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隔了七年今天不做明天就會後悔"},{"start":2251.822,"end":2268.632,"text":"當時花東快819億現在是2308億我們看到交通部的報告現在又到2000去年2308億現在2500多億所以如果持續的延長下去對整個台灣均衡區域的發展是有莫大的損傷再過來"},{"start":2270.779,"end":2283.837,"text":"我們要瞭解一個國家並沒有兩個國度從去年年底在11月28號國發會所通過的楊梅道頭份段整個高速公路的這個拖寬工程我們看一下"},{"start":2286.758,"end":2315.714,"text":"三十六公里一千三百一十四億行政院合併總共一公里三十六點五億元而花東快一百七十四公里兩千三百零八億一公里十三點二億生命無價交通命權再下一頁過去在去年年底我們看一下不管是在台東的賴昆城花蓮的民進黨提名的立委候選人都把花東快成為他們最主要必須落實的主要政見下一頁"},{"start":2316.857,"end":2319.959,"text":"而且我們再看看我們的蔡總統大家所做的介紹"},{"start":2345.154,"end":2370.752,"text":"我們要再次謝謝蔡總統對人民的承諾也謝謝王部長再三表達環島高鐵不是夢我們希望所有的在工程界的人秉持著我們工程師的精神讓台灣早日成為共同生活圈今天的提案拜託朝野立委我們都在這個大家庭裡面讓人民的期待不要一再的落空"},{"start":2372.453,"end":2391.683,"text":"我們希望政黨給人民的這樣的一個希望也能夠確實的來執行。謝謝。好,謝謝傅崐萁的委員。好,接下來我們有請交通部王國才部長報告。"},{"start":2398.358,"end":2421.234,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生以下我就附所有委員所提的花東快速公路建設特別條例先簡單提出我的看法第一個就是長期以來東西的不平衡事實上在民進黨執政以後現在總共投入2200億"},{"start":2423.763,"end":2453.763,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2454.483,"end":2473.395,"text":"可信性研究綜合規劃環評確定和定以後每一年編的年度預算就送到立法院來審查所以每一年的9月在審預算裡面就可以看到各個委員選區裡面的建設計畫"},{"start":2474.716,"end":2498.071,"text":"那他的精神就是說對於這些個案計畫透過一個可行性計畫效益以及對國家安全社會經濟另外一個很重要就是環境的影響必須審慎評估如果通過以後就是推動各項的這個建設那花東快速公路事實上本來是已經這個不做了"},{"start":2499.252,"end":2514.111,"text":"我們在108年依照交友會的這個決議把它重啟可行性我們是在109年10月重啟可行性也就是說它現在已經進入我剛才所談的中長期個案計畫審議的程序裡面了"},{"start":2517.807,"end":2547.807,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2548.448,"end":2570.808,"text":"現在既然花東快速公路8月就已經完成可行性了那我們已經在這個程序裡面那所以我們覺得如果用一個特別條例的部分也請委員審慎考量就是希望還是走到我們的一般的這個審議的程序那以下詳細的部分我請黃義貴司長來跟各位做一個詳細的報告謝謝"},{"start":2582.828,"end":2599.297,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就有關副委員昆齊等33位委員擬具花東快速公路建設特別條例草案提案提出本部處理建議供貴委員會參採進行指教"},{"start":2602.439,"end":2617.513,"text":"本部近年已積極投入大量資源改善花東地區鐵公路交通建設各項建設陸續完成後將可滿足花東地區基本的運輸需求近年已完成及執行中計劃"},{"start":2619.181,"end":2641.311,"text":"包括輔助地方政府已超過2200億元加上規劃中計畫將超過3000億元說明如下在鐵路部分已完工的包括花東縣鐵路瓶頸路段雙軌化及全線電氣化計畫總共250億元第二個花東縣鐵路整體服務效能提升計畫61億元"},{"start":2648.914,"end":2672.636,"text":"台鐵南回鐵路臺東潮州段電氣化工程建設計畫276億元在執行中的鐵路計畫有花東鐵路前線雙軌電氣化456億元議定117年可以完工在公路部分已完工的計畫包括臺九縣蘇花公路山區路段改善計畫"},{"start":2676.098,"end":2699.906,"text":"臺九縣南迴公路透貫改善後續計劃227億元臺九縣花東公路第三期道路改善計劃47億元那在執行中的計劃包括臺九縣花東縱谷公路安全景觀大道計劃花蓮段151億元臺九縣花東縱谷公路安全景觀大道計劃台東段142億元"},{"start":2703.707,"end":2720.496,"text":"在補助型計畫裡面包括生活圈道路交通系統的建設計畫有20億元在前端基礎建設提升道路坪子計畫有22億元而在規劃中的計畫有台九縣速發公路安全提升計畫約820億元本部有關"},{"start":2725.097,"end":2753.705,"text":"本特別條例草案第7條本部的意見如下有關不受公共債務法第5條有關每年度舉債額度之限制一節查近年政府特別預算屬施政迫切需要符合預算法規定且符合財政紀律法及公共債務法債務存量之限制無常態化情形不宜為個案取消其舉債額度限制"},{"start":2754.864,"end":2782.364,"text":"本條例首須建設經費提案循特別預算程序辦理為預算法第83條規定列語有國防緊急設置後戰爭國家經濟重大變故重大災變不定期後數年一次之重大震勢之情形時行政院使得於年度總預算外提出特別預算故特別預算之提出有其特殊性與嚴謹性"},{"start":2784.758,"end":2795.472,"text":"本條文有關設置花東快速公路建設發展基金一節依財政紀律法第8條及行政院主計總署訂定因應財政紀律法設立"},{"start":2796.792,"end":2821.195,"text":"被營業特種基金之執行原則第二點規定需具備新增且適足財源且經檢討無法納入現有基金辦理者使得成立及特後指定資金來源應具備政府既有收入或國庫撥補以外新增適足財源且所辦事務未能納入現有基金辦理"},{"start":2822.116,"end":2847.113,"text":"查現行花東地區發展條例規定花東地區綜合發展實施方案內容涵蓋交通建設並以設置花東地區永續發展基金推動相關的發展事項原本案相關交通建設需求可納入既有的花東地區發展條例辦理無需另行設置花東快速公路建設發展基金"},{"start":2848.434,"end":2875.977,"text":"花東快速公路重啟可行性計劃系依立法院108年12月2日第9屆第8會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會以臨時動議決議辦理本部公路局依據立法院臨時動議已於109年10月重啟花東快速公路可行性評估目前已進入期末報告階段預計113年的8月完成"},{"start":2877.23,"end":2895.411,"text":"本計畫路線長達174公里,路廊行經至少約11個原民部落,亦涉及特定農業區、國際知名的花東縱谷、自然景觀、督蘭山以及地震帶、立即遏地等地質敏感區域等。"},{"start":2896.292,"end":2915.485,"text":"相關後續的環評作業程序敏感複雜容易造成與環保團體對立本案未來若經環評審議決議不宜開發將造成本條例無法執行令行經原民部落依據原住民族基本法第21條相關開發計畫應諮詢原民部落同意使得開發"},{"start":2921.618,"end":2943.837,"text":"另一本計劃建設規模及經費龐大目前初估約2555億元依憲法第70條立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得未增加支出之提議本特別條例之立法恐產生立法權干預行政權之憲政爭議原本花東快速"},{"start":2945.038,"end":2957.728,"text":"計劃建議能以經專業評估結果後才個案計劃循行政院中長程個案計劃審議程序辦理經檢討目前尚無設置特別條例之需求"},{"start":2959.451,"end":2982.409,"text":"目前各項公共建設之推動以行政部門已有完善之中長程個案計劃審議制度以計劃評估過程針對需求性、可行性、協調性、計劃效益性及對國家安全、社會經濟、自然環境及性別之影響進行嚴謹的評估即以推動國家各項交通建設"},{"start":2983.43,"end":3001.601,"text":"本草案的實質內容現階段已由本部公路局辦理可行性評估研商中依據目前公共建設推動之評估審議程序不僅開發過程需兼顧程序正義亦需確保花東地區環境人文之永續發展"},{"start":3002.682,"end":3017.669,"text":"故請求大院委員審慎考量並能基於憲政分際充分中共行政權完整性不宜善為增加預算支出本條例且有自在難行之處自無法推動懇請諒解並與參採謝謝"},{"start":3029.141,"end":3055.948,"text":"好,交通部報告完畢,現在進行詢答先宣告一下事項第一,發言時間初期委員5加1分鐘,列席委員4分鐘第二,委員發言登記於10點30分截止第三,各位委員如果有提案請在10點前提出以便議事人員會診第四,暫定10點30分休息5分鐘第五,中午原則上不休息現在我們就請登記第一號委員李崑澤委員發言"},{"start":3065.582,"end":3079.967,"text":"謝謝主席請一下王國采部長王國采部長李委員長好部長部長你好早有關於花東快條例我想在座的委員"},{"start":3081.072,"end":3107.833,"text":"都是專業而受到人民的支持身為一個立法委員我想大家對於憲政體制的運作以及三權分立這樣的一個基本的原則跟民主政治的常識大家都非常的清楚那我們現在就回歸到交通建設相關的這樣的一個重要的議題那每一位委員對於交通建設對於自己選區的這樣的一個"},{"start":3110.018,"end":3115.971,"text":"大眾的安全便捷的這樣一個運輸系統大家都是希望能夠為選區來極力的爭取但是"},{"start":3119.144,"end":3139.285,"text":"交通建設還是有它嚴謹的一個評估的程序也必須要有完整的這樣的一個預算的財政的一個編列那部長當然我們要經過可行性的評估這是一個很嚴謹的相關的事情評估包括可行性評估"},{"start":3140.006,"end":3169.446,"text":"包括環境影響評估包括環差評估以及包括財務評估來部長簡單說明一下目前我們所有的個案計畫就單項的計畫齁都是按照行政院中長期計畫的審議要對當然部長我先提醒當然要可行性評估之後通過再來做細部的規劃再來做環評再來做審核再來做相關的預算的一個編列"},{"start":3170.066,"end":3179.933,"text":"那我們對於花東的這樣的一個交通建設我們有胡坤祺委員徐貞蔚委員以及啊"},{"start":3181.394,"end":3201.492,"text":"非常認真的蕭美琴在擔任立委的時候都為花東的交通建設全心全力的在努力那這幾年政府對於花東的交通建設有做什麼事情嗎來基本說明一下我們現在在花東我舉幾個例子第一個塑化改是在我們完成就是"},{"start":3202.532,"end":3228.35,"text":"整個完成那後來在大家知道過去蘇花公路的改善是爭議很大但是我們後來又合訂了這個所謂蘇花安的這個計畫讓大家有一個安全回家的路那另外就是花東的雙軌計畫過去做四分之一那我們現在正在做那四分之三我們覺得不夠我們繼續做四分之三那另外就是那個台九的這個改善"},{"start":3229.651,"end":3245.226,"text":"華東縱谷的景觀大道那是包括通過花蓮跟台東現在也在進行中所以我們然後過去當然在我們供應計畫裡面的這些相關還有觀光的這個補助我們以以以我個人或是我們交通部來講對於"},{"start":3246.527,"end":3268.66,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":3268.72,"end":3289.146,"text":"每一個委員的這個服務區每一個個案計畫都是以這樣的一個程序所以政府在過去幾年那藉由傅崐萁委員徐貞蔚委員以及蕭美琦委員他們的共同的一個努力所以對花東的交通資源也是一再的投入那其實部長我記得105年的時候"},{"start":3291.007,"end":3306.354,"text":"那馬英九時代其實就提過相關的花東快的可行性評估很可惜當時沒有通過但是到109年蔡政府又重啟這個可行性評估目前的進度來說明一下是"},{"start":3306.974,"end":3324.991,"text":"的確這個花東快過去真的是已經停止了那我們現在就是透過立法院的決議現在109年10月我們就重啟可行性那今年的8月會完成這個可行性的報告那這個可行性報告裡面就針對它的路廊"},{"start":3325.912,"end":3343.155,"text":"包括過去他這個可能遭遇的一些課題或是他的效益會做一個說明所以現在等於是我們按照中長城的這個計畫已經走到第一步而且第一步即將完成我在這邊提醒各位專業優秀而受到"},{"start":3344.256,"end":3371.099,"text":"選民支持的立法委員我們當任立委都有對於憲政體制運作的基本的這樣的一個知識那我們對於三權分立這樣的一個民主政治的基本原則大家也都非常的清楚那我們現在更必須來向社會大眾說明說我們也清楚相關的這樣的一個事前的嚴謹的這樣的一個評估是必要的不管是"},{"start":3372.04,"end":3392.675,"text":"可行性評估環境影響評估環差評估或是財務評估通過之後我們必須針對相關的程序來逐年編列預算這個也都是要經過立法院的一個審核那我們基於永續經營的這樣一個精神才能夠來做一個安全"},{"start":3393.602,"end":3407.508,"text":"並且的一個大眾的運輸系統這是我們必須要去努力的我記得少年足球裡面周星馳有說過一句話有一句很有名的台詞球不是這樣踢的"},{"start":3409.403,"end":3422.394,"text":"我想這句話我們所有的委員大家共同來思考那部長我們現在必須要提到我們相關的有關於台鐵高鐵跟國道客運相關客運是否會有漲價的這樣的一個議題那當然"},{"start":3425.354,"end":3451.995,"text":"相關的交通的這種票價的議題是重要的民生議題那客運公會也已經向公路局公路總局來申請調漲那漲幅大概是11%至23%就是說我們的中長程的客運以及短程的三排是可能會漲到23%然後短程的四排的可能會漲到11%"},{"start":3453.576,"end":3470.705,"text":"另外高鐵公司在4月份也會提出相關的票價的一個基準那台鐵公司預計在4月份也會提出相關的這樣的議程的討論那也因為時間的關係請部長最後簡單的說明一下我們對於漲價交通部基本的原則"},{"start":3472.286,"end":3494.822,"text":"國道科醫因為他18年沒漲那最近他也面臨到很多經營的困境所以我們基本上是會比性把他送到我們的交通費力審議委員會但是我們現在處理言者是這樣端錢因為現在有Tpass可以吸收所以民眾不影響不大那中長程的部分我們目前是朝向這一個部分補貼的方式不要讓他調太高"},{"start":3495.723,"end":3513.939,"text":"那高鐵跟台鐵他們是因應這個相關成本的提升提出所謂的這個票價的這個費率那這部分因為跟委員報告基本費率跟票價實際的票價事實上是可以不脫鉤的"},{"start":3515.74,"end":3529.251,"text":"所以現在大概台鐵公司現在在處理方案可能4月份可能也會來不及他們可能會這個相關細節的討論那高鐵公司只是談出來他也還沒有一個詳細的一個分析"},{"start":3531.112,"end":3559.632,"text":" ﹏那我們是希望說這個台鐵公司跟高鐵公司後續透過這個董事會的一個程序然後跟所謂的現在合定的費率跟他的票價多少我們到時候會做一個討論那現在我們從時間去推這個決定應該會在今年下半年以後時間的關係那我們看到高鐵台鐵以及客運的搭乘人數每天將近400萬"},{"start":3561.431,"end":3589.596,"text":"高鐵的搭乘人數是超過20萬台鐵搭乘人數是超過62萬那汽車客運一天大概有281萬所以每天將近有400萬人次的這樣的一個票價的議題當然是民眾所關心客運的議題當然短程的有TPAS相關的一個補助那中長城的政府在交通部也有一定的相關的補助的這樣的一個思考的方向那高鐵因為"},{"start":3590.436,"end":3610.37,"text":"在過去我們都認為我一再的提出高鐵的問題是運量的問題而不是票價的問題所以在這幾年跟交通部王部長我們的共同努力推動很多的優惠的這樣的一個方案例如說這個找鳥優惠啦學生票啦敬老愛心孩童這個部分"},{"start":3611.651,"end":3637.14,"text":"這些優待的票種就大概占了三成二的這樣的一個達成率更別說自由座也大概占了三成大概就有六成是屬於這種我們推動這種優惠票價因為能夠提升運量也是讓高鐵能夠穩定成長他的營收的一個重要的元素所以有關於高鐵的產價部長也必須要審慎的思考那他的部分我們必須要針對他的服務的品質"},{"start":3638.16,"end":3638.64,"text":"李坤哲委員"},{"start":3666.451,"end":3692.473,"text":"接下來有請傅昆旗委員主席請部長請王部長部長請你看一下看清楚一下"},{"start":3695.502,"end":3723.42,"text":"這個大選的時候啊花蓮跟台東民進黨所提名的立法委員候選人他的政見主要政見就是興建花東快賴清德總統當選人也來背書蕭美琴副總統當選人也來背書欸你不要上來你不要上來我沒有請你上來你們交通部什麼時候出大法官你做好"},{"start":3726.059,"end":3753.592,"text":"特別在這裡請教一下部長從賴清德總統當選人到蕭美琴副總統當選人到民進黨所提名的花東立委候選人都列為主要政見告訴東台灣的人民民進黨是如此的關心東台灣的建設希望均衡台灣的發展都支持交通平權"},{"start":3754.932,"end":3782.649,"text":"大選完才短短兩個多月本席請教一下部長您對於花東快的興建你打從內心深處你是支持還是不支持我支持他所以當時我們就進入了從既然你支持這是真心的嗎這是真心的嗎你現在越來越像政治人物啊真心的嗎"},{"start":3784.209,"end":3803.674,"text":"要不然就不會重啟啊重啟是立法院做的決議又不是你做的決議本席請教你摸著你的良心講你想想看如果今天你在求婚的當下你對你的太太所講的是不是真心話你今天面對全國國人你講的是不是真心話"},{"start":3805.029,"end":3832.043,"text":"你支不支持花東快的興建請部長回答應該如果更明確來講是不反對剛剛是支持現在是不反對等於你問你的太太說願不願意嫁給我然後現在我不反對你嫁給我那接下來呢你最好不要嫁給我是嗎現在這樣就是說我希望從我們的相關的評估去證明本席是請教你吧"},{"start":3833.735,"end":3862.508,"text":"打從交通人的立場這條路應不應該興建請教回答一定要分析評估可行我已經講說我不反對但是也要經過一個專業的評估你從開始的支持到不反對然後到評估部長真的新潮流把你培育成這個樣子真的不容易三階段的回答問題本席在這裡"},{"start":3864.537,"end":3891.816,"text":"隆重地告訴你立法院所承載這23百萬人的民意代表各個政黨這是什麼意思23百萬人的民意不是40%的總統在這裡所通過的決議就是代表全民的意識所以如果通過了花東快條例"},{"start":3893.089,"end":3922.054,"text":"對於交通部來講您願意去興建它這一個交通人的基本立場交通平權生命無價立法院今天通過條例是幫了你一把把條例通過你更好做事情結果你的報告是如此的羞愧交通人什麼叫自愛難行什麼叫違憲我不曉得你們現在司長還兼大法官法律是由你們交通部來解釋的嗎"},{"start":3923.428,"end":3939.726,"text":"委員我剛才談到這一步實在羞愧啊不是什麼時候輪到你們來解釋如果連立法委員都不能解釋法律他們都不是大法官可而且明天到晚大法官上身現在連你們交通部也認為你們大法官"},{"start":3940.971,"end":3966.343,"text":"這是國會要有尊嚴欸國會在審議輪到你們交通部說三道四嗎那講什麼審查要有正義什麼叫有正義要有公平啊什麼叫有違憲之餘是你們交通部可以來講的嗎是你們交通部可以來講有沒有違憲之餘你們申請過大法官解釋了嗎今天我們在座的是一個交通要不要做該怎麼做"},{"start":3969.442,"end":3995.2,"text":"國民黨執政本席在講話97年520執政兩年8個月民國100年1月29號蘇哈改就動工了現在您把蘇哈改的錢也當作你民進黨花的錢本席真的很佩服你花東雙軌電氣化到現在進行到哪裡你把錢通通列上來400多億你進行的進度是多少"},{"start":3996.834,"end":4022.84,"text":"蘇華安八隻都沒有一撇。華安平才剛剛送件。拖了八年拖了八年我們再講一次民國97年5月20號國民黨執政100年1月29號只經過兩年八個月蘇華改就動工了所有的地質湧水全部都了解清楚"},{"start":4023.939,"end":4024.079,"text":"2016議員．審查委員"},{"start":4049.903,"end":4075.495,"text":"連看都沒有看到你們真的當東台灣的人是赤等公民嗎?部長請不要把自己當作政治舞台上的小丑一個工程師是要有風骨的不是政治人物所有在國會通過的事情執政黨有意見要申請大法官解釋我們尊重"},{"start":4076.653,"end":4102.38,"text":"我們尊重但是國會的尊嚴我們必須要我們必須要守住國會審查的事情就是國會審查輪得到你們行政官員來說這件道事嗎所以本席現在告訴你工程師沒有見大法官你只要就工程專員來講你該做的事情就好部長請回新潮流已經把你訓練成這個樣子本席很佩服你"},{"start":4103.629,"end":4107.073,"text":"一個基本的一個工程專業今天一個國會可以由這些人到這裡來告訴我們要怎麼立法要怎麼樣抵觸憲法你們現在全部都大法官嗎這是一個很對工程人來講是一個很羞恥的一件事情"},{"start":4130.114,"end":4133.776,"text":"好謝謝傅崐萁委員接下來有請廖先祥委員發言好謝謝我們主席喔一樣請我們部長好王部長王部長有關今天的"},{"start":4152.452,"end":4171.482,"text":"花東快速公路建設特別條例草案的處理意見報告那剛剛其實我們副總統特別講的有關我們的回應的第5點有提到說本條例之立法恐產生立法權干預行政權之憲法爭議我認為這個對我們立法院是極度的不尊重"},{"start":4172.142,"end":4195.649,"text":"在這邊必須要提出抗議那其實立法院通過了許多的法條無論是教育復幼或者是勞保健保等等的每一個法案其實都是在希望政府能夠在預算上面去扶國立民這些法條其實都是會增加政府的預算只是他可能沒有明確的寫出一個金額而已"},{"start":4196.109,"end":4213.934,"text":"因此這個是法律案跟我們提出的憲法第7條這個預算案的情況是完全不一樣的也希望我們的行政部門充分尊重我們的立法部門以上是我的意見謝謝那沒關係我沒關係這個是我個人的意見我提出我的抗議"},{"start":4215.414,"end":4237.864,"text":"那前幾天我們一樣我知道我們對於偏鄉的交通偏鄉的民眾最痛的就是交通的問題那上禮拜非常感謝行政院針對台六四二線延伸萬里金山的快速道路有這個國發會有核定了嘛對不對但是裡面有特別提到說"},{"start":4239.145,"end":4255.717,"text":"延伸到萬里段憂心施作那我想在這邊請教部長那金山的部分呢有沒有具體的期程的確過去在討論是這一段是應該會延續還會繼續做但目前先到萬里那我們後續的重規是一起做嗎"},{"start":4257.721,"end":4261.525,"text":"部長,我知道審議不是在你。我們把整份可行性送國會審查嗎?我們是一起送的。"},{"start":4277.898,"end":4289.614,"text":"分階段來施作是國發會合定的決定但是行政議題我希望部長還是能夠站在我們交通部的立場來告訴國發會千萬不要陷賴清德總統於不義"},{"start":4293.298,"end":4321.071,"text":"你應該非常清楚這句話的意思我們現在台六二有兩個延伸的計畫一個是到萬里金山一個是到宜蘭現在我們國發會核定的居然是只有到萬里優先施作那我們的民眾會怎麼想民眾會不會想難道我們這條路只開到我們的賴清德總統的老家嗎"},{"start":4322.268,"end":4350.669,"text":"民眾會有這樣的疑慮我想部長非常的清楚所以說我希望我們交通部還是要堅定我們的立場萬里段當然要優先來施作但是絕對不能夠讓我們的人民認為我們這條台六二的延伸計畫只做到賴清的老家的門口還要拜託我們交通部後續持續爭取無論是金山還是宜蘭的東西的這個台六二的延伸務必"},{"start":4351.99,"end":4359.312,"text":"要有明確的期程讓我們地方民眾來安心請問部長可以做到嗎我想說後續就是未來在北韓的這些臺俄的這些改善"},{"start":4374.235,"end":4396.568,"text":"未來要不要到金山本來我們的計劃也是有這樣的計劃那後續現在合併到萬里那我們後面萬里到金山這一段就公路局會持續來進行好我們持續來努力好不好我們希望我們是同一個立場那第二個那合併計劃也有提到呃這個台六二的這個延伸可能會衝擊到國一大華系統交流道的一些交通影響嘛"},{"start":4397.188,"end":4421.583,"text":"那記得在大概前年的時候那國發會就有核定了系指國道1號系指到大華的這個到拓寬以及相關的集產道路的改善計畫嘛那兩年過去了那我們後續有沒有具體的一個期程能夠來向我們地方的民眾來說明因為其實在這次計畫也有特別提到嘛我們改善計畫必須要加快進行"},{"start":4423.894,"end":4441.48,"text":"那個可行性我們支持啊的確這一段是比較賽車的部分所以我們現在可行性已經快完成了那我們趕快這個按照我們行政程序來進行從也像可行性綜合規劃上來進行有沒有具體的取證大概能夠說一下這樣子什麼時候完成了嗎"},{"start":4446.038,"end":4447.179,"text":"拜託交通部再加速進行"},{"start":4470.993,"end":4474.115,"text":"李昆哲召委公共運輸票價調漲"},{"start":4490.009,"end":4511.698,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4512.818,"end":4539.467,"text":"來補助這個公車變成電動公車這個每年都有計畫我想如果未來在我表達就是說他們遇到的問題跟高鐵台鐵一樣這些都是他們的營運成本的提升那我們絕對不是只有考慮到現在台鐵高鐵因為現在電動公車跟電動的計程車的比例也越來越高我們後續也要想辦法針對這部分的成本上升來提出一些補貼之類的一些想法"},{"start":4539.887,"end":4559.587,"text":"他們一般會經過這個基本費率的調整現在比如說那個現在是國道科研也提出來了我想後續他們在固定的時間內會提出這個比如說票價費率的調整或者是計程車這個也不要忘記了好不好那就麻煩部長我直接提醒我們交通部注意到這一點而已好不好謝謝"},{"start":4565.506,"end":4570.65,"text":"好謝謝廖先祥委員接下來有請黃建豪委員發言好謝謝主席先請王部長王部長"},{"start":4592.242,"end":4619.403,"text":"副部長,謝謝副部長副部長這個一開始要先來跟您討論一個院長過去這段時間的一個承諾本期3月8號的時候總質詢的時候也問過這個陳建仁院長說520之前公用費率除了電價之外還要什麼要漲那當時陳建仁院長說除了電價之外其他的東西不會再漲我想問一下部長你的直屬長官目前還是陳建仁嗎?"},{"start":4628.689,"end":4645.524,"text":"國道客運的部分目前我剛才已經提過了就是他不只國道客運啦現在台鐵還有高鐵船出要漲那現在當然國道客運也有可能會漲價台鐵跟高鐵的部分我剛才談到這是下半年在討論的"},{"start":4646.425,"end":4674.173,"text":"所以520前部長也曾經承諾520前在這段漲價的風波裡面520前我們的公路客運我們的台鐵我們的高鐵不會漲價嗎?國道客運齁他比較我沒有用補貼的方式來協助他因為國道客運現在經營困境像基隆的桃園都有他的困境我了解他們有經營困境這不是經營才發生的長期都發生這些事情了是我跟黃委員報告我透過補貼給他雖然調但是民眾感受不會那麼多"},{"start":4675.322,"end":4693.709,"text":"所以520前剛剛提到了不管高鐵台鐵跟公路客運國道客運都不會再漲價我要確定這些事情那個國道客運因為他們有急迫性我是覺得會讓他那你這樣子院長的承諾我就跳票了但是我會用補貼的方式但是雙鐵的部分是下半人在討論下半人在討論"},{"start":4694.482,"end":4712.37,"text":"好因為我想現在距離520其實也不到兩個月那當然這個院長的承諾現任院長的承諾我想現在的這個行政團隊應該要去遵行才對要不然接下來這兩個月陳建仁說的話到底還算不算數我想這個是責任政治的問題啦如果你要漲價"},{"start":4713.49,"end":4713.51,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":4737.156,"end":4762.521,"text":"這也是院長的承諾嘛 這不是我今天提出來的啊 3月8號他的承諾說 這個除了電費之外其他東西不會再漲價那當然這個是院長承諾 我也希望說部長你要去遵守這個行政倫理啊 部長可以嗎是 國道科研我現在的處理方式是這樣 因為短途的部分有TPAS嘛 台中都有TPAS 這個所以它不會影響到 那中長途的部分我們用部分補貼的方式"},{"start":4762.941,"end":4782.753,"text":"那他實施會不會在520之後因為我們現在這個我們交通會議委員會現在還沒有審也有可能是520之後好部長謝謝接下來我們要討論到今天所謂的這個條例的問題來我先請教一下部長你認識台上的人吧"},{"start":4784.712,"end":4808.232,"text":"這個畫面上台上這個這個人都認識嗎這個賴清德當年當初在競選的時候承諾兩人當選共同推動花東快速道路兩人當選那現在只有一人當選所以就不承諾了嗎這個包括賴副總統或是蕭副總統包括我我剛才談到的就是說基本上這個花東快速道路大家都都支持"},{"start":4809.453,"end":4823.644,"text":"當然我從一個這個我們專案裡面當然要透過一些評估啦所以我是講不反對事實上我是覺得這個是對花東一個正義但是我需所有人都支持現在我們也在做了在做可行性"},{"start":4825.646,"end":4843.439,"text":"今天要審這個相關條例我覺得就沒有什麼爭議了嘛部長部長為什麼今天要特別把這個拿出來講因為選舉的時候大家都很會開支票選舉的時候也沒有人講說這一句話當初在承諾說不明有講說我們還要等交通部來評估評估完之後我們再決定要不要來推動"},{"start":4844.119,"end":4847.22,"text":"他們兩個表達他的態度啦但是所有的計畫我們還是從專業上必須走過這個程序是大概是這樣部長你剛剛提到說這個報告裡面也提到其實"},{"start":4872.006,"end":4883.82,"text":"今天我們提了這東西他到底是來我先問你這件事情這個是預算案還是法律案這個是法律案這是法律案嘛那你們的處理意見報告裡面卻講說"},{"start":4888.052,"end":4908.604,"text":"你們用一憲法第70條立法院對新增所提預算案你剛剛說這叫法律案但是你給這個立法院的報告裡面認為這叫預算案所以本質上部長你們在認知上就出現一個問題了今天這提的是法律案不是預算案再來如果你要依據憲法要談憲法大家來談憲法"},{"start":4910.723,"end":4939.903,"text":"憲法徵求條文第3條徵求條文第3條如果行政院行政部門對立法院所提的法律案預算案你覺得自愛難行自愛難行出現在你們報告最後一頁倒數第三行倒數第三句你覺得自愛難行之處你要做什麼事情你不是現在去泛話說什麼立法院違憲你不該做這種事情那個柯建民的憲法世界跟我不太一樣他的世界裡面吸毒是無罪的但是我們是有罪的"},{"start":4941.444,"end":4949.295,"text":"所以我想部長你不能受科技名影響啊如果你覺得有治安難聽之訴你應該依據憲法徵修條文的第三條去提復議案"},{"start":4950.766,"end":4977.08,"text":"這是你的法定程序啊如果你這個制裁難行那我也尊重你行政部門嘛但是你要先尊重立法部門啊今天我們提的是法律案認為花東地區有這一條快速道路興建的必要性提了這個條例所以提了這個法律案時間也不夠了沒關係我先講完齁所以如果部長我要說如果你這個制裁難行你可以最後去提復議案這是憲法復印的權利我也不能阻止你"},{"start":4978.597,"end":5000.4,"text":"可是你不是現在就說啊你們這些人不懂法律不懂憲法沒有人不懂法律不懂憲法如果不懂憲法不懂法律我們也不會選上啦也不會提這樣子的關係文書所以我今天希望說大家談憲法那就大家依照憲法的這個步驟來做我們今天提了相關的法案你不同意你不滿意你覺得這個東西你行這部門自然難行那你後面就提復議案就好啦"},{"start":5000.56,"end":5026.903,"text":"是 我剛剛有報告 這個也是來自我們法務部的見解就是說現在雖然是預算案但是裡面包著法律案 裡面包著預算所以他們認為這個一樣是抵觸這個憲法第47條但目前大概是這樣的見解好沒關係部長謝謝 那我們就再問法務部長只是說我還是要提醒你你的權限裡面如果你正確自然來行那就提復議案大家再來討論一次好不好 謝謝"},{"start":5033.536,"end":5036.518,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員接下來有請游浩委員發言有請部長黃部長"},{"start":5055.329,"end":5056.529,"text":"法律案"},{"start":5071.408,"end":5092.993,"text":"它是一個法律案但是經過我們相關部會的解釋它因為裡面有包著預算比如說2500億成立基金等等所以它本身也印含的有這個預算案的這個信息那部長過去來講民進黨黨團有沒有曾經提過任何的法律案裡面是有提到需要有預算的"},{"start":5095.216,"end":5122.657,"text":"這過去當然比如說啦好直接跟你講啦在第7屆第5會期民進黨黨團也直接蔡同榮李俊一曾經有提過了東部發展條例草案還裡面也曾經有提到就有需要相關預算那在今天來講的這個法律案來講他明明確確的就是立法委員連署的法律案那我想問一下那這樣子是一個法律案也應該審查也應該等回來預算有法源這樣子沒錯嗎"},{"start":5123.618,"end":5123.638,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5137.318,"end":5140.14,"text":"律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法"},{"start":5165.134,"end":5193.24,"text":"那其實過去來講在去年還前年的時候其實在嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別條例也是類似情況那時候甚至也是直接訂定期間那在109年1月5號到110年6月30那甚至兩度的追加預算是調到4200億到6300億那像這樣子的一個條案不是也是為了預算來講賦予法院嗎"},{"start":5193.88,"end":5220.217,"text":"這個是因為國家重大的災害所以嘛就是這個議案83條是重大災害所以他可以做一個那所以這樣子的重大建設的話其實如果說今天來講啦這樣子的一個重大建設我還是要請部長你平心的去思考啦不管是在過去來講林林總總其實許多的一個政治承諾我們看他到底會不會持續的在跳票之外啦但是希望能夠去做兌現但是在"},{"start":5221.218,"end":5248.987,"text":"以許多我們目前需要的建設其實今天來講這個花東快速如果有機會能夠來成型來完成那我相信這個國道6號東演的部分也就有機會了因為相對來講2017年的時候可行性評估是819億但是拖了到現在7年之後就增加變成2555億那說是演物料上漲其實這個不是理由"},{"start":5249.767,"end":5273.718,"text":"那在之前其實包括前幾位委員有提到的在以前的許多的政治承諾上2016年蔡英文總統就直接提到要改善東部的交通剛才也都有看到照片2020年林佳龍時任交通部長也提到了交通白皮書他希望全台6小時一日生活圈那張美惠賴昆城2024年的"},{"start":5275.219,"end":5294.966,"text":"部分也都在公報上面直接承諾還花東快速道路就連2月17號韓國瑜院長在拜會陳建仁院長的時候也有提到陳建仁院長講行政院一定依照憲法規定的權責來辦理由行政院編預算來執行一定責無旁貸部長你都知道吧"},{"start":5296.146,"end":5321.516,"text":"對,但是齁我剛才講了每一個都表示一個態度啦但是我們的確有一個程序要走啦齁那我是覺得花東快我剛才談到的不管是剛才談到一些人的支持或是我自己表達我不反對就讓他這個按照程序來走我們是覺得一個計畫必須有完整性啦如果你沒有完整性比如說"},{"start":5322.895,"end":5323.515,"text":"政府解決民眾問題"},{"start":5347.581,"end":5375.92,"text":"所以說今天來講不是因為一個法律案你說是預算案它變追加但它是事實事實就是法律那民眾要的是政府去解決問題那今天來講提出了賦予這個未來來講重大建設一個法源大家能夠去進行的時候再提環評有心要解決的話都有機會啦那其實還是回歸到過去其實十大建設那其實現在來講能夠看到亮點的其實就是在這個花東快"},{"start":5376.64,"end":5401.923,"text":"還有包括國道6號東延不要擔心預算支出會太多其實在紓困來講整個政經條例相關的經費前瞻計畫那麼多的經費但是其實回歸過去來講的時代建設我們要看到的是真正的能夠為未來10年20年30年來做出很好成果的一些重大建設對地方才有幫助所以今天回頭來講"},{"start":5402.984,"end":5404.485,"text":"接下來有請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":5440.068,"end":5441.095,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長請王部長"},{"start":5448.109,"end":5476.491,"text":"部長早部長那我想除了花東的建設很重要之外我想南部的建設我們也非常的注意啦那我之前在總質詢包含在我們的委員會質詢那我都一直聽到的訊息就是我們依照所謂的相關的程序在進行所謂的一個交通建設的一個規劃包含可行性評估綜合規劃環評照這個程序走那請教部長有沒有捷徑可以走"},{"start":5477.096,"end":5495.861,"text":"沒有因為他當時的設計就是這樣就是可行性跟綜合規劃就是談工程可不可行啦效益有沒有然後還品就是對環境的衝擊齁所以我是覺得過去這一個在我們不管是完成或是進行這種計畫這個程序是走得很完整而且"},{"start":5496.561,"end":5515.316,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5515.676,"end":5543.711,"text":"對 所以我要請教部長過去有任何的交通建設是用這樣子法案的形式來推動嗎過去有的第一個就是剛才談到的在重大的災難像那個這個新冠肺炎的這個部分另外一個是他是一個大的方向比如說離島建設條例他是一個各個可以做的都放在裡面一個就是對於還有包括花東的特別條例他是這個整個但是每一個細項也要做評估"},{"start":5544.872,"end":5559.974,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5560.074,"end":5580.133,"text":"部長那我的本席的想法是這樣子就是其實重大交通建設是每個委員的壓力每個選區的鄉親都希望有便捷的交通建設但是程序上面也是希望我們行政部門能夠加快依法加快速度我覺得加速我們應該要加速"},{"start":5580.894,"end":5605.665,"text":"那針對我想接著我們的一個票價調整的部分也是我們全民關心的議題那請教部長針對台鐵高鐵這些相關的調整部分其實對我們南部尤其是我們屏東的鄉親來講在我們重大交通建設還沒有到位之前我們馬上承受就是所謂的票價調整那這部分是不是針對中長期票價有沒有什麼樣的一個補貼的一個方案規劃"},{"start":5609.166,"end":5626.15,"text":"現在是國道科研大概就用這種方式,就是短途我們T-pass,像屏東有T-pass,它就car不掉了然後這個中長城,雖然它核定了基本匯率,但是票價我們用某一種補貼來處理,那排鐵跟高鐵因為還沒提出來"},{"start":5627.21,"end":5652.78,"text":"有可能我們用劣勢的方式來處理,因為短途,高鐵是沒有啦,像台鐵短途是這個TPAS也可以處理然後這個中長途我們到底怎麼樣讓這個票價能夠怎麼樣找到一個這個不要太這個變動太大,這個我們要來考慮但是根本包括台鐵跟高鐵我們現在回算,因為他們現在剛剛在討論送到怎麼會等等的齁,這個的討論會在這個今年下半年才會討論"},{"start":5656.921,"end":5671.376,"text":"現在目前不會?部長我想是這樣子就是去年發生高鐵自由坐制亂若說我們的高鐵台鐵的票價沒有一個整合性的一個平台來做處理後續就會發生所謂的"},{"start":5671.937,"end":5694.377,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5694.757,"end":5709.074,"text":"相關我們在聯繫加日都有它的機制第一個就是它的這個備用的車廂會投入這個是他們會處理那當然就是說整個自由座的這個過去它有一些比如說部分的"},{"start":5709.735,"end":5734.497,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5735.732,"end":5740.917,"text":"另外我針對我們因為屏東縣這個服務園廣化我們屏東縣的客運面臨這個路線虧損的問題也要必須要中央來支應那根據本期這邊的數據我們一年大概110年跟111年都虧損超過5000萬以上"},{"start":5753.607,"end":5779.46,"text":"那這個目前我們縣政府針對小黃公車的一個步線有34條路線然後輔佐我們一個幸福巴士44條路線總共78條路線對我們偏鄉是一個很重要的一個交通協助那請教部長但是這些負擔對我們縣市政府來講是很重的一個沉重的一個比例啦齁中央有沒有可能來提高我們的一個負擔的比例我請局長跟你回答是"},{"start":5780.36,"end":5795.445,"text":"跟委員報告就是偏鄉像屏東縣的這個小黃公車我們現在已經就是在17個鄉鎮那有32條路線那相關的就是說他的一個虧損的補貼其實我們都有補助那在幸福巴士也是一樣"},{"start":5795.845,"end":5816.698,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5816.858,"end":5817.118,"text":"謝謝徐副國委員"},{"start":5846.519,"end":5849.401,"text":"接下來有請林國成委員發言主席請部長還有黃師長來法務部的代表好部長早"},{"start":5876.181,"end":5897.369,"text":"我想請教一下本案提出花東特別條例提出來以後請問部長你有跟副委員跟三十幾個連署的人去充分溝通跟了解他的本質有沒有沒有來黃市長有沒有沒有齁其實"},{"start":5904.571,"end":5925.487,"text":"我本席比較在乎的就是在你們的報告為什麼要把華務代表跟黃師長請上台你們怎麼會立法權跟行政權跟大法官的解釋權把它搞在一起"},{"start":5926.53,"end":5954.579,"text":"你們要去了解他們今天立法委員提出這個案為什麼會提出這個案這很重要喔部長你很會溝通的也不跟人家溝通啊你們就一開始就武斷的立法委員提案天經地義是立法委員的天職你們怎麼會報告案這個部分一是法務部的意見二是"},{"start":5956.997,"end":5977.634,"text":"自愛然行我從來沒有看過是這樣所以有時候溝通比你們武斷還更好所以本席為什麼要請教部長有沒有溝通如果既大家都知道嘛大家都知道預算跟法律案"},{"start":5978.991,"end":5997.999,"text":"我剛才看完以後他整個條例裡面他根本只是說明的部分他是以他們推算出來是要花這些錢兩千多億這兩千多億他沒有告訴你一次就編出來這本來就是就不是"},{"start":5999.198,"end":6020.426,"text":"不是預算案啊 你們套了預算案來騙立法委員拜託我們裡面也有法官也有這個十幾屆檢察官一大堆啊 你們不要騙人啊所以我坦白跟你講 最重要我們要把原因找出來"},{"start":6021.584,"end":6046.33,"text":"找出來的原因就是一條要花東的人到底要等多久這很重要的那因為你還沒有答覆以前我希望你想一想為什麼要提這個案來法務部的代表你們怎麼會告訴交通部說這個是法律案呢或者預算案呢來"},{"start":6049.031,"end":6050.292,"text":"是你們的意見嗎?法制面的部分因為"},{"start":6067.818,"end":6092.504,"text":"參考大法官好事之...你不要再談大法官剛剛部長已經講這些條例本來就是法律案你們給人家的意見說這個就是說預算案預算案我們立法委員都了解你們編出來的東西我們不能增加預算欸 會做立委不是像你寫的啦 大家都索告喔"},{"start":6093.936,"end":6112.72,"text":"不是所以法務部代表因為剛才部長在講說綜合法務部給他們的意見這叫做預算案可是請你們回去看一看他只是把立案立法的總說明講的"},{"start":6113.14,"end":6133.887,"text":"大概是這樣 裡面的條文沒有硬性要你們編2000多億啊 你們也可以分10年編 你們也可以分20年編 沒有人講這個 所以你們不要誤導啦 你們不要誤導 因為我也知道你們有你們的看法 但是我還是要呼籲我們部長"},{"start":6135.807,"end":6156.985,"text":"溝通甚過於我也知道特別條例對特別地區確實會造成這種效應的問題這這個我們也知道可是你要針對這個要特別去說明你不能講說立法委員提出這個特別條例那為什麼不定為什麼要提這個條例你知道嗎"},{"start":6159.286,"end":6183.292,"text":"我可不可以跟委員回答一下我想傅崐萁委員對於花東一些花蓮的建設重視事實上我雖然這個案子沒跟他討論我也知道他的想法他希望快一點所以這個8月份可能就出來但是他會覺得要更快更可以去確保我也留意他的想法你們都有在做我看你們的報告你們都有在做可是速度太慢30年以來"},{"start":6184.992,"end":6213.006,"text":"你們等一下又那個那個花東改什麼改 我跟你講前我在做立定開始就聽他們說要蘇花改改到現在傅坤祺兩屆縣長都已經做完了你們所有的所有的問題你們還是要賣慢吞吞所以他提出這個條例我認為不但不違憲他合情合理但是我同意"},{"start":6214.264,"end":6229.28,"text":"有時候會造成離島特別條例這種種但是你要說明清楚啊你要說明清楚你不說明清楚就是這樣對幹我要呼籲你千萬千萬不要因為"},{"start":6230.581,"end":6244.459,"text":"科總召給你們的錯誤進席到現在為止二月一號到現在我們在委員會通過任何東西沒有一樣科總召講不違憲的"},{"start":6245.78,"end":6270.275,"text":"那如果這樣繼續下去所有的案子通通違憲那你們就不要做啊除了你們提出來要做的那就不違憲立法委員提出來的東西通通違憲不中我講實在真正的問題就是你們耽擱太久嘛花東之人真的忍受不了了嘛人家才提這個案提特別條例嘛"},{"start":6270.595,"end":6291.927,"text":"你們如果答應人家的8年到現在一個出評你們就搞了8年有幾個8年保定我們說實在這個保分啊真的你有時候要聽聽人家的意見不要一開始就是跟我們磕總召任何事情都是違憲那如果立法院要幹什麼"},{"start":6293.682,"end":6316.771,"text":"所以這點我特別要拜託部長請你們要修改修正方向不要動不動就違憲這點我特別要呼籲你們花東人不能再等所以特別條例是符合花東人之需求所以部長伯伯有在走所以這個部分真的我是良心的建議"},{"start":6318.051,"end":6338.688,"text":"雖然不住在那裏但是我還是呼籲你盡快不要用這種方式好不好我可不可以說明一下我想對花東的建設現在剛剛談到樹花改已經做好了現在就草案還有這個花東雙軌等等都要進行過去按照我們這一個中長城的計畫每一項都一個一個在做"},{"start":6340.19,"end":6364.968,"text":"雖然當然審查時間長很多是環評的課題可是你如果不經過環評以後這個道路有問題沒有啦環評也沒有環評這麼久了啦可以不可以這個環評本來是有一定步驟這個我們都知道我告訴你問題就是你們兩個店一個自愛男性一個人有特別條例哪有自愛男性只有一個剛才我已經講過"},{"start":6366.249,"end":6378.932,"text":"如果是離島特別條例這麼多,你們以後無法應付,你就坦白解釋嘛,好不好?對阿,你重點你們從來沒有寫阿!不對,我這樣講啦,別再變啦別再變啦,人家提這個案,很明顯是法律案好不好,不要再誤導是預算案,好不好?"},{"start":6394.517,"end":6415.99,"text":"好謝謝林國成委員有請陳雪生召委好謝謝主席是不是請部長黃部長陳召委啊部長早安我們在朝為官啦"},{"start":6416.892,"end":6443.603,"text":"都是講說離島偏鄉我們要照顧有沒有尤其越窮的地方我們更要注意那今天花蓮的民意代表提出來花東建設條例我覺得他跟離島建設條例有點相似啦當然他這個條例是在我們離島建設條例之後這個花東建設條例我在道理法院已經提了很久了"},{"start":6446.218,"end":6460.255,"text":"傅崐萁也不要難過,我們環評通過很久了,都還在那邊玩,所以你也不要難過不過請部長要注意一下,離島偏鄉不要刮到嘴巴"},{"start":6462.417,"end":6482.893,"text":"請多給予支持好不好當然今天的預算案可能講說我們立法院、立法委員不得增加預算的要求可以刪減法律案裡面有夾雜一些東西但是很多都是這樣啊很多法律案裡面都有提出一些經費的案件來所以部長說真的你幹得不錯啦"},{"start":6483.991,"end":6501.861,"text":"你在行政上都已經盡量保持中立了,我也看到了齁我希望這一任隔口也好,下一任隔口也好,希望你能夠繼續連任好不好?有沒有信心啊?沒有,我是覺得應該換一些人,新人應該要換人比較好,我說應該換人比較有這個新的作為"},{"start":6510.336,"end":6537.232,"text":"不錯啦,王國材國家的材料不然這個名字齁好啦部長我請問啦我這次選舉也很辛苦啊也很辛苦但是還是選上了齁很多候選人講說馬祖到高雄航線他去連署喔,我們馬祖老闆6千個人他連署7千個人出來啊蠻厲害的齁然後又找了交通部到這樣的話"},{"start":6538.973,"end":6567.47,"text":"高雄到馬祖的航線就可以飛了嗎?可以飛了嗎?現在我們是跟連向縣政府合作希望先用包機飛到一個程度我先問你前面的聯署7000個人或是聯署7萬個人你會被嚇到了是不是?然後你叫飛了趕快飛了民營那麼強大叫飛了嗎?跟花東人一樣全部都舉手雙手雙腳贊成搞花東的這個建設你們還是不理他?"},{"start":6568.983,"end":6594.604,"text":"所以他連署了7000個人找交通部?因為執政黨嘛,是不是?找你們,你們都要聽話啊?這樣的話就可以飛了嗎?沒有,就是說現在是航空公司的確需求面我相信啊我說你要去找航空公司談嘛,問題在航空公司嘛對不對?那你去找高雄市長啦,秘書長啦,找這些有用嗎?"},{"start":6595.629,"end":6618.503,"text":"跟利隆也談過,所以現在用包機部長我跟你講,我上次已經提過了,在董資詢講希望民航局局長出面好不好今天何局長沒有來你出面嘛,韓正思主導一下你出面邀請航空公司嘛這個源頭應該是縣政府還有旅行社還有航空公司很重要這三個單位對不對"},{"start":6620.236,"end":6647.106,"text":"我們試費一下嘛,包機先試一下現在包機已經確定了,現在跟縣政府談一談,比如說有多少旅客要搭我們就先試對,這個沒關係,這個縣政府去評估嘛好,我們跟他一起合作但是你們交通部要主導啊你要主導這樣的會議好不好好,我請民安局來好,第二個問題北竿機場改善,你看花東要幾百億,要在那邊頭破血流都會打架了"},{"start":6648.117,"end":6674.06,"text":"我們北竿機場改善啊,北竿很重要欸你不要出了事情再去改善,後悔都來不及啦是不是?我們這個千秋萬世的一個事情啊所以我們那邊還在吵吵鬧鬧的,還好啦不過他們主要是覺得配套配套把它做好,工期太長了齁所以當然我也希望這個案子趕快過您了解進度怎麼樣的現在?"},{"start":6675.363,"end":6702.255,"text":"現在我們已經把意見3月1日給國發會了那他現在應該他已經是往上層了啦應該很快國發會的前兩個月也往上層了啦齁然後層了送到行政院你們就不管了嗎不會不會那個我們追蹤是應該給他意見應該國發應該沒意見了那應該往上應該很快我覺得北竿應該很快政府院長都還沒看到啊不會到院長那裡去啊還在行政院秘書處還在打賺啊還在賺啊"},{"start":6705.055,"end":6730.72,"text":"你們去問一下好不好?可以問嗎?我來幫你打聽一下打聽下去問的話會不會被官腔罵你一頓啊?不會不會他會不會問你管那麼多幹什麼?不會不會吧?不會那你們問一下跟我回報好不好?好第三個我老掉床談喔停車部長傳一個LINE給我很像要祭典嘛"},{"start":6732.349,"end":6759.617,"text":"記點這個很多民眾在反彈我請問你柯市長柯文哲市長前任他把所有停車位該停的全部畫停車格了對不對沒有停車格的全部畫成紅線你要我們車子停哪裡去啊那就是叫警察給我開單嘛不停的開單嘛是不是這樣子這第一個現在你交通部"},{"start":6760.646,"end":6761.606,"text":"報告主席再給我一分鐘很快齁"},{"start":6786.209,"end":6809.569,"text":"你白天到辦公室來沒地方停,立法院周邊到處都是亂停的車子好晚上開回去也是亂停沒地方停嘛那警察不要搞治安警察就來開單就好了嘛是不是這是一個問題第一個問題第二個問題晚上回去可能並排我是覺得你們是不是路政司規劃一下"},{"start":6811.161,"end":6835.712,"text":"不影響交通的情況之下晚上10點鐘以後到凌晨8點鐘以前或是7點鐘以前你不要去開單嘛你引起民怨嘛是不是這個跟哪一黨沒有關係喔跟國民黨民進黨民眾黨這些黨派沒有關係喔你這是變名立名不要引起民怨的事情嘛這是大眾的需求嘛是不是"},{"start":6837.571,"end":6861.116,"text":"部長你答應一下,可以嗎?目前是零到六點,兼著上是可以開放可以停車,那的確就是我們在到交條例...零到六,你要這些人到外面去玩,去夜遊,去淡水河邊看看要不要跳海,然後到12點再開回來停目前零到六,地方政府可以全力調整"},{"start":6861.696,"end":6870.003,"text":"那剛才跟趙委員報告就是說這一次的修法也是一樣尤其是停車的課題晚上10點車輛已經很少流動了所以我們這一次會有一些這種微調整你這個要修法嗎?會不會送到交通委員會來討論?還是你們用行政命令"},{"start":6882.585,"end":6907.718,"text":"這一次一起討論,我想說第一個是處罰條例,比如說這個是民眾可不可以檢舉,我們現在是把它除外第二個就是才華細則的修正,我想在立法院可以討論某些行為是不是部長民眾檢舉的事情你可以討論一下嘛你要檢舉的話晚上12點以後這個停車不罰對不對那我10點到12點沒事的話我車子開到林山北路、中山北路"},{"start":6908.891,"end":6929.2,"text":"我用那個錄像一條一條給他弄過去然後交給中山分局的中山一中山二中山警察都不要做事了晚上也不要抓壞人了就在那邊坐在那邊打電腦民眾檢舉我有項目給你對不對這個我們這一次在交委會那已經互惟到交委會會做討論"},{"start":6930.556,"end":6956.599,"text":"討論一下嘛好不好不過今天重點還是高雄到馬祖的航線拜託部長回去跟民航局還有那個航政司航政司長也來了我們最帥的司長全國最帥的司長你看韓市長你主導一下好不好不要再拖了啦我一直叫叫了幾個月你們一點動靜都沒有好不好我下次來追進度好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":6960.029,"end":6983.024,"text":"好,謝謝陳雪、孫昭偉好,請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":6991.18,"end":7000.403,"text":"來謝謝主席有請王部長跟公務總局陳局長謝謝兩位那兩位是比較關鍵中間的人物今天那個主題其實台灣並不大"},{"start":7012.887,"end":7037.126,"text":"人民要求一個有效率不管是高速環島的一個快速回家路不過分一點都不過分可是這麼不過分的要求就我住在桃園我大概已經聽了30年以上慢慢慢慢一步一步一步一步的推動從蘇花高蘇花替蘇花改蘇花安到現在安了半天"},{"start":7038.007,"end":7067.272,"text":"我坦白講我不是花蓮台東的人民不安那就是一個島上大家來來去去經濟的活動對不對民生的活動我們在桃園可以講說是我們在花東很多人的第二故鄉一到年節重要是都要返鄉的那種那種急迫買火車票買不到那其實我們有很多的這個被拜託到的一個機會有時候弄得我們都很無奈"},{"start":7068.032,"end":7088.459,"text":"所以我自己的一個基本立場我認為花東快跟我們在花東這個部分一個交通我覺得台灣人民平權這種角度在交通平權我是希望能夠快點執行但我要去問一個問題其實你們現在提了很多包括維縣的事情"},{"start":7089.608,"end":7107.119,"text":"那個憲法70條裡面特別寫的哈就針對政府提的預算案我們不得增加這我知道我從中立市市民代表的時候我就知道那你現在你用那下個會期再說嘛你提了一本預算案來我們在你提的數字上不得增加我們知道嘛"},{"start":7107.859,"end":7123.574,"text":"那現在像這種要求鼓勵那種要求你們未來要增加什麼東西那種太多了啊這以前什麼班班有冷氣管壞啊委員那邊寫啊每班都要冷氣要不要花錢這臨時提案有些都要花錢啊"},{"start":7125.151,"end":7143.304,"text":"我是覺得包括委員在總質詢的時候有時候提的都是叫行政院長要花錢那跟憲法規定你當時提個具體的預算案每一個上面有個數字我們能不能有權利立法委員在上面增加當然是不行所以我是建議"},{"start":7145.387,"end":7145.927,"text":"總統賴教授"},{"start":7166.021,"end":7177.892,"text":"我們賴總統他是在花東兩位民進黨候選人上面都共提花東快速這個道路的時候他不都支持嘛賴總統支持啊"},{"start":7179.964,"end":7201.932,"text":"蕭副總統以前在花蓮立委的時候當時跟徐政委這個委員還有鄭天才委員等等的幾位委員還有劉兆豪委員2019年你也知道嘛重啟這個部分那蕭副總統他當時說什麼時空背景不同了時空背景真的不同了應該要考量整體的一個"},{"start":7203.012,"end":7223.353,"text":"議員．"},{"start":7223.453,"end":7247.585,"text":"他們我想這個副委員提的我覺得也不過分他壓的日期是10年啦所以我倒過來問你你是不是10年做好都沒信心我想倒過來問你好了啦如果你有信心其實我在猜副委員可能也不見得會提啦反正就持續做嘛搞不好8年就做完了我幹嘛要弄10年呢所以到底在哪裡我最後想要說啦應該"},{"start":7249.106,"end":7271.152,"text":"台灣很小我們雖然住在不同的縣市可是大家都說各縣市都一樣真的不一樣每次到選舉的時候人多人少自然很多縣市的爭取資源的弱勢他的現象就出現了像偏鄉離島所以我是真的是希望能夠考量民生觀光大家來支持這樣的條例通過"},{"start":7273.342,"end":7286.849,"text":" 那這個問地方的問題喔 這個大廚交友大來 那個局長講一下好了 這個是誰的 大廚交友那個延伸案啊 不是又弄到你公路總局 現在全部你高工局做嗎"},{"start":7288.902,"end":7310.336,"text":"他是延伸高架到31號現在之前你說可能會公路總局做跟委員報告齁那我們現在講就是說桃園市政府他先做那個那個旁邊的那個地方道路的拓寬之後我們再接手做閘道所以說有把路移出去我們還有地方做閘道所以是高速公路局你們施工發泡嗎還是公路總局"},{"start":7312.301,"end":7312.641,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7327.09,"end":7330.573,"text":"我們現在必須要等到說他那個道路做完之後我們才能進場"},{"start":7347.597,"end":7362.853,"text":"所以是誰發包兩邊就是說桃園市政府做他的一個市區道路我們做我們的閘道我覺得你們有因為有交接的界面因為蠻可怕的我昨天在問的時候我就最後一句話你們現在針對於目前的細節"},{"start":7364.555,"end":7381.008,"text":"講得也不太清楚他說事實上要你們設計的細節喔你們說預計今年6月就完整西部設計那但是陶宜市政府說目前你這高工局的西部設計是不是也沒找他們溝通過還是不用溝通不用管你後段怎麼接你就怎麼接"},{"start":7381.869,"end":7392.674,"text":"不是不是我們那個大的一個規劃案都已經討論完了那目前我們在做基本設計了那設計完的時候會找他一起來審查好啦那最後啊因為我拜託交通的問題啊大家多溝通啦因為他講說預計113年底開工嘛你們說預計明年中開工啦是"},{"start":7402.418,"end":7402.618,"text":"謝謝魯明哲委員"},{"start":7432.441,"end":7458.986,"text":"下一位請蔡其昌副院長發言主席好各位今天與會的所有的各單位大家好請王部長陳局長陳局長也一起好了好陳局長蔡委員好好部長好部長"},{"start":7460.819,"end":7489.204,"text":"你讚不讚成齁讓花東人交通建設更完善讚不讚成讓花東人回家的路更安全讚成而且我支持好本席也讚成雖然我不是花東人但我也非常讚成非常支持所以啊過去8年蔡政府執政8年投入多少建設在花東的交通建設"},{"start":7490.715,"end":7495.417,"text":"總共完成加規劃中的有3000億的預算投入花東的交通建設對不對?對好 這個要跟大家說清楚"},{"start":7508.564,"end":7531.199,"text":"我看很多委員的質詢對你們的業務不是太了解好像一副蔡政府這8年來對花東的人漠不關心交通建設投入3000億3000億的交通建設好部長過去花東快的歷史我們今天討論花東快過去花東快的歷史"},{"start":7533.48,"end":7555.232,"text":"馬英九總統他也做過他也承諾要做花東快對不對所以他也依照程序在國民黨執政的時候進行花東快的可行性評估請問一下最後在有沒有通過他是102年在馬總統時代102年啟動105年確定說不可行不可行好那為什麼不可行"},{"start":7556.681,"end":7572.697,"text":"他主要是在當時他們報告就是什麼效益等等的一些問題就換言之馬總統評估完之後就告訴花東人說這不可行那蔡政府上台之後是不是又再一次啟動可行性評估"},{"start":7573.417,"end":7594.273,"text":"我們是覺得就是剛才蔡委員所提的我們覺得花東的這個整個的交通建設是很重要的所以當時在臨時交通委員會108年的這個結議我們是有接受現在在做可行性在今年8月會完成這個可行性報告"},{"start":7594.673,"end":7600.219,"text":"所以換言之我們現在對於花東快速道路正在進行當中這個建設蔡政府從109年開始從第一個階段可行性評估開始做起所以我們現在進行當中"},{"start":7609.75,"end":7629.563,"text":"如果可行性評估通過下一個階段要進行什麼?綜合規劃跟環評對綜合規劃跟環評如果這兩個都過了是不是就進行細部設計對就核定然後就是邊境這個就是台灣所有重大建設交通建設我們一貫的行政程序就要這樣走對所有的個案計畫都是走這樣是"},{"start":7631.889,"end":7656.294,"text":"要讓大家瞭解嘛所以本席啊支持花東快速道路啊要進行可行性評估而且速度要快到底可不可行因為這個要給花東人一條安全回家的路嘛要讓花東的交通建設更完善嘛賴總統也支持啊蕭副總統也支持啊蔡總統也支持而且現在正在進行當中啊要讓大家去了解嘛"},{"start":7656.974,"end":7677.924,"text":"好但本席反對什麼本席反對的是破壞憲法權利分立的這個原則現在都在進行啊那為什麼要用一個條例來做因為很簡單為什麼我們的憲法裡面規定不可以編不可以要立法院委員不可以要求政令預算他是就限列權利分立的概念嗎"},{"start":7680.665,"end":7691.642,"text":"這個條例裡面要求要編2500億對不對用法律案來包這個預算案嘛那如果這個權力分立的原則被破壞"},{"start":7692.813,"end":7718.184,"text":"如果你們決定要破壞這個權力分立我不講憲法啦就這有沒有違憲吼反正最後要釋憲啦最後要釋憲啦吼但本席只講一個東西如果這個案子過了如果要交通部也都同意的話那你要趕快來跟本席講本席有請辦公室編列寫了一個案子叫臺中重大建設特別條例大概一兆啦我算了一下我們有捷運南線捷運局線"},{"start":7719.884,"end":7745.092,"text":"結運好多條嘛這個是盧市長列的林市長盧市長都列的我們有那個國道4號要銜接那個西濱快速道路啊我們有生活圈的道路要接74號這是台中的最大環啊我算一算大概一兆而且我覺得你交通部如果過了剛剛很多委員剛剛下去魯明哲委員他也提了啊大足交流道高價化他其實也應該提一個大足"},{"start":7746.625,"end":7751.71,"text":"這個交流到高價化建設特別條例不然的話如果委員回去一定給人家罵為什麼"},{"start":7754.076,"end":7779.707,"text":"副委員可以提這個那其實大家都可以過阿我就用這個方式大家就來提嘛特別預算你要早早要通知我們我也很多跟你們交通部爭取你也不見得什麼事都答應我阿不要講我現在是委員我當副院長跟你要求你也沒有每件事答應我我也很火大阿我要為我們大台中的建設來爭取嘛剛剛好多委員我看都問到他們家鄉的交通建設阿"},{"start":7781.36,"end":7798.95,"text":"你不可以厚恥薄彼啊這樣過了之後你要通知大家都可以用特別建設條例來直接要求多少預算我也是法律案喔我裡面只寫一兆而已我也是法律案我不會在你預算審查裡面再跟你加一兆不會我會用法律案來規範一兆"},{"start":7800.868,"end":7817.444,"text":"我作為台中市的立法委員我應該為大台中來爭取啊就像我也很願意為花東的鄉親來講話一樣嘛案子進行中嘛你們要快速要趕快嘛不然副委員一定一直在爭取這合理嘛他為花東的花蓮的鄉親講話這有什麼不合理啊"},{"start":7820.267,"end":7839.762,"text":"但是如果可以用這種破壞憲法分立原則來處理這個事情那你本席也要要求要這樣來做啊全台灣全立法院草野政黨不能輸人不輸丁啊那我看你交通部你也不用做了啦你就免走就大家你就黨內預算都按照特別條例直接去執行就好了嘛"},{"start":7840.885,"end":7863.557,"text":"所以要趕快過你要趕快討論會不會過這裡當然有程序嘛到底會不會破壞什麼環境到底對原住民保留地原住民的部落會議會不會通過這個本席不知道但是我覺得站在交通部立場你要積極趕快的去溝通協調馬政府時代已經否決了這個案子蔡政府時代重啟對花東人的照顧"},{"start":7864.875,"end":7883.497,"text":"但是行政效率上你要去追讓花東人有一條快速安全回家的道路其實這個是立法院過去我記得在消委員時代他也很努力在講這個事情嘛加油啦好不好但是我再一次強調我支持花東快速道路可行性評估"},{"start":7885.399,"end":7913.776,"text":"進行當中要加速我反對破壞憲法權力分立的這種原則好謝謝謝謝蔡紀章副院長副委員你去討論一下我敬禮對不起一招怎麼樣副院長好啦現在我不知道怎麼當招委"},{"start":7915.371,"end":7940.359,"text":"現在我們連國旗青天白日滿地紅都變成青天白日滿地綠了都沒事啦滿地綠啦滿地綠所以民進黨台灣那個可以別人攔的,不要別人理的好啦,那個...我要...數月講完要休息10分鐘"},{"start":7944.289,"end":7964.203,"text":"我講10點半,因為我看到術業委員來了,我不好意思下一位請陳術業委員不好意思,我跟何委員太好了這完了休息10分鐘好不好,謝謝謝謝主席,請主席邀請部長"},{"start":7970.936,"end":7988.275,"text":"部長早安今天我想委員們都很關心重大交通建設的推動本期想先請部長國家在推動重大交通建設有一定的流程是不是可以請部長簡單的說一下這個流程"},{"start":7989.375,"end":8004.862,"text":"現在整個交通部所謂個案計畫都是按照行政院中長程個案計畫審議辦法來處理那這個意思是說它是經過可行性研究綜合規劃這兩個合定以後再環評通過"},{"start":8007.663,"end":8025.848,"text":"整個核電以後我們就開始編預算給他每年比如說一開始設計費用後來是興建費用這個是所有的目前全國交通建設都是走這樣的程序所以如果所以比較沒有這種用特別條例還沒有在走這個程序就把它定了這個這個狀況"},{"start":8027.412,"end":8042.11,"text":"是好那我們知道就是說這個交通建設是可以帶動地方的一個發展然後那每一個委員就是因為是受到地方鄉親的支持來當選進入國會當然就是關心地方的交通建設"},{"start":8042.771,"end":8042.891,"text":"華東快在102年"},{"start":8069.208,"end":8097.299,"text":"當時在馬總統時代有啟動但是105年就是說不可行了所以他就中斷了然後在這個108年當時的這個我覺得應該是徐政委員所提的一個臨時動議但是在交通委員會有通過那我們也覺得花東快可以再重啟所以當時交通部也沒有反對的意見那現在已經進入這個可行性的期末報告階段在8月會提出一個報告出來"},{"start":8097.799,"end":8113.815,"text":"但是這個是委託顧問公司做的一個報告出來這樣?對,委託顧問公司就是委託他們就專業的部分去做評估嗎?也絕對不是以某個人的意志去決定這個可不可行嗎?是不是?是,所有的計畫都一樣"},{"start":8114.355,"end":8131.709,"text":"所以你說就馬英九政府執政的時候他們國民黨執政他們做這個可行性評估那時候的評估的結論就是不可行嘛所以馬英九政府也是尊重專業嘛就是不可行對不對"},{"start":8132.329,"end":8162.329,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":8164.31,"end":8180.6,"text":"本席在這邊再請教一下就是說就剛剛部長有先講了一下重大交通建設的一個流程就是有一定的流程那目前花東快的流程是已經走到可行性評估那預計在今年的8月會出爐"},{"start":8181.641,"end":8203.293,"text":"那我們先不論說這個可信性評估的結果是如何我想先請教一下就是說這個花東快的程序如果說走完全部的一個程序就是說包括它的環評環差都通過符合環評然後也經行政院審議了之後那你支持這一個建設嗎"},{"start":8204.731,"end":8222.179,"text":"我覺得如果都通過我支持就是說我當然我就說這個程序走完如果都每一個程序都走過當然我們也會盡量去克服比如說有些審查中如果他們覺得問題我們會盡量去克服如果通過我們一定支持但是的確要有一個客觀這個嚴謹的程序來進行"},{"start":8224.89,"end":8247.244,"text":"對就是只要走完這個流程都符合程序的話交通部是絕對支持花東快的所以本席在這邊在接下來請教就是說我們交通部在這幾年就是蔡英文總統執政這幾年對花東地區的這個交通建設就是鐵路公路的建設我們總共投入了超過3000億"},{"start":8248.965,"end":8260.582,"text":"那就這一些建設目前有已完工的有執行中的也有在規劃當中的那這一些計畫當中有哪一個計畫是沒有按照這個程序走的"},{"start":8261.324,"end":8290.584,"text":"全部都是走這個程序,全部都是走這個程序,而且我們都盡量加速,能夠進行加速,全部都是。所以就是說在這邊要再次的就是說讓鄉親知道重大交通建設就是一定要按照這個程序來走,就是沒有例外的。因為你如果說用一個特別條例然後來框住這個預算,這個就違反了這個預算跟行政權這個憲法的一個規定嘛,是不是?"},{"start":8291.884,"end":8319.197,"text":"因為我跟委員報告事實上交通部在全國的交通建設我們有一套藍圖那這個藍圖就包括這個東部裡面的尤其鐵公路的改善是我們最重要的一個部分那我們意思是說應該在我們這個藍圖的架構下每一個個案計畫就走它審查的程序那我們逐步把它完成那交通部非常的支持在花東的這方面的一個建設東部的建設我們都非常支持"},{"start":8320.067,"end":8333.427,"text":"對其實對於整個國內的中大交通建設我想交通部應該是站在一個統盤就是一個通盤的一個考量一個交通建設的藍圖來推動那當然每一個地方的立委都是責務龐大為"},{"start":8335.49,"end":8358.305,"text":"自己地方的居民來爭取這個重大的交通建設不過我們還是要尊重這個憲法的一個體制按照這個程序來走那我們看到今天就是交通部的報告裡面有提到就是說這個花東快速道路的推動如果用特別條例的一個方式來框住預算有違憲之餘那這個部分是不是可以請部長再簡單講一下"},{"start":8361.468,"end":8371.521,"text":"主要雖然它是一個法律案但是它裡面就是已經設定說2500億當上限10年完成還有包括成立專責的單位來督導"},{"start":8374.445,"end":8403.353,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8404.585,"end":8418.229,"text":"通過比如說他裡面要交通部長開始主持相關的會議來促進光這件事情就是說我們所有的計畫都是很客觀的那這樣的話每一個建設都要部長來比如說台南的建設彰化的建設"},{"start":8420.23,"end":8421.731,"text":"我建議部長應該就直接提釋憲啊這樣子才不會亂掉啊是不是"},{"start":8442.946,"end":8462.403,"text":"我想說這個事件是這是可以討論的但最重要是說我交通部從專業來講全國一致我如果是一個破了例那真的是每一個每一個都可以做一個特別條例是會有這種狀況那這樣未來在交通部的整體建設的藍圖還有我們審查的機制都不見了"},{"start":8466.446,"end":8489.673,"text":"對就會有這樣就等於說一先就就這個要要走這樣的條例開始去開會去促進他把經費要要這個一流多少錢等等的那這樣這樣跟後面有可能在後面某一些案子可能審查不通過那我弄了半天而且我還去主動的讓他就是開會讓他過那這樣的話就是失去一個公平嚴整嚴謹的一個審查"},{"start":8490.933,"end":8492.154,"text":"謝謝陳素月委員的發言休息10分鐘"},{"start":8522.715,"end":8523.055,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8540.406,"end":8557.143,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8561.46,"end":8567.023,"text":"稍等,明天又有人開始罵我了。可是稍後已經被人家罵了。有啊。有啊。"},{"start":8583.482,"end":8599.856,"text":"有很多人有在提這個事情啊?有很多人在提啦?好,那我看你條例有很多要講啊?要講啊?上面一講啊?上面一講啊?他們竟然一大堆人"},{"start":8609.006,"end":8623.034,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8635.196,"end":8656.101,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8666.583,"end":8688.314,"text":"議員．審查委員．審查委員．審查委員"},{"start":8711.135,"end":8722.662,"text":"委員委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8730.947,"end":8745.589,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8777.472,"end":8777.752,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":8802.244,"end":8816.248,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8819.121,"end":8840.572,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8846.954,"end":8864.735,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8871.288,"end":8898.592,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8906.613,"end":8906.633,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8952.852,"end":8961.537,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8984.747,"end":8986.777,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9037.127,"end":9061.71,"text":"委員委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9083.564,"end":9096.399,"text":"開會下一位請何欣淳委員發言謝謝昭惟陳雪生委員,我們是不是請部長部長"},{"start":9104.231,"end":9124.062,"text":"有條例嗎?部長部長好好 事實上我們今天這個特別條例要講到花東快那我想花東快在我之前曾經聽你提到就是109的時候開始重啟可行性評估那到目前為止這樣是第幾年?就109現在113"},{"start":9128.43,"end":9154.635,"text":"所以可行性評估到底什麼時候會有一個定案我必須要講這件事是因為我也可以理解為什麼大家對於花東地區的交通建設是這麼的要緊因為呢我們也希望交通平權我們希望讓台灣不管在哪一個角落哪一個地方真正能夠做到交通便利那給一條安全回家的路那"},{"start":9155.575,"end":9170.968,"text":"我看到花東快的這個可行性評估今年可能會有一個答案那我也希望說在這個一法規一制度還有呢競速的趕快來推動跟編列預算我就想到是什麼我們台中的台八縣中衡"},{"start":9171.889,"end":9185.917,"text":"中衡也是在今年113年2月16日終於終於合定了可行性研究可行性才合定而已而且中衡公路是從921封路到現在已經24年了"},{"start":9187.778,"end":9212.128,"text":"當然我知道他有他的環境生態上斷層帶的因素所以呢在環境影響的情況之下是很需要考量的因為是安全的問題我每年都會走這一條路進去大梨山地區去關心我們的農民關心我們的市民那我們呢就想到一個中橫公路呢"},{"start":9213.595,"end":9234.906,"text":"二十四年了我們現在呢今年二月十六號核定了可行性我要跟部長講從九二一到現在二十四年現在台八縣還在管制那這個管制影響的是什麼我相信你也知道影響的是在地居民的醫療教育農民觀光很多產業都一樣"},{"start":9236.158,"end":9255.816,"text":"那所以一直以來我們都認為說在安全為上位前提之下能夠盡快的修復中橫公路台八線那起碼讓這個醫療讓農民的水果運輸讓觀光可以復甦可以更好那部長這個你"},{"start":9257.337,"end":9271.089,"text":"你認為對嗎?綜合公路這個可行性通過會拖那麼久是因為他有一段時間讓這個整個地形地貌穩定所以他當時有休息一陣子所以我們應該當時評估是在115年會穩定所以我們就開始啟動就是配合工期從115開始那所以他比較長一點"},{"start":9283.439,"end":9308.604,"text":"那的確就是說像剛才談到中衡他的環境如果你沒有考慮好做完就又崩塌那永遠都做不好所以我們是有這樣的一個很嚴肅很專業的這個評估我尊重專業尊重這個技術的進步那我也尊重安全是最重要的但是居民還是希望能夠快"},{"start":9309.544,"end":9318.33,"text":"我們要加速,它目前是可能通過來包括相關的後續,民國126年才會完工,那我希望快一點是啊,我也希望這個期程能快一點,這整個經費總共200多億"},{"start":9326.656,"end":9351.095,"text":"那我相信預算不是問題重點是在於時間我們如何跟時間賽跑如何在安全的前提之下可以趕快的來修復那能提多早就多早我想是所有大黎山地區居民的想望跟期待啦我為什麼會特別講這個東西我3個禮拜去了一趟同樣是和平區自由國小為了什麼為了建制"},{"start":9352.267,"end":9380.805,"text":"牙醫巡迴醫療站為什麼必須要建制牙醫巡迴醫療站因為在那個偏鄉確實要看一個牙醫很困難那在偏鄉在部落裡面他有的是老人家有的是小孩子那我們就這麼的幸運也非常有福氣大台中的牙醫師公會願意呢派住11個醫師輪流上去設置了這個牙醫的這個"},{"start":9381.846,"end":9382.026,"text":"循環醫療站"},{"start":9409.059,"end":9421.948,"text":"來開協調會你支持嗎各位有沒有看到現在這個偏鄉的幸福巴士我們是非常的支持尤其我個人是把它當我施政最重要的部分如果有需要包括相關的購車補貼跟這個虧損補貼我們都可以處理"},{"start":9425.61,"end":9440.146,"text":"我必須要拜託交通部也重視這一件事情所以我是在幫和平區幫大梨山地區在爭取設置一個牙醫的一個巡迴醫療站而這個如果成型的話我想不是只有牙醫"},{"start":9441.127,"end":9467.785,"text":"是其他科別的醫療服務都可以進駐也能夠提供更專業的更好的一個醫療服務還有衛教資源可以進駐在山區偏鄉地方好不好這第一個我覺得這種偏鄉的服務靠我們交通來因素因為交通必須要能夠先解決啊他才進得了啊瞭解 對不對是不是我在第二個為什麼要再講第二個教育"},{"start":9468.979,"end":9484.234,"text":"我去梨山這麼多次去看過梨山國小梨山國中在最高最高全國最高的國中小風景很漂亮啊生活環境很優雅但是問題是什麼他的通學就學的交通是個大問題啊"},{"start":9486.276,"end":9514.566,"text":"現在我們當然是靠學校的交通車可是孩子呢如果國中畢業之後他要外出去念高中職他要外出去念大專院校交通重不重要交通還是一個最重要的因素嘛因為這會關係到他未來的升學問題嘛還有就職就業的問題嘛接著大梨山地區農民的水果運輸重不重要"},{"start":9515.486,"end":9545.486,"text":"議員"},{"start":9545.646,"end":9557.969,"text":"在安全的最上位的第一優先的考量之下我們如何以人為本趕快來進行綜合的復建工程好不好我們加速再拜託部長好謝謝部長好請議員發言"},{"start":9575.509,"end":9603.486,"text":"好 謝謝主席並且請我們交通部王部長請王部長部長像類似這種花東快速公路建設條例以前有沒有為了各案由立法院提出的在交通部交通部門都沒有交通部門都沒有以前確實以前各黨不管怎麼樣提出來都沒有通過"},{"start":9604.766,"end":9605.027,"text":"這人又同歸齁"},{"start":9634.093,"end":9650.113,"text":"以前會提啦 但都不會通過啦 對不對比如說啦 以前也有提那個什麼 那個什麼基隆 基隆河整治的什麼計畫特別條例啦 也沒有過啦 但是行政大會就提一個施政計畫把它涵蓋進來啦"},{"start":9651.471,"end":9676.256,"text":"像石門水庫什麼整治特別條例也是啦都行政行政單位主動提出齁然後就就那個立委提出的部分把它包含在你的行政計畫裡面啦這不一定是行政權這是行政跟立法一個互相的一個制衡嘛啊你如果通過齁我告訴你 你也沒辦法啦那以前 因為以前提出來沒有通過的啦如果今天這個條例通過啦"},{"start":9677.349,"end":9706.107,"text":"我看交通部你怎麼處理啊你大概就釋憲而已嘛如果通過很多案子都比較辦理可能大家提比較辦理就是說我們釋憲第391號他有特別提出來預算案有他的特殊性他跟法律案不同法律案是無論關係到院或者立法委員都有提案權行政會就是說立法院有提案權立委個人也有提案權那預算案只有行政會可以提出來"},{"start":9707.682,"end":9725.873,"text":"所以看來這個部分我認為這是一個非常政治性的一個動作因為如果民進黨反對我就有話講了你看民進黨執政人反對建設花東實際上這樣的一個政治性的一個提案"},{"start":9727.605,"end":9729.647,"text":"民進黨是可以說是花了非常多的錢 對不對"},{"start":9740.649,"end":9767.686,"text":"像今天提出來了這個花東快速公路啊是馬政府實在說這個不可行了民進黨把它重啟可信性評估嘛我們想自己執政馬英九自己的可信性評估說這個不可行啊那我們現在再進行再一次的評估嘛對不對那同時啦民進黨也執行一個司法改嘛對不對司法改誰做的?我們也做啊民進黨也幫他做了一個司法改啊"},{"start":9768.837,"end":9781.95,"text":"還有公路方面的南回改計劃那也完成了是不是這樣子那花東的鐵路電氣化完成了沒有在以前做事因為我們現在在"},{"start":9784.572,"end":9784.853,"text":"民主黨委員"},{"start":9801.365,"end":9822.043,"text":"所以就讓你執政黨不能支持也不能反對啦 這樣 博敦你看了沒有 你如果反對就說我們民進黨沒辦法進行 其實你今年8月可信心憑空就出來了啦 如果可信心憑空有通過 那你就要開始編列 如果去做花東快速公路的一個計畫 你再把副軍級委員的計畫納進來嘛"},{"start":9825.126,"end":9853.821,"text":"可以用的部分就納進來 同樣一個計劃 或者是黨 政黨再來協商嘛 大家再來討論嘛 靠你自己頂一下 我就自己通過了 那這樣很多委員都失禁了 對不對主席 你有沒有聽 馬祖特別 中華建設特別條例 你還沒聽出來好 來主席來 部長我現在跟你講一個事情啦 就大型車輛"},{"start":9855.589,"end":9855.609,"text":"委員會議長"},{"start":9880.239,"end":9908.638,"text":"最近這6年來從577件到954增加65%啦然後變換車道不當增加68%啦我是說的是那個造勢的件數啦沒有保持行車安全間隔這應該就是所謂的那個死角的問題增加65%啦由438件增加到722件啦然後我這樣子要求大車都要裝視野輔助系統"},{"start":9911.316,"end":9935.626,"text":"裝了幾年?六七年了後來啊去年啊交通部跟我答覆啦要裝800部啦今年啊給你們準備800啦一直跳票啦是不是這樣子原本是說2400台給我打三折從2400台降到800台那800台到今年也只裝了241台"},{"start":9938.395,"end":9964.549,"text":"你當時要做的這個部分跟委員報告一下就是到上禮拜裝了262台然後3月底要求裝到400台那到4月底會裝到這800台交通部自己打折喔原本你的計畫是2400台要裝喔對不對後來呢3年來只裝了所謂目標變為800台結果只裝了240幾台那我問你全台灣有多少多台的大車跟委員報告全台灣有18萬輛大車啦"},{"start":9970.132,"end":9987.583,"text":"為什麼大家持續的要求每次發生車禍慘劇那交通部都說要檢討你看一下那個表每年死傷人數車禍的件數每年都增加那你怎麼處理"},{"start":9989.437,"end":9991.959,"text":"大車每一次肇事都是非死即傷都非常慘重有那麼多的悲劇發生"},{"start":10011.431,"end":10032.225,"text":"那你們交通部針對這個問題我們在立法院追了那麼多年你提出那麼多計畫也花了那麼多錢甚至於連這個視野補助系統還產生一個什麼獨一無二八合一還要自己研發然後呢說試驗要2400也做不到研發時間拖了很久然後要裝的車輛數啊"},{"start":10033.946,"end":10049.021,"text":"自己降低2000降到800有執行不了然後你看每年發生件數死傷人數持續增加部長你這部你敢督促一下我的督促我想說現在821弄好了就趕快加速來安裝加速"},{"start":10051.723,"end":10053.063,"text":"你不要跟我打蛋就好啦"},{"start":10081.549,"end":10096.887,"text":"離島條例你一定要幫忙吼好下一位請秋洛華委員發言好謝謝主席有請部長好部長請"},{"start":10104.042,"end":10106.183,"text":"博士長好,希望博士長瞭解"},{"start":10133.822,"end":10152.964,"text":"國際旅客目標不變那東部重大交通建設能推動的話那對台灣東部的觀光也有助益希望部長能夠了解是我想謝謝邱委員我想一樣就是說對於花東今天已經列出在我們報告裡很多建設每一個建設我們都積極進行"},{"start":10153.985,"end":10171.118,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10171.138,"end":10195.795,"text":"好那這邊本席今天要問今年清明年假四天的連續假期不管是返鄉還是掃墓出遊都會使交通運輸量大增那希望交通部能檢視輸運的能量那盡可能滿足滿足我們民眾的運輸需求之外也要提升交通安全那今年的輸運還有要補充的嗎有關雙鐵還有客運的部分的訂票情形交通部有掌握了嗎是"},{"start":10196.736,"end":10222.864,"text":"那個跟委員說明齁 那個慶兵節的聯繫計畫是跟其他的節日不一樣就是說很多人會提前回去掃墓所以我們的慶兵節的輸入計畫是提早兩個禮拜開始事實上應該上個禮拜六就開始了就已經開始進行我們的這些相關包括閘道移控、閘道封閉等等的還有包括一些地區道路的疏導這個部分我們已經在進行中了"},{"start":10225.417,"end":10246.209,"text":"有建議去年中秋的輸入人潮多嘛那造成民眾苦等然後大排長龍的情形很多旅客現在寧願選擇搭高鐵也不搭台鐵那台鐵局今年也在正式改制掛牌國營台鐵公司那台鐵公司應該帶來新格局新氣象那是否能夠提升旅客的信心"},{"start":10247.51,"end":10262.607,"text":"我們事實上那個改制公司今天1月1號以後我看他們董事長總經理都是到處跟員工做很多的相關在安全意義上的討論我是覺得整個那個活力我已經看出來了"},{"start":10263.408,"end":10285.702,"text":"市民們確實分擔連續假期還有我們那個西部交通兼輸運輸的重責嗎?對,他們是扮演很重要的角色,尤其是中短途的部分是扮演很重要的角色那這部分當然就是說對台鐵的服務品質跟準點這部分是我們的確要繼續加強的部分這個部分也請這個台鐵公司已經盡力在這個執行"},{"start":10289.468,"end":10296.717,"text":"有關3月20日的檢討報告接下來出入境旅客將會大增有沒有做好準備?"},{"start":10299.748,"end":10320.773,"text":"0303主要是這個跑道的修組然後當然接下來現在03現在是南跑道然後北跑道在今年的第4季可能會修組那我們已經做過相當多的檢討我們希望把這些檢討的這些意見把它納入我們SOP裡面"},{"start":10321.493,"end":10349.258,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10350.714,"end":10367.787,"text":"臺鐵還是臺鐵臺鐵對就是不管是鐵公路啦如果有些比如說這個外務入侵比如人入侵等等的發生一些狀況在臺鐵也有他的標準作為程序比如說如果中斷的時候他的"},{"start":10368.687,"end":10381.815,"text":"這個接駁車就會開始來執行那公路高速公路的部分就是發生事故是造成研製很重要的原因他們在相關的偷調還有分區的駐點這部分也都會加強"},{"start":10383.615,"end":10401.332,"text":"3週五電價確定漲價部長已經證實了臺鐵公司在討論票價方案外那大眾運輸工具也可能調漲那TPAS的票價不變那國道客運如果漲價短途由TPAS月票吸收沒錯吧那中長途會做部分補貼那請問補貼的部分會動用什麼預算"},{"start":10405.416,"end":10420.925,"text":"我們供應計劃,就是我們現在在供應計劃有對於像比如說桃園的這些公車的虧損補貼、購車補貼那我們就用這個預算來支持這樣,所以本身就有一個計劃在做本身就有一個計劃不用再新批一個計劃這樣"},{"start":10423.208,"end":10423.949,"text":"臺北的部分也會跟著提升嗎?"},{"start":10451.048,"end":10472.904,"text":"會,我們因為台鐵的票價其實很久都沒有調整那我們在這一次這個我們的研議中我們會把我們確保安全跟提升服務都納進來是,那部長這邊我還有一個問題就是國道2號偵測中路交流道這個部分"},{"start":10477.225,"end":10492.617,"text":"我這邊補充報告就是說中路交道部目前可行性台灣市政府辦理的可行性評估報告已經報院合併中目前在等行政院最後的合併那這個部分的話因為是當時台灣市政府有承諾就是說他必須要配合中路的那個區政計畫來"},{"start":10495.88,"end":10518.867,"text":"取得他的用地之後再提供雜道來施工所以我們這個工程啊未來會辦理那個整個一個規劃設計之後會等待就是說他的用地提供之後我們才可以來辦因為有搭配的包括聯絡道路一起來做起來所以是用地取得之後確定之後再做核定不是可行性的部分可以先核定OK那預計什麼時候可以核定一定要等他用地取得之後"},{"start":10519.207,"end":10524.572,"text":"那預計我們不知道因為他看桃園市政府看桃園市政府OK好好謝謝邱若驊委員下一位請許祝傑委員發言"},{"start":10547.862,"end":10570.867,"text":"謝謝主席,我們還是請部長,部長辛苦啦辛苦齁,那個剛軍縣委員有問到的齁正好我有一些疑問,就是說目前我們這個大型車"},{"start":10573.993,"end":10600.111,"text":"有民間自己裝的我們補助的有3型嘛然後呢這個我們交通部推動的大型車整合這8項主動預警輔助系統現在的完成的狀況這兩個看起來就是跟實際上在防範車禍的機會好像效率還有一大段的距離這個部分是不是交通部有什麼規劃"},{"start":10602.213,"end":10627.809,"text":"的確一開始的補助是比較被動式的啦被動式就是駕駛自己看螢幕那現在開始就是 前面這三型其實都是民間自己裝的嘛那我們有補助4千跟補助1千嘛對對對 這個是前面這三型 這比較是被動式對 你要自己看螢幕啦對 所以第一行的是因為你看第一行90倍 點2%正確啦因為你們有補多少錢啦"},{"start":10632.11,"end":10653.884,"text":"跟委員報告一下前面三行當時補助就是法規要強制全部都要安裝所以在這個法規強制實施之前先補助所以這個是現在每一部車都要有的那是第一行啊第一行98%那第二行跟第三行沒有啊"},{"start":10654.964,"end":10671.208,"text":"第二型跟第三型的功能是含括在這個第一型裡面等於說是它是比第一型是最基本的然後如果說這個業者要裝比較好的那基本上也是對因為第一型你要自己看螢幕嘛第二型它會有雷達警示系統告訴你說有狀況嘛"},{"start":10674.218,"end":10701.439,"text":"所以第一型你和司機要是自己開車要自己開檸檬有時候不小心那你至少第二型他有通知嘛那所以第二型就可以減少很多因為我們現在看就是大型車輛現在的車禍的案件連續5年都超過1萬人這個狀況其實是蠻嚴重的那我們真的是要怎麼樣去避免所以剛剛軍縣也提到就是說我們現在大型車現在大概有多少輛"},{"start":10702.574,"end":10719.043,"text":"跟我們報告一下如果說把大貨車架進來跟大客車的話大概這個就是十七八萬輛十七八萬嘛那你看喔我們交通部推的這八項主動預警輔助系統這個是包括前面三行的功能都有包括進來嘛對不對"},{"start":10720.665,"end":10736.129,"text":"對 然後還有就是說前面三型的部分只能算就是一項功能啦那其他的部分的話還有增加其他的就這三型的基本款的他都包括在這8項裡面嘛對不對所以你看我們112年預計要裝2400輛然後呢今年3月底想要完成800輛所以到現在只裝了241輛這個是不是這個數據對不對"},{"start":10750.699,"end":10765.184,"text":"是大概到3月24日是到262這個是更新的這個數字262好沒關係你看喔這個數據比例差非常的多那我們交通部花了3.3億研發啦"},{"start":10767.976,"end":10778.392,"text":"那如果說我們把這18萬輛通通裝的因為當時研發再加上安裝多了一些研發的經費嘛對不對那現在如果純粹安裝這18萬輛大概要多少錢"},{"start":10783.031,"end":10802.675,"text":"跟委員報告下前面那個2400輛跟3.3億的部分當時就是大概就是希望說3.3億來補助三家業者來開發到完成系統之後每一家可以這個安裝這個800輛所以對啦因為當時是包括研發嘛對不對那後來這個因為只有一家廠商來投標所以後來預算從3.3調整成這一個1.3億多少1.3億1.3億對對那2400輛1.3億800輛"},{"start":10812.797,"end":10838.778,"text":"8百輛 1.3億所以這個18萬輛要多少錢?跟委員報告一下因為這個800輛的部分那個是現在在做系統測試的研發那如果說假設這個就是說這個系統這個是OK的話那就是具有成效的一個效應的話未來會把這個標準轉換成產業的標準那轉換成產業標準那國內有興趣的業者都可以去投入生產"},{"start":10839.358,"end":10857.686,"text":"那如果說按照這個八合一要去補助18萬量的話我們不用講那麼仔細現在大概我如果18萬這八項通通要安裝大概要多少錢大概初步算起來應該將近18億因為這個一套系統大概18億對不對大概10萬多部長你認為這個有多少錢"},{"start":10861.707,"end":10884.834,"text":"我覺得主動式的確在過去被動式有說自己沒看到所以主動式是而且他這次821是這樣他的想法是說因為我以後要裝很多裝置進去嘛對阿大家都要在那裡勘算阿所以就說這個新的這個主動疫情八項的這個算是蠻好的嘛對就把它整合阿現在已經完成了嘛是是是研發完成了嘛那測試試用也OK嘛"},{"start":10887.635,"end":10897.718,"text":"所以現在在安裝這800輛嘛對不對車輛一直做安裝啦現在開始安裝現在在做800輛嘛那其實你看喔5年每一年死傷都超過1萬人這1萬人的死傷會造成多少的家庭那如果是10百億啦10百億可以每一年這10萬的死傷的啦變成100好了啦"},{"start":10918.892,"end":10929.636,"text":"應該是很值得。所以我現在就是說要很語重心長的跟交通部呼籲。18個開這個錢,很多錢都在開了啦。這可以讓大型車全面安裝齁。"},{"start":10934.977,"end":10960.175,"text":"那把這個大型車尤其是燈頭外角啦,齁,那疊疊恰好,那弄到高過,齁,那真的是你真的是不堪入目啦,齁那所以這個部分如果我要全部安裝,那交通部現在的規劃可不可行,或者是大概多久可以完成,我們可以有一個進度的推估"},{"start":10961.345,"end":10983.311,"text":"市長跟委員報告我想如果現在是2400輛800輛800輛就是看它實質的成效怎麼樣如果好的話我們應該來爭取另外一筆預算來來全面安裝對我的意思就是這樣就是說現在因為本來是研發加安裝嘛那現在其實真的是我因為我算一算不是很多錢啊"},{"start":10985.222,"end":10989.305,"text":"花這18億可以讓每年一萬個車禍一萬人的車禍可以減少我們假設這一套系統有效的話"},{"start":10998.089,"end":11019.263,"text":"有可能啦但是你會驚很多幾乎把所有的大型車的車禍可以減少掉所以我覺得這個真的是相當重要那請交通部是不是研議一個規劃大概什麼時候可以給我一個規劃就是說我們這樣子的一個完安裝之後測試成功進度大概什麼時候"},{"start":11020.163,"end":11021.544,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員下一位請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11061.139,"end":11083.413,"text":"主席,各位委員,有請部長。好,請部長。好,部長好。政委好。抱歉了。好。"},{"start":11084.721,"end":11113.215,"text":"部長你看我們這個這是2020年的一個資料台灣的快速公路總共有17條全部都在西部全部都在西部這是三年多前的資料這三年多來應該還有繼續我看每一次經過都有在繼續做還有在增加所以這個部分就花蓮台東而言"},{"start":11114.298,"end":11129.73,"text":"真的是不知道怎麼形容我們看今天交通部的報告你們希望放在花東第7發展條例的花東基金你們有去跟主計總書或國發會有溝通嗎?"},{"start":11132.455,"end":11137.459,"text":"這裡面你的報告提到憲法第70條律法院對於行政所提議算不得為增加自出之提議"},{"start":11162.52,"end":11187.786,"text":"本特別條例之立法恐產生立法前綱立行政前之憲政爭議你這邊還特別提到這個本條例竊有自愛拿行無法推動也是提到這個行政前憲政的分際今天我們不是直接在審查預算的時候去增加預算我們現在是在立法"},{"start":11189.693,"end":11217.532,"text":"律法院有律法的權利律法院有提案法律案的權利這個是非常非常的明確所以這個事要這樣的這樣去寫喔尤其是一個交通部來去寫這個齁你們有去跟法務部溝通過嗎 有嗎 有 有溝通過 那花東第7發展條例當初沒有行政院提案喔"},{"start":11219.158,"end":11248.339,"text":"侯部看清楚當初民進黨團提案國民黨黨團提案王庭生等20人提案東部7發展條例的草案也就是現在後來名稱協商的時候協商了4次王金平院長主持協商4次名稱改為花東第7發展條例當時沒有行政院版本"},{"start":11249.537,"end":11276.018,"text":"怎麼沒有說憲政分際怎麼沒有說違憲所以部分這個也不能怪你了因為你不是寫法律的啦如果是這樣前章基礎建設條例我有提案啊很多立委都有提案啊行政院固然有版本我們都有提案啊立法院都有提案啊從來就沒有人講說"},{"start":11277.95,"end":11303.13,"text":"因為這是法律的提案啊 法律的提案哪一條 很多法律的提案都會涉及到經費啊 都會涉及到經費 所以這個不要輕易的 尤其是由交通部來講 要講的就請法務部來講 他勇敢的講 我就不相信他敢講 所以這個部分啊 這裡面很多的建特別條例"},{"start":11303.814,"end":11333.114,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11333.234,"end":11350.442,"text":"全國的個別計劃每個縣市的計劃都很重要那這個部分過去都是個案計劃都是透過剛才談到可行性還有綜合規劃環評我想委員也非常清楚我在這邊再提一次就是說整個花東快速大陸事實上我們沒有反對"},{"start":11351.883,"end":11372.092,"text":"甚至如果他評估可行我們會支持加速只是現在我已經進行到8月就提出可行性報告8月事實上台東也剛辦完公聽會而已我是覺得就讓這個程序去走是最符合的部長你要謝謝我們立法院幫你找財源"},{"start":11374.206,"end":11400.35,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11402.008,"end":11402.308,"text":"好請部長好請部長"},{"start":11421.673,"end":11440.315,"text":"部長你好我剛剛主要是要提個東西啦就是因為剛剛我一來的時候我在下面聽了很久那我聽到有個地方我覺得聽了我覺得有點意見就是說你在這邊有點教訓那個傅崐萁總召嘛你認為說今天提的這些東西違憲"},{"start":11441.596,"end":11466.596,"text":"那我是想我是覺得有一個奇怪地方啦因為剛好小弟有念過幾年法律那剛剛法務部也說了他沒有他沒有跟你們定位說這個到底是到底是法律還是預算案嘛那這是等於是就是等於他就是告訴我們這是你自己認為說這個違憲是因為我們那個立法委員管到你們預算案的部分那我想請問一下"},{"start":11468.431,"end":11482.696,"text":"來我們看一下這個當年立法民進黨團他也曾經提過在那個就是剛剛那個委員說的東部發言條例的時候我們也有提到這個500億元的"},{"start":11486.602,"end":11510.172,"text":"預算設置就是發展基金的部分那為什麼當年這個沒問題如果照你這樣講的話那當年民進黨就違憲了啊對不對所以我不懂說為什麼你說這個是違憲啊那再來剛剛那個油耗委員又提到特殊傳染病那個特殊條例那你也提到說因為這個是緊急的關係所以要用到這個特殊傳染病條例"},{"start":11511.88,"end":11537.135,"text":"事實上這個東西當年民進黨也是在裡面提了一個好像什麼臨時動議什麼把它加到2000億那這時候為什麼又沒有人說這個是違憲那如果照這樣講的話你是不是要回去跟你們的長官陳建仁講說要趕快出來提四限案因為這幾個條例全部都違憲包括前瞻預算也違憲啊那前瞻預算到底是哪裡緊急的我也搞不懂那為什麼這些東西"},{"start":11538.789,"end":11562.632,"text":"立法院這邊都可以做那現在提一個這個你就認為說這個違憲違反五權分立那再來啦剛剛又很多人提到說有很多東部的建設都是馬英九不同意然後蔡英文才在做那我必須講一個當年在那個前瞻預算的時候其實那個徐縣長有要求要把"},{"start":11563.851,"end":11586.521,"text":"花東快要把它納入那個前瞻但是在立法院是被否決的齁來我應該要準備一張powerpoint在立法院被否決的阿所以說奇怪那到底是誰不支持東部的建設到底誰不支持東部的建設齁所以說我覺得不要這樣啦一個中央廚房產出來的產品然後再加上你們這些官員"},{"start":11588.018,"end":11614.011,"text":"動不動選舉的時候就是膝蓋反射選舉就喊抗中保台談法案的時候就講你違憲亂政這全部變成膝蓋反射而已啦我講這就沒有意思了我剛剛這個是在打臉你今天早上對另外兩個委員的一些回答第一個沒有違憲的問題如果違憲那當初民進黨團提的也違憲那前瞻預算什麼都違憲了嘛齁那"},{"start":11615.666,"end":11636.258,"text":"我是要答點你這幾個點我認為我認為我念過幾年法律我必須告訴你不是這樣子那再來我想提一個東西我們賴清德副總統他在去年12月21日在宜蘭造勢的時候他有提過就希望說對宜蘭出入有方便"},{"start":11637.608,"end":11650.822,"text":"他有提到要推動高鐵延伸到宜蘭還有什麼蘇花公路安全提升這幾個計畫那我想請問一下高鐵延伸到宜蘭這部分你們目前進度是怎麼樣現在在做二階環評這二階環評"},{"start":11654.867,"end":11670.645,"text":"我必須在這邊提醒一下就是宜蘭其實在那個竹科管理局裡面他們所管理的幾個地方目前宜蘭的科學園區它的成長是最快的那你們也要注意一下這個宜蘭平原那邊的發展"},{"start":11671.306,"end":11695.111,"text":"而且你要知道像我去宜蘭從宜蘭假日回來不但有高承載而且會大塞車也就是說這交通力量已經不足了不足因應了所以你要讓宜蘭能夠好好的發展你要讓那邊科學園區他竟然已經表現得這麼亮眼了你要讓他繼續的亮眼下去你要知道產業用電是產業之母但交通是產業之父"},{"start":11695.751,"end":11695.891,"text":"我請問一下"},{"start":11721.57,"end":11741.516,"text":"高鐵延伸到宜蘭這個政策到底你們會不會讓他實現?因為現在做二階環評我們是要推動的然後剛剛委員提到現在端點就在縣政中心整個有一個特定區計畫也在進行跟縣政府在討論我想高鐵的北延或南延都是我們這個政策建設基礎在推動"},{"start":11742.637,"end":11768.056,"text":"好那最後我就跟奉勸一下行政機關千萬不要提了什麼東西就說違憲不要動不動拿違反五權分立來修理這一立法委員不是大家都沒有念書啊我們都有念過幾年法律所以這個東西有沒有違憲你從歷史上面提過的東西來看你從五權分立的憲法的精神上面來看這個東西都沒有違憲好謝謝好謝謝我們吳宗憲委員"},{"start":11773.431,"end":11773.672,"text":"王國才部長"},{"start":11790.441,"end":11794.963,"text":"臺北市捷運增加了多支出3億以上,今年的漲幅越高更高了,所以臺北捷運會增加到5.6億。"},{"start":11816.09,"end":11838.157,"text":" 那麼九月份搞不好還會再漲電價 所以也不曉得到時候以台北捷運來說還會增加多少 那麼其實不只台北市捷運 包含台中捷運 高雄捷運 桃捷 高鐵 台鐵 事實上這些大眾運輸全部都因為電價的大幅調升而使他們的營運成本大幅的提高"},{"start":11838.857,"end":11863.999,"text":"所以我在這邊還是要幫北捷來請命雖然我知道在前兩天有人問院長院長說好像不會去動漲或者是補貼給我們這些城市捷運我想請問一下部長到目前為止有關於大宗運輸的部分是不是有可能去採取動漲或者是補貼票價"},{"start":11865.46,"end":11869.602,"text":"臺北捷運最後調靠票價,但是因為我們TPAS完全差價補貼,這個意思是說"},{"start":11881.368,"end":11905.961,"text":"所造成的結果是我們補貼館給臺北市這個捷運公司更多但是沒有使用TPAS的人呢?並不是所有的人都使用TPAS啊對 所以我意思說現在臺北市已經有八十幾萬啊大概都使用TPAS我是覺得說如果在那種狀況下用TPAS就不會完全不會受影響補貼的部分所以你認為你只補貼TPAS其他的不補貼好"},{"start":11908.102,"end":11929.614,"text":"這一點我還是希望能夠採取動長的方式你只不過左口袋右口袋但是你如果動長的話就會使得所有的捷運族都能夠受惠那麼因為事實上很多的其他的捷運事實上也並不是都有TPAS另外我要請教一個比較重要的院長說高鐵不會漲是不是"},{"start":11933.747,"end":11941.732,"text":"高鐵即將提出來因為按照你們交通部跟高鐵的合約按照物價指數聯動事實上他今年是要準備調漲的"},{"start":11944.737,"end":11958.943,"text":"他叫做核電基本費率但是我們一般比如說過去高鐵提過基本費因為我的時間非常有限票價不一定會漲所以不一定會漲但是可能會漲按照因為他現在的物價指數已經超過5%了"},{"start":11962.765,"end":11988.641,"text":"所以他們現在已經在計算而且說這樣算起來北高的部分可能最高最高高可以增加到230塊當然也許合定到你們這邊也許不會合定給他們票價不會合定那麼高所以仍然有漲價的可能跟空間先他提出來啦因為我是覺得高鐵工資所以高鐵不代表絕對不會漲另外公務客運的部分公務客運業者也跟你們申請大概是78到23%"},{"start":11990.962,"end":12005.191,"text":"公路客運的部分也完全不會漲嗎?現在公路客運我們是覺得他現在有面臨到經營的困境所以我個人是覺得可以讓他漲但是我們現在處理的方式第一個當然短途要T-pass"},{"start":12005.911,"end":12026.679,"text":"中長途的部分我們做部分的補貼給他所以他對於長的部分就可以長少一點長少一點所以他們仍然可能因為你不讓他長最後倒楣的就是偏遠地區他一定把不賺錢甚至虧損的就把它砍掉所以對於偏遠地區的民眾事實上他就是不是間接受害他直接受害"},{"start":12027.739,"end":12035.889,"text":"所以這樣看起來高鐵仍然有可能漲價公路客運的部分也有可能漲價只是你們會再去再做國運的補貼讓那個票價不要漲太高"},{"start":12040.249,"end":12052.655,"text":"我在最後仍然是去請命如果今天我們要達到2050的淨零排放更不要說像我們電動車那個賴總統馬上就要上任啊他當時在選前說他在2030年要怎麼樣推動電動車要怎麼樣把電動車產業電動車產業成為我們下一個什麼明星產業等等可是現在大家都在剉啦"},{"start":12064.401,"end":12088.187,"text":"因為你馬上調整電價大幅調整電價而且還不排除今年還可能二度調整電價在這樣的狀況之下其實真的影響的層面非常非常廣但是針對大眾捷運的部分大眾運輸的部分我認為你們要採取動漲或補貼的方式得證話哪裡說政府政府今天要做淨零排檔但是另外一方面又讓大眾運輸他們經營的這麼困難這完全背道而馳好不好"},{"start":12092.168,"end":12092.648,"text":"王宏威委員"},{"start":12120.239,"end":12133.038,"text":"好,那麻煩我們羅志強委員主席有請部長好,部長麻煩"},{"start":12140.044,"end":12155.182,"text":"政府對於花東建設的規劃都在進行當中這是草野共識一定把花東建設做得更好更重要是很感佩韓國瑜院長爭取花東人民的福利你知道這句話是誰說的嗎"},{"start":12157.584,"end":12177.346,"text":"剛才不是韓院長說的嗎是陳建仁院長說的他說他非常感佩韓國瑜院長爭取花東人民的福利那我想請教您對於這一份所謂對花東人民的關心跟關切的感佩你也覺得很感佩嗎對於韓國瑜院長"},{"start":12178.807,"end":12195.922,"text":"我是覺得我們都支持花東的建設其實過去在東部的建設是比較少的我個人也很支持如果您支持您也感佩我覺得就應該好好聽聽花東人的心聲那我跟這個部長說明一下我就是花蓮出生的小孩"},{"start":12197.063,"end":12225.878,"text":"我父親是個工人那以前在花蓮的時候不管是中橫的開路還有同門的發電廠還有每逢這個風災天災地震那花蓮的路就會攤方那我父親就是要隨著工班去清理土方那所以因此我父親還曾經親眼目睹他的工班的同僚就是因為攤方直接被捲到山谷底下那個還是他結拜兄弟"},{"start":12226.758,"end":12253.833,"text":"親眼目睹他被捲下去屍骨無存找不到人也找不到那當然是那個年代所以當時安全回家就是我父親每次出門最大的願望所以我要想就請部長先去體會一下體會一下花東的民眾對於所謂的我們能夠給花東的民眾一個安全回家的路這樣的心聲"},{"start":12255.194,"end":12280.891,"text":"那我就來想說給花蓮安全回家的路是總統的責任這句話你應該聽過吧這是蔡英文總統說的都支持對對好那我想請教一下那我剛剛看了很多的一些討論我想請教一下對於花東快速花東快的條例我想請教您您是反對花東快還是反對花東快的條例呢"},{"start":12282.428,"end":12305.843,"text":"我是覺得花東快速公路現在我們在進行中已在做可行性也快完成了我是覺得所以你支持花東快嗎我真的不反對但是就評估了結果現在就是說已經走到8月就可行就出來的時候不需要去弄一個特別條例啦因為特別條例變成每個個案計畫通通所以是你個人覺得不需要弄一個特別條例嗎"},{"start":12306.343,"end":12320.515,"text":"我個人是覺得我們都支持現在也在做這個可行性評估了那我跟部長一個轉換一個建設性的想法好不好事實上如果你在花東快你的可行性評估過去你也知道很多的包括總統當選人"},{"start":12322.336,"end":12342.009,"text":"包括在台東的民進黨的立委甚至包括很多這些你的總統副總統其實都表達對於花東快的一個支持嘛 對不對但這麼多年過去花東快還在可行性評估啊有沒有發現這個速度會不會就已經是個落差呢"},{"start":12342.871,"end":12354.171,"text":"因為一開始是評估在105的決定是不進行了那我們後來是把它重啟所以為什麼講說有建設性的一個角度可以給部長參考"},{"start":12355.819,"end":12380.165,"text":"花東快的條例其實你不如當作是一個對花東快對政府的一個支持後盾跟鼓勵因為我們有立法作為後盾甚至也幫你思考裁員事實上就是希望說今天不要又是一拖二拖三拖四拖讓我們花東的民眾等不到一個安全回家的路阿那更重要最後一點我還是做一點提醒阿"},{"start":12381.005,"end":12402.131,"text":"所謂的有沒有違憲的問題可能不是部長你來決定因為你不是大法官所以在這邊立法院的殿堂上我覺得不要輕易說違憲如果說你覺得有違憲的疑慮的話行政院你自然可以去提大法官會議解釋但不要在立法殿堂上講違憲這件事情以上好謝謝羅志強委員"},{"start":12412.349,"end":12421.004,"text":"好接下來請侯孟楷委員好主席謝謝麻煩請王國才部長好部長麻煩"},{"start":12427.59,"end":12454.293,"text":"市長今天本期以及聽到很多的委員都一直在講其實我一直講說交通建設不分藍綠不分草野共同為地方爭取建設並且能夠讓大家都有不管是安全回家的路不管是更促進觀光發展就業我想這都是大家共同樂見所以到底我們現在政府部門對於花東快速公路的建設的態度是正向還是負向"},{"start":12454.81,"end":12481.346,"text":"現在我們是所以我們在做可行性最近也辦了花蓮跟台東的公聽會所以也不會去阻擋也應該是積極努力的來推動但是要尊重審查的過程當然要尊重審查過程而且是專業評估嘛但更重要的是我想請教有沒有評估過說花東快如果說真的要建的話你覺得是建公路的成本比較低還是建鐵路高鐵的成本比較低"},{"start":12484.895,"end":12509.455,"text":"兩個都不低啊但是誰比較低公路比較低還是高鐵的成本比較低應該高鐵比較貴高鐵比較貴嘛那請容許本席提醒過2021年王國才部長曾經喊過環島高鐵不是夢2021年你喊過環島高鐵不是夢當時本席就在交通委員會就有提過說問有沒有評估過到底多少經費"},{"start":12510.977,"end":12532.336,"text":"當時你的回答是沒有評估過不知道多少經費但是不是夢那個是未來式所以本席在這個委員會裡面就提出來就說當時討論高鐵從南港拉到宜蘭就要花1700多億環島高鐵需要多少的一個預算王國才回應說高鐵環島沒有任何評估但是是要為未來規劃留下目標跟可行性"},{"start":12532.876,"end":12561.281,"text":"所以一樣的道理如果說今天王國才部長在2021年都喊過說環島高鐵不是夢的話那本席比較務實的做就是應該要先做快速公路的一個建設不要說每一次就是政府可以大傻逼政府可以做夢但是一般的民眾或是地方的鄉親也一個最基本安全回家的路都不行雙重標準是國人沒有辦法接受的部長你認同嗎是"},{"start":12563.182,"end":12587.263,"text":"我支持環島高鐵環島但是他是一段一段的評估因為我想委員你自己的計畫每一項也是經過這個過程所以你兩個都支持但是你也講出來了嘛如果說以預算來講的話花東快速公路相對來說他的預算會比較低所以說以可行性來說是不是花東快速道路比環島高鐵還要來的可行"},{"start":12588.223,"end":12612.948,"text":"現在不用比較這個我意思說這不是不用比較問題是因為國人想要知道是政府的態度啊既然政府已經開宗明義拉的那麼高的說環島高鐵那個時候的蘇內閣還講環島高鐵不是夢還說鼓勵政府官員要勇敢追夢逐夢那你交通部長都已經講說環島高鐵了那麼高的一個目標你都已經喊了結果現在花東快速公路好像讓外界覺得是說你是三推四推五推"},{"start":12613.268,"end":12613.308,"text":"港澳"},{"start":12640.316,"end":12665.019,"text":"香港嘛 對不對香港最多嘛77.9萬人第二名是日本第三名是韓國嘛 對不對所以你現在有提到一個大家會講是說奇怪怎麼會突然我們的交通部的大家長觀光業的大家長我們的王國才部長居然講是說香港叫大家不要去了這樣子是只管政治正確而不管觀光業的死活"},{"start":12665.78,"end":12694.719,"text":"如果說他是佔我們來台的旅客的第一名那因為聽到我們現在的交通部長講這個話會不會連帶造成有可能香港的旅客也不想來到台灣那一天在立法院問我是說香港基本法23條有類似怎麼樣的行為問我什麼狀況我是說如果有這些行為有可能觸底觸這個基本法23條我是覺得有這種風險就不要去我不是叫大家不要去"},{"start":12695.399,"end":12724.426,"text":"有抵觸或是這樣要不要發旅遊事蹟我們要不要發旅遊事蹟現在還不到啊但是因為他已經講很清楚了所以說這是不是一個這是不是一個失言啊不是是部長我講很清楚我現在很清楚不是國人看到以及媒體看到還有大家看到會覺得是說部長居然叫大家不要去香港但是香港明明就是我們現在2023年來台旅客的第一名會不會是雙重標準有觸法的可能的行為"},{"start":12725.166,"end":12740.923,"text":"那這樣子是不是到世界各國你也要講說每一個國家有不同的法令只要有處罰的可能你都要提醒大家到新加坡有可能他們的地鐵不能吃口香糖所以說有處罰的可能我們提醒大家"},{"start":12741.544,"end":12768.458,"text":"因為我身為其他國家有其他國家的風土民情不同的考量所以你要提醒大家這是政治凌駕專業我們的觀光現在已經非常的辛苦部長我必須再一次的為觀光業來請命觀光旅遊住宿飯店餐飲運輸在過去疫情來的時候真的都是叫苦連天現在好不容易撐過疫情了但是我們現在的觀光業"},{"start":12770.579,"end":12797.371,"text":"還在苦等我們的政府好好的鼓勵的時候現在我們的部長又講這樣的話會不會造成雪上加霜我已經解釋過會不會讓大家誤解所以其實本席現在是想要給你一個機會讓你去講說你那天是失言其實不是這麼一回事我講很清楚有觸法的行為我希望他不要去那這樣子來本席直接問你一句你是不是鼓勵國人正常的旅遊交流不管是去香港不管是去世界國家"},{"start":12797.871,"end":12822.053,"text":"你都鼓勵?對,如果沒有處法基本上23條當然OK不是,國人當然不會平白無辜到任何地方去處當地的法令嘛現在本席要問的是說你是不是鼓勵正常教育還有就是不要讓香港的朋友誤會我們不鼓勵我們台灣的旅客去香港我們也歡迎香港朋友來台灣是,我是正面,我就是這樣,是,就是給您講一遍"},{"start":12825.253,"end":12848.788,"text":"不管是兩岸或是港澳我都歡迎互相往來那剛才談到了我上次談到不要去是說有處罰的可能你不能去突然被抓去了所以我是說這種最好不要去我建議是這樣是處處他的處抵觸他的這個基本法是專業歸專業有一些政治意識形態立場我一直在這個委員會我常常強調"},{"start":12849.608,"end":12850.888,"text":"謝謝紅夢開委員接下來請我們高金素美委員"},{"start":12884.473,"end":12886.979,"text":"謝謝主席我們要請部長好謝謝部長麻煩"},{"start":12891.41,"end":12920.096,"text":"部長好,對於今天那花東快速公路的建設特別條例其實你在你的報告裡面已經做了結論了你的結論是說依據目前公共建設推動的評估程序程序不僅開發過程需要兼顧程序正義也要確保花東地區環境人文的永續發展所以請求大院委員審慎考量必能基於憲政分際充分尊重行政權的完整性不宜善為增加預算支出"},{"start":12920.876,"end":12938.91,"text":"本條例確實有自愛難行之處所以是不要囉是吧跟你剛剛講的8月份有可行性蘋果好像有一點點的邏輯不同但是我覺得花東快速公路我還是支持他繼續推行好謝謝那我就跟您說我接下來告訴你這個"},{"start":12940.211,"end":12962.329,"text":"今天對於花東的人民需要一個安全回家的歷史性的跟你做一個交流跟溝通跟告知您我覺得好的政策對人民有利的應該就要持續來支持這是政府存在的需要跟必要也是人民繳納稅前應該要予以來完成的看一下1990年2月也就是34年前"},{"start":12964.811,"end":12988.705,"text":"行政院就已經合定了改善交通全盤計劃然後把舒花高速公路跟花東高速公路列為環保高速公路網的發展計劃之一也就是34年前我們的政府就已經看到了前瞻的東西34年過去了這個行政院合定的東部最重要的交通建設還停擺著然後呢這個行政院合定"},{"start":12989.705,"end":12990.866,"text":"而花東公路更毫無訊息。"},{"start":13006.252,"end":13020.023,"text":"2007年行政院又合訂了東部永續發展綱要計劃以非常華麗的遲早來宣誓說什麼東部地區是台灣最後一塊的淨土東部的發展不可以追逐西部的模式喔"},{"start":13021.304,"end":13036.313,"text":"拜託白話文就是西部有高鐵東部就不要有西部有高速公路東部就不能有西部有快速道路東部就不能有因為不可以追逐西部的魔術然後取而代之的是什麼建設東部是具有"},{"start":13037.421,"end":13063.738,"text":"多元文化特質自然生態景觀優質生活環境跟國際級的觀光景點的區域永續發展典範然後要成為這個大家所關注的議題講得非常好聽喔好像就是沒有安全回家的路所以我的解釋是說沒有安全回家的路花東地區每一次被人家關注的議題就是非常大的重要的交通事故"},{"start":13064.418,"end":13086.784,"text":"還有買不到車票或者是現在的血稅塞車再來看一下2011年政府為了要再度重視我們花東居民然後又把原本的東部永續發展綱要計畫提升為法律未接的花東地區發展條例然後規定我們的政府呢要以10年的時間撥400億好多錢喔看來"},{"start":13089.565,"end":13107.372,"text":"不是沒有錢啊政府也有錢啊然後你們這400億要作為什麼呢觀光、文化、醫療、社福、交通還有基礎建設所以你今天的報告裡面花東的非常多的交通的基礎建設不是沒有錢啊動不動就是2000多億動不動就是3000多億"},{"start":13110.533,"end":13128.365,"text":"所以沒有預算沒有什麽都不是重要的而是政府的決策到底我們再來看一下花東地區提出第4期也就是113年到116年綜合發展實施方案的現況分析他什麽分析呢第一從觀光客的觀點"},{"start":13129.426,"end":13157.925,"text":"疫情舒緩了之後我們看一下111年台東縣的旅客人數增加了280萬次成長了52.99%然後再從本地也就是花東居民的觀點不僅僅是原住民族族人偏鄉醫療資源是不足的長期以來都是花東居民深刻的痛我們檢視全國重度級的急救責任醫院的名單花蓮縣只有花蓮慈濟醫院有台東縣只有台東馬界醫院"},{"start":13159.706,"end":13159.806,"text":"﹚審查委員"},{"start":13180.251,"end":13192.025,"text":"這些都是你113年到116年綜合發展實施方案裏面的現況分析所以不管是從一類的角度不管是從交通的角度不管是政府應該做的事情部長您認為"},{"start":13193.68,"end":13194.481,"text":"我主要是在這個中長程計畫有我們的評估程序"},{"start":13213.773,"end":13239.07,"text":"然後呢你剛說8月份有個評估報告吧那現在已經是快要4月了那請問一下評估報告裡面的能不能宣布一下是什麼可是我又看到你今天的結論就是說是自愛難行無法推動嗎這是什麼意思你們再講清楚一點到底可不可以花東快速道路我們是支持他往前走做可行性可是他是違憲"},{"start":13240.151,"end":13269.193,"text":"立法委員提出來是違憲的道路建設沒有違憲是說不需要用這個條例我也不想用什麼違憲這個字但是就是不需要用這個條例我們現在就要進行了因為你如果個案就用這個條例是什麼意思每一項決議也要特別條例什麼每一個人都把他的個案計畫都是變成特別條例我是覺得這樣那你的意思說不要提條例但是呢花東快速公路是可以完全的甚至於高速公路也可以"},{"start":13270.449,"end":13272.271,"text":"我覺得官員在這邊部長我很尊重您520之後可能您能不能在這個位置上我們還不太清楚"},{"start":13286.703,"end":13306.822,"text":"所以您今天在這邊的態度其實也不能夠真正代表現在政府的態度或者是未來政府的態度但是我們今天任何一個民意在這邊告訴大家的是花東居民需要從34年前就已經設定花東居民需要一個快速安全回家的道路不要任何一個政府執政了之後態度都不一樣"},{"start":13307.543,"end":13326.579,"text":"我是一個無黨籍的沒有任何顏色的我也希望未來的政府應該是朝全民花東全民的利益而著想而不是說要選舉的時候提出什麼樣的政策要選舉結束以後又說自愛難行這是在欺騙花東的鄉親好嗎謝謝我們對建設都會支持謝謝好謝謝高金素美委員稍微請黃建斌委員發言"},{"start":13348.759,"end":13375.29,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我們請部長 部長請黃國賢好 部長好部長本期從2月1號開始擔任立委開始我就希望透過理性的監督友善的互動來讓不同政黨之間能夠找到平衡點"},{"start":13376.755,"end":13386.655,"text":"我們希望共同為我們台東人找到新的方向跟出路來解決台東的問題不過到目前看起來本席真的是太天真了齁"},{"start":13389.844,"end":13415.337,"text":"我們交通部針對花東快速建設特別條例給了很多的理由像是我們計劃路線達到174公里還有路廊行經至少11個原住民部落然後涉及特定的農業區花東中谷之安景觀區都蘭山地震帶立即遏定等等地質敏感的區域相關後續的環評作業程序敏感複雜容易造成與環保團體對立交通部又說"},{"start":13416.877,"end":13427.786,"text":"該項建設經費規模龐大依照憲法規定立法院對於行政院所提的預算不得為增加之誤這個剛剛在早上很多的委員都提到這件事情我聽了這麼多"},{"start":13432.213,"end":13455.76,"text":"我感覺就是交通部不要蓋花東快部長你要不要大聲的跟大家講一下到底我們台東要不要蓋我跟你們報告我們就是支持他進行所以現在就是在啟動可行性剛才談到經過嚴明部落還有一些環境影響地這是在我們目前的可行性報告有碰到但碰到不是代表不做"},{"start":13456.44,"end":13481.508,"text":"就是我們必須克服說環評裡面怎麼樣透過我們工程的辦法來做克服這個我們要來克服部長部長我們的花東快速條例重啟到底是為什麼我們從民國109年開始重啟評估經過4年的時間那這個月在台東要辦應該是要在台東要辦最後一場的這個可行性評估說明會嘛他們今天看到交通部長這個態度我感覺是不會蓋啦那只要花著民眾大數據錢來辦這樣4年評估部長"},{"start":13485.153,"end":13494.479,"text":"如果今天不蓋的話那這筆這個過程裡面的花費本期要求所有在參與蓋章計畫所有合張的主管都要自拍要自拍要發來處理這件事情"},{"start":13514.452,"end":13537.507,"text":"不知道我為什麼會很悲觀喔因為我們看到所有消息裡面都非常的不智我們民進黨的總召用違憲亂政這個四個字為這條路上色喔我沒有辦法接受啦齁如果過去這8年趕快進行我們沒有必要拼這個專法啦不要連溝通都不溝通就用這樣二一來阻止我們想要改變的這個動力啦齁"},{"start":13539.793,"end":13560.9,"text":"不過其實這個不行,他們可以來討論嘛,如果你認同,部長你也認同這個法嘛?不是,那個,各位法官,我再講一次齁,花東快速公路的建設,我們是支持它往前走,我們也在克服它的困難。現在齁,包括你剛剛提到的,那個是要談這個條例不必要,不是在反對花東快速道路,我再跟委員做一個報告。然後,"},{"start":13561.34,"end":13562.801,"text":"本席是來自臺東的委員臺東跟花蓮人一樣都是為這個國家付出"},{"start":13587.113,"end":13602.136,"text":"我們一樣為這個社會奉獻然後我們連最基本的要求一條快速完全的道路到現在都還看不到這盼望的終點在西部都在講交替、講交捷、講捷運的時候我們連一條快速道路都還沒有"},{"start":13603.991,"end":13630.937,"text":"部長,台東人,許讓我再講幾句話。部長,我想要跟部長反映的是,台東人的悲哀就是,我們台東人說,看不看事情,人命要比路長。剛剛高俊文提到的,台東花東的醫療缺乏,在場的每一個人,哪一個人因為你有家人、朋友、親戚、認識的人,因為交通的關係在就業路上中途不幸離開,有嗎?"},{"start":13634.25,"end":13652.698,"text":"我們要的就是一個公平的對待而已本期要求花東快速道路要趕快做不只到台東市而且要南延到泰馬里地區另外我們要求我們要重啓我們南岸高的這個評估跟研究因為這個才是真的打通台東任路二脈最重要的因素這邊邀請部長"},{"start":13655.834,"end":13684.662,"text":"如果真的站在花東人的立場希望你們能夠將心比心在場的各位將心比心各位我一樣我說我支持然後那個國六連升我們現在也在做地質地貿的一些調查也在進行中是部長牌子寫的一樣臺東不是次等公民我們沒有對不起這個國家也希望這個國家能夠照顧到這塊土地上住在偏鄉東部的這群人謝謝部長我完全贊成謝謝"},{"start":13686.598,"end":13689.36,"text":"好,謝謝黃建斌委員謝謝主席現在請吳志耀委員發言哈囉?謝謝主席,您先稍作我等那個電腦,謝謝主席吳聲勝有聲,是請黃部長的意思"},{"start":13718.42,"end":13720.464,"text":"那喝口水,好可以了,請部長"},{"start":13727.641,"end":13752.739,"text":"委員長謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例是不是合用特別條例的方式來處理我們要再次強調我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠不分黨派照顧我們的花蓮跟台東就照不來就照棄港所以說我們支持讓這個"},{"start":13754.961,"end":13781.476,"text":"快速公路的可行性評估往前走但是用特別條例他可能涉及違憲的疑慮如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告了違憲反而是讓這個建設的正當性沒有了所以我想請提案的委員真的不只要三思而後行要百思而後行我今天站在這裡我要說我一直想到我們的前立委未來的副總統蕭美琴"},{"start":13782.452,"end":13803.023,"text":"他在交通委員會對於花蓮的交通的爭取如何的努力但是蕭美琴不會用一個違憲的條例用一個限縮交通合理專業評估的方式來爭取建設不是嗎"},{"start":13803.803,"end":13830.474,"text":"所以照顧花蓮台當照部來交通建設就要照期剛好下一頁首先我要提醒喔這樣的一個提案今天的花東快速道路只是第一個2500億起跳後續還有國六的東延至少要8000億起跳第三個同樣是傅崐萁總召提案的環島高鐵那不是一來一去那是條來條去"},{"start":13833.175,"end":13848.98,"text":"所以就目前由副會計委員領銜提案的3個特別條例有的是用特別預算有的要用不同的基金來處理它我想先問您這到底是有經過精算的數字還是只是初估甚至是低估呢部長"},{"start":13849.69,"end":13871.747,"text":"我們有粗估這個是粗估的因為花東快速公路現在有粗估我們可行性有做所以大致大概2500多億以上國六東眼的部分我們是粗估大概近8000億也是以上環島高鐵還沒有全倒就環島的沒有沒有現在因為我們在環島高鐵我們是建議說一段一段"},{"start":13872.988,"end":13894.256,"text":"謝部長回答換言之這樣3個特別條例的預算框定而且限期10年這是非常rough的估計我們未來國庫要提出的可能是無以數計所以說看國家之愷要精算不是用一個特別條例數字填一填寫一寫就可以好下一頁"},{"start":13895.376,"end":13910.328,"text":"我知道今天對您站在這裡很不利啊可能有很多國民黨的委員就回去撿抖音了啦好像就說我們民進黨的王國才部長是反對花東快速道路並沒有"},{"start":13911.189,"end":13927.299,"text":"照顧花東民進黨何其用心已經投入的不管公路鐵路的建設2200億規劃中不管鐵路或公路的建設超過3000億照顧花東的交通建設民進黨就用心"},{"start":13928.34,"end":13950.075,"text":"而就這個案子的可行性評估我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白就花東快速公路的建設當初在馬英九時期任內讓可行性評估停擺打回票的是不是馬英九時期是他在102到最後105是做一個決定就不做了"},{"start":13950.615,"end":13950.775,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":13974.804,"end":13983.998,"text":"我就剩這一頁主席不好意思我要再次強調照顧花東叫不來交通建設叫起岡立法不能凌駕行政權憲法70條釋字391號釋字613號"},{"start":13991.128,"end":14010.654,"text":"權力分立的原則要捍衛否則我說硬要用一個特別條例最後被釋憲違憲以後反而是讓這一個公路讓這一個重大建設被無限期的delay這是有風險的第二個我要再補充很多委員在說你民進黨政府提出了前瞻也有這個花東發展條例也有離島建設條例"},{"start":14014.375,"end":14030.131,"text":"第一個那是行政權提出他有完整的交通財務相關的規劃第二個這些都是通案的建設沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設所以非常清楚也有委員說這是一個特別條例不是特別預算你們不要說這是特別預算"},{"start":14035.456,"end":14049.073,"text":"不好意思,記得條例第7條不就寫得很清楚他是用特別條例來綁住說本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億循特別預算辦理他本質就是一個特別預算就是違憲嘛第二個"},{"start":14051.656,"end":14071.313,"text":"交通建設的評估程序為什麼要回歸專業從可行性評估到這個綜合規劃到基本設計到細部設計到開工動工再到驗收這是一個完整的我們來看看血稅血稅多少年啊"},{"start":14072.466,"end":14081.438,"text":"雪穗從1982年公路總局開始提出可行性評估到他1990年行政院核定到1991年倒坑動工1993年主線動工2006年全線通車這是雪穗的叫起綱阿"},{"start":14088.027,"end":14111.757,"text":"高鐵1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究1987年可行性評估開始1999年動工2007年通車這是負責任的專業的評估更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態所以說交通建設的評估要叫Kigang嘛這一個條例限期10年10年"},{"start":14116.215,"end":14141.361,"text":"這是要我們快速的快轉所有的程序不顧所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎當然不是這樣支持一個建設就讓他叫起剛好好做安全性各項都無虞我最後一個違反財政紀律跟財務評估我赫然發現我手上拿著是2016年徐真偉縣長擔任立法委員的時候同一個條例他的提案"},{"start":14142.721,"end":14161.511,"text":"這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案兩個提案完全照抄一模一樣只有四個字不一樣就是徐貞蔚2016年版是1000億就好到2024年傅崐萁的提案全文照抄只把1000億改成2500億這數字是可以隨便填空的"},{"start":14167.494,"end":14183.086,"text":"這數字不需要精準的財務評估啊所以針對財政紀律法嚴閉稱財政紀律國民黨還要體驗來修正預算法83條限縮特別預算的使用的第4款要拿掉那自打嘴巴不是嗎"},{"start":14184.227,"end":14201.289,"text":"所以我們要再次強調把專業交通是專業照顧花東民進黨很用心我們努力來做今天部長在這裡再三的說明我們支持這個建設往前走蔡英文總統任內讓她的可行性評估"},{"start":14202.35,"end":14228.819,"text":"起死回生我們希望3、4個月後可行性評估有好的方向那就可以循國家預算的程序還不需要編列公務特別預算不是嗎你也整座船好了嘛對不對所以謝謝主席多給我時間部長您再清楚講一次我們支持這一個提案不要用特別條例的方式反而讓這個案子最後被大法官事先是違憲的話就無限期的延擋"},{"start":14230.759,"end":14258.523,"text":"對,我想花東的任何建設我們都支持但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走因為走行政程序他因為在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考讓這個建設未來更可行剛剛談到寫稅也是經過這種程序所以現在通車也是很完整所以我們往這個方向我們全力支持可行性評估如果完成我們就叫起綱叫補來好不好謝謝大家謝謝主席"},{"start":14258.783,"end":14261.644,"text":"好,謝謝胡志堯委員下一位請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":14289.659,"end":14299.584,"text":"現在物價隨時可能飆漲現在每個人都在壓制物價結果啊道頓堡現在變這上架的火車頭嗎?你應該是踩煞車的人走變火車頭你現在台鐵也要去高鐵也要去公路客運也要去"},{"start":14314.332,"end":14326.852,"text":"那你一漲不是整個物價就整個往上漲嗎而且發現一個非常嚴重欸欸你不只漲欸電價漲漲幅度才11%對不對我看你的幅度都比人家高欸高鐵可能要漲15%"},{"start":14329.619,"end":14330.44,"text":"現在唯一我們是覺得應該趕快處理是國道客運的"},{"start":14345.959,"end":14362.601,"text":"因為他在生存、面臨生存的這個問題啦但是我們現在是說短期我們TPAS就COVER嘛那XR就是說有我們的補貼然後那個中途跟長途的部分我們現在有考慮用這個我們的補貼方案"},{"start":14363.041,"end":14363.061,"text":"不問補貼"},{"start":14381.201,"end":14395.975,"text":"所以第一個時間點不對我先強調時間點不對我不是反對你上架喔該有的成本尤其是台鐵我記得台鐵已經虧損那麼久了20百年沒條我贊成是要條可是絕對不要在這時候好不好第一個你先聽我說第一"},{"start":14397.816,"end":14418.543,"text":"時間要往後壓好不好那剛剛又提到的客運的部分如果政府可以透過補助先不要漲啊好不好都不要去台鐵高鐵跟客運短時間都不要漲可以嗎雙鐵應該他的討論會在下半年雙鐵都會在下半年隔天隔天到台鐵所以高鐵這個都下半年以後的事情了討論啦討論我說討論會在下半年以後的事情"},{"start":14421.604,"end":14440.535,"text":"所以今天能不能非常明確地跟全國民眾保證台鐵在上半年絕對不會漲高鐵在上半年也絕對不會漲都不會那另外一個高鐵這個幅度有點大你可能要注意一下你是最大的高鐵嘛對不對他現在我算了一下他現在台北街到高雄"},{"start":14441.55,"end":14459.065,"text":"一四九零欸他現在漲15%欸一四九零差不多是咱一般的民眾一天的薪水就對不對他如果要看爸爸媽媽去看家人欸來回就兩天的薪水喔那個基本費率調整那個票價也不見得調整啦過去他也有那個基本費率有提升我們不讓他漲"},{"start":14460.266,"end":14477.265,"text":"這個我們會全盤來考量,那這個討論都會在下半年,下半年才會開始討論。好,所以保定,那這樣很明確跟我們的民眾講,上半年台鐵、高鐵是不會漲的,有的話也是下半年,那本期更進一步,幅度不要太大。第二個,如果是客運的話,能不能也不要漲?"},{"start":14478.342,"end":14503.659,"text":"透過你的補助嗎?你這段時間都是說你可以補助給他們可以嗎?公務科研就用這種方式公務科研當然要短途T-Pass中長途部分補貼不是啦你中長途短程那個一排一排有三隻隻的欸你要上23趴欸你這個要這可以停下來嗎?那個我再說一次齁這個短途就是T-Pass比如基隆啊台灣過來這個"},{"start":14505.2,"end":14526.387,"text":"基本上我們T-Plus都處理掉所以民眾沒有感覺然後那個中長途我們部分補貼讓它票價不要提太高因為照顧國道客運的一些公路客運、國道客運是面臨到經營上的困境所以我們用部分補貼的方式來處理但民眾就是不會感覺我現在看到是走一個路你現在本來要調六個路他們現在講話給你還是調23%嘛你報仇你明確跟我們講"},{"start":14531.709,"end":14558.994,"text":"經過交通不補助以後能夠降到多少或者不要不要漲這個我們在討論啦不會讓它漲那麼高確定10%以下這個我就應該是應該是我我這個我不要因為我現在沒有這個這個等給那個公路局還有會議委員會去討論是沒有沒有你給我一個承諾你不要漲太高不是不會漲太高就是民眾負擔不會漲很多啊好好另外我來看一個案子好不好你現在就變情報頭子了對不對"},{"start":14563.122,"end":14582.251,"text":"定位上有沒有錯誤?我剛才已經說過,我覺得這個標題實在太可怕了。怎麼會可怕?我不是說國人別去香港。你的專業是交通啊,大家認為說你可能留下來繼續幫我們的交通盡心盡力啊。你現在說香港的基本法,你叫人不要去香港,你有情報頭子,你有情報是不是?還是部長?"},{"start":14585.413,"end":14610.009,"text":"你準備轉行去當國安局長是嗎?我當天是說因為他們是問我這個基本法23條的我的態度嘛我是說你如果有可能違反他基本法的這個行為我是勸他們不要去你那講得你這個違心之論啊你那初心叫人家自己去判斷我先講你那個是定位我聽到講這個裏面說什麼是定位錯誤啦"},{"start":14613.351,"end":14630.026,"text":"搞通博定是促進觀光的啊不是你希望我們的人都出去觀光人家都進來對不對結果不是你現在講一個我的意思是說你香港不要去不是不是你不覺得這定位完全錯誤嗎我可能有可能促法的不要去我講一遍阿朋友聽到你講搞通博定這麼壯邪這樣講大家怕到嗎不是"},{"start":14631.707,"end":14651.863,"text":"我若不說他會你起床在那裡說什麼我一定會說的你怎麼知道你會在那裡說的這個是國安局的事啊你的定位保定保定最重要你是交通部部長交通部部長要促進觀光嘛對不對但是要在安全的狀況下促進觀光安全要安全保定我先跟你講一下你現在"},{"start":14653.524,"end":14664.972,"text":"今年目標定的是1200萬人對不對對2023年喔港澳來台的旅客是最大宗的喔光是香港來台灣的2023年110萬人次阿你現在這樣講香港也說你們看不去我們香港香港就是沒來"},{"start":14669.875,"end":14671.657,"text":"我身為這個觀光的主管部長我必須說有風險的人"},{"start":14688.55,"end":14690.551,"text":"國安局局長可以判斷,交通部部長來判斷沒啥合理"},{"start":14707.341,"end":14724.638,"text":"你是交通的專家不要去管政治的事情好不好不要意識形態那個我完全沒有這意思我是好意跟他因為如果因為那天自己有在問是有這樣的風險嘛比如說在境外講過他的什麼問題也會有什麼問題所以我聽起來"},{"start":14725.979,"end":14744.113,"text":"如果你真的有,因為我們台灣是很自由的國家你知道嗎?可能你不在那裡說到他會什麼判決會什麼的,如果有這樣的行為啦,我是勸他不要去...外地你人眼真好我知道,阿所以記者去問你嘛,問題你現在定位,你不是情報投資阿,你是促進觀光,你現在這講,到目前為止對不對,觀光業就跳腳了,阿觀光業很衰"},{"start":14745.214,"end":14745.655,"text":"我再講一次齁"},{"start":14761.932,"end":14781.633,"text":"沒有風險啦齁我現在這當然自己判斷因為我不知道你有沒有風險沒有風險我歡迎港澳跟臺灣自由自由往來觀光交流還是對阿有沒有風險沒有風險讓情報單位讓國安局去判斷阿有風險真的我自己來處理一下 交通促進觀光旅遊的交通部長拜託勒你不要幫人家併位我沒有那個意思啦我再講一次真的二樓是可以去阿"},{"start":14782.673,"end":14802.088,"text":"二樓室也可以去雖然在打仗還是可以去我沒有講我真的是善意的提醒不是說那個主席主席提供的非常好讓自己去判斷阿第二個是重點你的定位是促進觀光因為觀光業都是有夠衰阿啦主團的事情都沒有解決你現在已經撥了第二層皮了好不好多幫幫幫我們的觀光業的業者讓民眾也歡迎快快樂樂去香港玩好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":14811.414,"end":14839.983,"text":"部長你跑一趟北京嘛那個12點半還超過了,快一點了我們那個後面的便當委員會便當委員會開始發便當官員委員都發好不好,因為我們中午不休息啊為了讓大家下午的時間能夠充分的利用有沒有聽到?現在開始發便當了,OK?好"},{"start":14841.052,"end":14860.779,"text":"也可以吃沒關係,現在疫後沒有這個問題下一位請林佩祥委員發言王部長部長"},{"start":14868.308,"end":14891.135,"text":"花東快速公路是您剛剛說過行政院的中長期計畫的大型交通建設那對於北北基地區來講另外一個極為重要的中長期大型交通建設就是基隆捷運請問一下您知道基隆捷運目前的進行路線嗎您是否知道我知道好那您知道基捷經過的路線有絕大部分都是所謂的內陸集散站"},{"start":14892.142,"end":14893.683,"text":"當基隆捷運正式進入基隆市區之前基隆港就被滅了"},{"start":14913.863,"end":14937.364,"text":"因為基隆港將會沒有所謂的後廠也就是沒有所謂的土地來去做多貨拆品櫃基隆跟高雄是不一樣的高雄在港區旁邊是有許多的土地的而如果你沒有這個土地來去做多貨拆品櫃的話我很難想像行商會願意把30%的貨櫃留在基隆做拆品櫃之後再把70%留到台北港去做多貨拆品櫃"},{"start":14937.944,"end":14951.458,"text":"我跟你們報告齁,重難它經過然後有一些這個後跪的集散地,如果它還有它的功能,我不覺得,我並不覺得啦,它可以轉型,我只是說全部都把它變成"},{"start":14953.46,"end":14973.439,"text":"我本席在院會質詢的時候我很擔心所以我那時候部長也在場本席直接問陳建仁院長賴清哲總統在去年12月24號講的要把五堵六堵七堵的所有貨櫃集散地往台北港塞這件事是否是真的那個時候不好意思長官我們也請您備詢"},{"start":14976.245,"end":15000.004,"text":"我是覺得這個先按照這個所有的業者的需求這就是本席要講的第二句話部長我今天是做理性的討論我不是來罵人的可是這個事情對基隆市絕對重要的事情因為你可能會害的基隆市因此有更大的財務危機跟經濟危機第二點想請問一下部長您既然對基隆港這麼了解你知道基隆港的在地就業機會有幾個嗎"},{"start":15005.187,"end":15029.477,"text":"我並沒有心情上台備訓我可以很負責的跟部長您報告是一萬三千個到一萬五千個換句話說有一萬三千個家庭跟一戶到一萬五千個家庭目前還在基隆港工作在全盛時期基隆港曾經到將近四萬人甚至四萬五千人所以基隆有很多外來人口是從1980年代1970年代開始的但是"},{"start":15030.177,"end":15057.464,"text":"目前我聽到之前本席在基隆市議會的時候一直聽到所謂的北五堵科技園區請問交通部知道這個事情嗎我知道因為那時候應該是林佑昌市長的時候他有一個計畫他想請問北五堵科技園區何時先進完成現在有報行政院嗎有核定過嗎因為這跟基隆捷運有絕對的關係基隆捷運直接從中間經過北五堵科技園區甚至很多徵收的土地都是因為北五堵科技園區所去做的是"},{"start":15058.363,"end":15079.293,"text":"現在好像當時有一個計劃是補助金融市政府在做規劃那所以說現在應該還沒有到度假程序但是我不知道現在接手那個謝市長他們現在進行怎麼樣我不是很清楚那當初林右昌市長的規劃或現在林右昌部長的規劃他有沒有保留過所謂的倉儲用地呢"},{"start":15080.473,"end":15082.756,"text":"國道客運的塞車是很嚴重的事情尤其當基隆到台北端"},{"start":15100.956,"end":15130.462,"text":"每天早上本席要每天早上6點15分出發才不會塞車從6點55到8點我相信所有學術研究都講過了那如果說你沒有把這一個一萬五千人好好的留在基隆上班那他們就會想盡辦法上國道上國道不管是國道一號還是國道三號直接天天的塞車到新北跟台北那那個時候你的客運你的捷運我們不知道十年之後是不是能夠順利順利完工"},{"start":15130.842,"end":15158.685,"text":"我們也不知道客運是不是能夠找到那麼多司機甚至我們也不知道火車是否能夠能夠輔助我們現在運輸功能那你現在跟我講什麼都不知道的時候然後你貨櫃集散站要拆因為這是目前我看到2012月24號我曾經問過那時候陳建元院長跟我說是不會的但是現在部長您說我們現在狀況不知道對吧我是也透過都市計畫的檢討跟業者他有沒有要轉型啊"},{"start":15159.245,"end":15179.011,"text":"我覺得這部分真的是要從需求面來看那如果需求面的話,航商我一直聽到航商直接給我的反應他們想留在基隆港因為如果你搬到台北港你只有一個64號隨時被炸掉還是隨時一個地震觀音山64號被炸掉被地震之後所有北台灣的貨運會癱瘓"},{"start":15182.744,"end":15198.104,"text":"我只是會說對吧因為說真的64號我以前在台北港任職過我想部長您也知道我的resume我以前在台北港任職過所以我知道64號多重要我也不希望64號出事但是只要64號出事之後台北港整個癱瘓對吧"},{"start":15199.946,"end":15224.906,"text":"應該不要這麼說我覺得就有設施要去做空港聯姻嗎空港聯姻是夠的空港聯姻是不夠的所以說本席在這邊特地強力建議麻煩部長跟交通部甚至中央政府要幫基隆人要幫辛苦的基隆人想多一點在地的13000到15000工作因為基隆商港基隆貨櫃港基隆貨櫃港而不是基隆郵輪港郵輪港到目前為止"},{"start":15225.626,"end":15242.664,"text":"制造當地的就業機會不到2000我可以很負責任的講因為港口我敢講港口而這邊的話我知道港務公司現在還在做成效不佳的自營櫃場那是不是可以可憐一下說讓行商能夠繼續留在基隆呢"},{"start":15243.374,"end":15270.991,"text":"我們也沒有趕航商耶沒有,航商會為了自己因為沒有後廠的原因部長這就是我們兩邊有點落差的地方航商會因為沒有後廠的原因自動跑到台北港他們不想去台北港因為台北港如果一個64號出問題所有貨運全部爛掉那基隆至少有兩條高速公路一條國一一條國三可以很順利的運送貨物我想那個基礎的交通網路我是覺得兩邊都完整"},{"start":15271.932,"end":15299.288,"text":"那現在最重要就是說這個基隆港的建設我們並沒有把它說把貨運我們現在是內克外貨嗎?內克外貨是當初十幾年前十幾年前的港務政策是不是還在內克外貨還是東克西貨我想說未來我們再來做討論我先時間到了但是我希望未來針對是否能夠把基隆港的貨櫃行商留在基隆我相信部裡面要給我一個完整的書面回答好OK謝謝"},{"start":15300.063,"end":15327.757,"text":"好,謝謝林沛翔委員的發言下一位請林益君委員發言主席好,有請部長好,請部長各位可以用餐沒關係啦,可以用餐"},{"start":15329.584,"end":15347.415,"text":"您好部長你知道什麼是明知所欲藏在我心的意思嗎?你知道花東人最在意的交通建設是什麼事情嗎?我們花東人不過就只有屈膝卑躬地懇求一條方便回家的道路有那麼困難嗎?"},{"start":15354.159,"end":15361.203,"text":"在今天交通部送來的書面報告中,交通部說明本部長期以來努力平衡東西的區域發展"},{"start":15362.338,"end":15388.86,"text":"近年來已經陸續投入了2200億的改善花東地區的鐵公路的交通建設但問題是為什麼我們花東的民眾都是完全無感呢這是不是執政黨應該檢討的問題啊表示你們這幾年交通建設的錢是不是都沒有花在包口上沒有花在我們花東人的需求上更沒有用在花東人的心上面甚至把錢都浪費在打水漂還有用在選舉綁裝"},{"start":15390.481,"end":15414.235,"text":"是不是這樣呢?不是不是因為你看每一條蘇花改重不重要?蘇花安重不重要?花東雙軌重不重要?花東的台九線景觀道重不重要?這個都是地方提出來我們來協助的對啊但是這個時程都很久而且都沒有讓我們非常順利的回家一旦有時候發生了有一些落實怎麼樣隨時都是在危險中"},{"start":15414.935,"end":15418.917,"text":"現在說到前頭啦為了替花東的鄉親爭一條安全回家的路就算被炮轟我林業軍帶的崗位也要陪著花東的鄉親都向前衝啦因為我一定是跟花東鄉親是在同一個陣線上的"},{"start":15432.242,"end":15460.689,"text":"現在來看有關上週二的3月19號本席在院會總諮詢針對民進黨的執政8年如何才能讓花東人有感讓花東人在交通建設上不要再被忽視讓花東人的發展與西部一樣的繁榮部長你要給花東百姓一條安全回家的路請問我們還要等多久啊現在在進行是一直在我們到底還要繼續欺騙花東人多久了難不成是不是要等到花東"},{"start":15461.849,"end":15479.058,"text":"的有民進黨的人當上縣長和立委你們才要開始建設呢?部長3月19號院會質詢的當天你是否有承諾對於分老多年的花東快建設可行性的評估預計在今年8月你們就可以完成了而且總經費是初估是2000億可是今天報告是2555億是不是這樣呢?是就是8月完成8月完成"},{"start":15486.541,"end":15502.126,"text":"這確實是本席非常樂見的啦畢竟這是花東地區的民眾都是期盼的一條重要的道路終於有一點點的新的進度了那本席再請教問題就是說你們自己評估預算要超過2000億的經費交通部如果認為這樣的話堅持反對編列特別預算那到底準備未來如何編列預算呢錢要從哪裡來呢"},{"start":15510.928,"end":15526.033,"text":"你剛有談到比如說我們舒花改舒花安都是走行政院的中長城個案計畫又是說可行性綜合規劃環評合定我知道我知道這個我都知道但是你知道民進黨執政的時候"},{"start":15526.633,"end":15550.951,"text":"推動的前瞻計畫的時候8年的時間投入的總經費有8400億元的特別預算光是交通建設的話各大重要的建設都是搞軌的軌道建設這個就已經投入了4200億了啊而且這個是特別預算啊如果這些預算可以的話那為什麼那是執政黨的為了要選舉榜關的大傻逼嗎這樣就可以編列嗎然後現在就不能編列嗎是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":15553.886,"end":15578.702,"text":"過去有比如說對於比如說議後的這個部分整包另外就是前瞻軌道也是整包但是每一個個案計畫過去都是走中長城計畫來處理所以我們現在有計畫中長城計畫但是中長城計畫是真的走很久而且今天你們立法院的書面報告上面明明就是明目張膽直接打牆藐視國會議員而且委員們都想要幫你們找裁員的提案"},{"start":15579.922,"end":15601.536,"text":"卻被你們說成有違憲之餘那請問交通部你們要怎麼編列預算呢讓我們花蓮人有感而且沒有違憲又可以公平的照顧我們東部民眾的交通建設的需求呢我們現在的態度就是啟動花東快速公路的趕快8月把可行性做完如果可行性通過來要做綜合規劃環評我們現在就是這樣來支持"},{"start":15604.938,"end":15622.337,"text":"我們今天談的是說我已經有中山城的這種所謂行政的審查的程序全國的每一個個案計畫都是這樣但是你們今天居然說至愛難行之處沒有辦法推動那是不是鬼打仗這是在講條例不是講建設我再跟委員報告一下"},{"start":15624.206,"end":15624.767,"text":"陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":15660.745,"end":15684.688,"text":"您好請部長部長請蔡委員好部長好首先我先肯定啦中央為了要鼓勵民眾多使用大眾運輸工具然後用這個TPS的這個月票區域生活圈的這個概念我想是正確的那對通勤族或者是未來的國際旅客我想這都是有幫助的"},{"start":15685.208,"end":15708.329,"text":"不過我想要談一談我們嘉義縣的嘉義縣市的TPAS它是今年1月2日上市那目前攤開各縣市的方案我發覺到我們嘉義縣市的TPAS納入的台鐵車站就像我在總諮詢的時候跟你討論到的數量太少了票價也沒有相對的優惠所以我想給部長一些數據來去參考同樣都是花399元"},{"start":15709.991,"end":15713.154,"text":"總共的台鐵站數大概是17站57點8公里那屏東399元也是17站56點1公里可是我們的加加方案"},{"start":15726.246,"end":15747.933,"text":"他是6站從大林到南進21.7公里399元那我必須再強調一下就是說這一個距離這6站包含加北到嘉義或者從大林民雄到嘉義這些使用的可能性是相對的低如果不是從大林到南進的話因為其他的部分直接自己使用機車也好或者是汽車就能夠取代"},{"start":15748.453,"end":15774.547,"text":"所以我認為說我可以理解到他地理範圍較小可是我們必須要考量到嘉義的整體發展不只是現在性還有未來性未來民雄航太園區中科院已經正式合併已經開始主動工了那未來這樣的人力進來之後我們可以想像到元年到嘉義的通勤數量一定會增加那未來還有包含台積電他的這個正式進駐我們嘉義科學園區從南部到"},{"start":15775.287,"end":15801.807,"text":"加一引南的這些縣市到這個加一它的使用範圍也會更大更廣所以我不是要求說T-pass那路的車站要比別人多我要求的是說在通勤範圍的考量現在跟未來性未來3年到6年要整體規劃現在就必須要處理那我也知道說我們的加一市議員也有提出相關的像包含王浩服務處也有這個發文過去針對大家一生活圈的月票"},{"start":15802.327,"end":15826.75,"text":"那當初的說法回函我看到他這個回函的部分是指說有一些行政的所要耗費的這個這個經費會比較多一點所以我想請教一下說有沒有這樣的考量有沒有考量說未來能夠往北或往南增加車站讓更多的這個來自北部或南部的這些人能夠進入我們家裡的生活圈裡面來工作就是擴大他的生活圈的可能性"},{"start":15827.421,"end":15852.014,"text":"各位報告我等下來問他們是什麼我基本上非常支持未來比如說跨區啦往雲林或是往那個往南等等的那現在的TPAS的方案是地方政府提出來我們公務局來審查那如果現在有一些跨區的需求我會請公務局全力來協助我不知道那個局長有沒有什麼特別為什麼有自然安全"},{"start":15853.202,"end":15853.222,"text":"委員長"},{"start":15881.778,"end":15881.798,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":15911.698,"end":15941.084,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":15941.204,"end":15946.549,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員下一位請黃仁委員發言有請部長部長請黃委員"},{"start":15968.653,"end":15997.359,"text":"剛剛我們那個我們林義軍委員所言的我跟他同在他的心聲我跟他一樣提出我們一定為花東快不斷的要發聲今天不是違憲的問題我們叫天天不靈叫地地不靈我們不是孤兒我們都是父母生的"},{"start":15998.206,"end":16027.535,"text":"我今天為臺東花蓮來發聲因為我本身是臺東人我必須要講的是今天我們臺東臺東的人口數是最多的人口數除了花蓮之外除了花蓮之外人口數第一個人口數在花蓮第二是臺東第三是桃園那"},{"start":16028.41,"end":16053.77,"text":"我們在台東的居民來講的話花蓮台東居民來講真的是要靠有一個安情的道路可以回家第二可以讓他們新興產業裡面產生了光光的產業我們農業的大陣但是必須要透過交通的要塞今天我們講一個"},{"start":16056.138,"end":16071.992,"text":"我們花東快在民國100年的時候就已經提出結果計畫的一拖再拖那為什麼我們現在一個新的條例新的條例"},{"start":16074.96,"end":16085.805,"text":"112年11月27日行政院通過的國道1號楊梅字頭份段拓展的一個工程總經費總共是1314.15億平均造價一公里36.5億"},{"start":16094.449,"end":16108.948,"text":"我們在民國100年這個通案之後快速道路重啟的工程現在從經過了幾年之後已經是平均的造價一公里13.2"},{"start":16111.691,"end":16131.82,"text":"當初在一百年的時候通過了為什麼花東快一拖再拖請問一下他是有沒有違憲道理很多民進黨現在在提的是違憲什麼叫違憲我剛剛委員報告這個我們支持花東快速公路或是花東的建設"},{"start":16133.081,"end":16133.902,"text":"我今天以一個臺東人的心聲來跟部長拜託"},{"start":16159.847,"end":16177.438,"text":"花東快就是我們的交通的母親我們必須要透過這個交通能夠快速的通過之後讓台東花蓮的觀光產業包含我們的農業的產業能夠更去發達我們不是孤兒"},{"start":16181.821,"end":16197.561,"text":"我們不是孤兒不要老是以北縱然後親我們臺東花蓮今天這樣的一個對我們來講情何以堪我們很多的訴求臺東叫不靈花蓮天不靈"},{"start":16198.567,"end":16212.299,"text":"原因在哪裡?執政有沒有這個破例?你們有沒有針對花東的立場來表達你們的真正的誠意?我現在講是花東快啦,花東快,你現在什麼時候可以希望不要再拖了好不好?好"},{"start":16230.199,"end":16257.098,"text":"好,謝謝黃仁委員發言。下一位請蘇清泉委員發言。蘇清泉,蘇清泉不在。王美惠委員發言,王美惠,王美惠不在。鄭振前委員發言,鄭振前,鄭振前不在。林志明委員發言,林志明,林志明不在。顏光衡委員發言,顏光衡,顏光衡不在。張家俊委員發言,張家俊,張家俊不在。"},{"start":16257.802,"end":16282.732,"text":"林祖英委員發言,林祖英,林祖英不在楊瓊英委員發言,楊瓊英,楊瓊英不在蔓玉珍委員發言,蔓玉珍,蔓玉珍不在陳靜瑜委員發言,陳靜瑜,陳靜瑜不在登記執行委員均已經發言完畢,做以下的決定一,報告及詢答完畢二,委員劉建國,陳靜瑜,蔡錫章所提書面執行列入記錄並刊登公報三,委員於執行中"},{"start":16283.413,"end":16308.398,"text":"要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分,請交通部盡速以書面答覆好,現在開始花東快速公路建設特別條例草案的逐條審查並進行協商,為不浪費大家時間,我們在原位進行在進入逐條討論前,先請議事人員"},{"start":16311.758,"end":16316.46,"text":"宣讀條文大概要10分鐘,我們休息10分鐘讓他們去討論,讓他們宣讀,我們休息10分鐘你這邊宣讀,有意見再說"},{"start":16324.505,"end":16346.084,"text":"本院委員傅崐萁等33人擬具《花東快速公路建設條例特別條例草案》案第一條為推動花東交通建設平衡區域發展促進公共改善交通品質增進居民福祉特殊利益本條例本條例為規定者適用其他法律規定第二條本條例所證花東指花蓮縣及台東縣第三條本條例所證快速公路範圍包括花蓮縣及台東縣"},{"start":16347.285,"end":16361.92,"text":"沿線規劃之道路用地取得開發及環境保護等公共運輸設施及保育系統第4條本條例主管機關在中央為交通部在縣市為縣市政府第5條為順利推動花東快速公路之整體交通建設與發展中央主管機關應設置花"},{"start":16364.141,"end":16381.1,"text":"花東及花東交通建設推動委員會並邀請交通部國發會地方組織環保團體學者專家等人共同組織由交通部部長擔任召集的其設置要點由行政院定制花東交通建設推動委員會因擬定花東快速公路建設發展"},{"start":16382.862,"end":16403.864,"text":"計劃綱要每半年檢討一次全部計劃之建設完成以逾10年為限第6條交通部及縣市主管計劃因一花東快速公路建設推動發展計劃之綱要配合施工工程進展需要擬定之綜合建設方案其內容如下一方案目標及實施範圍二公路沿岸限制規劃三土地徵收取得市環境綠化保護五"},{"start":16404.404,"end":16423.072,"text":"配合天然觀光資源開發6天然災害防治7分期實施計劃及分執行分工8分期財務需求及經費兩元9其他第7條會推動花東快速公路之整體交通建設與發展本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億元循特別預算程序辦理"},{"start":16423.992,"end":16451.62,"text":"並依工程實際規劃及進展之需要得斟酌減之並於本條例實施後分8年編列執行本條例特別預算經費不受財政收支劃分法第37條補助地方事項及各經費規定之限制及經費使用者各員機機關原理預算之範圍內調整之意不受預算法第62條及63條規定之限制全項所需經費來源得以舉措、借債或"},{"start":16452.76,"end":16472.574,"text":"出售政府所持有事業股份之方式辦理不受公共債務法第5條有關每年度舉在額度之限制中那主管機關會配合前項是工程建設計畫進展因設置花東快速公路建設發展基金作為推動本條例之各項建設基金規劃與需求該基金之收支保管及運用辦法由行政院定制第8條"},{"start":16473.294,"end":16501.267,"text":"中央主管機關應以永續發展為目標結合在地文化與觀光推動保護文文景觀自然生態等環境作為本條例快速公路沿岸整體交通建設與發展之計劃難題必推動發展相關優質產業第9條中央主管機關應擬立相關計劃對本條例新建後沿線土地開發取得而受影響之原住民有關生活與文化保存與保障並輔助原住民參與自然資源維護與經營管理及提供相關就業機會第10條"},{"start":16502.768,"end":16526.784,"text":"其花東地區交通建設永續發展並堅固建設發展與環境維護因本條例別列制預算與執行諮詢完畢 後之設予一款因設立花東交通改善建設基金供後續花東地區道路建設使用前一項基金之由從頭主管機關為交通部後續收支保管及運用辦法由主管機關訂定全責定之第11條本條例自公佈事實宣布完畢"},{"start":16544.405,"end":16555.231,"text":"好,現在進行協商若總統府針對法案內容有意見請提出來以供委員參酌那我們從法案名稱開始"},{"start":16563.2,"end":16586.98,"text":"《花東快速公路建設特別條例》第一條各位有沒有意見?第一條的名稱喔?法案名稱喔?要唸嗎?唸完了唸完了嗎?好,法案名稱第一條有沒有意見?有意見齁?有意見我們保留好不好?宋協商齁?各位第一條有沒有意見?"},{"start":16588.786,"end":16614.697,"text":"有齁有我們送協商同一碼同一碼齁第二條各位有沒有意見有好我們送協商齁送協商各位有沒有意見齁第三條有沒有意見有有的話我們就送協商齁第四條有沒有意見有好有我們送協商第五條有沒有意見有有我們送協商第六條有沒有意見"},{"start":16616.383,"end":16641.732,"text":"有,有,我們送協商。第7條有沒有意見?有,有,第7條要送協商。第8條有沒有意見?有,有,第8條要送協商。第9條有沒有意見?有,有的話我們送協商。第10條有沒有意見?有,我們去送協商。第11條有沒有意見?有意見齁?"},{"start":16644.192,"end":16646.373,"text":"好已經協商完成了,本案照剛才的協商結論通過"},{"start":16673.717,"end":16695.408,"text":"通過吼?就通過,就保留嘛,保留。通過就是保留,剛才是保留嘛。針對本日會議做以上的決議,依討論事項所列的《花東快速公路建設特別條例草案》審查完據,擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論前,請問各位委員是否須交黨團協商?"},{"start":16703.947,"end":16720.241,"text":"要去交,那就須交黨團協商好不好?院會討論的時候由陳昭吉委員學生補充說明好本日議程處理完畢現在休息3月27日星期三上午9點繼續開會謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":16734.261,"end":16736.242,"text":"今天沒吵架,你不掌聲鼓勵一下大家?"},{"start":16764.068,"end":16764.428,"text":"議員．審查委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}