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國務卿好 國務卿好"},{"start":68.652,"end":69.473,"text":"大型的部份等等。"},{"start":85.055,"end":111.484,"text":"換了智慧電表之後我們要做的就是要去做一個管理嘛就說來看一下是說哪一些機關有比較異常的使用狀況嘛所以我們先講啊勞動部北分署這個昨天勞動部新任部長到那個北分署長的辦公室去講是說爆料真的布置過當啊那甚至也有媒體之前報導講是說還有用綠植栽牆啊有利植物生長所以在辦公室內設軌道燈導致電費暴漲"},{"start":114.67,"end":131.346,"text":"那過去到現在既然我們現在各部門也都已經有做這個智慧電表了難道我們沒有一些管理機制是可以去看是說哪一個部門他用電的狀況確實跟他的人員也好或說跟他的相關配置也好是不符合比例的嗎"},{"start":134.811,"end":147.735,"text":"總不能說都要一般老百姓你們要節電用電不能要省電小機關學校要隨手關燈結果反而我們的大部會尤其是大關冷氣開直栽牆做軌道燈做"},{"start":149.896,"end":168.132,"text":"來部長這個大概是這個特案特例啦特例還是通例我現在我是很懷疑耶部長或者是署長的辦公室都有自摘牆是啊我想應該不至於那麼大家那麼敢嘛阿我跟委員報告我們現在做這個智慧電表意思就是去monitor"},{"start":168.812,"end":188.773,"text":"他現在的用電方式 那我們如果可以改善 那麼將來可以進步多少我們現在都還在建立標本 我現在跟委員報告 也請委員能夠幫忙因為我們現在所有公務機關 要做這些事情都要透過採購法很麻煩 有什麼比較好的方法 可以比較快來落實"},{"start":191.704,"end":201.807,"text":"市長本席給建議你應該是先盤點一下是說我們用電的比如說哪幾個部會是用電大戶然後尤其是比較特殊他你怎麼會這個部會或是說哪個辦公室他都是列為前幾名然後來去做檢討嗎我們有10大標竿的這個包括醫院"},{"start":217.951,"end":241.5,"text":"這同質性比較高的產業我們都有標出來醫院學校公共機構 這個資料能不能公布還是說能不能來讓國人知道也要求他們做改善 這個沒有問題這個我們我們是已經都是公開的資料我們要選哪幾個產業那哪幾家公司 產業是一個部分我現在講說以公部門以身作則"},{"start":242.74,"end":269.087,"text":"對 我們在講說公部門以身作則 不然我之前還看到是說我們台電的董事長說官邸八台冷氣都不敢吹所以有人是這個樣子 那有人是有人是浪費用電 那我們當然要抓出來 所以因為部長你是產業界出身 我想你一定很了解本席現在講的 就說我怎麼樣用數字化管理去看各部會的狀況 所以這樣的資料可以提供什麼時候"},{"start":274.735,"end":296.578,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":297.148,"end":307.986,"text":"本席有查到還有很多的民眾是沒有換成智慧電表但是從去年今年一直都有所謂的超錯電表的新聞"},{"start":309.224,"end":312.988,"text":"臺中8月114戶傳統電表超錯苗栗頭份也有超錯的問題本席最近辦公室也接獲有民眾說同期一樣的空間"},{"start":328.407,"end":342.153,"text":"他的電費就比去年多了一千多塊那當然第一時間他跟台電反映台電講是說因為我們電價有漲啊等等相關他說但是他的數字沒有變所以這會衍生什麼這樣的狀況"},{"start":343.854,"end":344.414,"text":"這是一般老百姓大家面臨到問題"},{"start":373.926,"end":401.502,"text":"電視你台電在用阿 台電在跟我們說啦所以說你會變成是說到底我今天多用多少電那那個轉盤一直在轉如果說他沒有換成智慧電表是傳統電表的話他就一直在轉阿那你真的已經去問收到帳單的時候已經是兩個月前一個月前的事情了那個時候的那個數字跟現在數字也不一樣民眾會變成沒有辦法去確實或是查核說他到底有沒有超錯的一個狀況"},{"start":402.703,"end":423.115,"text":"但是部長我要提出來是說從2022年2023年到2024年每年其實都有因為民眾認為說他的帳單真的是太異常了他就申訴最後鍥而不捨所以說才發現說是超錯那但是這個是民眾鍥而不捨啊你有一般的民眾可能他覺得說多一千塊"},{"start":424.482,"end":430.805,"text":"臺電不會錯啦!臺電政府機關國營企業不會錯啦!他就攪了!應該會導入AI下去確認用這個大資料來比對然後來精進、來集合這些臺電做還是經濟部做?臺電會做"},{"start":451.038,"end":477.395,"text":"部長 本市也提一下啦 內機內控就像如同你的工廠管理 良率的部分該抽檢也要抽檢啊 要多少 譬如說這件事要抽檢 適時的抽檢 不定時的抽檢用這樣子的良率來去回推說是不是我們是正常的 這個部分是不是能夠研究一個辦法這個可以 這個我們用標準局去做correlation就可以了 我們就直接做這個外部跟內部的correlation就可以了"},{"start":477.955,"end":484.063,"text":"那針對AI或是這個你的標準局的這個部分是不是這個做法能夠提供給本席一個月內提供報告給本席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1219,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請郭部長及台電王總經理。"],["主席：請郭部長、王總經理。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：郭部長，我想電的部分大家也都關心，本席現在要討論另外一個議題，我記得之前，台電也好，經濟部也好，都一直在推動所謂的智慧電表，希望大家能夠比較有效率來做這個電的使用。之前也說過我們公家機關是不是全部都已經換成智慧電表？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有全部，幾乎啦！大型的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們說公家機關要先帶頭節電，總統召開氣候變遷委員會，就是希望能夠節電。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：換了智慧電表之後，我們要去做管理，看是哪些機關有比較異常的使用狀況，我們先講昨天勞動部新任部長到北分署長辦公室，爆料說真的布置過當；之前甚至也有媒體報導說，用綠植栽牆有利植物生長，所以在辦公室內設軌道燈，導致電費暴漲。既然各部會現在都已經有裝設這個智慧電表，難道我們沒有一些管理機制可以去看是哪一個部門的用電的狀況，跟它的人員或是相關配置，是不符合比例的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：目前因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：總不能都要一般老百姓節約用電、省電，小機關、學校要隨手關燈，結果我們的大部會，尤其是大官冷氣開、做植栽牆、做軌道燈！部長。"],["郭部長智輝：這個大概是特案、特例啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：請問是特例還是通例？我現在很懷疑！"],["郭部長智輝：不是每一個部長或署長的辦公室有植栽牆，不會啦。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想大家應該不至於那麼敢嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，我們現在做這個智慧電表，意思就是去monitor它現在的用電方式，如果可以改善，那麼將來可以improve多少，我們現在都還在建立標本。我也要請委員幫忙，因為所有公務機關要做這些事情，都要透過採購法，很麻煩。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有什麼比較好的方法，可以趕快來落實？我們現在就透過採購法，這個是出乎我意料之外的……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席給你建議，你應該先盤點一下，比如哪幾個部會是用電大戶，尤其是比較特殊的部會或是辦公室，它都列在前幾名，然後去檢討。"],["郭部長智輝：我們有十大標竿，包括醫院，就是同質性比較高的產業，我們都有標出來，如醫院、學校、公務機構。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個資料能不能公布讓國人知道，也要求他們改善？"],["郭部長智輝：這個沒有問題，這個都是已經公開的資料，我們要選哪幾個產業、哪幾家公司……"],["洪委員孟楷：產業是一個部分，但我現在說公部門要以身作則。之前還看到台電董事長說官邸8臺冷氣都不敢吹，所以有人是這個樣子，也有人在浪費用電，我們當然要抓出來。部長您是產業界出身，你一定很了解本席現在講的，就是我怎麼樣用數字化管理去看各部會的狀況，所以這樣的資料什麼時候可以提供？一個禮拜可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：一個禮拜是比較緊一點，因為我們幅員還滿廣的……"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜？好，兩個禮拜。你已經有智慧電表，照理講，使用智慧電表的用意，就是你可以把它給數字化出來，兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜內送給本席的辦公室以及我們經濟委員會的委員。另外，本席查到還有很多民眾沒有換成智慧電表，但是從去年、今年一直都有抄錯電表的新聞。本席剛剛看了一下臺中在8月份的時候，就有114戶的傳統電表被抄錯；苗栗頭份也有抄錯的問題。本席辦公室最近也接獲訊息，有民眾說他是一樣的空間，同期的電費就比去年多了一千多塊，第一時間他跟台電反應，台電說因為我們的電價有漲等等，但他說他的數字沒有變，所以這會衍生什麼樣的狀況？說實在話，一般民眾對這一千多塊，也不是付不起，但會覺得心很痛，再加上說他是用銀行直接轉扣，所以就扣款出去了，但這中間到底有沒有抄錯的空間，我想請教一下，台電有沒有所謂的內稽內控的機制？"],["郭部長智輝：這個應該都是委外在處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是委外在處理，所以才會有盲點。本席現在提出來，這個是一般老百姓會面臨到問題，因為是台電在跟我們講我今天用了多少電，如果沒有換成智慧電表，而是傳統電表的話，那個轉盤就一直在轉，如果你真的已經去問，但是收到帳單的時候，已經是兩個月前、一個月前的事情了，那個時候的數字，跟現在的數字也不一樣，民眾沒有辦法確實去查核，他到底有沒有抄錯的一個狀況。部長，我要提出來的是，從2022年、2023年到2024年，每年都有這樣的問題，民眾認為他的帳單真的是太異常，鍥而不捨的去申訴，才發現抄錯；這個是民眾鍥而不捨，一般的民眾可能覺得多一千塊就算了，台電是政府機關、國營企業不會錯啦，他就繳了，無形當中……"],["郭部長智輝：現在會導入AI下去確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼導入？"],["郭部長智輝：導入AI來確認，就是用大資料來比對，然後來精進稽核……"],["洪委員孟楷：是台電來做，還是經濟部做？"],["郭部長智輝：台電會做。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席也要提一下，內稽內控就如同你在工廠管理良率的部分，該抽檢也要抽檢。"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如這個縣市要適時的抽檢，不定時的抽檢，用這樣子的良率去回推是不是正常的，這個部分能不能夠研究一個辦法？"],["郭部長智輝：這個可以，我們由標準局去做collation，直接由外部跟內部做collation。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，針對AI或是標準局的部分，相關的作法能夠提供給本席嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們再整理報告給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月內，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","登記發言的委員，除了不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。有張嘉郡委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","林月琴","蔡易餘","黃國昌","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","何欣純","葉元之","林倩綺","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}