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tart":261.275,"end":263.637,"text":"每年支付利息多少?每一度的發電成本裡面,你的利息支出大概是佔多少?"},{"start":283.12,"end":304.867,"text":"零點是蠻低的啦因為你處理2500億度嘛我看了一份資料我不知道對不對啦他說你們這個每一度的發電成本裡面大概50%就是你們自己發電的電力的成本那大概有15%是去購買外部電力的成本但是利息也佔了13%"},{"start":307.16,"end":318.602,"text":"律師沒有13%沒關係那你就是給我一份資料每一度的這個發電的成本每一度的發電成本應該是這樣子因為300億我有2500億度應該是大概1.2%左右多少應該因為我2500億度那大概一度電佔0.012元"},{"start":337.029,"end":347.111,"text":"所以佔的比例是多少?每度成本是佔多少?3.5%我這邊的資料到113年9月的時候每度成本是3.63利息支出是0.12佔的比例大概是3.4%左右"},{"start":358.894,"end":381.939,"text":"一年一二四每度電的成本對每度都是講每度電的成本那我就問你了每度的成本齁這個是3.63那我們現在這個每度的這個民生電價成本是多少3.73.7多3.7多那這個那現在下一度是多少勒現在是我們均價是2.7多2.7多"},{"start":383.598,"end":384.299,"text":"明年還要再編一千億?"},{"start":399.554,"end":415.568,"text":"其實最主要是我們過去今年在內其實2022跟2023臺電在民生這個部分吸收的成本就是各一千億就是我們有吸收嘛因為你每一度發電的成本跟每一度這個民生電價的成本就是差一塊錢嘛是"},{"start":416.949,"end":437.25,"text":"對阿,那為了就要穩定物價,然後讓這個民生覺得說這個我們的電價不會太貴,那所以呢我們是漲供應用電漲比較多,民生我們就是先緩著,我們就吸收每一度電就吸收一塊錢,那這也是為什麼其實前兩年更高今年一塊錢,前兩年平均成本還更高一點"},{"start":439.152,"end":462.167,"text":"為什麼今天要有這筆追加預算明年還要再編一千億的公務預算在這裡面那我再請教一下昨天院長他跟工商協定會有一個早餐會他提到說新核能是持開放態度董事長知道這句話的含義是什麼嗎?"},{"start":464.224,"end":465.204,"text":"我聚焦在合適好了啦合適這個我也問過這個院長"},{"start":494.051,"end":521.343,"text":"就是2025年非核家園這個是定在這個法律裡面的那這個核四現在公投也沒有通過重啟使用的公投也沒有通過那所以說現在核四這個核去核從因為也有很多在地的居民希望就是說他本來是核電廠的用地那是不是能夠變更他的這個地目使用還地於民那但是現在"},{"start":522.583,"end":535.697,"text":"我發現說台電的態度好像還不是很確定未來合適這塊地要怎麼去做使用那個跟委員報告就是說你現在看到這已經都是繼承已經有利用的這些電力設備"},{"start":536.886,"end":537.086,"text":"﹚李坤城﹚"},{"start":566.966,"end":590.884,"text":"河島區的要利用事實上是相對來講不是那麼容易,但是後段的發電設備做其他的利用是有機會的。但是不是拿來發電,他不是拿來發電,他要拿來做電壓穩定等等的一些相關工作。好,那所以未來沒有核四了,也不會用核能發電了,就是在這個貢寮這個核四廠上面不會用核能發電了,對不對?"},{"start":594.141,"end":603.828,"text":"現在的狀況就是我們現在法令上面也沒有這個空間所以我是說你們要提出一個計畫就是說這個核電廠的設備在那邊"},{"start":610.313,"end":628.286,"text":" 你要去做什麼樣的 有哪一些你可以去做使用 你說什麼穩定電壓或是做什麼樣的使用 那有一些已經沒有使用的 那你要去做拆除或是做其他怎麼樣 因為這個都還是列在你們的這個資產裡面 每年裡面有多邊境費 在做這個資產的維護"},{"start":630.954,"end":656.027,"text":"所以說你們應該要提出一個計劃沒有用的看要怎麼去拆除隨時設備看是怎麼去用部長是說什麼設備的使用效益要極大化這個是一個比較大的範圍跟一個說法其實你們應該要有比較更具體的計劃未來這個不做核能發電使用這塊地要怎麼去做處理"},{"start":657.759,"end":658.439,"text":"我們一直都在做這種新的轉型計畫的規劃,我們會持續來辦。"},{"start":686.07,"end":690.499,"text":"謝謝坤城委員主席在這裡宣告我們休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我們請台電董事長還有財政部長。"],["主席：好，台電董事長還有財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好、董事長好。今天在談台電追加預算1,000億，基本上，上次我們也有詢問過院長，包含部長、主計長都在，其實都問過了，現在是交由財政跟經濟一起來做審查。不過我認為，我剛剛聽了很多在野黨委員的意見，大概他們對於這1,000億有很大的意見，我是認為董事長今天應該要找陳傑憲過來，你要拜託他過來，現在他是臺灣英雄，我們臺灣隊的隊長，過去他也在台電的棒球隊打過球，打過4年，所以你今天為了讓追加預算能夠順利通過，真的你應該要拜託一下臺灣隊長陳傑憲來這邊跟所有的委員，尤其是在野黨的委員請託一下，是不是能夠讓這1,000億的追加預算能夠通過啦！因為過去他在台電，你們也是很照顧他嘛，對不對？我剛剛也聽到，未來台電在關於棒球隊球員的照顧上面也會給予……就是打了職棒之後，未來如果要回到台電，還是有這個工作機會嘛，是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：是，我們現在正在朝這方向規劃，我們會把我們的規章改變以後報部裡面同意，我想這應該是一個……坦白講，還好這位臺灣隊長沒有繼續留在台電，有去打職棒，才有這個冠軍啦！我們也希望……"],["李委員坤城：他當初也是在猶豫啦！因為他認為職棒的變化也很大，可是參加職棒後，他也回不去台電了啦！"],["曾董事長文生：是，所以我們才希望能夠做這個調整，我們希望如果來台電打的優秀球員不要有後顧之憂，有機會為國爭光的時候，可以來為國爭光，不要擔心回不了台電，所以我們現在正在改變，在簽辦要做這個人事規則的調整。"],["李委員坤城：好。我問一下莊部長，我們公股銀行是不是也有很多的銀行……我知道的是有合庫、土銀、一銀，他們對於不管是羽球、桌球或是其他的運動也都有支持嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，也會對一些球隊們或運動員們給予一些贊助跟培育。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我記得我們很多奧運的選手，不管是林昀儒或是戴資穎，他們過去也是代表……我忘了是土銀還是合庫。"],["莊部長翠雲：合庫，戴資穎是合庫，像李洋、王齊麟，麟洋是土銀的球員。"],["李委員坤城：好，沒關係，這部分你給我一份資料好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["李委員坤城：就是有關公股銀行現在有哪些球隊？這兩年編了哪些預算來照顧我們的球員？然後球員退役之後，是否還能夠回到銀行？這兩年的資料給我一個報告，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：部長先請回好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：真的，我是建議朝野協商的時候，真的要拜託陳傑憲過來一下啦！不然這條預算真的是很難過關啦！","請教一下董事長，現在台電負債是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：負債？"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["曾董事長文生：負債是2.5兆左右。"],["李委員坤城：2.5兆？按照立法院預算中心的資料是2.6兆，到明年是到2.6兆。我問一下，每年要支付的利息有多少？"],["曾董事長文生：300億。"],["李委員坤城：300億？"],["曾董事長文生：因為2.5兆不全部是計息的舉債，計息舉債大概是1.57，所以我們的利率平均大概under2%以下。"],["李委員坤城：那我問你，你這每一度的發電成本裡面，利息支出大概是占多少？"],["曾董事長文生：零點……是滿低的啦！因為除以2,500億度嘛！"],["李委員坤城：我看了一份資料，我不知道對不對，他說你們每一度的發電成本裡面，就是你們自己發電的電力的成本，大概有15%是去購買外部電力的成本，但是利息也占了13%。"],["曾董事長文生：利息沒有13%。"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，你就是給我一份資料，每一度的發電成本。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，應該是這樣子，因為利息300億如果有2,500億度，應該大概是1.2%左右。"],["李委員坤城：多少？"],["曾董事長文生：因為是2,500億度，大概一度電0.12元……"],["李委員坤城：0.12？所以占的比例是多少？每度成本是占多少？"],["曾董事長文生：除以4，大概3%。"],["李委員坤城：3%？"],["曾董事長文生：3%。"],["李委員坤城：3.5%啦！我這邊的資料，到113年9月的時候，每度成本是3.63，利息支出是0.12，這個占的比例大概是3.4%左右。"],["曾董事長文生：0.12是每度電的成本。"],["李委員坤城：都是講每度電的成本？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我就問你了，每度的成本是3.63，你們現在每一度的民生電價成本是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：三點七多。"],["李委員坤城：三點七多，那現在1度是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：我們均價是二點七多。"],["李委員坤城：二點七多，所以其實只要是民生用電就是差1塊嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：1度電差1塊。"],["李委員坤城：等於你就是要吸收1塊錢就對了。"],["曾董事長文生：是，目前是這樣。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以為什麼今天要追加1,000億，明年還要再編1,000億？"],["曾董事長文生：其實最主要是我們過去，含今年在內，2022跟2023年台電在民生這一個部分吸收的成本就是各1,000億。"],["李委員坤城：就是你們有吸收嘛，因為你每一度電發電的成本，跟每一度民生電價的成本就是差1塊錢嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，為了要穩定物價，讓民眾覺得我們的電價不會太貴，所以你們是漲工業用電比較多，民生就是先緩著，你們就吸收，每一度電就吸收1塊錢，這也是為什麼……"],["曾董事長文生：對，其實前兩年更高，今年1塊錢，前兩年平均成本還更高一點。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，這就是為什麼今天要有這筆追加預算，明年還要再編列1,000億的公務預算在這裡面。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下，昨天院長跟工商協進會有個早餐會，他提到對於新核能是持開放態度，董事長知道這句話的含義是什麼嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我想卓院長不是第一次提了，就是因為我們要走向淨零，所有的、可能的新技術，我們都會一直watch它的發展，但院長也一直都有提到幾個重要的前提，就是安全、解決核廢以及共識這三點，我想在這個原則之下，我們對於所有新的能源都應該保持持續開放，跟要去watch它進展的一個態度。"],["李委員坤城：好，我聚焦在核四好了啦，核四這個我也問過院長，就是2025年非核家園，這個是訂定在法律裡面的。核四現在重啟使用的公投也沒有通過，所以現在核四何去何從？因為也有很多在地的居民希望，它本來是核電廠的用地，是不是能夠變更它的地目使用，還地於民？但是現在我發現台電的態度好像還不是很確定，未來核四這塊地要怎麼去做使用？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，你現在看到這都已經是既成的，已經有利用的這些電力設備，因為一個核電廠裡面不會只有核子反應爐，核子反應爐以外的有很多都是電力設備，我們希望電力設備能夠有應用的機會。"],["李委員坤城：這些電力設備還能做其他的發電設備使用嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：有些可以做穩定電壓等等相關的工作，像發電機，它可以做這些相關的工作，沒有問題，以我們現在的……"],["李委員坤城：屬於核能發電設備的這部分呢？"],["曾董事長文生：核島區的部分要利用，事實上相對來講不是那麼容易，但是後段的發電設備做其他的利用是有機會的。"],["李委員坤城：對，我認為……"],["曾董事長文生：但不是拿來發電，它不是拿來發電，它要拿來做穩定電壓等等的一些相關工作。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以未來沒有核四了，也不會用核能發電了，就是在貢寮這個核四廠上面不會用核能發電了，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：現在的狀況是我們法令上面也沒這個空間。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們要提出一個計畫，就是說這個核電廠的設備在那邊，你要去做什麼樣的使用，有哪一些你可以去做使用？你說什麼穩定電壓或是做什麼樣的使用，有一些已經沒有使用的，你要去拆除或是做其他怎麼樣……因為這個都還是列在你們的資產裡面，每年都有編經費在做資產的維護，所以你們應該要提出一個計畫，沒有用的看要怎麼去拆除，這些設備看是怎麼去用。部長是說設備的使用效率要極大化，這個是一個比較大的範圍跟說法，其實你們應該要有更具體的計畫，未來核四不做核能發電使用，這塊地要怎麼去做處理？"],["曾董事長文生：好的，其實我們一直都在做這種新的轉型計畫的規劃，我們會持續來辦理。"],["李委員坤城：好啦，我是新北市的立委，我們自己都很關心，雖然那個不是我的選區，但是大家都很關心，如果沒有使用的話，其實你們就應該要還地於民，好不好？或是說你們要做其他設備使用，也可以，但是你要跟當地的居民溝通清楚，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：好，了解，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝坤城委員。","主席在這裡宣告：我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時15分）","繼續開會（11時25分）"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：好，我們繼續開會。","現在請賴惠員召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}