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如果願意回台灣的我們當然要幫他解決五缺的問題第一個你說就地那美國就顯然就不是了嘛 對不對那這要想辦法要多幫忙好不好另外我要談最近很熱門的一個議題就是霸凌霸凌一開始從勞動部這邊"},{"start":230.619,"end":255.169,"text":"燒起來之後啊 火電費注意到沒有 你的中友啊 台電 媒體上都點名啊中友啊 有人出來申訴 這個母親都看不下去 她的小孩 她女兒被霸凌都兩度輕生了 然後呢 你們的調查竟然裡面還出現跟勞動部一樣的"},{"start":257.441,"end":279.956,"text":"中友臺中異化天然氣場,他自己去做調查,他裡面講到就是利益良善啊。像前陣子為什麼弄到連勞動部長都下台?就是因為勞動部的調查裡面講到說他的利益是良善的,結果一樣的字眼出現在中友的調查報告裡面。這個案子你目前,火雞你目前了解什麼?中友這邊後來查的狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":283.687,"end":287.83,"text":"他現在引起最大的討論第一當然就是因為你們的初步的調查報告裡面出現利益良善這個字眼嘛"},{"start":310.061,"end":320.812,"text":"我們在第一頁第一頁這個受霸凌這個員工欸他是兩度輕生這很嚴重的事情欸也得講啊是怎麼樣搞到是不是我沒有死所以就不重視嗎"},{"start":322.116,"end":322.957,"text":"臺電聯繫報導說有去年跟今年都有員工跳樓"},{"start":351.841,"end":378.112,"text":"那個跳樓不是那個是有那個憂鬱症的狀況你們認為是心理問題嘛 對不對那個總經理你們說初步你們調查是心理問題嘛那媒體就質疑啊 都說當事人或是旁邊的職員都出來檢舉說是霸凌嘛那解決方法是什麼 跟中友一樣啊經濟部進去查好不好 這幾天啊我的臉書跟我的辦公室接到一堆的那個檢舉經濟部裡面"},{"start":381.954,"end":405.08,"text":"國營事業,還有一些附屬機關,真的...那我給部長看一個圖你看這個圖有一個員工被霸凌啊金屬中心員工被霸凌因為他在一次的這個視訊的準備上面沒有準備好他的長官叫他做什麼事情"},{"start":406.823,"end":413.024,"text":"強迫他出遊假日要參加活動事信沒弄好叫他背一個事信要提早準備郭柵當街示眾讓大家看會不會太離間這個被霸凌者他們現在一些人來檢取他們幫這個被霸凌者"},{"start":433.459,"end":434.059,"text":"發言委員：張啓楷發言委員：張啓楷"},{"start":465.151,"end":492.77,"text":"我們現在已經在調查應該是29號就會有結果出來這個案子你29號會有結果?對對對我調查完畢啦我調查完畢然後開始進入這個審查29號是經濟部進去查金屬中心?我們金屬中心現在他自己本身啟動這個調查金屬中心本身有啟動這個調查這是一個副處長他這個被霸凌者現在雖然離開了可是你看這個真的很不堪"},{"start":504.037,"end":521.147,"text":"上禮拜我特別提醒信保基金的這個事情現在又有人進來說不是只有什麼性騷擾的問題啊連霸凌都有霸凌現在人家已經去申訴了信保基金這個案子最嚴重的在什麼地方"},{"start":522.52,"end":551.363,"text":"他的董事長,信保基金的董事長接到性騷擾的案子,拖了一個半夜才處理。為什麼?性騷擾者他本身是個協理,他還是工會的理事長,結果後來都是工會出來幫忙講話。你這樣對這個性騷擾者公平嗎?更重要的,到底為什麼現在所有經濟部發生問題的,都是原單位去調查?你應該就跳脫,至少要上一層嘛,對不對?"},{"start":552.731,"end":554.312,"text":"你們事實上是有一個辦法嘛 對不對你們經濟部有一個"},{"start":584.464,"end":604.38,"text":"經濟部這個職場霸凌防治跟申訴這個要點可是這裡面最嚴重的大部分都停了到原單位調查完以後就停止了所以今天我們部長我們非常明確要求上層一方面你說他調查OK調查完目前大家看到都是不滿意的對不對?因為中油、台電、信保基金"},{"start":605.475,"end":610.059,"text":"行政院長已經說了,其實上禮拜說過這禮拜所有辦理案件都要簽過啊,你現在進度已經落後囉?是,我沒有在進行要進行嘛,你說29號嘛"},{"start":633.435,"end":658.993,"text":"我們是29號他們會調查完29號調查完嗎?對不是,那你這樣進度已經落後卓院長的進度啦他是不是一個禮拜以內就要簽完啊?要快一點啦好不好?那你簽完趕快把那個報告送到本級辦公室來一定要避免這個霸凌的狀況你看現在勞動部是因為已經鬧出人命了那你發現我們現在整個法令漏洞太多了所以我們要推那個吹噪者保護法"},{"start":659.96,"end":660.12,"text":"請勿模仿"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時44分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。川普昨天宣布，他上任的第一天就要發布命令了，現在重點是要對大陸所有的產品，他上一任是對部分的產品，對不對？他宣布第一天就要對所有大陸進口的產品加徵10%的關稅，而且後續可能包括一些東南亞國家，越南都在裡面。臺商有很多在大陸，後來有一些移到東南亞，政府要怎麼幫他們？我們經濟部要怎麼因應？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會根據在中國的臺商未來的市場導向來分類，如果他是以中國市場為目標的，我們就會協助他轉到其他地區，目前還在討論，是不是轉到對中國比較friendly的地區……"],["張委員啓楷：這對於我們在大陸的臺商衝擊很大，因為他一下子就多了10%的關稅出來，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以這個要幫忙，以前他們可能就移到東南亞，現在慘了！他講了，之後東南亞也要開始加稅啊！我們要怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：如果臺商是以歐美為目標市場的話，我們儘量就是協助他們轉到美國可能會比較friendly的國家。"],["張委員啓楷：另外的地方？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，另外一個最好的方法當然就是讓他回臺灣，剛剛講我們的「投資臺灣」最近做得不錯啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：可是我們也發現「投資臺灣」的很多臺商從大陸回來之後，就碰到五缺，所以現在很多投資是回來已經通過了，可是後來設廠什麼都延宕了，這個可能要加油啦！我們是肯定「投資臺灣」這幾年有貢獻，如果是真的碰到五缺的問題，你對臺商的狀況應該很瞭解，對不對？他回來就是要找土地沒土地，水電也是問題，還有缺工，所以很多「投資臺灣」的回來，案子就擺在那裡，到現在進度就是延宕了。"],["郭部長智輝：我們報告委員，我的想法就是協助在中國的臺商能夠兩個面向，一個就是讓他能夠低成本化，另外一個是能夠讓他加值化。","在低成本，我們是儘量讓他在未來的製造能夠接近他的客戶，那在臺灣製造，如果他是seeking臺灣的市場，當然我們協助他在臺灣製造，如果是別的地方，我們儘量協助他靠近他的市場，這是第一個。第二個，我們希望他能夠加值化，當然這要看他未來這個市場如何去加值。所以我們都有在幫助他們思考未來的競爭力。"],["張委員啓楷：好，如果願意回臺灣的……"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然歡迎。"],["張委員啓楷：要幫他解決五缺的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你說就地，那美國顯然就不是了，對不對？這要想辦法，要多幫忙，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，我要談最近很熱門的一個議題，就是霸凌，霸凌一開始從勞動部這邊燒起來之後，部長，你有注意到嗎？你的中油、台電，媒體上都點名了，中油有人出來申訴，這個母親都看不下去了，他說他的女兒被霸凌，都兩度輕生了，然後你們的調查竟然裡面還出現跟勞動部一樣的，中油台中液化天然氣廠自己去做調查，裡面講到就是「立意良善」，前陣子為什麼弄到連勞動部長都下臺，就是因為勞動部的調查裡面講到他的立意是良善的，結果一樣的字眼出現在中油的調查報告裡面，部長，這個案子你目前的瞭解是怎樣？中油後來查的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概是這樣，有正式申訴的，我們都已經按照程序去調查分支的單位，根據目前我們瞭解，還沒有發現到剛才委員所垂詢的這一部分，不過我們回去深刻的瞭解一下……"],["張委員啓楷：它現在引起最大討論的第一個當然就是因為你們初步的調查報告裡面出現「立意良善」這個字眼。"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們再……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，這個受霸凌的員工是兩度輕生，這很嚴重的事情耶！他就講，是不是他沒有死，所以就不重視嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定要重視這些問題，我想這個問題如委員所垂詢的，我們感同身受啦！我們不允許在這裡面有職場霸凌的……"],["張委員啓楷：所以不要是中油自己查，經濟部自己下去，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：就是上一層，上一層進去查，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：如果需要，我們馬上會去做。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？經濟部進去查。台電的狀況也一樣。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：媒體連續報導，台電去年及今年都有員工跳樓，你們認為是心理問題，對不對？總經理，你們說初步調查是心理問題嘛！"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那媒體就質疑，每次當事人或者是旁邊的職員都出來檢舉說是霸凌。解決方法是什麼？跟中油一樣，經濟部進去查，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：這幾天我的臉書及我的辦公室接到一堆檢舉，包括經濟部裡面、國營事業，還有些附屬機關，我給部長看一個圖，你看這個圖，有一個金屬中心的員工被霸凌，因為他在一次的視訊準備上面沒有準備好，他的長官叫他做什麼事情？第一個，強迫他出遊，要他假日參加活動，第二個，部長，你看，他視訊沒弄好，長官叫他背一個「視訊要提早準備」的帶子，這是什麼？古早的遊街示眾，讓大家看，是不是？會不會太離譜了！現在一些人來檢舉，他們幫這個被霸凌者喊冤和抗議，金屬中心裡面的水準很高，你看裡面大概九成以上都碩士，六成以上都博士，你知道這個被霸凌的人在金屬中心工作的時候受到這種待遇，他現在在某一個大學教書，是教授耶！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想……"],["張委員啓楷：一個高學歷、很勤奮工作的人在金屬中心裡面被副處長霸凌，你看到他背這個叫羞辱帶，是不是？他們現在叫羞辱帶……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在已經在調查，應該是29日就會有結果出來。"],["張委員啓楷：這個案子你29日會有結果？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，我們調查完畢了，開始進入審查……"],["張委員啓楷：29日，是經濟部進去查金屬中心？"],["郭部長智輝：我們金屬中心自己本身啟動這個調查。"],["張委員啓楷：有啟動嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：有，金屬中心本身有啟動這個調查。"],["張委員啓楷：這是一個副處長，這個被霸凌者現在雖然離開了，可是你看這個真的很不堪，他背那個羞辱帶，當街這樣騎著車子要讓大家看。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們跟委員一樣感同身受啦！"],["張委員啓楷：這太羞辱人了！"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["張委員啓楷：好。上禮拜我特別提醒「性保基金」的這個事情，現在又有人進來說不是只有性騷擾的問題，連霸凌都有，霸凌的部分現在人家已經在申訴了，「性保基金」這個案子最嚴重的在什麼地方？第一個，信保基金的董事長接到性騷擾的案子拖了一個半月才處理，第二個，性騷擾者本身是協理，也是工會的理事長，結果後來都是工會出來幫忙講話，這樣對被性騷擾者公平嗎？更重要的，到底為什麼現在所有經濟部發生問題的都是原單位去調查，至少要上一層，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：程序上可能就是原單位要先報告一下，如果確實有要處理的時候，我想上一層才下去調查，這可能是原來的程序。"],["張委員啓楷：署長有進去調查嘛！署長，你現在最新進度是怎麼樣？部長，你讓署長……"],["郭部長智輝：他的報告出來以後，我們會判斷，如果需要上一層再下去調查，我們會馬上啟動。"],["張委員啓楷：你們事實上是有一個辦法，對不對？你們經濟部有一個「經濟部職場霸凌防治與申訴處理要點」，可是這裡面最嚴重的，就是我剛才講的，大部分都到原單位調查完以後就停止了。部長，所以今天我們非常明確要求上層進去查，你說他們調查，OK，調查完，但是目前大家看到都是不滿意的，對不對？從中油、台電、性保基金，還有剛剛講的金屬中心，所以上一層趕快進去查，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，這個辦法是在去年12月開始實施的，你在一個禮拜好了，把這1年到底收到多少申訴、處理的狀況是怎麼樣子，送到本席辦公室，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：行政院長已經講了，上禮拜講這禮拜所有霸凌案件都要清過啊！你現在進度已經落後了喔！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們有再進行。"],["張委員啓楷：要進行，你說29日……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，是29日他們會調查完。"],["張委員啓楷：29日調查完嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["張委員啓楷：不是，這個進度已經落後卓院長說的進度了，他說一個禮拜以內就要清完，要再快一點啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：那你先查完，趕快把那個報告送到本席辦公室來。"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：一定要避免霸凌的狀況，你看現在勞動部是因為已經鬧出人命了，也發現我們現在整個法令漏洞太多了，所以我們要推吹哨者保護法，既然你們申訴要點已經有了，要檢討一下，過去一年到底有多少人申訴、處理的狀況是怎麼樣子，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：加油，一定要把這個安全網補起來，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["主席：再請經濟部把調查報告給本委員會的所有委員。","請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","林月琴","蔡易餘","黃國昌","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","何欣純","葉元之","林倩綺","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}