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售店收入的千分之十這是確定的"},{"start":249.158,"end":272.311,"text":"他沒有任何模糊空間後面反而是因為他們當時候報給黃平小組委員會的時候他們報的金額就已經低報了所以他自己寫個約可是我們看的是前面你增加上去是不是應該就要實質你去看我們所有的回饋辦法你看我們所有廠商對政府的回饋辦法"},{"start":279.005,"end":295.371,"text":"他看的是前面然後他多少的一個收入就要做多少的回饋拜託我們政府不要再替他講話了所有的人民眼睛都在看從去年講到現在置之不理他有溝通什麼嗎 沒有好署長他的惡質在哪裡再來"},{"start":307.208,"end":334.722,"text":"請問這也是我一直質疑的第二期工程他沿用一起管線在環評的時候現在我們調出來爭霸根本完全沒有提供在過去一起管線他的安全性還有現在甚至是未來還要再沿用50年沒有環評裡面沒有結果我們委員會也是可以眼睛閉著就給他通過了我不知道他怎麼有那麼大的能耐"},{"start":336.055,"end":354.707,"text":"我需要我要求人民一個安全的管線人民一個安全的生活空間結果居然是要你們經濟部能源署去要求申報趕快去做事後現在的管線檢測你們現在不是就在做事後的管線檢測嗎"},{"start":360.339,"end":386.809,"text":"發言委員這個管測的檢測工作已經在今年完成那 完成什麼所以嘛本來在環評的時候就要完成的就要提供給環評的結果沒有我們把這件事情爆發之後爆發之後要求你們甚至在去年署長你還記不記得我還特別在審你們的預算的時候做了一個附帶決議"},{"start":391.059,"end":412.869,"text":"請問那個附帶決議飛到哪裡去了附帶決議裡面有兩項工作一個就是要做確保這個安全所以我們有要求申辦要做安全的管測的檢測那檢測結果出來了那也為請公園院做第三方認證認證的結果要怎麼認證官官相問要怎麼認證誰能夠相信在這地底下的"},{"start":413.729,"end":427.39,"text":"安全性然後他本來一起你跟地方講的他是只有要用到一起50年而已你現在跟地方說沒有連二期都要繼續沿用請問在這之前他有辦過說明會嗎沒有欸"},{"start":429.833,"end":432.796,"text":"沒有耶!沒有耶!在之前都沒辦過說明會!那是什麼說明會你知道嗎?那說明會我在現場你知道7月份的說明會是什麼嗎?是什麼嗎?沒有!沒有署長我當下!"},{"start":449.941,"end":458.895,"text":"開完會我馬上就打電話給你我說你他在辦什麼說明會說明會都沒有往後的檢測都講說沒有問題我們沒有問題"},{"start":461.365,"end":482.158,"text":"人民是要聽這些嗎?你明明跟地方說一期只能用50年當時候跟地方是這麼講結果現在二期要沿用一期你沒有跟地方說明之前沒有之前都沒有欸是我們要求之後才7月份去開的那一場結果那一場是什麼會?"},{"start":483.404,"end":483.524,"text":"請問那個公開有什麼用?"},{"start":502.6,"end":503.522,"text":"請問公開那個有什麼用?整個程序都違反了!你鬥著走!"},{"start":516.567,"end":516.747,"text":"第三點"},{"start":546.26,"end":565.361,"text":"我去年就跟你們說這個電業法裡面規定回饋金30%這個專案型電協金是由年度電協金的30%這個是由業者親自來做一個管控對不對"},{"start":569.473,"end":584.96,"text":"電協金裡面70%給地方政府那個是定額的回饋那另外30%是要組一個委員會來不要再騙人了啦什麼叫委員會是業者去找的你們裡面"},{"start":586.884,"end":605.879,"text":"完全開放根本裡面講到你說嘛第5條我寫得很清楚嘛你自己看嘛這裡面有寫什麼結果我如果沒有追喔去年我如果沒有追喔你知道這30%是要給誰就給業者可以專案使用喔他就變成小金庫喔這個小金庫變成他在打擊一級的小金庫"},{"start":609.662,"end":632.626,"text":"根本不知道 這個專案型的裡面我們會要求他有一個審議委員會什麼叫審議委員會審議委員會裡面的成員就包括我們地方政府什麼叫審議委員會 這也是他們找的啊沒有 就包括地方政府是他們找的啊在去年我就叫你們要重新修改然後重新調整甚至要把所有的問題點出來到底這個專案型電協計要怎麼處理到現在到現在一年了"},{"start":639.639,"end":658.649,"text":"去年審預算的時候到今年現在也要審預算了你把我們當成什麼我們的監督是什麼然後申辦就一直在打我們的臉審議委員會9位成員裡面市府兩位然後由大學來推薦5位教授"},{"start":660.369,"end":678.553,"text":"誰能夠去把握說這個推薦到底是什麼處理我叫你們要把所有的制度弄出來也沒有從去年到現在都沒有都沒有然後申辦一直在做這個某人小金庫的處理我告訴你我告訴你他把地方當什麼他把地方當什麼"},{"start":690.563,"end":711.997,"text":"處長我們從去年到現在我今天跟你講今天剛好是因為要審預算的專案的一個業務報告對不對針對預算的剛好去年到現在剛好一年剛好一年你們做了什麼我這些問題都是當時候就提了你又叫我怎麼通過你們的預算"},{"start":717.389,"end":726.415,"text":"我怎麼通過你們的預算?我怎麼通過你們的預算?沒有啊!你的說明會根本就是敷衍的!你就是敷衍的!你完全就是敷衍的!你知道你們當時候的說明會我馬上就打給你的嘛!"},{"start":734.967,"end":736.648,"text":"一年前跟一年後所有的問題都一樣沒有改變"},{"start":765.041,"end":765.182,"text":"陳委員辦公室說明"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時21分）謝謝召委，請部長還有能源署署長。"],["主席：請郭部長、能源署署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，因為我去年開始在追這個案子的時候，你還沒上任，當時候是王美花部長，所以我想這個案子署長會比較了解。我從去年追到現在，完全沒有任何的下落，然後就任憑森霸不斷地放話。來，署長，21.6億的回饋金，森霸欠我們臺南的什麼時候要還？什麼時候要還我們？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，有關森霸回饋金一期的部分，我們現在已經要求森霸的董事長要跟在地的區長跟里長去做充分溝通。"],["陳委員亭妃：不用溝通啊，這已經是事實了，要溝通什麼？這是事實了，是你要怎麼還這一筆錢給地方，這才是最重要的，請問要溝通什麼？在我們的資料裡面、環評裡面已經很清楚寫到，當時它的回饋金是「售電收入」，這四個字白紙黑字大家看得很清楚，我們大家都讀過書，應該都很清楚什麼叫「售電收入」，售電收入不是扣除成本喔！"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，就是說它的……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是喔！售電收入10‰，這個很清楚。"],["游署長振偉：對，所以後面還有一個每年的回饋金約3,000萬到5,000萬……"],["陳委員亭妃：那個是當時候他們報的，沒有，署長，你看你就要替他們講話了。"],["游署長振偉：沒有、沒有，不是幫他們講話。"],["陳委員亭妃：後面這個所謂的金額3,000萬到5,000萬，你有沒有看到前提？當時候它報給上面的是說，它的售電收入只有那些錢，可是沒有想到原來它的售電收入是增加了好幾倍、好幾倍、好幾十倍，所以前提是售電收入的10‰，所以每年約3,000萬到5,000萬，這個是當時候它給予中央的所有訊息，是只有那些錢而已，結果沒有想到我們整個售電是往上飆升的，你往上飆升之後，當然要增加上去啊，所以它為什麼要寫一個約？約就是未定嘛，未定啊！"],["游署長振偉：所以跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：它當時候所提的，它預估森霸一期每年大概就是這些收入，所以才會有所謂的約，結果沒有想到是往上飆升，往上飆升之後，是不是就應該要回饋給民眾？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這個文字……"],["陳委員亭妃：這就是這樣嘛，因為你每年的計價，每年的售電，你都會有不一樣的估價跟售電的狀況，那你就應該要加上去回饋給地方，是不是？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這個案子它是在環評目前的回饋計畫裡面。"],["陳委員亭妃：環評的回饋裡面寫得很清楚嘛！「售電收入千分之十」這一句話是固定的、是確定的。"],["游署長振偉：對，白紙黑字寫在那邊，那後面……"],["陳委員亭妃：後面是「約」，你看喔！他寫說「每年回饋金金額約」，為什麼要一個「約」？因為當時候報給他們的，就是大概是這樣的數字，可是當我們電費上去之後是不是要增加？是不是要增加？"],["游署長振偉：根據他們環評的目前回饋……"],["陳委員亭妃：是不是要增加？"],["游署長振偉：如果按照百分之十計算，當然有一個收入……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然啊！售電收入的千分之十這是確定的，它沒有任何模糊空間，後面反而是因為他們當時候報給環評小組委員會的時候，他們報的金額就已經低報了，所以他自己寫一個「約」，可是我們看的是前面耶！你增加上去是不是應該就要實質……你去看我們所有的回饋辦法，你看我們所有廠商對政府的回饋辦法，看的是前面，然後他多少的一個收入就要做多少的回饋，拜託我們政府不要再替他講話了，所有人民的眼睛都在看，從去年講到現在，置之不理，他有溝通什麼嗎？沒有！署長，他的惡質在哪裡？","再來，這也是我一直質疑的，第二期工程他沿用一期管線，在環評的時候，現在我們調出來，森霸根本完全沒有提供過去一期管線它的安全性，還有現在甚至是未來還要再沿用50年，沒有！環評裡面沒有，結果我們委員會也是可以眼睛閉著就給他通過了，我不知道他怎麼有那麼大的能耐，我要求給人民一個安全的管線，給人民一個安全的生活空間，結果居然是要你們經濟部能源署去要求森霸趕快去做事後、現在的管線檢測，你們現在不是都在做事後的管線檢測嗎？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，這個管測的檢測工作已經在今年完成，那……"],["陳委員亭妃：完成什麼？所以嘛！本來在環評的時候就要完成的，就要提供給環評的，結果沒有，我們把這件事情爆發之後，爆發之後要求你們……甚至在去年，署長，你還記不記得？我還特別在審你們預算的時候，做了一個附帶決議，對不對？請問那個附帶決議飛到哪裡去了？"],["游署長振偉：附帶決議裡面有兩項工作，一個是要確保這個安全，所以我們有要求森霸要做安全的管測的檢測，那檢測結果出來了，也委請工研院做第三方認證，認證的結果……"],["陳委員亭妃：要怎麼認證？官官相護要怎麼認證？誰能夠相信在這地底下的安全性？然後，本來一期你跟地方講的，他是只有要用到一期50年而已，你現在跟地方說沒有，連二期都要繼續沿用，請問在這之前他有辦過說明會嗎？沒有耶！沒有耶！"],["游署長振偉：所以說明會在委員的……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有耶！在之前都沒辦過說明會。"],["游署長振偉：之後我們在7月份有辦了一場說明會。"],["陳委員亭妃：那是什麼說明會你知道嗎？"],["游署長振偉：7月辦了一場說明會。"],["陳委員亭妃：那說明會我在現場，你知道7月份的說明會是什麼嗎？"],["游署長振偉：就針對這整個現場的……"],["陳委員亭妃：是什麼嗎？沒有！沒有！署長，我當下開完會，我馬上就打電話給你，我說他在辦什麼說明會，說明會都沒有提往後的檢測，都講說沒有問題、他們沒有問題，人民是要聽這些嗎？你明明跟地方說，一期只能用50年，當時候跟地方是這麼講，結果現在二期要沿用一期，你沒有跟地方說明，之前沒有，之前都沒有耶！是我們要求之後才7月份去開那一場，結果那一場是什麼會？是一個過水的，我不能接受這種過水的，他在應付誰？他要應付誰？應付你們嗎？還是應付我？陳亭妃沒有那麼好應付啦！"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，現在所有管線的檢測資料，我們都公開在該公司的網站上面讓大家了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：請問那個公開有什麼用？"],["游署長振偉：讓大家都了解……"],["陳委員亭妃：那個公開有什麼用？你整個程序都違反了！整個程序都違反了！整個程序都違反了！請問公開那個有什麼用？整個程序都違反了！你倒著走，你明明在二期要沿用一期管線的時候，你就要跟人民報告，你就要有這些檢測報告，結果你全部倒著走，然後全部都通過了，逼著人民要去接受，逼著人民要去承擔這個風險，請問為什麼？為什麼？錢他在賺耶！人民要承受這樣的痛苦、這樣的安全危機，為什麼？為什麼？","再來，第三點，我去年就跟你們說電業法裡面規定回饋金百分之三十，這個專案型電協金是年度電協金的百分之三十，這個是由業者親自來管控，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，電協金裡面百分之七十給地方政府，那個是定額的回饋，另外百分之三十是要組一個委員會來審查到底給誰來使用。"],["陳委員亭妃：不要再騙人了啦！什麼叫委員會？是業者去找的，你們裡面完全開放……"],["游署長振偉：沒有，跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：你說嘛！第五條寫得很清楚，你自己看嘛！這裡面有寫什麼？我如果沒有追，去年我如果沒有追，你知道這百分之三十是要給誰？就給業者可以專案使用喔！他就變成小金庫喔！這個小金庫變成他打擊異己的小金庫。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這個專案型的裡面，我們會要求他有一個審議委員會，那……"],["陳委員亭妃：什麼叫審議委員會？"],["游署長振偉：委員會裡面的成員就包括我們地方政府……"],["陳委員亭妃：什麼叫審議委員會？這也是他們找的啊！"],["游署長振偉：沒有，就包括地方政府，像從以前的案子來看，臺南市政府派2位。"],["陳委員亭妃：就他們找的啊！在去年我就叫你們要重新修改，然後重新調整，甚至要把所有的問題點出來，到底這個專案型電協金要怎麼處理，到現在一年了，去年審預算的時候到今年，現在也要審預算了，你把我們當成什麼？我們的監督是什麼？然後森霸就一直在打我們的臉。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，審議委員會9位成員裡面，市府2位，然後由大學來推薦5位教授，他們森霸……"],["陳委員亭妃：誰能夠去把握說這個推薦到底是怎麼處理，我叫你們要把所有的制度弄出來也沒有，從去年到現在都沒有，都沒有！然後森霸一直在做這個小金庫的處理，我告訴你，他把地方當什麼？他把地方當什麼？他把地方當什麼？"],["游署長振偉：針對這個專案型的……"],["陳委員亭妃：署長！"],["游署長振偉：我們一定是公開透明的監督。"],["陳委員亭妃：署長！"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們從去年到現在，我今天跟你講，今天剛好是因為要審預算的一個業務報告，對不對？針對預算的，剛好去年到現在剛好一年，剛好一年！你們做了什麼？我這些問題都是當時候就提了，你要叫我怎麼通過你們的預算？我要怎麼通過你們的預算？我要怎麼通過你們的預算？"],["游署長振偉：委員要求的包括辦說明會、檢查，然後……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啊！你的說明會根本就是敷衍的，你就是敷衍的……"],["主席：請署長到我們陳委員辦公室去說明好不好？"],["陳委員亭妃：你完全就是敷衍的，你知道你們當時的說明會，我馬上就打給你了嘛！他以為是過水的嗎？這是什麼過水？地方反彈聲一堆，當時開這個說明會的時候，再跟你報告，開說明會的時候，所有地方反彈聲非常大，你有沒有聽到？他有跟你報告嗎？"],["游署長振偉：委員要求之後……"],["陳委員亭妃：反彈聲很大啊！"],["游署長振偉：我們要求他們檢測報告就公開上網路，直接公開。"],["陳委員亭妃：反彈聲很大啊！署長，一年前跟一年後，所有的問題都一樣，沒有改變，你們的預算要怎麼過嘛？"],["主席：署長，再去陳委員辦公室說明。","在賴士葆委員質詢完畢，我們休息。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","林月琴","蔡易餘","黃國昌","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","何欣純","葉元之","林倩綺","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}