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是很了解那個新任的主委您了解嗎跟委員報告齁這個部分我不是很清楚不過呢在我們我先停一下你說你不是很清楚是當初工作交接沒有交接好是不是這個有關於這個駁回的這個部分呢不是啦"},{"start":586.727,"end":604.444,"text":"我說後續的歸納分析結果如何博回的部分32個案子博回28件我當然沒時間在這邊一件一件跟你對嘛是你們在上面說要做歸納分析嘛但我找了半天我找不到歸納分析的結果所以我請教你們"},{"start":604.864,"end":633.993,"text":"公務員報告後面的歸納分析呢我們有在進行但是因為他每個檔案都不一樣不好意思喔是持續在進行還是有做過分析過有在持續進行而且呢我們在我們在做這個會議結論的時候是2023年的6月26號嘛是現在是2024年的11月了吧是那請問這個歸納分析到目前為止有沒有任何的記錄或是任何的報告"},{"start":635.014,"end":641.073,"text":"目前還沒有到目前都還沒有那所謂的歸納分析是怎麼在做的?有開過會嗎?"},{"start":643.103,"end":644.104,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":666.856,"end":693.005,"text":"跟委員報告我們會在這個下個會期之前並同保障以法跟安慰辦法一起如果委員覺得這樣時間太長了我們會在今年底結束的時候所有的部分盡可能把它分析完不是我覺不覺得這個時間太長啦今天我們在這邊詢答的過程全部的公民都可以看啦我們的考試院"},{"start":694.005,"end":719.76,"text":"人權保障工作小組6月26號要求保訓會做歸納分析搞到2024年的11月沒有會議紀錄沒有書面資料只有抽象的在持續的歸納分析搞了一年多什麼都沒有還要再半年結果才會出來是我覺得太慢還是大家都覺得太慢"},{"start":720.62,"end":748.042,"text":"每個公民心裡有一把尺但在這邊我只希望新上任的主委因為我知道你新上任我也沒有要為難你你9月1號才上任嘛前面的人事情沒做好把鍋拐到你身上這不公平嘛但是我要拜託新任的主委加速辦理搞了一年多啊什麼都沒有啊人民會失望啊人民會失望啊"},{"start":749.406,"end":759.682,"text":"這些問題我相信在這個會期處理預算的時候都應該要具體的反映在每一個委員的預算提案上混成這樣太離譜了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長。"],["黃委員國昌：然後銓敘部的部長。"],["主席：請施部長。"],["黃委員國昌：保訓會的主委。"],["主席：好，蔡主委。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係，不一一問候。我們在2019年修正考試院組織法，大幅縮減考試委員的名額，那個時候我有參與修法，修法意旨是認為考試院必須瘦身，考試院所掌管的業務竟然要19名考試委員，這太誇張了！當然，最後我們把它刪到7到9名，實際上後來的數字大概從2021年以後就穩定了，考試委員從19名降到9名，少了10名考試委員。只不過說，我在追蹤這幾年考試院院本部的預算時，其實有陷入一些迷惘，那個迷惘在於，當初希望考試院能夠瘦身，但實際上考試院院本部的預算看起來不僅沒有減少，如果以今年來比的話，事實上還增加。增加的錢到底在哪裡？是不是真的有需要花這些錢？我想我在預算提案乃至於後面審議的時候會比較清楚表明我的看法，今天珍貴的質詢時間我希望放在我們大家所關心的議題上面。","昨天我針對考試院人事同意權的審查，請教了前考試院副院長，也是院長被提名人周弘憲。我直接請教他贊不贊成在公務人員保障法裡面去處理有關職場霸凌的事情，他在整個詢答過程當中做出了宣示，他說他如果獲得立法院同意任考試院院長，要研議修法，防止職場霸凌。針對周弘憲被提名人所做出的這個宣示，我不曉得在台上的三位是不是都同意？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，我們都同意。"],["黃委員國昌：全部都同意嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：但是剛剛秘書長也說你們進入了所謂看守的狀態，這個我尊重，但我一直在思考的是，周弘憲被提名人說他當院長以後要開始研議，因此我昨天詢問過他以後，我就一直在思考：他當上院長以前、之前當副院長的時候到底在做什麼？所以我的第一個問題是，考試院的院會有沒有針對職場霸凌規範不足這件事情做過討論？請教秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，院會裡面應該還沒有，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我想秘書長可能事情多、很忙，我帶秘書長稍微回顧一下。因為昨天詢問完周弘憲被提名人，我越想越不對，這件事情怎麼可能等到我們的勞動部出現這麼誇張的狀況才浮上水面？所以我去找了考試院的院會紀錄。考試院院會秘書長有參與，請你看一下，2021年10月14日，有考試委員問銓敘部對於職場霸凌有沒有相關的因應措施或管理制度。請問銓敘部接下來的補充報告內容是什麼？這個「陳委員錦生」應該是考試委員吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：他問有沒有相關的因應措施或管理制度，請銓敘部補充報告。但是我後來查了考試院的院會紀錄，有委員提出來要銓敘部補充報告，可是補充報告在哪裡？我找不到！顯然這件事情有浮上水面、大家要討論，也要求銓敘部要注意，那請問補充報告在哪裡？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我跟委員報告，我看陳委員的發言，應該當時是在院會的報告案裡面，前周部長在報告跟懲戒、懲處制度相關的……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道。這個院會紀錄我看過了，你沒有必要複述，現在我的問題是，請問補充報告在哪裡？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為後來在銓敘部提出的考績法修正草案裡面也有把這個概念納入，只是這個草案因為當時……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，所以你所說的相關因應措施或管理制度指的就是考績法嗎？是嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：不只，但是因為銓敘部的部分是跟考績法有關，這個案子當時在院會應該是報告案，所以有委員的發言紀錄。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請你回去查事後銓敘部所提出來的補充報告是什麼，有，就書面回復給我。"],["劉秘書長建忻：好。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，就回答「沒有」兩個字就好。不是只有2021年，到2023年考試院院會再度處理了有關職場霸凌的部分，要求保訓會要強化預防措施，請問事後保訓會強化了什麼預防措施？"],["劉秘書長建忻：在保訓會這邊，安衛辦法的部分是有一直在研修。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道，研修了10年，我昨天已經問過周弘憲了，對於研修10年的這件事情，他很遺憾也覺得非常的抱歉，但我的問題很簡單，2023年考試院院會又問了這件事情，第二次浮上院會的檯面，要求保訓會要去針對職場霸凌強化預防措施，請問強化的預防措施是什麼？"],["劉秘書長建忻：安衛辦法在今年保訓會有送到院裡面，我跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：今年8月安衛辦法有針對職場霸凌強化預防措施嗎？有嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個部分的確做得並沒有很明確，所以如昨天委員的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個就是我講的，考試院過去這幾年可能跟秘書長記憶不太一樣，在考試院院會的確針對這件事情兩次要求要處理，一次是請銓敘部，一次是請保訓會，我今天請部長跟保訓會的主委上來，不是要責怪你們，因為我知道當時你們都還沒有就任現在的職務，但是如果現在是在所謂的看守期間的話，以前該做而沒有做的事情，我們的帳就要算清楚，讓全體的國人知道，考試院過去不是沒有研議、討論過這件事，但問題是什麼？問題是即使提到了考試院院會討論，後續也毫無作為，就四個字「毫無作為」，等到周弘憲要再度被提名當考試院院長的時候才在院會宣示說他要修法、他要強化，幾年的時間過去了，而這些院會秘書長您都有參與。","還不只這樣，2023年考試院人權保障工作小組針對有關職場霸凌的事情，對於公務員提出的申訴，他的主管機關沒有處理好，他們向保訓會提出再申訴，結果保訓會在30個案件裡面駁回28件，這個數字不會錯啦！因為這個是在你們考試院及所屬部會人權保障工作小組第24次會議的內容，只是我看了這個會議紀錄，其實有一點感慨，因為我不曉得考試院對這個會議重不重視，請假的請假，找人代理的代理，搞得「離離落落」。接下來保訓會對於所謂的職場霸凌，他們說沒有明確的法律規範定義，要從個案當中去進行持續性的研究，要去進行歸納分析，建立未來審議的基準。來，請教一下秘書長，保訓會後來做了什麼樣子的歸納分析？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個我不是很了解，不過……"],["黃委員國昌：新任的主委，您了解嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這個部分我不是很清楚，不過在我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，你說你不是很清楚，是當初工作交接沒有交接好，是不是？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有關駁回的這個部分……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，我說後續的歸納分析結果如何，駁回的部分，32個案子駁回28件，我當然沒時間在這邊一件一件跟你對嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在上面說要做歸納分析，但我找了半天，找不到歸納分析的結果，所以我請教你們。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，後面的歸納分析我們有在進行，但是因為它每個態樣都不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，不好意思，是持續在進行，還是有做過、分析過？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有在持續進行，而且我們在這一個……"],["黃委員國昌：你們在做這個會議結論的時候是2023年6月26號嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在是2024年的11月了吧？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：請問這個歸納分析到目前為止有沒有任何的紀錄或是任何的報告？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：到目前都還沒有，那所謂的歸納分析是怎麼做的？有開過會嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：也沒有書面？也沒有紀錄？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，但是我們委員之間有在討論。"],["黃委員國昌：那就是抽象地持續在進行？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有在討論。"],["黃委員國昌：誰在討論？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：委員，我們也有委外。"],["黃委員國昌：但是沒有任何的會議紀錄？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前還……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有任何的文件，搞了一年多？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為那個態樣太多了，而且案件數目前到保訓會的已經有32件。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們覺得你們的持續分析還要分析多久，才會有個結果？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，我們會在下個會期之前併同保障法，跟安衛辦法一起……"],["黃委員國昌：下個會期之前，也就是說，你還要再過半年以後，才會有個歸納分析的結果？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：如果委員覺得這樣時間太長了，我們會在今年底結束的時候，盡可能把所有的部分分析完。"],["黃委員國昌：不是我覺不覺得這個時間太長，今天我們在這邊詢答的過程，全部的公民都可以看，我們的考試院人權保障工作小組6月26號要求保訓會做歸納分析，搞到2024年的11月，沒有會議紀錄，沒有書面資料，只有抽象的、再持續的歸納分析，搞了一年多，什麼都沒有，還要再半年結果才會出來，是我覺得太慢，還是大家都覺得太慢？每個公民心裡有一把尺，但在這邊，我只希望新上任的主委加速辦理，因為我知道你新上任，我也沒有要為難你。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：你9月1號才上任嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["黃委員國昌：前面的人事情沒做好，把鍋拐到你身上，這不公平嘛，但是我要拜託現任的主委加速辦理。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：搞了一年多，什麼都沒有，人民會失望！這些問題我相信在這個會期處理預算的時候，都應該要具體的反映在每個委員的預算提案上，混成這樣，太離譜了啦！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員，謝謝秘書長、兩位部長和主委。","好，接下來請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","謝龍介"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹\n基金」收支部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘\n部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分；五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310702_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}