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麻煩有請部長請郭部長委員好部長好 台研綠能的弊案雪球越滾越大整個社會都非常的關心"},{"start":28.413,"end":49.507,"text":"之前當然有一些特定的媒體出來擦脂抹粉說蘇貞昌3年多前就知道了我看到這個新聞我是覺得非常可笑理由是這整個案子我從我回到立法院之前我就不斷的在追蹤去年在這個經濟委員會也是台灣民眾黨的常委委員在這邊公開質詢了以後"},{"start":56.252,"end":85.119,"text":"我們的經濟部才開始動作所以大家都在問蘇貞昌如果知道3年多還要等到晨晚會質詢了以後經濟部才動起來那請問之前到底在幹嘛但這也不關您的事這個都是您上任部長以前的事情我們對於政治責任跟行政責任的歸屬我向來的個性是一碼歸一碼就事論事把它討論清楚"},{"start":86.192,"end":113.742,"text":"但我要跟部長說明的是什麼上一次我在經濟委員會質詢的時候你沒來是次長來的那個時候針對次長來的時候我有針對要求他針對台研綠能的部分以及我等一下要說的另外一個也是台研綠能但是是在台南七股的弊案處理的狀況請他加以說明我們先一樣一樣來第一個事情是說"},{"start":115.354,"end":141.702,"text":"經濟部回給我的公文我不曉得有沒有簽到你那邊上面說他已經對經理人提告了所謂對經理人提告這個詞可能用詞不是很精確我有點看不懂是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴部長您知道嗎這個部分我想應該在我這個來內閣之前應該就已經提出了"},{"start":142.705,"end":146.527,"text":"是嗎?是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴?有人知道嗎?沒有,你知道就上來協助部長,不要客氣。跟委員報告,因為這個是台綠的經理人嘛,所以是台綠有向他提起刑事的告訴。民事球場呢?準備什麼時候告?"},{"start":165.638,"end":193.368,"text":"就是基本上要對於那個損失到底是多少所以現在對於台率損失多少還沒有掌握嗎因為我們目前知道台率到底還需要多久才知道它會損失多少不好意思齁我給你回答問題請你針對問題回答我們在上面問答不是我在這邊講你在那邊各說各話我們一個問題一個問題來把它講清楚第一個你說還沒有提民事訴訟理由是說損失還要評估"},{"start":195.469,"end":219.109,"text":"這個損失還要評估多久因為這個東西我們跟台泥當中有許多的現在繼續要進行仲裁那因為有一些的可能可以透過仲裁拿回一些我們的一些那個金額所以到時候要等到仲裁結束以後會比較確定的知道說到底確定的金額以後提告的對象是誰應該就是如果說要看如果能夠離得近再經過減掉的協助的話那應該就是經理人"},{"start":222.745,"end":236.425,"text":"經理人是誰?應該是經理人經理人是誰?就經理人就是過去我們就過去台綠的董事長跟總經理所以是要對陳起玉提告?就是說等到確定以後看看我只提醒你們一件事齁給的書面報告"},{"start":238.446,"end":260.061,"text":"寫清楚還要評估多久第二個請經濟部特別注意督促喔消滅時效的問題你不要在那邊評估阿在那邊摸在那邊混阿等到消滅時效過去了以後大家要追究責任阿才說阿不好意思我們提告太晚了阿對方提出消滅時效的抗辯阿內行的人阿知道要怎麼放水"},{"start":267.833,"end":279.31,"text":"所以我特別在這邊質詢提醒一下經濟部好好督促國家損失多少錢台率損失多少錢每一塊錢全部都要追回來部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":280.627,"end":303.575,"text":"我的範圍內一定沒問題啊 可以啦 部長權力很大 我對你有信心啦 你的範圍內一定可以把這個事情處理得很徹底啊第二個事情喔 我上次在這邊質詢 我問說 台南七股的漁電工生案 一樣喔 是台研綠能的喔我問他們 說你們處理了沒有 結果次長在這邊跟我說9月3號就移送了"},{"start":304.295,"end":329.642,"text":"我聽了就很狐疑啊因為我一直掌握到的訊息從頭到尾處理只有嘉義、益族、台南、七股根本沒處理他上次在這邊回答我說9月3號就移送了我說好沒有關係啊在國會備詢不要信口開河回去用書面報告啊交上來結果交上來了以後啊部長根本沒處理啊還在了解當中啊這樣的效率部長滿意嗎"},{"start":331.984,"end":348.743,"text":"呃 我想我跟委員一樣 不會很滿意不會很滿意嗎 好請部長回去齁 轉告次長上次我把他當成是他資訊不足不是故意說話書面回來沒有好好處理部長也不滿意嗎"},{"start":350.1,"end":371.161,"text":"麻煩回去督促我只問一個問題啊因為台研綠能在台南七股搞的爛事我質詢很多次了但是我邊質詢就邊在看我們的經濟部我們的台研到底有沒有把它當回事啊結果到最近書面回覆確定沒有處理嘛"},{"start":371.661,"end":396.246,"text":"那為什麼我會提醒經濟部這件事情一定要處理阿非常快我很快就把它結束了因為犯罪手法跟嘉義異族的犯罪手法跟在台南七股阿一模一樣一模一樣也就是大把的錢全部都在外面的白手套公司那個白手套公司叫紅輝負責人現在被收押了"},{"start":397.492,"end":422.643,"text":"為什麼叫他白手套公司因為陳啟玉的兒子在那邊看著那個錢包嘛肥肉全部都到白手套公司結果我們國家的台顏綠能拿著台顏綠能的招牌啊去做生意結果台顏綠能以商業術語來講不要說吃骨頭啊渣渣分到一點渣渣嘉義一族跟台南七股一模一樣"},{"start":423.988,"end":438.534,"text":"而且這件事情誇張到什麼程度啊這件事情誇張到當初在幹這件事情的時候台南七股實際上面營運控的是誰啊是聯合再生捏是聯合再生捏"},{"start":439.761,"end":466.292,"text":"又是我們另外一個我們的國發會投資啊號稱綠能國家隊跟我們另外一個打著國家的招牌的台研綠能在搞這種事情啊部長您稍微看一下我把發票都貼上去了我為什麼把發票貼上去啊那家公司電力公司就是當初聯合再生實際上面控制的那家電力公司"},{"start":470.063,"end":496.011,"text":"第一期兩千兩百萬第二期一千一百萬付給誰?付給鴻輝就是我剛所講的白手套公司上面的名目是什麼?服務費服務費一期的服務費兩千兩百萬一期的服務費一千一百萬這到底是服務費還是開發票給回扣再洗錢請台元綠能"},{"start":501.045,"end":520.475,"text":"請台媛綠能回去了解清楚好嗎?好那第二個部分因為也涉及到我們國發會國發會裡面有董事的聯合再生嘛那剛好我們國發會在聯合再生裡面也有董事請我們的國發會在聯合再生的董事去了解清楚可以嗎?"},{"start":523.039,"end":547.683,"text":"國發會的部分我要徵詢沒有關係阿您很容易阿你打個電話給國發會的主委說阿主委我今天在經濟委員會有一個立委叫黃國昌質詢了這個問題提醒我跟您講一聲這樣可以嗎好我來打電話看他要表現因為這些事情太離譜了阿我一直在追的案子一個聯合再生一個台研令人兩個都出事結果這兩家公司還連結在一起在台南旗鼓"},{"start":548.263,"end":550.606,"text":"但大家好奇的是什麼?"},{"start":550.606,"end":554.892,"text":"台南七股這個案子是不是因為聯合再生也有份?"},{"start":554.892,"end":556.413,"text":"台研綠能也有份?"},{"start":556.413,"end":559.858,"text":"到目前為止從經濟部到檢調根本沒有人在動"},{"start":560.99,"end":587.225,"text":"再麻煩部長回去瞭解一下,可以嗎?我要瞭解這個過程,因為我們不是檢調,所以請檢調幫忙。 是,這我瞭解。 是,是,是,是,是,不會啦,《台言綠能》裡面很多資料啦,經濟部肯查的話,絕對查得出來啊。這些發票... 因為我們不是檢調的專業,所以也很難判斷。沒有啦,這些發票我都拿得到,我跟部長保證,你們只要有人願意去《台言綠能》查,一定查得出來的。"},{"start":588.459,"end":589.58,"text":"請部長拍人下去查"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。臺鹽綠能的弊案，雪球越滾越大，整個社會都非常關心，之前當然有一些特定的媒體出來擦脂抹粉，說蘇貞昌三年多前就知道了。我看到這個新聞，就覺得非常可笑，理由是，這整個案子，我從回到立法院之前，就不斷地在追蹤，去年在經濟委員會會議，也是台灣民眾黨的陳琬惠委員在這邊公開質詢了以後，經濟部才開始動作，所以大家都在問，蘇貞昌如果知道三年多，還要等到陳琬惠質詢了以後，經濟部才動起來，那請問之前到底在幹嘛？但這也不關您的事，這個都是您上任部長以前的事情，對於政治責任跟行政責任的歸屬，我向來的個性是一碼歸一碼，就事論事，把它討論清楚，但我要跟部長說明的是什麼？上一次我在經濟委員會質詢的時候，您沒來，是次長來，針對次長來的時候，我有要求他針對臺鹽綠能的部分，以及我等一下要說的，另外一個也是臺鹽綠能，但是是在臺南七股的弊案處理的狀況，請他加以說明。我們現在一樣一樣來，第一個事情是說，經濟部回給我的公文，我不曉得有沒有簽到你那邊，上面說他已經對經理人提告了，所謂「對經理人提告」這個詞可能用詞不是很精確，我有點看不懂，是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴，部長，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，我想，應該在我來內閣之前就已經提出了。"],["黃委員國昌：是嗎？是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴？有人知道嗎？你知道就上來協助部長，不要客氣。"],["胡司長文中：跟委員報告，因為這個是臺綠的經理人，所以是臺綠有向他提起刑事的告訴。"],["黃委員國昌：民事求償呢？"],["胡司長文中：民事求償還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：準備什麼時候告？"],["胡司長文中：基本上對於損失到底是多少要計算出來……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在對於臺綠損失多少還沒有掌握嗎？"],["胡司長文中：對。因為我們目前知道臺綠到底還有多少虧損……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久才知道損失多少？"],["胡司長文中：還有許多仲裁案在進行……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思喔，我給你回答問題，請你針對問題回答，我們在上面問答，不是我在這邊講，你在那邊各說各話，我們一個問題一個問題來，把它講清楚。"],["胡司長文中：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，你說還沒有提民事訴訟，理由是損失還要評估，這個損失還要評估多久？"],["胡司長文中：因為這我們跟台泥有許多的事現在在進行仲裁，因為有一些可能可以透過仲裁拿回我們的一些金額，所以要等到仲裁結束以後，會比較確定地知道到底是多少。"],["黃委員國昌：確定了金額以後，提告的對象是誰？"],["胡司長文中：如果能夠釐清，再經過檢調的協助，那應該就是經理人。"],["黃委員國昌：經理人是誰？"],["胡司長文中：應該是經理人。"],["黃委員國昌：經理人是誰？"],["胡司長文中：經理人就是過去臺綠的董事長跟總經理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是要對陳啟昱提告？"],["胡司長文中：就是說，等確定以後看看……"],["黃委員國昌：我只提醒你們一件事，給個書面報告，寫清楚，還要評估多久？第二個，請經濟部特別注意督促消滅時效的問題，你不要在那邊評估，在那邊摸，在那邊混，等到消滅時效過去了以後，大家要追究責任，你們才說：「不好意思，我們提告太晚了。」屆時對方提出消滅時效的抗辯。內行的人知道要怎麼放水，所以我特別在這邊質詢，提醒一下經濟部，好好督促，國家損失多少錢，臺綠損失多少錢，每一塊錢全部都要追回來，部長可以承諾嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我的範圍內一定沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：可以啦。部長權力很大，我對你有信心啦。你的範圍內一定可以把這個事情處理得很澈底。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員對我有信心。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個事情，我上次在這邊質詢，我問說臺南七股的漁電共生案，一樣是臺鹽綠能的，我問他們說：「你們處理了沒有？」結果次長在這邊跟我說9月3日就移送了，我聽了就很狐疑，因為我一直掌握到的訊息，從頭到尾，處理的只有嘉義義竹的部分，臺南七股的部分根本沒處理，他上次在這邊回答我說9月3日就移送了，我說：「好，沒有關係啦。在國會備詢，不要信口開河，回去用書面報告交上來。」結果交上來了以後，部長，根本沒處理，還在瞭解當中，這樣的效率，部長滿意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我跟委員一樣，不會很滿意。"],["黃委員國昌：不會很滿意嘛？好，請部長回去轉告次長，上次我當成是他資訊不足，不是故意說謊，書面回來，沒有好好處理，部長也不滿意嘛，麻煩回去督促。我只問一個問題，因為臺鹽綠能在臺南七股搞的爛事，我質詢很多次了，但是我邊質詢就邊在看，我們的經濟部，我們的臺鹽，到底有沒有把它當回事啊？結果到最近書面回覆，確定沒有處理嘛。那為什麼我會提醒經濟部這件事情一定要處理？非常快，我很快就把它結束了，因為犯罪手法一樣，嘉義義竹的犯罪手法跟在臺南七股的犯罪手法一模一樣，一模一樣，也就是大把的錢全部都在外面的白手套公司，那個白手套公司叫鴻暉，負責人現在被收押了，為什麼叫它白手套公司？因為陳啟昱的兒子就在那邊看著那個錢包，肥肉全部都到白手套公司，結果我們國家的臺鹽綠能，拿著臺鹽綠能的招牌去做生意，結果臺鹽綠能以商業術語來講，不要說吃骨頭，只分到一點渣渣，嘉義義竹的狀況跟臺南七股的狀況一模一樣，而且這件事情誇張到什麼程度？這件事情誇張到，當初在幹這件事情的時候，臺南七股案實際上營運控制的是誰啊？是聯合再生，是聯合再生，又是我們國發會的另外一個投資，號稱綠能國家隊，跟另外一個打著國家招牌的臺鹽綠能，在搞這種事情。部長，您稍微看一下，我把發票都貼上去了，我為什麼把發票貼上去？那一家電力公司，就是當初聯合再生實際上控制的那一家電力公司，第一期2,200萬，第二期1,100萬，付給誰？付給鴻暉，就是我剛剛所講的白手套公司。上面的名目是什麼？服務費。一期的服務費2,200萬，一期的服務費1,100萬，這到底是服務費還是開發票給回扣在洗錢？請臺鹽綠能回去瞭解清楚好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個部分，因為也涉及到國發會，國發會裡面有董事是聯合再生的人，剛好國發會在聯合再生裡面也派有董事，請國發會在聯合再生的董事去瞭解清楚，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：國發會的部分，我要徵詢……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。很容易，你打個電話給國發會的主委，說：「主委，我今天在經濟委員會，有一個立委叫黃國昌，質詢了這個問題，提醒我，跟您講一聲。」這樣可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我來打電話看看……"],["黃委員國昌：因為這件事情太離譜了，我一直在追的案子，一個聯合再生，一個臺鹽綠能，兩個都出事，結果這兩家公司還連結在一起，在臺南七股，但大家好奇的是什麼？臺南七股這個案子，是不是因為聯合再生也有份，臺鹽綠能也有份？到目前為止，從經濟部到檢調，根本沒有人在動，再麻煩部長回去瞭解一下，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我來瞭解這個過程，因為我們不是檢調……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這我了解。"],["郭部長智輝：我要請檢調幫忙。"],["黃委員國昌：不會啦，臺鹽綠能裡面很多資料，經濟部肯查的話，絕對查得出來。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們不是檢調的專業，所以也很難判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，這些發票我都拿得到，我跟部長保證，你們只要有人願意去臺鹽綠能查，一定查得出來的。這樣可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：要內行的人去，我們這些外行的去，也是查不到。"],["黃委員國昌：不然這樣好了，不用錢，你派我去，你派我去。"],["郭部長智輝：我們不敢啦，我不是你的上級關係。"],["黃委員國昌：不會、不會、不會。絕對可以，只要你願意，你派我去，你派我去，我去查完以後，我把報告交給部長，這樣好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：不敢啦。"],["黃委員國昌：不用，不用。"],["主席：謝謝，那請部長派人直接下去查了，派人下去查。","好，中午的會議不休息，延長會議時間。","現在請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","林月琴","蔡易餘","黃國昌","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","何欣純","葉元之","林倩綺","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}