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部長好 兩位署長好 我的標題很清楚 補足沿管工程能力如期完工 講自來水 完善性能規範符合IEA的標準 我們來看一下部長 上次很關心在院會裡面有跟你請教嘛 過去第3期第4期自來水地區的供水改善計畫呢 總額花了143點多 屏東就超過一半快71億股"},{"start":45.641,"end":59.229,"text":"平衡自來水普及率在我們這樣共同努力之下不到5成,現在已經到了破7成了,但全台是9成5。我們看看過去在114年度自來水公司的副總單位預算當中,第5期的114年度,它一共有13.5億。"},{"start":61.07,"end":87.808,"text":"全部是75億,5年是75億,一百萬人總額是用15.3億,我們現在看但是我統計一下,在那屏東地區有27個案子,總工程會就要11.13億你明年度有15.3億,屏東這邊就需要11.13億你覺得有沒有辦法來幫忙支持?錢製作都完成囉我請這個,署長來,署長"},{"start":90.285,"end":90.325,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":103.063,"end":103.083,"text":"這簡單講啦齁"},{"start":124.641,"end":149.096,"text":"全臺灣其實包商現在屏東的工程只剩屏東可以做了啦當然重點是因為我們預算總預算的審查延宕本來你們一定10月就要公布要核定的名單給四海水公司名人補助名單李總在這裡嘛對不對因為你們沒有核定嘛水公司在我們屏東都不敢講話部長會打包票明年屏東該做的就一定可以做"},{"start":150.194,"end":152.235,"text":"臺電新達電廠混氫發電的試驗目前是用藍綠氫、藍氫還是灰氫?目前是灰氫那什麼時候可以導入藍綠氫或者是藍氫?因為灰氫還是有碳排"},{"start":173.861,"end":198.38,"text":"現在跟這個中央研究院有在對 你們在研究呢 中研院攜手台電去碳燃氫的發電企劃 啟動對不對 是 但我們知道石化燃料也好 天然氣也好 它經過碳補桌 經過高溫裂解純粹 有燃氫 這是碳補桌的 但是如果你產出固碳 固態碳 然後呢 可以把它碳補桌把它存放著 那就是燃綠情勢這樣嘛"},{"start":200.422,"end":213.452,"text":"國際上是要藍青,要到一定程度才能叫藍綠青,IEA發布的標準有一個A級的強度,請問目前台灣規範的碳排的強度標準,多少才叫藍青?"},{"start":218.137,"end":244.819,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們台灣還沒有訂出標準還沒訂出來我們都參考國際的規範是的就是要問這個部長您知道我們在說藍青藍綠青灰青的時候其實我們自己的藍青的標準跟藍綠青的都還沒有訂出來往下看所以我們看看目前中油跟台電二氧化碳的風存計畫去碳藍青後它有一個CO2的碳風存也會產生固態碳這也包括高碳排我們也可以碳補儲產生的固態碳"},{"start":245.74,"end":246.58,"text":"報告委員 因為要解決這個碳的問題 其實有很多的方法"},{"start":272.213,"end":295.979,"text":"那我想我們會基於成本我們會基於成本的考量這個來做一個將來發展的研究好那最重要的就是這個這一頁因為時間的關係齁能源署要趕快訂出台灣的碳補桌利用及封存的規範可以嗎進度如何這部分是環境部他們這是環境部訂的我不是能源署我就問環境部長好那既然如此往下看齁"},{"start":296.636,"end":312.578,"text":"那麼我最後一個問題就是嘉青站卡到了我們土地管制規則中游只有12%可以兼營嘉青站而且我在3月11號的時候問你們的次長他說要回去評估評估到現在比照充電站現行的交通站可以兼營嘉青站進度如何"},{"start":315.372,"end":335.88,"text":"這個部分我們已經有相關的公告, 加金站、加油站是可以在符合規範下, 什麼時候可以開始設置?台灣中油可以開始設置?我們現在是第一個先由中油還是先把第一個示範站先做出來, 之後給其他的業者。所以現在法規上已經可以了是嗎?英文觀念好, 上一條上一條。都市計畫裡面的事情, 限制20條之一, 本來就有加油氣站, 請問這個氣是什麼氣?"},{"start":337.401,"end":338.021,"text":"請研議青能產業相關的規範與國際能源的"},{"start":366.306,"end":367.947,"text":"準確 IELTS準確呢?"},{"start":367.947,"end":385.242,"text":"那麼避免影響CBAN的可行性,一個月提書面報告,可以嗎?可以提嗎?讓環境部全場,最後呢,讓加油站經營充電站的路徑,循這個路徑,讓加油站得以經營加輕站,一個月提出來,可以嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝兩位組長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時12分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請郭部長，還有能源署的游署長、水利署的賴署長。"],["主席：請郭部長、游署長、賴署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、兩位署長好。我的標題很清楚，「補足延管工程人力如期完工」，講的是自來水；還有「完善氫能規範符合IEA標準」。我們來看一下，部長，本席很關心，上次在院會裡面有跟你請教，過去第三期、第四期無自來水地區的供水改善計畫總額花了一百四十三點多億，屏東就超過一半，近71.5億，屏東自來水普及率在我們這樣共同努力之下，從不到五成到現在已經破七成了，但全台是九成五，我們看到在114年度自來水公司的附屬單位預算當中，第五期的114年度共15.3億，全部（5年）是75億，114年總額是15.3億。但是我統計一下，單單屏東地區有27個案子，總工程費就要11.13億，明年度有15.3億，屏東這邊就需要11.13億，你覺得有沒有辦法來幫忙支持？前置作業都完成了哦！"],["郭部長智輝：我請署長來說明。"],["賴署長建信：為了達成這些目標，早日提升屏東的自來水普及率，我們用幾個方式來處理，經費的部分感謝行政院核定了，但是採購策略的部分也是可以思考。另外，你剛剛講的人力補充，事實上部長也在自來水協會的大會上針對台水公司技術工部分希望要提升薪資，然後希望有更多人來投入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我跟你請教，簡單講，現在員工不好請，全臺灣包商……現在屏東的工程只剩屏東可以做了，當然重點是因為我們總預算的審查延宕，本來你們預定10月就要核定公布自來水公司補助名單，李總也在這裡，對不對？因為你們沒有核定，水公司在我們屏東都不敢講話。部長可否打包票，明年屏東該做的就一定可以做？"],["郭部長智輝：一定可以做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，該做就應該要做，好，謝謝兩位。","我們繼續往下看，接下來是能源署長的部分，這邊說台電興達電廠混氫發電的試驗，目前是用藍綠氫、藍氫還是灰氫？"],["郭部長智輝：目前是灰氫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前是灰氫，那什麼時候可以導入藍綠氫或是藍氫？因為灰氫還是有碳排啊！"],["郭部長智輝：現在跟中研院有在討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，你們在研究，中研院攜手台電啟動去碳燃氫的發電計畫，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們知道石化燃料也好，天然氣也好，它經過碳捕捉、經過高溫裂解，純粹有藍氫，這是碳捕捉的；但是如果你產出固態碳，然後可以把它碳捕捉、把它存放的那就是藍綠氫，是這樣嘛？往下一頁，國際上它是藍氫要到一定程度才能叫藍綠氫，以IEA發布的這個標準，它有一個A級的強度，請問目前臺灣規範的碳排的強度標準，多少才叫藍氫？署長。"],["郭部長智輝：我請署長跟你報告。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，目前我們臺灣還沒有訂出標準……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，還沒訂出來。"],["游署長振偉：我們都參考國際的規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，就是要問這個。部長，您知道我們在說藍氫、藍綠氫、灰氫的時候，其實我們自己的藍氫、藍綠氫的標準都還沒有訂出來。所以我們來看看目前中油跟台電二氧化碳的封存計畫，去碳藍氫後，它有一個CO2的碳封存，也會產生固態碳，這也包括高碳排，我們也可以碳捕捉，產生了固態碳。但現在問題來了，固態碳再利用的話，它還是會排碳，所以說碳封存才是讓這個碳不會再到大氣裡面去的根本之道，所以中油在2022年有啟動一個二氧化碳封存技術三年研究計畫，在臺中電廠要進行碳捕捉跟封存，你覺得未來是不是要擴大來進行辦理？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為要解決碳的問題其實有很多的方法，我想我們會基於成本的考量來做將來發展的研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最重要的就是這一頁，能源署要趕快訂出臺灣的碳捕捉利用及封存的規範，可以嗎？進度如何？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分是環境部他們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是環境部訂的？不是能源署？好，我去問環境部長。既然如此，往下看，我最後一個問題就是加氫站卡到了我們土地管制規則，中油只有12%可以兼營加氫站，而且我在3月11號的時候問你們的次長，他說要回去評估，評估到現在，比照充電站，現行的加油站可以兼營加氫站，目前進度如何？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，這個部分我們已經有相關的公告，加氫站是可以在符合規範下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候？臺灣中油何時可以開始設置？"],["游署長振偉：我們現在請中油還是先把第一個示範站做出來之後，給其他的業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在法規上已經可以了，是嗎？因為都市計畫法施行細則裡面的第二十九條之一本來就有加油（氣）站，請問這個「氣」是什麼氣？"],["游署長振偉：這個是天然氣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是氫氣嘛，對不對？部長知道嗎？現在的規定可以加天然氣，不能加氫氣，這很荒謬啊！天然氣在危險防制層次上比氫氣更高，對不對？好，往下一頁，所以你們只要去改加油站的設置規則就可以了嘛！你們汽機車電池的充電及更換服務設施，你們直接改在底下的管理規則就可以充電了，所以你們趕快去改這個管理規則就可以加氫了，好不好？部長可以承諾嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請研議氫能產業相關的規範，依國際能源IEA的標準訂定，避免影響CBAM的可行性，一個月提出書面報告，可以嗎？可以提嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以提報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：讓環境部……。","最後，研議「以現行加油站兼營充電站法規路徑，使加油站得兼營加氫站」之方案，一個月內提出來，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長，謝謝兩位署長。"],["主席：請陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","請林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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