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Kacaw委員：（11時2分）主席、各位委員。有請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：秘書長好。這段時間在野黨都會關心年金改革，年金改革已經實施，從106年嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：107年上路。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：法律通過是106年嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：106年修法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以已經實施這麼長的時間，各方面的狀況也與以往都不一樣，你當時在哪個職務我忘了，就是說立法院三讀通過的公務人員、教師的資遣撫卹這些法律，退休資遣撫卹法這些法律，你瞭不瞭解當初立法院三讀通過的版本？"],["劉秘書長建忻：大致瞭解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是誰的版本？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該算立法院的版本。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，是段宜康委員的版本。"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，你先聽我講，因為我在場，第9屆我在場，我也在司法及法制委員會參加審查，一直到院會。當時總統府請了副總統，召集了考試院、行政院，包括專家學者，討論出一個版本送到立法院，這畢竟是一個跨部會、跨院，然後有專家學者，以總統府的高度所送出來的版本，但是第9屆那個年代是一個殺氣騰騰的年代，對軍公教、警消，所以通過的版本是段宜康的版本，這是一個事實，在這樣的一個過程當中，實施這麼多年之後是該檢討了。好，這裡有沒有常務次長？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們有考試院所屬部會，您是說常務次長？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，沒關係。秘書長，一個常務次長，早期是25年就可以退休嘛！然後就退休了，也沒有信賴保護啊！溯及既往啊！那些都沒有了，都不見了。你認為一個25年就退休的常務次長，14職等，你認為他每個月的退休金、退休俸，多少才是可以讓他好好地生活？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我請施部長來說明。"],["施部長能傑：其實我們在討論退休金應該是兩個概念去看，一個是制度面的設計，一個是根據這個制度面實際會拿到多少錢，我想是這樣的設計。至於實際拿到多少錢才足夠一個人的退休生活，這個真的也是滿……每個人有不太一樣的概念啦！"],["鄭天財Sra 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