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你說剛剛報告裡面講說今天這個預算會編列為暫時的這個是因為暫時是1000億是因為112年度的這個稅計剩餘要經過審計部審定之後才能夠事實上是不會根本就是超過"},{"start":41.874,"end":45.222,"text":"一百一十二年的稅基正餘（什麼時候審定啊（"},{"start":47.791,"end":68.858,"text":"一般都是在七月的時候審定那今年七月已經過了已經過了十個月了那因為在當時在編這個追加預算的時間是在七月之前但是你現在已經知道了啊現在已經確定所以我們在報告裡面講因為在編列這個追加預算案的時候審計部的那個還沒有審定所以我們在編列他審定的時候稅計剩餘是多少稅計剩餘這個可能多少112年度的"},{"start":73.238,"end":79.6,"text":"704470444億元稅計剩餘7044億元是12年是不是12年那請那個陳主席長112年的稅計剩餘有7000多億那不是打破歷年紀錄以前最高就4000多億而已啊"},{"start":98.243,"end":124.949,"text":"委員一百一十二年當年度是2790然後他有把歷年的累積剩餘再加上來到一百一十二年度累積剩餘是7044那因為有一些的部分就是轉帳之後到目前為止剩下一百五十八億因為也有編了一百一十四年度的預算包括這一筆一千億如果放算經濟我們到目前為止是剩下一百五十八億以上請回座"},{"start":127.19,"end":132.775,"text":"部長,所以你資料弄錯了。因為歷年的稅率剩餘有的已經花掉了以前的那個裡面也有這個"},{"start":138.51,"end":160.759,"text":"轉發因為那個在疫情期間也撥補然後另外又補貼國人一個人年幾千塊那個你都忘掉了嗎?是是我想我們剛剛沒有把這個前面講清楚是好112年稅率剩餘是2700多億當然有一些用在後面的預算有一些之前有一些規劃預算但是再加上這一千億的撥補"},{"start":162.776,"end":163.116,"text":"委員長 前幾天"},{"start":189.778,"end":198.761,"text":"你的報告裡面講到說跟韓國比起來我們的工業用電就是在調整價格之後我們是4.27元韓國是4.77元明顯還比他低了0.5元可是前幾天我怎麼看到媒體的報導台積電有高層當然沒有講誰在抱怨說這個電費太高已經失去國際競爭力"},{"start":217.088,"end":223.47,"text":"那難道我們比相同經濟條件工業生產國家的工業用地要高嗎?費用要高嗎?"},{"start":228.268,"end":247.276,"text":"臺積電所在的廠有好幾個但是沒有韓國所以日本的電力比我們低他現在在九州投資接下來會拿到確實的電價我們也在跟九州電力做了解因為日本對於不同的工業的用電的價格"},{"start":248.536,"end":259.811,"text":"其實他的那個試算表非常複雜（比台灣複雜非常的多（他到底是適用了什麼級距（有怎樣的優惠（我想我們會確定去了解（但是我要跟委員報告我想說（"},{"start":262.483,"end":284.548,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":284.548,"end":286.91,"text":"我跟委員報告這一點是這個樣子我們基本上還是會再跟國內的業者做一些比對跟查證"},{"start":309.728,"end":329.808,"text":"還是因為台積電有一些他必須要用綠能的用電所以他自己去跟人家短購短購的比較貴那個綠能短購的部分這個就跟不同的案場有很大的差距我想這不太容易比較是所以這件事情要釐清啦因為台積電是一個全國都矚目的公司他一旦這樣講的話你們不馬上出來澄清"},{"start":330.469,"end":351.374,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":351.534,"end":371.643,"text":"其實我是這樣講是得罪人啦但是一個每年賺上兆以上公司的錢賺上兆以上錢的公司他生產的地方在台電在台灣他適當的在這個生產的成本裡面我相信這個電價在他生產的成本裡面是微不足道"},{"start":372.688,"end":373.048,"text":"他們不是主動講的"},{"start":387.807,"end":406.118,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":406.218,"end":429.195,"text":"委員報告就是美國的工業電價一向都是全世界非常非常低但是因為美國是能源生產國很特別啦美國是能源生產國他的頁油鹽、天然氣將來川普當選之後他現在要恢復生產他根本就沒有什麼他的運輸成本跟台灣的能源的運輸成本是沒有辦法比較嘛沒錯我們需不需要加上去沒有錯"},{"start":429.918,"end":454.314,"text":"是啊 所以我是覺得要這些東西就是要溝通的不要到突然之間丟出一句話說這個太貴了事實上台灣的工業用電調整我們認為要符合你的成本我們不能拿人民的納稅權去補貼這些賺錢的企業如果這個產業是台灣集聚要發展然後他目前是處於比較困頓的階段那我們贊成"},{"start":455.336,"end":480.739,"text":"如果這個公司已經大賺錢了,要拿國家的稅金去補貼這樣子的大賺錢的公司,我覺得這個要慎重思考。不知道這樣看觀點你同不同意?報告委員,就是說我們其實您講的同意的,因為我們其實在電價審議會審查的時候,其實都有這些橫評考量,這跟委員報告。那目前來看,其實台電最多的累積虧損是積累在2022年跟2023年。"},{"start":486.763,"end":502.793,"text":"川普當選對你們是大利多,因為他恢復美國的業油鹽跟天然氣的生產之後,我們的國際之間的能源,就是這些所謂的石化能源,它的價格,大家的預估是它會下降,會降到比現在的這個油價還要再低。"},{"start":503.453,"end":530.718,"text":"所以這當然是利多成本的部分會減少但是我是覺得說跟社會的溝通隨時都要注意因為我們這麼大的公司很多事情要忙有的時候會疏於疏忽跟社會的溝通但是這個大家看這個資料看這個媒體會雞飛成石大家如果都是看到就這樣講沒看到台電怎麼講真的會誤會說你們是不是在賺這些這些工業大的生產公司的電錢"},{"start":532.145,"end":542.897,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實當天就有做一些澄清但確實聲量不夠我們會再加強好加油謝謝好接下來我們請耐斯堡委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時29分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早。你在剛剛報告裡面講說，今天這個預算會編列為暫時的1,000億，是因為112年度的歲計賸餘要經過審計部審定之後才能夠……事實上是不會……根本就是超過啦，112年的歲計賸餘什麼時候審定？"],["莊部長翠雲：一般都是在7月的時候審定。"],["吳委員秉叡：今年7月已經過了，已經過了4個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為當時在編這個追加預算的時間是在7月之前。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是你現在已經知道啦。"],["莊部長翠雲：現在已經確定，所以我們在報告裡面講，因為在編列這個追加預算案的時候，審計部還沒有審定，所以我們暫編列。"],["吳委員秉叡：那審定了之後，歲計賸餘是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：歲計賸餘可能……"],["吳委員秉叡：112年度的。"],["莊部長翠雲：7,044億元。"],["吳委員秉叡：歲計賸餘7,044億元？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，112年……"],["吳委員秉叡：112年……"],["莊部長翠雲：歲計賸餘可能主總這邊會更精確。"],["吳委員秉叡：那請陳主計長，112年的歲計賸餘有七千多億？那不是打破歷年紀錄？以前最高就四千多億而已啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，112年當年度是2,790億啦。"],["吳委員秉叡：2,790億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，然後他有把歷年的累計賸餘再加上來，到112年度，累計賸餘是7,044億，因為有一些的部分就是轉帳之後，到目前為止剩下158億，因為也有編列114年度的預算，包括這一筆1,000億，如果算進去，我們到目前為止是剩下158億，以上說明。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請回座。部長，你資料弄錯了，因為歷年的歲計賸餘有的已經花掉了，以前的內閣裡面也有轉發，因為在疫情期間也有撥補，然後另外也有補貼國人每人幾千塊，那個你都忘掉了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是，我想剛剛……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你不能把花掉的錢……"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛沒有把這個前面講清楚是歷年累計。"],["吳委員秉叡：112年歲計賸餘是兩千七百多億，當然有一些用在後面的預算，有一些之前規劃的預算，但是再加上這1,000億的撥補，還有剩下一百多億，是不是這樣的意思？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這一百多億當然就累積到後面。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你，請回座。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：請電力公司的曾董事長。"],["主席：好，曾文生董事長還有連次長。"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有、沒有，我請曾董事長就好。"],["主席：好，曾董事長。"],["吳委員秉叡：連次長請回座。"],["主席：次長請回座。"],["曾董事長文生：委員早安。"],["吳委員秉叡：前幾天你的報告裡面講到、經濟部的報告裡面講到說，跟韓國比起來，我們的工業用電就是在調整價格之後1度是4.27元。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：韓國是4.77元。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：很明顯還比它低了0.5元，可是前幾天我怎麼看到媒體的報導說，台積電有高層，當然它沒有講誰，在complain說電費太高已經失去國際競爭力，難道我們比相同經濟條件的工業生產國家的工業用電費用要高嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，台積電所在的廠有好幾個，但是沒有韓國。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以日本的電力比我們低囉？工業用電比我們低嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：它現在在九州投資，接下來會拿到確實的電價，我們也在跟九州電力做了解，因為日本對於不同的工業用電的價格，其實它的試算表非常複雜，比臺灣複雜非常多，它到底是適用了什麼級距、有怎樣的優惠，我想我們會去了解，但是我也要跟委員報告，一個上市公司基於他們自己對股東權益的立場，他們做了一些表達，這個我們都可以理解，但是整個電價的調整，事實上台電緩漲是從2022年、2023年都緩漲，這一段其實是有一個gap在。"],["吳委員秉叡：瞭解，你現在講的是我們補貼民生用電，因為在疫情期間我們凍漲所產生的這個gap。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在問的是另外一個問題，因為我們以前都很自豪說，我們在相同條件之下，我們的工業用電都是同級距、同樣類似的工業生產國家裡面費用最低的。"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，這一點是這個樣子，我們基本上還是會再跟國內業者做一些比對跟查證。"],["吳委員秉叡：還是因為台積電有一些必須要用綠能用電，所以它自己去跟人家躉購，躉購的比較貴？"],["曾董事長文生：綠能躉購的部分，這個就跟不同的案場有很大的差距，我想這不太容易比較。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，所以這件事情要釐清。"],["曾董事長文生：好的。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為台積電是一個全國都矚目的公司，一旦它這樣講，你們不馬上出來澄清，我覺得……"],["曾董事長文生：是，我們有出來……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是你們的澄清，我在媒體裡面沒有看到，所以我就覺得這對我們的政府、對你們台電公司造成很大的傷害。"],["曾董事長文生：是，這我們會持續加強澄清，台電聲量沒有那麼大，我們會來……"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊，你就了解台電聲量沒有那麼大，所以就要用更多元的方法、更大力地來講。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實我這樣講是得罪人，但是一個每年賺上兆以上的錢的公司，它生產的地方在臺灣，它適當地在生產成本裡面……我相信這個電價在它的生產成本裡面是微不足道，跟它的整體營運及獲利比起來是很小，但是它為什麼這麼重視？你們有沒有進一步去跟他們溝通了解？"],["曾董事長文生：我想是說明會上面的提問，他們不是主動講。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊，但是既然它這樣講了，我覺得你們台電這麼大的公司，他們那麼大的公司，你們是不是還是有管道溝通一下？"],["曾董事長文生：有。"],["吳委員秉叡：問它理由是什麼？原因是什麼？我不太相信它在別的國家的用電可以比臺灣的工業用電便宜，當然是指調整價格之後的。"],["曾董事長文生：不過跟委員報告，美國的工業電價一向都是全世界非常非常低……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是因為美國是能源生產國。"],["曾董事長文生：美國的工業電價很特別。"],["吳委員秉叡：美國是能源生產國，它的頁岩油、天然氣，川普當選之後，他現在恢復生產，根本就沒有……它的運輸成本跟臺灣的能源運輸成本是沒有辦法比較。"],["曾董事長文生：沒錯，蓄電成本是要加上去，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊，所以我是覺得這些東西就是要溝通的，不要讓他突然之間丟出一句話說這個太貴了，事實上臺灣的工業用電調整，我們認為要符合你的成本，我們不能拿人民的納稅錢去補貼這些賺錢的企業，如果這個產業是臺灣亟需要發展，然後它目前是處於比較困頓的階段，那我們贊成。如果這個公司已經大賺錢了，要拿國家的稅金去補貼這樣子大賺錢的公司，我覺得這個要慎重思考，不知道這樣的觀點，你同不同意？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，其實您講的，我們同意，因為電價在電價審議會審查的時候都有這些衡平考量，這跟委員報告，目前來看，其實台電最多的累積虧損是積累在2022年跟2023年，今年已經改善非常多了。"],["吳委員秉叡：了解，地緣政治的衝突，我跟你講，川普當選對你們是大利多，因為他恢復美國的頁岩油跟天然氣的生產之後，我們國際之間的能源，就是這些所謂的石化能源，大家預估它的價格會下降，會降到比現在的油價還要再低，所以這當然是利多，成本的部分會減少。但是我是覺得，跟社會的溝通隨時都要注意。"],["曾董事長文生：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我們這麼大的公司很多事情要忙，有的時候會疏忽跟社會的溝通，但是大家看這個資料、看媒體會積非成是，如果大家都是看到這樣講，沒看到台電怎麼講，真的會誤會說你們是不是在賺這些大的工業生產公司的電錢。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我們其實當天就有做一些澄清，但確實聲量不夠，我們會再加強。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，加油，謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝。"],["主席：接著我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}