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到齊了人家另外一個以前的委員陳嘉華都說合約已經到齊啦"},{"start":350.846,"end":354.474,"text":"那個合約要到明年才會到期明年才會到期"},{"start":355.117,"end":355.757,"text":"報告委員 這個違約的話經濟部要賠償這個錢"},{"start":384.997,"end":405.363,"text":"陪葬陪葬這些你推給立法院的陪葬什麼錢推給立法院呢是是謝謝委員知道不是如果我們做了你們不執行那立法院幹什麼立法院可以關掉了立法院可以關掉了你這個引起憲政上的危機喔你等於替卓榮泰又來一個"},{"start":406.769,"end":408.389,"text":"媒體聯合報這麼大篇你準備怎麼做告訴我"},{"start":433.362,"end":460.063,"text":"什麼?依照合約處理啦我們立法院不要管喔我們會依照立法院的決議然後依照合約的程序來處理聽不懂啦立法院決議叫你停啦立法院決議叫你停啦合約有合約處理的一個步驟啦我們要依照合約的步驟來處理合約比較重要還是立法院決議比較重要?決議我們就是遵照立法院的決議然後再來處理合約的部分"},{"start":461.125,"end":478.732,"text":"河岳怎麼處理你問我你告訴我河岳他有一個處理的程序阿現在我們還在走這個程序但是我們就是遵照立法院的決議我現在拿到的文這是聯合報那邊給我的他是說"},{"start":480.052,"end":507.369,"text":"你們就是叫他要蓋然後向中央政府申請向這個環境部申請結果都被打回去了報告委員我想很多的事情是不是我們直接跟你報告因為透過媒體也許這裡面有失分的部分啦一個禮拜你來給我報告好不好第二件等一下等一下那我把這個問題講完喔剛才我在財務會那邊審查你的追加一千億台電的預算不長啊"},{"start":508.806,"end":515.879,"text":"我原來阿老實講我是中間偏支持阿可是上一次問你那句話我就不支持了"},{"start":516.516,"end":543.996,"text":"你居然跟我說 我問你說 如果一千億沒有給你呢 增資 你說就舉債 喔 多大聲的舉債 你說很有錢的舉債就好結果我還要查了一下 你們的台電的負債1.6兆喔 這個要付利息的喔另外 利息不算的2.5兆 總共4點多兆的負債資本額五千多億 累計虧損四千多億 每年獲得利息是兩百多億"},{"start":545.217,"end":564.551,"text":"你再借一千億 我問過財政部 你們借一千億 董事長可以講一千億利息多少 你告訴我 利息多少 你知道嗎 補償你才知道一千億的利息多少 看我的利率多少 台電嘛台電也可以從利率上面去寫幾%嘛 你跟我講幾% 差不多二三十億塊"},{"start":569.242,"end":583.175,"text":"財政部長跟我講啦 平均1.5% 你們大概1.4% 所以只有14億你想喔 大家各位 各位偉大的台灣人民聽喔財政 台電要1000億 私塾無名 他沒有窮盡一切茫茫之力"},{"start":588.88,"end":589.08,"text":"發言委員：賴士葆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":636,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時53分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。你進入公部門已經一段時間了，你原來是大老闆出身的，你對立法院的態度怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道、不太明白委員的垂詢是什麼意思。"],["賴委員士葆：我的意思是，立法院的決議，你要不要遵守？因為我們代表人民。立法院的決議，你要不要遵守？"],["郭部長智輝：立法院的決議，我要不要遵守？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["郭部長智輝：法令規定我要遵守，我就會遵守。"],["賴委員士葆：法律規定當然要遵守，怎麼不要遵守？不然我們做一大堆決議做假的啊？我現在就告訴你一件事情，立法院在4月30號通過要求彰濱工業區停建晶鼎焚化爐的決議案，這個你知道吧？你知道這件事吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：結果你們在10月25號居然發文給那些廠商，簡單來講，就是你們不喜歡這個決議，你們要廠商提出一個要繼續蓋的文，然後文送彰化縣政府、文送環境部，也就是說你們卸責，因為你們不願意跟立法院對撞，你們就說可以繼續進行。我們已經三讀通過，立法院主決議在院會三讀通過，我相信那天你可能也在，通過了，結果你們的產發署產業園區管理局居然發文給廠商，文都在這裡，白話文講的就是不要理立法院，他們就繼續蓋，但是不要跟你們申請，你們甩鍋給環境部，所以你們這裡有環境部跟彰化縣政府。你看右邊這個文，環境部說了：尚難適用興建焚化爐申請適用特種建築作業要點。你們甩給環境部，環境部不接，說這是你的事情，丟臉丟死了，部長，這個你可能都不知道，你們產發署長要換人了，產發署長要不要講一講，你怎麼發這個文？你怎麼發這個文？這個文就擺明了跟立法院的決議對幹耶！現在立法院跟行政院的關係已經夠緊張了，結果你經濟部帶頭起來，我們4月30號做了一個決議。這個是聯合報昨天出來很大篇的消息，而且把彰化都弄出來了。","我們再來看，彰化已經有9座焚化爐，而且林佳龍承諾不會再興建，鄭文燦也承諾不會再興建，那時候的林佳龍是總統府秘書長，那時候的鄭文燦是行政院副院長。兩大長官都承諾在彰化不要再蓋焚化爐，結果你們的文出來了，這是經濟部產業發展署科學園區管理局所發出來的。你看，底下就寫「並未載明由本局審查，顯然解讀有異」，簡單來講，就是立法院的決議像pass air一樣，不必理它，很可惡啊！部長，你知道這件事情嗎？這個文你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請他跟你報告一下，好嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：我先請教你，這個文你知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：文我不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！你可能被底下的人給你「創空」，你不知道啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不會啦，不會這樣子，我請他報告一下。"],["賴委員士葆：署長，你這個是怎麼樣？你是拿人家好處，是不是？硬要給它蓋，怎麼樣？來，署長講。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你可能誤會，我請他直接跟你報告。"],["賴委員士葆：好，來，你講。"],["楊局長伯耕：跟委員報告，第一個是它來申請特種建築物的部分，特種建築物部分的審查不在我們局裡面，所以我們才會行文給它……"],["賴委員士葆：我們立法院已經要求你們停了，你還審查什麼！"],["楊局長伯耕：不是，因為廠商有申請……"],["賴委員士葆：立法院已經決議停了，4月就決議了。"],["楊局長伯耕：不是，廠商有申請，所以我們一定要按照來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：10月份你還給它……"],["楊局長伯耕：第二個，委員有提到立法院決議的部分，我們也是查了，解約要把程序走完……"],["賴委員士葆：解約了，你們就是停。壞人給立法院做，你們該講的是根據立法院的決議，你們已經停了，沒有這個東西，而且合約也到期，對不對？合約到期了……"],["楊局長伯耕：跟委員報告，還沒有，還沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：合約到期了！以前的委員陳椒華就說合約已經到期了，你們還在講這個東西。"],["郭部長智輝：合約要到明年才會到期。"],["賴委員士葆：蛤？"],["郭部長智輝：明年才會到期。"],["賴委員士葆：陳椒華說合約已經到期了。好，即便沒有，我們已經要你們停了，你們就講一句話，壞人給立法院做，立法院經過正式的院會表決通過，停了，對不起，這個案子沒有了。你打回去就好了，結果你推給彰化縣政府，推給環境部，環境部打回來了，丟臉丟死了！丟臉丟死了！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，違約的話，經濟部要賠償這個錢。"],["賴委員士葆：賠償這個錢，你推給立法院，賠償什麼錢？推給立法院啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，如果我們做的，你們不執行，那立法院幹什麼？立法院可以關掉了，立法院可以關掉了，你這個引起憲政上的危機，你等於替卓榮泰又來一個炸彈一樣。現在兩院關係已經非常不好了，結果郭部長帶頭還放一個這麼大的砲，昨天聯合報好大一篇的篇幅報導出來，我看了嚇一跳，我今天趕快來問你，怎麼樣，你回答我你準備怎麼做？媒體聯合報這麼大一篇，你準備怎麼做？告訴我。"],["楊局長伯耕：我們還是要依約來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：依照合約處理。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們立法院不要管喔？"],["楊局長伯耕：沒有，我們會依照立法院的決議，然後依照合約的程序來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：聽不懂啦！立法院決議叫你停啊！"],["楊局長伯耕：是，因為合約有合約處理的步驟，我們要依照合約的步驟來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：合約比較重要還是立法院決議比較重要？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們就是遵照立法院的決議，然後再來處理合約的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：合約怎麼處理，你告訴我，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：合約有一個處理的程序，現在我們還在走這個程序，但是我們就是遵照立法院的決議……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在拿到的文，這是聯合報那邊給我的，它是說你們就是叫他要蓋，然後向彰化縣政府申請，向環境部申請，結果都被打回去啦！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想很多的事情是不是我們直接跟你報告？因為透過媒體也許這裡面有失真的部分啦！"],["賴委員士葆：好，一個禮拜以內給我報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會跟你報告。"],["賴委員士葆：好。我把這個問題講完，剛才我在財委會審查你的追加1,000億台電預算，部長，原來老實講我是中間偏支持，可是上一次問你那句話我就不支持了，我問你說如果1,000億沒有給你增資，你居然說就舉債，多大聲耶！舉債，你家很有錢耶，舉債就好，結果我查了一下，你們台電的負債1.6兆喔，這個要付利息的喔！另外，利息不算的2.5兆，總共四點多兆的負債，資本額五千多億，累積虧損四千多億，每年付的利息是兩百多億，你再借1,000億，我問過財政部，你們借1,000億，董事長可以講1,000億利息多少，你告訴我，利息多少？你知道嗎？部長你知道嗎？1,000億的利息多少？"],["郭部長智輝：看利率是多少。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，就台電嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：對，台電也可以從利率上面去協商。"],["賴委員士葆：幾%？你跟我講幾%。"],["郭部長智輝：差不多二、三十億。"],["賴委員士葆：不用這麼多啦，財政部長跟我講平均1.5%，你們大概1.4%，所以只有14億。你想喔，大家、各位偉大的臺灣人民聽喔，財政，台電要1,000億，師出無名，它沒有窮盡一切洪荒之力，怎麼樣cost down，比如說有核電，然後它就跟我們要1,000億，結果部長上個禮拜講：我去借啊！它的利息只要十幾億、14億，那你就去借啊。所以我原來傾向於支持你們的，現在我反對這項政治案，謝謝。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：繼續開會，請各位就座。","現在請陳培瑜、陳培瑜，陳培瑜委員不在。","請邱志偉召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","林月琴","蔡易餘","黃國昌","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","何欣純","葉元之","林倩綺","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}