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我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄請宣讀立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議事錄時間113年3月11日星期九十至十一時十一分十三日星期三九十一分至十二時二十一分十四日星期四九十一分至十一時五十分"},{"start":1816.841,"end":1841.146,"text":"地點紅樓101會議室出席委員陳廷飛委員等13人請假委員李玉玲委員列席委員洪孟考委員等29人列席人員113年3月11日星期一公平會主委李美季相關人員13日星期三經濟部長王美花季相關人員14日星期四經濟部長王美花季相關人員主計總出專委黃厚吉主席邱昭吉委員易營"},{"start":1842.447,"end":1860.462,"text":"113年3月11日星期一報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告、業務概況並備質詢。公平會主委李美報告號委員陳廷飛等13人提出質詢,均由公平會李主委暨相關人及其答覆。決定一、"},{"start":1861.82,"end":1872.792,"text":"登記發言委員處不在場者外,其餘經與發言完畢,詢答結束。二、委員接一份所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報。三、書面執行案未及答覆部分,請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製委員會。"},{"start":1875.091,"end":1895.029,"text":"三月十三日星期三報告事項,邀請經濟部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。經濟部長王美花報告後,委員林黛樺等19人提出質詢,均由經濟部王部長暨相後人即席答覆。決定因登記方案委員處不在場,走外取盡,方案完畢,巡查結束,而委員葉元之、劉建國首席順便質詢,列入紀錄刊登公報。"},{"start":1895.669,"end":1915.692,"text":"三、書面職權案未及答覆部分：請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本會。三月14日新疆市市長審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。經濟部長王美花、台灣中油公司董事長李順青及總經理方正仁"},{"start":1916.232,"end":1938.713,"text":"報告後委員陳婷菲等16人提出質詢均由經濟部王部長及相關人員及其答覆登記發言委員除不在場者會取禁發言完畢詢答結束委員楊瓊英所提書面質詢6日記錄刊登公報書面質詢案未及答覆部分請相關單位與中內以書面答覆並附資本會決議詢答結束令定期繼續審查散會宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1942.765,"end":1969.656,"text":"因為我們在場委員不足3人所以我們意思若暫不確定那我們繼續進行報告事項第二案及討論事項請宣讀二、邀請經濟部部長就《當前供水情勢檢討及因應措施》進行報告．並備質詢討論事項、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣自來水股份有限公司今日詢答宣讀完畢"},{"start":1971.237,"end":1981.737,"text":"好那本日議程所列報告事項第二案以及討論事項合併報告及詢答那首先我們請經濟部長王美花部長請做報告"},{"start":1994.616,"end":2003.407,"text":"主席、各位委員那經濟部就今天的兩份報告做一個簡要的說明那第一個針對當前的供水情勢的部分那確實因為全球暖化、極端的氣候也衝擊了台灣"},{"start":2012.159,"end":2013.961,"text":"所以台灣有經歷了一些的旱情。去年南部有比較大的旱情但是我們也都因應得宜有度過了。今年到目前為止各個水庫的下雨"},{"start":2030.602,"end":2048.782,"text":"確實跟平均值比起來大概只有五成可是我們仍然可以安心的用水那春耕的部分也已經在3月20完成公灌那目前都已經順利公灌完成了那在這個水的部分我們為了這樣的一個"},{"start":2051.963,"end":2056.987,"text":"防悍的準備我們一直對水庫的出水還有產業的自主節水以及跟農業部門的加強灌溉管理等等已經達成8.4億噸的節水的措施目前的水庫維持在4成到9成這樣的一個出水量"},{"start":2074.242,"end":2091.766,"text":"那高頻息呢也每秒11立方公尺那目前有順利通過枯水期的第一道的反應那在未來的氣象的展望的因應部分呢那目前已經進入到枯水期的中後段了那未來一季的雨量"},{"start":2092.707,"end":2097.051,"text":"中央氣象署是預估正常偏少後面梅雨的狀況是未來水情的關鍵我們會來審慎應應因為中北部的村耕也都已經完成了水庫下降的情形也可以趨緩經濟部也會跟農業部持續合作加強灌溉的管理優先用皮糖水面水來節約公灌"},{"start":2117.606,"end":2118.727,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":2141.161,"end":2160.17,"text":"排泄必要之外我們都會盡量保留珍貴的資源來兼顧防洪跟蓄水的強化管理那這個也是從110年的百年大旱我們非常好的一個管理措施讓桃園沒有進入到分區供水的關鍵"},{"start":2161.651,"end":2177.766,"text":"那農業的部分也會加強合作那灌區如果有降水那我們就會節約放水所以目前雖然到3月呢降雨都不是很理想但是供灌都沒有問題而且也節約了150萬噸的這樣的灌供水"},{"start":2182.441,"end":2197.308,"text":"第二、我們會打造珍珠串,強化供水的管管跟提升供水的韌性。台灣因為南北降雨不均,所以非常有需要在西部把這個供水廊道串起來。目前完成的這個版二計畫逃逐幹管,"},{"start":2201.69,"end":2223.688,"text":"台南、高雄的水源聯合運用調度都非常的有效特別是在桃竹幹管在百年大旱的時候每天可以供給22.5萬噸大概是新竹每日用水量的40%讓高科技的生產不中斷這個就是非常有名的一條水管"},{"start":2224.181,"end":2251.316,"text":"就全世界科技的一個非常好的一個例子那目前呢臺南到高雄的水已經可以聯通臺南正文南化水庫也可以在今年的6月完成串聯苗栗鯉魚潭水庫跟臺中石鋼吧預計115年完成串聯那石梅水庫到新竹聯通管已經在去年12月開工也可以打通中部的調度瓶頸的"},{"start":2252.757,"end":2265.336,"text":"臺中到雲林的區域水源的管線也開始在今年2月開工。第三個是提升備援能力製造客機造水來降低降雨的依賴。所以針對在"},{"start":2268.9,"end":2283.429,"text":"韓災的時候我們啟動了這個浮流水抗旱水井呢非常的有效果那這樣這個不僅是供水或者是當這個河川區用水濁度太高的時候呢都有效的減少這樣的一個"},{"start":2286.49,"end":2304.205,"text":"區域的供水的壓力那在接下來呢我們推動這個再生水海淡水等科技造水呢積極來進行例如我們已經合定了16座的再生水可以來供應這個台南高雄每日到12萬噸那到115年可以到28萬噸那最後可以到62萬噸"},{"start":2310.951,"end":2334.93,"text":"另外在去年已經合訂新竹台南10萬噸的海淡計畫目前在上網招標中大概在116到117年可以來供水而嘉義高雄海淡產業已經啟動了可行性規劃所以這一些的用水的管理跟科技造水都有助於台灣的這個水的供給那我們會嚴謹的做好水的穩定跟經濟的發展"},{"start":2341.363,"end":2344.268,"text":"那第二個部分關於台水的部分呢簡單報告那台水呢也會在開源節流調度備源將大原則下呢"},{"start":2352.646,"end":2375.308,"text":"來提升供水的韌性降低缺水的風險所以在多元水源開發部分配合水利署的計畫包括提供鳥嘴潭人工湖下游的自來水供給大安大甲聯通管的計畫並且創意自由水源開發區域性的小型水源如浮流水"},{"start":2376.229,"end":2392.184,"text":"未來的海淡水跟水井復抽工程等等那113年預算是40.9億元第二個加速降低漏水率那這樣的一個節流是越來越重要所以台水的降漏計畫呢在102年到103年的計畫大約可以降漏到這個"},{"start":2399.855,"end":2416.032,"text":"十二點多那今年度呢我們預計可以降落到12%那編列了八十億的預算那第二個設置調度備援管線那這個備援管線呢就發現在非常重要的地方呢"},{"start":2416.412,"end":2421.474,"text":"來趕快來規劃設置。那110年到115年會有17條的備援管線。那目前已經完成了6條。那另外也會辦理南化到豐德配水池復線、送水管線的工程、增文南化的管線工程。"},{"start":2435.739,"end":2462.797,"text":"臺中到雲林水源調度的改善工程等等113年的預算是65.48億再來是推動現代化的淨水設施我們的淨水設施很多都已經非常老舊了不符合供水的需求所以我們按照它的重要性、效益性逐年來推動淨水設施的設備的新擴建或更新改善共25處來提議"},{"start":2465.48,"end":2473.072,"text":"提升飲用水的標準以及提升這個備載的能量那第五個提升供水的普及率"},{"start":2475.899,"end":2483.702,"text":"目前無自來水區域的供水是94.91%113年編列17億餘元來讓供水可以普及到95.11%在相關預算的部分113年稅務編列334億餘元支出356億餘元虧損22億餘元較112年度增加虧損15億餘元"},{"start":2502.749,"end":2512.718,"text":"主要是動力費、外發費、利息、折舊等增加所致。113年的固定資產編列281億元,專案207億元,一般的74億元。資金來源176億元向國內銀行借款,其餘的105億元以自由資金來致應。以上做一個簡要的說明,敬請委員指教。"},{"start":2531.55,"end":2537.548,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請自來水公司李董事長請做報告"},{"start":2546.858,"end":2562.895,"text":"主席、各位委員今天答應審查本公司113年度營業預算加上有機會列席並向各位委員報告本公司未來經營策略深感榮幸近年來極端氣候市內世界各地在國內110年面臨百年大旱"},{"start":2564.677,"end":2582.831,"text":"一百一十一年的乙都基隆也面臨了一個缺水危機一百一十二年的上半年西南部幾乎降移加南地區停灌休耕臺南高雄的水情勢至三月四月就陸續進入減量供水的成人五月底又接連出現了幾個颱風的侵台"},{"start":2584.696,"end":2613.882,"text":"面對風苦極端化的一個新常態的挑戰本公司應積極面對一手抗旱應變一手防汛準備的一個困境面對台灣地區自來水經營環境匹變本公司營業目營業日益艱辛由於氣候異常和勞加劇二、管線老舊、漏水嚴重三、淨水設備改善機會龐大四、台灣生活水準提高對停遲水的一個容忍度低五、"},{"start":2614.782,"end":2635.48,"text":"推動低碳永續經營6、財務結構惡化等至經營壓力日益沉重為克服各項經營困境、強化供水、廣緩韌性、建構不切水、喝好水的一個用水環境將全力推動六大主軸的一個策略如下一、加速降低漏水力"},{"start":2636.636,"end":2648.523,"text":"把未建前供水管管系統提升供水品質及減少水資源浪費降低漏水率為本公司重大且持續性的工作克正積極辦理102年到113年的降低漏水率計劃預計113年底將漏水率降至12%以下"},{"start":2656.167,"end":2672.723,"text":"令以著手下一階段的114年到121年的降落計畫的原體檢討過去降落經驗、遭遇困難及吸取國內外成功案例亦即將執行策略調整為積極降落以維護管理兩個面向"},{"start":2675.581,"end":2689.488,"text":"並依據各區處第一特性採不同比重的策略,實際降低漏水率提升供水品質,努力達成120年將漏水率降至10%以下的目標。二、建制調度備援幹管"},{"start":2690.592,"end":2717.438,"text":"台灣早期埋設的管線已達使用連線,尤其是單一重要脆弱的維生管線一旦災變發生,將導致嚴重的停水事件,尤其近年來受到極端氣候影響各種類型的災害如旱老、鄉間地震、土石崩塌等,層出不窮在在凸顯調度邊緣管線設置的必要性本公司推動設置跨系統或區域間的邊緣管線"},{"start":2718.419,"end":2741.22,"text":"辦理備言幹管附縣工程計畫期程110年到115年,投入199.5億,亦即完成17條備言管縣。另一積極配合辦理水利署執行的珍珠串計畫,完成後能夠有效提升供水穩定及水資源的應用效力。三、推動現代化淨水廠。本公司現有各型淨水廠計有476處。"},{"start":2743.402,"end":2756.615,"text":"部分進水廠因營運多年設備逐漸老化影響原有設計的供水能力進水正常操作及符合營用水的水質標準。經篩選出及其整體改善規劃的進水廠共有25處分別為一、"},{"start":2759.416,"end":2780.163,"text":"設備及其改善有18處。二、產水水質不符合內控標準的有3處。三、系統配水力偏高的有4處。考量重要性、效益性、嚴定目標分階段來詢細推動。四、提高供水普及率。截至112年底本公司供水轄區供水普及率為94.91"},{"start":2782.785,"end":2809.014,"text":"相較其他先進國家毫不遂色為轄區男友部分地區民眾因位處偏眼、無利負擔接水費用、自有水源充沛等因素難以揮自來水作為飲用水水源。為確保無自來水住戶飲用水安全本公司111年到113年配合水利署根系推動無自來水地區供水改善計畫第4期的自來水源管金會45.36億元。"},{"start":2811.909,"end":2839.36,"text":"一計受益戶有1.26萬戶為接系四期計劃及加速解決民眾用水問題計劃主管機關水利署已著手研擬第五期計劃並於113年二月行政程序呈報行政院審核五、提升前方位服務品質隨著生活水準提高及資通訊科技發達用戶要求更高的服務品質除量主值優惠必要前提外服務品質已成為現代"},{"start":2841.491,"end":2858.422,"text":"企業經營關鍵且迫切的課題本公司積極推動提升前方位服務品質以計較高度關鍵問題及強化服務遞送機制為核心即其有效減少抱怨聲量提升服務效力經延期現階段計較的三大帶"},{"start":2859.443,"end":2885.672,"text":"改善的議題為自來水防濁二水壓水量不穩三修漏速度慢等透過具體問題描述分析發生原因嚴定解決對策與目標其能有效提升服務品質六落實淨零排放淨零排放的環保理念已是企業經營重要的一環近年氣候變遷引發降以形態異常以直接衝擊自來水的穩定供應"},{"start":2886.516,"end":2901.202,"text":"因此本公司已成立淨零轉型小組, 研定提升節能效率、發展利冷能源、推行辦公室環保、提供節能服務、加強綠色生產及支援有效利用等五項淨零策略。"},{"start":2902.362,"end":2930.496,"text":"參照環境部溫室氣體減量目標分別訂定114年及119年的排放量較94年減量10%及20%的短中期減碳目標並持續滾動檢討其在西岸2050年達到近年排放的長期目標邁進。面對未來極端氣候越演越累、旱老降水已成常態、更加凸顯穩定供水工作的克布洪"},{"start":2931.823,"end":2932.483,"text":"以上,請向各位委員報告。"},{"start":2953.453,"end":2969.194,"text":"本公司未來經營的策略請請各位委員領力支持並請不任指教接著請我們總經理來報告營業預算概況好接下來我們請台水公司李總經理做報告"},{"start":2974.168,"end":2989.283,"text":"主席、各位委員接下來由定來向大院報告本公司112年度預算執行情形及112年度營業預算內容進行委員指教與支持在112年度預算執行生產水量31.8億立方公尺為全年預算之95.64銷售水量25.23億立方公尺為全年預算95.7%"},{"start":2996.209,"end":3022.124,"text":"收支盈虧112年度總收入325.06億元總支出為367.82億元收支相比後稅前虧損42.76億元主要吸引受災生水、節水等政策影響受水收入未如預期連續兩年電價調漲及利率攀升增加動力費及利息支出三、各項工程完工加入營運制、哲學會增加接下來報告113年度失業計畫重點"},{"start":3025.305,"end":3045.423,"text":"在經營管理方面強化核心業務人力合理人員配置二、重視研究發展增進公司未來營運三、落實公司治理健全內控機制四、加強開源節流資金調度及管理五、強化專案投資計畫預算執行及品質"},{"start":3048.891,"end":3071.926,"text":"六、提升施工及維修能力提升營運績效七、落實公安環保有效降低災害損失八、建立服務導向之企業文化提升公司整體競爭力九、配合智慧政府行動方案提升衛民服務品質十、加強委外業務之管理提升公司績效"},{"start":3074.124,"end":3094.969,"text":"關於供需配額部分因應一、因應政府多元水源開發政策充裕自由水源推動備用幹管進展現代化以提升備載能量。二、推動災水智慧廣場管理強化供水調度能力。三、加強重要設施維護改善有效降低供水成本。四、積極推動降低漏水計劃。五、精進"},{"start":3097.624,"end":3121.331,"text":"緊急應變作業穩定供水服務品質六、提升售水率及供水普及率七、整合推動各項淨零排放措施達到2050年淨零排放目標邁進第三、113年度預算編列情形生產水量部分預計供水量為32.76億立方公尺較112年度減少0.49億立方公尺"},{"start":3126.291,"end":3145.115,"text":"二、銷售水量113度計劃售水量26.17立方公尺較上年度減少0.191立方公尺主要是考量再生水政策及用水需求第二大項130度預計總收入為334.28億元總支出為356.9億元收支相比預計稅前虧損22.67億元主要吸引動力費利息及折舊等費用增加"},{"start":3155.217,"end":3164.923,"text":"三、為配合經濟發展政策及用水需求持續辦理降漏及各項投資計畫。 113年度固定資產投資計畫為281.66億元,其中專案計畫207.45億元,一般建築及設備74.21億元。"},{"start":3175.422,"end":3194.025,"text":"113年度預計舉借之長期借款為524億元．與本公司將積極落實各項策略及辦理各項執行計劃。善盡提供量足自由自來水以提升國民生活水準促進經濟發展之使命。以上報告敬請委員士教育支持。謝謝。"},{"start":3198.117,"end":3209.384,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們在場人數已經有4位所以我們先來處理剛剛所宣讀的上次的會議事錄有沒有錯誤"},{"start":3212.196,"end":3237.433,"text":"好沒有誤誤我們意思錄確認接下來我們進行詢答委員詢答前我們依慣例做以上幾項的一個宣告主席台每位委員發言的時間為本委員會6分鐘必要時加2分非本委員會4分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記我們請登記第一位的林黛樺委員請做詢答有請部長"},{"start":3241.553,"end":3242.077,"text":"我們請王部長"},{"start":3248.849,"end":3274.227,"text":"委員好,部長我們國營事業的這個條新啊那什麼時候可以比照公務人員提升到4%這個從上屆一直再次的跟您追到現在了一直還是沒有下文謝謝委員那因為公務這個國營事業的預算它的程序上會比公務這個直接講日期比較晚一點那原則上我們"},{"start":3275.107,"end":3292.458,"text":"都會讓他盡量可以比照因為現在3月了是我們的國營事業確實是要黃金10年以後再合嗎還是什麼時候要合不是那因為都有相關的程序那各個公司還在算那會送給國營司來審查司長回答吧"},{"start":3293.567,"end":3321.693,"text":"對,就是現在幾家公司還在細算,因為這次的調薪我們希望有一些這個對於基層的同仁能夠有比較高一點的條幅。現在3月什麼時候能夠核定?就看看公司什麼時候會送來,到目前為止還沒有,還沒有十家公司還沒有送來。6月可以嗎?你可以去開個協調會啊,每個公司的董事長都要來啊,總經理都要來。是,我們會儘快。在現在3月、4月以前可以嗎?我們程序走完就,而且都會追溯到1月。"},{"start":3322.712,"end":3341.807,"text":"追溯到議員所以確定是提升到4%嗎?就是調薪4%?我們會參照那績效獎金什麼時候核定?績效獎金就跟調薪一樣又有涉及到政策因素我們這個月底會開審議會審議會完以後我們就會去進行相關的程序"},{"start":3342.844,"end":3370.779,"text":"那今天進入到我們水公司的質詢那有水當時無水之苦本席從漏水的房子來看臺水的虧損好臺水的虧損的原因以及現在要維修7萬6千公里的管線臺水目前的狀況自負盈虧而且是舉在修漏水在極端氣候下水資源更新增貴本席有些具體的建議好臺水虧損的原因本席爬梳的結果有4個"},{"start":3373.922,"end":3386.956,"text":"全台灣有兩個水公司一個是北水處臺北市政府所轄一個是我們經濟部所轄好那這個臺北市政府人口密集而且他水費呢徵收的也相對高哦"},{"start":3387.957,"end":3412.994,"text":"但是也就是說當位服務的人口也較多了但是台水不一樣他不管偏鄉任何偏鄉他都得提供一定要的一個水管到那個地方所以台水現在是超過7萬6千公里的自來水管路需要維護跟更新第二個是水價長期一國兩制水費的遊戲規則是偏利於"},{"start":3417.637,"end":3418.678,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":3442.498,"end":3451.118,"text":"好那這個包括第三個為什麼虧損成本上漲利息沉重這76000公里的自來水管是有折舊的"},{"start":3452.729,"end":3480.174,"text":"幹旱的時候減工自來水也要提供補償電力成本上漲連台水本身都是用電大戶現在是負債利息沉重第四個他現在怎麼的來做這個水管了自行舉債籌措經費所以我講到這邊啊我都認為台水很棒等一下我這些棒啊不是我對他們有什麼我就數據會說話我再提供一些數據"},{"start":3481.752,"end":3507.821,"text":"好7萬6千管線的維護成本是相當我們看右邊這個圖這個是我從日本水道技術研究中心的網站去擷取下來的世界各國主要城市的漏水率哇這個圖我一看我嚇一跳台水這麼棒啊他漏水率百分現在是到12.54喔他竟然排全球算是漏水率低的國家他排名第6名"},{"start":3510.282,"end":3536.543,"text":"第一名河南第二名丹麥漏水率7日本跟我們相近他漏水率7.65葡萄牙、里斯本、法國除了日本跟我們地形相近之外其他都是城市型的國家然後呢這76000公里是什麼概念就是我們地球的圓周繞一圈以次到這樣繞一圈不是次到的直徑喔是次到這樣繞一圈"},{"start":3539.084,"end":3564.234,"text":"是多長?4萬公里,我們7萬6千公里我們養護的管線有繞地球次到兩圈了所以還能夠維持漏水力達前段班我真的覺得台水了不起再來但是這樣的穩定供水民眾用水無虞難道他們沒付出成本嗎?"},{"start":3565.314,"end":3579.566,"text":"這個在爬樹的結果全台灣的台灣水醫生才幾位80位這樣的一個水醫生對所有大大小小的管線上山下海竟然才80位每天要走3萬公里"},{"start":3580.899,"end":3605.037,"text":"然後我們任何地下水管它破的這個破損它一定是第一個搶到最前線這個如果再不修再到我們地方馬上就是民怨四起可是台水都中在第一線好再來它自負盈虧從這10年來102年到113年我們從降漏水率達20幾%我的印象中都有達23%到現在降到12點多%"},{"start":3606.858,"end":3612.866,"text":"降了7.55這什麼概念呢每年降漏水是超過一個石門水庫2.5億噸那到底這個2.5億噸的成本是多少呢我這個右下角我就爬書出來這個石門水庫到底造價多少"},{"start":3622.259,"end":3627.744,"text":"民國7月1964年造價32億,32億是當時全國1964年的全國GDP1000億的幾%?3%如果照現在我就掉2022年的全國GDP的3%是多少?600億所以照這個算石門水庫每年我們台水公司的貢獻"},{"start":3646.201,"end":3662.858,"text":"每年這個漏水利的降降這個減少漏水利節省的10門水庫一座是減少了每年600億的這個功勞但是呢沒有調整水價自行舉債還有這樣的績效好那他舉債多少啊"},{"start":3663.539,"end":3677.308,"text":"累計1044.25億我真不曉得還有民間公司這個怎麼還活得下去臺電一年虧損3億我們這個行政院支持經濟部支持臺電臺中油呢一年虧損2000億我們經濟部呢也跟行政院講這要支持我不知道臺水累計虧損到1044.25億他每年繼續虧損40億平均"},{"start":3693.679,"end":3718.682,"text":"我不曉得他還能撐多久一直都得不到我們部長跟行政院的支持極端氣候下水資源更新珍貴了我也詢問過中央氣象署今年的降雨都還是正常偏少春夏季都還是有可能乾旱的也可以說是乾旱這一年的必然了"},{"start":3719.603,"end":3735.697,"text":"所以呢我們對於水資源的調控上當然要特別注意民生自來用水當中水公司剛才我有注意聽到董事長的報告他說我們希望朝向降漏率漏水率能夠達到10%"},{"start":3737.699,"end":3752.324,"text":"好 如果這樣的話我再降兩趴我每年可以再省下每年喔再省下一個湖山水庫造價是兩百億五千萬噸的水量所以啊如果能夠再給他錢給他資源"},{"start":3754.705,"end":3780.642,"text":"欸我一年就省了兩百億欸要不然我們現在不可能再造水庫了浮流水沒有錯你們很這個經濟部我要給他鼓勵多元水源的這個採取好這個你們是有盡心盡力好你說到浮流水水量多他就多水量少他就沒有好所以像今年的浮流水是可以預測是可以是少的好那這個經濟部呢你要重視這個管線漏水的問題"},{"start":3781.843,"end":3808.322,"text":"好 那我這邊具體建議第一個 比照台北自來水事業處研議每個月的用水一千噸以上的用水大幅新增收費的急劇以彰顯用水正義第二個呢 在維護民生物價的穩定之下經濟部應該積極主動的向行政院爭取給予台水補助以平衡虧損要補助它多少本期建議兩年"},{"start":3809.483,"end":3814.565,"text":"一年700億趕快把虧損把它平息掉累計不是虧損是累計舉債1440億或者你不補助他你不用行政的力量去補助他他只有一支的債累計虧損每年還繼續虧40億"},{"start":3827.609,"end":3843.495,"text":"在開發財源節流當中我們是不利的連用水大戶你都不課了台北自來水公司都課你為什麼台水不課用水大戶1000度以上你為什麼要放任他然後再繼續的讓台水虧損"},{"start":3845.475,"end":3859.541,"text":"然後第三個由中央補助台水公司加速進行老舊管線汰換再降低百分之二的漏水率為目標你的前瞻計畫有沒有認為如果漏水率認為是你的經濟部目標你的前瞻計畫第5期你有沒有納入呢"},{"start":3861.152,"end":3862.734,"text":"好 這個請回應 簡單回應本席認為耗水率是無效的"},{"start":3882.975,"end":3892.2,"text":"所以你就直接就用水刀直接把它定級去比較快不要在那邊躲躲閃閃在想一些在想一些技巧結果你還是課不到或課的量少"},{"start":3895.103,"end":3898.506,"text":"是,是,謝謝委員講,我們才提供等一下,你們台水累計舉債的部分分兩年你要不要努力分兩年幫他的累計舉債1044億應該要給予補助啊台電都可以做,中油可以做為什麼台水不能做?這個相關他是舉債不是虧損啦所以他繼續讓他虧,他虧損是拿到董事長的口袋嗎?我只是跟委員講還是說他是"},{"start":3917.725,"end":3929.471,"text":"真的實施到我們所有的公共建設不管你調度管線你像從台南到我們高雄現在你的徵維管線這也是他們自己去處理啊都是舉債啊舉債是在做公共建設欸所以你不覺得你應該積極的跟行政院爭取來評審這樣的一個累積虧損嗎會會我會來評審好謝謝這是大家的心聲一起加油謝謝"},{"start":3946.26,"end":3946.56,"text":"陳婷菲委員"},{"start":3971.945,"end":3978.897,"text":"部長,我想先跟你探討三個問題。第一個問題是,全國還有多少無自來水的地區?"},{"start":3984.418,"end":4010.29,"text":"各縣市都有。對啊。全國大概是40萬戶左右。40萬戶。對。全國都有嘛。對。然後總共是40萬戶嘛。對。好。那台南地區有多少戶?好。將近7000戶左右。將近7000戶。我們在這一次前瞻預算所謂的這個水環境然後去cover了有一些。對。那還有7000戶。對。直轄市欸六都欸直轄市台南還有7000戶。"},{"start":4014.213,"end":4039.975,"text":"這個是我們在努力的目標,在台南市的負數是在六都裡面是相對比較少的。比較少的。對,不過還有一些偏向,包括我們。所以六都相對比較少,所以其他五都還很多,五自來水。所以你看,大家可能很難想像說,哇,怎麼可能,台灣尤其還是六都,還有這麼多五自來水。"},{"start":4041.24,"end":4050.702,"text":"很難想像但是只有我們自己知道真的很多而且我們還看到說有很多老舊管線對不對"},{"start":4052.805,"end":4053.846,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":4053.846,"end":4072.919,"text":"那位已經都三四十年了,我也很感謝啦在這一次在我自己的選區其實做了很多啦就是這個太舊換新的部分為什麼要太舊換新?因為你知道那個水壓馬達一顆比一顆大越水沒的地方越大顆還要抽完的時候我前面整個水都會被抽掉"},{"start":4081.707,"end":4109.197,"text":"所以為什麼要做太舊繁星因為不得不做那個水管水管的直徑真的過去40年前到現在差太多了以前用護手也沒那麼多現在用護手很多所以一個接一個一個接一個所以我們的太舊繁星我要問有趣我不要問專家專家放那個手裡很恐怖台南"},{"start":4110.461,"end":4118.954,"text":"台南這個老舊管線那超過三、四十年有多少老舊管線你有去統計過嗎?"},{"start":4128.162,"end":4145.838,"text":"我們台南地區液磷的管線大概54%左右這個液磷就是說正常的塑膠管所謂54%是什麼意思我台南地區的總管線長度有54%是是三四十年的液磷是一般是20年塑膠管20年就液磷"},{"start":4147.884,"end":4149.025,"text":"二十年還要易領的有多少?"},{"start":4171.784,"end":4173.425,"text":"安南區 還是比較屬於"},{"start":4196.435,"end":4221.73,"text":"縣市合併之後比較市區的喔那如果在我們原台南縣的地方我相信那個管縣是一零還要一零還要一零啊所以我覺得還是要統計一下因為這關係到我們的生活品質然後還會牽扯到管縣是不是會漏水的問題其中"},{"start":4223.055,"end":4252.131,"text":"整個是串在一起的你做議領了3、4、10年以他的水供沒漏水不可能嘛所以我覺得我們要做一個總盤檢台南做總盤檢所以這個部分再麻煩一下然後我們現在其實期待都是我們的前瞻其實我們前瞻真的幫我們的這個水環境做了很多啦"},{"start":4253.399,"end":4255.139,"text":"所以為什麼要特別提到這個?"},{"start":4255.139,"end":4273.204,"text":"有時間要搞啊?啊後面要怎麼辦?還這麼多?還這麼多怎麼辦?報告委員,部長已經指示我們研擬新的計畫,這個新的計畫已經提出來,然後已經送到院裡面去了。已經送到院裡面?獨立的計畫?"},{"start":4275.21,"end":4299.916,"text":"無自來水的改善 獨立的計劃無自來水獨立的改善計劃不再是併到誰裡面是一個無自來水獨立的計劃那我覺得我們的一些盤整的資料就要非常的齊全這個就要麻煩一下如果你這些資料沒有齊全你根本不知道我到底要從哪邊先下手"},{"start":4301.584,"end":4327.574,"text":"那常常這就牽扯到大家都會說主來水的老水的問題主來水供的老水的問題所以我覺得這個是一定要做而且必要做肯定要優先來做這關係到我們的水環境跟我們的生活品質那再來就是馬上馬上馬上要進入我們的枯水期"},{"start":4329.298,"end":4355.709,"text":"好到知道這段時間還有稍微好呢可是如果未來怎麼樣不知道最好是還是都有持續啦持續可以落在我們的嘴口這是我們大家期待可是總是沒有辦法那麼如意啊好我們要講如果枯水的狀況再發生一次我們準備好了嗎準備好了"},{"start":4357.54,"end":4381.132,"text":"大陸人的水是越來越多,稍微感覺從南科到所有工業區其實它的用水量是越來越多而且我們南科也不斷的擴廠然後也不斷的擴大我們的基地所以在這個部分我們要怎麼樣做調節才能避免否則你現在農業都休耕啊"},{"start":4382.523,"end":4405.045,"text":"接下來其實已經不是很正常的狀態報告委員那個區域的珍珠串計畫在台南的地方曾文跟南化今年6月之前會完成再生水的部分也在如計畫進度在做那產業的用水絕對不會排擠到我們農民的用水那今年這個水情雖然說氣象局預報是正常偏低"},{"start":4405.605,"end":4409.208,"text":"處長,我們當然都希望我們的所謂水的部分不會影響到我們的民生農業,一定是這樣,可是每一次只要缺水"},{"start":4428.586,"end":4449.56,"text":"農業部就跟你講我要開始然後把整個休耕期延長然後要怎麼做調解大家一定會覺得說怎麼又是這個樣子所以我不知道是剛剛好啦要不然怎麼每一次你們講不會影響可是事實上我們在政策當中都要做配套所以"},{"start":4450.629,"end":4473.4,"text":"一定是會影響 不會不影響可是我們要怎麼未雨綢繆剛剛我們署長有講了就是說我們現在白河、真雲這個相關的一些工程都會陸續完工 對不對陸續完工之後我們就可以把整個水庫的狀態比較好"},{"start":4476.448,"end":4490.798,"text":"比較好我也只能說比較好啦因為這預計的狀況實在很難去評估啦好那這個部分我們能夠掌握多少白河、真雲、烏山頭、南化、水庫整個清淤的效果我們可以掌握多少"},{"start":4493.249,"end":4520.245,"text":"我提供一個數據在110年之前曾文水庫一年清淤超過60萬現在我們一年清淤超過300萬吨300萬立方的淤泥基本上我們對淤泥清淤是加大力度特別是在這幾年不管是台南的水庫曾文跟白河其他全國各地也是如此實施除此之外曾文水庫也是全國第一個完成防疫隧道的水庫"},{"start":4521.485,"end":4547.666,"text":"所以我們希望這些工程我們花了重要的重要工程經費下去我們就希望真的能夠達到我們預期的然後還有我們的再生水這再生水清楚就是給江亞空營的啦南科啦好他們在這個整個擴產完之後希望能夠趕快加入我們的整個提升台南地區供水的穩定"},{"start":4548.928,"end":4569.088,"text":"這個很重要這個要盡快完成尤其我們現在陸續都希望是113年底的今年年底啦所以在今年是搭不上嘛因為他們都是年底才會完工啦所以在這一個我要講的是今年今年變成是我們一個很關鍵的"},{"start":4570.991,"end":4593.056,"text":"在這些工程都還沒有到達能夠加入這個供水穩定的一個系統裡面我們要怎麼讓它讓人民安心這個就很重要所以拜託工程做了再生水也加入了那麼在這一段緩衝期我們怎麼讓人民安心再拜託辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":4600.878,"end":4620.456,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請謝依鳳委員請做詢談謝謝主席我想要請王部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":4627.047,"end":4638.855,"text":"王部長不好意思我想要請教一下聽說我們就是4月開始喔電價就要大幅度的調漲喔那我們上次也討論過就是說電價對於就是"},{"start":4641.136,"end":4642.077,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4672.392,"end":4693.297,"text":"謝謝委員那相關的這個電價審議委員會明天會召開那在這個相關的方案裡面一定都會對盡量來穩定物價這個做很重要的一個考量的因素因為你上次說是細緻調整是是什麼樣子的細緻調整到底行政院"},{"start":4693.957,"end":4716.343,"text":"是不是會針對所謂的龍魚教育大眾運輸或者是330度以下的民生用電來動長那你目前是否有這樣的討論因為在過往確實兩次也都已經有一些的細緻調整的方案那我們會提出相關的方案出來到審議會去討論那至於"},{"start":4722.504,"end":4750.675,"text":"委員提的這個具體的個案的情形省議會那邊都會去做相關的討論我提的這應該不是個案是同案因為就是對於對就是委員提到的農民、教育、大眾運輸還有330度以下的民生用電就是動漲跟緩漲這個部分要降低怎麼樣子降低我們就是民生用的物價的上漲那畢竟現在大家在外食族或者是"},{"start":4751.055,"end":4761.757,"text":"大家討論到的就是大眾運輸高鐵等等如果在搭乘的時候因為電價上漲會導致於就是說這些票價就是經營的成本都會上漲嗎 對不對這個部分確實在審議會裡面呢因為前兩次都有這樣逐一在討論所以審議會應該也都會去做相關討論"},{"start":4776.241,"end":4796.003,"text":"我在院會的時候也有請教過部長就是關於發電結構的問題那其實我們知道我們的火力的發電就是燃氣燃煤的占比其實都是高達八成一左右"},{"start":4796.724,"end":4818.739,"text":"那在這麼高的情況下其實我們現在我們在講的全球的低碳的能源就是再生能源加上核能那全球的占比是39.6%可是我們台灣的目前的占比只有就是再生能源加上核能我看112年的占比是15.8%"},{"start":4821.841,"end":4831.003,"text":"所以在這樣子我們都是高碳排的情況下我們怎麼樣子因應全球減碳的這樣子低碳排能源的趨勢"},{"start":4833.014,"end":4836.577,"text":"所以我們在有幾個措施第一個雖然燃氣跟燃煤占比八成多但是確實燃氣跟燃煤比起來燃氣的碳排是燃煤的一半所以才會政府的策略才會第一個增加燃氣來降低燃煤那第二個確實再生能源這個部分我們也需要加緊腳步來進行"},{"start":4856.293,"end":4860.815,"text":"讓這個更多的相關的再生能源那現在成熟的也好包括未來這個相關的地熱還有氫能什麼也確實都是需要加進來發展地熱好像就是發展一直沒有很沒辦法成為比較穩定的地熱是積載但是他量體目前還不是很大那他確實要比較長的時間"},{"start":4879.741,"end":4890.147,"text":"地熱目前好像沒有辦法成為我們比較穩定供電的這樣子。他是機載電力,但是他只是量體,目前還比較小。有辦法發展成很大嗎?地熱有辦法發展超過20%嗎?"},{"start":4896.63,"end":4920.637,"text":"20%是不可能啦 對啊應該沒有辦法超過這樣子的量體吧 對不對所以在我們要怎麼樣子改變這個發電結構因為畢竟如果都是藉由火力就是藉由火力燃氣或者是燃煤在這一次的就是說無二戰爭也好對於能源高度依賴的這個發電結構會造成說就是這一次台電嚴重虧損的問題嗎"},{"start":4927.499,"end":4947.025,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法改變就是依賴這種再生能源的話那有可能未來我們還是如果遇到這樣子能源的價格長期的高漲高居不下的時候我們台電還是面臨虧損是不是?"},{"start":4950.366,"end":4977.237,"text":"對相關的這個部分像惡霧戰爭這樣確實這一陣子以來是造成一個能源大幅的變動那不是只有台灣全世界也都很難避免是問題是我們的發電結構如果就是高度依賴能源的時候就是會發生這樣子的問題那台電未來如果還是高度依賴能源的情況下他還是沒有辦法就是說他明年還是會"},{"start":4978.157,"end":4992.988,"text":"有可能就是還是繼續面臨這樣虧損的問題啊是不是所以有很多個面向來討論這個問題那目前我們第一個要趕快增加再生能源的占比讓這個這個再生能源增加"},{"start":4993.448,"end":5015.483,"text":"第二個呢這個再生能源未來其實都不再像離岸風電都是直接賣給企業不是用台電來賺購那這個也可以減少台電這樣的一個成本那也就是說前端政府一定要來支持再生能源建設那成熟了以後已經就直接由企業自己來購買這個相關的再生能源那確實企業也是有需要這樣的RE100的再生能源"},{"start":5020.866,"end":5024.809,"text":"對,可是R100是對於外銷的產業嗎?"},{"start":5024.809,"end":5042.042,"text":"對不對我們台灣的製造業其實百分之八、九十都是外銷所以對他們需要這個R100但是都是外銷他也不一定需要就是有每一個產業都需要符合R100嗎?但是目前的要求我們的這些比較重要的產業目前R100的要求都在加緊那個"},{"start":5046.825,"end":5070.922,"text":"站比要一直提高所以他們也一直跟我們反映再生能源還是要加快來進行我最後還想要請教部長就是現在台積電他要設廠再加一我想請問你就是他現在用的水是從哪一個水庫那會不會影響到我們未來的就是說民生的用水"},{"start":5072.023,"end":5075.064,"text":"第一個,我們一定不會去影響民生用水。第二個,它在嘉義設封裝廠,這個水源的配置一定都有事先的規劃,所以嘉義縣會設再生水廠。"},{"start":5089.01,"end":5092.932,"text":"台積電自己也會設再生水廠那它的再生水廠夠嗎?長期來講這兩個的再生水廠因為再生水廠現在設大概也要4、5年的時間所以這個設了以後基本上就可以他們由這個再生水來供主要的水事實上嘉義的水我們本來西部走廊的這個水就是讓它串起來可以互相的調度"},{"start":5118.146,"end":5135.494,"text":"另外就是說他絕對不要去排擠到相關的民生跟農業用水。會影響到我們彰化的用水嗎?彰化用水我們現在那個無心鳥嘴潭的水已經在增加給彰化的這個用水。對,因為有些我們也是用到那個湖山水庫的水嘛。"},{"start":5135.794,"end":5159.93,"text":"是,就大家都聯合調度使用那也增加水源、降低漏水率等等那我覺得是串聯是最重要的所以我們沿路從北一直串到中、中再串到南這樣的挪移來因應台灣北部水漁降得多但是用得少那可以讓台灣更多的調度所以調度對我們來說是非常重要的工程好,謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":5168.612,"end":5170.213,"text":"好接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答我們再請王部長"},{"start":5203.808,"end":5224.302,"text":"今天算是一個非常關鍵的時刻就是物價到底會不會漲會漲多少那人民心中都有一把尺現在大家都張大眼睛在看包括各個部會包括你在內這個每一個部會到底他是讓物價可以平穩的捍衛者"},{"start":5225.388,"end":5247.987,"text":"還是他是一個加害者今天我看到新聞我走一下交通部長說現在台鐵跟公路局竟然已經準備要漲價了台鐵跟公路局會不會變成是帶動這一波物價上漲的這個元兇那經濟部的角色又是怎樣呢財政部長"},{"start":5249.619,"end":5260.012,"text":"我們很清楚看到他是在右邊的這個捍衛者財政部長他講包括黃小玉一些大眾的這個物資他們的營業稅、貨物稅跟關稅"},{"start":5265.583,"end":5293.502,"text":"三個月減免96他從100年開始他已經採取這個措施他減稅減了多少853億所以人民就會看會發現說財政部是站在穩定物價的一個捍衛者那交通部現在變成是捍衛者是加害者對交通部長對台鐵對公路局就是一個很大的一個考驗了他如果真的是漲價了整個物價就上去電價上漲的同時整個物價也上去了那我要問部長"},{"start":5295.458,"end":5300.086,"text":"你認為經濟部在這次的這個物價漲不漲?經濟部特別是經濟部的部長你是捍衛者還是加害者?"},{"start":5306.286,"end":5310.907,"text":"我想過去兩三年台電就是吸收了非常多的成本那讓國內的這個物價的穩定跟國際比起來其實是名列前茅的那也就是因為這樣造成台電比較大的這個虧損那我們當然也謝謝行政院給我們支持但是因為這個目前的虧損讓台電的財務"},{"start":5330.753,"end":5332.975,"text":"已經有一些沒有辦法運轉了所以這個是為什麼我們一方面來申請行政院的撥補另外一方面來做適度的調整調整的時候我們一定會把這個穩定的物價"},{"start":5347.269,"end":5369.824,"text":"讓這個民生的這個照顧民生這個部分一定都是我們重要的一個考量因素人民看到是肯定的可是現在一方面人民在看你漲電價的同時你有沒有在穩定物價做的努力等一下會很具體至少你是可以做兩件事情等一下會跟討論可是現在比較麻煩的物價看起來一直在往上走對不對"},{"start":5371.145,"end":5399.526,"text":"這幾天禮拜年最熱門的新聞是什麼?禮拜一店韓國瑜吃的水煎包一顆多少錢?我一定會追這新聞嗎?我想這個民生用店家的這個定價每一家都略有不同啦,是。海燕長說水煎包一顆已經到了28塊,這當然是比較貴的。阿早上有人去問廚藝店說一顆水煎包大約多少錢?當然它大小會不一樣啦。"},{"start":5400.816,"end":5425.539,"text":"副總知道水煎包現在價格大概多少嗎?確實每一家都不太一樣。都不一樣齁?主計一定說15到20顆。那為什麼問你這個事情?連個水煎包都已經到15到20。然後如果一般的人大概一餐大概吃掉幾顆?少的話3顆對不對?多的話可能也要5顆啊,再加個湯。一兩百塊就用掉了。"},{"start":5426.684,"end":5455.523,"text":"然後現在的便當在台北市一個便當至少大概都120、130了連我回來的咖哩連咖哩的便當已經都120、130如果這一次的物價沒有穩定住我會再強調就跟那個變而新的女朋友就回不來了所以部長你責任重大好不好一定要在穩定物價這一塊要多注意好不好是好那具體的提兩個很重要的建議是你馬上可以做的阿我第一"},{"start":5456.013,"end":5480.144,"text":"行政院就要開穩定物價小組會議對不對?院裡面會開?後天,後天行政院就要開穩定物價的小組會議。後天禮拜六,應該是。是要開還是拜五?現在知道?這兩天就要開嘛。那財政部長已經講了,他在,下一張,剛剛那一張。財政部長已經講了,包括黃曉益"},{"start":5481.875,"end":5495.796,"text":"這一種比較大宗的物資,它只要降稅或減稅有助於減反廠商成本,讓物價可以穩定。財政部長應供,他是支持的。那有一個事情是經濟部部長可以做的。"},{"start":5498.551,"end":5517.872,"text":"統裝瓦斯統裝瓦斯對整個物價影響會非常的大特別是小吃店統裝瓦斯一漲小吃店上來整個物價就上來你能不能允諾至少在行政院的穩定物價小組你去爭取你去極力的爭取幫人民爭取站在人民這邊統裝瓦斯不要漲可以嗎"},{"start":5519.071,"end":5520.914,"text":"統裝瓦斯不是在物價小組討論其實是屬於我們中有的機制這個統裝瓦斯我們確實一定會優於考量短期不會漲"},{"start":5534.89,"end":5554.463,"text":"短期不會這樣對不對那你要很明確的跟行政院表達清楚好不好行政院如果在整個物價的這個討論裡面你看人家財政部長都已經這麼明確講了所以我剛剛講現在財政部長跟財政部是整個穩定物價的捍衛者我期待經濟部長至少在統裝瓦斯這邊也是捍衛者好不好你剛剛有贏喔至少短時間不會這樣"},{"start":5564.99,"end":5582.327,"text":"至少在年底不要漲我跟委員報告齁因為統川老師目前我們賣的大概8塊多可是我們的成本其實是十幾塊那目前我們其實就是在吸收不是我只是跟委員說所以短期內我們一定會統川老師不漲短期保證不會漲"},{"start":5584.629,"end":5608.426,"text":"好不好部長要很明確喔現在是加害者跟捍衛者是一線之交我們不能這樣講啦因為這個台電也是受害者阿對有有所以台電我們爭取是使你們去爭取該有的補助嘛對不對可是你站在人民的立場統川瓦斯真的影響是很大的好不好你看已經隱落嘛對不對短時間一定不會漲好不好OK第二個可能是更重要的"},{"start":5610.307,"end":5635.126,"text":"真正正式的這個漲價要反映真正的使用者其實這邊部長你看一下現在50度以上的用電的這個超大戶他上面如果急劇沒有再拉上去沒有反映該用的這個用電的這個漲幅先負責去補在你剛才說的嘛你去行政院你去租屋子貼回來錢"},{"start":5636.621,"end":5645.398,"text":"去補他的錢 對不對第二個330度以下的民生用電這些人漲了價這些錢還是去補了這個用電的超大戶這樣公平嗎?"},{"start":5647.059,"end":5666.08,"text":"沒說明對不對所以你們很非常具體的明天的這個會議你至少送個資料進去或者很明確的表達這次如果要漲電價應該是50億度以上用電的這個超大戶該漲好漲滿該漲好漲滿不要再從一般的民生用電在人民身上在暴斃可不可以嗎"},{"start":5667.021,"end":5691.261,"text":"我們這個相關的部分我們確實會讓這個用電大戶承擔比較多的責任然後對這個民生還有物價部分會優於考量這個是我們的大方向所以用電的超大戶長好長滿這個是確定的可是在民生用電這一塊你能不能承諾盡量在330度以下的民生用電不要漲"},{"start":5694.666,"end":5717.748,"text":"相關的因素審議委員會都會去討論不一定我看所有的公報還有到目前為止所有執行過的立法委員不管是民眾黨的不管是國民黨跟民進黨連民進黨喔都是認為330度以下盡量不要漲我們說你強力的後盾啊你要站在人民這一邊啊你們去力爭至少330度以下的民生空間不要漲"},{"start":5719.256,"end":5745.449,"text":"謝謝委員意見那因為整個部分大原則都有那會到審議會那邊去做討論會詳細討論我今天談的是你的歷史定位還有就是在這一次裡面整個電價漲完之後的整個物價你的角色我很期待我今天一直在強調你要站在人民這一邊是所以一方面力爭要力爭到底統裝瓦斯不要漲第二個站在人民這一邊力爭到底330度以下的民生用電不要漲"},{"start":5747.997,"end":5760.55,"text":"謝謝我們的意見。我們會參考。是。好。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。謝謝。給張委員拍拍手。準時。謝謝。來,敬禮。謝謝。接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答。謝謝。"},{"start":5782.514,"end":5792.997,"text":"主席、各位委員,請部長。我們請部長。委員好,是。部長好。"},{"start":5798.817,"end":5819.011,"text":"好,這個台灣這個水庫啊這個因為降雨量在這幾年都不是豐沛所以我們的這個各水庫的一個都是有很多的問題那我們現在就是說在這樣的一個情況之下這個我們周邊都是海"},{"start":5824.639,"end":5826.58,"text":"我看你們的報告,就是對於這個海的部分,淡海計畫才剛開始。"},{"start":5846.149,"end":5869.228,"text":"是有怎麼樣的一個...兩個已經在招標中了對啊我知道在...你們有沒有去了解國外的狀況?非常多跟委員報告我們充分的了解然後我們也同仁包括去國外限地參訪然後也跟...包括國內...國外的廠商也在台灣我們也是跟他們充分交換意見好 這個我看這個..."},{"start":5872.496,"end":5892.461,"text":"對於環境的影響或是怎麼樣各方面如果你們有什麼相關的資料也可以提供沒有問題好我們看今天的自來水公司的報告裡面特別提到這個普及率自來水供水普及率前台灣是94.91"},{"start":5895.663,"end":5920.726,"text":"但是就原住民第7或者是花東第7的普及率你們有相關的資料嗎?數字說明一下報告委我們水公司都有統計在提供好是好我們就先看花蓮台東兩線的自來水系統的辦理情形那112年"},{"start":5922.843,"end":5943.813,"text":"除了這個無自來水的計畫之外還有用這個花東基金的一個經費目前都在進行的當中花蓮跟台東都在施工中這個部分要請這個水利署還有自來水公司那個積極的來辦理我也開過"},{"start":5947.28,"end":5955.463,"text":"協調會來去解決這個跟縣政府還有鄉公所還有工廠管理機關所面臨的問題我也開過協調會那等一下我也會提出來"},{"start":5959.827,"end":5977.639,"text":"那這個但是還有好幾個地方花蓮縣就有這個受封、復禮、瑞穗、義禮臺東有關山還有臺東市都還沒有經費還要等到這個第5期"},{"start":5978.683,"end":6006.379,"text":"第5期是114開始嗎?對現在那個114的年度的計畫有目前在提報?還沒提報嗎?正在提報的程序之中那我們114年之後的這個計畫我們經過跟部長報告我們會從過去的一年差不多15億左右提升到差不多將近22億左右的一個度年。好 謝謝齁 這個一定要增加齁"},{"start":6007.754,"end":6034.309,"text":"那這個0918地震的部分實際受災的地區目前這個因為相關的這些民意各方面的作業比較需要花比較多的時間所以還在確認這個相關的用戶的清澈還有這個才能夠估算相關的經費所以這個部分也要請這個"},{"start":6036.634,"end":6051.605,"text":"水利署去協調縣政府還有鄉鎮公所怎麼樣去加強來去做處理所以這個經費部主的部分剛才提了第五期計畫那會不會繼續跟這個國發會花東基金來合作"},{"start":6058.993,"end":6066.791,"text":"我們先第五期的部分分為兩個大的方向第一個提高經費然後提高荷波的這個上限的金額門檻"},{"start":6068.584,"end":6092.146,"text":"第二個部分是剛剛委員談到的山區檢疫自來水的部分那上次在這個業務報告裡面部長也有說我們要用比較創新的方法去解決這些部落在地的能不能取用在地的水源用創新的淨水技術來輔導他讓他們可以擁有好的這個水質這個是我們第5期努力的目標"},{"start":6094.615,"end":6106.045,"text":"確實是我認為科技有時候是可以去解決一些困難,如果說尤其是針對這個已經有這個檢疫自來水的,但是他"},{"start":6112.355,"end":6136.152,"text":"一颱風或是一下大雨就會污走的那怎麼樣去解決這個部分它已經有水源了有水源了怎麼去解決這個部分了怎麼樣在相關的科技方面已經如果已經有了怎麼樣去試辦先試辦如果這確實不錯這個是可以去推動的好不好"},{"start":6137.173,"end":6149.158,"text":"好上次那個我也跟部長有討論過這個部分好所以這個部分好我們現在好我上次開協調會這個建築法第73條我是這因為上次開這個協調會才瞭解到這個建築法第73條他規定的很清楚這個"},{"start":6160.305,"end":6186.564,"text":"只想要視縣市政府任由佐列各款情勢之一者得另訂建築物皆用水相關規定。這裡面訂的這四款都非常好但是很多有的縣政府各縣市政府訂的不太一致不太一致這個以花蓮縣來講他就除了這個四款之外他還多了一個什麼一個他們的一個查報"},{"start":6187.603,"end":6212.838,"text":"一個一個一個作業程序的規定然後還有一個樓層面高度還有面積還有這個怎麼樣的一個情況所以就台中縣就一個規定不一樣平東縣平東縣的完全符合建築法的規定了他就沒有增加其他的"},{"start":6213.752,"end":6237.652,"text":"的一些要求所以這個部分就要請這個經濟部水利署去協調各縣政府尤其是花蓮縣政府去協調怎麼樣能夠只要符合建築法73條的一個這個建築法73條就可以了嘛依法行政了好不好"},{"start":6238.697,"end":6254.865,"text":"因為各縣市政府擔心法規,我們會洽詢縣市政府。因為各縣市政府依照居住安全跟城市的發展,會定不同的部分。至於委員建議的意見,我們會代入,然後反映給縣市政府。因為畢竟引用"},{"start":6259.561,"end":6284.093,"text":"這個水質好的水尤其是既然這個地方已經有自來水然後這個貨車它已經可以做自來水了然後相關的這些住戶難免因為很多的這個那個被受限於這個相關的那個法律的規範了他沒有辦法蓋房子"},{"start":6285.442,"end":6285.762,"text":"請楊瓊英召委諮詢。"},{"start":6321.18,"end":6323.343,"text":"謝謝主席 本席想邀請部長跟署長 請王部長署長"},{"start":6330.448,"end":6336.291,"text":"臺中以北包括了桃園、新竹、苗栗、台中的水晴燈呢你給它改為這個提醒的綠燈是嗎"},{"start":6363.209,"end":6379.144,"text":"高雄和台南的南化水庫首度跌破5成,在這樣的情況之下,我們看到高屏溪川流水的部分是低於5年來同期平均值,是不是?"},{"start":6379.964,"end":6394.638,"text":"目前是比較低目前是如此請問署長我們今年春雨降雨量是明顯的不足是嗎是所以水情施警是比往年提早了一個月是嗎"},{"start":6395.54,"end":6422.714,"text":"我們是審慎的以對基本上我們提前的應對我們面對問題的確是我們提早一個月是水情知情還好你們瞭解到這個問題所以在這樣的情況之下我們梅雨季預估要到6月才開始是不是氣象局在4月底他會做梅雨展望的預報所以一般照正常情況我們目前預估是在6月份的時候才會開始是不是"},{"start":6423.627,"end":6425.248,"text":"一般是在6月或是6月初左右。"},{"start":6436.601,"end":6465.102,"text":"你可以撐到6月嗎?署長我們現在定每週都有開會啊本席請問你每週開會我給你加油那但是呢我們目前為止你現在的調度方式可以撐到6月嗎?民眾要問的是這個目前供水是穩定的我們度過第一波春耕大用水的這個考驗那接下來在枯水期結束之前第二道的考驗就是梅雨的一個展望對所以你目前為止你可以因應嘛對不對?"},{"start":6465.902,"end":6481.731,"text":"我們所有的備援跟調度的措施都已經準備好了是準備好了我們就等著要聽這一句話因為民眾會有所疑慮嘛所以要讓民眾清楚那所以因此呢針對現在這個這個氣候暖化變遷的這個問題呢那我們的旱老交替的這個衝擊是整個全球的常態化囉你點頭那本席請問我們如何來因應"},{"start":6495.323,"end":6518.704,"text":"基本上曾書川的計畫加速完成從西部地區的狼袋由北至南串聯起來這是第一個這非常重要這是我們的自有本錢像台中地區的大安大甲我這個禮拜跟上禮拜都有去了解過大概115年我們就會完成"},{"start":6519.565,"end":6542.965,"text":"那除此之外的話我們對於漢澇平反的部分那我們會用我們希望有多股水源包括海淡水、再生水、浮流水各種資源嘛開源嘛所以你將海澇的這個交替衝擊的部分你想詳細順利資料給本席我們怎麼應對好不好謝謝來接下來我也再請我們那個自來水董事長跟總經理來 署長你請回"},{"start":6547.403,"end":6571.042,"text":"部長在這裏 我想請問總經理您在掌控的部分呢 您的收入跟支出當然你是買拉斯稅錢存益稅錢的部分沒有存稅錢是買拉斯22億多那在這種情況之下本席請問明天電價委員會要審議如果依照經濟部所送出去的資料依照媒體"},{"start":6571.943,"end":6586.959,"text":"我們的PLO應該是要漲價我都出在等所以本期要請教董事長總經理總經理在你電價調漲的時候你自來水公司在今年度會增加多少成本請做說明董事長他說"},{"start":6588.275,"end":6611.986,"text":"跟委員報告我們去年的動力會大概前年之初有31億左右那如果再漲價你預估你要增加多少如果按媒體報告報告那個台電的漲5我們還沒確定那如果說有10%我們可能要增加3、4億的增加3、4億嗎增加多少3到4億的動力會將近4億嗎是嗎"},{"start":6616.673,"end":6619.934,"text":"臺水的部分我們也會在相關的政府的建設裡面來給臺水支援"},{"start":6650.124,"end":6668.993,"text":"請針對本席的提問因為電價漲價台水公司要增加至少這個部分的成本要施益你經濟部會協助他行政院撥補給他嗎我們會協助他那用什麼方式那個後續會再討論用什麼方式相關的方式我們都要跟院裡面討論會錢給他嗎"},{"start":6672.034,"end":6689.721,"text":"因為它有非常多的觀光建設我明明白白要增加事業 怎麼辦你這一漲價 不只是民生的電費漲不只是民生 我們很怕物價又漲現在交通部已經說了 公路局要漲了 票價要漲了鐵路也要漲了 那機票要不要漲哇 我們民眾很緊張欸 會不會屬實啊"},{"start":6698.294,"end":6725.3,"text":"請教部長一個決策如果錯誤會讓整個物價漲關光你自來水事宜要不要補它請告訴我要不要補它我們台水需要的建設不是只有事宜我們一定會跟台水事宜的討論我現在只告訴你電費漲就因為你的決策電費漲要不要補它要不要補它我們不是用這樣在講我們是用整個台水你不是用這樣在講可是它明明白白要虧損了又要增加成本事宜針對問題提問"},{"start":6727.06,"end":6730.603,"text":"回答請問本席再請問一次因為電價漲而讓海水公司要增加大概4億預估4億的這個經費成本我們行政院經濟部你會協助補他嗎"},{"start":6743.813,"end":6749.978,"text":"我們會協助台水,我們會協助台水公司。會補,會補,會補4億,如果他3億你補3億,4億補4億。不是這樣子講,不是這樣,但是相關的,因為台水有非常多的這個,像備備管線。部長,請你針對本期的提問,相關的備,我們待會繼續來討論,就針對電費你會不會補他?"},{"start":6767.193,"end":6774.228,"text":"突然間給了又不是我可以決定的突然間你就一個決策要漲價他要增加失益你要不要給他"},{"start":6776.665,"end":6802.979,"text":"要不要補它?因為它的單位特殊價格不能漲!你要不要補它?你告訴我一句話!我們不是叫補這個,我們是補它更好的一個建設啦!建設費用!好!你不願意回答!所以上週本席,上上週本席也請你來報告!電價漲了,你要怎麼因應?你到目前為止沒有給我們方案!好!接著我們討論,你說更好的方案請問落水率"},{"start":6804.209,"end":6827.507,"text":"都在漏,你有增加他多少錢嗎?去貸款嗎?你有增加嗎?相關的預算有編列,那這個報告他每年的經費漏水率的部分是80億是吧?對。部長,等一下,部長,本席要跟你實際討論。也就是大家在講漏水率,他們也很努力在改。"},{"start":6828.598,"end":6845.278,"text":"但是明明白白就在漏水已經不足你已經在開源剛才農水署署長已經講我必須要什麼樣的方案有水的都我們連建築用的浮流水都趕快給撿起來 對不對我們一直在開源可是我們自己的一直在漏這會笑話欸"},{"start":6848.444,"end":6854.528,"text":"那你要怎麼去解決這個問題你去盤點好不好你已經有的已經在漏的你要怎麼樣讓他太管對不對你應該專案去協助台水公司這才是真正根源啊你一直在開源結果這邊一直在漏這會笑話所以本期來一個要求第一個台水公司因為"},{"start":6872.421,"end":6891.553,"text":"你的漲價墊費增加將近要4億的墊費請行政院一定要撥補給他第二個漏水的問題每一個藍白綠的委員大家都關心好不容易的資源讓他漏你們應該去盤點我要怎麼樣專案去協助他們我們自己不可以再漏一直再漏"},{"start":6892.608,"end":6895.212,"text":"臺中電廠近年推動的各項環保改善工程2016年有減量"},{"start":6909.25,"end":6932.457,"text":"但是呢你們不管是這個減量或者是減排的這個幅度我們看到興建兩座室內的燃煤煤倉140億的預算到現在露天欸露天欸那個立狀的污染物這麼多8年你們連一座的煤倉都還沒有啟用部長"},{"start":6934.87,"end":6961.698,"text":"這一些的過程讓我們民眾用肺去呼吸耶這對我們中部地區的人民來講不公平所以本席告訴你你們的煤倉的工程研製讓我們的身體會有狀況所以你每一年千里一頓的生煤在露天堆製這對我們中部地區來講非常非常的不公平所以我要請問你你們什麼時候可以完工"},{"start":6962.358,"end":6966.985,"text":"你們什麼時候可以完工?台中市政府全力協助你們你必須要求你的建築師趕快去補正啊為什麼不補?為什麼不補?"},{"start":6975.163,"end":6987.047,"text":"所以我將這個問題給你部長你指示台電公司趕快去完成大家必須中央跟地方做好合作的概念啦 對不對這已經拖了8年了要拜託你好不好你把你預計要補正流程告訴我們你順便資料給本席"},{"start":6995.49,"end":6997.471,"text":"主席,我想請王美花部長"},{"start":7024.936,"end":7024.957,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":7028.049,"end":7057.041,"text":"部長我想請問你是不是瞭解這一周非常重大的新聞就是台積電的兩座先進封測場即將要落腳在這個嘉義科學園區那現在我聽到水利署有在計畫說因為嘉義用水不足要調用雲林縣湖山水庫的水是否屬實"},{"start":7059.807,"end":7062.649,"text":"這不是夠不夠的問題是不是有要使用湖山水庫的水?"},{"start":7083.571,"end":7102.291,"text":"當區內的再生水在調度的時候短期裡面我們區域的調度是有必要的短期是什麼時候目前雲林事實上也有從包括我們現在在建置的從彰化支援到雲林短期是多久你知道我們政府有很多什麼暫行條例一失失就是20年50年你知道嗎絕對不會絕對不會"},{"start":7105.134,"end":7125.462,"text":"所以短期是多久你告訴我在這個他們區內的他們自建的再生水廠還有包括嘉義的再生水廠完成之前多久多久差不多118年嘉義限制的擴大限制的再生水廠就會完成了那所以要使用湖山水庫的水多久"},{"start":7127.568,"end":7144.668,"text":"這個要看現場的速度喔還有他未來他使用的會員 你們應該有一個時程吧 有一個時程吧 這個時程是不是可以提供給本席辦公室 可以沒有問題 因為這一點喔雲林縣的鄉親是憤憤不平 為什麼嘉義縣用水不足"},{"start":7145.609,"end":7156.317,"text":"然後還要選擇設置再加一線反而沒有考慮水源充足的這個雲林線這一點可能要部長來回答這是不是完全政治考量"},{"start":7158.074,"end":7162.897,"text":"不是那應該是這樣講他台積電他需要先進的這個製程還有先進的封裝那所以先進的封裝現在是被國際的客戶追著跑所以先進封裝這個在嘉義縣這個已經評估了好幾個月了那相關的東西那現在是定案的東西我知道是定案啦但是定案是"},{"start":7182.708,"end":7197.174,"text":"這個決策也太奇怪了吧明顯用水量不足嘛否則為什麼要從湖山水庫調水一天要調多少水因為台灣的第一個台灣的水本來就是連通在調度請問一下一天如果假設每日要使用多少水"},{"start":7198.314,"end":7201.217,"text":"我看了報紙,報紙說水利署說要從雲林縣湖山水庫一天調用4萬噸的水,是不是?這個不是,絕對不是,因為嘉義它最多的用水只有3.6萬噸,台積電這個廠"},{"start":7218.211,"end":7235.016,"text":"那你剛剛所講的四萬度是我們全國區域調度計畫17條備援管線裡面這個管線的通水能力事實上現在雲林跟嘉義或是雲林跟彰化之間也存在類似的管線"},{"start":7235.836,"end":7265.202,"text":"我完全理解但我不理解說為什麼選址在這裡用水不足還選址在這裡然後還要從雲林縣調水嘉義也有全國全台灣最大的曾文水庫啊為什麼不直接從曾文水庫供水為什麼為什麼要從雲林縣的湖山水庫供水曾文水庫的集水區全部都是在嘉義縣但是曾文水庫座落在台南市那湖山水庫的集水區也很多部分在嘉義這寫得非常清楚啊你仔細看"},{"start":7266.721,"end":7283.511,"text":"他是可以提供工業用水的我們雲林縣的湖山水庫他有其他更重要的功能他除了民生用水優先之外他還有防止地層下限的功能你把他調去工業用水是不是違反了當初湖山水庫設置的環評"},{"start":7284.932,"end":7307.498,"text":"不會我們當時湖山水庫設置的環評委員跟我都非常的清楚以優先供應雲林地區的民生用水為主六清以外的用水次之是基本上我們現在六清以外的這個用水第二優先那我跟署長跟部長說一下就是說假設這個問題請你們好好"},{"start":7310.399,"end":7313.781,"text":"回答這個問題假設供給嘉義台積電是所謂的第二優先順位如果雲林地區的用水遇到困難了請問會立刻停止向嘉義供水嗎?"},{"start":7325.994,"end":7352.176,"text":"這基本上我們是區域調度的那湖山水庫的效率總共43.2沒有我問你嘛我一直都回答是或不是而已如果假設雲林縣的用水量不足用水困難會不會停止向嘉義供水台積電是不是要因此而停工你回答我我們全國的調度都是由內而外當然雲林用水有剩餘的時候才會才去支應其他的地區"},{"start":7354.698,"end":7369.67,"text":"這是你的承諾嗎?這是你的承諾?也是部長的承諾嗎?部長請問一下假設真的缺水的時候是民生用水優先還是你會讓民生用水犧牲去支援嘉義的台積電?"},{"start":7371.004,"end":7375.669,"text":"不會啦,我們一定都是民生用水優先啊。好,這是部長的承諾。我還記得2021年的時候,南部有兩個縣市,高雄跟屏東,因為缺水,反發生了這個強水大戰。當時的這個陳其邁市長,半夜率隊去挖開屏東的水稻飲水,引來潘孟安縣長的不滿。"},{"start":7395.408,"end":7412.496,"text":"難道這樣的事情就不可能不會發生在雲林跟嘉義嗎這是你們要嚴格去把關的我們在這裡本席在這裡堅決反對從湖山水庫調用水到嘉義去支援台積電"},{"start":7414.102,"end":7429.752,"text":"他不是一個從直接從那邊來這個必須要是嘉義自己優先來提供那另外也會增加這個相關的科技用水那剛才講的那個是一些備援的部分那對台灣為什麼不能從這個曾文水庫掉水呢為什麼他的網管就長的不一樣曾文水庫"},{"start":7435.576,"end":7461.218,"text":"你說網管這個都可以經濟部責成那個自來水公司來建置啊為什麼不能建置呢?台灣的水,台灣就這麼小沒有台灣就這麼小本來就是大家互相支援假設我們雲林縣不缺水不缺電不缺土地我們現在只是缺一個公平的決定所以呢這一點喔未來如果還有"},{"start":7462.919,"end":7467.842,"text":"要擴廠的這機會是不是請部長能夠優先考量雲林縣是謝謝委員我們一定會來評估是就是一個湖山水庫的建制其實署長就知道湖山水庫的建制有多麼困難你要興建一個新的水庫在這樣子的社會民情之下有多麼的困難我們所有的鄉親可以說是大家都因應期盼說台積電可以設置在雲林縣"},{"start":7491.053,"end":7495.056,"text":"因為我們有這樣子一個水庫的優勢結果到底是什麼樣子的專業考量會讓你們去選擇在用水不足的嘉義縣這是專業考量嗎跟委員報告他現在的封測的急需要趕快把封測蓋出來那因為他的科學園區已經好了已經可以再進駐了所以他其實是馬上就可以動工"},{"start":7520.711,"end":7528.596,"text":"李玉琳委員請做詢答謝謝主席 請王部長我們請王部長"},{"start":7550.58,"end":7573.21,"text":"部長,因為台灣的地形高山跟河川的這個比較短的這個地形的關係所以我們很多的雨水都流到大海沒有辦法續集起來那所以剛剛大家都一直在關心自己當地的那個水庫的情形所以本席在這邊也要請教部長的就是我們桃園來講的話,私門水庫"},{"start":7575.951,"end":7601.546,"text":"有開一個水道就是備援水道到寶山那現在什麼時候會完工呢今年2月已經動工了117年完工那是被子用對不對如果他有缺水我們被子用那石門水庫在去年來講的話大概3月底的話還有5成到今年來講的話大概剩下35%"},{"start":7605.208,"end":7620.545,"text":"表示這個水、蓄水量越來越低的情況之下那我們當時有提說那翡翠水庫也是那個備援的水到水管過來這邊大家互相看似水庫的狀況而定但是翡翠水庫這邊沒有答應要做"},{"start":7621.286,"end":7636.887,"text":"那這樣子的話我們如果說什麼水庫水現在只到35%如果低於三成的話那如果寶山那邊水庫又低於兩成我們在什麼狀況之下會備援供水呢或停止備援供水"},{"start":7637.287,"end":7642.409,"text":"謝謝委員 那我們確實一直要把北部的水往南拉所以直接從翡翠水庫那邊的那個計畫雖然不做但是後來我們跟北水處都有找到另外一個替代方案在三重蘆洲那邊去做一個工程讓翡翠的水一直可以往南拉那這個部分是一個替代 可是沒有拉到我們石門啊最終我本身會這麼說的原因就是因為竹科"},{"start":7665.816,"end":7687.845,"text":"有這個石門水庫跟寶山跟寶二的水都在供應竹科竹科的因為那是科技大廠都在那裡需要很多的水量如果水量不足的話結果石門要供水嘛那我現在擔心是石門的蓄水量不足的情況之下所以我請問你在什麼狀況之下要供水什麼水庫要供水給寶山"},{"start":7689.806,"end":7706.559,"text":"這個部分我們都會去做好調度你沒有先調度我知道你要調度可是你要保障那我們也會把從北部算向北的如果說本席在這邊要求這邊水過水保持在五成他如果沒有五成的話是不能供水給外地好不好"},{"start":7707.389,"end":7728.134,"text":"你們有沒有去評估?你們要評估啊先保障當地的用水量一定一定但是因為我們石門的水其實我們很大量從北部從台北那邊過來甚至一天可以到80萬噸所以本席在這邊是問說我們的水要支援保三保二的話一定要我們自己的水要保持在五成以上才可以供水第二就是"},{"start":7732.469,"end":7748.945,"text":"北水南送那現在我們石門水庫35%的蓄水那翡翠水庫水能不能供應到石門水庫現在就有現在是怎麼供應的方式現在一天就是有80萬噸的怎麼送水有水到嗎"},{"start":7749.878,"end":7774.611,"text":"有,這個從板岸的水庫過來,所以過去這個80萬噸是要靠石門水庫來供給,現在不用了所以現在有供嗎?因為現在只剩下35%有,有,有,有是,所以我們希望我們的備援水道能夠充分地能夠運送到需要的地方,但是一定要以當地優先考量好不好"},{"start":7775.231,"end":7795.18,"text":"所以我們擔心你不要供給保三保二我們這邊的水會不夠我要提醒了這一點那所以說這個情形啊我們的水都供應給竹科這邊來使用那我想請教一下去年我們有限水節水的那個措施嘛那今年開始要啟動了嗎因為我看很多水庫水量的基礎"},{"start":7795.86,"end":7804.555,"text":"目前我們公布的是桃竹廟臺中地區水停燈號綠燈綠燈代表的意思就是提醒大家要鋪水期了我們要加強調度"},{"start":7806.539,"end":7825.408,"text":"所以本席要提醒就是因為去年的情形我們那邊有戰備的水井有六座戰備的水井當時也是說在紅燈才要載水去給竹科用結果你們就偷跑了在橘燈你們就偷債了所以我們居民自助自己來自救"},{"start":7826.809,"end":7840.329,"text":"所以把關注了所以停止你們不能偷債水所以本席在這邊再次提醒我們戰備水要紅燈才可以有緊急資源好不好這個不會去偷債啦我們跟桃園市政府都成立應變協會我們有簽合約"},{"start":7843.654,"end":7863.433,"text":"紅燈才能夠在我們的戰盃隨機是不是請注意這個問題那尤其是現在因為很多工廠水量我們有約束他們在2022年就講說再生水源的條例裡面在去年的8月就水利署有公布只要每日用量超過2萬"},{"start":7865.736,"end":7875.614,"text":"斷的水的話就要用再生水50%那現在已經在執行了剛剛署長也特別講說已經很多在執行了你執行的情形是怎麼樣用再生水"},{"start":7879.414,"end":7901.298,"text":"對,都有執行而且因為再生水它是屬於我們在ESG裡面ISO46001水資源管理項目的一個重要績效目標所以現在重要的科技大廠在設置的時候他們都有非常充分的營業對,不但是政府自主蓋還是它自己要蓋"},{"start":7902.958,"end":7915.388,"text":"因為很多的廠剛剛你講的台積電也齁封測廠趕快成立然後趕快要擴廠那你現在這樣限制如果他沒有能力做再生水的話他就影響到他的擴廠是不是"},{"start":7916.952,"end":7916.992,"text":"是,是"},{"start":7946.583,"end":7965.498,"text":"有這種限制它不能擴敞部長有沒有去了解去協助他們呢目前為止都還蠻順利的因為他們覺得這個是應該有的義務而且也符合ESG的規定因為再生水比較貴成本就會提高再生水大概20塊到30塊中間所以我們自來水大概10塊了成本就會提高這一點部長也要給他們關心輔導再輔導"},{"start":7974.285,"end":7985.75,"text":"接下來請問漏水的問題漏水的問題在我們之前有處理漏水的計畫在10年當中我們編了826億的預算從19.55%降低到12%到2023年還沒有降低到12%可能今年就會到12%"},{"start":7999.896,"end":8007.641,"text":"所以我們要再繼續的降低漏水率我看到我們編出來的預算是634億634億我們只要降低2%而已董事長"},{"start":8014.834,"end":8041.433,"text":"這個比例原則跟之前的826億那要查多少?這個跟委員報告齁現在我們漏水率降到12.54%對那今年應該會完成12%啦12%對那因為已經降到12%你再往下降的話每降1%它的那個經費投資要將近400億為什麼會提高?當然就是說你找回來的那個水量齁這個"},{"start":8043.574,"end":8058.928,"text":"因為是材料、工資這個成本都上漲因為差很多啦我們之前10年來執行的時候大概降了差不多8%、7、8%嘛那現在你現在降2%你的目標是在10%對不對"},{"start":8059.889,"end":8078.898,"text":"但是你那邊的預算是634億這比例原則覺得太高了那個漏水率就是這樣漏水率越低的時候你要再增加的時候困難度越高它其實就是因為這樣的關係所以這個部分其實都是很客觀在評估的好"},{"start":8079.518,"end":8079.538,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":8094.275,"end":8120.573,"text":"我們看到說很多因為老舊的水管以前是自來水管是南亞塑膠管現在換為鐵柱管之後的話我們也換了從2023年我們看到我們換了7,856公里但是我們看到這4年來每一年的這個漏水破管的次數還是超過1000次那我們這麼努力在換管太舊換新還是發生這麼多那你如何去改進呢"},{"start":8121.81,"end":8143.163,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實我們各區處這邊有在統計就是我們的漏水件數每年都有在降低就是有一些管線翻新了可是連續4年你看都1000次以上啊2020年1099次2023年還有1000次那你有沒有辦法再往下降有有有因為我們的目標是多少降到多少"},{"start":8144.128,"end":8167.795,"text":"這個漏水劑漏水劑我們沒有辦法去很因為我們我剛剛有跳北提醒說太舊換新的管路我們都一直換到2023年換了7500多公里了那現在我們繼續給你換你這個漏水率這個報管率都應該要降低才對啊連續4年都一樣維持在一起這個部分我有特別檢視過他在桃園這邊來"},{"start":8169.295,"end":8171.156,"text":"我們小漏也是漏可是我們看到的是怕那個大爆管"},{"start":8199.245,"end":8222.842,"text":"尤其在去年山坑啊龍潭的山坑大爆管那種淹水我們自來水公司即使也都處理都補償了這個給你個嘉獎喔那但是目前這個抽水山坑的抽水到現在還在延宕當中地目還沒變更好細部規劃都還沒有好到明年才會去開始動工嗎"},{"start":8223.582,"end":8248.751,"text":"是,跟我們報告我們深坑抽水站的一個改善計畫因為之前地方上對我們這塊場址有一些意見我們積極的溝通那現在已經跟做了4次的跟地方開了說明會那原則上地方的意見我們都有做了一些調整那我們已經把這個計畫再送給市政府我們現在在辦理土地的一個"},{"start":8249.551,"end":8253.632,"text":"我們希望速度要快因為這個轉接抽水站是非常的重要因為現在又在乾旱期尤其像我們的農田現在有了這個停棲公三公四的情形都出來了農民很擔心如果說有需要的時候就讓他們辦休耕尤其每年休耕是到四月現在休耕到二月底而已天氣每天在變人家提早給他們辦休耕他們來不及"},{"start":8276.817,"end":8279.96,"text":"接下來我們請賴樂榮委員請做詢答我們在邱毅委員詢答結束之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8308.98,"end":8311.864,"text":"行政院撥補多少經費會牽扯到後面調漲的?確定撥補1000億嗎?沒有辦法升級到1500億嗎?"},{"start":8326.859,"end":8346.187,"text":"相關的經費在審議前應該都會定案今天應該會定案吧因為明天要開始要進行審議了審議前一定會定案因為你要撥補多少才欠到後面的整個票檔那部長我們之前都一直努力希望增益到1500億那如果無法達到這個目標部長覺得是什麼原因"},{"start":8350.696,"end":8366.77,"text":"院裡面的一個考量我們經濟部已經跟院裡面有做很多的討論所以部長有盡力的去爭取希望能夠比較高一點的撥補然後降低整個電費的一個壓力所以院有院的一些考量"},{"start":8367.21,"end":8392.098,"text":"是是是好我們當然希望還有當然今天可能待會就會那看來這段時間的整個大家努力的結果其實當然對於比較賺錢的部分我們給予比較高的一些條幅啦齁那我看了一下這如果照這樣的來看的話對於這種有成長的也就表示有用力量成長表示有在賺錢的那我們還是給予比較高的一些條幅因為你既然有賺錢你就不要讓台電負擔那麼高的成本嘛是那"},{"start":8392.538,"end":8420.218,"text":"那如果比較沒有用電量甚至是降低的甚至是減少的那看來有可能並不賺錢那也減少他的條幅啦那民生部分盡量努力在控制往下走大概是朝這樣的方向吧過往的模型都有這樣的一個經驗我們也希望今天院如果能夠盡速確定這個之後我們也希望盡快的那還是希望照這樣的原則啦希望對於民生的影響對物價影響能夠控制在一定的幅度內啦"},{"start":8421.559,"end":8449.954,"text":"那電價看來是會動了那不這樣那水應該就不會動了吧今年水不會動啦水價不會動目前還沒有規劃目前沒有規劃我想這個要很謹慎啦對當電有他的必須那水都不能那如果水不能動的時候那我現在講就是其實很多的管線老舊其實還是要去做一些的汰換啦鋼琪大家很多委員都關心到了像在高雄澎湖的部分"},{"start":8450.834,"end":8475.154,"text":"它的管線的老舊的比例其實是在17點多我的意思是說我希望經濟部這邊包括自來水公司還是要加速這個管線因為漏水的最大原因還是在於管線的老舊特別是像今年的1月29號的時候當老舊漏水了以後其實造成了停水問題"},{"start":8476.465,"end":8493.42,"text":"停電停水這個大概對民生造成相當大的一些影響我希望部長還是要全力的支持再改善就是老舊的管線的汰換時間到了該換甚至提早換盡快來換那減少漏水的發生部長這個會支持嗎是我們一定支持是那"},{"start":8494.22,"end":8514.038,"text":"我之前我也曾經開過記者會就是說去從102年我們投入了826億來做整個漏水率改善那也降了非常多下來然後從18點多降到今年應該會有機會到12了那未來的部分其實我也看了政府還是持續台水有編列預算大概編列808億要來持續來這個降了那這些經費會從哪裡來部長你會大力支持嗎"},{"start":8521.807,"end":8537.726,"text":"跟委員報告大概我們現在階段是到民國121年也是8年的一個長期計畫經費需求大概808億那這個部分我們是有跟部裡面跟業裡面來爭取啦看看能不能用公務預算能夠撥補"},{"start":8538.567,"end":8553.283,"text":"市長當自來水也是虧損那當然這也是政策因素啦吼那水價我們也這短時間也不太可能去動它的狀況下的時候這樣的經費能不能爭取由公務預算或是由政府來做一些協助是是我們會憂於考量"},{"start":8553.823,"end":8573.635,"text":"好不好,我們希望全力來推啦,因為其實水是一個重要的那個,那我們在開發新的水源,那要開發都更加不容易了啦,現在每個要開發更,但是解水的部分是我們可以努力,當然越往下就難度越高,但是即使到了10都應該還是有很大的,還是有很大值得努力的空間啦齁。"},{"start":8574.315,"end":8603.234,"text":"那投入這樣的資源去節約讓水不要漏掉的話其實形同就是開闢的一些新的 沒錯而且降水漏降低漏水力有像委員講的之外還有其實很多外溢的效應所以這個確實是一個非常重要的就是希望能夠在老舊的管線的改善跟整個漏水力的改善這塊政府再大力支持台水來來把這件事情的完成是好不好我們期待下一波的這個八百零八億那政府是更供預算給予支持那盡快的來推動"},{"start":8604.435,"end":8617.142,"text":"是好不好是好那另外當然台水整個也在虧損啊齁除了這個管線要支持之外那他的虧損的部分經濟部這邊有考慮怎麼樣做給予一些協助嗎"},{"start":8618.391,"end":8631.023,"text":"就是像剛才委員講的在降低漏水率這個是對一個社會的公益非常有幫助所以這個部分我們會來爭取那如果就台水本身的虧損的部分呢長遠來說的話會怎麼樣來給予協助因為他這個部分就是我們會用這樣的一個計畫來支持的話那台水把計畫提出來我們一定會來跟院裡面來爭取這樣子"},{"start":8642.273,"end":8659.185,"text":"好那接下來因為時間有限我再問一下南部的水庫的狀況最近當然感覺上有一些些的就是全台灣感覺有點緊張但是我要問一下其實這個時間點跟去年的同時間你至少在南部來看水情相對是穩定嘛對不對更好"},{"start":8659.765,"end":8676.291,"text":"更好的嗎?就光看增溫水股就好去年這個時間點蓄水量只有11.29不到12那現在至少還有53點多而且他們利用比較缺水的時候我們也做了一些疏浚的一些所以其實我覺得整體的政策上面水形象應該相對是穩定"},{"start":8677.915,"end":8693.34,"text":"阿根委員講我們在過去的努力之下高雄市已經成為不但是供需供給大於需求而且是備援能力最多的地方包括像浮流水高雄州有超過80萬噸的浮流水還有再生水"},{"start":8694.02,"end":8722.16,"text":"這個就要謝謝部長跟署長的大力支持也有遠見啦齁剛剛提到我剛剛提到再生水最早的時候再生水要做的時候是沒有縣市願意做的但是高雄率先做然後我們的企業率先的支持所以再生水從浮流水到再生水廠甚至到海淡廠都已經在做一些規劃那我還是希望能夠持續啦齁電的部分我們提前做了很多準備不只做第七接收站我們興達我們大嶺都還持續對天然氣努力在"},{"start":8722.92,"end":8747.501,"text":"所以高雄現在電力是最充裕的地方那我也希望水的部分我們持續來做這樣的一個準備啦我也希望接下來再生水廠甚至於海淡廠的部分我也希望部長持續來支持好不好這個對未來調度或者是民生或者是產業的需求都有很大的幫助我也希望部長繼續來大力支持好嗎海淡廠的部分我知道興達有在做了大林這部分有在做規劃嗎"},{"start":8748.971,"end":8764.08,"text":"在評估當中那應該會朝著來做的方向來前進我們會持續的加速規劃的一個期間那再生水產除了原來的臨海鳳山之外橋頭男子也都在進行嗎?橋頭男子都在進行當中了嗎?還有其他的規劃嗎?"},{"start":8765.64,"end":8787.552,"text":"事實上都還有包括原來的這個再生水廠是不是要擴大這個部分也有在做一個以及整體評估沿海很多的這些的用水的他的需求量也是大的那如果有需求的時候從上次來整個過去經驗來看鳳凰山跟臨海都造成很好的一個效果那我們希望把這些珍貴的水源能夠達到最大的一個效益"},{"start":8788.573,"end":8798.219,"text":"好那同樣的就是其實也就剛剛所講的其實我們的民生工業其實高雄水源這幾年準備狀況其實都是充裕的啦齁那當然接下來我就要問啦齁這個"},{"start":8801.138,"end":8819.106,"text":"臺積電來到高雄其實水跟電都是關鍵因素電充分的供應水充分供應那部長臺積電除了原先的這個二奈米已經一個在建廠當中了這個再也謝謝部長的大力的支持那在進行當中的兩座了那現在船第三座會載到橋頭園區去有這樣的規劃嗎在這個部分應該"},{"start":8825,"end":8849.419,"text":"可能比較優先的選擇還是在楠梓這個地區會比較適合在楠梓,第三座優先會在楠梓這個當然要以台積公司來評估那就政府可以提供的那外交部長就整個條件來說水電土地各方面條件其實都具備了嗎?廠商的這個需要我們一定都會來做相關的準備水跟電都沒有問題我們都會來準備都已經沒有問題了"},{"start":8851.661,"end":8879.954,"text":"是,所以應該是說如果台積麗有這樣的意願的時候南子其實已經具備這樣一個條件嘛對我們希望部長持續鼓勵啦其實在一個很努力的城市他在水跟電各方面都齊備然後也都很支持的狀況下之後我們也希望多鼓勵往南部走讓整個區域來均衡發展不要集中在某一個區塊那也讓南部在努力的供水供電的同時的時候也能夠得到這個產業上的支持是好不好好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":8885.08,"end":8890.552,"text":"好接下來我們請邱毅英委員邱毅英、邱毅英委員會在現場好我們休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8911.617,"end":8922.363,"text":"每個日期都不能給人家一個分析的三月期每個日期都不能給人家一個分析的三月期每個日期都不能給人家一個分析的三月期"},{"start":8942.517,"end":8961.135,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8962.099,"end":8979.609,"text":"現在開始做了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,其中一部分是介紹了一篇文章,其中一部分是介紹了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,介紹了一篇文章,"},{"start":8991.886,"end":9005.418,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9014.242,"end":9018.868,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":9035.306,"end":9035.486,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9060.06,"end":9060.801,"text":"立法院第1會議"},{"start":9077.611,"end":9079.112,"text":"總議長,I don't care."},{"start":9106.047,"end":9108.388,"text":"關於經濟部主管：一、邀請經濟部主管：完整會議"},{"start":9130.72,"end":9135.163,"text":"關於經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司有限公司"},{"start":9159.619,"end":9163.361,"text":"那如果說這樣子就說昨天可以公佈出來的單位有限公司。"},{"start":9182.915,"end":9190.04,"text":"臺水的部分,因為我覺得那個降低我們的預算,那他也確實對我們要求要增加一倍的管線趕快來做,所以我們會再降低他的預算。"},{"start":9203.127,"end":9211.692,"text":"這個部分細節的部分我們會在這個院裡面提出來。這個部分的經費我們會提出來,但是院裡面是不可以提出來的。那我們現在還會提,那這個多少才夠?"},{"start":9230.604,"end":9235.009,"text":"我再跟同仁確認一下因為我們會計畫提出來說才是最後的確定"},{"start":9245.381,"end":9247.063,"text":"舉債跟虧損,虧損公司臺水有獎勵,針對臺水有獎勵。"},{"start":9263.979,"end":9280.692,"text":"因為他現在的就是原則上是要由自己的手工來來指引他的建設嘛所以我們會一起考量的就是會一起考量他的這個量他是不划費的我剛剛講說這個量是不划費的對啊他現在在購買的這個量"},{"start":9291.36,"end":9298.002,"text":"目前是還沒有規劃的即便這次定價掌控所以我們會想一下沒有,我們就是會來協助談判談判是,是,是,那後來我們因為目前還沒有"},{"start":9321.169,"end":9338.78,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9338.78,"end":9339.64,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":9363.073,"end":9363.293,"text":"致詢委員會議"},{"start":9389.82,"end":9389.84,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":9420.561,"end":9421.021,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9433.48,"end":9433.82,"text":"公務員負責負責"},{"start":9457.356,"end":9457.536,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":9473.39,"end":9479.114,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":9511.631,"end":9511.971,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9552.535,"end":9554.036,"text":"政政前委員請作詢答"},{"start":9567.473,"end":9592.779,"text":"主席好,我想請一下王部長我們請王部長部長好,其實又快到了那個用水緊張的季節了那今年那個感覺缺水的季節感覺提早一點來那媒體說法是說提早了一個月啦那我想說我們這邊當然是很關心整個"},{"start":9593.659,"end":9622.238,"text":"全台用水的狀態那因為本席從新竹這個地區來所以特別關心新竹的狀態那我想說目前整個新竹這邊的一個蓄水水會蓄水大概都低於五成了這感覺也開始有點吃緊那我想請教一下就是以目前就是因為台積電預計2027年就是要正式投產了嘛那也現在如火如荼在走那我們對於整個台積電"},{"start":9623.639,"end":9646.115,"text":"每天預計要多9.8萬噸的用水有沒有什麼樣子的因應的方式?除了台積電自己在原來科學園區裏面自建再生水回收之外包括新竹縣市的竹北、克雅這些再生水的供應可以滿足到原來台積電擴廠的需求"},{"start":9649.937,"end":9672.631,"text":"因為我們竹北竹東跟克雅三個再生水廠的時候到大概2027、2028之後大概一天大概可以多大概4.3萬噸那其實跟台積電這邊還是有點不太夠那台積電他有承諾說大概在2030年的時候全部的他的使用水會全部用再生水來滿"},{"start":9674.832,"end":9702.234,"text":"我相信他們企業本身也非常的投入那我知道同時新竹這邊的時候也在推一個海淡廠的一個計畫那海淡廠這個部分的時候請問目前進度是怎麼樣現在在招標中招標中是不是我們是針對國際招標還是有特地限制國內的廠商國際標那麼技術方式的時候有針對怎麼樣的技術去設限還是完全開放"},{"start":9703.38,"end":9731.591,"text":"基本上我們當然希望說領選出最好的廠商用最新的設備在國際上面在海產廠的處理它分為三個部分包括取水的這個效率的提高能源回收效率的提高還有墨的產生的這個部分還有包括鹵水的這個減少的再利用這個都是一個方向所以在這個技術當中的時候有特別限制用RO或者是沒有這個限制"},{"start":9733.245,"end":9733.908,"text":"我們基本上應該是"},{"start":9736.344,"end":9740.387,"text":"因為地方上對於整個鹵水的排放其實是擔心的我們看到你們提出的報告當中對於整個鹽度的部分"},{"start":9765.385,"end":9778.055,"text":"提出了50、100、200、300公尺的一個牌口的一個距離我想問一下我們的汝水排放的時候我們在模擬鹽度當中的時候是從海面還是海底還是海的中間"},{"start":9779.661,"end":9797.455,"text":"基本上是以排放口附近的這個背景的鹽度的部分來對比說我們開發之後的所以是如果是就是我們正常如水排放從海底排放嘛對不對所以我們的模擬的鹽度是從海底去模擬出來的一個數字"},{"start":9798.596,"end":9803.303,"text":"海底會有一個擴散的模式我們預計我們的排放口會在沿岸多少公尺以外"},{"start":9810.422,"end":9830.521,"text":"據我了解是1000到1500這個就是漁民擔心的地方他們覺得其實是不夠的我在想這個部分我們也許需要再做一些溝通因為之前我們曾經開過一個座談會的時候漁民其實已經反映過他們的擔心他們覺得這樣子的一個距離他們覺得是還是會影響他們的一個生計所以"},{"start":9832.342,"end":9857.514,"text":"會後我想說再請署長這邊來本辦公室這邊做一個報告好不好因為這個計畫已經通過環境影響相關的衝擊我們都會有備案至少我覺得怎麼樣去跟漁民做一個溝通讓他們不要擔心我覺得是一個很重要的溝通的一個部分如果到現在漁民其實還是非常的惶恐的時候去掛白布條我覺得都不是一個特別好的一個狀態所以我們也希望說後續能夠持續的去做一個溝通"},{"start":9858.695,"end":9883.214,"text":"那我想說因為我們看到目前台水提供出來的一個報告那麼以目前整個水的成本賣一度水大概要虧1.8元左右的是這樣的一個數字嗎請問董事長跟委員報告我們去年一度水的成本大概是12.91元"},{"start":9889.003,"end":9911.849,"text":"水價值只有收到11.06元,所以是虧了1.85塊。對,所以每賣一度水虧1.85元嘛,對不對?所以去年整個虧了43元,大概創了這幾十年來的一個最高的紀錄,對不對?是。OK,那因為現在整個環境問題也日益的嚴重啦,我想請教一下我們經濟部長,針對台水這樣子虧損的狀態,你覺得要怎麼樣子來解決台水虧損的情況?"},{"start":9917.153,"end":9927.391,"text":"是。那我們最近會優先來請院裡面來支持在這個相關的漏水的計畫裡面用公建公共"},{"start":9928.13,"end":9932.653,"text":"政府的經費來給他做協助政府預算來撥補嗎政府預算撥補的部分就等於是全民買單的意思我給部長看兩個數字我們台水的一個收費標準"},{"start":9949.165,"end":9957.592,"text":"跟整個北水的一個收費標準是不一樣的對不對?是,是略有不同。對,部長覺得哪一種的方式比較好?"},{"start":9959.432,"end":9984.061,"text":"其實沒有比較好不好但是北水目前的這個水價的部分相對台水是有高一點是沒有錯水水高一點可是對於民生用水如果很多的家戶民生用水一個月搞不好就只用20度30度的用水其實並沒有很多比較起來的時候感覺台北水的方式是不是會更合理一點"},{"start":9986.441,"end":10000.636,"text":"這個背景的條件什麼都略有不太一樣啦齁那因為台水公司他負責全台北以外的全國的這個用水齁包括偏鄉的包括這個各式各樣都不太一樣"},{"start":10001.176,"end":10023.22,"text":"所以在這個部分確實是兩套略略有不同的一個機制我們也希望說就是因為當我們用政府預算撥補台水的狀態的時候就等於是全民在買單那對於特定的用水大戶來說的時候他們就占了這個便宜所以我們也希望因為既然"},{"start":10023.76,"end":10038.439,"text":"目前北水跟台水的收費標準不一樣我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠好好去檢討一下然後加上現在整個氣候變遷之後整個用水的問題也變得非常的嚴峻所以我們也希望透過一個"},{"start":10041.192,"end":10065.838,"text":"急劇的一個安排是不是能夠讓民眾更願意來節水來省水我覺得這是一個很政策方面的一個考量那另外您剛剛特別提到說我們目前也希望透過政府預算的部分來支持來減少那個漏水的問題我想問一下台水現在目前整個管理的自來水管線總長度有多長"},{"start":10067.372,"end":10082.397,"text":"福原報告大概有7萬6千公里7萬6千公里對不對那我看到一個數字到113年的時候我們希望我們的漏水率降到12%對不對目前可不可以順利達成今年年底我們有信心"},{"start":10083.297,"end":10105.297,"text":"去年是12.5是今年的目標是12%我們是很努力在能夠有所以你們很有信心今年可以達成就是漏水率到12對不對那我看到一個數字是你們預計8年之後希望能夠降到10%有沒有辦法提高更高的一個數字因為台灣目前的一個漏水的一個情況在國際上面其實排名其實是不好的"},{"start":10106.137,"end":10118.523,"text":"日本他們搞不好只有3%東京大概只有3%那我們整個台灣來說如果說還在12%當作我們的目標10%當作我們的目標我覺得可能是不太及格的一個狀態"},{"start":10120.063,"end":10135.328,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在120年要降到10%以下那我們有去收集到一些國外的一些城市的一個漏水利啦那越降越低他投入的經費可能就要越高那這個我們也會在"},{"start":10135.968,"end":10137.509,"text":"謝謝委員接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答"},{"start":10172.966,"end":10177.792,"text":"首先謝謝子晴有請王部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":10184.824,"end":10206.692,"text":"王部長我首先要提出嚴重的抗議你工作報告裡面竟然幫我們寫台中鯉魚潭水庫啊你看你對我們苗栗我沒有關心是苗栗鯉魚潭水庫要證明一下"},{"start":10209.693,"end":10232.499,"text":"是委員一直有提醒我這件事情我下次再注意一下可見你跟國發會執委一樣不曾來苗栗子下來檢查一遍就離開了從這一點而開始而出來不會不會離談水股是主要供給台中用水工業用水民生用水了你八國的廟宇在寫台中你也不要這樣那我們廟宇在鄉親看著我我怎麼寫"},{"start":10236.22,"end":10238.042,"text":"昨天我們經濟委員會下箱考察想支持苗大細股計畫"},{"start":10260.835,"end":10283.657,"text":"我們苗栗縣中東景縣長現在沒人敢蓋水庫他為了苗栗縣的竹子苗大溪谷計畫要蓋天花湖水庫那大使長你有去拜訪我們中縣長你是支持還是不贊成還是也沒有做出一個很明確的報告我聽"},{"start":10285.256,"end":10288.377,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10313.803,"end":10318.549,"text":"可能整體配套一個做法或是在地居民的這些意見我們都要去溝通。"},{"start":10329.524,"end":10355.985,"text":"所以你的補償不能說那些土地跟那荒山野外你就不好好適當的補償這一點大家配合一下現在沒有人敢要提水庫才苗栗縣提出要做水庫難得有這樣的機會這樣聽得到嗎?收到啊你為什麼拍這個那個是地方政府在改觀的好不好再講那個部長"},{"start":10357.045,"end":10378.515,"text":"我記得你109年開始當部長110年又碰到百年大旱112年我們的水全部加我苗栗縣自來水 水庫那麼多結果共五挺二 我要整個給人家洗但是我今天看了我們啊"},{"start":10379.736,"end":10390.807,"text":"那個水利史說這幾個地區的自來水庫供應的水變成利等尤其離壇水庫在年112年除水利還42.3到今年113年3月21號變成38.9"},{"start":10400.476,"end":10428.028,"text":"那石門水庫在112年是56.3,到現在水庫的磁塵量34.8,這是危險的徵兆,你有沒有準備?還是你好不怕我的基地裡一灘水庫滿滿的啊?怎麼會馬上降了那麼多?主要是因為春耕的整田的這個用水。你是好不怕我們走得很遠,我感覺你不走那麼遠啦。"},{"start":10429.994,"end":10444.31,"text":"有沒有?離壹潭水庫、石門水庫的那個磁存量怎麼會降得那麼快?還是確實在農曆過年之後一直到現在是春耕的時候?那春耕的時候他用水量大於那個民生的用水?"},{"start":10451.786,"end":10471.134,"text":"不會,開始就這樣,本來今年在燕尼地區需要那個叫做停水輪管,兩年一次啊,你們說水源很直,說不用停水輪管,現在又水源很差了。我跟你對一下你就曉得,當然我要水你都有幫忙,我特別感謝你。"},{"start":10473.234,"end":10490.339,"text":"為了不要共舞停樂在苗栗縣的自來水油東興鎮水產改善計劃、離一潭水庫攔水別送的計劃、永和山第二島水路的計劃,我希望自來水公司與水利使再加強一下。"},{"start":10491.783,"end":10504.983,"text":"好不好要趕快因為這個永和山水庫供水幾乎占苗栗人口苗栗縣人口將近45%的人口在這個地方這兩個要衝得好啊"},{"start":10511.243,"end":10521.716,"text":"跟委員報告我們東興淨水廠的那個淨水設備改善已經在去年3月就已經完成在出水了那離潭北宋的管線我們現在也在施工中"},{"start":10522.116,"end":10548.192,"text":"好,加強一下齁,不要鬧開齁。我要跟大家鄉親都抱歉說阿伯不堅持這整個做下去了。但是有自來水地區啊,王部長,我也要特別感謝我們水利市跟自來水公司對苗栗的幫忙,確實有顯著的提高。現在只剩下整個地區,如果把那幾個地區啊,自來水無偏遠地區去供應完成啊,"},{"start":10548.672,"end":10568.462,"text":"我算可以工程申退的時候,這幾年給我加油一下好不好,才把委員選起來。因為大概都在我手裡把這些自來水地區我全部把它改善完成。那是這樣,你可以回座。我覺得自來水公司"},{"start":10569.582,"end":10594.523,"text":"跟中油公司一樣你們現在到底虧了多少錢其實你們虧了很多錢你們虧了又不敢講你們借貸從銀行借貸來做自來水管的修繕工程投資下來我把你們算一算現在一千多億了這一千多億是借錢也算是虧損我跟你講你要小心"},{"start":10595.717,"end":10601.141,"text":"那你的預算裡面在113年你預計虧損22億22.67億啊113年你們法定預算要虧損到7.25億但是你們的結算報告虧損43億漲了6倍所以今天如果水電再漲的時候"},{"start":10620.851,"end":10629.493,"text":"你虧損,預計虧損22億我看今年如果漲下來,各種物價上漲。它以前,你們說112年打算虧損7.25億打到43億,我看你今年沒抄過一百又不會贏。"},{"start":10642.571,"end":10671.537,"text":"部長啊你對台電很好有一個次長在又當董事長終於自來水公司都沒有了你也不要這麼偏心我覺得自來水該漲你就給它漲你怕什麼一次把它漲完啊你們新的總統才沒有負擔啊啊你這樣你連續使用救情來還用公款補貼好像你們經營得還很好那是民眾的納稅錢啊有沒有什麼補救的辦法"},{"start":10673.061,"end":10674.843,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":10693.417,"end":10707.809,"text":"動力支出他們在2022年去年是用電24.5億阿你2023年大概最少要增加到10幾億到20億阿他是用電大戶捏"},{"start":10712.878,"end":10741.837,"text":"他去年的這個預算會比那個這個決算會比預算多虧的原因是因為有那個那個那個我跟妳講旱災啦,電價調整利率你這幾行現在越來越厲害啊電價調整的那麼高所以他們虧損越高我們會協助台水跟院裡面支持他們都很努力啊我看到啊你只有照顧台電不照顧自來水公司也不照顧"},{"start":10743.038,"end":10770.28,"text":"那個總預 我覺得不怎麼對沒有 謝謝委員支持那我們爭取預算再請委員協助讓我們通過是你去的話要中央先爭取預算我們再審預算才能協助是是是尤其自來無自來水地區我說一年你都騙個三四十億大家就反反應應不要那麼吝嗇那個三四十億在現在沒有什麼在政府機關裡面"},{"start":10771.761,"end":10773.142,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請王部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":10807.175,"end":10833.063,"text":"市長你放心啦據我了解陳昌明委員會全力支持經濟部的預算是是你放心啦沒問題這個今天股票又上兩萬點對不對為什麼股票會到兩萬點主要是因為這個AI產業或者是這個最近的ETF或者是這個台積電效應或者半導體大廠但是很多傳統產業他的股票並沒有太多的更動"},{"start":10834.415,"end":10862.724,"text":"現在很多產業從股市你可以看到這些產業的發展的變化對不對上兩萬點是集中的特殊產業全是拉上來但是並不是所有產業都拉上來你要注意從股市的榮枯你去看看哪些產業在這個上兩萬點反而它的股價是停滯或者是下降的比如說金屬扣件金屬扣件這很慘的今年也不好沒年可能也不好"},{"start":10864.005,"end":10885.771,"text":"對於這個沒有因為這個景氣上來然後這個受惠的產業經濟部要加強協助是是這個我們一直記在心上是記在心上有實際作為有有那我們就是分齁群組包括委員講的這個螺絲螺帽齁這個也是我們會去大力協助的一個部分工具機也是一樣啊沒錯沒錯工具機對"},{"start":10888.371,"end":10907.239,"text":"只要齁這個還很辛苦的我們包括這個研發的協助還有告訴他哪裡有比較好的商機以及對外的拓銷我們都會大力來協助另外我們國機國造也是一個重大的政策不管是從產業面或者是國機國造、國建國造不管是從產業或者是從國防角度對不對"},{"start":10907.879,"end":10929.433,"text":"好 這個航海產業已經在這個北高雄已經逐漸成型了 對不對金屬中心有我努力催促之下成立這個這個航海組 是是好 這部分已經有研發的一個專制單位也有這個群聚的一個一個效應我希望說經濟部在產業發展角度能夠支持國機國造"},{"start":10932.47,"end":10934.291,"text":"漢祥也是經濟部長投資,對不對?"},{"start":10934.291,"end":10956.146,"text":"是。 所以你要支持漢祥啊。 那漢祥一個負責國機國造的重大的業務。 有機會可能在高層這個跟院長或者是跟總統副總統在說明這個從產業發展的角度這個航太產業要有一個穩定的一個供應鏈。"},{"start":10957.503,"end":10958.924,"text":"水利法規定你要有一個水價平益委員會"},{"start":10978.254,"end":10987.326,"text":"啊這個只要台水公司有提出來水價調整方案的時候我們這個 林全能是召集人嗎?是那你是副召集人嗎?這個水情這個變動這個這個"},{"start":10991.092,"end":10992.573,"text":"基本上我們是需要來召開那上次召開的話我記得大概是105年"},{"start":11018.464,"end":11040.292,"text":"二零零四年到現在你開過兩次會議二零零四年你設立到現在只有二零一五年召開兩次會議好這個你也要加入這個功能就是說除了這個水價平益委員會你有重大的水情的問題也可以在這個水這個這個委員會裡面去做討論嘛對不對因為你現在轉博論轉軋嘛"},{"start":11043.834,"end":11050.298,"text":"跟委員說明的我們水情的部分是有另外一個機制平台在處理那這邊當時是處理水價的問題那水價當然會影響到水的供應"},{"start":11055.279,"end":11075.159,"text":"水價也會影響到水的供應所以這部分我希望說今天那個名單也是我昨天跟你講跟你反映之後今天早上才把這個這個水價評議委員會委員的名單今天早上才上網連人家店家評議委員會早就這個常態系統都上網了還是水管系的問題還是那個主席說的問題"},{"start":11076.488,"end":11098.904,"text":"不是 這個我們跟電價平益的做法定期的那個開會的做法不一樣有哪些委員有參與嗎 對不對我昨天給你提醒之後今天早上匆匆忙忙你才把這個名單把它放上去嘛這小細節你要注意一下你要讓這個資訊讓大家公開好 這個再生水"},{"start":11100.08,"end":11123.406,"text":"我們有鋼橋對不對有楠梓鋼橋楠梓也是我在這邊爭取才有鋼橋跟楠梓現在每年4點每天是4.3萬噸對不對公營量這個橋頭的部分是3萬那楠梓的部分最後中期到117年大概是有7萬噸左右7萬所以不是我說3.4萬所以加起來3.4萬這是台積電的需求"},{"start":11127.847,"end":11145.958,"text":"那這個加起來差不多是10萬噸左右?10萬噸,如果未來這個男子園區他不僅可以容納這個3座2奈米,未來1奈米的先進製程也有可能設在男子園區,因為他場區夠大。假設他做這種決策,他第一個考量會不會缺水?"},{"start":11146.846,"end":11171.074,"text":"所以你現在鋼橋跟這個楠梓如果假設一個最大規模台積電把5座經驗場都設在這個楠梓園區它的水的需求會遠大於目前的供給量所以你另外你要去思考除了鋼橋跟這個橋頭之外鋼橋跟這個楠梓之外有沒有可能在附近區區再蓋一個所謂的這個戰勝水場有沒有這個相關的評估"},{"start":11174.102,"end":11198.387,"text":"目前包括鳳山的擴大評估,鳳山沒有辦法來,林園也沒辦法來嘛,一定要就近供應啊。鳳山跟林園還有就近廠商也有這個需求嘛。我說附近的區域啦,你說周圍而已啦,或是南馬溪或是嬌頭還有空間嗎?還有翁北、嬌頭、嬌頭跟那個陸地有可能嗎?你應該評估一下好不好?"},{"start":11204.688,"end":11233.372,"text":"你要朝前部署,否則這個高雄市真的他要設廠第一考慮到缺水他就不敢來了這個水的部分我們有一個上位的master plan事實上我們這個地方感謝委員的指導我們都會朝前來做評估因為再生水廠這個也是我在這邊講多少次才有的原本是台南跟台中嘛台南跟哪裡?現在進度環比已經通過是哪裡?"},{"start":11234.616,"end":11237.841,"text":"海淡海淡海淡海淡海淡海淡海淡海淡海淡海淡海淡"},{"start":11249.269,"end":11269.022,"text":"那未來你這永久性的這個海淡廠你新建的計畫跟時程一定要超前否則你到時候很難供應這個北高雄這個所謂產業發展所需的因為他可以提供這個民生用水也可以提供這個產業用水對不對我們遵照辦理遵照委員的意見辦理加速所以10萬噸當然這個可以解決這個缺水的問題"},{"start":11274.352,"end":11301.186,"text":"局部啦,不能全部講,目前推動的狀況是嚴重落後。總統也要看過,我也要看過。水也有,我也有喝。最近也不錯,但是你的速度,建廠的速度太慢。這部分是要有一個推動小組,水利署應該要快一點把這個北高雄海淡廠趕快把它興建完成。不要這麼說就算了,你要有一個小組,好好來"},{"start":11306.95,"end":11319.555,"text":"另外,海水害管率每個縣市都不同高雄市去年換管的長度是55公里"},{"start":11326.644,"end":11345.814,"text":"是跟委員報告是這種長度在六都裡面是算前段班還是後段班?其實跟委員報告因為我們每個區處或是區域的一個太管的長度我們也會把那個我們的支援就是說投入的支援要看那一個區域的漏水的狀況管線的漏水狀況"},{"start":11346.654,"end":11370.031,"text":"像高雄地區它的漏水率是在公司各區處比較起來,它是算比較低的。漏水率表現比較好了。 對對對對。不漏水譬如說管線老舊不會換,不應該換,管線老舊就應該換。 是。不直接跟漏水有直接關係啦,你這樣老舊就有案情上的問題嘛。 是。所以我們也會投入一些職演進去,對。"},{"start":11370.751,"end":11389.172,"text":"所以我希望說對高雄市啊,高雄市過去有縣市,高雄縣跟高雄市。那高雄縣的這個自來水管那時候這個沒有太多經費,所以你這個太管的這個比例比較低。所以你要加強北高雄的自來水管的這個長度,跟太換的這個速度。"},{"start":11391.275,"end":11401.53,"text":"這樣會不會變成高雄市、北區、北高雄的不管是產業或者民生的這些管線都能夠符合標準?"},{"start":11403.48,"end":11427.978,"text":"這感謝委員的指教那北高雄的區域我們公司這邊已經在這一兩年裡面我們也提了一些密集的一個計畫在進行管制台灣更新這個部分是不是提過一個詳細的計畫這個北高雄你要怎麼汰換然後汰換的這個計畫執程是不是可以給我一份資料這半年,這一年啦這個主席再30秒鐘"},{"start":11430.011,"end":11452.139,"text":"海淡有新技術,國內可以用內澱粉的蛋白可以把海水100%拖延,這是陽明教導的研究另外在國外也有新技術,就是說在加拿大浮動式的波浪能讓海水氮化設備這個東西"},{"start":11455.075,"end":11476.276,"text":"這部分我希望說國內國外都有一個先進的技術可以讓海水氮化能夠更有效益,成本能夠降低。我希望說水利署能夠去研究參酌這個國內這個研究成果,還有國外的目前已經有實機的成果,去研究一下在台灣能不能這樣做。"},{"start":11478.462,"end":11497.231,"text":"那在台灣能不能這樣做?你把海水氮化的新技術能夠引進,先分工給量提升,不是很好嗎?這個部分是不是各位把你們初步研究的結果,是不是可以給我這份資料?沒有問題,相關的資料我們隨時都要更新。三個位好不好?好。不然你們要重視一下,不然你有?部長?是。好,謝謝。"},{"start":11506.82,"end":11507.3,"text":"賴氏馬委員請做詢答"},{"start":11532.13,"end":11539.217,"text":"那個你有參加去年的10月跟12月的兵推吧?我沒有參加。沒有參加?10月12月有兵推呢?對,但是比較多是次長參加。財政部長親自去了,央行總裁親自去了。"},{"start":11556.334,"end":11559.341,"text":"我好像是剛好有一次在國外的關係"},{"start":11566.124,"end":11585.917,"text":"經濟一般大家講兵隊都是打仗啊什麼的其實很重要一個維生系統是很重要的我們的人員電網的安全韌性水資源都是非常重要的就是萬一我們的電廠被炸掉萬一我們的電網不通了沒電啊都免費啊"},{"start":11586.827,"end":11611.498,"text":"這一部分你要不要講一下這個是萬一打仗怎麼處理你的電網韌性的問題你的水資源的問題等等要不要講一下在並推裡面確實對這一些都會做相關的這個演練啊你怎麼樣電網的部分你要不要講一下因為他其實確實有一點比較專業的部分那同仁包括"},{"start":11612.976,"end":11638.306,"text":"專利的幫忙一下,誰可以講一下電網的任性呢?怎麼樣預防被...電網的任性的兵推的同仁沒有在現場水資源呢?來來來水資源的部分水資源我們透過區域的調度跟備援的系統之外包括飲食的這個用電的這個措施我們全國都盤點過了沒有問題還沒有問題"},{"start":11641.887,"end":11653.212,"text":"打造水都不會缺水的問題不是那個要看情境所以我們在兵推或是各種的情境我們會來加強演練那個文部長啊電價是不是確定要漲了"},{"start":11658.973,"end":11678.799,"text":"電價審議會確實現在提出來方案是要漲的確定要漲是民生跟工業一起漲是不是相關的細節他們電價審議會會做詳細的討論你可以做得到我們黨團提出來的330度以下的民生用電不漲然後那些工業用電大戶給他漲足可以嗎"},{"start":11681.515,"end":11703.789,"text":"謝謝委員的意見我們都會轉達給審議委員會去做參考部長現在台電的資本額已經增加到5800億然後以後經濟又給你500億最近又要1000億所以弄不弄已經有6、7千億在你們手上然後你這個老百姓的納稅錢給台電這麼多結果現在又漲電價等於一頭牛撥兩層皮"},{"start":11709.121,"end":11711.942,"text":"絕對造成CPI物價持續上漲央行總裁在立法院說了他心裡能夠忍受的CPI就是2%長期的結構2%我們奧月份已經3%了CPI已經3%了這個來講電價如果再漲現在交通費率也要漲啊"},{"start":11731.166,"end":11756.599,"text":"萬物又長了這些東西是不可不慎阿部長阿很嚴重的事情喔我們就是因為這樣所以台電在過去的兩三年確實是吸收了非常多成本才造成虧損那因為放一年齁那個燃料成本就增加了3000億所以沒有足爾的去反應電價所以讓台電確實虧損得比較嚴重股市3萬點大家好高興喔"},{"start":11760.541,"end":11776.075,"text":"可是你注意看長了大部分的電子股阿電子股剛剛好都是用電大戶也是用水大戶我們看下一張碗你看喔十面水庫的水只剩下34.8%嘉義人力水庫因為台積電風機嘉義所以產生跟雲林牆水24.4%台南的白鵝水庫18.8%"},{"start":11787.455,"end":11790.217,"text":"水的部分事實上我們從去年的這個風水期之後我們就非常慎重讓水庫的水流在水庫裡面的水越高越好那這"},{"start":11808.306,"end":11832.782,"text":"最近的水庫的水降得比較多是因為春耕齁那我們春耕這邊用了2.6萬6億噸的水每年不能保證啊我們企業的水車載水的現象不會發生敢不敢這樣保證上上一次就因為沒水啊企業為了用水啊自己派車去載水啊那個慘況啊這個"},{"start":11835.143,"end":11836.104,"text":"我告訴部長還有各位"},{"start":11851.206,"end":11872.523,"text":"比如說國際的一些的用電大戶啊來台灣跟用水大戶用電墨水是一樣的比如說International Data Center IDC啊 是像Google啦什麼之類的計算中心放在台灣喔很好啊大家很好結果你發現他們是看上台灣的低價的電台灣低價的水請問水價要不要漲"},{"start":11876.937,"end":11902.952,"text":"水價的部分目前還沒有規劃所以不漲 水價不漲目前還沒有規劃市場電價目前水價還是超便宜啊我們的水價幾乎也是世界最便宜的電價幾乎也是最便宜的你就發現到這些便宜的都是用人民的納稅人來補貼然後水公司一直了結台電一直虧本變這個樣子啊所以我們的主張就是民生用電民生用水不能漲"},{"start":11905.08,"end":11905.28,"text":"紅夢凱委員請做詢談"},{"start":11937.877,"end":11964.919,"text":"來,麻煩請王美花部長。我們再請王部長。好,委員好。來,部長。是。想救教你的邏輯齁,我們一直強調是說不要節貧計負啊。就是認為說在這一次如果說電價即將要再調漲的話,能不能330度以下民生用電不要漲?因為他是全國人民最一般的基層的人民啊。那"},{"start":11965.76,"end":11977.835,"text":"你一直強調是說過去幾年台電已經補貼了很多所以說已經補助了這個電價所以說這個非常不可的概念那我想請教水費我們過去幾年有沒有補貼"},{"start":11980.151,"end":12007.97,"text":"水費的部分不是用補貼的方式那我們有沒有政府的預算來支出或是因應過去有一部分有那我們現在水價我就直接講我們現在水價也有委員提到水價相對比較低廉那水價現在是不是反映成本確實還沒有從足額反映差多少大概有差到一度大概有一塊一度有一塊有一塊一度有一塊那比例是多少"},{"start":12009.402,"end":12036.773,"text":"現在一度電平均是一度水平均是12塊左右所以說差這樣也有十分之一耶是不是你說成本成本是10所以你這樣講你成本是13塊那你現在我們收的水一度是12塊平均對不對對所以換言之我們中間有一塊是政府的這個洗手不管是水公司不管是經濟部在去年看起來是有這樣子"},{"start":12037.213,"end":12038.133,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":12038.133,"end":12056.698,"text":"對好那一樣的道理啊那你現在大家就會開始擔心啊你現在你們一直用的邏輯都說因為是過去政府補貼所以造成電價一定要漲啊明天有可能電價審議小組就會漲啦那你現在如果說要漲的話那是不是合理懷疑下一階段你們也會針對水價部分也會做調漲?"},{"start":12058.335,"end":12078.717,"text":"水價的部分目前有耗水會的徵收那相關的部分我們會跟耗水會跟水價一起做評估一起做評估?那我們每年用在水價的補貼上面你說一度水補貼一塊每年用在這樣子總預算多少?我們總共補貼了多少?"},{"start":12081.813,"end":12089.256,"text":"我們離島差價補貼差不多是,離島的部分是特別的,水價差價補貼差不多是11億左右。 41億,那全國勒?"},{"start":12089.256,"end":12090.637,"text":"全國總吸收41億而已嗎?"},{"start":12095.492,"end":12124.956,"text":"跟委員報告剛才署長報告是那個離島的是離島嗎那我現在問的是全國啊全國的他現在部裡面給我們是有一些公建的預算來增加我們的一些像備援幹管計劃的一個能不能直接回答本時的問題那我們全國一年針對水費部分這中間的價差有多少那就等於是政府政府吸收也好補貼也好或說調配也好"},{"start":12126.314,"end":12145.249,"text":"有多少?跟委員報告我們現在公司是去年是虧損43億左右那這個是目前部裡面跟業務是沒有做什麼只有剛才講只有水費的部分就只有離島的差價的來拉回來來部長部長"},{"start":12147.503,"end":12156.169,"text":"政府拿了一堆錢一次就幾千億幾千億這樣子要嘛就補貼要嘛就補助但是到現在我問一個最基本的問題你到底水費吸收多少電費吸收多少沒有辦法明確回答你連那麼基本的我還沒有問你細項喔"},{"start":12177.923,"end":12205.655,"text":"我都還沒問你細價的時候你都沒有辦法明確給我們一個數字那無怪乎人民就有一個感覺就覺得是說我現在缺錢的時候你就轉嫁成本到人民身上當要漲電價的時候你就說啊人民要漲要動漲以前動漲的時候以前在野的時候就講說台電有長電以前動漲以前動漲的時候以前在野的時候就講是說啊自來水這個一定有漏水很多所以只要把漏水接水管接起來不漏水了"},{"start":12207.315,"end":12233.905,"text":"台水就可以轉歸回營這都是你們在講啊人民沒有辦法看清楚全貌人民才會覺得是說欸憑什麼這個時候選舉選完了電價就要找我們來開刀下一個開刀是不是水我只請教一件事明天電價審議小組會調漲有可能調漲現在傳出說是全面都要漲有可能是迎來民進黨政府8年執政最大的一個漲幅"},{"start":12234.659,"end":12239.992,"text":"有沒有評估過如果說明天真的調漲之後物價會跟著上升多少"},{"start":12242.443,"end":12266.403,"text":"因為相關的審議明天才會審議完畢我們當然會在相關的國內的高漲價的方案低漲價的方案然後連帶的可能我們全國的CPI指數我們全國的物價指數可能會有多少漲幅因為本席問了好幾個單位包括中央銀行包括中研院"},{"start":12267.043,"end":12291.633,"text":"我們都問說欸你們很樂觀欸說今年2024年台灣的物價會趨緩通貨膨脹會趨緩你們有沒有算到今年4月的電價調漲中央銀行說沒有中研院也說沒有代表這一些國內指標的經濟機關給我們數據的都很樂觀因為他們根本都沒有算到說原來今年4月電價要調漲那電是萬物之首"},{"start":12296.196,"end":12306.952,"text":"電漲了所有都起來水電就是最基本的民生必須啊所以有沒有算過如果明天電價調漲的話不管是高標不管是低標漲價物價會連帶波動多少"},{"start":12310.939,"end":12332.966,"text":"這個當然就有方案會討論那對於能夠盡量穩定物價的這個部分確實是在電價審議會裡面會去斟酌的有算過但不能講是不是因為方案的部分還要再討論明天會去討論那你現在傾向是高標中標還是低標的漲價方式我們會把相關的各項委員關切的問題會在委員會裡面會去做相關的斟酌部長明天那個電價審議小組你會出席嗎"},{"start":12340.078,"end":12357.953,"text":"我不是店家食品會委員那誰會代表經濟部出席是次長主持次長主持曾次長不是林次長林次長本席再一次利用經濟委員會的機會本席現在也是國民黨團的書記長我鄭重的誠摯的告誡經濟部王美華部長"},{"start":12364.953,"end":12379.552,"text":"農業用電、教育用電、大眾運輸用電以及330度以下民生用電這一些都是直接影響到一般民眾生活的能還漲、能動漲就要先考慮不要挑漲"},{"start":12380.433,"end":12380.813,"text":"接下來我們請徐新穎委員"},{"start":12407.595,"end":12430.682,"text":"請做詢答那麼我們中午呢不休息延長開會時間到我們議程處理完畢再休息謝謝謝謝主席本席請王部長我們請王部長好委員好部長好部長我們本席在這個總質詢的時候您還記得我們跟這個陳院長有討論到"},{"start":12436.314,"end":12458.491,"text":"無自來水地區特別是偏鄉地區的自來水這個長期沒有供應不足的問題您是否還記得?是是所以我們現在已經民國113年了但是台灣還有非常非常多的民眾沒有自來水喝"},{"start":12460.011,"end":12467.606,"text":"那面對這個情況 這個部長我們可不可以就破釜沉舟為偏鄉給他一筆專案的經費"},{"start":12471.818,"end":12474.2,"text":"跟委員報告那相關的這個偏遠地區的無自來水確實在幾年前開始有一個專案那這個專案到今年結束那我們現在正在跟院裡面爭取明年的新的一個專案那把這個金額來增加"},{"start":12490.755,"end":12490.775,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":12520.715,"end":12545.89,"text":"一百萬那很多低於一百萬還是沒有的你是不是可以一次就一筆經費給他們我們之前前瞻計畫八千八百億但是民生用水是最基本的人權所以這一塊還有我看到你們今天的報告書要提升供水普及率部長你可能沒看到很多的數字"},{"start":12546.912,"end":12570.74,"text":"你這邊講說欸112年提升的提升到有94.91%到113年已經達到95.1那本席要告訴你我們新竹縣有很多地方齁還60%齁60%還有13%10%的當然那個是很偏鄉但是有很多也不是很偏鄉的他也才80%82%60%的還一堆啊"},{"start":12575.342,"end":12595.959,"text":"所以你之前8800億因為部長您是經濟部長你應該能夠讓我們未來包括我們的行政院長我們的總統要讓他們知道其實這些人他們都是很弱勢但實際上他們也很需要這個自來水那我們一年100億"},{"start":12598.564,"end":12612.363,"text":"那你可以訂一個真的說那個呃他的呃就要簽的經費齁那個您所說的這個真的超過太多的那當然慢一點可是你看有很多還60%、80%的你應該補上來"},{"start":12615.327,"end":12620.532,"text":"那當然我在這個質詢的時候我也特別講你們8800億裡面獨厚屏東縣啊獨厚屏東縣那其他的縣市我牢牢代補我拿6億人家拿58億一樣人口數差不多"},{"start":12631.341,"end":12631.882,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":12651.048,"end":12662.223,"text":"本席希望部長我相信你還是會繼續我們新的總統上任你還是會繼續做部長那你能不能為我們這一些弱勢你就編列一大筆給他們"},{"start":12664.326,"end":12683.46,"text":"等於三年內我一年我一百億我甚至兩百億給他們部長可不可以我跟委員報告所以我有請他們做比較科學的方法或許那個方法你今天這報告裡面就不科學啊你這九十幾趴我這邊六十趴八十趴的一堆我們經費合下來我們就可以跟大家講你要爭取要幫我們爭取"},{"start":12688.424,"end":12688.744,"text":"關於經濟部主管："},{"start":12706.775,"end":12734.044,"text":"我們就是在第5期裡面來編這個經費那這個經費淨水器有可能就編在你的家戶裡面那這個其實比相對這個拉管的這個部分我覺得會比較快所以你要把他們的地下水用淨水器用淨水器的方式來解決他的概念淨水、地下水用淨水器的方式或者他們原來有一些接水管的部分這個計畫本席可不可以提供資料給我是是是是好OK是好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12740.386,"end":12768.803,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢答主席在場的委員先進列席政府經濟上官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請經濟部的王部長水利署的賴署長以及自來水公司的李董事長好請三位謝謝"},{"start":12774.329,"end":12802.903,"text":"委員好部長好部長好董事長好那首先幫部長回答剛剛諮詢的徐委員的問題啦全國自來水的普及率目前平均是超過95%那屏東呢還不到70%其他倒數第二名呢南投也超過差不多85%所以呢我們非常支持經濟部水利署全力支援水公司來無自來水地區的普及計畫可以嗎是是好謝謝好那我先來問了齁目前水情吃緊是嗎"},{"start":12804.312,"end":12818.971,"text":"桃竹苗開始都轉綠之前到底今年的水情是如何?需要停灌嗎?今年我們是已經成立了一遍小組然後省省來應對桃竹苗中地區我們做水情燈號燒警的提醒謝謝署長部長"},{"start":12821.474,"end":12846.539,"text":"每次只要水情知情下一頁就是優先請盜農資源沒有錯啦我們看到各種的統計數字那麼全台灣38萬公頃的水田使用的地下水補助量20億它比六柱的翡翠水庫的有效量還大其實農業用水它不是用掉它是補助那今年的停灌面積補助停灌補助高達20年請問你認為農業的GDP對我們台灣的貢獻有多少"},{"start":12849.96,"end":12876.111,"text":"部長請教一下您覺得農業的GDP貢獻多還少比起台積電當然如果就GDP來講當然不是很高啦所以說啊經濟部呢一向呢來農業資源工業用水也是如此用水調助也是如此而且呢你們還很慷慨你們都給農民有停灌補助對不對都沒有少給嘛沒有沒有少給可是問題是來了停灌補助對於農業從業者的工作權第一"},{"start":12876.906,"end":12902.981,"text":"玉苗業、稻田、停耕、休耕工人、玉苗業工人留不住第二、年明廠你沒有種、沒有米它的經營風險增加最嚴重的是農民有時候你們這個停耕不停啊我整地後你停灌我前面的成本都花下去了有時候呢我還沒整地我不知道你今天會不會給我水你給我水之後啊我沒有整地我也沒辦法插秧所以長期休耕將會使農業難以維持部長你了解嗎"},{"start":12905.77,"end":12925.116,"text":"我們其實常常都該跟農業部溝通所以說目前的用水比例我們看一下目前的農業用水看起來用了7成民生用2成、供應用10成那傳統都認為說傳統的灌溉有5成的用水是浪費掉其實不是啦他是增善耗損跟滲漏其實呢並不是農民把它喝掉往下看"},{"start":12926.041,"end":12943.128,"text":"所以如果確認節水是不是經濟部名稱用水鼓勵節水商品嗎是不是這樣部長是工業用水你們要求什麼耗水費對不對使用者付費嗎是對有效提高節水那農業用水如何提高它的效能呢部長你有沒有什麼想法跟委員說明這個部分我們結合"},{"start":12944.429,"end":12966.668,"text":"科技部也就是現在的國科會針對農業精進灌溉的這個技術田間的自動水門的操作的部分博人是在台南台南有幾百公頃還有包括因為時間有限我知道你們很盡力但是水利署是不是全國的水資源經濟部是水資源的主管機關對不對全國的水都有你們經濟部水利署來調度"},{"start":12968.004,"end":12983.526,"text":"農業供水水權是要跟誰拿?是農業部管的嗎?所以農業用水還是要跟經濟部,對不對?部長,是不是這樣子?部長,是嗎?所以你們是唯一的水權的分配機關,也是水資源的管理機關,好看下一頁。"},{"start":12984.467,"end":13011.494,"text":"農業用水的節水方式呢包括農地的沉砂池讓這些水啊不要去阻塞我們的溝渠第二個我們去整治滲漏的溝渠提高它的輸水的效能第三我們末端的管路設施我們讓它能夠節能化像以色列那種低管的方式請問一下你認為部長你認為當幫省農業用水也可以達到省水的目的你同不同意完全同意好那這些事情都誰在做我講的這三件事情都誰在做"},{"start":13012.54,"end":13022.41,"text":"我告訴你 農業部有農水署有農糧署但是有一個東西我認為經濟部可以幫忙就是陳沙子往下看"},{"start":13023.581,"end":13052.686,"text":"其實呢我們看到了經濟部做了一個大操作人工湖對不對是對於我們水資源的補充效果是不是很好部長你認為有沒有很大的效果目前我們看起來是有部長你認為這14億花的值得嗎是那我告訴你其實沉砂池雖然是農業供水的上游設施但它的效果達到的目的其實跟人工湖也有點類似啦它可以幫助我們農業用的提高效率但是你知道嗎一座沉砂池要花多少農水組的預算嗎署長你知道吧我在講高速那座沉砂池"},{"start":13053.286,"end":13057.261,"text":"花了多少錢?花了快兩億啦!"},{"start":13059.016,"end":13085.743,"text":"所以我是覺得呢經濟部來思考一下全國的水資源你們在調度不管是農業用水、工業用水、民生用水你們都要幫忙那民生用水、工業用水你們想盡辦法讓它節流讓它提高用水效率農業部也很用心的提高農業用水效率我們看下一頁所以我的要求是不是可以請部長談點現在跟農業部一起農業供水的上游設施你們寬列預算共同來提升農業用水的效能可以嗎"},{"start":13087.571,"end":13112.48,"text":"部長跟委員說明這個部分在1號的特別預算裡面行政會員有特別給農業部我知道但是1號特別預算已經結束了嘛所以部長他們現在也有提公建計畫在執行那是農業部提嘛對我說經濟部我拜託經濟部部長我要請教一下因為為了無自來稅的普及地區我去拜託主計長他承諾只要水公司的量能李董事長只要你們量能可以他一定逐額編列部長你聽得開不開心"},{"start":13115.348,"end":13134.114,"text":"謝謝委員幫忙李董事長你聽了擔不擔心我們預算給你足了你要是做不出來為你試問喔無自來水地區的普及計畫跟委員報告因為這個計畫是水利署他們在主導啦他們每年編的多少預算那大概有百分之七八十是由我們水公司在支付是沒有錯我給你很多錢你支薪的完嗎齁"},{"start":13135.795,"end":13160.109,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝我們水公司的董事長也謝謝我們的水利網非常支持我也請你拜託我們農業用水不要懂事水情吃緊要求農民停灌然後給他補償造成農民的農業生很多中斷我們希望你們也跟農業部共同對於農業供水的上游設施像沉砂池、河城水利署共同來協助推動可以嗎?是是好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":13169.83,"end":13170.911,"text":"接下來我們請黃珊珊委員請做巡檔。"},{"start":13204.431,"end":13215.32,"text":"臺灣其實常常很特別,因為我們很怕沒水曾經發生過109年的百年大旱但是我們又很怕太多水因為颱風一大來我們可能還會淹水"},{"start":13217.014,"end":13240.316,"text":"台灣不缺水但是台灣的水很多水沒有辦法留得住這才是最大的問題所以現在的問題在於我們剛剛聽到很多的委員的質詢接下來就像剛剛講台積電還要再開10個廠如果對於半導體也好這些相關大量用水的工業大戶台灣的水會不會缺"},{"start":13241.611,"end":13270.805,"text":"所以我們有很多個方法包括南北調度也好包括增加再生水跟海淡水上次我跟你提的就是說這些廠要來設他們自己可能也要有一些努力包括電包括水因為這些天然資源都是全民的但是我們為了經濟發展我們必須做一些犧牲這個我們大家都同意但是可能也需要大家一起來努力所以我今天要問的是開源不然就是節流嗎"},{"start":13271.721,"end":13295.212,"text":"那現在的漏水率有多高目前是12.54我看到你們的計畫是希望能夠降到多少下一期是希望降到10%但是如果是現在的漏水率是13大概這樣的話目前大概有兩座石門水庫的水量每年是漏掉的對吧"},{"start":13296.072,"end":13297.873,"text":"每年我們花在維護所謂的換管減少漏水的預算有多少?"},{"start":13314.865,"end":13331.173,"text":"大概一年是八十億左右。八十億你覺得夠嗎?部長。八十億是當然你要再更多的時候他還有一些配套措施。所以依照我認為啦如果我們剛剛講除了要開源節流之外如果我們減少漏水率我們的水價"},{"start":13332.153,"end":13355.612,"text":"可能還可以繼續維持但是如果我們的漏水都能夠收到水費的話那當然水公司也不會經營得這麼辛苦所以減少漏水率是一個很重要的因素我想一年80億如果造成它還是有將近兩座石門水庫的水在漏我們是不是應該要增加相關的預算來增加所謂換管跟解決漏水率的問題"},{"start":13356.91,"end":13384.719,"text":"是是好不好這個可能部長除了剛剛給那麼多錢這個錢可能要多變一點是這個是會賺錢回來的減少漏水率你是可以賺回來的這個投資是划算的第二個部分就是剛剛大家就講說無自來水的地區非常的多那現在你說普及率已經很高但是還是有身在台灣的民眾他沒有辦法用到自來水這是一個先進國家不應該有的現象我這邊要質詢的是"},{"start":13386.607,"end":13407.288,"text":"除了這個地方還有一個叫做高地社區的供水問題高地社區一直以來有發生這樣的問題就是我知道經濟部有一個計畫但是執行了一年多目前為止狀況也是預算快用完了對吧今年會結束我們過去是編23億的這個預算"},{"start":13412.778,"end":13428.053,"text":"所以目前為止現在不好意思時間暫停一下好謝謝對不起那個所以我是認為說高地接水在我看到你們的計畫裡面全台只有台北市沒有得到補助是不是"},{"start":13429.46,"end":13444.977,"text":"我們是依照財力分解去進行補助的所以臺北市就跳過因為臺北市有錢因為我在臺北市的時候我們有爭取很多的高低供水的改善那我看到中央的計畫到今年就結束了剛剛部長說的會再去爭取是嗎"},{"start":13445.678,"end":13471.088,"text":"我們新的計畫現在在水資源審議的這個會前會審議的過程之中所以高低供水也是一樣身為中華民的國民他就有權利享受到民生用水這是最基本的既然之前有這樣的計畫可是很多的社區沒有來申請麻煩部長這個部分一樣跟無自來水地區一樣的重要高低供水它有歷史的"},{"start":13472.079,"end":13472.759,"text":"是,是,是。"},{"start":13501.677,"end":13523.774,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢答謝謝主席麻煩有請部長還有水利署的署長我們請兩位謝謝"},{"start":13533.756,"end":13538.038,"text":"部長好、署長好接下來問題部長要回答、署長要回答都可以沒有關係我們就事論事來談"},{"start":13541.585,"end":13560.219,"text":"國家要建設大家都支持但我向來的原則是國家的建設都可以讓成為特定權貴牟利亞的工具我為什麼這樣講?中央水庫當初淤泥說要抽泥大家都支持蘇貞昌院長那個時候還跑下去關心"},{"start":13562.422,"end":13587.221,"text":"但這個案子上一屆開始有立法委員開始追離譜到什麼程度啊你們那個時候招標給英系大窗角蔡金遜每一頓65.5元結果他馬上全部轉包出去一頓40塊他從政府這邊拿錢一頓65.5"},{"start":13589.127,"end":13615.206,"text":"他轉包出去一頓40我算了一下這樣子轉手空手套牌啦利率賺的錢高達40%那結局完了以後經濟部水利署那個時候去年說將刊登採購公報要沒收履約保證金是不是可以請教一下現在進度如何"},{"start":13616.398,"end":13632.488,"text":"跟委員說明我們所有的採購是針對政府採購法公開採購我們並沒有針對特定的對象給予特定的待遇這是第一個第二個你剛剛所提的部分旅業保證金現在還有我們留存在這邊沒有發送給廠商的將近2600萬左右"},{"start":13636.511,"end":13649.463,"text":"結果他這樣轉手我先問一個啦你們事後有沒有檢討為什麼你們一開始的時候一頓65.5他有辦法一頓40塊轉包出去中間空手套白狼賺那麼多"},{"start":13651.04,"end":13679.819,"text":"這基本上我們把所有的招標記錄調印過來包括這個標之前的因為每一個水庫的清理的作業成本不一樣至於這個案子所以你們當初一對65.5事後檢討認為會不會太高今年我們新的標案並不是這個廠商得標沒有啦我說啦每一件事情發生我們總是要冷靜下來看過去發生什麼事嘛如果有發生什麼錯誤以後不要再犯嘛"},{"start":13680.629,"end":13704.139,"text":"我從頭到尾沒有說齁說你水利署去特定圖利什麼人我剛從頭到尾都沒有這樣講喔我只有說我不贊成讓特定的權貴可以上下其手這樣子轉了一手暴力高達1.3億欸看在一般上班族的眼裡啊看的是目瞪口呆啊所以我今天請教的第一個問題很具體"},{"start":13705.55,"end":13720.717,"text":"這個案子你們回溯過去看你們有沒有去檢討說為什麼我們當初一頓要給他65.5為什麼他一頓轉包出去40就可以做結果搞了半天他空手套白狼了以後"},{"start":13722.585,"end":13743.223,"text":"利率40%以上這是我的問題 署長您聽得懂嗎?聽得懂 這基本上我們有廉政平台第二個部分 在整個採購的過程裡面他的得標是65塊他不斷的分包出去 那分包的這個內容怎麼樣他是這個沒有啦 他也沒有不斷分包出去 我全部都查出來啦"},{"start":13744.346,"end":13755.348,"text":"他分包出去的架構就這樣子啊給三家公司啊盡力進倉進城這三家公司事實上是同一批人在開的啊他沒有不斷的分包出去他只有轉一手啊"},{"start":13756.274,"end":13785.023,"text":"他沒有跟我們講啊對啦所以我現在的問題很具體現在的問題很具體嘛你回溯過去看你會不會覺得很奇怪你們一頓給他65.5他轉包出去一頓40就可以做我剛剛的問題很簡單只有說你們有沒有回去檢討過當初這一個價格的訂定是不是合理只有這樣而已我們訂定還有包括說泥船還有包括老屋的部分他現在分包出去的是純粹是老屋的部分"},{"start":13785.683,"end":13814.929,"text":"那至於船體的部分還有其他的這個成本那至於其他的水庫的其餘的這個單價的部分事實上條件不同還比他的還更高所在多有好沒關係第二個部分旅業保證金現在沒有沒收的有多少錢我們現在留存的差不多是2600萬那退了多少錢退了應該是退了三期左右退了三期大概多少錢"},{"start":13817.54,"end":13845.962,"text":"大概是差不多我們再查一下應該我記得現在是最後一期啦有沒有考慮依照政府採購法的規定退回的追繳回來我們本來就是依照政府採購法的規定現在你還沒有還給他的先扣折這個我知道剛剛署長說兩千多萬嘛已經退還給他的有沒有考慮依照政府採購法的部分追繳回來這是我的問題第一個我們把它提報為不良廠商啦是這個不是我的問題這個我了解"},{"start":13847.803,"end":13871.465,"text":"那我的意思是發完的履約保證金有沒有考慮把它追繳回來這是我的問題那一旦是工程會確定的話我們會依照契約來執行對依照契約來執行那有沒有發完回去的要不要追繳回來那過去有履約的部分當然依照契約來執行那現在留存在我們的這個部分當然是實際上就扣底所以你已經發完的部分沒有要把它追繳回來"},{"start":13873.37,"end":13875.391,"text":"委員長商已經履約的部分我們必須要把履約保證金退回給他"},{"start":13897.56,"end":13903.564,"text":"所以你的意思是說已經還給他的部分沒有要依照政府採購法31條第二項第7款追繳回來嗎?這個就是我的問題剛剛你繞了半天你還是沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":13922.031,"end":13930.89,"text":"我剛有說明阿他契約有旅行的部分我們當然依照契約的規定去給付他的價金包括相關的這個旅保"},{"start":13932.025,"end":13952.235,"text":"我再說一次啦面對這樣子的行為我看不下去社會大眾看不看得下去大家心裡都有一把尺我對經濟部只有一個很簡單的要求依法行政依約該主張的權利就主張權利只有這樣子而已所以我也建議署長回去再考慮一下"},{"start":13953.155,"end":13974.531,"text":"對於這種二值的廠商轉手大撈1.3億然後扣他兩千多萬的履約保證金從政府的觀點來講這樣是不是真的在確保整個採購程序的公正性徐長可以承諾嗎我們承諾依法行政預約處理"},{"start":13981.752,"end":13982.613,"text":"王紅薇議員王美花議員"},{"start":14002.897,"end":14023.274,"text":"委員好部長好署長好那我想今天的焦點呢我們大概都是集中在這個台積電已經準備要落腳到嘉義縣然後引起了地方縣市雲林嘉義的這個用水的大戰大家搶水喔那這個問題我想剛才大家一定討論了很多"},{"start":14024.415,"end":14040.042,"text":"但是我現在要跟部長跟署長講的為什麼在這個case裡面過去我們很少會出現這個縣市之間為了水這樣搶成這樣子主要是因為我們現在各縣市的產業用水"},{"start":14042.136,"end":14066.547,"text":"甚至我們的用水部分都會出現缺水的狀況所以這個問題其實非常嚴重我們過去說什麼五缺啊缺水缺電缺人缺地後來什麼缺蛋缺快篩劑什麼吧一大堆這個跟你們沒關可是呢水不是只有民生要用產業也要用我們可以看到"},{"start":14068.859,"end":14082.127,"text":"2030年我們各縣市光是民生用水的部分通通會出現供水的缺口這個是包含台南、高雄、桃園、台中還有其他的新竹縣市加起來"},{"start":14083.51,"end":14099.7,"text":"都會出現每日都有供水的缺口好下一個我是要特別請教部長雖然520之後我不曉得你會不會繼續擔任經濟部部長可是我們現在出現了一個產業用水的一個推估"},{"start":14100.44,"end":14119.271,"text":"這是水利所做的我們到了未來在2036年的時候我們每日的需水量是產業用水會提高到162萬噸這是每日每一年的用水量從16.8億噸增加到22.8億噸也就是說每年會增加了6億噸的水"},{"start":14126.135,"end":14128.061,"text":"成長幅高達35%也就是說我們知道所有的你現在要"},{"start":14133.956,"end":14145.126,"text":"各位來供應水的這些建設不是半個月前一年前或兩年前事實上是要非常早的開始位於籌謀的來做比如說這次的嘉義的這個水你們這個淡水處理廠的一個蓋好的時間比他原來的量產的時間還要晚所以才會出現了一個供水缺口的問題那我想請問部長跟署長"},{"start":14159.358,"end":14179.596,"text":"面對未來我們整個全台縣市產業用水的推估都在增加而我們現在很多的用水的建設我們其實也看不到啊或者有一些可能還會遭到一些抗爭地方的抗爭或者是跟環境影響評估可能也會有抵觸未來這個該怎麼辦"},{"start":14185.122,"end":14197.637,"text":"首先跟委員說明你剛剛講2030各縣市缺水的事情是在完全零方案的情況之下事實上依照我們的區域水資源經濟計畫包括現況跟未來"},{"start":14200.02,"end":14229.4,"text":"我們都是供其大於需求的這是第一點那過去從107年以來我們採取了開源、節流、調度備源全國增加了221萬噸的水將近是全國自來水用水量的百分之二十左右所以這個也是為我們產業的發展民生的需求各方面的穩定如果按照你講的這麼好聽今天也就不會出現兩個縣市用水大戰嗎?嘉義並沒有缺水"},{"start":14230.28,"end":14232.722,"text":"他那個海灘廠是一個保險的用處那全台他不是只有嘉義欸他全台要有10座新廠欸台積電是10座新廠他不只是吃電怪獸他也是用水的怪獸嘛"},{"start":14257.077,"end":14264.785,"text":"這個經過我們盤點目前嘉義地區的供水量是大於他的需求量即便他的嘉義科學園區3.6萬噸的水但是我真的覺得不管當然政務官你可能到520你不一定留在位置上但是事務官也要面臨這樣的問題"},{"start":14275.396,"end":14292.596,"text":"那麼未來我們如果說今天未來我們希望台積電留在台灣蓋更多的廠在總諮詢所問的部長說他未來要蓋10座新廠我們電夠不夠現在的問題是他未來要蓋10座新廠我們的水夠不夠而擺在眼前的是不夠"},{"start":14294.097,"end":14318.053,"text":"所以這些部分真的水的部分我覺得其實比電的部分並沒有會比較節緩我們水其實就是要用聰明的來做調度這個是這幾年來政府很努力在做那我想這個全台灣的用水我們都會增加相關的調度跟開發新的水源開發新水源也有很多問題謝謝有關供的冷的水都在加以"},{"start":14323.922,"end":14330.612,"text":"接下來請何欣淳委員請做詢答。會長請安靜,謝謝。"},{"start":14336.584,"end":14337.004,"text":"我必須要說過去呢"},{"start":14366.613,"end":14390.747,"text":"呃有委員呢前幾年都說台積電呢投資國外叫做去台化然後呢在擔心台灣沒有台積電現在有委員說台積電呢是用水的貨是用電的貨我覺得這樣不一樣的一個標準實在是不可取啦所以呢請尊重好不好"},{"start":14392.855,"end":14412.624,"text":"請尊重 請尊重好不好 請尊重一下好不好 請尊重一下好不好 請尊重一下好不好 王宏威你剛剛在質詢的時候我也沒有講話啊 請你尊重你的質詢時間 請你停止嘛對啊 那你叫王宏威不要質詢我啊 不要跟我講話啊"},{"start":14421.004,"end":14442.537,"text":"你才莫名其妙,這是我的質詢,經濟委員會請理性問政,謝謝那等一下時間要延長喔,抱歉喔趙委我要想請教部長跟這個水利署署長因為呢我們今天在談這個水的問題啦很多的委員都在關心水情"},{"start":14444.538,"end":14463.879,"text":"現在到底缺不缺水是民生大眾最關心的不管是在產業用水或者是民生用水甚至剛剛有很多委員包括我也很關心的農業用水那是不是可以再請部長跟署長再仔細的講一次正確的訊息跟"},{"start":14465.233,"end":14465.593,"text":"昨天針對這個桃竹苗跟台中水情的綠燈的提醒"},{"start":14480.498,"end":14504.987,"text":"是希望大家能夠節約用水那因為在這個過往這個這一段時間剛好是我們春耕的時間所以確實有比較多的農業的出水大概2.6億噸那所以讓水庫有一點下降那今年的春雨到目前為止確實比往年低一點所以我們特別調燈號是希望大家可以節約用水"},{"start":14505.427,"end":14505.947,"text":"因為部長,台中地區之前曾經遭遇過大寒"},{"start":14529.298,"end":14530.88,"text":"民生用水、農業用水相關用水的調度上能夠確保"},{"start":14547.502,"end":14555.065,"text":"無餘,這是非常重要的一件事,這是第一點。第二點是在於水價,今天也很多人問到這個問題,因為我們現在看起來中小企業在國內也好,或者是國際的一個外銷情況也好,回春的狀況還沒有像我們想的好。"},{"start":14568.65,"end":14587.6,"text":"所以呢中小企業帶動的是國內的這個經濟產業的一個民生的一個內需的一個循環所以我是希望說在水價的部分是不是考量到我們現在電價我我我我再講一下電價我個人是主張如果行政院可以撥補可以去補台電的虧損的話能夠不漲"},{"start":14592.603,"end":14594.825,"text":"是我們最近水價是還沒有規劃"},{"start":14611.238,"end":14631.373,"text":"完全沒有規劃目前沒有規劃所以我希望說大家要共體時間這個國內的這個中小企業的產業環境是真的還需要一段時間來給他修復來給他有動能來給他未來可以回春我想這個部長你非常的清楚"},{"start":14632.674,"end":14637.843,"text":"最後有一點是我們現在平均的漏水率你剛剛說是12.4對不對12.54那台中地區是遠高於12.54"},{"start":14646.329,"end":14663.557,"text":"因為有山區的部分是的所以這個也就必須要說我們要去解決這個漏水率還有呢山區無自來水甚至呢有很多其他的因素那我就建議一個我覺得自來水的幹管的一個水情的管理"},{"start":14664.517,"end":14691.921,"text":"要更智慧化我所謂的智慧化是說我們對整個不管是我們現在的民生供水的自來水的供水系統幹管的一個主幹管跟資幹管所有的系統第三個是我們對這個漏水的偵測等等這些都必須要更智慧化因為我們最近大家都在談智慧城市政府城市自來水雖然是在地面下看不到"},{"start":14692.401,"end":14721.168,"text":"但是就是因為他看不到如果漏水或是管理不當其實他會流失了很多我們需要的水啦那所以這個部分我覺得部長可不可以支持自來水公司能夠去經費上的資源第二個技術專業上的資源那能夠產官學合作能夠去推動更智慧化的一個自來水的一個管理系統沒錯這個也是我一直在積極督促台水公司加緊做更多的智慧監測"},{"start":14722.228,"end":14746.064,"text":"那這個部分其實是對解決漏水或者是及早來知道漏水來解決這個很重要這個很重要啊沒錯這真的很重要所以這個也可以讓我們可以掌握一個database知道說我們哪些幹管可能漏水率是遠高於平均值所以我們要趕快去更新嘛、汰換嘛所以最後的最後我還要提醒我也希望就是"},{"start":14747.685,"end":14748.005,"text":"有有,那"},{"start":14777.074,"end":14804.359,"text":"所以他們把這個資料做得越來越精細那另外他們也會去盤點哪裏是比如說重要的如果這個地方漏的話其實影響的漏水量很大等等然後做很多的因素一起來考量那所以現在排成的部分就是讓效益比較高的趕快優先來做那這個我們會積極來處理那是不是請經濟部跟在水公司可以給我一個順便資料好不好我們時間到謝謝"},{"start":14806.199,"end":14809.821,"text":"好,謝謝接下來我們請吳麗華委員吳麗華、吳麗華委員不在現場我們請陳冠廷委員請做詢答請部長我們請王部長好,委員好"},{"start":14833.877,"end":14855.132,"text":"委員部長想請教一下你知道湖山水庫在哪裡嗎湖山水庫在嘉義跟雲林這個地方是剛才蔡議員跟王委員之間的這些爭論應該有聽到吧部長我有聽到一點點那想請問一下那水庫的水源在哪裡"},{"start":14856.659,"end":14880.666,"text":"他的水源我的理解大部分都是來自嘉義的地方。 是。 他來自嘉義的梅山鄉,他來自嘉義的番鹿鄉,來自嘉義的竹崎鄉,跟來自嘉義的阿里山鄉。 那過去在水源的這一個部分,我們要建水庫的時候,那當然雲林鄉親跟嘉義鄉親就有一些討論。 那時候他們討論是說為什麼嘉義的水要給雲林用?"},{"start":14881.746,"end":14907.139,"text":"從我們得到的資訊來看其實不僅僅是給雲林用給南彰化還有給北嘉義都有在使用所以我們的意思是說對於用水的調度當然是由經濟部還有一些相關的局處來去做處理因為我們現在思考的不是單一縣市不是單一哪幾戶哪幾百戶而是整體的雲嘉南地區都要做綜合的考量所以當我們聽到說"},{"start":14909.06,"end":14934.259,"text":"張立善現場他說這個嘉義設廠向雲林借水的時候我們覺得有點莫名其妙因為水源來自嘉義水庫在雲林怎麼會有借水的問題呢這其實對嘉義民眾是非常不公平的那對於現場有這樣的說法其實我也是希望部長還要把這些資訊跟他講請他立刻道歉但是對嘉義人來講是一個傷害因為"},{"start":14935.287,"end":14953.601,"text":"台積電在嘉義,它所造成的經濟效益從來也不是只有在嘉義而已,包含雲林、嘉義、台南地區全部都會受益啊。如果我們在資源的調度的時候就陷入本位主義的話,那以後區域就不用發展了嘛,你就專注在一個地方就好了。"},{"start":14954.661,"end":14978.496,"text":"過去嘉義的水源地然後提供雲林用水這本來就是作為整體區域發展的通盤考量所以我必須要強調全國水資源的調度他是專業的立場專業的安排那我們當然是尊重經濟部跟水利署的調度但是這個縣長他這樣的說法雲林縣長這樣的說法其實對嘉義縣人是非常不公平的我們還是藉由這樣在國會的質詢"},{"start":14980.3,"end":14985.707,"text":"來去呼籲這位縣長能夠跟我們嘉義縣民道歉必須在這邊嚴正抗議"},{"start":14987.096,"end":15008.267,"text":"不過我還是要強調一下根據國科委的規劃嘉義的科學園區的水源除了來自我們嘉義縣的原本水源還是要仰賴再生廠跟海水氮化廠那海盪廠的一起我們之前有討論過2031年才開始供水可是說2026年台積電的廠大概就開始要試營運那2028年是正式來亮廠所以說從2031年"},{"start":15010.228,"end":15033.451,"text":"到這個2028有3年的這一個gap我想請教我們有沒有辦法讓海淡廠提早到這個2029年開始供水嗎首先非常感謝委員給我這個機會來說明嘉義地區的供給量是36萬噸需求量是27萬噸目前確實供給大於遠遠大於需求即便把"},{"start":15034.656,"end":15045.004,"text":"加以科學園區3.6萬度全部都用這個系統來供給水還是夠的但是為什麼我們還要做再生水海淡水是因為台積電他要發展"},{"start":15046.007,"end":15066.17,"text":"在做ESG的時候他希望一滴水用兩滴來用所以我們做擴大限制包括荷包雨的這個再生水他以再生水為主但這些水源量還沒有來得及可以補充的時候我們用區域調度的方式來執行至於剛剛委員所說的全國的水庫"},{"start":15067.291,"end":15082.353,"text":"庫子的所在跟集水區所在如你剛剛所講的湖山水庫也是如此台北的翡翠水庫也是如此翡翠水庫是在新北市但是台北在用石門水庫的話集水區也有在新竹也有在桃園"},{"start":15083.654,"end":15101.241,"text":"區域是一般大家一直在調度的至於曾文水庫它的壩子雖然說是在台南可是它整個集水區也是在嘉義但是我們曾文水庫的水源現在是南部一個重要的樞紐不管往南送往北送都是要靠這個系統"},{"start":15103.041,"end":15121.515,"text":"謝謝所以我還是再次強調齁其實不僅僅這個雲林能用嘉義的水包含台南人也用嘉義的水但是用這些水源可以促進雲嘉南地區的整體發展我們嘉義人都沒有再提出意見那雲林縣長這樣的說法實在是齁有限公允必須還是要正式道歉謝謝好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":15127.008,"end":15150.848,"text":"接下來我們請萬美玲委員,萬美玲萬美玲委員不在現場,我們請蔡易委員請做詢答。謝謝主席,那是有請部長跟我們署長。我們請兩位,謝謝。好,委員好,是。保定好。"},{"start":15153.037,"end":15165.969,"text":"不過剛剛陳冠廷委員已經大概講了吼,這個水源地就是在嘉義嘛吼,部分吶,部分不是超過百分之六十以上吶,尤其梅山跟阿里山,湖山水庫的水源地就是才嘉義來的。"},{"start":15167.18,"end":15195.494,"text":"過去我們就是說因為它就進到湖山水庫所以雲林用是大宗事實上是周邊的區域在使用那怎麼可以這樣變成老天用完罐子就變成老天這樣是很不對的然後這一次利用利用說好像我們台積電設置在嘉義就是用了雲林的水這目的在幹嘛製造仇恨捏製造雲林跟嘉義的對立捏有必要這樣嗎"},{"start":15198.143,"end":15213.345,"text":"這本來整個水源然後經濟部統一調波就像剛才說的徵溫水庫它都在我們的大坡在水源地的地方自然有一個痛苦這個感覺就是說它叫做水源保護區自然有它的土地利用的一個管制"},{"start":15214.026,"end":15232.032,"text":"所以這都是大家共同面對的一個狀況,所以專門水口的水,全國調波主要供給南科用,這個都是很健康的啊,怎麼可以現在說這樣,五三水口這個口地分林,他就說全部都是他們的,這是什麼道理啊?"},{"start":15233.058,"end":15240.4,"text":"是我覺得大家還是水確實是也是一樣要全台灣來調度啦吼那我覺得這個對我們現在來講特別是這個珍珠串計畫更是我們更會把它從台北的地方對一直往南調度對一直更順暢的調度嘛那所以我再進一步的吼我要請教啦吼因為剛剛那個講的就算了啦吼"},{"start":15260.325,"end":15278.165,"text":"我覺得與你沒有必要再糾結這一點那我想這一次台積電封測場那我們經濟部現在在規劃所謂的再生水那這個再生水我一直覺得說對於未來我們整個居民的現民的一個環境也是一個大很好的一個改善"},{"start":15279.7,"end":15303.889,"text":"目前我想請教這個部長說你們現在規劃的再生水他所謂的接管跟這個民生用水啊其他的一些污水他的接管你們的範圍到底是多大基本上現在是以擴大限制這個0.45為主那其他的這個部分的話你們不會只有限制特區吧不會那到底會多大"},{"start":15304.879,"end":15331.935,"text":"這個是隨著這個應該是整個市區民生的接管率比較完善這個水源量比較穩定我現在講的都是算我們的市區我們也知道說我們在嘉義的市區不像不像政科嘛不像都市嘛我們都是一個部落一個部落的啊所以到底你們會到怎樣的一個部落的範圍那站在我的期待啦我希望這個範圍越大越好"},{"start":15335.139,"end":15359.099,"text":"這個當然是沒有問題包括高鐵的特定區包括太保的都市計劃區這些都涵蓋在裡面如果只有高鐵跟太保的都市計劃區範圍還沒有那麼大範圍還不夠因為太保事實上也有分為東太保西太保那我是想說如果可以範圍跑到的東太保因為東太保才是太保目前人口最稠密的地方"},{"start":15359.979,"end":15385.223,"text":"既然人口多的地方表示那邊的可以求的水主人比較多,不然那邊比較空?所以我是覺得說你們可以在考慮的時候把整個太保都納進來。我們再生水的使用盡量擴大使用,除此之外的話若是因為路線的關係我們還有帶旅行的一個機制,這個部分都有完善的配套。"},{"start":15385.845,"end":15403.895,"text":"好所以我這個範圍我希望未來你們可以要開會的時候那可以再聽一些我們地方的建議畢竟我們對於哪個地方的一個生活區他們有這樣的需求這個我們應該是可以再提供一點建議好不好好那再第二個問題就是說"},{"start":15406.824,"end":15427.562,"text":"這一個土方目前我們知道嘉義科學園區他大概在規劃上他必須要把他的高層墊高而且是用200年的一個防洪標準所以他大概需要一些土方那這些土方的來源我就是可以具體建議去年發生了這個巴掌溪的這個議題"},{"start":15435.228,"end":15455.08,"text":"然後還有還有我們的水上的鄉親去過世這個大家很難過那我們所以我們急著都在處理這個巴展西兩側的輸進那我目前我初初步跟五合局在聊天的時候他給我一個數字我不知道經不精準就是那裡需要輸進可能還需要這個500500萬方"},{"start":15460.783,"end":15487.197,"text":"對,是很大喔,很多喔那這個很難去化而我最近也一直在跟台糖在那邊溝通說能不能把這個土先暫置在台糖或者是我們去幫台糖第4D的地方幫他做這個土壤的改良那這個溝通更是也是一點點一點點的去化阿現在難得有這個機會如果這些土方可以進入這個未來國科會嘉義科學園區的土方哇,那是100分"},{"start":15488.775,"end":15510.136,"text":"這個沒有問題過去在科學園區的開發現在既有的科學園區我們就是用這個模式除了河川的清淤之外水庫的清淤也是一個來源當然以就近為主因為我現在比較擔心的就是說我們目前站在水利署的考量會覺得我去使用水庫的土方"},{"start":15511.165,"end":15525.751,"text":"那一些會用前餐計劃來補助運費,你也知道投最嚴重的就是這些運費嗎?不會,委員,我們在嘉義青的究竟可以擴大通紅"},{"start":15526.531,"end":15551.494,"text":"然後又可以增加這個科學營區的建設這是當然最好的當然最好我剛剛講的是所謂水庫的部分我現在是說事實上我也在替你們考量啦因為過去你們在做增溫水庫啊白河水庫的清淤這有前瞻預算來做它背後的一個挹注所以不會這個運費沒有動到你們的本預算但是未來巴掌溪的清淤可不可以比照"},{"start":15552.955,"end":15560.499,"text":"當時的這個水庫清淤的一個辦法 這個目前我不知道那我擔心的就是說 這樣會變成一個排擠效應嗎?還是沒關係 你們覺得說 你們的遺申高"},{"start":15566.27,"end":15591.619,"text":"這個基本上我們現在清淤的地方是再到更遠去了那所以說放到這個嘉義科學園區的話因為它更近所以站在節省運費減少支出的立場是最好的好不好所以我們應該是盡量使用這裡的土方好不好好第二個就是說因為我們現在一直在討論這個輸進的工作啦所以我事實上也有在關心我們嘉義有一個陸寮水庫那這個陸寮水庫的"},{"start":15595.62,"end":15599.502,"text":"蘇俊什麼時候會開始進行呢?"},{"start":15599.502,"end":15615.468,"text":"這落後都說農用的啦。都農用的而已。各位有報告你今年超過10月有75個嘛。我們現在有做過評估啦。入了水庫的話可能除了清淤之外還有一些水源的計畫。它可能必須要從這個雲水溪這樣過來。"},{"start":15616.849,"end":15636.946,"text":"那我們現在初步的規劃它的總經費大概有將近差不多70億左右那這個部分我覺得當然庫容要把它恢復起來因為它可能還是要把它輸超過300萬地方左右我們希望說這整體的計畫可以清了庫容又可以找到新的水源"},{"start":15637.586,"end":15652.179,"text":"又可以對區域裡面有更大的幫助我這邊再次的跟委員說明現在目前為止嘉義並沒有缺水供給量遠遠大於需求量我們供給量是36萬現在需求量是27萬"},{"start":15655.902,"end":15670.158,"text":"當然我們需要調度跟備援來因應氣候變遷甚至我們需要科技造水包括再生水甚至符合ESG的對於產業都有幫助的把一滴水用兩滴使用這個是我們做的方向"},{"start":15674.182,"end":15693.884,"text":"你富山水庫的水含我們家客來說它是備用水,它也不是百分之百要去用它的水,是讓我們嘉義的水源就是夠啊。第二個就是這個再生水,這個對我們嘉義來說是改善了我們整個用水,整個水污染的一些排除啊,我們整個生活條件的都可以提升耶。"},{"start":15694.404,"end":15702.771,"text":"所以保定我也是來感謝啦在我這段時間一直在你責責一直在你還就是在你感謝說你替我們嘉義幫了很多忙也說了很多好話所以目前這個台積電、COWAS、豐車廠、落腳嘉義這個真的部長要感謝你啦謝謝委員我覺得產業有需要我們都要積極協助是感謝謝謝"},{"start":15728.252,"end":15732.015,"text":"羅廷偉委員登記發言委員除了不在場之外,其與經理發言完畢,詢答結束。委員邱益穎委員所提書面,質詢列入公報。"},{"start":15748.388,"end":15771.622,"text":"書面質詢以及未附答覆的部分請相關單位在一週之內以書面答覆並附資本會各位同仁針對於台水的預算案如果有修正動議或相關的提案請於3月27日星期三中午12點以前送經濟委員會的辦公室以利後續會診我們預時不再收案"},{"start":15775.024,"end":15788.572,"text":"本日所列的報告以及討論事項均詢答結束討論事項部分定期繼續進行審查現在商會謝謝所有的議事同仁謝謝"},{"start":15807.073,"end":15837.073,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15840.349,"end":15844.679,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}