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我知道委員很關心這個事情 我當然跟委員報告 我們加速蓋燃氣就是要提早污煤"},{"start":479.446,"end":485.953,"text":"那個燃煤機組是放在那邊做緊急備用的嗎?我就是問到 經濟使用現在會變成常態化嗎?不會啦 絕對不會 我跟你保證不會絕對不可能把它常態化因為剛剛是緊急機組他一年就是限制發電時間只有720小時而且台電至今為止"},{"start":503.01,"end":503.23,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":524.591,"end":531.059,"text":"我剛才說台電現在沒有標準是這樣,那天也很多利潤期,利潤期也希望我們快點動作,因為現在開始蓋,我們其實看到這幾年,臺中火力發電廠已經減了600萬噸的燃煤量,我們如果新的機組起來我們會儘快減,只要調度可行我們一定馬上減。"},{"start":544.181,"end":544.361,"text":"請政政權委員執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時6分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請主計處、經濟部還有台電。"],["主席：好，主計處、經濟部還有台電。"],["顏委員寬恒：各位好。我先請教經濟部連次長，台電從2023年到明年總計已經取得5,000億的撥補，但是這個財務黑洞補不完，越補越大，經濟部也說明年還是會虧損，如果沒有撥補的話，虧損會更大，這次的追加預算撥補1,000億後，仍然會虧損566億，明年總預算再撥補1,000億，虧損大約會是在444億，這部分我想提醒經濟部還有台電，你們能不能精確地去控管成本？採購的部分，你們的材料是不是便宜？民間購電的部分，你們的成本有沒有辦法壓低？還有虧損的原因到底是什麼？能不能提早計算國際原物料成本？還有最重要的就是經營模式。其實這幾大點都攸關我們國人，因為民眾最關心的就是漲價，台電今年已經漲了兩次，明年電價會不會漲？這是一個問號，你這一邊漲電價，那一邊拿政府的預算撥補，這樣一邊漲價一邊拿百姓的納稅錢，這樣對嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，剛剛講的虧損566億，如果有1,000億撥補完之後，是可以盈餘434億，但是如果沒有這1,000億進來，是會虧損566億。還有台電的整個財務，我們現在已經答應年底會把財務報告送到大院。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，預算是人民的錢，現在你用撥補1,000億，明年又1,000億，這些錢都是我們的納稅錢，台電漲人民的電價，你漲了電價又要撥補，你乾脆不要漲電價，直接撥補就好了嘛！直接把你的虧損由政府的預算來撥補，這樣不就好了嗎？對不對？你兩手策略，這一邊漲電價，這一邊又撥補，你又不是電價漲了就不用撥補了，漲了電價之後，把這些虧損都直接體現在電價上面就好了嘛！但不是，你是這邊漲價，那邊撥補，我認為不能這樣做啦！","另外，我請教主計長，預算中心提到這一次追加1,000億撥補台電，是因為國際原物料成本上漲，還有就是穩定物價、照顧民生、弱勢等等，所以吸收用電成本所需的經費來追加預算。既然政府編了1,000億來補助，那你能不能現在就告訴我們說明年絕對不會漲價？可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，漲價不漲價要由電價委員會去做決定，這個部分，譬如說台電吸收民生物價的部分就有2,800億，這2,800億它都沒有漲，因為民生電費是沒有漲的；至於產業的部分，它吸收4,000億，這兩年它就吸收六千八百多億，所以它虧損四千多億。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，所以我的意思是，你這邊漲電價就漲足嘛！你漲足就不用撥補了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是民生電價的部分是不漲的部分，所以這個部分就變成它要吸收。"],["顏委員寬恒：那就告訴民眾說到底我們電價應該多少錢才算合理啊！你現在用這些補，你不得罪我，然後你那邊又拿政府的預算、拿我們的納稅錢來補……"],["陳主計長淑姿：它現在每度電就虧1塊錢。"],["顏委員寬恒：虧多少是你們講的嘛！你們用成本貴的電，然後政府再拿民眾的納稅錢，這邊要掏腰包來付漲出來的電費，那邊又拿我們的稅款、我們繳稅的錢來補貼，對不對？這樣不是一樣，你們就是兩套手法嘛，對不對？我跟你講，其實台電要怎麼樣去控管成本，這是你們的專業，我們要的就是，第一個，電要夠用，電要盡可能地便宜，這就是我們民眾要的。另外，你漲的部分，你現在撥補這1,000億，明年再1,000億，你又不能告訴我們說明年不漲價，不然要撥補多少才可以不漲價，可不可以告訴我們？要補多少啦？明年預算要編多少才可以不要漲價？"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個是電價審議委員會根據當年或是前一年的燃料還有國際情勢去做分析評估的。"],["顏委員寬恒：那你能不能預期先告訴我們，讓我們有個心理準備啊！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我是台電董事長，我們每次去電價委員會審查的時候，政府有沒有補助都會是委員會審查的重要考量，包含這一次今年度的民生都沒有漲，也是因為政府有編了這1,000億的預算，所以民生部分今年沒有做調整，所以立法院通過這筆預算絕對會是電價審議委員會重要的考量根據。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我可以預期說，每一年撥補的金額會不斷地上漲，為了不讓電價調漲，是不是這樣子？"],["曾董事長文生：其實是這樣子，委員，我這樣跟您說明……"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，你就承諾，不然就請次長跟董事長你們來承諾，為了要抑制電價上漲，拜託中央政府的預算每一年撥補到讓台電不漲電價。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，這個可能也沒辦法這樣運作，因為審議委員會不會同意我們這樣子，我真的是要跟您報告，因為電價的調整會跟著國際價格有一些波動，這個是一定有的，不要讓它劇烈波動就是政府補貼的重要原因，我想這一點要請委員體諒。"],["顏委員寬恒：電價，明年不能再漲，這是第一個，你們今年撥補的部分，其實到明年底已經超過5,000億了……"],["曾董事長文生：還有2,000億沒確定……"],["顏委員寬恒：這個部分，我跟你講……"],["曾董事長文生：這2,000億正在審。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我要告訴你們，對於電價的上漲還有政府的撥補我們都非常有意見，也不能接受。","另外就是臺中的火力發電廠，中火原來答應民眾了，建一座、拆一座，然後增燃氣、減燃煤，無煤的趨勢是世界趨勢，但是我們知道那天臺中環評委員會審查會，民眾也到現場來抗議，他們就是希望政府履行承諾，增燃氣、減燃煤，要把退役的燃煤拆除，但是政府……"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，我知道委員很關心這件事情，我簡單跟委員報告一下，我們加速蓋燃氣就是要提早無煤，燃煤機組是放在那邊做緊急備用……"],["顏委員寬恒：對嘛，現在就是……"],["曾董事長文生：我們就是為了……"],["顏委員寬恒：緊急使用會變成常態化嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：不會。"],["顏委員寬恒：不會？"],["曾董事長文生：絕對不會，我跟你保證。"],["顏委員寬恒：你保證？"],["曾董事長文生：絕對不會，不可能把它常態化，光是緊急機組一年限制發電時間就只有720小時，而且台電至今為止也都沒有用超過100個小時，所以這個一定要跟您報告，不會這樣子的，真的不會這樣。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，要履行政府的承諾啦，增燃氣、減燃煤，那些燃煤的機組……"],["曾董事長文生：是，我們現在就在做這件事。"],["顏委員寬恒：這是地方的心聲，也是中部人的心聲。"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，我們趕快把燃氣的機組做一做，接著就把燃煤停下來，簡單來說，現在台電的目標就是這樣，那天有很多里長去，里長也希望我們趕快開始動作，從現在開始改，其實看到這幾年，台中火力發電廠已經減了600萬噸的燃煤量，如果新的機組起來，我們會儘快減，只要調度可行，我們一定馬上減，這個要跟委員拜託，請你支持。"],["顏委員寬恒：承諾就是要算數、要做到，這樣好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：是啊，我們一定是這樣子的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝寬恒委員。","接著請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}