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就是為了審慎 審酌這個結合案件這個結合當事人必須要做的說明必要的文件當然 那是哪些必要文件 是你們所說的必要文件是哪些必要文件就是說這個結合產生的中效對於這個利害關係人的影響等等對啊 就是這些解釋嘛就是說它可能會造成如果合併之後是不是有外界所疑慮的 是"},{"start":98.038,"end":120.663,"text":"會有這樣的影響到彼此競爭或是有獨佔市場的狀態然後造成彼此在我們有幾樣員工的問題或是在後續競爭狀態然後所有消費者的權益甚至商家的權益這些嗎都會有請他們一起說明嗎因為我們在這之前所針對的這幾個重點大家認為有疑慮的"},{"start":124.884,"end":150.592,"text":"有請他們說明嗎?有說明進來了嗎?那說明進來了,那我要請問一下那奇怪了,你們也有開公聽會吧?有開幾場座談會,針對所有這些我們的業者還有員工,是嗎?業者員工那我要請教一下主委,主委我們有那麼吝嗇"},{"start":152.557,"end":181.211,"text":"我們開公平會就只有開那四場為什麼就開那幾場我們的座談會在北中南東都有開那除了這個座談會之外整個外送平台的併觀是不是很嚴重大家是不是矚目的焦點影響非常非常大是不是我要收集更多的資訊data也就是讓業者外送員消費者"},{"start":182.071,"end":206.747,"text":"他們可以充分表達是不是應該這樣子因為我們當時候一直強調的是你如何保障三方的權益嘛外送員消費者餐飲業者所以這三個重要的一個區塊你要讓他們充分表達可是你們的公聽會座談會就是辦了四場高雄一場台中一場宜蘭一場台北一場"},{"start":207.808,"end":209.369,"text":"臺中然後高雄然後你東部也才宜蘭那我台東跟花蓮要去的我要去宜蘭"},{"start":228.143,"end":230.784,"text":"請問問卷現在回收率多少?你們發了幾份出去?我們在這個網路上有意見徵詢目前有600多個意見進來"},{"start":247.553,"end":275.365,"text":"網路那總共包括外送員、餐飲業者有跟Uber有跟那個Foodpanda合作的業者還有消費者這全部有多少人?你現在才600多個啊那你有去了解全國有多少嗎?是全省回來的意見600多個全國意見有600多份嘛那我要問你全國總共外送員、餐飲業者、消費者總共"},{"start":276.431,"end":276.611,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":294.062,"end":294.342,"text":"委員會主管委員會"},{"start":311.533,"end":336.567,"text":"外送員佔了多少?餐飲業者佔了多少?消費者佔了多少?這部分我們有分析有嗎?分析多少?這600多份外送員多少?大部分的意見外送員有500多份500多份有外送員那餐飲業者呢?還有其他的包括這個其他的利害關係的人除了外送員以外還有其他那我就單指這個外送員外送員你知道現在"},{"start":338.018,"end":340.9,"text":"外送公會現在的回應是怎麼樣你們整個外送公會現在全國的外送公會有幾個"},{"start":360.417,"end":386.745,"text":"這個各地的外送工會有幾個?有相當多啦有多少嗎?你有去了解嗎?你既然主委你要跟我講說你還有針對工會那你就要非常清楚說那我們全國的工會有幾個?全國一個各縣市幾個?你要去了解啊你都沒有這些資訊你跟我講說有啦我有問這個我有問那個阿結果咧?我這樣一問你的Data資料給我嗎?"},{"start":388.038,"end":416.425,"text":"你的工會外送工會你說的嘛這都是你說的我都順你的話說喔主委我沒有假的跟你說一句話鹹的說一句話喔這都是我順你的話說的在臺北廠就有60幾個工協會來參加那各地的這個工協會呃 詳細的數字我手上沒有掌握但是就臺北來看齁就有60幾家的工會來參加主委你不要跟我一樣在這邊一直在繞嘛"},{"start":418.671,"end":443.469,"text":"你今天我已經跟你說現在座談會跟公平會市場夠不夠我認為不夠既然這麼大的爭議你為什麼不六都都辦你為什麼不六都都辦然後東部在花東也辦一場你在宜蘭耶花東要到宜蘭好那你跟我講說有啦我們網路也有結果被我疑問"},{"start":446.617,"end":460.206,"text":"14萬的外送員才回來500多份的問卷你說我還有針對工會 工會也有哥哥 我問你工會有多少 你也說不出來 你說有啦在台北的時候有很多工會 有60幾個工會有參加你又把我回鍋到整個公聽會的制度裡面"},{"start":467.637,"end":467.977,"text":"發言委員：陳亭妃"},{"start":491.584,"end":514.905,"text":"就這樣嗎就這樣嗎你知道外送員的聲音餐飲業者的聲音消費者的聲音我如果這樣一問你們根本都沒有辦法掌控他們的聲音其實我們在很多場的公聽會還有立法院委員組織的公聽會我們都有去了解而且都有掌握所以那你為什麼所以嘛那你的意思就是說安這也沒辦法"},{"start":516.326,"end":538.231,"text":"也不用辦公聽會嗎?也不用辦座談會嗎?因為我只要從立委的手上、立委的嘴中、然後所有的一些相關的單位講就可以了嗎?我跟妳說,我們要做就要做到腳紋啦!不要應付啦!要做要做到腳紋啦!今天外送平台的併購案,妳也知道"},{"start":539.805,"end":556.867,"text":"聲音很大你是不是應該把它做得更仔細為什麼我們吝嗇去辦這些公聽會我們辦了讓他們來說他們不願意那麼我們沒有話講可是你今天為什麼六都不辦"},{"start":558.544,"end":558.564,"text":"委員長"},{"start":584.935,"end":585.215,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":603.482,"end":603.522,"text":"是。 是。"},{"start":618.892,"end":644.581,"text":"對阿可是我的意思是說在你審查過程這個這麼重要的你如何讓這三方外送員消費者還有餐飲業者充分表達他們的意見那麼就會成為你們準博非常重要的意見依據這才是重要啦主委不要等閒視之這告謝主長處理不好事我告訴你會炸鍋謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時8分）謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委早。我想現在公平會最重要的一件事，就是外送平臺併購案，大家都非常關注這個問題。你們有要求外送平臺併購案業者要在11月8日備齊所有文件送進來，現在他們的資料備齊了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：現在文件已經備齊，在11月8日備齊了。"],["陳委員亭妃：針對你們所要求的幾樣都送進來了嗎？你們有要求他們要做一些解釋，也就是未來就水平結合、限制競爭的整個狀況做考量，看是不是會影響到後續的競爭壓力或獨占市場的狀態？有要求他們做分析評估？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的，為了審慎、審酌這個結合案件，有關結合當事人必須要做的說明並備齊必要的文件，我們當然……"],["陳委員亭妃：是哪些必要文件？你們所說的必要文件是哪些必要文件？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是結合所產生的綜效對利害關係人的影響等等，請他們說明。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，就是這些解釋，即如果合併之後是不是會有外界所疑慮的，影響到彼此的競爭或有獨占市場的狀態，造成彼此員工的問題甚或後續的競爭狀態，進而影響所有消費者的權益，甚至商家的權益，這些嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：都會請他們一起說明。"],["陳委員亭妃：都有請他們說明嗎？在這之前針對這幾個大家認為有疑慮的重點，都有請他們說明嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，有請他們說明……"],["陳委員亭妃：說明進來了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：既然說明進來了，那我要請問一下。奇怪了！你們也有開公聽會吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：有開過幾場座談會。"],["陳委員亭妃：座談會？針對所有相關的業者、員工，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：業者、員工？我要請教一下主委，我們有那麼吝嗇，開公聽會就只開那四場？為什麼就開那幾場？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在北、中、南、東都有開座談會，除了座談之外，也有……"],["陳委員亭妃：外送平臺併購案是不是很嚴重？是不是大家矚目的焦點？"],["李主任委員鎂：影響非常、非常大。"],["陳委員亭妃：非常大，是不是？所以是不是要蒐集更多資訊、data？也就是讓業者、外送員、消費者可以充分表達意見？是不是應該這樣子？我們當初一直強調的是，如何保障三方的權益─外送員、消費者、餐飲業者……"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這三個重要區塊，你要讓他們充分表達意見，可是你們的公聽會、座談會就只辦了四場！高雄一場，臺中一場，宜蘭一場，臺北一場，這麼重大且受矚目的案件，你們有那麼吝嗇就只辦四場？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：你讓其他要參加的人奔波，可能要去臺北、臺中或高雄，而且東部才宜蘭一場，臺東與花蓮要參加的只能到宜蘭！"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們除了座談以外，還做了問卷，也請各相關利害關係人提供書面說明……"],["陳委員亭妃：問卷？"],["李主任委員鎂：有多重的管道……"],["陳委員亭妃：請問問卷回收率多少？你們發了幾份出去？問卷你們發了幾份出去？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在網路上有意見徵詢，目前有六百多則意見進來。"],["陳委員亭妃：那是網路，總共、包括外送員、有跟Uber Eats、foodpanda合作的餐飲業者、還有消費者，這全部有多少人？你現在才六百多個啊，那你有去了解全國有多少嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是全省回來的意見六百多個。"],["陳委員亭妃：全國意見有六百多份嘛，那我要問你全國的外送員、餐飲業者、消費者總共有多少？因為你認為六百多個就很多了嘛，那我現在問你啊，你有沒有去了解，總共外送員有多少？餐飲業者有多少？消費者有多少？那六百多份很多嗎？消費者我看幾乎……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們問的不只是這麼多人，是說回來，回復意見的有六百多則。"],["陳委員亭妃：但六百份回來就很多嗎？依照這個比例是非常少耶，依照外送員的比例，餐飲業者的比例，消費者的比例，這是非常少耶，那你有去細分這些回來的問卷，外送員占了多少？餐飲業者占了多少？消費者占了多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：這部分我們有分析。"],["陳委員亭妃：有嗎？分析多少？這六百多份中，外送員是多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：大部分的意見是外送員啦，有五百多份，另外有……"],["陳委員亭妃：五百多份是外送員，那餐飲業者呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：還有其他的人，包括其他的利害關係人，除了外送員以外，還有其他……"],["陳委員亭妃：那我就單指這個外送員，外送員，你知道現在Uber Eats、foodpanda他們的外送員總共有多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的了解有十四萬多，全部的外送員。"],["陳委員亭妃：十四萬多，然後才五百多份回來？這比例……"],["李主任委員鎂：其實我們還有問外送工會，以及在各地的座談會當中，都有請外送工會……"],["陳委員亭妃：外送工會現在的回應是怎麼樣？你們整個外送工會，現在全國的外送工會有幾個？各地的外送工會有幾個？"],["李主任委員鎂：有相當多啦，就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：有多少嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：大大小小的外送工會……"],["陳委員亭妃：你要去了解嘛，主委，既然你要跟我講說你還有針對工會，那你就要非常清楚說明全國的工會有幾個，全國一個，各縣市幾個？你要去了解啊！你都沒有這些資訊，結果你跟我講說「有啦，我有問這個、我有問那個」，結果呢？我這樣一問，你的data資料就要給我嘛，外送工會是你說的嘛，這都是你說的，我都順著你的話講喔，主委，我沒有多跟你講一句話、少講一句話喔，這都是我順著你的話講的。"],["李主任委員鎂：在臺北場就有六十幾個工協會來參加，各地的工協會，詳細的數字我手上沒有掌握，但是就臺北來看就有六十幾家的工會來參與。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，你不要跟我在這邊一直在繞嘛，今天我已經跟你說，現在座談會跟公聽會四場，夠不夠？我認為不夠！既然是這麼大的爭議，你為什麼不六都都辦？你為什麼不六都都辦？然後東部在花東也辦一場，但你們是在宜蘭耶，花東必須要到宜蘭來參加。","好，你跟我講說「有啦，我們網路也有」，結果被我一問，十四萬多個外送員，才回來五百多份的問卷。你說你還有針對工會，工會也有徵詢，結果我問你工會有多少個，你也講不出來！你說「有啦，在臺北的時候有很多工會參加，有六十幾個工會參加」，你又把我回鍋到整個公聽會的制度裡面，所以你根本就沒有落實嘛！如果你們只是想要應付性的去處理這個嚴重性且茲事體大的案子，這個併購案是非常嚴重的，你們不能等閒視之，用你們過去的SOP，你們要用加強版啦。"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：但現在你好像認為，今天公聽會你們已經有辦了，問卷也發了，就這樣嗎？就這樣嗎？你知道外送員的聲音、餐飲業者的聲音、消費者的聲音是什麼嗎？我如果這樣一問，你們根本都沒有辦法掌控。"],["李主任委員鎂：他們的聲音，其實我們在很多場的公聽會，還有立法院委員主持的公聽會，我們都有去了解，而且都有掌握，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：那你為什麼？所以嘛，你的意思就是說，這樣你們其實也可以不用辦，也不用辦公聽會嗎？也不用辦座談會嗎？因為你只要從立委的手上、立委的嘴中去知道，然後所有的一些相關單位講講就可以了，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是、不是，各界的意見我們都會去聽……"],["陳委員亭妃：我跟你說啦，既然你們要做就做得仔細一點，不要應付啦，要做就要做得很仔細啦，今天外送平臺的併購案，你也知道聲音很大……"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：你是不是應該把它做得更仔細，為什麼我們吝嗇去辦這些公聽會？我們辦了，讓他們來說，他們不願意，那麼我們沒有話講，可是你今天為什麼六都不辦，你就這樣子做，北、中、南、東各選一場，這是過去的作法，可是這個外送平臺併購案問題非常的嚴重，可是你今天網路也是這樣子做，聲音就是那麼一小批人。"],["李主任委員鎂：我跟委員報告一下，這個結合文件齊備之後，就有一個審查期間，這個審查期間沒有做出決定的話，結合它就可以去進行了，所以我們一方面要兼顧審查的期間，一方面要兼顧公共意見的徵詢，這一次這個案子，從5月我們收件到現在，我們就一直在……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們的期間是30個工作天嘛，11月8號文件備齊之後，依法是30個工作天嘛，也就是說，今年12月19號你就要准駁嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：那現在已經11月底了喔。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們現在進入審查的程序，因為文件都齊備。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊，你已經進入審查，我知道你進入審查……"],["李主任委員鎂：所以在文件齊備之前，我們就已經開過公聽會。"],["陳委員亭妃：審查有30個工作天啊，在今年12月19號以前要准駁啊，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果沒有的話，可以再延長60天啊，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，可是我的意思是說，在你的審查過程中，這個這麼重要的程序，你如何讓這三方──外送員、消費者，還有餐飲業者充分表達他們的意見，這個就會成為你們准駁非常重要的意見依據，這才是重要啦，主委，不要等閒視之，這件事如果到時候沒有處理得宜，我告訴你，會炸鍋啦！謝謝。"],["主席：請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","陳超明","蔡易餘","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公\n平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}