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以本席很簡單的一個提問那現在核能是不是全部都凍結所以不會重啟核電因為現在法令上還是規範這樣子法令什麼規定那經濟部的態度勒"},{"start":435.219,"end":449.982,"text":"我們會依法行政啊,法令規定所以你就是堅決的反核對不對沒有,各位媒體我們是依法行政啊你的法到底怎麼樣啊,現在核有沒有重啟的空間這問題你要討論,你要來講啊"},{"start":459.557,"end":473.737,"text":"我們才有辦法來瞭解未來說你發電的成本怎麼計算好再講簡單的就是在5年前平均的一度電費用是多少這個可不可以請台電說明一下"},{"start":477.885,"end":500.405,"text":"主席長啊 你看大家問的一問三不知 然後一見面就是老套我要錢要錢給我一千億 主席長以前是一度電兩塊多啦 現在叫到一塊多啦那但是一塊多那是指民生用電的部分 那現在成本又是兩塊七 所以要倒電一塊啦"},{"start":501.085,"end":521.343,"text":"現在民眾也搞不清楚啦一直覺得電價一直漲請問工業用電委員民生電價一直都沒有漲民生電價一度電現在多少民生電價現在一部電全部平均啦因為它是分級的級距330度以下的沒有漲過就沒有漲"},{"start":523.365,"end":549.242,"text":"那整個累計級距過去這一段時間以來整個民生的平均電價是2.77元2點比以前高啊沒有啦沒有2.77沒有高我300度以下的電價還比2004年的電價低好那最高的電價平均電價最高是什麼你是超過1000度以上的有一個累計級距多少大概是10塊左右10塊"},{"start":551.638,"end":564.629,"text":"10塊是不是對那個比較高這個齁用電的級距大家看得很清楚一問三不知連老百姓也不知道老百姓的感覺老百姓的感覺這是說喔什麼萬物起漲電價要飆漲那請問今年民生電價真的民生電價沒漲這一次"},{"start":575.814,"end":603.09,"text":"一千億撥補了以後,你能保證以後的民生電價都不漲嗎?跟委員報告好,我們現在在處理的是過去的臺電因為政策而承擔的支出。你今天要一千億嘛,那我請問你,這一千億給你了以後,你能不能擔保未來的民生用電不漲?"},{"start":604.77,"end":619.223,"text":"報告委員,我還是要跟您說一件事,我們現在在討論的是為什麼用到追加的方式,而且主席長剛剛也在說明說他這個部分的財源現在是去年的,所以即是我們現在在討論的是補貼過去對台電造成的虧損。"},{"start":624.512,"end":651.88,"text":"假設這一千億給你的以後,你明年電價還會漲?我還是要跟委員報告,因為這件事真的電價不是臺電公司決定啦。那我再問你,但我要告訴各位,我要告訴委員的是,我們一直在講,說因為如果有補貼,那電價表演會都會考慮。主席站起來了。二屋戰爭如果停止的話,你的電價要不調降?委員,二屋戰爭之後還要看燃料價格怎麼反映。"},{"start":653.287,"end":671.573,"text":"因為通貨膨脹 戰爭會造成通貨膨脹 通貨膨脹發生以後要怎麼樣子校正 那個跟戰爭結束沒有直接關係我準備的資料沒有辦法說服所有的人民 你開宗明義第一個就講啊 那個竹記長寫的啊 由於二霧戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲"},{"start":676.495,"end":677.156,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":879,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時29分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請陳主計長？"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["羅委員明才：以及經濟部連次長。部長有沒有來？"],["主席：好，請經濟部連次長。"],["羅委員明才：首先請教主計長，今天最主要的是提追加預算。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：金額是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：1,000億。"],["羅委員明才：1,000億喔？我看到你們準備了一些資料，你的資料大概就是有1頁、2頁、3頁，大概3、4頁這樣。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：短短幾張紙，然後要我們通過1,000億的追加預算。再看一下經濟部好了，經濟部的次長嗎？連次長，你這邊大概也是有用心在準備啦，可是那麼用心的結果是1頁、2頁，附件不算啦，因為附件都是空白的，第3頁這個就是制式的。主計長，這3頁的紙就要來跟立法院要1,000億啊？哇，那真好要啊，平均1頁就三百多億！這個是什麼資料？主計長說明一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分我們將來會改進，我們再補充，但是重點以我們來講我們只是就編制它的一個過程和經過來說明，主要的內容是要經濟部來做補充。"],["羅委員明才：現在你們做的每一個步驟事實上是攸關民生的問題啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：民眾已經受不了了，電價一漲再漲，只有薪水沒有漲，實質的薪資「倒退嚕」，老百姓怎麼生活啊？所以請教一下經濟部，現在台電公司會不會破產？"],["連次長錦漳：因為現在有在做其他的，我們公務預算也有撥補，目前舉債上限還在一定的範圍。"],["羅委員明才：你們不能給人民的感受是遇到事情時政府不撥補就等著倒，然後用沒電、缺電來要脅人民。"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，現在我們也責成台電要很努力改善財務結構。"],["羅委員明才：你有沒有算過啊，你們在開源節流方面做了多少工作、有沒有認真在做？"],["連次長錦漳：所以現在台電在今年年底會把整個財務改善結構的分析報告，我們要請它提出來。"],["羅委員明才：台電現在股本多大？"],["連次長錦漳：現在是5,800億。"],["羅委員明才：5,800億，裡面股東結構是怎麼樣？"],["連次長錦漳：一般民股只有2.11，那個是一般的，台電差不多有97……"],["羅委員明才：民股有多少？"],["連次長錦漳：民股有2.11。"],["羅委員明才：2.11，民股有二點多，主計長，你可以編公務預算來補助一個裡面有民間持股的公司嗎？主計長，全臺灣上市、櫃公司有1,900家，如果民間的股份政府機關可以補助，那請問以後有一些遇到國際因素、生產不善、經營不力的可不可以來找主計長補助啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它是我們的國營事業，所以我們是補助國營事業。"],["羅委員明才：是怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是補助國營事業，它是我們國營的。"],["羅委員明才：國營事業它裡面有民股啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：民股很少吧！"],["連次長錦漳：那個民股當時要求它要……"],["羅委員明才：依你的邏輯來講，以後包括一銀、包括合庫等等其他的公司如果虧損沒有辦法經營的時候，政府是不是要補貼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是可以撥補的啦！依照規定是可以撥補的。"],["連次長錦漳：委員，台電的狀況不一樣，因為所有的輸配電網整個都是台電在經營，所以如果沒有一個足夠的資金或財務結構給它，它對於我們整個輸配供電的影響很大，對於我們整個民生用電或產業發展是會影響非常大，這個對國家衝擊很大。"],["羅委員明才：你們就是用這樣不斷來要脅人民，所以我們立委就是一定要通盤接受，是不是這樣？"],["連次長錦漳：我們也會督促台電改善，整個財務結構要很用心的去做一些改善。"],["羅委員明才：對，重點是怎麼樣開源節流，整個過程cost down下來。"],["連次長錦漳：對，對……"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你說這一次要撥補的原因是因為俄烏戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲，對不對？所以台電發電燃料成本較俄烏戰爭前大幅增加，是不是這個意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這段時間這個部分它維持民生不漲價或者是產業不漲價，它本身的虧損就達到六千多億……"],["羅委員明才：我知道啦……"],["陳主計長淑姿：民生是2,800億，產業是4,000億，總共有6,800億，這必須要做一個彌補它才有辦法，因為它負有一個政策的任務。"],["羅委員明才：只有彌補這條路嗎？那就證明了你的電力政策是錯誤的嘛，現在所有的產業界、很多的工商團體在講你為什麼不以核養綠呢？次長，請問日本現在的核電廠有沒有重啟發電？"],["連次長錦漳：但是日本在這一波也是撥了五千多億在……"],["羅委員明才：請回答！日本已經重啟核能發電了嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：13部。"],["羅委員明才：有重啟是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：不是，它現在有13部機組在運轉。"],["羅委員明才：包括日本、法國、德國也考慮要重啟核電，經濟部的態度怎麼樣？"],["連次長錦漳：要重啟核電這個因為現在法令規定，我們還是要在法令規定下去做處理。"],["羅委員明才：所以核電會不會重啟？"],["連次長錦漳：剛剛跟委員報告，現在法令規定這樣，一定要在安全而且核廢料處理沒有問題，而且要在全民共識下。"],["羅委員明才：所以本席很簡單的一個提問，現在核能是不是全部都凍結，所以不會重啟核電？"],["連次長錦漳：因為現在法令上還是規範這樣子。"],["羅委員明才：法令怎麼規定？那經濟部的態度咧？"],["連次長錦漳：我們會依法行政，法令規定……"],["羅委員明才：所以你就是堅決的反核，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，跟委員報告，我們是依法行政。"],["羅委員明才：你的法到底是怎麼樣？現在核能有沒有重啟的空間？次長，這個問題你要討論你要來講啊，我們才有辦法來了解未來所有發電的成本怎麼計算。好，再講簡單的，5年前平均1度電費用是多少？"],["連次長錦漳：這個可不可以請台電說明一下？"],["主席：請台電曾董事長。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你看，來問一問三不知，然後一見面就是老套，我要錢、要錢，給我1,000億！主計長……"],["陳主計長淑姿：以前是1度電兩塊多元……"],["羅委員明才：那現在呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在降到一塊多元，但是一塊多元那是指民生用電的部分，現在成本又是兩塊七元，所以要倒貼一塊錢。"],["羅委員明才：現在民眾也搞不清楚，覺得電價一直漲，請問工業用電，你那個費率又一大堆。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，民生電價一直都沒有漲。"],["羅委員明才：民生電價1度電現在多少？"],["曾董事長文生：民生電價現在1度電全部平均……"],["羅委員明才：平均啦，就是問平均。"],["曾董事長文生：因為它是分級的級距，330度以下的沒有漲過，就沒有漲，整個累計級距過去這一段時間以來整個民生的平均電價是2.77元。"],["羅委員明才：比以前高啊！"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦！"],["羅委員明才：沒有？2.7沒有高？"],["曾董事長文生：300度以下的電價還比2004年的電價低。"],["羅委員明才：好，那最高的電價，平均最高是什麼？1度多少？"],["曾董事長文生：超過1,000度以上的有一個累計級距。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["曾董事長文生：大概是10塊錢左右。"],["羅委員明才：10塊錢是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：對，那個比較高。"],["羅委員明才：這個用電的級距大家看得很清楚，一問三不知，連老百姓也不知道……"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦，我們在網路上都有。"],["羅委員明才：老百姓的感覺就是萬物齊漲、電價又要飆漲，那請問今年……"],["曾董事長文生：民生電價真的沒漲。"],["羅委員明才：這一次1,000億撥補了以後，你能保證以後的民生電價都不漲嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：你就回答我嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在在處理的是過去台電因為政策而承擔的支出。"],["羅委員明才：你聽我講，你今天要1,000億嘛，那我請問你，這1,000億給你了以後，你能不能擔保未來的民生用電不漲？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我還是要跟您說一件事，我們現在在討論是為什麼用到追加的方式，而且主計長剛剛也說明這個部分的財源現在是去年的歲計賸餘，我們現在在討論的是補貼過去對台電造成的虧損。"],["羅委員明才：好，假設這1,000億給你了以後，你明年電價還會不會漲？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：我還是要跟委員報告，因為電價這件事真的不是台電公司決定的啊！"],["羅委員明才：好，那我再問你……"],["曾董事長文生：但我要告訴各位、我要告訴委員的是，我們已經在講因為如果有補貼……"],["羅委員明才：最後一句，主席站起來了……"],["曾董事長文生：電價審議委員會都會考慮。"],["羅委員明才：主席站起來了，俄烏戰爭如果停止的話，你的電價要不要調降？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，俄烏戰爭之後還要看燃料價格怎麼反應，因為戰爭會造成通貨膨脹，通貨膨脹發生以後要怎麼樣子校正，那個跟戰爭結束沒有直接關係。"],["羅委員明才：你所準備的資料沒有辦法說服所有的人民，你開宗明義第一個就講了啊，主計長寫的，由於俄烏戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲，所以費用大幅增加……"],["主席：好，是不是羅明才委員……"],["羅委員明才：所以相反來問，如果俄烏戰爭結束的話，那你應該要調降電價啊！"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，那個蛋價漲上去，早餐店漲了也沒有降呀！"],["主席：董事長、董事長，時間到了、時間到了，好不好？明才委員謝謝……"],["羅委員明才：好啦，3張紙要來要1,000億，合理嗎？"],["主席：接著請邱志偉委員質詢。","謝謝，謝謝明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}