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我想知道"},{"start":220.624,"end":234.517,"text":"有多少開源的計畫,你要多久補漲電價?你這樣的兩千億撥補進去,你可以撐多久?讓台灣的人民安心的至少在民生用電上面不調漲,一年還是兩年還是三年?"},{"start":236.5,"end":257.3,"text":"我原狀況是這個樣子就是說條不條長我真的不能夠台電董事長講這是第一個 第二個剛才您提到就是我們其實現在在縮短它中間的差額那這個差額的縮短其實另外一個部分就是我們當然講說我們希望能夠透過我們的那個再生能源能夠轉出去以後降低我們的"},{"start":258.021,"end":258.181,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":279.212,"end":303.596,"text":"貴來幾年還要面對每一年臺電希望來爭取撥補（補貼你們的虧損（有可能繼續發生（如果在不漲電價的狀況下（是嗎我覺得這一個（所以這兩千億不會是（結束這兩千億只是開始報告委員我其實現在沒有辦法非常肯定跟您說這一件事因為現在的國際燃料價格還是在戰前的大概1.6 1.7%"},{"start":306.857,"end":319.787,"text":"董事長,我們討論了半天,其實就在於回到這個,我們現在目前台電的發電量跟購電量是2400億度,但是火力發電目前占比是高達81.9"},{"start":322.689,"end":342.768,"text":"火力發電它其實就跟國際燃油價格包括國際的這些燃料價格的波動很影響很大所以重點是再生能源趕不上那接下去未來10年我想知道對於這些火力發電的發電量怎麼降低從哪邊補上看起來我們一直在問的是這個問題"},{"start":344.429,"end":366.778,"text":"如果要影響,不要影響那麼大,你的火力發電量現在可能勢必要往下降,你才有機會講到你剛剛講的填補這個虧損,否則只要他們一打仗,只要他們一發生這種狀況,現在每公噸是135塊美金,那疫情爆發之前大概只有80塊,所以接下去會不會漲,不知道,所以我的意思是很簡單,"},{"start":368.078,"end":388.648,"text":"立法院要知道兩千億是不是結束不是兩千億還會繼續增加更多的撥補還是你可以多久之內做到有可能至少告訴大家說在電價調漲跟撥補之間找到的平衡點我們需要多少時間其實我需要知道的是未來"},{"start":389.488,"end":407.603,"text":"董事長,我講得很清楚我們知道你的未來我才能知道今年這兩千億給了你將來是不是個無底洞還是永遠都要用這樣的方式所以你們大概可以給我們一個具體的說明跟對於這些的承諾不管是承諾好了至少你有一些具體的做法是吧"},{"start":410.623,"end":410.803,"text":"對,第一個就是"},{"start":423.868,"end":425.149,"text":"最後一個小問題就是上次講的我們光"},{"start":442.662,"end":470.779,"text":"運煤過來的製船費一年20億你們今天跟我說今年會改善因為我們的倉庫弄好了所以但是還要到4億我想問你接下去明年呢後年呢你可以做到比4億更少還是要到4億一年4億還是很多錢跟委員報告那個船期會有一些參差如果提早卸會有快一些的收入晚的話就會有製船費我們明年一定打平"},{"start":471.619,"end":500.076,"text":"希望打0這是你的承諾喔如果明年還有這筆再被審計處找出來那就董事長自己要負責任了是不能再有這種什麼因為沒有辦法卸貨而放在船上放20億我們撥補才1000億你就20億拿來浪費掉了是 明年如果沒做到董事長負責任今年的4億明年是0我們希望董事長說到做到是好 謝謝好 謝謝珊珊委員接著請李坤城委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時55分）謝謝主席，我想請董事長跟次長。"],["主席：董事長，還有我們次長。"],["曾董事長文生：委員早。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，兩位好。我想今天針對台電的追加預算，還有明年所謂1,000億元的公務預算撥補，這兩筆錢都是要填補前幾年的虧損是嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它是過去的錢？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以其實昨天董事長來拜會的時候，我也問過一句非常簡單的話：這樣的填補還要多久？還要多少？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：這2,000億元是過去，現在我關心的是未來。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，簡單第一個狀況是這樣子，就是我們今年度的狀況其實虧損就是已經縮小，今年，如果以2024年單年來算已經縮小。"],["黃委員珊珊：今年縮小到多少？講數字吧！我們不要再講空話了。"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在估算到年底，預計的虧損可能是550億到600億之間。"],["黃委員珊珊：600億，所以比1,000億少了，所以明年1,000億撥補是回補以前，所以我們接下去每年還要撥補500億到600億嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在在做幾個事情，第一個，當然就是減少支出的部分，我們因為要支持國內綠能建設的發展，然後讓民間能夠買到綠電，所以台電有提出一些躉購，我們自己買的躉購的再生能源，我們希望透過電力交易市場能夠逐步地轉出去給企業，這個可以降低我們的營運成本。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，董事長，講簡單的啦！就是你不是開源，就是節流。"],["曾董事長文生：這節流，這是算節流。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是節流而已，那開源的部分呢？我們台電有什麼開源的計畫？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，台電如果要開源，只剩下少數就是非營業不動產的聯合開發，以台電來講，過去幾年，我們累積下來……"],["黃委員珊珊：不容易。"],["曾董事長文生：過去3年，其實台電大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：是法令的限制，還是你沒有辦法做，還是法規上面就做不到？我們講資產活化，任何公家機關都一樣，法規有沒有限制，沒有限制的話，你能不能夠有資產活化的機會？我只關心未來，臺灣的政府如果還要繼續每年撥補500到600億，我們有多少的時間可以去消化這些虧損？否則你是不是又要漲電價？我現在只關心的是你500億到600億，你多久之後又要漲電價？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告幾個事情，第一個事情是我們資產活化的部分，過去2022、2023這幾年，累積起來大概一年90億。"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在看到的是你們有在努力啦！但是效益很低，也很少。"],["曾董事長文生：我們非營業的空間其實沒那麼多啦！但是一年大概折現起來，算起來一年的營收也有八、九十億，包括我們海外的投資等等。"],["黃委員珊珊：八、九十億跟五、六百億還是差很多啊！所以次長，我的立場很簡單，第一，這填補以前的，但是我們要關心的是你未來的計畫，未來有多少可能可以去填補，昨天董事長也跟我說，現在工業用電的幾乎大概價差已經很低了，跟成本差不多，大概目前台電虧損的來源主要是因為民生用電的差額，這個差額看起來你不漲電價就只能開源，對我來說，我想知道你有多少開源的計畫，你要多久不漲電價，你這樣2,000億元撥補進去，你可以撐多久？讓臺灣的人民安心，至少在民生用電上面不調漲，1年，還是2年，還是3年？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，狀況是這個樣子，就是調不調漲真的不能夠由我台電董事長講，這是第一個。"],["黃委員珊珊：盡力啦！"],["曾董事長文生：第二個，剛才您提到的，就是我們其實現在在縮短它中間的差距。"],["黃委員珊珊：差額。"],["曾董事長文生：這個的差額的縮短，其實另外一個部分就是我們剛剛講，我們希望能夠透過我們的再生能源，能夠轉出去以後，降低我們的成本，再進一步降低，另外是業外收益，不過，我還是要說，以台電現在的狀況，我們一年要創造額外的500億盈餘……"],["黃委員珊珊：很困難。"],["曾董事長文生：來補自己、來補貼民生，這個真的是有一定程度的困難……"],["黃委員珊珊：有困難……"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得不是那麼……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們可能未來幾年還要面對每一年台電希望來爭取撥補以補貼你們的虧損，有可能繼續發生，如果在不漲電價的狀況下，是嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得這一個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這2,000億不會是結束，這2,000億只是開始。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我其實現在沒有辦法非常肯定地跟您說這一件事，因為現在的國際燃料價格還是在戰前的大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！"],["曾董事長文生：1.6、1.7倍。"],["黃委員珊珊：董事長，我們討論了半天，其實就是要回到這個，目前台電的發電量跟購電量是2,400億度，但是火力發電目前的占比是高達81.9%，火力發電其實就跟國際原油價格包括國際這些燃料價格的波動影響很大，所以重點是再生能源趕不上，那接下來的未來十年，我想知道對於這些火力發電的發電量怎麼降低，從哪邊補上，看起來我們一直在問的是這個問題。如果不要影響那麼大，你的火力發電量現在勢必要往下降，才有機會講到你剛剛說的填補這個虧損，否則只要他們一打仗、只要他們一發生狀況，現在每公噸是135塊美金，疫情爆發之前大概只有80塊，所以接下來會不會漲？不知道。","因此我的意思很簡單，立法院要知道2,000億是不是結束，不是！還會繼續增加更多的撥補，還是你多久之內有可能做到，至少告訴大家在電價調漲跟撥補之間找到個平衡點你們需要多少時間？其實我需要知道的是未來，董事長，我講得很清楚，知道你們的未來，我才能知道今年這2,000億給了你們，將來是不是個無底洞，還是永遠都要用這樣的方式？所以你們大概可以給我們一個具體的說明跟對於這些的承諾，不管是不是承諾好了，至少你有一些具體的作法，是吧？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，關於這個部分，當然我們的財務改善計畫現在都在擬，其實它就這幾塊……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，不是賺錢就是節省嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：對，它第一個參數是電價，第二個參數是不同發電類別的成本，那你怎麼樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以董事長，我需要的是……"],["曾董事長文生：成本比較高的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果你要再爭取這筆預算到明年的公務預算，都要把這些東西很清楚地向立法院說明。"],["曾董事長文生：好，這個我會處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個小問題，就是上次講的，我們光運煤過來的滯船費是一年20億，你們跟我說今年會改善，因為倉庫弄好了，但是還要到4億，我想問你，接下來明年呢？後年呢？"],["曾董事長文生：我們明年……"],["黃委員珊珊：你可以做到比4億更少，還是要到4億？一年4億還是很多錢啊！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，那個船期會有一些參差，如果提早卸會有快卸的收入，晚的話就會有滯船費，我們明年一定打平。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望打平，這是你的承諾，如果明年還有這筆再被審計找出來，那就是董事長自己要負責任喔！"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能再有什麼因為沒有辦法卸貨而放在船上，花20億，我們撥補才1,000億，就有20億拿來浪費掉了，好嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：是，明年如果沒做到，董事長負責。"],["黃委員珊珊：今年的4億，明年是零，我們希望董事長說到做到。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝珊珊委員。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}