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今年已經有比較和緩了所以你一千億主要是撥補過去我們對民生用電動漲所造成的損失嘛 對不對如果這一千億沒有"},{"start":48.12,"end":57.756,"text":"這個沒有讓預算通過那你民生用電繼續動漲那你的虧損會持續增加對不對因為你還是動漲一塊錢嘛民生用電還是不會漲嘛"},{"start":59.517,"end":83.472,"text":"那個跟委員報告喔就是民生我應該要這樣子講就是民生用電其實他之前一直在動漲所以累積了台幣的虧損這一千億其實在補之前的所以會長期低於你的售電成本的關係所以你虧損會持續擴大嘛所以才要撥補嘛才通過這個一千億的預算另外你還有10個相關的政策任務比方說你那樣淨零轉型這個很重要對不對是"},{"start":84.432,"end":113.248,"text":"既然你不是口說無憑你必須要有很多實際上的這個電網牆內的這些相關的電網我有兩個我們另外一個就是折舊的支出因為我們現在要加強的做電力的建設電網的建設我們現在折舊攤體一年大概1000億那接下來累計會開始往上漲就是它一年累計的費用會持續增加到2040年如果這1000億沒有通過的話你淨零轉型可能會沒有辦法達成對不對或者效果會變得很差"},{"start":114.482,"end":136.7,"text":"我們需要更多的籌資的工作要去做第一個,你有政策的目的第二個,你要未來強氮電網各項電力建設是很重要所以如果沒有我怎麼想都想不清楚為什麼藍白會要擋這個預算要刪這個預算刪這個預算只會讓台電破產會不會破產"},{"start":146.437,"end":169.802,"text":"會不會負債?跟委員報告就是說這一千億我們自己在估算我們的淨值事實上佔我們總資產的百分比一直在下降。一直在下降。但是我這樣子講就是說這只如果有比較大的價格波動事實上對我說燃料價格波動或是國際的市場波動對台電現在來講都會是一個衝擊。"},{"start":172.967,"end":198.409,"text":"短時間俄羅斯戰爭好像還沒有停火的跡象,所以國際不穩定的因素還是存在嗎?是,但跟委員報告,我舉個例子來講,其實蛋價上去了,接下來大家一直都在討論這件事情,通貨膨脹發生,其實它要回來,沒有那麼容易。能源價格的狀況也是這樣,它不會說戰爭結束了價格就回到戰前,其實不會。對,我了解,這個基本常識我們都知道,我也不曉得這個問題怎麼會有這個問題。"},{"start":201.947,"end":222.775,"text":"如果用核電,會減少、會降低整體台電的售電成本嗎?我們算過大概一個電,就是核三廠如果真的要延,我們在沒有考慮延逸要清真投資的狀況下,"},{"start":224.54,"end":226.821,"text":"韓國的核能比幾乎到三成,我們目前只有6.3"},{"start":248.336,"end":248.856,"text":"邱志偉議員．邱志偉議員"},{"start":280.198,"end":280.419,"text":"主席"},{"start":294.588,"end":313.313,"text":"做這個研議的相關準備但我也要跟委員報告2022年的時候2022年的時候事實上我們還有核二的一部機跟核三兩部機在運轉那一年的虧損其實也就非常大不是沒有核電就一定不會有虧損從韓國電力的經驗來看你的高核能比也沒有辦法阻擋你的虧損也沒有辦法這個讓電價不調漲對不對"},{"start":323.939,"end":326.008,"text":"這個邏輯很清楚 核能不是一個解方欸"},{"start":331.776,"end":349.945,"text":"從財政上來看以韓國現在的整個占比來看他也沒有辦法解決整個能源價格上漲的問題電價他的電價調的比台灣還高我跟委員報告2023年如果台電的電價是比照韓電的電價的話這裡不會負1977億我們會賺200多億韓電的電價高還是具有虧損對不對所以"},{"start":361.513,"end":381.258,"text":"這個臺電的狀況我覺得你要用比較宏觀的去思考那你要獲得社會的支持就是說你漲這一千億是為了什麼要訴諸民意啊你跟過去我們擔負太多政策的這個負擔民生用電動力漲等等是為了讓這個臺灣的電力公司能夠永續服務"},{"start":388.458,"end":407.938,"text":"財務穩健是最基本的條件所以有很多人提出很多莫名其妙的這個例論我覺得很奇怪另外我們的安全的挑戰也很重要就我們都處於地震帶對不對這地震帶啊這個你想這個只要有地震帶"},{"start":409.775,"end":409.795,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":425.509,"end":426.85,"text":"主席在這裡宣布我們休息半個小時"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":988,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時40分）謝謝主席，我一定會很準時。請台電曾董事長、經濟部連次長。"],["主席：請曾董事長、連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：首先請教曾董事長，目前基準電價是不是還低於售電成本？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：大概低多少？"],["曾董事長文生：最主要我們今天討論是因為要補貼民生……"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：我們的平均現在算出來大概是每度電差1塊錢。"],["邱委員志偉：每度電差1塊錢？"],["曾董事長文生：那是今年喔，今年已經有比較和緩了。"],["邱委員志偉：所以1,000億主要是撥補過去我們對民生用電凍漲所造成的損失，對不對？如果沒有讓這1,000億預算通過，而民生用電繼續凍漲，你的虧損會持續增加，對不對？因為你還是凍漲1塊錢，民生用電還是不會漲嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我應該要這樣子講，民生用電其實之前一直凍漲，所以導致台電累積了虧損，這1,000億是在補之前的。"],["邱委員志偉：這我了解，所以長期低於你的售電成本的關係，所以你虧損會持續擴大，所以才要撥補、才要通過這1,000億的預算。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外你還有相關的政策任務，比方淨零轉型，這個很重要，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：淨零轉型不是……口說無憑，你必須要有很多實際上強韌電網相關的電網設施。"],["曾董事長文生：對。我有兩個，我們另外有一個就是折舊的支出，因為我們現在要加強做電力的建設、電網的建設。"],["邱委員志偉：這部分大概占多少錢？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在折舊攤提一年大概1,000億。"],["邱委員志偉：也是1,000億？"],["曾董事長文生：接下來累計會開始往上漲，就是一年累計的費用會持續增加到2040年。"],["邱委員志偉：如果這1,000億沒有通過的話，淨零轉型可能會沒有辦法達成，對不對？或者效果會變得很差。"],["曾董事長文生：我們需要去做更多籌資的工作，就會變成這個樣子。"],["邱委員志偉：第一個你有政策的目的；第二個未來你要做強韌電網，各項的電力建設是很重要，所以我怎麼想都想不清楚為什麼藍白會要擋這個預算、要刪這個預算？刪這個預算只會讓台電破產。會不會破產？曾董，會不會破產？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這1,000億我們自己在估算，事實上我們的淨值占總資產的百分比一直在下降，但是我這樣子講，就是如果有比較大的價格波動，我說的是燃料價格波動或是國際的市場波動，對台電現在來講都會是一個衝擊。"],["邱委員志偉：短時間俄烏戰爭好像還沒有停火的跡象，所以國際不穩定的因素還是存在嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：是，但我跟委員報告，我舉個例子來講，其實蛋價上去了大家一直都在討論這件事情，通貨膨脹發生其實它要回來沒有那麼容易，能源價格的狀況也是，它不會戰爭結束了價格就回到戰前，其實不會。"],["邱委員志偉：對，我了解，這個基本常識我們都知道，我也不曉得怎麼會有這個問題。再來，如果用核電，會減少、降低整體台電的售電成本嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我們算過，核三廠如果真的要延役，我們在沒有考慮延役要新增投資的狀況下，它也才影響0.1元左右。"],["邱委員志偉：0.11元嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：0.11元，對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以大幅度發展核電或者核三延役或者是以後有什麼新的核能廠，這不會……看韓國的經驗就知道……"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["邱委員志偉：你看一下韓國的經驗，韓國的核能比幾乎到三成，對不對？我們目前只有6.3，他們燃氣和燃煤跟我們差不多，但它的核能到三成左右，而它的虧損還是一樣，虧損比台電嚴重。不是你發展核電、核能占比比較多，你的財務結構就會改善，或者你的整體發電成本就會下降，並不是這樣，這個邏輯很清楚。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：現在有人說就是要節省成本、要發展核電才能把整體的營運成本降低，這種立論對嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我要跟委員報告，這是百分比的問題，而且它有幾個前提，就是如果我們現在核電廠依法要繼續延役，那就是要停下來做延役的相關準備。但我也要跟委員報告，2022年的時候事實上我們還有核二的1部機跟核三的2部機在運轉，那一年的虧損其實也是非常大，不是有核電就不會虧損。"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛，從韓國電力的經驗來看，你的高核能比也沒有辦法阻擋你的虧損、也沒有辦法讓電價不調漲，對不對？這個邏輯很清楚，核能不是一個解方耶！"],["曾董事長文生：從財政上來看，以韓國現在的整個占比來看，它也沒有辦法解決整個能源價格上漲的問題，它的電價調得比臺灣還高。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，2023年如果台電的電價是比照韓電的電價的話，這裡不會負1,977億，我們會賺二百多億。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊，韓電的電價高還是鉅額虧損嘛，對不對？所以台電的狀況我覺得你要比較宏觀的去思考，你要獲得社會的支持，就是說你漲這1,000億是為什麼？要訴諸民意。你看過去我們擔負太多政策的負擔，民生用電凍漲等等，為了讓台灣電力公司能夠永續服務，財務穩健是最基本的條件。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以有很多人提出莫名其妙的立論，我覺得很奇怪。另外，我們的安全的挑戰也很重要，我們都處於地震帶，對不對？只要有地震帶就會產生很大的風險，所以我們的核能如果在地震那麼頻繁狀態下，還能適合繼續再發展核能嗎？次長，政策上應該要很清楚啊！"],["連次長錦漳：這個要經過審慎的評估，核能要發展一定要在安全無虞的狀況下。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊，非操之在我們的部分，對不對？地震我們哪能控制？事實上我們就處於地震帶上面。","我的時間到了，我要很準時。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員。","主席在這裡宣布：休息半個小時，請大家用餐，13點20分繼續開會。","休息（12時48分）","繼續開會（13時25分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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