人多事忙。請問主管廳的廳長，你有看過嗎？"],["楊廳長皓清：報告委員，有。"],["黃委員國昌：你有看過嘛？"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你看完了以後，覺得對我國最大的啟示是什麼？"],["楊廳長皓清：跟委員報告，捷克憲法法院跟我國一樣有15個大法官……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣都有15個大法官嘛。"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。在這個報告裡面有沒有說明，捷克憲法法院15名大法官如果要做決定的話，要做違憲審查的宣告的話，最低出席人數是多少？"],["楊廳長皓清：我如果沒有記錯的話，是三分之二。"],["黃委員國昌：這報告有寫嗎？"],["楊廳長皓清：我如果沒有記錯的話，應該有提。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，完全沒有！一個字都沒有！"],["楊廳長皓清：是，不好意思。"],["黃委員國昌：而且捷克的憲法法院法是寫三分之二嗎？是寫三分之二嗎？"],["楊廳長皓清：就我的理解是這樣，如果有錯誤的部分，我會後再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個我就跟你講，所以我為什麼說去了捷克憲法法院回來以後，內容很空洞啊……"],["楊廳長皓清：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：28頁的出國報告，26頁是行程摘要，未來展望只有半頁，至於其他相關的法規，報告裡面沒有寫，全部在附件。"],["楊廳長皓清：報告委員，我可以跟委員報告一件事嗎？這個在司法外交上是一個很大的突破，因為112年院長率團去以後，在今年5月捷克憲法法院帶領著院長跟兩位大法官……"],["黃委員國昌：他們來，我們花多少錢？"],["楊廳長皓清：這個部分會後我們會提供給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：他們來，我們花多少錢？"],["楊廳長皓清：他們的機票完全自付，我們幫他們出住宿費及內陸交通費，完全都在國際法學交流基金會裡面來支出。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下，捷克憲法法院15位大法官，你們附件裡面有附捷克憲法法院法，最低出席人數是10個人。"],["楊廳長皓清：就是我剛剛說的三分之二。"],["黃委員國昌：做違憲的宣告要幾個人？最少要幾個人？"],["楊廳長皓清：9位。"],["黃委員國昌：對呀！你們去考察回來了，最重要的啟示應該去思考啊，人家是直接寫人數。它是不是直接寫人數？"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["黃委員國昌：跟我國的制度有何異同？你真的要處理的是處理這種事情嘛！"],["楊廳長皓清：我想每個國家大法官任命的方式、來源不同……"],["黃委員國昌：當然不一樣啊！"],["楊廳長皓清：是，所以在比較的時候我們……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們才說服人家、說服國民有必要讓你們出去考察，結果考察回來寫這種考察報告，能看喔？真的能看喔？我今天在這邊質詢，我一定對我質詢的內容負責，我也邀請所有對捷克憲法法院有興趣的人，上去看一下司法院花了納稅人的錢出去所寫的考察報告，看完了以後再冷靜地思考，這個考察到底讓我們對捷克憲法法院的運作產生了什麼啟示？有什麼樣子的認識？主席站起來了，沒有關係，司法院其他的部分，等到預算審查的時候，我會藉由預算提案具體表明我的立場。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝黃副秘書長。","由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，現在先確定議事錄。請問各位，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","接下來我們邀請陳委員俊宇詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}