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敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":2283.086,"end":2286.309,"text":"機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2298.206,"end":2299.527,"text":"我們現在請登記的第一位委員黃國昌委員進行詢答"},{"start":2337.394,"end":2341.678,"text":"謝謝主席是麻煩有請立法院周秘書長還有司法院吳秘書長"},{"start":2362.205,"end":2388.57,"text":"兩位秘書長早中秘書長我們大概了解您基於在立法院可以是屬於行政幕僚黨的一個身份所以對於今天這種高度政治性跟牽涉到有關於憲法跟法律解釋的問題您在報告裡面實在不太方便表達太強烈的看法不過在您"},{"start":2390.8,"end":2402.44,"text":"覺得方便的範圍內還是想請教你一下民主進步黨的黨團總召柯建民說這個急問急答當然是違憲的您贊不贊成"},{"start":2406.158,"end":2423.547,"text":"發言委員在這個裡面是各個國家對於憲政的設計並不完全一樣啦舉例來講法國憲法它是明在18條有明定的一個規範那美國的國情的報告當然報告總統就離開了啦那我們的設計裡面我跟各位這樣報告其實憲法徵修條文的時候把這一個"},{"start":2433.852,"end":2438.901,"text":"國民大會的之前移轉到立法院來他是後面那一段是沒有的"},{"start":2439.898,"end":2465.416,"text":"只有向立法院做國情報告．會被檢討意見跟事實節目刪除了當然我事實上是寫有意審略．我直接就說事實上是這樣寫．但是當時在第二章之一．對修法有五個條文．當時在提案的委員本身是國民大會代表出身的"},{"start":2466.296,"end":2488.133,"text":"所以他就把那個後面就加了這些但是在委員在審查的時候又加了一個後面的第二項又總統性的答覆大概我只跟各位委員報告這一個現行的條文的背景跟其他別的國家的設計上本來就不會一致的所以委員所提的案"},{"start":2488.954,"end":2513.402,"text":"是要依序及時答覆或是即問即答以幕僚的立場上未必表示意見可由審查會或到大會來由各位委員斟酌審視的一個考量那怎麼結果有行政上的配合那當然在以立法院幕僚立場一定是全力配合支持謝謝我理解啊秘書長"},{"start":2514.602,"end":2530.46,"text":"您在質詢上未必表示意見我相信委員大家都同意也不會為難你不過我提供一些背景的資訊給秘書長做參考現在在高喊說即問即答當然違憲的柯建民"},{"start":2531.499,"end":2556.537,"text":"之前在2012年的時候他是在野黨三黨聯合提案邀請馬英九進行國情報告當時的柯建民是怎麼講的當時的柯建民說馬英九到立法院進行國情報告必須採取疑問疑答否則根本沒有意義秘書長你會不會覺得這前後的主張差太多了"},{"start":2566.684,"end":2575.868,"text":"其實不僅僅是柯建民這樣講當時還在當立法委員的潘孟安後來是賴清德的競選總幹事當年他也是講"},{"start":2577.182,"end":2596.623,"text":"盼總統展現民主誠意接受立委及問及答而且在賴清德當選了以後他們要接受訪問公開表示備詢與否會尊重朝野協商就尊重立法院的決定我希望賴清德總統當選人能夠記得"},{"start":2599.065,"end":2614.959,"text":"他的牧羊長．他的總幹事．跟社會大眾所做出來的莊嚴承諾我下一個問題是跟秘書長的質詢就有關係我相信對立法院的經費使用要公開透明這個也是韓院長之前所宣誓的"},{"start":2615.74,"end":2639.498,"text":"但因為我接到一個檢舉我接到檢舉我覺得很納悶所以我那個時候接到檢舉的時候委員不在立法院我就傳遞給那個時候還在立法院的陳江華委員陳江華委員跟立法院的秘書處詢問說我們在2023年本院就是立法院構置了中華民國立法院專攻9"},{"start":2640.859,"end":2662.608,"text":"那些酒送到哪裡去了是不是可以請秘書處提供資料結果我們當時的秘書處的回函是未一遍提供秘書長你覺得這種事情有什麼國家機密嗎我們花納稅人的錢買酒酒送到哪裡去跟他所知還未一遍提供秘書長您的看法呢"},{"start":2663.626,"end":2668.689,"text":"這個就是我要給你肯定的你上任了以後作風就跟以前不一樣了"},{"start":2683.678,"end":2701.69,"text":"我發函去要的資料你馬上就提供但我覺得非常訝異的是什麼我覺得非常訝異的是我們去年立法院花納稅人的錢做金門酒廠的專攻酒1200瓶秘書長你知不知道最後一個月送掉多少最後一個月送掉948瓶"},{"start":2708.717,"end":2727.969,"text":"我光看那個數字就知道啊那個酒消化不完啊最後一個月喔要離職以前喔送了948瓶出去啊立法院跟我們國際的貴賓有禮物上面往來的需要我相信納稅人都會接受但"},{"start":2729.111,"end":2749.57,"text":"當你錢是這樣子花的話我們都要對人民負責那我相信我也不太確定今年是還會不會訂這個專攻酒那訂專攻酒那要訂多少瓶我可能就是提醒秘書長提醒秘書長斟酌一下以前的花納稅的錢的這個專攻酒到底"},{"start":2752.27,"end":2774.838,"text":"是怎麼用的為什麼我會提這個事啊因為我就接到檢舉啊檢舉當監察院院長跑下去高雄輔選啊已經很誇張了結果他去高雄輔選的車上竟然有立法院的專攻酒那大家就搞不清楚啊檢舉人員在問啊說我們立法院是錢太多是不是監察院院長跑到高雄去輔選已經很扯啦"},{"start":2781.165,"end":2799.498,"text":"結果輔選帶下去的伴手禮車上是立法院的專攻酒秘書長你知不知道是怎麼回事?因為我二月五號才來的我以前在當副理長之前大概因為酒裡面大概都有委員大概都有一個"},{"start":2800.399,"end":2804.921,"text":"去年開始就沒有了啦去年開始委員要買酒要送的話你自己要花錢去買啦"},{"start":2812.782,"end":2837.135,"text":"因為我記得我在當副秘書長的時候我所了解是大概是這樣沒有關係啦秘書長我跟你說啦這是前一任的事我也不會為難你我提這些例子出來提這些檢舉出來只是希望讓秘書長知道也請秘書長轉告院長納稅人的錢不可以這樣花院長公務往來有需要要送酒我相信納稅人會同意但是"},{"start":2838.135,"end":2848.836,"text":"如果是按照上一屆這種濫發的方式甚至監察院院長下去輔選戴著專空酒還是立法院的這件事情就稍微太離譜了"},{"start":2850.285,"end":2869.898,"text":"好 我們接下來請司法院的秘書長秘書長 我上次質詢的時候我跟你公開檢舉我問說請問行政庭的庭長可以施壓迴避要求法官上千自請迴避嗎我那天質詢完了以後高等法院"},{"start":2870.858,"end":2896.802,"text":"馬上發了一個新聞稿說我在立法院的質詢是純屬誤會我們行政庭的庭長沒有我所說施壓的情勢我們分兩段這個新聞稿真的寫得太藝術了他的意思是哪裡哪裡有誤會他是沒有要法官去自請迴避還是有要法官自請迴避但是只是請他自請迴避沒有施壓到底是哪一個"},{"start":2900.311,"end":2920.318,"text":"向委員說明,那麼我們有接到這個就是上一次執行之後我們有請高院提出這個報告那麼高院有提出這個相關的一些資料那麼我們會"},{"start":2923.045,"end":2929.485,"text":"會加以釐清那個高岳提給你們的資料是不是可以提供給大家"},{"start":2930.983,"end":2955.286,"text":"這沒有什麼秘密啊這個這個我們這個就是說這個在憲政運作之下齁各院之間有一定的權責啦齁那都要按理言者來秘書長我先提一下各院有權責這個我同意喔現在本院吶包括我個人沒有要代替法官審判但是"},{"start":2956.597,"end":2983.016,"text":"這一種在審判外的行政施壓是全體國人最痛恨的行為立法院當然可以監督阿按照現在高院給你們提供的資料高院喔發新聞稿指著我的鼻子說我純屬誤會那就要跟大家講清楚到底是哪裡誤會阿行政庭長有沒有下去要法官叫他自請迴避 有還是沒有"},{"start":2984.328,"end":3005.942,"text":"這個我們會本一前者來釐清啦這麼簡單的問題到現在都還不知道這個各院齁 院紀之間有一定的這個依之前齁依前者來處理啦所以你的意思是什麼因為院紀之間有前者所以我今天在這邊不能問這個事情全體國人沒有資格知道這個當然我們"},{"start":3007.663,"end":3033.954,"text":"任何作為都要接受檢驗對阿所以我現在就在檢驗請你回答阿那因為這個都涉及到相關人的權利義務啦齁那這個在整個我們民主法治化的過程齁這個也要合乎一定比例原則來來加以理解請問我剛剛請教你阿這個行政庭長有沒有下去叫這個法官自請迴避這件事情是哪裡違反比例原則阿"},{"start":3034.874,"end":3058.736,"text":"這個我們會來釐清會釐清需要多久的時間這個我們有一定的這個我們會適時來釐清適時是多久半年一年還是兩年我們當然會合乎時宜合乎時宜是多久一個月夠不夠這個我看因為這個涉及到每個人的他的權利義務啦那該進行的程序我們還是要進行"},{"start":3060.598,"end":3066.571,"text":"同意啊 你該進行的程序要進行嘛那我只問你要多久啊 連這個都答不出來喔這個是個驗"},{"start":3068.086,"end":3090.872,"text":"我們司法院有一定運作我們會當然就按照你們運作的規則你就給大家一個答案你要多久嗎這個不是我們會按照我們的這個本一權責嘛那當然我們的做法也一定要接受檢驗嘛對所以本於你的權責是要多久然後你說要接受檢驗我站在這邊問你又不回答在那邊跟我打高空"},{"start":3092.328,"end":3108.607,"text":"我問的問題很直接而且我不覺得我問的問題有哪裡違反比例原則就這麼簡單的事情有沒有叫他下去自取迴避有還是沒有這個就涉及到院紀之間喔司法院有婚內的權責要釐清嘛這不屬於司法院的權責嗎"},{"start":3109.875,"end":3110.836,"text":"主席你應該是算蠻中立的在聽吧"},{"start":3127.546,"end":3147.712,"text":"有,因為這個東西跟個案審判沒有,不是事實層面的東西,這怎麼會是院紀之間的那個呢?這不是吧,這個是你們就應該處理的事情啊。數碼院也有一套穩定運作的模式啊。我知道院紀是因為法官獨立審判,你們不能介入嘛。你不能介入的是獨立審判,並不是說就這個。"},{"start":3153.134,"end":3162.5,"text":"所以我就問你處理流程要多久 有這麼難回答嗎你當然要本於前者來處理我現在就問你要多久啊這不是數學題的問題你們要求法官一審什麼時候要終結 多久要終結 要不然就要管考"},{"start":3181.751,"end":3210.064,"text":"你們可以要求法官 立法院不能要求你們喔?所以你就是沒有要回答這個問題就對了?那個 這樣好不好 就是說 因為他 就是秘書長這邊一直沒有回答秘書長可不可以給那個黃委員一個確定的時間大概多久內你可以給他回覆?這個不是數學題啦 我覺得在我們一個這麼正...所以按照你的說法啦齁"},{"start":3211.383,"end":3221.012,"text":"司法院本於自己的權責我調查要半年要一年要兩年要三年立法院都不能問社會大眾也不能問是這樣嗎"},{"start":3222.765,"end":3227.267,"text":"所以發生這麼誇張的事情立法院不能監督?對嘛 所以我現在就要請教你嘛監督這件事情是不是立法院可以監督的?"},{"start":3248.16,"end":3258.776,"text":"因為時間的關係你們法官內部可以搞這種事情立法院不能監督社會大眾不能問司法院這麼大我們當然要接受社會各界的檢驗這個一定"},{"start":3260.798,"end":3283.152,"text":"你怎麼接受檢驗 連這麼簡單的問題都不回答要給你時間 你又不講時間按照你今天的說法 就是要搞多久就混多久嘛主席 我一定尊重後面的委員他完全在浪費大家的時間嘛 他有回答問題嗎如果啦 我這樣講啦 如果容許這樣子的回答以後大家都不用尋答了啦"},{"start":3292.077,"end":3304.542,"text":"每一個都說願記有願記之間的權責彼此之間要相互尊重什麼時候要給答案這個我沒有辦法回答願記之間要彼此尊重這個是不是這樣就是說我們就很明確"},{"start":3307.643,"end":3326.335,"text":"司法院對這問題根本就不回答我想這就是結論嘛 那我們再時間再拖下去也沒有這個結論我不同意所謂你所說要回答嘛我看就這樣齁 我們就不要再爭執了不要耽誤到後面委員的時間所以我並不是說不回答 我的回答就是這樣所以也不要記下結論 不要記下結果"},{"start":3328.877,"end":3357.156,"text":"不是啊 我這樣講好了啦如果我們放任這樣子的事情的話以後大家都不要監督了大家統統不要問本願本於全責願績之間要相互尊重所以你問的問題我無法回答但我一定會接受社會大眾的檢驗你在講什麼空話我們會後請他們說明好了這比較不好意思我們會後請他們說明OK好 尊重主席好 謝謝那我們接下來請審法會委員發言"},{"start":3374.83,"end":3386.859,"text":"主席我們先請這個吳秘書長我們請秘書長我們司法院還有司法院秘書長還是立法院司法院秘書長吳秘書長周秘書長稍等"},{"start":3395.42,"end":3413.988,"text":"委員好吳議長好辛苦啦齁我還是回到對我來講我還是回到今天的主題啦齁這個今天的主題是有關中華民國總統到立法院來進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議今天我們這個司法法制委員會開這個是憲政層次的議題在我們這個委員會裡面來討論我覺得也頗具意義"},{"start":3423.988,"end":3433.745,"text":"但是我只是先請就是說我們等一下討論一定會有很多牽涉到憲政的問題對於憲法的看法那這部分吳佑南你可以回答嗎"},{"start":3435.134,"end":3459.554,"text":"因為我們當然不是憲法解釋機關啦,憲法解釋機關絕對不會來,也不用來立法院啦。但是就以你個人的法律可以用你個人的立場回答嗎?這個,我們有提出書面,書面這個說明,那我今天簡要再說明啦。不用說明啦,我的意思是說,我等一下如果問到相關的憲政問題你可以回答嗎?憲政的看法。就是說,"},{"start":3460.953,"end":3486.743,"text":"就看什麼命題什麼命題這個我請周秘書長一起好了因為這個有關憲法的解釋都不是你們兩位的職權所以今天請兩位來做什麼解釋也都是我們個人你我他我們三個人對於這個憲法的看法依我們自己個人的我們過去的瞭解對憲法的看法"},{"start":3487.583,"end":3512.702,"text":"真正誰能夠這樣解釋只有這個憲法法庭可以解釋其他我們大概都沒有辦法解釋那今天這個問題這樣子我想從剛才討論還有這個今天所定的主題我想我們還是清楚要不然大家一直搞不清楚說到底好像總統很怕說來立法院被質詢是不是因為這樣子的問題政治問題呢我想我們還是回到清楚的把幾個層次把它弄清楚"},{"start":3513.923,"end":3535.609,"text":"我想今天我個人就四個程式來跟你們討論第一個就是現行憲法的規定徵修條文的規定現行憲法怎麼規定的第二個憲法下來就是說在現行憲法之下我們現行的法律我們的立法委員執權行使法就有關這個這個總統到立法院來做國情報告有什麼樣的規定憲法完的法律嗎"},{"start":3537.13,"end":3549.503,"text":"接下來我們就看憲政慣例過去幾年歷任總統所做的國情報告大概有什麼樣的狀況最後如果這些東西都看完了我們就來看憲政原理到底中華民國的這個"},{"start":3553.956,"end":3581.469,"text":"但總統是他應該誰應該向誰負責這個我們就分這四個層次來這樣子就很清楚了齁才不會在那邊搞得好像說今天這個議題變成一個政治議題我們今天就變成無聊一點讓媒體這邊覺得無聊一點我們就來談談實際上我們這個法令上面的相關的規定就現行憲法的規定啦齁這個總統做國情報告這個這個兩位在書面報告上面都有寫嘛這個就是憲法徵求條文"},{"start":3582.83,"end":3603.27,"text":"第4條第3項對不對那立法委員可不可以可不可以質詢這個我們先來看我們回頭來看現在立法院的質詢行政院長要到立法院立法委員可以質詢行政院長這是法律的規定還是憲法的規定來我們先請活字典號稱活字典我們周秘書長"},{"start":3606.941,"end":3617.09,"text":"憲法中修條件第三條第二項第一款是有規定的有規定的行政院向立法院負責然後第二款明定"},{"start":3618.137,"end":3632.945,"text":"對,所以在461號解釋也有這一個有更詳細的闡述也就是說你立法委員要質詢誰不是你立法院高興我們自己立法說我可以質詢誰就可以質詢誰這個要依據憲法我們質詢行政院長這個是依據憲法規定的對不對憲法給立法委員這個職權對不對對"},{"start":3641.369,"end":3653.493,"text":"這個我們就憲法程式這樣來談了所以今天我們立法委員要質詢總統先不要說什麼一問一答先不要說什麼到底是要一問一答還是綜合答覆光我們要質詢總統這件事情我們就要看憲法有沒有授權對不對這跟審委員報告齁是我剛才也有說明過因為我們現行的好我知道你剛才說明我很仔細的聽啦我很仔細聽"},{"start":3668.703,"end":3697.165,"text":"再來這個我們的這個講到剛剛講到說總統來做國情報告按照第4條第3款因為也第3項我們聰明秘書長因為你身份關係所以你在書面的這個報告裡面寫得非常非常的含蓄啦齁因為你也不能夠得罪立法委員在這裡面講說哪個委員所提的這個是不符合憲法法理的你只能說這個饒婦趣味這個這個頗有意思這個這個大家政治看看大家的政治協商"},{"start":3698.877,"end":3720.265,"text":"所以事實上來對不起黃委員黃委員對不起我在質詢你請聲量小一點齁這個我想齁這個所以我們回到這個憲法第4條第3項齁這個憲法第4條第3項事實上在2000年有有第6次修憲的時候他有做修改對不對"},{"start":3723.402,"end":3723.903,"text":"主席"},{"start":3744.393,"end":3773.255,"text":"提供建言提供建言 檢討國事提供建言提供建言 檢討國事提供建言 對但是在事前刑事法在修的時候我們在不是先不要講刑事檢查我們講修憲2000年修憲第6次修憲的時候修憲給我們一過來的時候是有立法院以每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告後面的聽取建言不見了是為什麼不見了是議事委員不小心用綠可白把它塗掉了嗎還是國大代表寫的時候抄的時候欸抄到漏了"},{"start":3775.353,"end":3784.123,"text":"報告陳委員 我不太了解他修憲當時的這個你剛剛自己報告就有講你只是不好意思明講而已他就是有意忽略嘛 對不對他就是"},{"start":3785.157,"end":3806.615,"text":"為什麼把這個拿掉這個在憲法修憲一定有一定的道理嘛大家都念法律的大家都都是這方面的人這個修憲的時候他刻意的把聽取建言拿掉他就是有他的意義嘛對不對就是說總統來向立法院他做了做了這個這個報告之後原本的聽取建言在憲法院聽取建言四個字拿掉了嘛對不對"},{"start":3810.233,"end":3833.649,"text":"但是如果拿掉我跟你講就憲法這樣子也沒有關係啦他只是說變成憲法沒有授權沒有授權立法院可以提請提請建議但是立法院可不可以我們按照立法委員行使法下來看立法委員行使法也可以我們從立法院行使法也可以來看我們目前的立法委員行使法依目前的立法委員行使法可以一問一答嗎議長依現行 現行"},{"start":3841.712,"end":3861.253,"text":"我剛才也稍微 也在場所以我剛才有跟參議員報告第15條之四他所寫的文字上就是把引用國民大會當時處理的方式加進來了我剛才有報告沒有錯對就是這樣所以他是怎麼樣引用了之後他是怎麼樣的內容"},{"start":3865.301,"end":3889.453,"text":"總統同意我唸給你聽啦他說總統同意時得再做補充報告對不對第一個他也要總統同意對不對按照現行的按照現行的這個立法委員執行行事法執權行事法對不對第45條第4他說立法委員與總統國情報告完畢後得可以得就不明瞭之處提出問題"},{"start":3891.257,"end":3909.907,"text":"然後後面就說就前向委員這發言經總統同意時得綜合綜合再做補充說明對不對第一個總統要不要回答是看總統按照法依法嘛依法他是經總統同意如果總統不同意他也就不用回答了對不對"},{"start":3912.37,"end":3914.231,"text":"所以不管是依現行的憲法還是依"},{"start":3937.535,"end":3945.509,"text":"憲法之下的立法委員行使法、職權行使法現在這所謂一問一答都是不對的,都是不符合現在的憲法不符現在的法律嘛,對不對"},{"start":3949.602,"end":3975.314,"text":"那接下來當然修法有一大堆修法提案修法提案我們另論修法如果過了我們沒話講鼻子摸摸該釋憲的釋憲由大法官會議解釋立法委員立這種法憲法合不合憲法這個來釋憲但是如果在還沒有修法之前我們按照這個來就是我們就是依照能夠依照立法院行使法行使就已經不錯了對不對那我們再看過去的慣例過去慣例"},{"start":3978.646,"end":4003.137,"text":"我們從台灣民選總統開始李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統有到立法有哪一個總統到立法院做過這個國情報告嗎李前總統到國民大會是有啦後面的總統到現在目前沒有在2000年修憲之前嘛他依法他要到國民大會去做國情報告啊對不對"},{"start":4004.318,"end":4009.69,"text":"所以之後我們在憲政慣例上面我們也沒有即使我們連總統來做國情報告而且不是總統不來喔"},{"start":4013.39,"end":4035.311,"text":"那時候陳水扁當總統的時候有兩次他希望能夠他自己主動說要來立法院做國情報告結果那時候的多數的國民黨否決了說不要來啊那時候還引起法律的爭議對不對中秘書長你應該很清楚吧你這個活字臉那時候他們說依法依法這個總統不能夠主動原本的法律依法總統不能夠主動說要來立法院做國情報告對不對"},{"start":4038.411,"end":4047.793,"text":"因為兩次的9393跟93來做軍購的報告國統綱領他自己主動說我要來跟立法院報告 立法院說不要那時候國民黨多數說不要 那時候你總統沒有資格 沒有權力主動的來做報告 對不對你想對不對我反正就否決掉 就沒有來報告不為難你啦 你是幕僚長 你也不是這個"},{"start":4067.025,"end":4085.388,"text":"那所以齁我時間也到了啦齁我不要說佔大家的時間啦憲政慣例也沒有啦最後齁我就跟大家講就是關於我們講這個憲政原理這個我們大家如果念政治系的第一堂課第一層政治學第一堂課畫一個三角形權利分立"},{"start":4086.397,"end":4115.328,"text":"check and balance哪一個跟哪一個怎麼制衡哪一個跟哪一個怎麼制衡我們總統民選我們為什麼行政院長要對立法院負責為什麼內閣制的內閣總理大臣要對國會負責總統不用對國會負責總統對誰負責跟立法院一樣對選民負責這個是政治原理的基本所以不是說我們修憲的時候啊讀後總統不讓總統來立法院不是因為民選的總統他就是對選民負責他不對立法院負責的"},{"start":4116.792,"end":4135.609,"text":"所以對他來立法院我們修憲的時候我們還是尊重立法院的職權讓總統可以來這裡做執政報告再就國外的慣例這個周秘書長在書面報告裡面寫得很清楚美國人家做國情報告之後總統講完了就走了你們自己在裡面要怎麼切斥你們的事情"},{"start":4136.957,"end":4151.129,"text":"在法國,法國號稱是我台灣的辦總統是號稱跟法國最接近法國總統來完了之後可以辯論但是等總統離開之後你們自己兩黨自己政黨下去辯論總統不在場連聽都不聽了還在那裡讓你一問一答"},{"start":4154.964,"end":4170.93,"text":"所以我覺得今天這個談判這個題目也很好讓國人大家來釐清從每一個層面 憲法層面 法律層面到憲政慣例 到憲政原理我們一一把它講清楚好不好 謝謝大家好 謝謝請回那我們接下來請謝榮介委員發言來"},{"start":4195.372,"end":4205.262,"text":"總統到立法院來報告這是我們這一次算是最好的一個時機就是朝野幾乎都也不排斥"},{"start":4206.53,"end":4234.188,"text":"但是我個人阿 認為說 詢答的方式阿應該給予元首適度的尊重跟空間這個一個尊重 那就看黨團最後協商怎麼樣但是這次是歷屆以來 氣氛最好我想賴清德副總統他也不會排斥 願意到立法院來那 另外一個問題我請教吳秘書長"},{"start":4237.29,"end":4252.159,"text":"你經常講這個願績之間要相互尊重那上個禮拜五大法官的事先說無期徒刑假釋以後那再犯本來要關門二十五年他說違憲那你說違憲呢應該要回到立法院來訂定那個刑的執行你不是啊"},{"start":4264.141,"end":4278.472,"text":"你大法官的職域你就寫啦 如果再犯 他是犯了5年以下 那就關10年 5年到10年關幾年 擺明就是剝奪了立法院的立法權嘛本身在這嚴重的抗議啦 希望你回去喔 跟大法官講一下 你不是說院紀要相互尊重嗎"},{"start":4292.944,"end":4293.805,"text":"這個像委員說明這個可以說明這個"},{"start":4299.502,"end":4327.362,"text":"本院大法官執掌解釋憲法．並主持憲法法庭行使審判前這個是規定啦這個是有明文規定所以這個就個案如何處理那大法官他當然有一定的解釋文車已經把你表達嚴重的抗議啦你還可以專告讓他聽啦周秘書長正人必先正極"},{"start":4329.343,"end":4329.984,"text":"那你覺得有沒有問題啊?"},{"start":4357.769,"end":4370.057,"text":"我跟你講我本期喔對於這個所謂的裝修費啦跟買這個家具的費用啊我是不合交啦為什麼我看到會怕一千塊的東西變八千塊如果我到研究室看到那個東西是這麼貴我每天心情就會做壞那你認為本院啊因為啊我問了"},{"start":4387.335,"end":4395.988,"text":"簡調幾乎不敢到立法院來調查那本席可不可以提出今天法務部長沒有來可不可以正式告發"},{"start":4398.73,"end":4417.539,"text":"因為要有這個數據上真的有才有很多啊有很多因為要告發的大概你說當事人本身他有沒有這樣的一個沒有就告發然後他們到立法院來查你願意配合嗎"},{"start":4419.674,"end":4444.756,"text":"因為我跟謝委員這樣報告我在院裡面的情況給謝委員瞭解因為你如果說告是當事人有需要搜索當然立法院會配合的處理這裡面以前都有歷在你說檢察官認為他如果今天立法院不能政級你讓每個部會到這邊來"},{"start":4446.377,"end":4455.662,"text":"我們要求每個部會怎麼做,我們要去揭弊,我們要挑出部會的問題,你不覺得很嚴肅,我會覺得很嚴肅我知道,我知道,謝謝你,謝謝你的指教,我們大概,我覺得秘書長以後,當然我對各個單位,當然我們都會有非常謹慎的在督導"},{"start":4470.91,"end":4498.144,"text":"因為從法上來講當然我要監督所屬從組織法規定秘書長的職務上當然監督所屬的職員陳院長之命監督當然以我目前的既然接了這個秘書長當然各部門我大概都會很審慎的去督導那謝謝你的指導我大概在秘書長的一天之間一天之下我跟你講在這個月到月底以前"},{"start":4499.304,"end":4526.332,"text":"我請秘書長你清查一下大概什麼案件若不然我四月份我就會正式告發這樣好不好所以我會去了解 謝謝你我要一定證人 證集才能證人嘛在這邊幹立法委員我對著部會所長挑起他們的問題跟毛病的時候他們私底下在笑我們立法院啊"},{"start":4528.523,"end":4550.794,"text":"我講這樣你了解嗎?謝謝你,謝謝你。媒體議員拜託秘書長請紮一下,一定要有這個法律,一定要有文藝改革這就是你最大的後盾跟靠山好,謝謝。請請會把這裏的後勤班、三部都抓出來立法院如果請起,這裏保護人不夠後備來啦好不好?謝謝指導,謝謝"},{"start":4555.598,"end":4580.894,"text":"秘書長你不會查的話我幫你查還可以我們先做一個宣告因為今天委員提出臨時提案稍後我們一前例在早上11點的時候處理那如果到時候委員正在詢答那我們在該位委員詢答完畢之後就進行臨時提案那我們接下來繼續請莊委員瑞雄進行詢答"},{"start":4588.074,"end":4592.896,"text":"謝謝主席 有請兩位秘書長兩大秘書長我想我來繼續延續剛剛其他委員的一些詢問來就教兩位秘書長針對總統到立法院來進行這個國情的一個報告其實這個從去年的總統大選前就熱議到現在這個各種論點"},{"start":4611.181,"end":4626.114,"text":"都互有攻防其實也經過相當的一個討 充分的一個討論其實最喜歡讓希望這個總統尤其是賴清德總統到立法院來這個地方做國情報告的我看就是"},{"start":4627.745,"end":4646.908,"text":"曾經講過一生只監督一個人這個謝榮介跟他的必雕所以我知道他很期待但是我要提出來的就是說從1992年修憲以後按照《中華民國憲法》政修條文第11條第三項國民大會集會的時候得聽取"},{"start":4647.949,"end":4668.157,"text":"總統的國情報告並檢討國事提供建言．如果一年內沒有去集會．以後總統召集臨時會為之．並不受憲法第30條的一個限制我就來請教兩位秘書長就是說其實憲法就是國之根本大法憲法是一個抽象性的一個規範就一個國家體制的一個運作"},{"start":4669.856,"end":4671.057,"text":"約束執政者的權利"},{"start":4699.796,"end":4713.885,"text":"多有它的重要意義啊尤其涉及到機關之間行政部門它的用語還有涉及到跟對立法院之間相互之間權益關係啊秘書長你是很隱晦的說用語不同這個其實是嚴重啦所謂的用語不同就是說你如果給我違反這就叫做違憲了啦那不是這樣說那內行人就說內行威嘛"},{"start":4727.684,"end":4742.157,"text":"其實因為我教立法系數有教幾十年啦是嘛那因為的情況上其實這一位一位我今天來報告來委員會叫我來報告是建議啦"},{"start":4742.717,"end":4746.4,"text":"是啦 我聽你的意見 我跟你說 我絕對不會說我給你 你這算先輩 我跟你問我沒關係 我比你 我在典館 你在地 上堆下我不會這樣淫威啦但是啊 總是啊 在這 從你的意見講出來 這就沒關係憲法跟運氣之間 一個字 不同 那都有它特殊的意義啦"},{"start":4769.997,"end":4790.616,"text":"我認為這兩位秘書長應該可以贊同這樣的一個說法那其實你再去把它看看你看到了隔年1993年1月4號國民大會第二次在會議的時候李登輝前總統去建立總統向國民大會國情報告的一個慣例在1996年總統職權以後每年都去"},{"start":4793.966,"end":4796.208,"text":"1992年到1999年去了7次通常國大代表發表建言完畢以後李前總統去做綜合的一個答覆當時候我相信秘書長應該很清楚嘛什麼急問急答必須答覆這樣強制性的規定也沒有啦"},{"start":4816.601,"end":4829.332,"text":"第一個 憲法也沒規定啦第二個 翻遍你的條文也沒有這樣的一個規定啦那在李登輝前總統繼任以後到第一次全民直選之前當時的國民大會能握有總統的選舉罷免跟修憲的權利啊並且由國民大會中國大代表來提出選出當時的總統是否要對國民大會來負責這當然看法會有所不同啊但是在規範上啊"},{"start":4842.142,"end":4851.065,"text":"其實沒有這樣的規定 但李前總統能基於尊重 前往國民大會去進行國情的一個報告那國民大會當初也沒有 我請到總秘書長就說 南部齁 也沒關係 我們看白的國家有這樣的規定嗎不然你跟他說白的國家 夠了 說總統去 說我們來疑問一打 你還要看過這個我是比較比較沒學識啦 沒見聞啦 但是我很少看過"},{"start":4870.123,"end":4895.691,"text":"我們大概我們法治局有做了今天的我來做專題報告我們法治局有特別做了一個表我想中委也看過所以在裡面就已經對於有對於國情這一個報告的部分大概幾個國家當然中委可以看裡面很清楚在裡面"},{"start":4896.351,"end":4900.392,"text":"每一個人問政風格 個性不同 我就不能這樣 什麼我問問你 叫我去看 有沒有啦 你覺得看過啦 我才請教啦 沒有我幫你洗奶啦"},{"start":4915.697,"end":4919.439,"text":"為什麼我在專題報告這個部分 因為其實專員我們也非常久在院裡面我只這樣說明 因為如果以我個人在教書的立場"},{"start":4933.986,"end":4934.707,"text":"我這樣說明啦因為"},{"start":4962.488,"end":4987.013,"text":"現行的秘書長是是秘書長是你叫他立法院的秘書長你若要用這個方式我是跟你尊重喔你不要保護秘書長他後來都惡劣說你立法院的秘書長都這樣說你自己去看喔不是啊有那樣的事情欸總委我這樣報告你這樣不行啦我知道我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":4992.81,"end":4999.654,"text":"我問他問過沒有 他給我講五分鐘給我容許五分鐘時間給我講這樣比較會中秘書長你這樣比較會中秘書長你這樣不行啦 你是韓國瑜叫你來用這部的喔沒有 謝謝你 不然我對你們的尊重 我也有脾氣欸 你們這樣才會中我問你有沒有 你給我講叫我去看 什麼我放你裡面知道啦"},{"start":5017.634,"end":5038.781,"text":"我先息怒一下,那可以直接回答嗎?沒有啦,我不是息怒啦,我是說大家有脾氣,我不會這麼懵翻,你給我回答這樣,我是跟你說你先輩的那半天我就把他趕走,你知道嗎?你動作我脾氣很好!謝謝你,我剛才已經說明了嘛,因為美國...沒有啦,你只要跟我說沒有就好嘛,你跟我說五分鐘,鬧了五分鐘,現在我給你看,怎麼會這樣?"},{"start":5042.605,"end":5049.088,"text":"啊 他們這樣是不不不你不知你們韓國有這麼50幾%用你這個做秘書就減落30%我跟你說你還可以這樣做 這樣不行 這個秘書長這樣不行喔我雖然不能講說 我是基於說你是前輩喔你怎麼可以這樣給我打的都亂來了 這個實在是我不會認為我對你是上對下啦 我會跟你講理啦但你這個叫不講理啦 這不行啦好不好 這怎麼可以這樣子呢所以啊 本事要講的就是說啊 你像比如說啊"},{"start":5071.874,"end":5072.394,"text":"我相信賴清德準總統也很喜歡到立法院來"},{"start":5096.903,"end":5102.385,"text":"這位國台、這位立法院、這位管理長、這位行政議員備詢經驗他也很豐富啊!他來到這重視不好嘛!他來報告要疑問一答,欸!那這樣好啦!我們就假設你現在是總統啦!做好準總統好不好!你叫做總統!我問你,來到立法院算我的地頭啦!"},{"start":5118.533,"end":5147.382,"text":"我問問你喔 你準備得很衝動 我要你撈開啦 你怎麼這麼撈開的所以你要回答 你也要很謹慎你一個國家元首 我在這裡撈開 人家要就任 也不好所以 各方有所權衡 就是按照憲法的規定就來嘛憲法的條文用於有所不同 那個叫做怨計之間 它故意明顯地做差別待遇嘛"},{"start":5148.817,"end":5153.419,"text":"我不是這樣說,專業的人說的話,背後的人都在那裡嘛,秘書長你也專業的人嘛我們說實在為德,再來我要問你啊就是說,人們整幾天在討論那個末屬委員的諮詢那個啊,你是說到不可以把你們硬拼到貼切一個齁?議事規則從以前到現在都同樣一本啊"},{"start":5172.622,"end":5178.305,"text":"沒有一個院長會出錯,為什麼他會出錯?就很簡單,你也跟他說,你做秘書你私職你跟我說這不妙喔,你不要開玩笑喔如果做到議定的人,還有四疑,條和定賴那一天是四天耶你說這一天的新聞算得好?我今天很清,我今天很清,我今天把全部的禮物都沒收,你很厲害,你不很厲害"},{"start":5197.042,"end":5201.867,"text":"我如果要你做我的亂子你就叫我亂世我告訴你是我個性我不會這樣嘛所以要講道理嘛你們要維護委員之間大家共同的權益不管他叫做哪一黨嘛那不是這樣說你自己給我點頭都不贏啦你為了打我還要給我一毛五百塊那你給我購給人家全部都廢話那才對"},{"start":5218.639,"end":5226.983,"text":"謝謝章偉不是啦 這樣就不好了我不是這樣的人 但是你是從我的脾氣走出來的你的答詢方式 你是從我的脾氣走出來的這樣怎麼可以呢要講道理嘛 到這邊備詢要講道理嘛國會擴建我相信在上一次啊那個 報告章偉 不是我拖時間你很清楚 那耽誤了五分鐘的時間喔你想要怎麼回立法院裡面大家在講說有很多委員故意好像故意要講得很長哪是"},{"start":5247.105,"end":5253.966,"text":"五分鐘後你站在那裡就不是我故意要講的很長我國會擴建年紀也不會說到委員長在的時候我相信他對整個國會都擴建的這個部分不管前陣子還在擴建很關心你注意把它看跳到下一張你看我們現在是這樣我們現在在接受的時候你看國民黨的助力都被塞下去在整個國會分散多處嘛繼續看這是我們國會的地圖你再看看國外"},{"start":5275.418,"end":5276.699,"text":"這個怎麼樣去做一個規劃讓國會更有尊嚴我相信民眾可以慢慢去說服我們立法院自己"},{"start":5296.072,"end":5316.628,"text":"沒有受到民眾的尊重,就是我們表現得不好所以要講這個,不然民意會有反彈但是,國會去做擴建,其實也有它的一個必要性我看是一個新的議長起來,跟你們起來之後,你們這個議題都沒了我不知道你們私底下有沒有在運作,有沒有在努力但秘書長,這個也是你的職責"},{"start":5320.271,"end":5341.81,"text":"我大概簡單一分鐘跟總委員報告因為我在接待公督門的時候他們也有提啦那因為我來以後我也知道有委員有院長在後面也有說明啦所以要繼續這一件要繼續我也跟院長稍微有報告過"},{"start":5344.082,"end":5349.206,"text":"是啦,我是希望你對韓院長盡力的去輔佐他啦畢竟他那個個性小小的,你知道嗎?那個人很醜的啦,要小小啦,你這樣要控制一下人真的啊,人氣那麼高,幹個一個立法院長,他其實可以幹得很出色的啊但問題是像這樣的一個爭議,讓他這樣子延燒"},{"start":5367.452,"end":5389.283,"text":"不要以為真的他有得力傷害到整個立法院也不好啦有細膩啦有細膩啦所以你們要好好去做一個補救總統到國會裡面來我相信任何的總統他都很想踏進立法院過去沒有進來有他的一個歷史的一個嚴格立法院要改不改嘛那憲法裡面的一個規定放在那"},{"start":5391.314,"end":5391.494,"text":"先請黑請回"},{"start":5419.927,"end":5438.82,"text":"兩位秘書長因為剛早上到現在已經有兩位委員認為說秘書長這邊都沒有直接回答他們的問題那接下來我們想麻煩兩位秘書長如果接下來還有進行詢答的時候能夠直接回答好像比較不會浪費大家的時間好謝謝那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":5450.59,"end":5469.224,"text":"主席在那個正式質詢之前我請教昭偉今天的題目是請來報告關於總統到立法院進行國情報告的詢答模式對不對那我很好奇那請立法院的秘書長我可以理解那為什麼要邀請到司法院的秘書長這是有應黨團的"},{"start":5473.167,"end":5482.815,"text":"兩位總召的建議嗎還是有兩位委員建議的因為這個部分跟憲法有關係嘛那當然憲法的話那我們就會請那個司法院的秘書長來說明這是憲法徵求條文第4條的問題嘛所以不是兩位黨衡的總召"},{"start":5488.339,"end":5490.26,"text":"有請立法院的周秘書長跟司法院的吳秘書長請兩位秘書長"},{"start":5514.822,"end":5531.597,"text":"吳秘書長好 周秘書長好那先請教吳秘書長好因為經過跟主席的詢問就知道了大概您對這個議題呢在您的書面報告都講得很清楚就兩點第一個就是根據憲法政策條例第4條總統要到立法院進行國情報告並沒有相關的解釋跟裁判 對不對"},{"start":5532.478,"end":5550.908,"text":"所以司法院就這個說明嘛第二個司法院基於司法的最後性原則所以呢既然如果有這個議題有院跟院最高機關憲政機關的不同見解還是循總統出來調解非不得已才到司法院實現是不是您這個意思是這個意思所以好請回請回"},{"start":5553.809,"end":5565.885,"text":"周秘蔣 聽聞你的大名很久了早在我1996年擔任國民大會第三屆國大代表的時候那時候您就在立法院擔任議事組的好像重要職務嗎"},{"start":5567.132,"end":5586.87,"text":"我那時候是主任是主任 議事組的主任那您知道第三屆的國大代表本席是其中之一你知道賴副總統也是當年第三屆的國大代表我知道總委也是 但是代表因為賴副總統也是嘛 你也知道意思規則本來要請我去做演繹 所以我知道"},{"start":5587.47,"end":5611.544,"text":"謝謝好 那麼既然這樣如此我們有多位過去經歷過第二第三屆國大代表的時候請教為什麼立法院有總統的國情報告但是沒有檢討國事我跟您說明一下在1992年一機關二階段的第二屆的國大代表第二次修憲的時候他就說政略的憲法正條文第一項第一條第七項前段國民大會集會時得聽取總統國情報告並檢討國事提供建言"},{"start":5616.047,"end":5630.766,"text":"但是我們多位委員都只看到在2000年第6次修憲也是我本席有參與的政協條文第4條第3項他說立法院每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告秘書長你有沒有注意到哪裡不一樣什麼地方不見了"},{"start":5633.828,"end":5652.977,"text":"你看一下條文你就直接回答你就直接回答主席才是你了你發現這兩個修憲哪裡不一樣不是我後面的啦條文的後面啦條文的檢討國是提供件有不一樣的那那個時候修憲是單一政黨過十分之三嗎有沒有 有嘛2000年的時候單一政黨過十分之三那國民黨是不是也同意刪除後段"},{"start":5663.638,"end":5689.634,"text":"會經過這樣的調整是國民黨當時也同意的來我告訴你幫你回憶一下第三屆第5次國民大會的議事錄當中原修憲提案第3號修正憲法正確條文第4條條文進行近民表決表決結果出席的投票代表293人當年的國民大會的總員額是331位結果呢贊成286位其實可以說幾乎各黨派一致同意包括國民黨民進黨跟新黨這你瞭解啦齁"},{"start":5692.677,"end":5699.401,"text":"同意嗎?你清楚這段歷史嗎?我告訴你 因為本席在那裡 本席的名字在上面 我有上去發言所以我可以證實這是大家各黨一致協商 同意的經過好 接下來問"},{"start":5712.569,"end":5731.071,"text":"為什麼國民大會可以聽取國情報告?有沒有想過?憲法175條總共175條有哪個條文說國民大會可以聽取總統的國情報告?你知不知道?憲法?有沒有?完全沒有,憲法本文沒有那為什麼徵求條文國民大會修憲的時候要拿這個國情報告呢?"},{"start":5732.478,"end":5742.583,"text":"因為當時我73年曾經到國民大會又要開始話說從頭了我直接告訴你答案好了聽你講話會浪費我時間憲法本文第27條國民大會直選在哪裡選總統副總統到了192年第二次修憲的時候憲法正條文第12條第一項總統副總統由中華民國自由地區全體人民職業選舉產生是不是這樣因為總統直選了"},{"start":5757.83,"end":5771.675,"text":"那在直選之後國民大會要幹嘛以前國民大會直選之前6年集會一次集會幹嘛選總統現在總統交給人民選了國民大會幹嘛所以呢國民大會就講了沒有事情就怎樣"},{"start":5773.215,"end":5780.363,"text":"國民大會集會時每年集會一次聽取總統國情報告並檢討國事提供建言因為修憲之後國民大會沒事幹啦6年改成4年總統也人民選他集會幹嘛只好請總統來報告得聽取總統國情報告聽取喔他檢討國事提供建言你認為是不是這樣"},{"start":5797.177,"end":5822.528,"text":"中委的分析非常明確謝謝你的肯定來我再告訴你下一張1991年第一次修憲的時候一機關二階段來我們看看這裡剛剛寫的憲法政調法文第7項前段還有呢第三項你看差別在1992年到2000年最後很奇怪了到2008年距離國民大會被廢掉2005年廢掉之後呢立法院職員刑事法第15條"},{"start":5824.009,"end":5838.427,"text":"這次他說今總統同意時得綜合在座補充報告請問一下秘書長你認為立法委員在自己的行使法當中去超越了憲法正條文的內容你覺得有沒有擴權之嫌擴權之嫌"},{"start":5840.929,"end":5855.965,"text":"因為憲憲法通過這麼久了憲憲法是憲法嘛不是 憲刑 立法院執行司法那也沒有人去申請司法院的提示你所要暗示我們要提出請司法院做事先喔我倒不是 我倒不是這樣我倒不是這個意思"},{"start":5858.859,"end":5883.492,"text":"我們看這一張 這2018年立法理由說為堅固憲政精神引入總統自行同意之設計 原為第二項規定有沒有看到 非憲法義務啊當年立法院訂立新執法的時候 也說得很清楚啊這不是總統的憲法義務 是自己加上去的看總統高興不高興 他自己決定很清楚嗎 連立法委員在通過的時候都很清楚好 往下一條"},{"start":5884.472,"end":5902.704,"text":"所以在1991年一級官二階段的時候就是這個過程第一屆的老國代通過可以國會前面官選交給第二屆來執行相關的修憲所以我告訴你關鍵在哪裡來看下一頁甚至國民大會修憲的時候還可以預告修憲在第二屆的時候第二屆修憲的時候他還說中華民國的總統"},{"start":5906.724,"end":5927.481,"text":"直接選舉前向的選舉方式預告在1992年預告到1985年之前那時候任期就屆滿了由國民大會集會以憲法徵修條文定制請問你所了解的各國的憲法可以在修法的時候還預告未來要修憲你有沒有看過這樣的方式"},{"start":5928.496,"end":5950.848,"text":"有沒有看過預告未來要修憲為什麼要預告修憲就訂出了總統副總統的選舉是相對多數也是委員在關心的二輪投票是在那個時候國民黨主導的國民大會預告1992年預告1995年要修憲把它定為現在的選舉方式好下一條"},{"start":5951.98,"end":5978.8,"text":"所以我們來看一下總統選舉權換國情報告還有司法跟考試同意權當國民大會把總統選舉權讓渡出來給人民質詢的時候他要了兩個東西一個呢 把監察院的同意權從司法院的同意權是由監察院行使拿到國民大會來他把考試院的人事同意權從監察院拿到國民大會來所以一次總統質詢國民大會得到三樣東西"},{"start":5980.421,"end":6003.8,"text":"考試院的人事同意權司法院的人事同意權還有請總統可以來報告國情這樣了解了齁這我不再給你上課我再附習歷史下一頁所以即便國情報告國事建言也是輪流發言我在1997年的時候那時候呢為了18歲公民權問了一下李總統在旁邊有沒有上來回答您看過"},{"start":6005.017,"end":6025.845,"text":"李前總統到國民大會去報告國事聽取建言的時候有沒有現場回答 有沒有我是問你嘛 我說你歷史很久嘛你也知道本席在國民大會嘛 你在立法院嘛那時候李登輝前總統到國民大會去聽取建言 有回答嗎沒有啦"},{"start":6031.195,"end":6045.465,"text":"本席擔任的四年當中每次總統來國情報告聽取建言的時候啊他都是聽而已啦他沒有回答啦這樣了解了齁往下一頁所以呢你的意見我覺得蠻道地的啦"},{"start":6046.789,"end":6061.631,"text":"委員提案跟現行的總統國情報不同憲法正條第4條第3項用語不同很明顯的而且你還說其他國家的總統詢答方式尚未見及時詢答這是你經過比較研究的結果吧"},{"start":6063.792,"end":6087.679,"text":"所以我們法治局有給委員有19種所以你從法治局演繹到得到的結論其實我書裡面都有寫你的書也有寫很好我們看一下往下看所以呢從修憲的歷程現行的憲法來看要強制總統報告本來的憲法這條本文是德總統他可以來他也可以不來我們改成什麼我們改成什麼"},{"start":6091.377,"end":6093.418,"text":"立法院的邀請是不是 有沒有"},{"start":6097.362,"end":6121.774,"text":"那是執行新司法不是憲法所以如果說今天在野黨包括國民黨他希望要總統要來立法院提出國情報告聽取建言那他就要修憲你認為呢除了修憲有沒有第二條路走我想因為現行條文有明定所以也沒有到修憲的問題存在明定就不要修憲那不修憲可以來嗎"},{"start":6122.774,"end":6140.156,"text":"以現行的我們立法院的規定只要有那個第15條之後的那些要件當然他會來嘛他可以來但是沒有提到要詢答嘛詢答是因為以現行條文15條之事是沒有但是"},{"start":6141.55,"end":6153.425,"text":"委員之間如果在提討論 如果大家有違憲：好了 不勉強你啦這個你的意思是說 可是權刑司法有沒有超越憲法的規定擴權因為還沒有人去請求釋憲 所以你也不好專善來 請秘書長來 請"},{"start":6158.149,"end":6159.73,"text":"規劃現在本來就有在規劃吧,因為原來的我所了解有規劃設計會的"},{"start":6181.423,"end":6190.428,"text":"主席主席我只問他三個月提出書面報告秘書長講了很久沒有講到重點可不可以直接回答我們剛剛已經講說一定直接回答"},{"start":6205.796,"end":6224.939,"text":"因為這不是我不直接回答 因為有6個地方那我不用我 你說3個月不夠要6個月是不是 不是不是 周委員你聽我報告不能提書面報告 因為你上一屆這10屆裡面是有6個地方那這個我只是要你提出書面報告而已欸"},{"start":6225.82,"end":6232.505,"text":"立法院執行刑事法有沒有涉及到違反憲法增強條文擴權之前要有人提出 有機關提出釋憲 司法院這邊才會受理 是不是這樣意思 你聽他的意思是不是這樣子"},{"start":6249.597,"end":6271.413,"text":"因為就我們在這個說明有說到有這個結論就是說就這個相關議題我們本院不便也不宜表示意見不便也不宜啦那了解了那本席要告訴你因為今天來是就國情報告來回應的本席不會也不能對個案來進行關說謝謝"},{"start":6275.811,"end":6276.131,"text":"主席有請周秘書長"},{"start":6302.335,"end":6327.231,"text":"秘書長在我來問國情報告相關問題之前我想要接續莊瑞雄委員的問題他剛剛在質詢的時候說您身為秘書長當韓國瑜院長宣讀唱名三次然後宣布未到的委員總質詢跳過他出錯了你身為秘書長為什麼沒有糾正韓國瑜的錯誤他這樣問"},{"start":6330.474,"end":6330.695,"text":"韓國瑜院長出錯?"},{"start":6341.328,"end":6364.199,"text":"你當時就該回答我們莊委員韓國瑜院長按照立法院議事規則沒有錯啊所以基本上這是捍衛我們立法院的議事規則的尊嚴這個我覺得秘書長你可以直接回答莊委員韓院長沒有錯我們議事人員也沒有錯啊你被唱名三次在我們的議事規則請問的效果是什麼 未到"},{"start":6365.916,"end":6370.098,"text":"接下來我想請教您關於國情報告的問題我想要引幾句話幾段話想請教我們的秘書長猜猜看是誰說的"},{"start":6390.323,"end":6415.121,"text":"總統到國會報告必須要與立委雙向溝通互動能夠詢答才有意義你知道這句話誰說的嗎我是我們的民進黨總召柯建民那我再問第二段話如果總統只是來報告自言自語那麼在臉書上寫一寫找電視台做獨白就夠了不要來踐踏立法院這句話誰說的"},{"start":6418.137,"end":6433.861,"text":"我告訴你也是我們的民進黨的總召柯建民有鑒於國會監督的重要總統到立法院進行國情報告必須採取及問及答的方式否則根本沒有意義這句話誰說的我告訴你還是柯建民總召說的好了然後國情報告及問及答違憲啊違憲啊你知道這句話誰說的嗎"},{"start":6448.018,"end":6448.898,"text":"對 我要講的是兩件事嘛"},{"start":6478.618,"end":6479.242,"text":"第一個就是說"},{"start":6480.885,"end":6510.118,"text":"我們的國情報告及問及答有沒有違憲不是民進黨說了算吧不是2012年的柯建民說了算也不是今天2024年的柯建民說了算嘛有沒有違憲是大法官會議解釋嘛現在就講違憲那我現在想請教您下一個問題我當過馬英九總統的發言人總統府的副秘書長我主持陪同馬總統召開記者會這是無數次啊"},{"start":6511.104,"end":6515.226,"text":"你有沒有聽過馬英九的吃到飽記者會問到飽記者會有沒有聽過我告訴你馬總統經常舉辦問到飽記者會就是記者你隨便你問你問到滿意沒有人問題沒有人有問題以後馬總統才離開那我想請教你記者在記者會上對總統採取及時答詢對不對記者會都及時答詢對不對詢答算是對總統的不尊重嗎"},{"start":6541.227,"end":6545.911,"text":"記者在跟總統及時詢答算不算不尊重不尊重總統答對了嘛有什麼不尊重呢那麼記者在記者會上對總統及時詢答是毀憲亂政嗎"},{"start":6558.871,"end":6571.283,"text":"不是吧?因為很明顯答這個ABC的常識嘛那我想請問你那為什麼國會總統在國會接受立法委員的即時詢答就是對總統的不尊重那為什麼立委在國情報告後對總統即時詢答就是毀憲亂政呢?"},{"start":6580.014,"end":6584.66,"text":"我不懂這邏輯嘛這我想請教你有看過賴清德總統當選人齁參選總統時候到大學演講來接受年輕人的詢問嗎"},{"start":6591.445,"end":6614.204,"text":"有看過吧 也是及時詢答嘛 對不對 賴總統很棒啊對 我們總統大學很棒啊 及時詢答有位女大學生當場問了賴清德一個問題如何解決民進黨層出不窮的貪污案件 引起了滿堂彩啊那我想請問您 這位女大學生是對賴清德不尊重嗎"},{"start":6626.338,"end":6640.802,"text":"女大生跟賴清德的互動沒有不尊重當然賴清德那時候不是總統可是現在總統就算他是總統今天如果說一個女大學生在這個演講活動當中他是總統我跟你及時詢答就要毀憲亂政嗎"},{"start":6644.707,"end":6670.578,"text":"也不會是毀憲亂政嘛所以回頭我就要講民進黨現在一直在喊啊叫啊說啊這個及時詢答對總統不尊重及時詢答是毀憲亂政我不知道民進黨在叫什麼他是在罵柯建民嗎柯建民那時候一直喊你不要你沒有急問急答沒有及時詢答你總統回家去寫點書啦不要來了啦踐踏立法院啦羞辱立法院啦"},{"start":6671.789,"end":6681.954,"text":"你去開記者會講話啦你到那個電視台讀白啦這是2012年版本的柯建民所以我就要問齁再問你第三個問題喔你有沒有聽過這個蔡英文的745事件氣死我事件啦什麼叫745氣死我事件一個總統有745天不接受記者提問欸也是破了我們憲政紀錄了吧"},{"start":6702.13,"end":6714.835,"text":"你覺得我們身為總統、國家元首公開、透明然後對民眾來傳達施政理念應該是一個很正常的事情吧秘書長是不是那我就要請教秘書長請問我剛剛前面講那個問道寶記者會的馬總統啦然後這個氣死我的蔡英文啦你覺得誰比較尊重民眾知的權益啊"},{"start":6730.93,"end":6737.753,"text":"那我要跟各位講為什麼今天我們國民黨團這麼堅持今天國情報告必須採取這個即時詢答我先講即時詢答有不同的方式喔"},{"start":6761.175,"end":6782.16,"text":"即問即答是即時詢答一問一答是即時詢答統問統答也可能算是稍延遲的即時詢答當場要回答所以即時詢答是有很多種形式的這個什麼形式透過黨團協商討論我覺得是有空間的也可以給總統一點所謂的尊重一個空間黨團協商來討論"},{"start":6784.58,"end":6802.245,"text":"但是今天國情報告讓總統來國會及時詢答其實最重要一個憲政的意義就是要讓總統不要再發生氣死我事件啦那如果這個賴清德總統上去又再氣死我745天875天不來面對記者不提問的話起碼每年對不對他最多365記者會啦365氣死你啦"},{"start":6812.572,"end":6830.83,"text":"365天過了以後他要到國會來來接受國會的詢答這是給我們的人民 捍衛我們人民知悉總統意志施政方向的一個很重要的一個機制所以為什麼我們今天我們在捍衛民主憲政的基本原理"},{"start":6832.452,"end":6850.109,"text":"所以這是我想說今天跟國情報告的部分我要跟這個秘書長討論那當然剛剛前面我也看到我們的那個民進黨的立委提了很多很棒的論點那我就一一的來就教我想請問你我們憲法徵修條文第4條第3項的規定是什麼"},{"start":6859.645,"end":6869.295,"text":"對 得聽取總統國情報告嘛 對不對立法院得聽取總統國情報告立法院有選擇要聽總統國情報告有這個主動權嘛 對不對那我想請問這個憲法有規定總統可以拒絕嗎"},{"start":6878.045,"end":6881.128,"text":"我講的是憲法我還沒有講立法院職權行使法"},{"start":6891.311,"end":6919.736,"text":"因為憲法是在法律在憲法之下我了解因為我自己書上也有這樣寫就是每次的一個情形是美國總統跟國會是有共同的立法的權利那我們這邊的情形變成立法院變成有決定權在身上對嘛因為是源於憲法嘛但是換言之第一個憲法上沒有總統得拒絕的憲法規定喔沒錯吧"},{"start":6920.728,"end":6946.984,"text":"那第二個 那我就問 那總統可以拒絕嗎?按憲法不是按照法律啦 我講的是憲法啦因為這一個 我剛才也跟羅委員報告吧就是說這一個 我們目前的憲法的條文的規定是總統的國情報告決定權是在立法院對所以立法院就必然依照那個要件目前15條之後跟總規的兩個要件那當然他就會 那我只問他可以拒絕嗎?"},{"start":6949.799,"end":6974.997,"text":"立法院递了國情報告給總統邀請他來他可以拒絕嗎?他可以拒絕嗎?答對了按憲法來講他不能拒絕嘛當然剛剛你講文字上有沒有重複那是法律文字上我們可以大家討論啦但是邱秘書長剛才確定一件事憲法上總統是不能拒絕的啊所以因此我也不知道民進黨到底在吵什麼那第二個民進黨一直在講修憲考古"},{"start":6977.625,"end":6998.237,"text":"我們現在的憲法徵修條文確實拿掉了之前的徵修條文提供建言的這個文字現在憲法的徵修條文沒有提供建言的這個文字等於今天我們立法院不可以請總統提供建言嗎這是相等的問題嗎"},{"start":6999.838,"end":7007.343,"text":"其實我直接跟秘書長講他在做憲法考古我尊重他的考古精神可是回頭就是剛剛最前面其實秘書長斬釘截鐵的告訴大家的"},{"start":7026.055,"end":7053.232,"text":"就是國情報告採取及問及答或是其他詢答的形式在立法院我們立法委員要修法之後是沒有違憲問題的啊就這麼簡單要不要違憲問題你今天是大法官去解釋嘛不是嗎那你各位考古那麼多憲法條文但憲法條文就沒有寫今天不能接受建言啊不是嗎所以最後我還是要講一件事情就是說我的結論很簡單我非常認同柯建民講的啊"},{"start":7055.416,"end":7076.803,"text":"如果不能及時詢答你總統去寫臉書啦我們都不用審了啦 這個案子不用通過了啦你來幹什麼啊 踐踏立法院不是我講的 柯建民講的你踐踏立法院啦 不接受及時詢答來立法院做國情報告報告完就走 叫做踐踏立法院欸抱歉喔 媒體朋友 不是羅志強講的 是柯建民講的"},{"start":7077.683,"end":7077.903,"text":"這是本席的建議啦,謝謝您"},{"start":7108.244,"end":7111.206,"text":"主席好 各位委員好辛苦秘書長今天一早大家都針對我們這次幾個委員還有黨團這裡所提出來的"},{"start":7130.424,"end":7156.1,"text":"有關於總統到立法院進行國情報告的事情向您請教那我也拜讀了秘書長這裡所提出來的針對總統急問急答還有國情報告的相關的內容那在這邊我想首先先請教秘書長幾個比較尚未概念的問題首先您是否認同民主政治是責任政治"},{"start":7157.982,"end":7172.202,"text":"這是一點 是的那所以責任政治的意思就是執政者必須要對他的政策的成敗要負起責任那這邊我們談的應該就是所謂權責相符的概念您認同吧"},{"start":7173.963,"end":7195.253,"text":"我稍微要稍微補充一句因為這可能會讓外界對我後面的說法可能會有點誤解因為這一個機制的設計是因為行政院憲法徵求條件第三條第二項第一款裡面所受的這一個是民意政治跟責任政治可能行政院立法院有一層關係"},{"start":7197.034,"end":7198.496,"text":"我這邊只是談一個非常簡單的概念就是執政者要不要為他的執政的政策的成敗負政治責任"},{"start":7213.61,"end":7232.297,"text":"當然執政者這裡的概念可以像秘書長說的我們可以分很多不同的層次但是就國家最高最重要的執政者我相信全民的理解都應該就是我們只選出來的總統那麼如果說我們認同的是權責相符的概念那麼"},{"start":7234.058,"end":7251.937,"text":"總統作為國家元首三軍統帥他現在依照憲法規定他也主導國防外交的相關事務並且實質上他因為他任命了行政院院長他也實質的控制了所有國家最重要的這個大政方針"},{"start":7252.918,"end":7277.733,"text":"同時他也直接提名任命行政司法考試監察等等的這些擁有這些人事任命權所以在擁有如此龐大權力的這個總統您認為他需不需要就他的決策就他的人事任命等等這些權力的這些狀的決定必須要向全民說清楚必須向全民負責"},{"start":7280.474,"end":7297.452,"text":"所以他這個狀況我要這樣說明就是說總統跟立法院之間因為總統本身的這些職權上因為修憲因為我自己教憲我還了解到他是已經目前的"},{"start":7298.513,"end":7308.276,"text":"以中華民國憲法的總統權力比美國總統還大所以我們在交憲法都會這樣說是 所以剛剛秘書長有說您現在發現就是說我們其實中華民國憲法總統權力是比美國的總統都還要大對 那我剛剛想很強調的就是說總統的做的這些總統的政策決定包含人事的人民提名權是不是必須要向全民負責我所謂的全民是因為這個總統是由我們民眾一票一票所投出來的我現在還沒有談到跟立法院立法權有關係"},{"start":7328.442,"end":7333.604,"text":"那麼大家知道剛剛羅志強委員有說了這個蔡總統她在這個她有700多天可能現在累積到現在可能有800多天也都沒有開過記者會那這也是全民其實非常期待而且認為說總統怎麼可以在任這麼長的一段時間都不出來為任何的政策"},{"start":7351.61,"end":7367.862,"text":"談清楚說明白這個是全民所期待我們的總統應該要公開的清楚的把他的施政方針這個國家重要政策必須要向全民報告全民說清楚可是"},{"start":7369.144,"end":7392.578,"text":"大家知道,其實從民國89年修憲之後到目前為止沒有任何一位總統有機會到立法院進行國情報告是,不曉得秘書長您有沒有發現這是一個什麼原因為什麼總統都沒有機會來到立法院進行國情報告呢?"},{"start":7395.239,"end":7422.862,"text":"曾經兩度啦在陳總統的時候陳總統自己本身一次另外就是透過秘書長陳灘山也來的一函兩次但是立法院沒有接受那如果說以剛才翁委員所提的一個情形有些的情況因為我們自己本身已經訂了第二章之一的這個聽取國情報告如果我剛才一開始有說立法院有決定權"},{"start":7423.783,"end":7440.21,"text":"所以立法院有決定成立第15條之後他的要件成立立法院當然可以啟動他如果要來也要經過立法院同意他才能來因為大家有條文的規定對我想其實剛剛秘書長只提到陳總統的部分他其實陳總統在2004年陳水扁2004年2007年馬總統在2012年還有2015年的時候以及這個蔡總統2017年等等其實當時都有"},{"start":7453.596,"end":7457.02,"text":"希望說能夠到立法院來進行國情報告但是很可惜他們都沒有來程沒有來程的原因當然是不同的政黨那對他們總統來進行國情報告有意見可是我必須說時代在改變我們人民的希望期盼其實也在改變"},{"start":7474.4,"end":7476.241,"text":"所以新國會必須要有新氣象那麼我們現在承載的全民的復託我們希望我們的總統能夠可以清楚的把它未來怎麼樣帶領國家如何的施政方針必須要跟全民說清楚"},{"start":7491.347,"end":7510.701,"text":"這也是我們這一次之所以要提出這個修改立法院職權行使法的原因剛剛大家其實討論了很多有關於在憲法追究條文裡面所談的立法院得聽取總統進行國情報告但是"},{"start":7511.782,"end":7537.97,"text":"的意思代表說立法院可以不聽取可以邀請也可以不邀請那以我們過去這麼多年來的這個實務的情況來看其實就算是總統他很希望能夠來這個立法院把事情講清楚可是立法委員卻不接受那麼這個部分我覺得其實是立法院自己本身的怠惰那麼我們承接著全民的這個托付那麼希望"},{"start":7538.69,"end":7562.422,"text":"未來能夠邀請總統就是例行性的必須要來進行國情報告這也是一個開大門走大路而且呢同時這也是一個向全民負責的一個最好的一個施政的展現那麼在這次的這個立法院的職權行使法我們其實是立法院本身採取最嚴格的自我要求我們必須要將未來邀請總統來進行國情報告的事情讓他常態化"},{"start":7567.945,"end":7595.086,"text":"所以我認為說就這個部分來講的話應該是全民是會支持的那麼接下來我想請教就是說您在報告裡面其實有提到就是現在像是美國還有法國其實他們都有不同的這個制度特別是針對疾問疾答的部分那看起來基本上現在還是採取所謂的綜合性的這個回覆可是呢我也必須說美國的總統制跟法國的"},{"start":7595.506,"end":7595.746,"text":"中華民國總統至立法院"},{"start":7611.181,"end":7627.986,"text":"那法國的半總統制有他們的採取是二輪選舉制所以也就是說我們其實要回到我們自己的憲政的國情我們要去看什麼樣的情況才是最符合我們直接民主的這個要求全民的意志"},{"start":7629.006,"end":7629.126,"text":"請教秘書長"},{"start":7649.025,"end":7650.986,"text":"質詢權是一個憲法上面很重要的一個"},{"start":7675.538,"end":7675.878,"text":"立法委員．"},{"start":7702.183,"end":7702.644,"text":"民意代表．"},{"start":7723.226,"end":7737.26,"text":"可以聽取總統的國情報告所以早在民國82年的時候那時候就已經制定了國民大會聽取總統國情報告並檢討國事提供建議實施辦法但是很遺憾我們說89年"},{"start":7738.681,"end":7759.8,"text":"把這個執行的這個權利改成為由立法把這個聽取報告的權利由立法院行使之後我們始終沒有訂定相關的辦法那我也認為這個是一個立法的一個疏失那未來的話應該要再積極的把它這個訂定上去那最後就是剛剛"},{"start":7761.943,"end":7788.015,"text":"秘書長一直有提到所謂的15條之二就現行的法律的15條之二其實現行的立法院徵修職權行使法的第15條之二其實還是總統他還是仍然是可以拒絕的就算是立法院這個經過院會決議可以說是聽取總統國情報告但是在我們現在法律設計上面如果我們遇到一個賴皮的總統他仍然是可以不來"},{"start":7789.909,"end":7800.943,"text":"不知道您是否同意因為這個是義務性的設計啦我在報告也特別講如果加了這句話如果照剛剛翁委員說他也不來怎麼辦"},{"start":7803.695,"end":7818.9,"text":"但是如果說我們現在依照我們現在的修法版本裡面總統不得拒絕或者是總統就應該要來的話他就必須來可是在我們原來現在的現行條文裡面的第15條之二其實如果真的遇到一個會耍賴的總統"},{"start":7819.96,"end":7823.162,"text":"他還是可以拒絕不來所以也就是說我們現在法律基本上他是個道德的最低標準我們是在防弊"},{"start":7837.33,"end":7856.383,"text":"我們當然不希望把總統都把他想像成他是個小人他是個會耍賴是個無賴我們立法委員我們行使了我們職權可是他還是會不來但是把法制這個設計完整把這個防備機制全部都做好我認為其實是有必要的"},{"start":7856.903,"end":7862.425,"text":"還有最後一個部分就是針對有關於總統國情報告萬一遇到緊急狀態的時候要怎麼處理還有就是說跟這個集會的時間會不會有一些問題我想坦白說這應該是屬於立法"},{"start":7874.75,"end":7877.612,"text":"院秘書處的議事規則要去處理的再跟實際上我們如果大政方針確定了就是要這麼做再怎麼樣的困難去邀請總統來進行國情報告的時間我認為其實都可以安排的出來"},{"start":7891.801,"end":7906.187,"text":"更何況說就現在行政院院長來我們立法院接受這個質詢他們進行報告施政報告同樣也會遇到有緊急狀態可是好像現在立法院也沒有處理所以本席認為啦這應該不構成什麼太這個太多的困難是很難克服的這個問題好那以上那我想今天就叫這個秘書長也謝謝您的辛苦了"},{"start":7919.121,"end":7919.401,"text":"主席"},{"start":7936.081,"end":7938.064,"text":"立法院每年集會時得聽取總統的國情報告"},{"start":7954.364,"end":7955.265,"text":"各自解讀,總統確實不得拒絕"},{"start":7969.971,"end":7998.509,"text":"你可以把法源依據講出來嗎為什麼你認為這個總統不得拒絕這個到立法院如果立法院我們邀請他來也經過我們提議也經過我們院會決議他就必須要來嗎你認為他不得拒絕但是你剛才回答翁小林委員好像講的又說態度很曖昧那你回答羅志強委員的才對還是說你的態度像目前還沒有有一個定論"},{"start":8002.015,"end":8017.229,"text":"因為從第15條之二的設計就是領域性的設計了所以他當然一定要來因為我們在演習的時候加上總統不得拒絕一樣的結果"},{"start":8018.269,"end":8037.518,"text":"所以他不能拒絕嗎?我們本身這樣的規範他就一定要來就是義務性的設計因為林委員學法知道所以他可以耍賴嗎?他不能啊所以加上總統不能拒絕也是一樣的結果啦所以你的法源依據就是"},{"start":8040.739,"end":8065.698,"text":"剛才因為幾位委員他這個講說這個好像有違憲說我們的立法院職權刑事法邀請他來他可以不來的意思就是說他來這個職權刑事法的規定好像有違憲所以我想問你就是說您可以很明確的說出他這個不得拒絕的法源依據是憲法還是我們立法院的職權刑事法"},{"start":8066.127,"end":8093.602,"text":"因為之前都沒有這麼規範所以我才剛才跟林委員報告這是義務性的設計吧你在我們第15條之後這樣的規定當然一定要來嘛所以他如果不來當然我剛才也跟林委員報告歐委員16人所提的這個提案加上總統不得拒絕我也沒有反對都尊重你們的意見我只是說"},{"start":8094.002,"end":8094.962,"text":"請問他不一樣的地方在哪裡?"},{"start":8123.632,"end":8141.058,"text":"因為每一個國家的憲政文化不會一樣這一個只是我們法治局做一個研析 把各個國家拿來對比時間有限 您告訴我不同之處在哪裡"},{"start":8141.578,"end":8141.898,"text":"國情報告的發動權"},{"start":8158.783,"end":8171.889,"text":"那在美國跟法國他都是由總統主動發動的那我們的立法院職權行使法是由立法院可以主動來提議嗎可以邀請他來嗎所以這是兩個不同之處嘛對不對我也特別這樣寫"},{"start":8179.452,"end":8202.284,"text":"所以我個人就會贊同說您剛才提的啦其實不管依照我們憲法的規定或者立法院執行司法的規定總統他完全沒有拒絕的權利因為我們跟法國不一樣法國跟美國他是可以由總統主動來這個講說他要來做國情報告阿爛的是我們可以主動邀請他來嘛我們多了一項這種權利嘛"},{"start":8204.105,"end":8227.803,"text":"所以總統到立法院來報告是等於說是他的一個義務嗎如果依照我們立法院的職權形式第15條之後的規定就是他就義務性的設計他就要來他一定要來對不對他的義務嘛第二項是他主動嘛他自己主動還要立法院同意他才能來是啊才能來嘛對不對所以我們的設計跟美國法國完全是不一樣嘛"},{"start":8228.383,"end":8239.123,"text":"我們國會有主動發動權邀請他來他就不能抗拒他必須到人民的國會來向立法院做這個國情的報告也接受質詢"},{"start":8241.226,"end":8269.134,"text":"那我想這個其實大家一直對於說到底說可不可以質詢這個總統或者是說要採什麼方式那大家一直有意見民進黨剛剛也講違憲這個也提出很多他的一個看法這我們表示尊重其實我看了一篇這個報告這個這位學者他其實也是偏民進黨的他提出他說我國不是採這個內閣制的國家"},{"start":8271.976,"end":8289.07,"text":"非內閣制的國家有質詢制度是不正常的若是取消質詢制度台灣就變成行政與立法分立的國家但是在還沒有修改制度以前行政單位還是不能抗拒質詢而該率領各部會的首長備詢的是總統"},{"start":8293.462,"end":8319.019,"text":"因為總統才是國家的最高行政首長為什麼他這樣講因為我們採雙首長制剛才吳小林委員也提出了很精闢的見解也提出說我們的總統有非常多的職權其實現在的行政院長修憲之後行政院長只是我們總統的幕僚長有關國家安全的重大方針"},{"start":8320.5,"end":8326.026,"text":"大政方針都是由總統來負責所以說其實應該率相關的部會首長來受質詢的應該是總統總統不應該躲在背後才是對我們人民的國會負責"},{"start":8342.623,"end":8347.926,"text":"如果以現在的徵求條文當然因為我們徵求條文第3條是規定行政院向立法院務責行政院是最高行政所長但如果在實務上的一個解釋的運作"},{"start":8369.375,"end":8383.54,"text":"變成是現在因為同意權的情形立法院就不能對行政院有行使同意權吧所以實際上就變成行政院長已經漸漸的變成總統的幕僚長了這實際上就變成這種狀況"},{"start":8386.279,"end":8390.32,"text":"總統到立法院來做國情報告並接受立法院的質詢其實正是符合我們現階段我們憲政的設計因為總統才是真正的"},{"start":8406.41,"end":8419.81,"text":"就相關的國家大政的方針決定權在他行政院長只是他的幕僚長因為行政院現在根本他的這個任命不用經過我們立法院的同意也不用經過這個附屬"},{"start":8422.393,"end":8443.428,"text":"所以總統才是真正應該要對受監督的對象所以我們這樣的一個制度的設計我覺得依照憲政的精神總統絕對是要到我們立法院來做國情報告並且接受我們立法院的一個質詢接下來我再請教你"},{"start":8444.309,"end":8463.648,"text":"我們憲法徵修條文第二條第四項規定的總統必須就國家安全大政方針到立法院來做國情報告那總統的國情報告跟行政院長的施政報告他主要的不同在哪裡"},{"start":8465.575,"end":8479.327,"text":"他兩種的方針裡面他大致的方針是各案跟通案是不太一樣那因為我們常期的是說國防外交兩案是由總統的職權那其他的大概由行政院來"},{"start":8480.348,"end":8503.349,"text":"所以你是認為他只請就憲法上所規定的國防外交的職權來做實證報告所以我們才第15條之後才會寫立法院對於行政院的事務第15條之後才會寫國防安全是大政方針所以這次我知道你認為國家安全的大政方針你可以列舉幾項"},{"start":8505.014,"end":8505.615,"text":"國防外交及國家安全大政方針"},{"start":8512.962,"end":8538.412,"text":"這裡我要先補充一下我們一個大華官他的陳其敏教授所說的通案跟個案的差異性個案的話大概就變成行政院他所謂的大政環境是通案個案我了解但是我現在問你說國家大政除了現在總統我們講說在憲法上他是主責這個國防外交是他的職權"},{"start":8539.852,"end":8557.304,"text":"除了國防外交以外 如果他來立法院做國情報告 他的國家安全的大政方針是不是不限於只有國防跟外交 還有其他的議題吧比如說少子化的議題 他要不要來做報告 是不是國家安全的大政方針"},{"start":8559.064,"end":8563.726,"text":"人口政策難道不是國安的問題嗎?食安政策、國人健康的問題難道不涉及國安嗎?"},{"start":8575.874,"end":8597.812,"text":"所以這一個裡面就是說委員的提案我們都通過了尊重委員所寫的這一個提案的內容所以我也未必表示什麼所以我在問您的意見看您的意見怎樣好了我最後結論我想我們總統他是國家元首那行政院長他必須對總統負責"},{"start":8599.833,"end":8623.822,"text":"所以我建議因為我們這次修法也講說總統的國情報告到底要是什麼時候來做那我是建議他一定要優先於行政院長畢竟總統才是真正的這個我們的一國的元首那如果他的國情報告比行政院長還後面的話你認為這樣子的順序安排對嗎"},{"start":8626.274,"end":8654.033,"text":"如果以我個人意見我個人意見的情況這一個有沒有加了一個第三項有一個叫新任的總統要到立法院來規定的我個人是比較個人意見我現在是講個人意見我是非常贊同的我非常贊同的所以國情報告優先於立法院執政報告這個裡面的一個情形是從未來如果"},{"start":8654.773,"end":8665.029,"text":"我們立法院真的邀請總統來做國情報告你應該比就在2月1號我們這個集會的時候馬上就安排吧"},{"start":8668.279,"end":8685.409,"text":"這一個我都尊重我尊重我沒有你個人意見是怎樣你還是沒有你個人意見尊重是尊重我的講法我有一首題的提案應該優先於行政院長因為我未被人表示這一個情況這我的建議啦以上謝謝"},{"start":8688.862,"end":8700.402,"text":"好 謝謝那我們稍後在吳委員是要詢答完畢之後我們又依照先前的宣告處理臨時提案那接下來我們請吳委員是要進行詢答"},{"start":8724.433,"end":8724.674,"text":"主席"},{"start":8737.816,"end":8754.12,"text":"好 謝謝主席秘書長您主動站上來本來想說讓你歇息一下喝口水謝謝主席謝謝與會所有的同仁那我在發言前也跟主席這個請求今天您非常的體恤大家因為這個議題非常重要你給委員充分發言的時間剛剛黃國昌總召用了17分鐘羅志強委員用了13分鐘我會努力的你給我15分鐘就好謝謝"},{"start":8765.882,"end":8786.397,"text":"尊重憲法依法行政是不論誰執政都應當共同捍衛的我今天就教於周秘書長其實我習慣叫您周老師我從年輕的時候就拜讀您很多的專書專文所以同一套憲法不論誰執政都要共同捍衛對我拿錯了哈這裡"},{"start":8788.018,"end":8804.274,"text":"就是這套憲法我要先講前提不論誰執政我們要共同捍衛同樣一套憲法那就今天的兩個主題總統國情報告的安排也好或者是上週發生在立法院立委質詢權"},{"start":8806.055,"end":8813.457,"text":"首先我也要回應一下我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他會被民進黨氣死其實他不知道他執行完網路上刷一片"},{"start":8836.915,"end":8838.834,"text":"社會會被羅志強笑死"},{"start":8840.203,"end":8866.63,"text":"羅志強委員舉賴清德副總統可以參加大學生的論壇那現場接受女大學生的提問那為什麼來立法院不行羅志強委員指說蔡英文總統每天有必要公開行程的話有媒體現場採訪她她也樂意來回應所以女記者都可以提問為什麼立法委員不行"},{"start":8868.479,"end":8886.366,"text":"我們是立法委員在這個憲法之下我們今天立法院在會期期間每一天依序來安排會議開燈開冷氣開電腦開設備花了民脂民膏這麼多的人民公帑我們就應當依據憲法"},{"start":8888.487,"end":8898.68,"text":"跟議事規則來行使我們的職權這是立法委員的職權拿女記者的提問拿學生對於"},{"start":8900.509,"end":8928.465,"text":"報告主席請維護一下秩序謝謝不要干擾本席的發言拿這樣的比喻我覺得非常的適當非常的適當我也要回應剛剛翁小林委員說時代在變我們要思考制度要不要改變我同意確實如此但是時代在變修法有法律修法的程序修憲有依規修憲的程序"},{"start":8929.506,"end":8950.43,"text":"所以時代在變台灣的制度是不是要改變可以來討論如果對於現行憲法的規定有所認為要精進我們就循修憲的程序我也支持秘書長這樣沒有錯嗎對不對所以我要說我今天在這裡要打假也要打詐賴清德總統沒有不來國會國情報告"},{"start":8954.574,"end":8975.96,"text":"他甚至是主動宣示他樂意來他主動他樂意所以賴清德未來的總統沒有不來立法院國情報告我要打假打詐第二個來報告怎麼進行中華民國的總統就要依據中華民國的憲法"},{"start":8978.346,"end":9000.979,"text":"這麼簡單如果說憲法的規定要調整那就修憲之後未來的總統依修憲之後來另一套國情報告的程序大家可以接受但是現行的憲法就是如此所以中華民國的憲法依憲形式如果立法委員就把它說為是不尊重國會這大有問題"},{"start":9002.125,"end":9002.165,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9018.596,"end":9041.625,"text":"我就不贅述喔國民黨民眾黨有一些提案不僅違憲更移效國際也就是要把總統就目前的憲法規範來立法院是報告而不是詢答更不是急問急答更不是常態化依現行的法制就是違憲會移效國際下一頁"},{"start":9044.642,"end":9052.885,"text":"在野黨的委員都喜歡比美國驚豔我們來看美國驚豔美國的憲法第二條第三項說總統應經常向國會報告聯邦的施政並向國會提出他認為必要跟適當的措施好從1790年華盛頓總統開始本人赴國會報告傑弗遜總統1801年改為書面向國會報告1913年威爾遜總統恢復是本人到國會報告"},{"start":9074.093,"end":9097.989,"text":"期間從1913年到現在的2024年美國總統到國會發表國情咨文有88次而當中呢尼克森1973年卡特1981年都是用書面的國情咨文而拜登總統在今年剛剛完成的國情報告2024年的3月8號他是本人所以美國的憲法的經驗是"},{"start":9100.771,"end":9127.774,"text":"總統沒有強制要到場但是總統他判斷他要去他樂意去而不只本人他可以書面為之更重要的是美國沒有現場詢答我們來看一段影片這是拜登總統2024年3月8號剛發表完的在美國國會的國情咨文沒有聲音沒關係他意思是God bless you allGod bless America"},{"start":9129.056,"end":9138.327,"text":"他報告完之後他就轉身向主席致意然後離開這是美國的制度下一頁"},{"start":9140,"end":9162.027,"text":"所以說美國的國情咨文進行的程序是總統進入一場大廳所有人起立鼓掌介紹總統正式發表國情咨文總統愛講多久就講多久上次拜登講了快兩個小時總統發表完之後隨即離開兩黨的議員不論你的政治觀點如何的分歧不會干預報告的進行不會對總統進行質問或提問不會對國情咨文進行後續的討論或表決"},{"start":9167.549,"end":9193.15,"text":"美國制度在這裡我們來看法國制度就是馬克宏總統在法國的國會不好意思我不會法文我沒有辦法翻譯喔他也是報告完之後接受法國國會議員的鼓勵起立鼓掌他離開好下一頁所以法國一憲法法國憲法第18條第二項"},{"start":9196.087,"end":9224.2,"text":"避免對內閣制或總統制產生混淆總統是不對國會負責所以呢總統進行國會演說之後後續的法國的國會議員確實可以進行辯論或表決但是他必須在總統離場之後這是法國的雙首長制、半總統制也是中華民國憲法1997年修憲之後我們援引的憲政經驗我們適用最多是法國案例"},{"start":9225.14,"end":9246.12,"text":"所以說就國際經驗我們來看外國是這樣。Seeing is believing我秀出相關的美國法國的憲法條文以及它的實際的國情報告的影片。周恩來老師我從年輕時代我一再說"},{"start":9247.608,"end":9263.708,"text":"我就拜讀您的所有的專書我20出頭就是國會幕僚我甚至還在大學我就是1997年國民大會修憲的現場的政策助理所以台灣中華民國的憲法如何從訂定為現在的"},{"start":9268.177,"end":9292.153,"text":"辦總統制：雙首長制那個過程我都在現場我不敢賣弄我沒有您專業所以我會買您的書來研讀就您這一本立法院職權行使法的逐條試論2020年又再版了你看一直再版一直再版因為他寫得太好了他是所有一循議事規則職權行使人都要讀的Bible我們來看看在Bible上面怎麼寫"},{"start":9293.683,"end":9315.697,"text":"周萬來老師針對立法委員邀請總統來國情報告可不可以詢答呢周萬來老師說僅賦予立法院聽取總統國情報告的權利但不得就政府施政向其提供建言周萬來老師的這本書是在第155頁嗎155頁我希望周萬來老師"},{"start":9323.021,"end":9330.821,"text":"永遠是我們學習擷取意識經驗的周萬來老師我甚至覺得您是周萬能秘書長"},{"start":9332.182,"end":9359.977,"text":"但是萬能秘書長不要基於政黨的壓力而成為萬萬不能我想您不會您絕對不會我對您尊重我也肯定下一頁那我再分享一下馬英九跟王金平那個時候2012年馬英九總統受邀到立法院國情報告的時候當時的總統府發言人范江太吉說"},{"start":9361.454,"end":9375.924,"text":"如果堅持要加入詢答．將創下憲政惡例嚴重破壞憲法規定這是2012年總統府馬英九的發言人范江太基先生所說的馬總統接受國會的質詢違反憲法"},{"start":9379.326,"end":9400.72,"text":"我們再看看2015年王金平院長的時候他也是當時也邀請馬英九針對馬席會對不起不是邀請是國民黨主動馬總統說他要來國會報告王金平院長說質詢最危險因為總統不是國會監督的對象王金平院長說的"},{"start":9402.421,"end":9426.081,"text":"您是立法院的活字典同樣的王金平院長是我們永遠敬重的國會的偉大的領袖王金平院長所說的那我手上呢又拿到這是國民黨的智庫很專業我非常肯配國民黨的投入很多的資源讓學者專家做學術研究"},{"start":9427.541,"end":9445.116,"text":"這個國政評論財團法人國政基金會所做的研究報告2008年針對要不要總統到國情報告的時候這是國民黨智庫的研究結論根據憲政主義的思考憲法並未賦予立法委員得諮詢總統的權利這是總統"},{"start":9449.079,"end":9475.081,"text":"的國會咨文國民黨智庫的意見2012年國政基金會的學者再次研究針對同一議題結論是什麼應從憲法規定做起以嚴肅的態度看待此事否則只會變成國會笑話也會變成國際笑話這是國民黨的智庫所以我今天花了這些時間下一頁"},{"start":9477.5,"end":9479.921,"text":"謝謝委員我簡單的大概區分當然你有所中我有執行刑事法裡面的這一章吧"},{"start":9501.955,"end":9521.081,"text":"這裡我要去問兩個做報告職權行使法不能逾越憲法的精神跟規定我剛也舉我那書裡面我要先釐清兩點第一個就是說這個憲法遵修條文裡面的這個第四條第三項裡面這樣的一個規定裡面來"},{"start":9526.301,"end":9551.788,"text":"時間寶貴我再兩分鐘跟你報告就是說這個第四條第三項嘛所以這一個在前面剛才引述我在第一頁的那一本書的前言有說明我不是在前言我是用你具體的QA是是是就是第二章我第二章這一本在第二章之一的這個書裡面所寫的第一個狀況就是說這一個憲法徵修條文這樣改了以後"},{"start":9552.568,"end":9553.068,"text":"立法院對於國情報告他有決定權當然"},{"start":9569.634,"end":9597.726,"text":"我們可以決定要不要邀請總統來決定權在立法院各黨團要不要邀請總統來所以憲政史上也曾經發生過2012年是由民進黨、臺聯、親民黨共同提案邀請陳水扁總統來也曾經發生過只有國民黨單獨提案都有所以立法委員對於邀請總統的諮詢權是在於邀請要不要來的這個決定權而不是詢答的決定權"},{"start":9599.795,"end":9619.209,"text":"這個詢答的部分啦,因為剛才,我也有提到155頁裡面所寫的啦那155頁所寫的這個是我剛才跟歐委員在做我自己的個人的說法因為這裡面的,民主自由的責任正是我們在向往徵求台灣的第三條地方向自己談的問題"},{"start":9620.289,"end":9625.492,"text":"我希望我們就這個事情就回到憲法精神時代在進步如果台灣針對制度要精進我們就循修憲的程序否則依循我們的憲法該怎麼做就怎麼做我要提出沉重的嚴肅的呼籲也謝謝我第二個主題完全沒有時間問下次希望能夠再安排相關的報告"},{"start":9648.865,"end":9650.246,"text":"謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席 謝謝大家"},{"start":9663.997,"end":9686.483,"text":"臨時提案一,針對高等法院前行政庭長洪瑜志涉嫌在中文誌違反政交法審理程序中向陳審法官施壓,要求自請回避之爭議,以涉及重大違法之缺失,此請司法院本於全責,就此爭議進行調查,並在二個月內向本委員會提出調查報告結果。提案委員黃國昌,謝龍健,羅志強,翁曉林"},{"start":9689.352,"end":9689.372,"text":"好﹚呃"},{"start":9722.053,"end":9743.999,"text":"我們現在進行處理第一案請問提案委員有沒有需要補充謝謝主席我想剛剛詢答的過程以及問問題的內容大家其實都可以看得到我必須要說明一下第一個我在上一次質詢的時候我已經把問題給點出來了"},{"start":9747.037,"end":9756.913,"text":"這個不是在審判中的事項這個是在審判外發生的狀況第二個目前這個案件也脫離了高等法院的訴訟系數第三個"},{"start":9760.014,"end":9778.957,"text":"高等法院竟然都已經發了新聞稿所以有誤會但我今天早上詢答的時候我是請教秘書長是哪裡有誤會是有去要他自請迴避但不構成施壓還是連叫他去自請迴避這件事情都沒有那秘書長不願意回答"},{"start":9779.915,"end":9805.155,"text":"那既然不願意回答也不要浪費大家的時間那就讓司法院等於他們的權責去進行調查其他兩個月以後把這個報告向本委員會報告那總不能說連這麼離譜的事情我們立法院司法法制委員會都不能監督那請問針對臨時提案那司法院這裡有沒有其他意見或說明"},{"start":9816.803,"end":9817.143,"text":"主席"},{"start":9835.845,"end":9835.925,"text":"那個喔"},{"start":9865.603,"end":9871.189,"text":"秘書長請回,我們要針對秘書長詢問我是建議請主席可以再釐清本委員會的權責"},{"start":9879.386,"end":9896.988,"text":"首先我想要跟主席提醒今天我們邀請兩院的秘書長是就總統赴立法院進行國情報告的事項那剛剛主席有答覆了會邀請司法院是因為涉及到一些對憲法解釋上的看法沒有錯吧"},{"start":9897.549,"end":9922.292,"text":"那麼我後來問了秘書長：秘書長也說得很清楚對於院紀之間或憲法最高機關就憲政機關的爭議等於司法最後性原則他們不便一開始就跳出來那目前也沒有針對總統到立法院來進行國情報告有任何的申請事件要求憲法訴訟沒有所以他們基本上今天到本會來列席的義務已完畢"},{"start":9923.673,"end":9952.43,"text":"至於本委員會也要提醒主席跟我們其他委員做個參考立法院設置8個委員會是成院會之指派進行法案預算案等案的先審查所以在一讀會院會通過之後交付本委員會我們僅是就院會交易的任務來進行審查然後審查完畢後再交給院會進行後續的二讀或三讀不管是法律案預算案都是如此"},{"start":9953.206,"end":9975.42,"text":"本委員會是向立法院的院會接受院會的交付工作就院會交付工作進行審議但是根據憲法條文行政院依左列規定向立法院負責本委員會只能就向立法院負責的各行政機關首長進行相關的詢問"},{"start":9979.915,"end":9998.299,"text":"這是為了我們要審議他的預算要了解他的業務並且作為我們立法之參考那麼至於司法院在憲法上他跟立法院是平行的都是憲政機關司法院沒有在憲法上有任何一個條文要向立法院負責"},{"start":10000.66,"end":10018.926,"text":"所以今天我們要請司法院來只是就他們的立法計畫請他們報告未來我們在審議司法院的預算的時候也可以就他預算執行立法院的權責預算審議權除此之外司法院的相關人員並無向立法院報告之義務"},{"start":10020.186,"end":10044.459,"text":"尤其是不管立法院所掌管的業務有沒有審理中的案件司法院自有監察院根據憲法的規定針對司法人員是否有履行公務人員應盡的義務公平審慎去處理這些司法案件那個時候是當監察委員基於獨立行使之權發動調查的時候司法院的人員有必要去監察院應調查"},{"start":10045.936,"end":10062.671,"text":"那如果大家對這個基本的憲法分際都還有一些疑議我還是再次提兩點第一委員會是呈院會之交付幫院會進行大會審議之前我們進行審查討論那並且請必要人員來作其報告"},{"start":10063.812,"end":10081.189,"text":"第二,憲法上沒有規定司法院跟行政院向立法院負責第三,請主席要注意建議提醒我們目前司法院的列席人員他僅是就今天我們突理到相關於憲法分際的總統大立法院進行國情報應應我們的邀請來做說明"},{"start":10084.997,"end":10105.958,"text":"秘書長已經說明完畢了我覺得當委員會不宜在逾越憲法的分際進行紊亂我們憲政體制的做法請問還有黃委員司法院秘書長到司法法制委員會來接受備詢這件事情"},{"start":10107.509,"end":10131.156,"text":"其他各個委員會．包括司法法制委員會．從來沒有規定臨時提案現於今天主題範圍之內第二個我針對這件事情所提出來的質詢本來就是國會可以進行監督的事項我剛剛已經說了這不是審判上發生的事情這是審判外發生的事情"},{"start":10132.216,"end":10156.932,"text":"而且這個個案早就脫離了高等法院的訴訟系數今天高等法院他可以在一天的時間當中他就發出了新聞稿那我們不能夠針對這個涉及這麼嚴重的事情要求司法院本於全責進行調查我沒有辦法理解剛剛那個路鏈的基礎到底是什麼"},{"start":10163.028,"end":10188.547,"text":"呃,好,來,五位針對這個提案,我請要分享一下我的觀點如果我沒有理解錯誤那基於黃總召在前前次的質詢裡頭針對司法院、高等法院的一個案子然後法官的審理過程有沒有迴避的事情有提出質詢那事後司法院回去是用新聞稿來回應說並沒有委員所說的這個情勢所以司法院是依他的質詢要捍衛他們實際調查的結果"},{"start":10190.368,"end":10195.591,"text":"我個人的看法就是我當然也同意今天主題以外的提案是可以提的這個是沒有問題的過去也都有慣例只是說提案的內容是不是涉及比較個案性的"},{"start":10216.102,"end":10216.683,"text":"主席 還有在場的委員"},{"start":10244.366,"end":10269.491,"text":"我是不曉得黃國昌委員所提的這個案子的實際的一個狀況那裡面的臨時提案裡面提到的是說針對高等法院的前行政庭長涉嫌在這個中文制違反政策法審理的程序中向陳審法官施壓要求迴避的一個爭議因為我不曉得這個具體是前提事實是不是正確"},{"start":10270.411,"end":10293.384,"text":"我是不了解因為個案我沒有那麼熟悉但是是不是我剛從秘書長的答覆裡面是類似於是講說是不是文字去做修正如果有涉及到爭議的那司法院本應他自己的一個權責去把它做一個釐清立法院在這個地方願計之間我相信這樣的一個提醒"},{"start":10294.344,"end":10320.793,"text":"我覺得還好啦我是覺得還好啦但是呢這些前提事實啊因為畢竟黃委員一直在專注這樣的一個議題他對這一個事情非常重有費力著力很深那事實的情況到底是怎麼樣司法院是不是也可以來做一個說明因為這件事情諮詢完以後你們應該也有做一定的一個調查"},{"start":10321.693,"end":10333.462,"text":"可不可以跟在場的委員也做說明一下好不好否則一個臨時提案這樣出來又要簽理事大家不清楚那真的是無從判斷那這樣齁是不是說我們"},{"start":10336.647,"end":10338.328,"text":"報告主席違憲的東西不能表決,四字第461就想很清楚,我要不要唸給大家聽"},{"start":10360.572,"end":10387.595,"text":"他說：立法院至於司法考試監察三院．得這既有所長之事項．向立法院提出法律案．各該機關之預算案得應立法院審查．則其所屬非獨立行使職權且副行政職務之人員．在本案就是我秘書長．與其提出之法律案．及有關預算案相涉之事項．亦為有依上開憲法規定應邀說明之必要．"},{"start":10388.988,"end":10405.608,"text":"很清楚嗎?今天司法院院長不用來,因為他是獨立行使的人員,大法官不用來。但是呢,如果是職務的向秘書長,他在兩個情況來,就向本院審理預算案、審理法律案的時候提出說明。"},{"start":10406.927,"end":10426.946,"text":"這是釋制第461號的很清楚的一個要旨我想這個案子在過去立法院也不是不曾發生過在民國85年那時候要邀請參謀總長來立法院備詢的時候因此有提出釋憲大法官也做出了如此的解釋請主席要慎思這不是一個可以透過立法院表決憲法違憲事項的內容"},{"start":10433.053,"end":10455.926,"text":"黃偉偉你說完之後我們就忙處理好了啦還是說你們要休息三分鐘溝通不用了我這樣說你好了啦我這樣說你好了啦今天如果通過這樣子的臨時提案司法院論文有違憲之餘的話那就請你們請你們自己去申請"},{"start":10460.993,"end":10485.118,"text":"司法院的秘書 今天邀的是司法院的秘書長今天有人要邀法官還是要大法官來這邊備詢嗎?第二個 我要強調一次這是審判外的事項我在開會的事情 就是司法官說現在司法官說沒有罪法官可以在裡面胡搞瞎搞 立法院不能監督 人民不能知道"},{"start":10487.822,"end":10494.727,"text":"司法院去申請事件的時候自己主張嘛這是審判獨立的事項嘛立法院沒有資格問嘛主席我要就教一下今天這個個案不管是不是系屬於法院他到底跟本院在審理司法院的預算案或法律案哪一個相關這個如果能夠說明那本席願意來恭臨這樣的一個指教"},{"start":10514.892,"end":10531.113,"text":"第2對於有無違憲的部分．如果本委員做出個決議．可能就到大院．到我們院會就受到挑戰了．司法院也可以不予理會本委員會的決議．除非我們對於司法院不理會本委員的決議．有意見"},{"start":10532.202,"end":10556.799,"text":"我們來提出那時候才由本院來提出釋憲的申請不是由司法院司法院他根本連釋憲人都不用提他就根本不理會你就好啦因為這非屬於法律案也非屬於預算案這是一個個案在這個國會的殿堂上針對個案詢問司法院不管他是秘書長還是法官都有涉及到為個案進行影響的可能性"},{"start":10559.582,"end":10560.102,"text":"共同的法律共同制度"},{"start":10593.018,"end":10610.368,"text":"共同的法律共同的遵守在國會殿堂應該有它一定的高度啦所以我覺得每一計畫大家就每一個人每一個計畫都要為歷史負責任所以我會覺得這個要很慎重的來看待"},{"start":10615.208,"end":10630.575,"text":"我爭取再一次發言我希望真的大家要慎思啦講完我們就停止了司法法制委員會在處理跟司法院有關的就是他的法律案跟預算案的處置啦我們真的不依舊各案"},{"start":10631.315,"end":10645.884,"text":"去進行我們有自己的價值判斷的提案真的要再次提醒我們難得看到司法院的秘書長有為有首站在他的職權上在回答問題的時候講得這麼沉重這麼嚴肅同一套"},{"start":10650.387,"end":10671.414,"text":"我們法律大家都要遵循我們是立法委員我剛剛看到秘書長在台上這一番話他誠懇的呼籲我是覺得蠻痛的啦我是希望大家要能夠為所當為那不要超越我們的權限好嗎我再次提醒這次不移就不移啦這個提案"},{"start":10678.171,"end":10706.388,"text":"我剛剛覺得綜合就是各個委員還有包括我們的司法院秘書長的那個回答就像我的建議就是做文字修正就是以涉及重大違法之缺失我覺得建議是改成是否涉及違法重大之缺失先不要先直接就是做一個文字上就太過肯定句那我覺得可以做一個所謂的那個疑問句"},{"start":10707.609,"end":10733.362,"text":"當然第二個就是說確實就各有利潤可是實際上在座我們沒有一個人是司法院的大法官所以到底是不是涉及違憲我覺得這個不是我們在座的人說了算所以那立法院還是有立法院我們的行使職權的尊嚴所以那既然在這邊有不同的意見我就會贊成主席講的那就是交付表決那只是說我提一個修正文字"},{"start":10735.102,"end":10753.456,"text":"中委員就修正文字部分喔對修正文字部分我提出再修正動議就是說這個部分我認同羅委員的說法我們文字上要盡量的避免去影響委員的分際那我建議最後面不是向本委員提出我們本委員會請移送監察院進行調查"},{"start":10754.477,"end":10780.177,"text":"因為能夠對司法案件的審理過程有任何疏失缺失的有調查權限的是監察院如果能夠在最後面就此爭議進行調查請司法院進行調查並向監察院提出說明那我們本委會也可以提出我們把本案陳儒黃委員的黃總召的意見一樣我們把這個案子交付給監察委員"},{"start":10781.197,"end":10807.004,"text":"讓監察委員受理後他們就司法院的調查報告進行必要的監督我覺得這樣才是符合如果說今天我們在目前的各立法委員民進黨是強烈持續主張廢除考監但是在憲法沒有修改之前五院的分際監察院負有監督行政包括司法行政這樣的職責我們立法委員不宜逾越所以我建議呢復議我們"},{"start":10808.244,"end":10812.946,"text":"國務委員的意見,除了文字修改之外,加上改由移請監察院進行調查。"},{"start":10834.696,"end":10836.177,"text":"主席我能不能花言一下勒"},{"start":10856.877,"end":10859.219,"text":"我們現在分A、B、C三案好了好不好?"},{"start":10877.473,"end":10891.125,"text":"這個我倒是對於說要向監察院提出調查這一點我還是有疑問因為司法院這個畢竟我們有一套的程序"},{"start":10894.088,"end":10921.245,"text":"不要不要一下子就說要向監察院提出這個這個調查或什麼我倒覺得倒不用那樣啦不用那樣還是任何事還是有一定比例原則這樣可能會比較好一點啦最好我是倒是很感謝政委員但是真的不要提到監察院我倒是會覺得這樣會比較好所以所以或許就剛剛"},{"start":10924.982,"end":10937.65,"text":"就這樣啦我們一定會本一前者來妥適處理啦本一前者啦本一前者那羅志強委員的文字修正我同意啊"},{"start":10939.764,"end":10955.616,"text":"是 我們現在總共是 我們第一個先表決中委員所提出來的修正 就是在最後面用以請監察院調查那個 我想 那是指我們沒有要求司法院向監察院提調查報告"},{"start":10956.457,"end":10958.318,"text":"所以中委員的意思是 到底是不是文字修正"},{"start":10986.758,"end":10989.281,"text":"請問在場的委員要不要休息兩分鐘給他處理一下我們休息三分鐘然後請他們那邊趕快做修正"},{"start":11010.513,"end":11010.793,"text":"主席"},{"start":11023.73,"end":11024.651,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11045.472,"end":11045.732,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11073.602,"end":11074.022,"text":"中華民國總統致敬"},{"start":11097.176,"end":11097.536,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11116.172,"end":11116.192,"text":"這段"},{"start":11139.139,"end":11139.32,"text":"主席"},{"start":11308.53,"end":11311.074,"text":"時間到我們現在開始開會剛剛好像大家有討論出一個結論"},{"start":11319.577,"end":11322.579,"text":"文字刪除以涉及重大違法之缺失"},{"start":11339.73,"end":11344.814,"text":"所謂雙方意見不一樣是哪一部分不一樣?知情還是建議那我講一下好了"},{"start":11367.647,"end":11389.413,"text":"這個題目齁上禮拜黃國昌委員也執行過他今天繼續追打那我們都很尊重每一個委員的發言權第一個第二個是什麼第二個就是說大官4461請大家翻一下1998年的時候我們民進黨要求常委參謀總統常委必須來立法院做報告"},{"start":11392.622,"end":11401.973,"text":"唐薇不來 唐薇不來以後 申請到法院試鑑所以當年7月份試出來 因為唐薇她是 她解釋得很清楚"},{"start":11403.086,"end":11429.44,"text":"五院先講常委的事情因為常委他雖然是沖謀總統他不來過去的慣例但是常委當沖謀總統這位置這麼重要和國防的經費預算等等他絕對有部長一樣等級的參與所以他必須來受立法院監督同時他槓上開花就解釋出來就是說五院之間的前者的問題當然"},{"start":11431.701,"end":11453.953,"text":"我們知道今天來,其實如已之前,好事宴亦乎如此,那司法院亦乎如此。所以那時候就講,他就大法院解釋出來,任務包括,其實包括這個司法院院長黑布萊利委員被刑,憲法的關係都是沒有,都是尊重沒有採過這條憲。所以那時候就講說,包括"},{"start":11458.035,"end":11483.127,"text":"考試院、司法院等等、建立院等等他們都是如意行使之前的所以不用來立法院除非就是秘書長有實際負責任務的人所以我們常常看到司法院秘書長、建立院秘書長、考試院秘書長都來立法院備請有關的司法、有關的醫生、法案今天這個案子立法院我們不管這個案子內容怎麼樣"},{"start":11484.212,"end":11500.583,"text":"我們每次都做決議對於個案,要去指揮、要去做調查,限多少時間來。那這個潛力可大了。不管這個案子,我覺得,我是覺得,紅樓商委員這個案子提案有它正當性,有它正當性。"},{"start":11501.758,"end":11527.146,"text":"那當然很多這個例子打開的時候以後依照這個立法院這樣做的話很多個案每次都提出來難道我們要表決嗎這是先前程式的問題所以大家很慎重來考慮這個事情不管進行以後我最好的方式就是剛才鄧家彬委員講的御中監察那樣調查就好了這本來就是如此嘛"},{"start":11528.787,"end":11542.959,"text":"我們在這裡指揮司法嗎?大家想清楚當然要表態也沒有問題但是大家想一想以後很多案子都可以這樣做這樣的要求"},{"start":11547.364,"end":11551.027,"text":"我們先依照立法院議事規則第35條我們宣告本案進行舉手表決那我們表決前我們先清點在場的委員人數"},{"start":11575.64,"end":11576,"text":"有修正的嗎?"},{"start":11589.35,"end":11618.189,"text":"我再說一次就是我剛剛已經說過了就是我們就原本的提案我們刪除的文字是以涉及重大違法之缺失這幾個字刪除掉那現在雙方的爭議只有一個部分就是到底是建請司法院本於全責還是知請司法院本於全責現在雙方的差距是在這個地方所以我們就本案到底是建議案還是決議案去進行表決"},{"start":11619.29,"end":11623.392,"text":"現在主席宣說就一個案了嘛同意跟不同意嘛 對不對就是知請這個案子之後同意不同意嘛沒有所謂的建起嘛因為提案者已經拒絕修正了嘛"},{"start":11647.25,"end":11650.967,"text":"那如果說真的要這樣的表決,依會議程序應該先"},{"start":11653.75,"end":11676.488,"text":"先用見請來表決,然後再來表決知情現在他們怎麼總統都沒關係這是一個信任城市分子你要用比較有面子的寫法還是太硬的寫法都尊重我們就本案,因為原案就是知請所以我們現在是就是否改為見請"},{"start":11678.169,"end":11678.87,"text":"主席現在只有一個案在場"},{"start":11701.977,"end":11714.062,"text":"一個案在場嘛,那就同意不同意做表決而已嘛沒有兩個案啦,沒有所謂的,因為既然大家不同意有修正同意在場,我們就一個案表決我們現在就進行表決齁對於改為知請案這個部分大家是否同意,同意的請舉手"},{"start":11736.352,"end":11737.193,"text":"那不同意的請舉手"},{"start":11753.257,"end":11782.587,"text":"好 那我想我們這個贊成的是多數 那我們就是依照總會長您多數 二四六好 那本件 本臨時提案 此部分就改為知請司法院本與全者那表決結果總共是在場有11人 那贊成者有6人 反對者有5人那本案贊成者多數 那就改為知請 以此通過好 那現在進行第二案"},{"start":11785.674,"end":11786.414,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11812.987,"end":11840.218,"text":"來 第二案的部分剛有跟那個秘書長討論過所以就文字的部分法制局三個字以及最後一段法制局三個字以及修法建議版本那個修法兩個字把它刪除掉好 那做這樣的修正 那請問有無不同意見沒有的話 臨時提案通過好 那我們接續請傅坤祺委員詢答"},{"start":11844.225,"end":11845.906,"text":"主席每一個委員都有他的權益"},{"start":11871.487,"end":11892.025,"text":"當主席已經宣布提出討論以後就不可以再容許任何人再干擾議事因為他們的誣賊戰術可以搞到下午所以討論時間是有其一定的範圍討論完就開始做會議處理提案處理謝謝我們請兩位秘書長請兩位秘書長柯建銘你不要跑啊"},{"start":11907.719,"end":11927.447,"text":"委員好本席有一件事情要先肯定一下這個秘書長吳三龍秘書長您剛剛有一個非常重要的意思表達我想在這裡剛剛大家也都聽到了就是"},{"start":11930.799,"end":11957.277,"text":"剛剛委員所提出的提案的決議應該司法院本域之前來調查調查完之後只要是社會矚目的事情我們司法院要固守其人民信賴的價值的底線必須讓人民能夠了解我們也尊重司法院獨立調查但是只要報本院就可以"},{"start":11959.033,"end":11988.149,"text":"如果送監察院小雲在嗎?八次嫖妓對價清楚竟然腐敗到不能再腐敗的監察院只有兩個人沒有麻木不仁這種院還在送華民國臺灣羞恥所以吳秘書長你讓監察院沒有來羞辱司法院"},{"start":11989.25,"end":11991.051,"text":"國會是承載2300萬民意的地方"},{"start":12017.54,"end":12045.038,"text":"比任何一個歷任的總統所擁有的名義都更高當今現任當選的總統只有40%的名義而新一任的國會卻是有百分之百的全國的名義在這裡來做所有國家事務的監督本期要再強調一下也請主席 抱歉我們也在大家也在溝通也在學習"},{"start":12046.698,"end":12072.028,"text":"只要是立法院必須要負責審議預算的部會還是五院立法院都有必要行監督之職沒有什麼叫院計分計不來預算就不要送到立法院來這個是講一次就好 不要講很多次"},{"start":12073.454,"end":12099.618,"text":"講很多是閹割立法院羞辱自己而已本席今天聽到第二次了第一次本席沒有說話但是再聽到第二次是很誇張的事情只要立法院只要預算要送到立法院來當然要送到立法院的整體的負責因為立法院要對人民負責這預算為什麼可以通過執行的情況怎麼樣有沒有人模不章我們本來就應該要監督的另外齁"},{"start":12103.49,"end":12104.57,"text":"為什麼共同採購契約還有立法院所找來的這些協力廠商這個價格都如此的離譜"},{"start":12130.287,"end":12152.381,"text":"一個國會在負責監督所有的國家的各單位我們這裡都沒有辦法自清的話何以面對國人所以秘書長其實本席剛剛蠻失望的齁您說你沒有建議韓院長齁如果你真的沒有建議韓院長的話"},{"start":12153.817,"end":12180.758,"text":"我覺得秘書長 您要再考慮一下因為您回到立法院之後我要說明 剛才謝委員是問這一個連市連市我沒有建議錢 我要先補充一下但是呢 所有在立法院現在的這些奇怪的現象一定要把它清乾淨其實秘書長是負責所有大局的人"},{"start":12183.001,"end":12210.147,"text":"院長副院長凡事都是要多請教秘書長事實上就是如此秘書長本來就是中管業務的嘛本來就是這樣嘛所以下面有貪贓枉法違法私持本來秘書長就要把他揪出來就要來處理本期在這裡再分享一個過去發生的事情過去所謂有一個台銀的共同採購契約"},{"start":12212.775,"end":12238.601,"text":"當時政府一直在補助所有的縣市或鄉鎮公所全部的水銀燈要改成LED的燈本席就很好奇當時我在擔任縣長我就問了經濟部能源局為什麼要用共同採購契約我聽不懂因為他們報的價格是大概市場上的3到4倍"},{"start":12239.639,"end":12267.476,"text":"而且接受國家的補助 內應局的補助竟然只能用共同採購契約所以本期 當時當任縣長的時候縣政府拒絕拒絕這個補助結果呢 直接補助到鄉鎮公所補助完之後呢 就來抓了一半的鄉鎮長被抓了 一半的議員被抓了LED採購案為什麼國家容許這麼大的Range讓他們去發放回購"},{"start":12269.881,"end":12294.656,"text":"所以這個都是啊因為當時本席不是立法委員所以這個問題我一直到今天都很好奇為什麼可以放縱國家到這種情況這個可能也要請這個司法院我們吳秘書長也要去了解為什麼有這麼離譜的狀況我想我們今天就這個所謂今天大家爭執的重點"},{"start":12296.512,"end":12324.1,"text":"還是總統到立法院來做國情報告過去總統一直沒有辦法來因為在野黨認為說這是他的秀場不要讓他來這裡來做秀所以呢一直阻擋總統到立法院的國情報告但是今天的在野黨我們要在這裡清楚明確的表達我們是可以"},{"start":12327.98,"end":12345.396,"text":"讓總統來到立法院做國情報告但是能不能急問急答這是今天我們在討論的問題本期要再生表達政委黨本來就有他監督的天職而不是讓立法院成為"},{"start":12348.277,"end":12373.608,"text":"運動馬戲團的這種秀場不是來這裡作秀的而是要清楚的表達對國家未來的方向要走到哪裡去要很明確的讓民眾能夠了解所以我在這裡本席在這裡我們看一下兩張這個自封為民進黨所派的第16席大法官柯敬明柯總召在當時馬總統要不要到立法院做國情報告的時候"},{"start":12374.616,"end":12374.676,"text":"不要動輒"},{"start":12397.236,"end":12423.329,"text":"今天一個泱泱的執政黨動不動就罵在野叫做毀憲亂政所有在野黨所提出來的法案修正案國會陽光法案都說是毀憲亂政我們要再次強調國民黨提出的國會改革無法就是當時民進黨2015年所提出來的而且當時馬英九總統是不是能到立法院做國情報告下一頁"},{"start":12425.612,"end":12453.304,"text":"柯總召講得非常清楚就是急問急答我想這個大家都看得到就是急問急答所以我想今天為什麼民進黨一個包辦最清新最連任的一個政黨短短30年腐敗成這個樣子過去他們所主張的青年價值現在都跑到哪裡去了"},{"start":12454.673,"end":12480.983,"text":"所以本席在這裡真的是很奇怪因為本席見證了30多年民進黨成長的歷程但是沒有想到腐化至此而且今天繼續在執政繼續在執政只得到40%的民意有沒有謙卑的來看待所有在黨提出的這些法案有沒有大家一起來商量是不是對國家未來的發展更好"},{"start":12483.22,"end":12511.268,"text":"有沒有好好思考這個問題為什麼執政黨的立委不是對人民負責而是對他的黨負責天天來監督在野黨 國會議員我們應該是大家一起來討論把所有腐敗的情況讓陽光能夠照進來而不是用所有的手段來杯葛在野黨所以啊 我覺得那個"},{"start":12512.659,"end":12541.325,"text":"秘書長 周秘書長你下次可以很勇敢的告訴他們柯總召你依然在立法院你當時民進黨的堅持是什麼你們的理想是什麼到今天還存在嗎這樣子回答他們就可以了那個也謝謝吳秘書長因為啊有很多司法發生的問題"},{"start":12542.537,"end":12542.697,"text":"黃國昌總召"},{"start":12563.243,"end":12589.597,"text":"也是讓我們的政府有一個防腐的機制讓大家一起來審思一起來討論一起來面對問題一起來解決問題讓人民能夠更加信任司法我覺得吳秘書長也是應該欣然接受沒有什麼無不可告人也今天就是我們司法必須要讓國人能夠相信所以今天只提出了一個提案而已"},{"start":12591.291,"end":12591.411,"text":"可以請回"},{"start":12630.984,"end":12636.93,"text":"我們現在請吳宗憲委員質詢好 謝謝那我們請周秘書長好 有請周秘書長"},{"start":12642.641,"end":12666.957,"text":"主委秘書長你好委員好我想說本來是有準備了一些憲法上面的問題要請教但是從早上到現在其實已經非常多委員有質詢過了那我想說我大概也知道你那邊你的意思那我想說我想穿插一個東西就是"},{"start":12668.358,"end":12678.613,"text":"因為從早上的謝鴻介委員還有剛剛的傅坤祺總召他都一直提一個東西就是立法院的 立法院裡面有一些"},{"start":12680.43,"end":12707.681,"text":"採購或一些東西他們覺得沒有辦法理解那我跟民主黨說明一下我一直以來我就沒有辦法接受這些事情所以從我到國會之後知道這裡面的亂象然後我再去跟我以前的同事們討論他們也都說基本上他們不會就是說立法院這邊如果沒有主動告發他們也不會過來查我不管問過檢察官問過調查局都是這樣跟我講那"},{"start":12710.223,"end":12723.218,"text":"這個東西已經不是一個一個一個單獨的個案他是一個大家都有意見的東西包括到今天這兩個執行台當時的處長跟我說這兩個執行台弄好要三個月"},{"start":12724.301,"end":12738.106,"text":"那我也聽不下去了我想說秘書長當時你也在場以及我記得我來這邊當主席的第一天處長來這邊他也是做這樣的說明說這個東西要幾個月搬這兩個台子要幾個月"},{"start":12740.087,"end":12759.384,"text":"我認為這種東西我不知道這是什麼意思他在刁難誰以及他是不是一定要再安排又要幹什麼我們沒有辦法理解但是我是心裡一直沒有辦法接受這些事情那有關這個立法院裡面的一些東西譬如說大家都在嘲笑說有一個"},{"start":12760.245,"end":12761.626,"text":"若不方便查可以交給我來查"},{"start":12776.468,"end":12798.75,"text":"我其實我把當初的幫我一起查素貪的團隊我已經拉了很多人過來我當時的目的只是想說做一個比較專業的問政我可以把就是說我們在了解一些事情的時候在調查一些事情的時候對行政院的一些單位我們想要去了解所以我把一些好手都帶過來了"},{"start":12800.131,"end":12808.231,"text":"那如果說有這個必要我辦公室絕對全力支援秘書長我們來當做一個案子嘛我就"},{"start":12810.219,"end":12839.115,"text":"把自己當作以前的那個個性我來查嘛我來幫你看資料有問題我們就把他函送給檢方辦啊我們去告發啊報告委員謝謝你我會請我們副秘書長去你辦公室請教我會請就專責啦我會為我們這一個會期數我會請張副秘書長去跟他採購有沒有問題驗收有沒有問題我想我們前半政府採購法都是這樣辦嘛我了解因為我知道"},{"start":12839.795,"end":12864.487,"text":"那今天因為不是一個委員問題 是一堆委員跟我講說這個怎麼是這樣玩那我會想嘛 就像早上謝鴻介委員說的你今天你一直說你去找各局處 各部會有什麼問題結果到最後最大的問題在我們這裡我想說這個誰都看不下去那這些人是公務員欸違反 他們是犯的是貪污罪條例或政府採購法 該辦就辦"},{"start":12866.648,"end":12866.768,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12884.562,"end":12911.443,"text":"那接下來我想請教秘書長就是剛剛我們其實有從早上到現在一直討論很多東西嘛就是有關我們不要再談很多其他的部分我們就談一個到底這個什麼集問集答啦同問同答到底是來做報告還是來接受質詢我想請教一個法律上面一個很簡單的邏輯就是我們不管說違憲或違法那在我國的法制上面的概念是不是"},{"start":12912.344,"end":12924.654,"text":"要違反明文禁止或依據法律條文解釋禁止或者是說法律有告訴你你應該依循怎麼做而你沒有做那個才叫違憲或違法"},{"start":12926.846,"end":12944.815,"text":"因為我在專題報告寫得很清楚就是說這個詢答的方式你是要像民眾黨員所提的依序及時答覆或是急問急答的方式那這個方式由"},{"start":12946.058,"end":12957.145,"text":"各位委員在審查會或在院會裡面自己審酌怎麼考量就沒有涉及到是不是違憲那違憲不是我們自己提的這是一個邏輯上的問題所以我剛剛講的是邏輯上的問題就是說"},{"start":12961.948,"end":12978.934,"text":"違憲或違法一定是第一違反法律或憲法明文規定第二違反法律或憲法從條文文字上去解釋的規定第三就是條文或憲法它有告訴你怎麼做而你不這麼做這才是違憲或違法還有沒有第四種"},{"start":12980.892,"end":13006.319,"text":"應該沒有嘛 對不對所以說我們這個邏輯嘛那我請教一下不能即問即答不能同問同答這個有規定不行嗎因為我對於法律的理解是我們法律沒有規定不行或我們法律沒有強制你要這麼做的時候其實我們是一個自由的國家我們怎麼做應該沒有違法或違憲的問題吧"},{"start":13008.7,"end":13023.153,"text":"報告委員這個過程裡面因為有這一個專案報告需要我來報告所以我才會跟各位報告15條之四裡面當時的國民黨因為我們現在憲法生修條就寫前面一段"},{"start":13024.254,"end":13040.21,"text":"得請總統到立法院來做國情報告後面沒有了所以我才會把那個報表裡面國民大會當時在施行的時候因為他沒辦法他沒辦法 裡面是總答覆那我現行的主權秘書法我剛才也報告過是"},{"start":13042.145,"end":13066.222,"text":"因為草擬的是呂協章委員他本身是國民大會代表來的所以他寫的是用總合答戶所以就有一個基本的設計那是現行法所以現行法目前規定是總合答戶那你要改成這樣當然由審查會怎麼各位委員自己去審酌然後再提這有沒有違憲那當然那是因為違憲"},{"start":13068.363,"end":13093.443,"text":"有一個人就是我們當事同仁馬上傳一個訊息給我說他的標題是這樣下秘書周恩來秘書長打臉藍白委員這是這樣嗎我從頭我剛坐在這裡我從頭聽到尾我真的聽不出來是哪裡有打臉這個標怎麼下成這樣我覺得這跟事實不符啦明顯有謬誤不是他聽錯就是他不想聽對"},{"start":13094.824,"end":13096.025,"text":"周恩來秘書長打臉藍白委員這件事應該沒有"},{"start":13111.072,"end":13125.498,"text":"我要跟委員報告這一個書面包很清楚看第5頁第5頁就很清楚這一個狀況我寫在那邊就代表我來報告一定要對這個我自己的書面包負責"},{"start":13127.359,"end":13144.313,"text":"我想說蠻謝謝秘書長我對你也非常的尊敬不管是前輩或是我來這裡其實我來這裡當選上召委其實我從那一天開始我每天都在K你的書所以真的很蠻尊敬你"},{"start":13144.933,"end":13168.523,"text":"最後我想說剛剛其他委員問過的問題我想我就不再重複了那我想說跟您提醒一個就是這國會助理這個法制化的部分因為其實外面在我以前還沒有還沒有進來立法院的時候我常聽到很多人在講說那個助理作威作福啦便當助理一大堆啦就是有非常多的亂象"},{"start":13169.803,"end":13192.897,"text":"這些亂象不管是事實或只是謠言其實對我們立法院多多少少都會有一點傷害那所以我想請教一下對於這個國會助理法制化這個東西目前狀況是怎麼樣其實現在國會助理法制化我現在已經理清了法制化的概念了因為我們現在的現在從82年開始那時候的秘書長是謝聖夫秘書長他還當過法官"},{"start":13199.261,"end":13217.912,"text":"那你的釐清上可能如果老的記者會了解到曾經有為了助理有走到劉院長的辦公室外滿一鍋抗議啦那包括馬永成大概就比較理解這位後來當中華民國秘書長所以後來就改成"},{"start":13218.812,"end":13231.959,"text":"助理這一塊我們的法規裡面是有法規有規定各位可以看到立法院主持法裡面都有一些規範啦那這個你說法治化是由但是那一切是變成由固執負責助理"},{"start":13234.2,"end":13255.22,"text":"連署 現在我大概 我一來我一把 我這個委員手中也看了 他也在修了 包括他們的福利都有但是任用上 因為剛才委員的提案裡面有寫到 任用或是什麼 因為目前是由僱主來擔任 就是委員自己當僱主啦"},{"start":13256.2,"end":13271.908,"text":"這個是不是要重新再演繹所以我才剛才跟委員報告說由我們自己在法治局臨時處在整個整體來看到底的一個情況是這樣那這部分就麻煩秘書長我們一定要助理其實很多人跟我說"},{"start":13273.433,"end":13296.489,"text":"委員的強跟不強不是委員本身是助理所以真的核心是在助理他們的作為其實也在跟著我們一起在改變改善這個國家所以我們一定要注意而且我們要很重視他們的不管福利啦他的考核或是一些我們都還是要盡量幫他注意最好是有一個明確的規範最後問一個很輕鬆的問題"},{"start":13298.51,"end":13299.751,"text":"其實我從考試委員卸任已經三年半了"},{"start":13325.991,"end":13341.044,"text":"韓偉來找我的時候我本來是各位了解這種年齡了所以我是當時是沒有我還是晚睡了那他非常希望很誠懇的後來我也說服到我太太那他也接受了那這一個月我個人是認為"},{"start":13343.666,"end":13369.601,"text":"以我自己的在他旁邊這一個多月我是認為他不是外界所對他的那些評價他自己非常對自己非常我們從旁邊來看啦他對自己非常守他自己的一個他可能外界對以前他所說的他完全是沒有所以他比外界所說的連酒他都不沾啦而且他非常守時那時間上他會很在乎的守時"},{"start":13372.262,"end":13396.654,"text":"各方面他是都非常積極的扮演他國會議長的角色所以我是非常以幕僚長的角度來看我是非常對他是非常這一個多月來我是非常敬佩他所以我就蠻肯定跟贊同好謝謝秘書長那我們就現在至少我可以另外還可以確認一件事就是秘書長你沒有打臉我們"},{"start":13397.734,"end":13397.754,"text":"謝謝秘書長"},{"start":13420.236,"end":13430.621,"text":"我們補充宣告上午會議的時間就持續進行到所有登記發言的委員．詢答結束為止那接下來我們請鄭委員天才發言主席各位委員謝謝秘書長站在那邊首先要謝謝童義賢你的幫忙當然考試委員謝謝好這個"},{"start":13449.716,"end":13477.838,"text":"先讓秘書長還有各位委員瞭解為什麼總統需要來到立法院來做一個報告甚至要詢答我們看蔡總統她是第一個國家元首向原住民主道歉但是也做了非常好的承諾但是都沒有落實都沒有實現"},{"start":13479.209,"end":13503.538,"text":"他特別提到我們有相當進步的原住民族基本法但是這部法律沒有獲得政府機關普遍的重視這是在大概105年8月1號所做的道歉之後所說的話所以他要向原住民族道歉特別承諾我們會加快腳步"},{"start":13505.086,"end":13530.972,"text":"將原住民族最重視的原住民族自治法原住民族土地及海域法送立法院審議但是現在已經快8年了都沒有送來都沒有送來所以我們很想問他到底是怎麼一回事對不對原住民族都想知道這個答案他也特別在105年8月1號提到今年也就是105年的"},{"start":13533.312,"end":13559.319,"text":"11月1號我們會開始劃設公告原住民族的傳統領域土地部落公法人的制度我們已經推動上路了事實上都沒有到現在都沒有所以我們非常想要問他但是完全沒有機會尤其是這個原基法21條第4項規定中央人民會由中央原住民族主管機關"},{"start":13560.851,"end":13584.096,"text":"令定這個原住民族土地的畫設辦法是中央園民會的職遣喔結果行政院拿出來討論了還兩個政務委員呢兩個政務委員拿來討論這個園民會的職遣所應該要定的這個草案為什麼因為總統府有沒有看 總統府"},{"start":13587.948,"end":13614.779,"text":"副秘書長姚仁多他參加了這個行政院兩個政務委員所主持的會議而且很明確的在指導是否含私有土地由誰劃設由誰核定希望貴宴妥善處理因為他這計畫整個都改了人民會原來定的辦法就全部都改了所以我們當然要問總統"},{"start":13617.672,"end":13641.053,"text":"他指派了這個副秘書長不然這個副秘書長怎麼斗膽去跟政務委員要求啊要求說你要開這個會議然後你要照我的意思當然是總統的意思啊所以我們要問啊我們要問總統啊但是很可惜我們到現在沒有機會問了他也要卸任了所以憲法增修條文第4條第3項"},{"start":13644.601,"end":13671.917,"text":"這邊特別提到立法院於每年集會時得聽其總統國情報告這個國情報告這四個字其實是很廣的很廣的所以我們現在這個立法院之前刑事法有需要去修正這邊寫的是國情報告但是後面只剩下什麼就國家安全大政方針"},{"start":13674.02,"end":13697.87,"text":"現收國情報告現法徵修條文的國情報告這個四個字在立法院之前行使法第15條之二這個部分立法院要能夠他現收在就國家安全大政方針又多了一個條件所以這個部分這個都是需要去修正所以"},{"start":13699.042,"end":13716.128,"text":"之所以要請秘書長來做這個報告其實就是因為你在立法院很久不只是對立法院的瞭解也對過去的國民大會的瞭解很多所以"},{"start":13717.898,"end":13740.352,"text":"我是拜託秘書長能夠應該要盡量盡量的提供寶貴的意見讓立法委員在提案或是在審查的時候能夠有很好的一個處理所以這個部分是一個需要去處理的部分另外這條條文也必須要修"},{"start":13742.202,"end":13766.258,"text":"就其發言時間、人數、順序、政黨比例等事項,那變成還要抽籤了。如果是這樣的話,就被人家抽籤了。按照現在,就像我這個總質詢一樣,政黨質詢那個部分被人家抽籤。而我想問也沒機會問了,萬一沒有抽到,所以這個部分其實都應該,因為現在的這個"},{"start":13769.608,"end":13795.305,"text":"我們的當然我們這個我們的到底是總統是還是內閣是還是不總統這個都有問題啦所以應該在法裡面能夠讓立法委員能夠行使對總統的一個不管是急問急答還是怎麼樣這個大家應該好好討論所以這個秘書長要提供寶貴的意見好不好"},{"start":13796.221,"end":13824.177,"text":"謝謝大概我大概可能在報告裡面大概都有審酌啦大概就是這一個我這個報告是分成三四部分在做釐清的第一個就是剛才政委所提的範圍就是國情報告的那個主題的範圍啦剛才政委也提到吧那有點在大概在修法裡面各位可以去審酌嘛因為這個詢答的方式也是一樣就在我們自己"},{"start":13825.057,"end":13838.958,"text":"立法院自己本身是凝聚共識是不是有沒有剛才所說的違憲那不是將來有人是要求事件在變成運營在大網關的權限啦那不是在立法院做這個是不是有違憲的問題但是"},{"start":13841.049,"end":13841.709,"text":"我們接下來請洪孟楷委員"},{"start":13870.889,"end":13898.047,"text":"發言主席謝謝麻煩請我們周萬蘭秘書長好委員好好秘書長開門見山我們支持國家元首要來立法院做國情咨文為什麼因為現在大家都在講是說我們台灣到底是總統制雙手掌制內閣制"},{"start":13900.248,"end":13926.124,"text":"明明現在規定是雙手掌制但是因為總統民選之後好像權力越來越大可是常常有權無責有可以700多天不面對媒體的總統有可以不接受監督的總統但是又好像每一個影子每一個格緣都有在後面下指導旗的影子也因此我們認為總統來國會接受國情之文並且有相關的"},{"start":13926.784,"end":13931.075,"text":"跟民意代表來做一個互動我想這個是我們支持的方向但是"},{"start":13932.958,"end":13958.866,"text":"什麼樣的一個作為這一點好幾位委員都已經講過了立法委員之權行事法第15條行事方法時間內容人數都可以由政黨協商訂定之我想這也是周恩來秘書長您這邊你的報告本席也有看過那我們也再一次強調依法論法就法來講是不是本席剛講的都是法律上所規定的"},{"start":13959.684,"end":13964.247,"text":"我剛才特別提到這個國情報告以我們現在的限制上來講"},{"start":13977.054,"end":13990.237,"text":"立法院有決定權立法院有決定權我在我的書也是這樣沒有錯那如果說有朝野協商我們朝野協商如果說真的朝野協商協商不出來到最後用表決有沒有可能"},{"start":13994.022,"end":14016.798,"text":"方式決定本席現在講嘛如果說協商協商不出來那到時候可能各黨團提出各黨團提出總統來國情諮問之後所接受的不管是即問即答或是統問統答或者是怎麼樣的一個形式用各黨團版本來表決這樣可以嗎那這是立法程序當然是可以啊立法程序當然可以好 謝謝謝謝民務長來民務長"},{"start":14020.861,"end":14025.828,"text":"剛剛很多人都拿之前的這些在野時候啊柯建民總召的話本席也要講 真的"},{"start":14027.52,"end":14027.8,"text":"這是柯建民講的話"},{"start":14054.821,"end":14070.311,"text":"柯建民也講過﹖近幾個月﹖不管是瘦肉精、禽流感、油價、電價、學費、二代健保、一國兩區等問題﹖決策充滿太多爭議﹖有見國會監督的重要﹖呼籲馬英九以急問急答方式回答所有問題這是柯建民的話"},{"start":14073.157,"end":14092.993,"text":"甚至當時的在野也有黨團講說馬英九如果到立法院接受民意質問創下憲政首例也有助歷史定位否則才不會被諷刺為臉書總統這當時在野的話所以一樣道理本席認為啦"},{"start":14094.835,"end":14108.693,"text":"520之後賴清德總統當選人他可能會接受來到立法院首次的國情咨文但更重要的是希望能夠創下一個可長可久的憲政慣例讓後續民選的總統都依規可循"},{"start":14109.474,"end":14124.876,"text":"所以這一點你我我們大家都在寫歷史我也希望秘書長能夠協助院長好好的依法論法就法我們在立法委員職權新書法第15條寫得非常清楚立法院可以決定相關的進行沒錯吧"},{"start":14127.85,"end":14142.548,"text":"其實復原的版本跟歐元版本都有寫的一項雖然你們是寫在第15條之一如果以立法院的角度問我個人意見"},{"start":14143.709,"end":14168.22,"text":"我是覺得你們可以寫在這個第三項是可以因為賴中文不反對不反對立法院你就加在第三項就變成他那裡邊可能就變成那個條文會比較完整我從立法技術來說因為剛才歐美有提到一些第15條之一那我也特別整理出來我當時在立法院"},{"start":14171.615,"end":14186.904,"text":"劉院長指示我在寫這個執行刑事法的時候因為本來是對他意識規則啦那執行刑事法為什麼因為是法規範所以那時候我比較建議他後來他也接受我就變成立法院的意識規則是內規的一個提案討論表決啦"},{"start":14190.586,"end":14191.087,"text":"委員長最後一分鐘"},{"start":14218.843,"end":14234.284,"text":"我想本席看到當初司法法制委員會要講是說要偵測這個備詢台跟質詢台的時候當時的處長居然講說要半年的時間如今事在人為有心就有力不到兩個禮拜已經把電腦都架好 麥克風都架好了那"},{"start":14237.453,"end":14259.522,"text":"過去我們一直講說中興大樓說花500萬的電梯那到底現在驗收了沒所以我覺得好像人的弊端的問題大於做事啊委員長過去8年可能立法院有很多藏污納垢那你現在上任一個多月本席當然對你也很有期待新官上任也要三把火"},{"start":14260.963,"end":14284.162,"text":"來講一下中興大樓的電梯現在驗收完了沒早就驗收了早就驗收好了因為在我來之前林志嘉委員已經林志嘉秘書長林志嘉秘書長已經這一個早就驗收了是在他任內那為什麼中興大樓電梯還是常常發生這種有可能有這個shut down停擺甚至很多委員有被關在裡面有沒有去了解那個原因停擺在以前"},{"start":14284.542,"end":14296.348,"text":"因為這個我已經了解過了因為這個廠商當時原來可能他們在評審的時候認為用比較低價價格比較低的一個廠商原設計廠商"},{"start":14299.889,"end":14300.35,"text":"那是什麼標?你們當時的評審是用什麼標"},{"start":14321.689,"end":14334.209,"text":"報告委員那個中壢大樓的電梯是最有力標用平均最有力標用平均所以最有力標不一定是最低價喔不是不是我是指定廠商來做喔不是那秘書長這就有點狀況囉"},{"start":14336.451,"end":14352.736,"text":"如果說是用最有利標是指定廠商來做廠商做了之後但是還是讓大家覺得是說在中心大樓電梯裡面三不五時有發生問題那當然我們也看到上禮拜五韓國瑜院長也很負責的去每一樓層巡視"},{"start":14354.676,"end":14371.568,"text":"所以我現在要拜託秘書長新官上任三把火該查的我還是相信99%的公務人員都很辛苦很努力奉公守法但是不要讓害群之馬壞了一鍋粥這一點如果有任何弊端弊案的話要主動送政風處"},{"start":14372.729,"end":14391.505,"text":"我剛才跟你報告我剛才是在委員提的時候我會請我們副秘書長到委員的辦公室去請教在怎麼處理我想我們這個會結束我會請副秘書長把針對這一個會有質疑的部分因為總務部分我會請他"},{"start":14392.406,"end":14396.15,"text":"本席指要求的是在立法院至少不能有任何的弊端弊案那你上任一個多月的時間當然要去做"},{"start":14414.11,"end":14414.53,"text":"謝謝我我我"},{"start":14432.879,"end":14435.06,"text":"謝秘書長,我們還是高度期待,謝謝謝謝,那我們接下來請謝一鳳委員發言"},{"start":14460.207,"end":14485.632,"text":"謝謝主席我想請周秘書長秘書長我想請教一下就是根據現在就是目前我們的憲法徵修條文第4條以及立法院職權行使法的相關規定那到底就是說我們邀請總統來立法院做國情報告是我們的主動權還是他本來就應該要來的"},{"start":14489.346,"end":14509.094,"text":"因為現任秘書長是寫德,德指引他那因為我們自己立法院秘書長所規定的第15條之奧,它是有兩種一個是由我們立法院委員的提議,那經過院會做決議,我也請他來所以要經立法院委員做決議有兩種,這是第一種"},{"start":14512.675,"end":14539.255,"text":"第二種是他自己要到立法院來報告那要我們同意他才可以做國情報告所以我才會說這個國情報告立法院是有決定權是這樣的意思所以就是有兩種情況第一種就是立法院做決議邀請總統來立法院做國情報告第二種是總統自請來立法院是吧"},{"start":14542.837,"end":14550.266,"text":"對,也是要經過立法委員的同意嗎?是不是?那目前其實我們是不需要修法"},{"start":14551.482,"end":14575.959,"text":"就可以讓總統來立法院做國情報告是嗎?那到底總統來立法院做國情諮問報告的時候是以一問一答的方式還是概括性的就是全面性的回答問題呢?"},{"start":14577.695,"end":14583.792,"text":"這涉及到修了之事目前的方式就是目前的方式我們是總額信答戶"},{"start":14586.124,"end":14607.463,"text":"各個國家因為他們憲政的規範不完全一樣那不完全一樣我剛才問了特別報告像民眾黨委員所提案的依序及時答覆或是副委員跟歐委員所提的版本問及答那這種方式上是由委員"},{"start":14608.644,"end":14609.665,"text":"以現行法是總和答戶"},{"start":14638.522,"end":14666.164,"text":"是總和答覆的就對了那我們也沒有辦法依照慣例就對了但是這一個裡面就我這樣念一下好不好就是說這第10會期司裡面他的第三項你要總和答覆還要總統同意總和答覆也要總統同意對對對 經總統同意是總和在做補充報告但是總和答覆的概念這個就是因為他國民大會的施行的方式是這樣那他如果不同意呢那不同意就沒辦法"},{"start":14667.003,"end":14686.898,"text":"他不同意是採什麼樣子的方式?是一問一答還是怎樣?只是來這裡把他想要報告的事項唸完而已?因為一個狀況下,如果以現行法的話,我們委員對他報告有不明瞭的提出問題"},{"start":14687.899,"end":14687.999,"text":"中華民國總統"},{"start":14704.599,"end":14706.621,"text":"所以總統不同意的話,我們也不用規定幾個人跟總統提出詢問嗎?是不是?"},{"start":14722.705,"end":14724.087,"text":"你剛才說的他可以不同意回答"},{"start":14738.567,"end":14743.429,"text":"現在因為我們的修法裡面是有兩種修法的方式吧那這個當然有委員自己"},{"start":14765.1,"end":14765.861,"text":"王宏威委員"},{"start":14792.214,"end":14792.454,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":14799.059,"end":14799.219,"text":"邀請立法院秘書長"},{"start":14829.699,"end":14854.171,"text":"當然這個態度我們是非常非常的肯定然後備詢與否他也尊重朝野協商的結果就是我們有朝野協商的機制所以如果賴清德未來的總統他也可以接受包含來做國情報告來做備詢我覺得對我們立法院來講我們當然是舉雙手的歡迎"},{"start":14859.396,"end":14870.969,"text":"民進黨一直用所謂的什麼毀憲亂政等等來做一些阻擋其實我也不曉得他們要擋什麼啦因為如果連賴清德自己本身都願意那麼事實上"},{"start":14872.471,"end":14891.088,"text":"這個總統本來就要傾聽人民的意見而且本來就要跟人民報告那麼事實上連美國美國總統也是定期舉行記者會他也定期舉行記者會但是呢我們的蔡總統大家都知道他有高達745天都沒有召開過記者會"},{"start":14892.449,"end":14905.365,"text":"在這個過程中不要說我們曾經經過疫情的快篩之亂疫苗之亂、光電弊案、論文案還有一些社會安全網的問題那時候大家都非常希望能夠從總統那邊能夠讓"},{"start":14908.709,"end":14908.729,"text":"未來﹚"},{"start":14928.576,"end":14952.666,"text":"未來它的就是接受質詢備詢的部分備詢的部分是不是經過朝野協商按照我們現在所修正的版本就是經過朝野協商包含比如說它的時間它到底是每一個人就像總質詢方式每一個人他都要回答還是什麼用政黨代表啦或者是就是大家組成一個質詢的質詢組的概念"},{"start":14954.947,"end":14977.285,"text":"事實上都可以經過朝野協商來去進行的,是不是?報告王委員,從立法程序上當然是這樣處理吧因為這個是立法程序上本來已經提法吧那法的處理上,因為我看兩個版本裡面都有吧"},{"start":14987.63,"end":15001.896,"text":"所以我要講的是那這種方式就是我們也充分的尊重立法院的朝野協商機制那跟賴清德未來總統他的說法也沒有什麼不一致所以請問以秘書長來看有任何毀憲亂政的問題嗎?"},{"start":15004.017,"end":15004.758,"text":"應該基本上沒有所謂的違憲、毀憲的問題吧?"},{"start":15022.071,"end":15037.573,"text":"國情報告裡面現行法已經規定也沒有大法官對針對這個做違憲的這個從來都沒有嗎沒有吧所以現行法也是這樣規定啊所以總統立法院對於總統來國情報告是有決定"},{"start":15040.775,"end":15062.083,"text":"大法官從來沒有做過解釋過嘛然後剛才先一份委員講說其實不用修法我們也可以邀請來做國情報告也確實那當然也許過去我們是不是太客氣了等等之類但是我們現在在立法院職權稀釋法裡面去定一個它強度比較強的就等於說不只是"},{"start":15064.665,"end":15072.554,"text":"總統有這個責任,立法院也有這個責任啊就立法委員,你也不要,立法院也不要怠惰啊你應該要去請總統來做國情報告啊,對不對,來做備詢啊這樣的做法其實也沒有違法憲法,也沒有毀憲亂政的問題吧"},{"start":15083.39,"end":15101.048,"text":"現在現行法就規定是可以啊。是可以的嗎?對,第1項就是規定。我們立法院自己有主動請他來。對,沒有錯。按照現行是可以,但是我們在立法院行使法裡面,把它強度變得比較強。事實上,也沒有迴旋亂振的問題嘛,對不對?"},{"start":15105.166,"end":15128.649,"text":"現在我剛才跟王議員一起報告這一個法的修啊是透過立法程序把如果這個法修完三讀的程序結束總統一公佈如果認為這個有違憲那當然有司法院來做解釋對阿就是而且如果任何有人覺得有違憲的話他們先去釋憲再說阿對不對因為就像剛才秘書長"},{"start":15130.39,"end":15145.513,"text":"我們大法官從來沒有針對這件事情有做過任何的解釋也沒有人去申請釋憲所以你不能夠說你再去申請釋憲之前或大法官做成解釋之前自己就認為自己是大法官就說這是違憲就是毀憲對不對我這樣講的這個邏輯沒有錯吧規範就是立法院本身有對於國情報告是有決定權我跟委員這樣強調"},{"start":15167.514,"end":15180.64,"text":"政政前委員林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員 徐欣盈委員"},{"start":15192.87,"end":15194.171,"text":"主席好,請秘書長"},{"start":15208.345,"end":15215.77,"text":"中華民國總統至立法院進行國情報告以及詢答模式之建議．建議來進行專題報告．所以您是對這個整個提出建議．應該不是請您來做"},{"start":15233.222,"end":15247.098,"text":"決定或是評論對不對這點對所以接下來本席也要有一些問題跟您請教首先第一個就是說有提到立法院每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告所以"},{"start":15247.919,"end":15264.466,"text":"這一個總統我們立法院聽取總統國情報告的權利是屬於法律內規或慣例我們要採每年定期或不定期應該是我們立法院可以自行來決定"},{"start":15266.041,"end":15268.363,"text":"國民大會是一連會期,我們立法院是一連兩個會期"},{"start":15289.158,"end":15316.915,"text":"是要每年固定或是不定期這個我們應該立法院可以決定嗎?我們自己可以在宣法裡面做決定那再來就是說因為在秘書長的這個建議書裡面這個報告裡面有提到就是擔心我們總統來做國情報告跟行政院長的總質詢您這邊有提到說會不會有"},{"start":15317.435,"end":15342.811,"text":"重疊或是議事安排上的困難本席在這邊也想跟您請教就是說我們其實應該也是有這個空間就是說我們可以來排啊他個先後次序由立法院這邊來決定就可以啊我們第一個可以在時間上現在我們立委是30分鐘嘛那我們是不是可以改成15分鐘每個人我們"},{"start":15344.714,"end":15352.673,"text":"總統來我們有15分鐘行政院長來我們也每位委員有15分鐘這個應該立法院也有這個權限可以決定吧"},{"start":15354.178,"end":15355.938,"text":"有的人是30分鐘是整個政黨質詢就是所有的部會首長在但有的時候只有"},{"start":15380.585,"end":15393.298,"text":"他們只有某個委員會的部會首長在所以如果總統來的話我們應該在人數上也可以用抽籤的方式只要我們立法院有共識應該也可以對不對"},{"start":15394.369,"end":15399.951,"text":"所以秘書長也認同,這些我們都有權限,我們可以來決定,立法院"},{"start":15416.165,"end":15426.274,"text":"我為什麼寫的說可能在議程安排有一些困擾是因為有一些當然情況委員怎麼修決定當然都一定要配合"},{"start":15431.479,"end":15432.8,"text":"本席想請教您,您有沒有認為應該要與時俱進?"},{"start":15449.071,"end":15468.985,"text":"現在社會不一樣了我們不是還是用過去的看法在李登輝總統時代他到國民大會他採取綜合回覆的方式所以我們現在的社會跟過去我們又更進步了所以是不是我們其實現在"},{"start":15471.848,"end":15489.768,"text":"應該採綜合詢答?還是分段詢答?還是急問急答?第一個,這個我們立法院也可以來決定吧?本人是,我剛才說共識就可以自己決定那再來就是,以現在來說,是不是急問急答才是最有效率的方式?"},{"start":15491.09,"end":15512.865,"text":"以現在的社會這樣才有效率因為我們現在總統其實現在所有的包含行政院長跟各部會首長所有的權責他都聽命於總統的啊所以總統直接等於是來立法院詢答負起這個總統有權也受立法院的監督應該也是OK的吧"},{"start":15514.677,"end":15534.177,"text":"這個要稍微做補充就詢答的方式的好或壞這有不同的概念我沒有問好壞我說以現在這個社會急問急答是不是最有效率的方式我要這樣說明因為在立法院的這個立法委員諮詢的方式一直改變很多次"},{"start":15534.958,"end":15549.122,"text":"那如果你針對以policy政策來釐清的話以前的方式一問一答也不一定比他所謂一問一答是他上來問完以後再由部會首長來答問以前是這樣處理的比如我舉個例來講30分鐘他分3問3答5分鐘委員問完"},{"start":15559.574,"end":15560.915,"text":"部委首長打五分鐘"},{"start":15590.695,"end":15612.47,"text":"這個像現在漲電價我相信不可能是行政院長或者是部長決定那一定總統要點頭所以總統有那麼高的權力那他受我們這個中華民國最高的立法機關這個立法院呢來到這裡來做國情報告同時接受這樣的詢答您認為應該是OK的吧"},{"start":15614.433,"end":15616.735,"text":"所以重大政策嗎?重大政策都可以?"},{"start":15640.566,"end":15642.827,"text":"這沒有任何問題就對了"},{"start":15661.991,"end":15683.096,"text":"好謝謝那我們接下來請邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":15693.679,"end":15694.339,"text":"邀請立法院秘書長"},{"start":15713.846,"end":15742.861,"text":"我們其實把它寫得非常的具體而且很清楚的是我們是請他就總統職權相關的國家大政方針也就是說可能他不能夠涵蓋所有所謂行政院或其他部會的相關的工作內容而是以總統職權為主這是第一個所以不會包山包海這是第一點第二個部分是我們還是一樣用德德邀請最重要是我們的條文叫做請總統依序及時答覆"},{"start":15743.661,"end":15765.906,"text":"那從不管是國民黨或民進黨我們其實都不應該因人設施因為將來誰都可能成為執政黨誰都可能成為下一次的總統所以這應該是一個國家制度的問題第二個部分是既然我們現在從選前三位總統候選都說願意來立法院備詢而且當選的耐心的總統也說願意"},{"start":15767.566,"end":15778.38,"text":"的總幹事也說尊重立法院所以其實並不是可以升高到所謂的毀禁亂政吧我想這個言過其實而且"},{"start":15780.215,"end":15800.131,"text":"國情報告我跟法院報告我最近大概委員詢問的過程當中我一直強調過國情報告立法院有決定沒錯也就是說憲法不會規定你要怎麼報告或你要怎麼詢答所以沒有所謂到違憲的問題也沒有所謂憲法爭議的問題只是有沒有憲政慣例的問題"},{"start":15805.615,"end":15831.683,"text":"以前在國民大會期間總統威權時代的總統都還會去報告包括兩位蔣總統那後來民主化以後李登輝總統也到國民大會報告反而是修憲以後的總統從來沒有到過立法院報告這是我們立法院自己職權的弱化這才是問題所以我個人的意見很簡單不管有沒有這個修法"},{"start":15832.611,"end":15857.898,"text":"我們邀請立總統來報告應該是勢在必行而且應該先開這個憲政的慣例您同意嗎委員如果有這個共識我當然同意因為憲憲法裡面在15條之後就已經本來就有所以不用爭吵所以也沒有什麼毀憲亂政的問題只是來到這邊它的內容在現在的職權行使法裡面也非常清楚"},{"start":15858.618,"end":15885.96,"text":"立法院與總統國情報告完畢後得就報告不明了處提出問題表示是可以問的只是其發言時間人數順序政黨比例由黨團協商決定其不用到修法也可以用黨團協商決定發言的人數順序政黨比例跟時間所以包括是不是急問急答在目前為止如果沒有修法的時候也可以用政黨協商來代替秘書長同意嗎"},{"start":15888.329,"end":15889.95,"text":"這其實不是憲法問題 也不是法律問題 是人要不要同意的問題"},{"start":15913.809,"end":15930.808,"text":"所以這麼簡單的事情把它弄到憲法層次還請了司法院來我覺得有點奇怪但是我覺得這件事情很簡單如果立法院要展現我們是一個民主的殿堂我們其實應該是黨各黨都有共識總統應該要到立法院做國情報告"},{"start":15931.869,"end":15947.77,"text":"至於怎麼樣的詢答我覺得就是接下來大家有智慧的用黨團協商或者是我想總統以賴清德總統他在選前的承諾我想他也不會拒絕我擔任過行政官其實我覺得行政官很想急問急答為什麼"},{"start":15948.431,"end":15976.493,"text":"因為一直挨罵沒有辦法回應反而是急問急答行政官員可以及時的來澄清來辯護我反而覺得站在被詢答的角度應該是非常樂意甚至希望急問急答的所以我也建議現在執政黨也不用這麼緊張以賴清德總統的口才我相信他也不會有任何的任何的站在下風啦我想這個部分秘書長"},{"start":15977.133,"end":15978.094,"text":"另外一個就是我想問一下秘書長有關"},{"start":15997.079,"end":16024.224,"text":"公務人員任用法裡面有關涉及國家安全跟重大利益要辦理特殊查核我們一般講忠誠查核那有一些中心的名字叫安全查核在監察院涉及到國防外交委員會的公務人員他其實現在已經納入忠誠查核的標準那立法院目前沒有所以我想秘書長在上個會期也有委員提出質詢所以您也上任了所以我覺得針對監察院"},{"start":16027.965,"end":16041.891,"text":"對國防外交的相關公務人員要進行安全查核那立法院如果涉及到國防外交的公務同仁是不是也應該比照偵查院來做公務人員任用法的特殊查核"},{"start":16042.731,"end":16064.091,"text":"我了解一下是不是有沒有必要有修法的要不要修法我必須要先了解因為現在目前公務員都是因為就是發生過很多類似大家說洩密不洩密因為立法院也有非常多的秘密會議公務員本來就有這個規定只是以前都不適用在立法院但後來監察院納入之後其實立法院也應該研議"},{"start":16065.552,"end":16066.633,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16085.303,"end":16101.428,"text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束委員質詢時有要求提供的相關資料會書面答覆的,請相關機關請速送交個別委員跟本會"},{"start":16105.687,"end":16118.661,"text":"陳俊宇、楊瓊英委員書面質詢列入記錄、刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家"},{"start":16126.732,"end":16126.812,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}