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底存廢的問題那因為我看到就是從1月9號到現在像部長你那邊其實一直發的新聞稿就是這個死刑執行規則不是你部長改的對不對你是依照以前的那個那個辦那個什麼"},{"start":1664.329,"end":1664.489,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":1689.861,"end":1690.001,"text":"這我知道齁"},{"start":1710.277,"end":1732.749,"text":"那我是希望啦部裡面因為在去年底到今年其實我們有很多這個部裡面其實一直有在談一個就是反滲透法還有這個認知作戰那我的意思是這樣當然那些東西不是不能做而是當我們把非常多的力氣讓部長總長都一直出來講這個反滲透法這個然後要檢察官一定要辦"},{"start":1734.432,"end":1758.506,"text":"結果呢傳了這麼多人我們花了那麼多力氣那到底價值在哪裡將來我一定會盯這個點就是當年傳喚的人數跟最後判決確定的人數的那個比例我會把這個呈現出來給全國的國人那我覺得與其花力氣在這些東西上面不如我們來回過頭去想怎麼樣讓人民安居樂業到底我們怎麼樣讓家長能夠安心的送小孩子到學校"},{"start":1759.482,"end":1785.825,"text":"好那還有就是我們也要去思考小朋友到這些矯正學校會不會越關越大尾所以說為什麼青少年他那個旋轉門效應很嚴重就進去出來進去出來一直很嚴重這個我們都要去思考到底有了什麼問題那尤其是之前那個割喉案之後這個我們從這個個案發現其實矯正機關出來是不是有無法回歸社會那這一塊也麻煩"},{"start":1786.787,"end":1804.869,"text":"部長您這邊能夠用用心然後我們去弄清楚我們的矯正系統到底出了什麼狀況跟委員說明一下就是原來是少年府醫院我們現在改為矯正學校用學校的學校化的方式來教育這些青少年"},{"start":1806.653,"end":1834.371,"text":"再來我就提醒一下因為現在短影音變成是黑幫的這個推手以前要去什麼撞球場去電動玩具店找吸收小朋友現在不用現在都是用那個影音嘛所以可能滿院長您也要這個跨部會之間要怎麼樣的合作因為他們吸收新的未成年人的方式已經變了那我們也要去改變要因應這個改變的部分不要讓學校變成是幫派人力的人力銀行"},{"start":1837.537,"end":1859.674,"text":"這個部分我們有請教育部、內政部跟保護部一起來努力我們就是就事論事再來我們來談論一個就剛剛部長所說的死刑的部分死刑到底要不要執行當然我想請教部長就是當外界都一直在說你那個死刑執行規則第二條"},{"start":1861.442,"end":1862.503,"text":"來我們看一下齁"},{"start":1891.104,"end":1918.996,"text":"審核執行案件執行實施要點第二條以及執行執行規則的第二條來你看一下94年的施要點有一個但書就是說如果無理由或者是不受理而被駁回用同意原因在申請者不在此限也就是說如果他今天是用這些理由而被駁回的申請事項這個不在此限也就是要執行好那我們再回過頭來看您的"},{"start":1920.615,"end":1936.178,"text":"實行執行規則的第二條卻漏掉了這個但書那我們都知道立法者如果新法舊法新法的部分如果舊法很多東西沒有過渡到新法也就是說他有意為之的讓這個部分就不需要再去審酌了"},{"start":1937.571,"end":1956.041,"text":"我講這點非常的清楚嘛那這個會導致什麼我們都很我們都知道就法的時代如果你申請釋憲可是你用被大法官用無理由或不受理駁回你再申請的話依照以前的實施要點就這我不會甩你我們就執行但是到"},{"start":1956.561,"end":1957.001,"text":"公務委員說明一下"},{"start":1977.138,"end":1997.869,"text":"這個實施要點跟規則同時是並行都是存在的所以即使實行死刑規則沒有規定但是實行要點仍然在仍然要遵守那這樣子那不是跌床駕屋嗎有同一個行為有同一件事情兩個東西在規範那如果照部長您這樣講的是對的話那我們幹嘛要從實施要點進到規則"},{"start":2001.159,"end":2027.432,"text":"因為要讓他一次所以那你規則是不是說規則有定了你要點已經有那如果照你這樣講我還有規則存在那你要點就不用定啊那不是我就剛講的跌床架屋還是部長你願不願意承諾就實行執行規則第二條的這個部分請你把當初實施要點的但書把它加回去因為這個部分是法務部就可以做了"},{"start":2028.352,"end":2043.574,"text":"我們非常願意而且這個我們也同時在進行當中了因為他是不是同一個原因在我們送給市縣的大法官的時候我們都已經有看過所以目前的都不是相同的理由提出的所以我第一個說明"},{"start":2044.235,"end":2072.726,"text":"第二個說明就是說,即使是同一個理由,憲法法院也可以駁回。駁回的話,這個事件的案子就結束了,我們就可以執行了。申請到駁回還有一個時間。那你也沒有規範說他不可以重複申請。申請到駁回這個時間,他就一直跟你玩這個。所以,我建議你還是要回去趕快把這個規則稍微改一下。好不好,這部裡面就可以做這個決定了,不需要我們再經過這個立法院刪讀。好,那再來我想提一個東西。"},{"start":2074.636,"end":2089.374,"text":"如果這個時事廢質下法務部都沒有什麼處理的話我還是建議是不是我們要爭略無期徒刑不得假釋的這個東西出來讓將來法官在無期徒刑得假釋跟不得假釋他有一個選擇的空間"},{"start":2091.074,"end":2115.869,"text":"這是實體法的部分,布裡面是不是可以考量這個地方?是,我們都會考量。不管死刑的規定將來如何的釋憲結果,我們都有充分的準備。那部長這個不能跟我說用延誼喔,因為部長說過很多延誼嘛,很多次延誼。因為延誼這個東西對我以前我在代法治局的同仁來說,延誼的話就是同仁已經積極的在處理了。"},{"start":2116.329,"end":2128.274,"text":"所以這一塊要麻煩部長我們趕快不管廢不廢死至少找一個能夠替代的東西出來將來萬一有一天真的廢死的話我們才來得及去因應"},{"start":2130.083,"end":2157.509,"text":"最後我那個割喉案那個死者的父母養爸爸養媽媽來找過我那我也蠻感動那像部長你是愛家人嘛這個在檢察界非常有名氣愛家人愛小孩我們都很知道所以一定也能夠體會家族這種失去愛子的那種痛苦那我在那邊我把那個死者的父親養爸爸養媽媽給我的一個聲明我唸出來"},{"start":2159.464,"end":2187.634,"text":"難道使者因為不能為自己說話就該白白冤死嗎?我們的孩子的生命正要展開最美的人生時,卻無辜被責任。難道兇手就可以再被所謂的人權保障?如此,請人權團體還給我孩子的生命權,那我就不用再糾結了。兇手在審兇時兇殘自己,也沒有留給我兒子一點生的機會。"},{"start":2189.11,"end":2215.769,"text":"法律本該捍衛生命安全,而非來問我們要不要有死刑。難道法律要自白律法已死,人命不值錢嗎?請不要為了少數人的人權而損害大眾的生命安全。部長這個是家屬、楊爸楊媽媽寫給我的,我看了我也很難過。那部長您是我們中華民國死刑執行命令的簽署權人。"},{"start":2216.749,"end":2234.138,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2234.889,"end":2239.733,"text":"我個人執行過兩件事情所以我並不會因為我個人的因素我完全是依照法律的規定來執行如果所有的救濟程序都已經完畢的話我們該執行就執行"},{"start":2260.589,"end":2262.83,"text":"人權的保障加害人跟被害人是在天平是要平衡的"},{"start":2283.877,"end":2306.469,"text":"如果嚴重的向加害人傾斜,你、我、我們都不應該向這樣子的環境、這樣子的人權團體、錯誤的人權團體低頭。我們絕對不能低頭。部長,你跟我都是檢察官出身的啦。那我們對於維護社會治安還有人民安居樂業,我們當年都有那種無可救藥的熱情。我想部長一定也是這樣。"},{"start":2308.68,"end":2328.705,"text":"只有檢察官能夠為被害人申冤也只有檢察官總是站在被害人那一邊不是站在加害人那一側所以檢察官要為公平正義在奮鬥絕對不能為那個政治服務部長一定能夠理解那我也希望說我們彼此都本這個一本初衷堅持原則然後打擊這些"},{"start":2329.565,"end":2330.085,"text":"謝謝吳委員、鍾憲仁的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報議會"},{"start":2354.452,"end":2364.984,"text":"施法及法治組織質詢已詢答完畢。休息5分鐘。休息之後,我們進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":2712.267,"end":2715.916,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會,進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢。接下來我們請廖委員為詳質詢。"},{"start":2737.793,"end":2744.023,"text":"院長好,有請我們行政院院長陳院長以及我們的薛瑞元學部長麻煩請陳院長衛福部備詢,謝謝院長早安院長早"},{"start":2757.196,"end":2779.361,"text":"委員長部長這個健保開辦以來28年有極高的這個民意支持度但是現在在這個高支持度的背後我們卻看到是有我們血汗醫護所支撐甚至現在已經向下影響到整個醫療教育以及我們包含我們醫師公會理事長也說現在有很多學生看到我們醫療環境不佳影響選擇醫學系的意願"},{"start":2781.201,"end":2807.44,"text":"那包含我們統策衛生護理類報告也從2019年開始更是年年降低更是加劇了我們護理人員的人員荒那事實上現在在醫療現場前幾年的這個擊中南海然後內外婦兒無一不缺護理人力也流失嚴重導致醫院有病床卻也無法開許多病人就只能夠塞在急診室一待好幾天"},{"start":2808.24,"end":2812.372,"text":"所以想要請教院長部長我們的醫護人力荒有解嗎?"},{"start":2813.803,"end":2815.743,"text":"院長除了缺人和缺藥但是還有缺藥"},{"start":2840.109,"end":2860.797,"text":"那缺藥的因素也有很多,在生產端包含我們的原料藥的來源供應不急,還有供應鏈不穩定,製造品質或法規要求的改變,以及藥商的這個商業考量,更別說這個復型劑、膠囊殼甚至是物流因素等等都有可能造成缺藥,所以一顆小小的藥丸或是膠囊,它的產品鏈非常的長。"},{"start":2861.485,"end":2883.048,"text":"只要有一個小環節出狀況就容易造成缺藥另外在需求面也包括我們的庫存量的管理不佳突然增加的需求跟季節需求因素等也會造成缺藥所以缺藥的因素不一而足但是缺藥也有分短期缺藥跟長期缺藥那短期缺藥是可以透過很多手段解決但是如果是長期缺藥的話就要特別小心了"},{"start":2883.468,"end":2908.768,"text":"所以我想問院長您同意這樣的看法嗎?我覺得這個缺藥的問題確實是需要來很慎重的來解決。是,謝謝,謝謝院長。但是衛福部也很用很大的心力來調整。院長、部長,所以面對缺藥問題我之前有在委員會有做出決議,包含說同時符合三個條件下,藥價就可以這個排除在每年藥價調整之外或不受藥價調整影響。"},{"start":2910.185,"end":2936.727,"text":"那這三個條件分別是臨床上有需求也就是必須經過醫學會認證或者是藥事法第27之2條的必要的藥品清單中的藥品。第二個是鼓勵在地製造是希望可以穩定我們的供應鏈。那第三個就是三張以下的稀缺藥證。那院長這部分涉及修法請問4月中之前能否將此三項條件納入修法中的內容之中。"},{"start":2938.254,"end":2959.353,"text":"這一個部分我請衛福部來回答跟委員報告那委員所提出來這三個條件除了第一個那個醫學會認證因為我們在列這一個必要藥品的品項的時候都有跟醫學會這邊邀請他們確認過啦所以不一定需要再去寫一個說醫學會認證其他這三個部分的話我們都聲表贊同"},{"start":2964.816,"end":2988.808,"text":"現在是4月8日我們會召集相關的團體會做一個考量然後會送到健保的共理會議去所以4月底之前要完成這個所謂的規定的修改的話有一點點困難但是在上半年應該是沒有問題是好那請這個部長也盡快的加速進行"},{"start":2989.648,"end":3002.116,"text":"那我的條件之一是要釋法的二期之二的必要藥品清單嘛那既然是必要藥品代表這些藥品是不可或缺的目前總共是400多項但是院長你們知道這份清單多久才檢討一次嗎?"},{"start":3003.666,"end":3024.778,"text":"院長這個從食藥署的網頁依照我們公告的資料最近一次是去年的11月可是再上一次間隔了三年兩個月那在之前大概是平均約兩年所以院長部長既然是必要的藥品清單為何不能夠每年檢討一次尤其是現在的狀況之下因為現在國際上的供應鏈也仍然沒有很穩定"},{"start":3025.578,"end":3046.684,"text":"所以我的具體建議本期的具體建議是說有沒有可能改成每年檢討一次同時也在4月中之前或者是當然您剛有說時間時程上的部分可不可以提早的這個完成這個修法的預告作業如果是每年檢討應該是可行的那我們盡量來朝這個方向來做好謝謝"},{"start":3050.194,"end":3058.671,"text":"院長、部長,我們醫療的價值要等於我們醫療的品質也要等於我們醫療的點值這樣的理念您認同嗎?"},{"start":3060.23,"end":3079.838,"text":"最後一個健保的是不是等於健保點值因為我們現在是在總額預算的制度下去運作所以這個加量的關係所以是院長但是健保的點值長年以來一直被貶值造成現在醫療的困境醫療體系的困境那所以我們醫界為了生存"},{"start":3081.056,"end":3095.689,"text":"過去常常大家聽到的這個藥價差啦發展自費藥材啦或者是最近的解除掛號費上限等等都是我想這都是一介自救的手段但也因為如此我想整個醫療體系也會越來越扭曲病患也不滿意"},{"start":3096.63,"end":3118.328,"text":"所以院長你知道嗎醫療院所其實也不想這樣做但是這是為了生存也只能這麼做所以院長部長健保點值的這個老問題我想整個醫療體系不死不活那連我們台大院長都說醫療本業的利潤剩下1%如果他是企業的CEO他老早就被開除了請問院長你們現在還要調漲電價你認為台大吳院長所說的1%的利潤還有可能嗎"},{"start":3124.827,"end":3151.497,"text":"我想這個電價的調整如何來影響臺大醫院的營運我們需要再來評估電費所佔的百分比是多少但是呢我想我們依借大家所提出來的這些意見我們都會來作為檢討可是很重要的不要忘掉我們臺灣的健保還是在美國人心目中是很好的一個製度要多方來考量"},{"start":3151.937,"end":3163.096,"text":"是,院長因為醫院裡面的急診加護病房一般病房的空調也是不能夠中斷的難不成醫院因為電價太高就要把它關掉嗎?當然不會嘛,也不應該所以我們要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草"},{"start":3164.039,"end":3183.367,"text":"我們是覺得這樣不太合理所以院長像現在臺灣醫院協會醫事公會的全聯會護理師公會的全聯會還有我們臺灣私立醫院協會醫務管理學會等五大醫事團體聯合發出聲明欲請不要調漲醫療院所的電價請問院長你們可以答應嗎"},{"start":3184.668,"end":3207.657,"text":"院長下星期一就是4月1日這個調漲電價日所以我們希望本席希望本週五前是否可以給醫界一個答覆好嗎?這一個部分的話我們要來了解剛才我講過醫療院所的電費占他所有經營的這個百分比是多少我舉一個很簡單的例子比如說臺北捷運的話那我們調漲電價實際上對他的成本只影響1%"},{"start":3209.378,"end":3210.478,"text":"院長所以這個部分也要請你特別用心喔"},{"start":3235.126,"end":3249.769,"text":"因為要請您特別留意或是更加的嚴議因為你們的經濟部講出來今天也承認說他的這個沒有考量到這個烘焙機這個烘焙機的這個成本所以你們講出那個兩塊錢真的是瞎扯的"},{"start":3250.33,"end":3252.972,"text":"院長再來健保制度的運作讓政府現在的醫療政策上只能夠頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":3271.55,"end":3290.866,"text":"那也因為這樣所以我說現在的健保可能有三苦病人痛苦家屬辛苦那醫護命苦但是最根本的性的問題也是剛剛在講的長期以來這個健保點值的問題因為總而上限的問題造成許多醫院必須到處挖東牆補西牆那院長部長這個你們同意嗎"},{"start":3292.008,"end":3294.569,"text":"但是現在是血汗醫護的問題沒有院長我要跟您討論的是血汗醫護的問題"},{"start":3322.221,"end":3346.086,"text":"我要告訴你一個數據這兩年的健保浮動點值曾一度掉到0.8元以下但我們要說實際也有可能比這個更慘因為總額之下還有一個分區總額所以健保署的各分區業務組會跟他那個區域的各層級的醫院訂定一個目標額所以醫院也會想辦法可能會想辦法減少病患的就診數這就是所謂醫界裡面有在講的斷頭現象"},{"start":3348.126,"end":3369.414,"text":"所以實際的醫療服務量是可能根本沒有申報這也就是醫院為什麼抱怨說做得越多領得越少或者是虧得越多院長跟共健保制度當然是知識體大所以必須要做好社會溝通才能夠在最少的阻力之下進行改革但是現在醫護人力短缺等問題加上又要調漲電價所以這個醫療體系崩潰在"},{"start":3372.515,"end":3398.156,"text":"我已經在上週正式提出這個健全醫療發展特別條例是希望幫我們臺灣的醫療打強心針那這裡面最核心的也就是資本條例及本條例所編之特別預算通過後格計現保各分區各部門之總額浮動點值平均為打0.95元者應補足至0.95元基本上也就是希望保障點值最基本要0.95元"},{"start":3399.638,"end":3402.448,"text":"那這個部分也是要呼應我們一屆的主張"},{"start":3404.315,"end":3432.917,"text":"那另外要解決我們護理人力不足的部分我是針對地區級以上的醫院執行這個急性病床以及特殊病床照護的護理人員每月發給1萬元的津貼而且要撥補100億成立這個新藥發展基金這三個面向基本上是希望能夠幫助解決整個醫療體系現在的困境希望請問院長你們同意嗎部長同意嗎我覺得你完全不懂什麼叫做"},{"start":3434.258,"end":3459.612,"text":"建保的點子本來就是在建保整個的財務的運作裡面行之多年你這樣的情形有點外行我請我們部長回答這個特別條例要去保障點子是跟我們建保法裡面的總額預算的整個的制度是互相焊隔的所以如果萬一這一個特別條例通過的話"},{"start":3460.987,"end":3479.059,"text":"那實務上面怎麼樣去運用兩個不同的制度互相之間打架,這會產生很大的問題。是,部長我想跟你說的是健全醫療法案特別條例其實只有三年了,並且總額是3800億,我的想法是在不動總額的前提下,另外用這三年不動的總額來補貼。3800億是否是一個常識性的,"},{"start":3485.643,"end":3500.874,"text":"那這個常識性的是公務預算公務預算怎麼用到健保的這個要怎麼樣算這個知識體大而且是否都能夠每年有這樣子所謂的3800億這個是非常非常有問題"},{"start":3502.054,"end":3509.819,"text":"委員你一定要請教專家更深入了解這一個所有健保的財務才能夠做很好的條例啦。但是在溝通的時候除了醫療團體以外還有病人團體消費者團體還有學者專家通通要來考慮期望不要只針對單一的團體"},{"start":3525.367,"end":3527.748,"text":"也請這個院長部長先針對這個健保電點值常常在浮動的這個狀況我剛剛提出的其實不只是不只是這個部分點值就是會浮動"},{"start":3552.526,"end":3572.163,"text":"對,但是他們現在需要的是,是院長,因為我要跟你算的事情是這樣子啊,在疫情前平均是0.92的情況之下,大多數的一個層級的醫療院所,他們的獲利大概不到是5%,那其實他們對他們來講也很痛苦,在很多情況之下他也很難流財攬財,甚至也不敢做到這個醫療發展的部分喔。"},{"start":3572.583,"end":3601.309,"text":"所以這個部分是我希望說可以跟透過這樣子的聲音讓院長跟部長就是可以了解到有這個這樣的狀況然後也希望說有這樣的這樣子的特別條例也希望行政院如果你們有更好的版本如果你們可以提出來解決這樣的問題的話那本席也會支持喔所以我希望的是這件事情要讓院長部長請你們好好的去理解最後我也想花一點時間跟院長快問快答一下台中人口有多少"},{"start":3603.015,"end":3622.881,"text":"台中人口大概200多萬吧。284萬那高雄人口有多少?這裡你已經有答案了。273萬那高雄前瞻預算拿多少?這一個前瞻預算。1265億,院長我們這是快問快答好不好。台中前瞻預算拿多少?"},{"start":3624.307,"end":3636.668,"text":"兩百二十八億好不好高雄巨蛋中央補助有多少?七點五億台中巨蛋中央補助多少?零元會展中心東側也是零元高雄捷運中央補助多少?"},{"start":3637.762,"end":3637.942,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":3667.098,"end":3668.939,"text":"謝謝廖委員韋強的質詢,也謝謝陳委員長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二號陳委員召之質詢。"},{"start":3705.785,"end":3730.82,"text":"謝謝院長有請陳院長跟衛福部薛部長麻煩再請陳院長衛福部備選總委很早院長還有部長早我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人醫學的唯一解答就是代理孕母"},{"start":3732.011,"end":3755.002,"text":"我跟我先生也偷跑過但是後來我們決定放棄曝光而且公開呼籲要推動代孕解禁目的是要幫助其他的病友有機會實現他們的心願我一生從來沒有預期能夠今天在國會殿堂有30分鐘的時間"},{"start":3757.162,"end":3770.513,"text":"能夠來談今天的主題。我的主題就是等待文明來解禁代孕。等待文明來解禁代孕。院長20年前我寄了這本書給您"},{"start":3776.482,"end":3800.385,"text":"有,謝謝你。而且那本書寫得很好。你為病人團體所提供的這個呼籲我很感動。為什麼我不能有一個孩子?那時候是2004年的現在。當時我們台灣剛經歷過SARS。您被認為是一個成功的任務型的署長。所以我在蝴蝶葉上寫著。我在蝴蝶葉上寫著。"},{"start":3802.362,"end":3822.941,"text":"親愛的署長感謝您用愛心跟專業來守護臺灣我祈禱您的智慧跟您的慈悲等同您的權利跟職位幾天之後我去衛生署向您陳情而且我還指控人工生殖管理委員會是違憲的他們從來沒有讓病人進去說話"},{"start":3827.23,"end":3852.387,"text":"他們沒有法令卻用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人代孕我還向您指控他們是一言堂裡面充滿的充斥的反對的聲音連一個支持的聲音都沒有院長後來幾個月之後您用臺灣第一次的公民會議回應了我的需求"},{"start":3854.226,"end":3859.038,"text":"我在此再向院長致謝。謝謝院長。不會,不過很可惜這個"},{"start":3859.889,"end":3865.471,"text":"謝謝院長但是最近有一些反對者說我當年是逼迫您來做這個公民會議我何德何能所以是不是在今天的質詢台上你能夠幫忙釐清當時為什麼您願意舉行一個公民會議你的初衷跟你的想法是什麼"},{"start":3888.939,"end":3916.117,"text":"在2004年那個年代對於很多的新的一些醫療的措施怎麼樣來進行實際上很多聯醫界還有公民權利的這個學界都沒有很了解所以而當時最好的一個方法就是用公民審議的方式讓公民在得到很完整的知識的情況下能夠來做決定所以我也採納了我們臺大的"},{"start":3917.545,"end":3941.362,"text":"社會科學院的同仁還有法律學院的同仁的建議來實施這個選議會。謝謝院長您的釐清這對我非常的重要那我也想告訴院長跟部長在2002年的時候賴清德立委賴清德立委他就提出了支持代孕的法案當時連署人也有蕭美琴立委陳其邁立委"},{"start":3944.093,"end":3968.588,"text":"總計這個提案人跟連署人總共超出了30位可見當時立委們對這個制度對這個法案是有共識的那這份提案的總說明因為是發生在22年前有他的時空背景他的用詞我稍微念一下一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素這是不可彌補的身體缺憾"},{"start":3969.888,"end":3996.936,"text":"應該被公平地視為升職機能上的障礙者我們的社會仍然相當重視傳統接待在社會價值觀沒有改變之前對於這些升職機能有障礙的人應該用寬大包容的心來幫助他們而不是意外地要求他們要放棄生育權被強迫去收養小孩請問院長準總統跟準副總統在2022年前"},{"start":3999.477,"end":4020.873,"text":"就提出不應該一面的要求我們放棄生育權。這個平等法案您支持嗎?我當然支持。部長、學部長您近期一直對這個法案說它是有爭議的。你知道您這個說法傷了多少人的心嗎?你知道天下哪一件事沒有爭議呢?"},{"start":4022.506,"end":4044.168,"text":"部長請問您看到賴立委、蕭立委他們在22年前就提出了這樣的法案,您會告訴他們說你們提出了一個非常有爭議性的法案嗎?蕭部長請回答,謝謝這個是一個事實,那對於這件事情人工代孕的這個事實的話是有不同的看法"},{"start":4045.822,"end":4063.225,"text":"社會上有不同的看法。等一下我繼續給您更多的證據。請看下一張圖。你看當時的賴清德立委是多麼的認真。他很努力收集資料在告訴這些立委們為什麼他支持。而且他還做了一個調查,調查這些立委們。"},{"start":4064.286,"end":4093.058,"text":"包括當時是國民黨、民進黨還有新黨的立委。跨越藍綠總共超過30個人以上是簽署了這個法案而且他們的民調是這樣的他們確認代孕是需求是存在的是正確的是需要大於不需要而且當時同意支持代孕制度的民進黨立委占了56%是最高的我這個讓部長跟院長都了解"},{"start":4094.977,"end":4118.219,"text":"我想跟兩位所長談我們的故事跟人生有很多人傳播錯誤的觀念說不孕不是病所以有一位很有名的黃姓諮商商說我們只需要群體的心理治療還有一位前台北市社會局顧局長他說不孕不是病為什麼會痛苦"},{"start":4120.046,"end":4146.56,"text":"有人把代孕當成八卦議題來討論。我也曾經被保健處處長指著說,昭茲,你的社會運動要適可而止。還有一位非常知名的法律系教授對我說,人生不能什麼都想要。另外還有更多的人對我們說,不孕的解答就是收養。但是收養跟不孕有什麼關係呢?"},{"start":4148.666,"end":4177.495,"text":"某位前法務部部長他在電視上公然跟我說收養跟親生一樣好不過他自己是親生的那也有一位前總統他公開呼籲當時台灣有很多的棄嬰那個年代他說台灣有很多可憐的棄嬰請不孕夫妻要發揮民族大愛去收養這些小孩這就是我們經歷的故事跟人生"},{"start":4180.134,"end":4201.084,"text":"人工生殖技術帶來了非常大的挑戰,對生命改變了很多。例如說沒有精或卵子,我們也有機會有下一代,這就是所謂的捐精捐卵。例如說生命的起點可以發生在實驗室而不是輸卵管。"},{"start":4202.472,"end":4231.461,"text":"人工生殖技術也切割了生育跟養育的連結。比如說代理運動。人工生殖技術把自古以來生育的連結、連續性分割了。每一個分割點就是診斷不應或治療不應的非常關鍵的一個因素。人工生殖技術甚至可以幫助有一些罹患重病的病人,包括癌症。他們可能因為治療而失去生育力。"},{"start":4232.501,"end":4257.54,"text":"但是仍然抱著一線希望未來還是可以保有追求幸福的這樣的一個期待其實我要講代孕其實是奶媽的延伸古代的人媽媽奶水不夠他需要奶媽來奶他的孩子那我們呢我們就是子宮不健康啊我需要一個溫暖的子宮讓我的孩子長大"},{"start":4259.161,"end":4282.299,"text":"人工生殖科技帶來這麼多生命的改變但是非常殘忍的就是禁止子宮有缺陷的人不可以用這些科技這是多麼的殘忍跟不人道我今天要在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議為什麼子宮有障礙的人他就是不能使用這個科技"},{"start":4285.475,"end":4312.445,"text":"整個社會從來沒有停止對我們的挑戰跟質疑所以身為已經知道自己是不孕的人我會問自己我有資格結婚嗎?我有資格戀愛嗎?我什麼時候該揭露我的資訊呢?什麼時候講?對誰講?我曾經為一對竹科的情侶的女方家長她媽媽寫的切結書讓我做見證人"},{"start":4316.021,"end":4343.958,"text":"確切書上寫的內容是隱瞞病情是因男方的要求因為他媽媽擔心女兒對不起婆家請問家庭與社會對我們的期待是什麼?結婚的時候難道最常見的祝福語不是早生貴子嗎?結婚以後最常出現的一句問候語難道不是什麼時候生小孩嗎?"},{"start":4346.761,"end":4372.819,"text":"其實我們還是有身體隱私上的困擾曾經有一位臺大醫科五年級學生的媽媽來找我求救她的女兒嚷著要休學為什麼呢因為課堂上要做理學檢查同學們互相做理學檢查她擔心自己的秘密被曝光其實我們就醫時我個人也很擔心我要怎麼跟醫師說"},{"start":4375.37,"end":4401.927,"text":"在我們的婚姻過程當中我被要求做子宮頸抹面檢查的時候我該怎麼辦呢?所以有時候我有不得不的謊言我在美國念書的時候我媽媽非常擔心我的室友發現我不需要使用衛生棉她擔心我的身體秘密會曝光我常常祈禱我不要生病住院否則大家都知道我發生了什麼事情"},{"start":4404.707,"end":4434.41,"text":"看病的時候其實我們是充滿焦慮的因為合格的醫師一定會問一句上次你的月經什麼時候來這個跟用藥是有關的這個時候我只好編一個日期編造一個日期給他護光後我最常面對的話語就是健康人的道德勸說他會說沒有小孩也很好但是他們都有小孩更多人說收養跟親生的一樣好但是他們絕對是親生孩子"},{"start":4436.618,"end":4456.42,"text":"那麼各界對不孕夫妻最常有的呼籲是什麼呢?就是要我們去收養小孩、收養棄嬰、收養孤兒。請問局外人可以為我們指定選項嗎?請問局外人可以安排我們的人生嗎?請問我們重大的人生選項需要局外人來做指定嗎?"},{"start":4458.7,"end":4478.576,"text":"各位可以想見當事人們有多大的壓力以至於30年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開承認我們需要代孕30年來只有我一個人陳昭志一個人從頭到尾扮演代言人為什麼呢"},{"start":4480.182,"end":4486.285,"text":"院長、部長,我們還要受到凌遲多久呢?我收養小孩了。我的孩子被公認是個暖男。他在學校非常的活躍,也得過利他獎。"},{"start":4506.786,"end":4531.958,"text":"但是不要忘記也有一位射精地位很高的政治人物他的收養案例是失敗的30幾歲以後孩子30幾歲以後他們終止了收養關係可見收養不是一件容易的事情不孕者的選項是什麼?終身無後嗎?收養小孩嗎?還是可以訴諸人工生殖科技"},{"start":4533.373,"end":4559.718,"text":"我要談的重點是其實收養的問題遠遠大於捐精捐卵收養本身是一個讓我來形容因為我做過了我收養了孩子他是一個不自願捐精加不自願捐卵加不自願代孕三種組合三件事情的後遺症都會發生在收養身上收養在臺灣還是一個相對禁忌的話題"},{"start":4561.988,"end":4562.489,"text":"所以我要告訴兩位首長"},{"start":4582.745,"end":4586.108,"text":"我曾經詢問衛福部社家署的署長,因為他們負責收出養業務。我非常驚訝,但是"},{"start":4606.533,"end":4631.761,"text":"也如預期的完全沒有資料。臺灣沒有這些收出養的資料會等分析評估。你們知道嗎其他多少國家他對收養法不斷的檢討不斷的改進甚至英國幾十版的修正為什麼呢因為收養的問題層出不窮接下來我想談法律跟科技的落差"},{"start":4633.346,"end":4660.03,"text":"醫學生殖科技進步了可以幫助不孕原因的診斷跟治療但是我們的感受是子宮有障礙不是不救是不肯救不是不救是不肯救生殖科技原是為了幫助人民增進幸福滿足他的心願但是政府與反對者卻要我們接受命運禁止我們使用科技"},{"start":4661.929,"end":4685.974,"text":"所以有資源的人只好回避禁令,偷偷在國內,是的,偷偷在國內,包括我的曾經,在國內進行待遇,或遠到海外去執行待遇。有關人工生殖法的部分,我也很有意見。捐金捐軟,尤其是捐金這個部分,在默許了十幾年之後,在2007年才立法管理。"},{"start":4687.418,"end":4715.225,"text":"而且據我瞭解我也向國建署瞭解過捐金沒有追蹤後果堪慮啊大運那麼清楚卻要阻擋經過兩次公民會議的討論長期被擱置我覺得這是歧視這是偏見我在這裡要國會殿堂表達最嚴重的抗議對大運是歧視去偏見我要提出最嚴重的抗議"},{"start":4718.12,"end":4740.809,"text":"我也要再次抗議違憲的行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕他們處罰的對象是醫師不讓醫師來幫病人做最嚴重的時期甚至是威脅要撤銷醫師的證照所以我一輩子不會說合法化我講的是代孕解禁我講的是法治化因為我們從來沒有犯過法"},{"start":4743.069,"end":4747.553,"text":"我也曾經長期向立法委員們訴願請願我參與過無數的公聽會我一直訴諸媒體甚至醫學課堂我在1996年用真實姓名去面對"},{"start":4758.381,"end":4784.8,"text":"大眾用報紙呼籲要解禁代孕我在2010年那是SARS之後教育部規劃了一個醫學人文課程當中有一堂課叫做疾病的誤解跟社會偏見我受邀到全國的醫學系去上課我談的就是代孕那一次的課程那幾年的課程讓我覺得代孕從八卦的議題進入大學的教室讓我覺得這是馳來的正義"},{"start":4787.113,"end":4813.672,"text":"我也受到非常強烈的震撼。請問各位有人看過民國八十年的報紙嗎?這一份是民國八十年的報紙。民國八十年10月23日的報紙。民生報。它的標題是一個沒有子宮女人的生歸院。後面三個字大概是編輯加上去的。指標題是沒有法故事永遠沒有結局。"},{"start":4815.12,"end":4840.438,"text":"其實當時民生報錯把比名的位置放了真名讓我痛不欲生後來總編李淑娟向我道歉第二天我們做了一些補救讓我的醫師跟我寫了一些文章我只稱這個病人是我的朋友不是我自己但是為了幫助他我用第一人稱來稱呼他其實那個病人是我自己"},{"start":4841.704,"end":4866.466,"text":"只是當時我還沒有準備好要公開面對這件事情我當初在呼籲代孕解禁的時候的觀點是不孕者跟不孕家庭的權益因為當時有很多國家都是先進國家歐美國家通過了代孕他們沒有少子化國安問題也沒有傳宗接代的壓力那他為什麼會同意呢因為他們認為這是人權"},{"start":4869.997,"end":4895.255,"text":"但是時至今日我想院長跟部長都知道臺灣一直都是生育率倒數前兩名2017年開始我們出生的孩子的人數已經少於死亡的人數在我的辦公室也歡迎各位來參觀我的辦公室門口會貼的這兩個數字出生人數跟死亡人數上個月出生人數不到1萬人已經破了新低了"},{"start":4896.175,"end":4907.432,"text":"但是整個國家的人口政策都偏重在要求呼籲幫助健康的人要生小孩這是沒有錯的但是對於無法生育的人呢"},{"start":4909.25,"end":4935.355,"text":"對於代孕需求的人絕口不提。為什麼?我這裡想請問部長,對於少數偏激、自私、健康、充滿意識、情態、充滿悲憾、妄想症的一群反對者,他們的意見有那麼重要嗎?我們需求者的意見呢?還有我們的心願呢?還有願意幫助我們成全代孕的這群女性的意願呢?"},{"start":4936.858,"end":4952.035,"text":"難道政府沒有自己的政策方針嗎?難道你認為多一事不如少一事嗎?部長這個部分的話其實就是他完全是有非常大的爭議因為這牽涉到一個第三人"},{"start":4952.898,"end":4975.594,"text":"那剛剛委員所提出啊2002年嘛那時候賴清德副總統當立委的時候他有推這個案子但是後來沒有通過我想要告訴你齁所以表示說那個爭議還是連台灣齁請不要再做生意啦爭議好嗎您的東西很多衛福很多東西是爭議的啊造作不悟啊"},{"start":4977.431,"end":4992.364,"text":"爭議這件事情我可以告訴你因為全台灣只有我最多這個數字願意代孕的女性比需求的女性告訴我的還多我手上是一堆名單請不要忽略這些願意幫人家代孕人他的心願這也是他的權利他想成全別人"},{"start":4995.424,"end":5021.558,"text":"請部長了解一下什麼叫公民會議下一張公民會議公民會議就是他是個簡稱原來叫公民共識會議這是民主國家行之有年一種審議式的民主公民會議就是讓一群公民他沒有具有專業知識基礎這群公民是經過報名然後隨機取樣的然後他們會針對這個爭議性的政策進行討論然後找出他們想要了解的問題然後在一個公開的論壇上"},{"start":5022.719,"end":5046.08,"text":"就向這個專家學者們詢問他們自己也可以指定誰來讓他們做備選然後他們在有一定程度的知識跟訊息的基礎下他們討論他們辯論他們找出結論他們找出共識然後做成報告公諸於世交給國家做政策的參考這就叫公民會議"},{"start":5047.796,"end":5064.091,"text":"院長我知道您還記得這個您幫我主持這次會議這是多麼嚴謹而且參與者是高度了解所有資訊的人所謂的well informed就是充分知情的一群公民他們的結論是同意的"},{"start":5064.972,"end":5080.7,"text":"而且院長你答應我半年後有進度誒陳院長我現在還在苦苦等待你當年的承諾你可以兌現你的承諾嗎當時你只是衛生署署長現在你貴為行政院院長你可以兌現您對我的承諾嗎"},{"start":5082.398,"end":5106.221,"text":"這就是在當時公民審議會議之後我們也是把相關的法律準備要提出但是很可惜很可惜在立法院的討論就如同剛才另外一個案子也一樣都沒有在大院裡面得到通過我覺得國家政府應該有自己的政策不是什麼都訴諸民意我看到民意不高的也照做"},{"start":5108.261,"end":5132.848,"text":"對,所以這裡面就是有不同的我們來回顧一下公民會議的兩次公民會議的這個結論我們第一次在2014年就是林丹任署長的時候當時有兩項結論第一個是同意有條件開放代孕第二項很特別的就是因為我剛剛提到很多人叫我們收養不要去搞代孕所以我很成功的說服那群公民把收養制度也放在這一次的結論裡"},{"start":5134.028,"end":5150.842,"text":"有關收養之主他們是這麼講的,不應該因為有需要收養的孩童而將收養強加於不孕者,並對選擇代孕者加以嚴厲的道德批判。這就是我被對待的方式。收養與代孕不是誰優於誰的價值判斷,都是可採行的管道。"},{"start":5152.26,"end":5177.292,"text":"這麼清楚具有邏輯還具有價值觀的這個結論竟然在20年前的公民會議會出現實在是令人敬佩跟感動他們很了不起他們當時我讓部長有一邊了解公民會議的水準第二次公民會議是發生在2012年9月邱淑婷署長的時代我就唸一下她的結論不應委託者同時提供金跟軟就同時都有了應該早日開放"},{"start":5178.012,"end":5203.065,"text":"無應委託的僅提供其中一個經貨卵也應該予以開放。那無論最終政府開放的是哪一種類型的代孕政府都應該積極介入代孕制度的運作政府要積極介入當時國建署副署長孔憲蘭也在記者會公開說未身處傾向支持這個代孕然而一言當那是2012年又經過12年了好"},{"start":5207.335,"end":5232.33,"text":"一年來我們做了多少努力。1996年行政院法會委主委陳美玲主委曾推出夾疑兩版的草案。2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請英美專家跟當事者到台灣來分享、討論。從此以後國建署非常積極地召開會議,最後在2016年提出了草案。"},{"start":5233.919,"end":5252.348,"text":"那這當中國建署做了三次全國性的民調全國性的民調2010年2013年2015年大體上的結論是六成人支持兩成人不反對所以臺灣有八成的民眾是可以接受代孕的但是儘管有國際研討會"},{"start":5254.279,"end":5279.059,"text":"兩次公民會議、全國性的民調三次以及無數的公聽會、國建署的草案到今天人工生殖法還是選擇性的無視於這些子宮有障礙的待遇需求。院長一個攸關生育權的法案您覺得延宕了30年合情合理合法合憲嗎?院長我想我們再繼續來努力"},{"start":5280.592,"end":5291.144,"text":"院長跟部長,你要臨時我們多久呢?你要繼續臨時我們就需求的多久呢?報告委員,這最終的解決還是必須要在立法院"},{"start":5292.424,"end":5317.119,"text":"我們是可以說盡量在各個過程把它縮短,把草案送到議會。我聽到你要盡量做,就是說您是一個婦產科醫師,我現在見到反對者的理由跟意識形態。好,這麼多年來,我們來看反對者反對了什麼。30年來理由一成不變了。反對者指控我們說,這個會讓兒童的心理不平衡不健康。"},{"start":5318.968,"end":5345.717,"text":"但是明明就有很多很多國外的研究指出透過代孕生出的孩子跟傳統方式生出的小孩他們做比較在心理健康跟生理健康根本沒有差別好嗎這種臆測之詞這個是空想之詞完全不符合科學的驗證這是第一個大家都可以去查這個報告第二個反對者指控代孕會將女性物化或工具化"},{"start":5347.318,"end":5370.64,"text":"我想相對於妻子跟媳婦,帶孕難道不是最有百分之百的主導權嗎?他不是有百分之百的自主權嗎?我能夠逼迫一個女生幫我帶孕嗎?你知道倫理學的基礎是什麼?我想院長或部長應該知道,倫理學的基礎就是一個自主性,autonomy,是最高的原則。"},{"start":5371.901,"end":5397.583,"text":"自主性是非常重要的當然不孕夫妻他可以選擇生或不生他可以選擇要不要去委託代孕代孕者有百分百的權利決定他要不要幫人家代孕他有百分之百的決定權哪來的物化跟工具化之說呢如果那些反對者如果我是你的女兒如果我是你最愛的親人你還會這樣指控我嗎"},{"start":5399.722,"end":5414.136,"text":"還有一些人指控代孕者會因為射精弱勢被欺壓。非常感謝另外一位委員陳金輝委員他也是婦產隔離師他在質詢的時候或是在公聚會的時候都清楚的指出他用了最新的一篇報告"},{"start":5415.017,"end":5443.96,"text":"加拿大的研究報告287位代理母大家都是基於利他的心態helping others幫助別人的心態去做代孕他們認為代孕是在助人在幫助人擁有一個家庭而且53%的人是大學教育以上50%的人是有工作的他不是工作他不是經濟弱勢也不是貧窮者部長從曝光的第一天我從來都不是為自己但是我背後站了一群需求的人"},{"start":5445.137,"end":5468.756,"text":"曾經有多少人在這30年當中苦苦等待終至絕望正式進入醫師的傷心檔案兩位知道什麼叫傷心檔案嗎?傷心檔案裡面最悲慘的案件是什麼嗎?院長部長那就是有女性因為不孕而結束自己的生命所以我希望部長跟院長可以把這幾句話帶回去放在心上帶回去"},{"start":5469.973,"end":5494.301,"text":"將心比心,成全別人追求幸福,是人生的最高境界。希望你們回去用行動來幫助我們。議長,我再提醒您。我知道您說您曾期許自己成為世上的光、地上的炎。要做一支小蠟燭,照亮台灣。"},{"start":5495.771,"end":5523.831,"text":"院長,我希望您能秉持這個觀念,秉持這個信念為我們這群弱勢的病人發光,成為他們的光,好嗎?院長好,謝謝你為不孕症者所反映的這一些心聲我覺得你很勇敢而且很慈悲很善良那這件事情我們會全力以赴各界再來做最深入的溝通希望在短期內就有很好的成果那也期許部長"},{"start":5529.716,"end":5538.673,"text":"謝謝陳委員召職質詢,也謝謝陳院長的背信。接下來我們請登記第三位林委員義軍質詢。"},{"start":5565.1,"end":5586.992,"text":"有請院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢院長早安院長早首先請教院長自從全民健保實施10多年來印象中你覺得有哪一年是沒有虧損的呢"},{"start":5590.329,"end":5613.294,"text":"這個詳細的情形我不太清楚,但是每一年我想我們大概都能夠來讓健保很好的營運。我們當它面臨到困難的時候,你也很清楚,我們就會調漲費率或者是用不同的方法。這就是我後面要說的,就是健保署我們每次都會說我們都要嚴格把關,對不對?"},{"start":5614.574,"end":5634.751,"text":"但是結果我們都是直接砍要價,不然就是調漲健保費,增加民眾的就醫上面的負擔,企圖讓全民買單還是移藥養醫,其實這看起來齁,其實衛福部和健保署好像惹得民怨啊,還有無奈很無辜啊,也很冤枉,但其實其實整個大"},{"start":5635.712,"end":5663.133,"text":"的問題受害的其實都是民眾本席也認為對於衛福部還有健保署來說其實這些問題都實在是非戰之罪但是本席認為健保嚴重的虧損問題本來就是衛福部在醫療制度上沒有正在民眾用藥的權益上而造成規劃錯誤的結果所以在臺灣的醫療還有健保的制度上面我是想要來談談長期很重視的一個結構上面的問題"},{"start":5664.034,"end":5689.489,"text":"就是醫藥分業那醫藥分業是臺灣體系上很重要的一個議題雖然我們政府其實是醫藥分業也實施了20年了但目前我國屬於比較特殊的雙軌制雙軌制就是說醫院和診所都可以僱用藥師在院所內做調劑而我們看到很多先進的國家其實現在已經完整的整個採納當軌制"},{"start":5691.77,"end":5717.757,"text":"當委之就是院所完全釋出處方簽,包含歐美各國還有臨近我們日本和韓國都已經開始推行完全分離的醫藥分業的制度。甚至2000年才開始實施的醫藥分業的韓國處方簽的釋出到現在幾乎都是百分百了。而我們長期在臺灣醫藥分業的問題中其實我們大家也都知道,都有看到首先是藥師對處方簽的獨立的專業性。"},{"start":5721.178,"end":5741.499,"text":"在一般的情形下醫生大約都是診斷治療還有開立處方簽不調劑藥師就是調劑前評估處方內容是否適當但是醫師跟藥師如果同屬在一個醫療的機構下使藥師難以對處方提出客觀的建議和質詢"},{"start":5743.021,"end":5771.252,"text":"其實加上這些醫生跟藥師互相的僱傭關係會造成藥師根本沒有辦法很客觀的評估用藥上面的合理性還有藥價差嚴重的藥價的問題會產生所以我現在就是說院長部長我們來回想一下就是回想一下疫情期間的事情在新冠肺炎的期間我們有發現當初為了預防病人到大醫院會發生他怕他們感染"},{"start":5771.932,"end":5794.082,"text":"所以患者在慢性病的病情穩定之下其實有很多大醫院都願意提高慢遷處方釋出的意願因為讓病人到家裡附近的社區藥局去領藥不但可以預防民眾為了單純領藥再次回到醫院受到感染而且可以增加病人在家裡附近社區藥局領藥的便利性"},{"start":5794.762,"end":5813.752,"text":"那原本可以在社區藥局領藥的病人、家屬都可以不用再坐車勞頓到大醫院去領藥,也可以受到社區藥局的照顧、就近的照顧。所以顯然大醫院釋出處方簽的制度是可以行的,只是醫院願不願意而已,對不對?"},{"start":5815.018,"end":5827.848,"text":"跟委員報告齁那這一個部分的話其實剛剛委員提到是一個是醫院一個是在診所那醫院裡面有許多的處方是要當場去處理的你把它釋出出去再回來的話那個"},{"start":5829.285,"end":5844.236,"text":"大概不太可行,比方說政績等等這一類的,這個的話釋出再回來是可行性不高的。那我們很感謝藥師在疫情期間在社區藥局方面給這個全體民眾的一個幫忙。"},{"start":5847.579,"end":5858.365,"text":"讓這個漫簽那能夠釋出之後在社區要求就能夠來做調劑那給民眾的便利減少了這一個感染的可能性但是這一個"},{"start":5859.71,"end":5878.166,"text":"如果說基層或者是不管是醫院或基層的診所他要把處方釋出全部釋出的話我們又必須要考慮到偏遠地區沒有社區藥局的地方這樣子的話會對於民眾產生非常不利的影響"},{"start":5878.746,"end":5879.846,"text":"對不起我現在手上沒有這個資料"},{"start":5894.991,"end":5922.202,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是說在藥品的市場上大醫院藥品的議價和社區藥局的議價你覺得哪一個比較優勢呢當然量大的醫院的話議價能力是會比較高的那院長我想問一下在健保砍藥價的制度上藥廠都被砍了藥價然後藥廠覺得成本不服所以直接退出市場造成民眾無藥可用這種會發生缺藥危機那院長你覺得這個是我們樂見的嗎"},{"start":5923.984,"end":5950.622,"text":"當然不是我們樂見的可是一個藥會退出這個臺灣的市場有很多的理由藥價是其中之一另外也是有沒有新的藥物進來還有沒有其他的同等要效的藥物進來而它的價格跟它是有所競爭所以我們不能夠以單一的藥物是不是離開這個市場就來判斷而應該要看同品質的藥到底是不是"},{"start":5951.262,"end":5979.098,"text":"有其他的競爭者這個是在要價的決定上也是一個很重要的一個參考所以其實我們其實可以做一個更好的政策來選擇其實如果我們採用讓六大公立醫院就是臺大、成大、三總、北榮、中榮還有高榮完全釋出處方簽制度是否可以試辦看看呢這樣是不是會讓藥品回歸到市場的機制然後也可以落實保障全民的用藥的權益"},{"start":5980.299,"end":6007.171,"text":"那樣更對藥價問題或許可以找到解方這樣不是一舉兩得政府和民眾都雙贏嗎?這不完全是這樣我剛剛提到過不是所有的藥都釋出是最好的比如說針劑等等這一些在社區藥局他的備藥也是有限的所以他不可能所有這些所有的藥通通備齊所以"},{"start":6008.271,"end":6026.524,"text":"這個會造成民眾的一個不方便,所以這個是可以來嘗試,如果說委員在講的是慢性處方牽的這個部分的話,那當然我們可以來在制度上做一點點調整來做這樣子的一個考慮,這當然是可以研議的。"},{"start":6026.544,"end":6051.973,"text":"其實我們可以做一個配套其實剛才我講的醫藥分業的話如果是說處方簽的釋出做一個配套其實可以讓如果民眾在用藥方面的權益還有就是說便民的情況下這種事我們都可以來研討看看的剛才那個部長有講到說如果我們慢性處方簽可以六大公立醫院提高他們的百分比"},{"start":6053.113,"end":6077.245,"text":"這樣的話其實我覺得這是可行的因為之前疫情期間就是這樣就有提高到百分之三十百分之四十其實這樣的政策其實我覺得民眾的反應都是蠻好的其實現在的制度也沒有排除說這個處方箋釋出可以到這些大醫院可以到社區藥局去做調劑而且事實上也已經很多民眾"},{"start":6077.705,"end":6078.185,"text":"我們可以設定一個目標來做推動"},{"start":6104.121,"end":6120.534,"text":"委員你可能也聽過嘛在美國常常有像說有一些VA hospital他發現說奇怪怎麼這個病人一出去以後這個垃圾桶裡面很多處房間就是因為他領藥不方便他還要去藥房結果"},{"start":6121.094,"end":6122.215,"text":"可是在疫情的情況下其實社區藥局他們就是"},{"start":6150.989,"end":6167.504,"text":"不過委員剛剛有提到一個說在醫院裡面的藥師沒有辦法發揮功能這一句話我是不贊成的啦在醫院裡面的藥師仍然他有秉持他的專業在做他應該做的事情並不是說只是因為他受雇於醫院然後他對這些"},{"start":6168.945,"end":6171.807,"text":"我跟委員報告在醫院裡面反而這種藥師的建議是比較強的如果是在這個基層診所跟社區藥局之間這種建議反而是弱的"},{"start":6195.644,"end":6206.054,"text":"就是說藥師要把對於這個醫師的處方有意見然後要回饋過去在社區藥局我所知道現在這個情形是比較重要的。但是要考慮到病人的方便性。"},{"start":6215.362,"end":6230.714,"text":"我舉個例子比如說我拿到一個醫師的主房間我到你那裡去拿藥你說這個藥不行那你就跟我講說你回去跟這個醫師說你開的藥不對那我是病人我認住了說Oh my god那我還要再去看醫師然後呢"},{"start":6233.015,"end":6255.181,"text":"他說我在醫院拿會不會比較方便,所以這個是需要多方,病人、醫師、藥師的方面,一個體制,對對對,要配套。現在就是每一個地方,每一個各國都已經醫藥分業了,但是我們就是還在做到雙軌制,明明就是可以當軌制的,是不是我們也要往前再進一步呢?"},{"start":6256.481,"end":6281.515,"text":"這個可能我們要來考慮一下的問題好現在我再來講下一個因為那個還有一個缺藥的問題藥價都不斷的調降藥廠都不願意生產藥了然後藥局接到慢性處方籤都虧損最後倒霉的都是生病的民眾這樣藥價的問題不斷的在惡性循環所以月初的時候其實我有在3月7號委員會中有質詢有提出意見"},{"start":6282.655,"end":6291.505,"text":"希望衛福部可以在調降藥價的情況下要考慮一下現實的情況才可以符合民意啊比如說我那天建議的關於連續處方簽的問題一般都是開3個月嘛對不對然後這個處方簽"},{"start":6297.692,"end":6313.071,"text":"是否在未來三個月都要改成就醫日期那一天的藥價為主呢?這樣是不是能保證患者後面兩個月的用藥呢?可是衛福部的一直的行政命令可以就可以讓保障民眾的"},{"start":6313.792,"end":6337.412,"text":"的用藥的有一些權益上面可以受到保障然後藥局也不會虧損的那麼慘所以我覺得每次政府都在調價藥價上面都調價的非常的開心可是沒有考慮到人民的生活難道藥師就不是人嗎對不對為什麼要把藥師當成壞人呢藥師是第一線要解決民眾用藥專業的人士提供民眾用藥的"},{"start":6338.553,"end":6367.695,"text":"要舉虧損最後大家都經營不下去了所以導致病人都沒有要吃然後也沒有要拿這樣是真的對人民是好事嗎所以疫情期間像你們也知道就是說要是真的全心全意都在配合協助政府的各個防疫的政策嗎難道辛苦的醫療人員有沒有被注重呢所以針對那一天我在委員會提出的慢性處方前三個月的"},{"start":6368.823,"end":6388.636,"text":"這件事情其實我都沒有得到一個滿意的答案這個部分跟委員報告齁其實我們在每一次要調調完要價之後的公佈會是有一個公佈跟開始實施的時候還是會有一個緩衝期差不多一個月啦那我知道委員在關心的是社區要求"},{"start":6389.336,"end":6412.898,"text":"當它本來幾戶比較高,所以它進價的時候可能是比較高。當這個健保條件要價之後的話,那幾戶就沒有那麼高。但是成本還是一樣,這個我了解。但是它的差距也只不過是在短短的一兩個月中間而已啦。那為了這一個事情的話,如果要整個的系統要重新去做修正的話,"},{"start":6413.519,"end":6442.278,"text":"那會非常的我覺得這是可以的啊因為你們常常在調藥價啊對不對你兩個月調一次五個月調一次的話一年一次而已一年一次而已但是有些東西還是有在稍微燒條啊沒有那麼多但是社區藥局的這個所謂準備的備藥的話他的量不會很多真正會就是說有損失的其實是金額非常少所以以成本效益的來看的話為了這件事情然後整個健保的"},{"start":6443.498,"end":6444.399,"text":"委員請衛福部把相關的資料"},{"start":6469.992,"end":6470.852,"text":"謝謝林委員、易軍的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。"},{"start":6496.411,"end":6516.136,"text":"接下來我們請登記第4號賴委員事保質詢。謝謝主席。以及各位先進有請行政院陳院長。來請陳院長備詢。賴委員早。你早。"},{"start":6525.216,"end":6546.358,"text":"我請教陳院長現在我剛看到媒體有一些報導說你對於馬英九前總統4月1號要到大陸去尊重他個人的決定那麼你的看法是尊重沒有評論還是說more than happy看到這樣他去"},{"start":6546.987,"end":6571.642,"text":"我想我尊重他個人的選擇而且他如果需要在中國的時候需要有一些安全的保障政府一定會來提供相權的保護但是我也希望馬前總統因為他是我們的前總統所以對於國人在有關於臺灣的主權自由民主的這些價值的這個期待也能夠符合我們國人的盼望"},{"start":6572.452,"end":6596.698,"text":"你看一下他去年就去了齁他去年在大陸每到一個地方都大批的大陸媒體每天的大幅報導他去那裡講什麼講中華民國講什麼他是中華民國的總統講什麼講中華民國112年去年的時候他到處在大陸的時候到處講中華民國到處"},{"start":6599.199,"end":6626.732,"text":"說中華民國到處說我們的憲法這就是你剛剛說的有一點質疑的主權東西他其實在去年展現如意啊你讀一讀,把他google一下,把他找一下清清楚楚,而且不要忘了院長所有的民調,最近的民調台灣民力基金會比較老實講大家認為他中間偏綠吧或者說中間也好,或者是淺綠whatever"},{"start":6628.79,"end":6656.536,"text":"將近八成的臺灣人民希望兩岸交流,多交流。兩岸多交流可以遠離戰爭。在現在兩岸兵兇戰偽的時候,這麼緊張的時候,老實講,有人願意去大陸跟大陸談,而且是這麼高度的高度的前總統。他是以前總統的高度去跟大陸談。"},{"start":6659.656,"end":6680.577,"text":"他當然是一個文化之旅、教育之旅、技術之旅,但是也是一個和平對話之旅。他替台灣人民,老實講這件事情做出來,如果真的能夠促進第二次的馬戲會,如果能夠做到"},{"start":6682.375,"end":6696.114,"text":"大陸不否認我們的自權我們也不否認他的自權兩岸互不否認自權那就是很大突破這個東西你要很感謝他喔"},{"start":6697.301,"end":6721.813,"text":"但是上次到大陸去的時候他到大陸去的時候在中國方面的官方一向不承認他是中華民國的總統雖然他自己說是啦對所以我想對我們一定要在兩岸的健康有序的這個交流上做不斷的努力那有任何這方面的努力我們當然如果有二次馬戲會你樂見嗎?"},{"start":6724.107,"end":6740.941,"text":"我想這是一個假設性的問題沒有辦法回答機率很高喔機率非常高喔就我掌握的信息機率非常高喔你的看法怎麼樣酸酸的還是happy的還是沒有表情"},{"start":6741.721,"end":6765.691,"text":"我希望如果有這樣的一個機會的話萬一有這樣的一個機會的話他能夠在習先生的面前來主張臺灣是一個主權獨立的國家而且來捍衛臺灣的自由民主主權問題你要扯主權問題他在去年的時候已經講得很清楚啦根據憲法來處理主權啦主權問題的話所以他應該講清楚老實講太平島現在來講"},{"start":6769.913,"end":6769.933,"text":"低調嗎?"},{"start":6799.636,"end":6803.806,"text":"總統不敢去啊!這麼好的機會總統不敢去!宣揚主權這時候該去啊!"},{"start":6806.189,"end":6833.481,"text":"大家都很清楚蔡英文總統不去就是因為美國的壓力美國2016年也給馬英九總統很大的壓力叫他不要去馬英九總統去了馬英九頂得住美國的壓力蔡英文頂不住美國的壓力這個東西就很清楚看得到你在這裡講主權主權真的喊我主權又不敢那裡佔你密布喔不要去喔不一樣喔"},{"start":6834.736,"end":6856.45,"text":"如果這樣說,萬一兩岸打仗起來了,你人在國外了,台灣危險了,現在打仗了,我不要回來。我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?沒有,我不要你回答,你先不要回答。我就告訴你,不要去講這個東西,給人家看,說給人家看。"},{"start":6857.915,"end":6877.876,"text":"原來綠營的人,多少人圍剿馬英九,所以說大陸去敢講中華民國嗎?馬英九講給你聽,中華民國,馬英九講給你聽,中華民國總統,馬英九講給你聽,中華民國一輩一十二年。蔡英文勒,太平島的世界,他就是chicken,不下去啊,頂不住美國的壓力,來!"},{"start":6880.639,"end":6905.746,"text":"因為這個時間你都扯不完了,我扯,因為我時間有限了。第二題我跟你講,那個勞動節你上一次回答委員的一個提問,請那個部長可以起來。是不是確定今年五一勞動節所有的人都可以封假?所有的工作人員都可以封假?確定了嗎?你要我回答嗎?你剛才都一直不給我回答,所以...現在可以回答了,現在給我,請。"},{"start":6908.414,"end":6935.493,"text":"我覺得委員如果問這個時候呢該給我回答的機會沒有我是覺得對我相當的不公平尤其是太平島本來就是中華民國的領土所以除非你否定太平島是不是中華民國國土要不的話你為什麼要去做任何的demonstration呢所以這完全不必要我不認同你的看法好五一勞動節這個放假的事情"},{"start":6939.436,"end":6962.913,"text":"五一勞動節放假的情形我們已經跟跨部會有開過會議那現在呢在跟民間跟企業的團體來做相關的溝通我們也希望能夠盡早的來做一個結論今年五月一號有希望全國放假一天嗎還在溝通當中我們當然是往放假方向走吧對不對我們在溝通看看各界的想法因為這裡面很高興啊"},{"start":6965.3,"end":6967.721,"text":"哪一些團體還在溝通?"},{"start":6989.436,"end":6994.258,"text":"我們郭通有成果會跟各位來做報告。當然是一定是在最近的時間內。差不多"},{"start":7019.749,"end":7042.549,"text":"老阿寶年金改革你還記得有一個人知名度很高的人跟你談過老阿寶的年金改革那個人叫做沈富雄還記得嗎?嗯記得在總統府2017年在總統府那時候外面的人在抗議這是他親口跟我講的你們兩個在那裡談老阿寶年金沈富雄說"},{"start":7044.127,"end":7060.21,"text":"年金改革的罩門在勞保院長曾跟他說就是沈副總勞保也要一起改革這是你講的嗎?對沒有錯你講的齁來結果勞保年金到現在完全沒有改"},{"start":7061.946,"end":7078.261,"text":"前災復燥超過12兆,有人講18兆,有人講16兆。昨天我在問委員會請教我們的許部長,你親口講的,說到現在為止政府補貼勞保,怕他破產,補貼了超過2600億,對吧?"},{"start":7082.502,"end":7110.159,"text":"對的齁所以讓他不要去倒因為一般估算如果沒有這樣補貼2028你就要倒所以院長你跟我們講的說年紀沒有改的話就沒有辦法領得到啊什麼之類老婆你沒有改啊你有政府不斷的補貼然後對公教人員來講的話你是完全不同的一個標準"},{"start":7113.338,"end":7140.911,"text":"公教人員到現在你知不知道公教人員年金改革下來到現在已經第7年了所得替代率一直降低一直降低要從75%降到60%一直降低一直降低已經快沒有辦法生活了結果人家有些委員提出來是不是可以stop you啊你還講紅蓮話啊這不行啊這不行啊等等你知不知道公教人員軍公教了齁年金砍下來一年省多少錢"},{"start":7142.125,"end":7169.001,"text":"到現在為止我可以回答了嗎?當時在軍公教的年金改革你回答我問題就好了一年可以省多少錢?現在在年金改革的這個過程當中就是把要省下來的錢放入基金到現在為止大概省下了兩千億所以我們現在確實兩千億六到七年的時間一年就是三百億左右一年省三百億"},{"start":7170.041,"end":7190.029,"text":"一年省300億其實不是說要怎麼樣怎麼樣但是這樣才可以領得長長久久領到老啊世世代代領得到啊對於現職的跟已經退休的人是合理的啊現在造成是公務人員不願意退休"},{"start":7196.962,"end":7216.508,"text":"我們謝謝他們願意留下來繼續服務在我們這一些公務人員都是很有經驗而且對國家都很認真的效忠他們願意留下來多做幾年我們感謝他實在是給他最高的敬意我們這樣好的公務人員應該讓他繼續努力"},{"start":7220.809,"end":7223.032,"text":"老闆你想要改,你現在為止原地談不到,"},{"start":7225.729,"end":7228.07,"text":"議長可以了齁因為我時間已經快到了齁"},{"start":7254.855,"end":7282.397,"text":"我這個話題要幫你打住我就是告訴你很簡單你們的myself你們的mentality就是因為你們認為民進黨政府認為軍公教大部分不是他的票錯誤我們感謝所有軍公教人員對國家的服務然後給他最高的歇意跟敬意來最後一題我們請衛生部長也上來齁那個許部長可以下去了"},{"start":7285.148,"end":7309.754,"text":"有人跟我檢舉聽好兩位長官我們現在啊自由貿易港區裡面一堆電子煙一堆加熱煙都在那裡進來了有人跟我檢舉啊我數字一看嚇一跳電子煙在台北關自貿區裡面有1826px加熱煙有6155px"},{"start":7315.154,"end":7344.242,"text":"前置加熱菸的零組件將近26.4萬個set簡單來講就加熱菸有27萬多這麼多的加熱菸這兩個請問衛福部長我想他比較熟了我就我不要為難院長我就請教部長他是不是禁止進來是不是?目前是是那是不是為禁閉?"},{"start":7346.579,"end":7371.271,"text":"我是不太清楚我們自貿區條例所定的違禁品的定義。你告訴我,對不對?自由貿易港區條例第15條違禁品不可以進自貿區。你知道這裡有多少嗎?院長你看喔!全國反聯團體都在看喔!三億根的相應的量在自由貿易港區裡面。"},{"start":7373.049,"end":7402.308,"text":"放了已經超過一年啦放在那裡啊幹什麼準備以後你可以了就進來臺灣或者出去你說轉移一下外國去但是明明白白違反了自由貿易港區第15條韋晉平不可以進來剛才部長講得很清楚喔韋晉平請你去查一下為什麼可以進來可不可以院長拜託你因為我問了衛福部"},{"start":7403.482,"end":7403.902,"text":"司法部部長"},{"start":7443.652,"end":7452.7,"text":"謝謝賴委員、世保的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,現在我們休息5分鐘。休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":7780.343,"end":7804.611,"text":"拜託院會,現在繼續開會。接下來我們請劉委員建國質詢。謝謝主席,有請院長還有衛福部學部長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢衛福部。劉委員,午安。議員,午安。謝謝。今年最後一百日,這議會跟你"},{"start":7806.448,"end":7806.468,"text":"拜訪國會議員"},{"start":7827.621,"end":7851.208,"text":"絕對是對於護國利民是一個非常攸關重要的事情那我今天因為時間真的很有限是5分鐘所以針對幾個面向要特別跟院長跟部長來做一個提醒跟討論那第一個當然就長照基金那台灣邁入超高零明年就到我個人看可能是今年年底明年初就要到了因為在七年前曾經講是2026三年前就講說再提早一年"},{"start":7851.852,"end":7876.194,"text":"我覺得還會再提更早一點點,這是我個人的淺見。那事實上台灣的22個縣市現在已經有6個縣市,早就進到超高齡社會。有嘉義、台北、南投、基隆、屏東,還有我的母縣雲林,已經代表的已經佔了四分之一的縣市。所以我覺得速度真的會越來越快。而且人口結構的快速改變基本上"},{"start":7876.986,"end":7899.017,"text":"所有的面相通通會變這個我在這邊也講了不下N次以上從經濟、教育、文化、產業等等等所以我們看到蔡政府執政之後也要回歸回推到馬政府的時候對長照的預算當時是平均是不足每年50億啦我們都講50億啦其實真的是不足啦不足一路一直到今年已經達到800多億"},{"start":7900.82,"end":7908.344,"text":"這是非常恐怖的一個成長。那部長、院長看這張圖就是說,這是我們為何不得106到115年的10年的長照推估表。當時是110年的支出,我們推估是396.36億。那實際上決算是來到454。那你看相差就17.9億。111年"},{"start":7925.299,"end":7953.62,"text":"415億的推估決算是559億又相差143億112年是428那決算是628相差了251億這三年幾乎是百分之一百兩百在成長我覺得這事情我不曉得我們的因應知道在什麼地方那113年當然我們現在的預算是抓828實際上最後的執行是多少還不知道但是推估是436如果照預算去算"},{"start":7954.246,"end":7966.413,"text":"又誤差了300多億,將近400億。這個推估表是不是要更正了?這是第一點。第二點,徐部長曾經對我講說,長照基金剩餘將近1000多億,主要是黃帝合一、菸稅遺產遺證還有所得稅,認為5年內長照基金的裁員是沒有問題。這是部長講的。真的有這麼樂觀嗎?我要簡單講一些背景資料,再給院長跟部長做答覆。"},{"start":7982.711,"end":7989.618,"text":"內政部在110年的12月統計那65歲的失智人口是30.8萬那國安會預估120年等於不到10年時間失智人口會達到46萬百分之50的成長所以未來這個面向照顧會更多我們的總總統賴清德特別提出長照3.0"},{"start":8002.438,"end":8027.183,"text":"那其中又針對住宿式的服務機構使用者補助方案從整個預算規模要從78億調高到118億就再增加40億還有要強化重度失能者的照顧新增居家或社區的晚間倒載照顧然後建立24小時的重度失能者支持服務這可能又要需要幾十億的預算的規模對不對而且我們長照幾支戶7年"},{"start":8029.326,"end":8031.387,"text":"這幾個面向我想從要進到實質上進到3.0可能明年我們的長照預算就會破千億。"},{"start":8046.854,"end":8070.579,"text":"一定會破千例。那院長跟部長再看一下嘛從過去長照基金的收入來源110億是700多億但是111到12它確實有高達將近900多億但是如果以我們的長照基金來源的預估就是推估表113如果是776.6億那今年實際上執行數是828的話那這均相差了50幾億以此類推114"},{"start":8072.915,"end":8073.315,"text":"因為我們的收入的預算"},{"start":8097.329,"end":8103.618,"text":"我們的支出的預算是根據收入的預算來。那收入的預算是由財政部這邊給的資料。"},{"start":8105.44,"end":8126.938,"text":"財政部在這個因為有一些像說房地利合一稅等等遺產稅這些因為他是比較不確定的所以通常會比較低估所以在年度結算的時候我們的收入通常比原來收入的預算高很多所以目前來講的話已經累計到1500億的這個基金的結餘在那個地方"},{"start":8132.877,"end":8161.892,"text":"所以我第二張表格對不起我抄一下第二張表格你可以看嘛你的結語是1120的時候是1072嘛對不對我還是照部長所講的金額去算沒有去年後來整個的結語算起來的話total現在已經差不多一千五一千五百億對所以收入有比原來的預算多很多如果成為部長所答覆的這樣院長你可以看到我們長照基金的支出推估表"},{"start":8162.552,"end":8176.331,"text":"跟財源收入表,坦白講這兩張表是假的,差太多了。我們的支出的預算只能根據那個收入的預算來支付。這就是含我們的,因為我們收入的部分,包括證預稅、菸稅還有黃地合一稅,那是浮動的。"},{"start":8179.816,"end":8186.099,"text":"一般政府說收入時,財政部都比較保守,就是說會說比較多,實際上會比較多。我們的支出,我們跟委員報告說,通常我們是量入為出的風險來進行我們的長照。但是你說的居住型長照等等,這長照3.0,清德總統未來要推動的,這個我們"},{"start":8208.769,"end":8209.79,"text":"但是坦白講這些稅"},{"start":8237.113,"end":8247.27,"text":"我們專家學者看待裡面他是認為是交機會稅的。所以以穩定性尤其這個房地合一的稅一直在打黃"},{"start":8248.472,"end":8272.72,"text":"這兩年可以比較高,明年後年、大後年它或許就會急劇下降也不一定。所以這個我是希望可能要有相關的一些應變的一些措施的。因為我們希望過去打出長照就是找到、看得到、找得到、用得到。我們現在更要顧得好嘛對不對。那顧得好才從2.0要變成3.0。那相關的預算增加那實際上你的來源收入穩定。"},{"start":8273.38,"end":8278.804,"text":"就是我們投入到這個資源部件的成本,這些的話會減少。差不多都有了。是啦是啦,就是這樣,一定也沒辦法在第一時間內"},{"start":8297.416,"end":8299.477,"text":"我也是第一個在本院提出這個修法的委員那時候當時是"},{"start":8324.228,"end":8340.995,"text":"院長跟部長都有打呼我,一步一步來啦,這個我當然可以接受,但是現在已經3月了,今年已經3月了。我知道這個衛福部今年有成立的健康政策與醫療科技的評估中心,這個要肯定啦,因為協助健保進行新醫療技術藥品醫材幾戶的審定,"},{"start":8343.925,"end":8367.485,"text":"但是跟賴副總總統要建制的一個獨立的百億癌症心療基金這顯然落差很大因為我們的目標就是國家的防癌癌症的防治計畫目標是在2031年讓臺灣的癌症死亡人數可以減少到三分之一要達到這個目標很多的面向必須要處理的但是這個心療的百億基金我覺得是重中之重"},{"start":8368.386,"end":8384.181,"text":"跟委員報告目前的做法是在健保的總額之內總額預算之內的話那我們利用這個公務預算補助的像說去年240億今年200億那今年的200億裡面我們就安了差不多60億"},{"start":8386.863,"end":8401.606,"text":"那其中24億左右是在做這個暫時性支付,那其他有三十幾億是在做這個新藥的納入。所以現在嚴格來講有60億的這個癌症新藥的錢,就今年。"},{"start":8409.168,"end":8427.749,"text":"明年的話我們會爭取看看是不是能夠有繼續有公務預算可以進來。院長當時跟部長談我是要從制度面一步一步來,對不對?那我覺得這個制度面是不是可以在院長部長在短時間內可以趕快去確定,不然你明年還是要"},{"start":8428.717,"end":8429.638,"text":"這是這個基金到底什麼時候可以成立?"},{"start":8448.316,"end":8464.877,"text":"我們目前就是先用這種方式來處理因為這樣子的方式跟健保才能夠比較能夠掛鉤因為跟委員報告新藥基金並不是所有的新藥就通通一直給下去"},{"start":8465.598,"end":8488.745,"text":"他是有一個過渡期的,那從暫時性支付到納入到健保裡面,變成常規性的給付,然後再過來就應該移到總額去。所以他是一個階段一個階段的。不然的話,一百億老實講,動不動腦,要這個癌症的藥品就不夠人了。這是暫時性支付為主啦。不,對你說的我了解啦,但是"},{"start":8491.306,"end":8493.111,"text":"你現在用這個方式當然是應付這段時間,甚至是"},{"start":8500.93,"end":8524.021,"text":"我比較粗魯啦,你回答誰比較方便就對了啦,我不知道意思。但是要建立這個制度,這回答是議會沒對你,議會給我回答了。阿現在你尊崇東會政協來的記憶箱,現在健康台灣的論壇已經啟動了嘛,這也是成為他重要的一個政見之一吧,要成為政策。所以為現在團隊打下好的基礎,還是要靠兩位吧。"},{"start":8524.821,"end":8550.49,"text":"所以機制上面的話那如果用健保這樣的機制的話是可行的但是就是怎麼樣確保他的來源財源啦他的財源是穩定的這個才是是不是一個院內可以給我一個比較未來的去正確的一個方向跟處理的方式還有這個目標要如何去達成的一個報告好不好謝謝謝謝院長部長再來就是也是去年10月在這邊討論的不理人慮荒這是院長任內跟部長"},{"start":8554.4,"end":8578.747,"text":"非常重視也非常絞盡腦汁的事情。但是我在這邊特別提到就是要搞在中國啦,不是大夜班小夜班的問題啦,也不是搞成到區議院跟醫學中心這批時間在這樣對抗。還好,因為八月之前的一個抗爭處理得宜嘛,可接受的一個方案大家沒有走上街頭。但是其實當時我們特別有提到就是針對所謂的"},{"start":8581.799,"end":8591.03,"text":"這個韓日班的不分這個急慢線的病床還有急診的這個應該也要與病去思考我們對大小月班有獎勵為什麼對這些就沒有獎勵這好像在分階級不對啦"},{"start":8597.145,"end":8615.672,"text":"各位委員報告,我們目前正在規劃這一塊,這已經開始在做討論了,我們內部先做討論,先把一個草案弄出來,然後再跟這一些醫界或者其他各界來做討論。這草案什麼時候會出來?應該是在上半年會有一個草案出來。"},{"start":8616.432,"end":8621.156,"text":"最後一件事情就是偏鄉醫療,這個剩下一分鐘而已,院長跟部長可以看"},{"start":8646.581,"end":8647.021,"text":"檢察院在110年8月18日調查報告"},{"start":8658.143,"end":8681.442,"text":"只我的這個雲林的口腔有牙醫診所。同時報告中雲林縣的部分鄉鎮僅有一家牙醫診所,也要求衛生部跟雲林縣政府必須檢討。不僅雲林如此,112年10月底前全台的牙醫醫療的資源不足鄉鎮還有153個。然後再來我們看到弱勢還有身障朋友可能需要倒載的這個牙醫的口腔照護或診治"},{"start":8682.921,"end":8707.331,"text":"全國有1萬6千個牙醫師,只有160位投入這個到載。所以我是覺得優化這個偏鄉的醫療第一期已經結束,到第二期什麼時候?院長可不可以在這邊做具體的承諾?這一個案子,也就是我們的優化偏鄉醫療的計畫第二期已經在..."},{"start":8720.279,"end":8725.142,"text":"謝謝劉委員建國的謝謝劉委員建國的質詢也謝謝陳院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第6位吳委員春辰質詢謝謝"},{"start":8749.993,"end":8754.578,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請院長還有勞動部徐部長再請徐院長勞動部備詢吳委員長"},{"start":8764.215,"end":8790.535,"text":"院長好,院長你辛苦了。今天看你更有笑容。今天是最後一場的總質詢。很高興能夠接受委員質詢。那也是最重要的一場。希望你能夠以大格局、大胸懷助台灣最後一臂之力。好不好?好,我要努力。"},{"start":8793.38,"end":8816.688,"text":"1970年台灣65歲上的人佔2.9%那平均餘命平均壽命60幾歲然後60以後的人生叫做餘生就是隨便晃著晃著就掛掉了那就在這樣的一個前提下定立的叫做引法論述我們的引法官"},{"start":8818.128,"end":8840.976,"text":"現在我們邁向的2040年65歲上來的人要佔人口的30.1%10倍平均壽命80幾歲那60退休以後還有很多人會有30年這叫做第三人生那這就是我所建構的叫壯世代的主張"},{"start":8842.537,"end":8870.684,"text":"但是我們現在還繼續在採用舊的思維來應付面相的影響。如果這不改變,未來台灣會躺成一片。高齡者成為臥床族,我們現在臥床超過8年。還有這個少子化造成大量的躺平族。這是一個系統性的問題,但是我們現在都用枝枝節節的方式在捕破洞。"},{"start":8871.994,"end":8898.156,"text":"我們用2.9%的銀髮政策在處理30%的壯世代長壽社會的來臨。所以我們現在的社福預算已經達到了8千億。難道非要破萬億不行嗎?這個看起來只是可帶。請問院長,20年後,臺灣一半的人口都要超過60歲。"},{"start":8900.051,"end":8900.071,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":8909.205,"end":8935.332,"text":"你也是專門專家我想委員對於這個我們少子化的問題很重視而且分析得很透徹你剛才的分析就很棒那我想未來怎麼樣讓這個壯世代能夠有自立自足而且共榮永續然後對社會有繼續有貢獻我想這是很重要的而且不只是台灣這是全球的問題"},{"start":8936.932,"end":8965.045,"text":"但是台灣是全世界最嚴重的,跟南韓。我們在2055年會超越日本,成為全世界比日本還老的國家。後面還有很多要問院長。在我跟各部會最近大概都有溝通,我發現每一個部會的政策都在歧視高齡者,但是他們都無可奈何。"},{"start":8967.385,"end":8976.099,"text":"眾口都指向衛福部的引法思維。好像這沒辦法啊,這東西上面交代,上面的我不曉得上面是誰,上面是院長你嗎?"},{"start":8977.282,"end":9001.236,"text":"不是我啦。也不是你,然後人是蔡總統嗎?確實像委員講的這一些,有一些法規上我們確實是把...這是一個系統性的問題。對。所以呢,這個院長,這個台灣進入長壽社會,那我也看出來,我們整個請全力都在打造60歲以前的人生,這個社會非常的繁榮。但是你只要推開60歲這扇大門一看,"},{"start":9004.318,"end":9005.779,"text":"當然政府應該要一起努力,還有跟企業界"},{"start":9034.762,"end":9051.073,"text":"政府的責任但是感謝院長在3月19日的時候我在財政的總時訊當中院長也承諾了建立壯世代金融行動方案而且要求上市櫃公司"},{"start":9053.014,"end":9066.553,"text":"提出高齡社會的永續報告希望這個會追蹤落實同時陳院長在那時候我有問你對於2023年行政院提出的超高齡社會對策"},{"start":9069.362,"end":9097.661,"text":"請問院長你這些有哪一些是你所需求的?我想可能我們現在考慮到60歲以上的壯世代實際上他能夠不管是在社會參與在產業的參與或者是在健康生活上都能夠越來越健康然後越來越有活力所以很多的長照政策實際上也要注意到健康者"},{"start":9099.142,"end":9118.481,"text":"現在2023年看起來大家都還是圍繞在這幾個項目嘛這個醫療、養生、照顧的這些層面但是不可能30年整天在搞這個啦他要有完整的第三人生所以呢為這個長壽時代來臨我們社會普遍歧視老人"},{"start":9119.335,"end":9136.864,"text":"所以你用大數據輸入老人、銀髮、勒領這些稱呼依附過來都是負面的字眼所以他已經是一個被高度汙名化的大家都很怕被跟老扯上關係我辦了很多活動他說你不要用銀髮、用勒領不然我就不要"},{"start":9137.464,"end":9150.402,"text":"我不要去參加了所以我們勞動部現在都要談壯世代所以這個是壯世代運動在去年我還是民間身份的時候就到立法院來倡議也獲得跨黨派"},{"start":9153.953,"end":9169.729,"text":"共同支持,這個沒有什麼黨派的觀念,這是整個全民社會的問題。但是我們現在的銀髮政策只重視安、勞、扶、弱。所以有800萬的壯世代,如何讓他壯起來這很重要。"},{"start":9170.47,"end":9198.072,"text":"那上次我把用這個資產的高低還有現金流的高低可以把這個壯士貸分成四大類型那上次呢我們在財政的委員會提出的是針對上面這兩個這個叫安穩型還有貢獻型的如何活化他們的資產那今天呢我要跟勞動部還有衛福部來請教如何針對活躍化還有這個社福的因應之道"},{"start":9199.432,"end":9215.287,"text":"首先要非常肯定勞動部最近非常積極地推出了55Plus壯世代就業促進措施還有5050壯世代就業網路的合作計畫積極地推動但是這個部長勞動部高舉壯世代的旗幟新價值讓壯世代稱為主流"},{"start":9224.922,"end":9239.547,"text":"請問許部長,你說比起中高二零你更喜歡壯世代這個稱呼,然後你覺得壯世代對號召再就業有什麼助益?有什麼幫助?我想壯世代可以讓整個這個"},{"start":9241.755,"end":9241.775,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":9267.778,"end":9267.798,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":9294.957,"end":9295.117,"text":"主席"},{"start":9316.092,"end":9336.548,"text":"那那個造成的狀態進退兩難有些人想要提早退休其實50歲退休也不錯不是一定要有些人想要延後退休有些人退休想要再回來但是我們的退休體制現在綁手綁腳很不方便那造成了很多特別是勞基法54條僱主的強制年滿65歲勞工退休"},{"start":9340.271,"end":9360.246,"text":"其實在這一個方面也值得來探討像日本高齡雇用安定法裡面現在已經通過工作要延長到70歲而且現在日本很多企業4成以上的企業都雇用75歲以上的人甚至YKK這一個內部的規定"},{"start":9363.729,"end":9364.549,"text":"所以最後這裡我想要跟院長跟勞動部提出請求"},{"start":9391.325,"end":9407.123,"text":"第一點是檢討僵化的退休體制,還給人民工作的自由權。第二個是獎勵壯士在重返職場,能夠落實全面的法治化。這一點請問院長跟許部長可不可以給我們這個"},{"start":9408.584,"end":9428.527,"text":"八百萬的創世代的承諾我想讓這個退休的體制更有彈性讓創世代能夠繼續工作做他喜歡的工作我覺得這個是我們應該要努力的然後這樣的話有一些法制上的東西確實要修正譬如說像剛才提到的日本他是鼓勵"},{"start":9429.188,"end":9429.208,"text":"謝謝院長"},{"start":9454.113,"end":9475.288,"text":"接下來我要請教衛福部薛部長,最近您辛苦了,一個單一的案件搞得全國舉國天翻地覆,你也說社安網有缺陷,請問部長我們的社福體系缺陷在哪裡?"},{"start":9479.303,"end":9489.359,"text":"應該是整個的社會體系的話大致上可能都有一些小的問題但是今天這個案子是一個收、出、養的個案"},{"start":9490.177,"end":9518.411,"text":"收出養的個案在這個過程當中,那的確從這個案子我們發現了一些比較重大的問題。這個不會是,那個只是一個表象,應該講的是一個系統性的問題,整個系統性的人口都出問題。2030年我們有一半人口要超過50歲,再10年,可以用現在的社福的政策來照顧一半的人口嗎?"},{"start":9520.017,"end":9546.263,"text":"當然這中間必須要經過調整因為不管是在人力的部分的話也會出現這個很大的落差這個是一個大災問的問題不過10年也迫在眼前了所以要加緊腳步另外請問薛部長你有沒有注意到民間的浪潮有時候公務房房要看看民間浪潮現在大家"},{"start":9548.442,"end":9564.601,"text":"大家都不喜歡戴上銀髮這頂帽子,你有發現嗎?我們餐廳飯店都不用這個字眼,但是我發現我們的政府政策,銀髮產業、銀髮老人科什麼東西都僵持不變。所以呢這個"},{"start":9566.302,"end":9567.083,"text":"最後我要請院長、行政院"},{"start":9592.387,"end":9620.84,"text":"還有衛福部部長是不是可以承諾兩點第一點是檢討長照政策不只是照顧更需要照料然後第二點是排除年齡歧視去除老人及淫法的稱呼可不可以這個請問一下部長第二個部分那個老人這件事情的話會有問題因為我們很多的法規都是"},{"start":9621.906,"end":9648.221,"text":"要用法律名詞已經變在那個地方。我知道,這個當然不是簡單的事情,但是你不做,這個影響層面太大了。這個影響的層面是整個的政府的當機,整個的我們未來一半人口無所適從。所以我最後的一頁我要來問一下部長,那個院長,明年進入超高齡社會,布局2025年,我覺得我們現在是遠遠不足了。"},{"start":9648.82,"end":9670.104,"text":"必須要重新制定內閣世代循環的白皮書這個每一個部會總統跟行政院長要勇於打破框架勞動部要釋放勞動力教育部要終身教育的體制經濟部要做世代融合經濟的循環衛福部要去除引髮思維的政策速發部要科技平權世代共享"},{"start":9695.795,"end":9697.516,"text":"接下來我們請登記第7號王委員事監質詢。"},{"start":9729.011,"end":9735.594,"text":"主席我請院長以及衛福部薛部長麻煩請陳院長衛福部備詢王偉無案院長無案部長無案謝謝主席"},{"start":9756.909,"end":9775.693,"text":"我們國家的醫療品質跟收費我如果用四個字來形容叫做價廉物美那麼價廉物美的醫療其實是建立在長時間以來我們醫護人員他們的犧牲"},{"start":9782.458,"end":9806.188,"text":"比方說護理人員大家很清楚他們工作繁重工作環境有待改善而且他們的收入不高加上在疫情期間種種這個危險加急那一下子給一下子要回這些對他們我覺得造成某種程度上人格的污衊所以你看"},{"start":9807.148,"end":9820.4,"text":"最近這一兩年我們護理人員大量的流失那這一年多來我們也因為護理人員流失我們醫病比"},{"start":9821.647,"end":9822.768,"text":"我今天特別要提到的是在基層醫療診所的部分"},{"start":9851.664,"end":9867.346,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":9867.586,"end":9867.606,"text":"結果﹖"},{"start":9892.335,"end":9911.169,"text":"他們要負擔這麼多的高成本之下,他們又沒有業外收入。大型醫院很多可以業外收入啊,有租金的收入,停車場收入,其他這個美食街啊,這個便利商店這些收入,他們沒有嘛。所以這樣的"},{"start":9913.325,"end":9940.606,"text":"情況下我舉去年為例好了去年基層醫療診所尤其我們台北區我們台北地區因為我們人口最稠密去年5、6月的時候COVID-19有一部分誤發的情況所以醫療的耗用增加那點子啊已經跌到0.9以下"},{"start":9941.445,"end":9963.748,"text":"那去年底又來一波流感那流感大家去的最多的當然直接就是去基層醫療診所這兩個因素之下臺北區的基層醫療點數甚至達到0.81啦所以院長部長我在這邊要求就是說是不是要撥補"},{"start":9966.323,"end":9967.584,"text":"那個部長院長你們看法呢?"},{"start":9986.975,"end":10009.743,"text":"有關於去年因為這個解封之後那把這個COVID-19相關的治療費用移到健保來所以會造成這個整個點子下降因為它的使用就增加了那這個部分的話我們已經有方案在做處理那第一季跟第二季"},{"start":10010.043,"end":10029.104,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10030.325,"end":10054.264,"text":"所以得要有醫療診所幫我們整體全國的醫療來降低整體我們小病看小醫院嘛大病看大醫院透過轉診這樣子我們醫療的支出才有辦法負荷所以去年的點子補到0.9是OK的那麼如果年年虧損失血的話我們失去了這些基層醫療診所"},{"start":10055.365,"end":10074.51,"text":"那我們全國的醫療將會崩潰,好不好?那表示,欸,院長,剛才部長講得很清楚,他知道有這個情況。對,而且,而且這個情況齁,就是他講得很好嘛,就是因為在去年還有COFI的幾戶本來以前都是用特別條例的錢嘛,那現在把它進入健保,"},{"start":10074.77,"end":10074.79,"text":"﹚廣告﹚"},{"start":10097.146,"end":10111.408,"text":"不能夠單單從點子就來講說我們給醫院的照顧是不好,我們要看看他這個點子下降的理由,如果是COVID...我就是說總額給付當然基於很多原因,道德風險的評估這都應當。"},{"start":10114.051,"end":10129.99,"text":"但是當我們在醫療的這一部分我們健保收入的部分開源節流之外我認為如果差額開300億500億對我們整體一年國家的支出兩兆9000億而言那不是什麼大錢嗎所以我們應該來撥補來幫助"},{"start":10133.354,"end":10135.655,"text":"主席我可不可以喝水?可以,那邊是你的"},{"start":10174.797,"end":10185.121,"text":"我再來要跟您就教幾項問題希望你能夠積極的伸出援手第一點就是社子島的開發社子島現在的產狀社子島的島民們已經委屈了70年之久"},{"start":10193.498,"end":10217.132,"text":"這個地方如果大家有去看的話那根本像個鬼島沒有衛生設施連個基本的診所都沒有那也沒有衛生下水道那到處都是這個違章工廠林立實在說實在話我們公共建設在那邊近乎零的公共建設"},{"start":10218.372,"end":10244.131,"text":"現在社址島的開發已經經過多次各方專家研議的結果市政府也已經早就簽到我們行政院來在內政部審查現在用的叫做生態社址島開發這能夠最符合環保人士也符合全體市民大家共同可以來使用這個水岸的城鎮最好的方式"},{"start":10245.112,"end":10253.333,"text":"那現在唯一在反對97.5%的島民都支持,絕大多數的市民也都支持。"},{"start":10254.52,"end":10275.413,"text":"少數及少數社址島的居民2.5%的居民他們反對的原因他們竟然是說開發會圖利他們當地的居民我覺得這是非常離譜的如果這叫做圖利的話院長那我們所有公共建設都不要做啦"},{"start":10276.614,"end":10302.889,"text":"過去開闢馬路那都圖立兩旁的地主囉那如果所有的開發都叫圖立過去70年政府都在圖立民間不是這樣嗎那既然圖立了70年的所有民間為什麼獨落社址島所以圖立兩個字這實在不能拿出來當藉口跟理由還有交通現在內政部在審的是說我們再來想想看是不是社址島要給個輕軌那個"},{"start":10306.49,"end":10320.496,"text":"院長,其實涉及到的交通在整個涉及到生態開發的計畫裡面都有啦。如果額外要做輕軌,那麼就是在政府區段徵收所謂的那六層土地裡面就有預留了嘛。"},{"start":10320.896,"end":10322.358,"text":"是不是你能夠直接下令指揮他們趕快進速審核通過好不好?好"},{"start":10339.135,"end":10360.99,"text":"在去年的11月30號的時候,臺北市政府還有公文給我們的內政部。那現在內政部還在跟臺北市政府做再進一步的溝通。那我會請內政部一定要加緊來辦理這件事情。社子島的居民值得我們大家跟他們一起努力,讓社子島盡早開發。我想對他們才是最好的幫忙。"},{"start":10362.551,"end":10376.369,"text":"還有我們台北市現在面臨的因為疫情的關係現在台北市正在推動的北環段、東環段、南環段的捷運遇到一個問題就是這三年來啊供料都大幅上漲"},{"start":10377.489,"end":10400.451,"text":"疫情的關係嗎?那供料大幅上漲的結果計算下來這三條線大概差額440億元。那麼440億元對台北市政府而言說實在話他們負擔不起。所以請院長是不是針對台北市東環、南環、北環這三線的捷運能夠補足這440億元的差額?"},{"start":10403.254,"end":10425.09,"text":"這個有關於這三個環線的這個經費因為物價上漲這個不可規則的這個理由而上漲的這個部分我們會按照中央跟地方應該要分攤的這個部分來一起分攤這個絕對沒有問題但是如果是可以規則於地方政府的部分"},{"start":10426.09,"end":10440.315,"text":"發言委員對當然當然7分之後那院長我希望除了那個比例以外是不是多補一點給臺北市好嗎臺北市身為首都他是各項全國"},{"start":10441.135,"end":10441.435,"text":"好不好?"},{"start":10468.188,"end":10468.208,"text":"院長"},{"start":10485.188,"end":10499.464,"text":"前幾年說實在話在這個補足各縣市預算當中臺北市確實分配到的比較少當然這也因為當時柯文哲市長他也疏於跟中央溝通爭取"},{"start":10500.692,"end":10526.013,"text":"只要有提出申請,我們就會認真來辦理。但是因為這個行政是地方政府要提出來,要計為它要提出來。還有一點就是我們臺北市議會現在所面臨到的,就是我們議會助理這個聘用都維持在過去那3萬元的薪資。那其實不只臺北市碰到,全國22縣市的縣市議會都碰到。"},{"start":10528.695,"end":10551.9,"text":"部分助理的薪資已經22年沒有調整了。那院長你知道22年來物價是如何的波動,生活費如何的上漲。所以3萬元這樣子的低薪實在話是有點不能到齁。所以這個部分是不是也請中央在法規條文上也幫忙,那在預算撥補上也能夠幫忙。"},{"start":10552.52,"end":10572.087,"text":"我們跟地方政府一起來討論,因為這錢要付出去是地方政府嘛齁,但是我們中央跟地方一起來討論,其實這個案子齁,很多議員,不是只有台北市議員而已,所以說所有的縣市我們會跟大家地方政府一起來討論,一個最好的方案,這已經有講很久了。"},{"start":10574.708,"end":10579.331,"text":"議長還有幾項就是最近最近大家一直在炒熱這個ETF光這個00940兩天就1700億院長過去0050"},{"start":10588.257,"end":10592.179,"text":"他們至少奮鬥21年現在才3000億的規模這個00940啊吸引油脂熱錢兩天就1780億院長我在講的是一種這個現象我認為這個名稱我們政府要看顧好"},{"start":10607.466,"end":10626.857,"text":"不能讓這些財團像元大社的這00940像先前去年還有中信00934群力00937所有他們這一些這個都用所謂的我念他的名字直接在名字上面叫做大收益"},{"start":10627.978,"end":10646.61,"text":"高谷錫 高錫棟能 喔 然後一大堆名詞 什麼神級的高谷錫 我一直都用這樣子的名詞來騙人 過去政府 欸 米粉啦 不是米做的 就要他叫炊粉 對小老百姓是這樣喔"},{"start":10647.233,"end":10666.658,"text":"那結果對這些自吹自擂的這個部分應該有所約束我們會請金管會來對於ETF的這一個事情做好強化他的那個審查的部分還有落實這一個評準金的這一個相關的揭露的部分還有廣告的部分這個我們會努力來做主席是不是時間暫停因為只剩11秒那個那個"},{"start":10677.472,"end":10701.328,"text":"院長這次是你在我們大院最後一天的備詢那其實我對你這一整年來的作為我很肯定就是說你在行政院的團隊你沒有拉幫結派沒有向特定的政治勢力低頭所以院長我在最後這11秒鐘我要送給陳院長"},{"start":10705.353,"end":10713.798,"text":"一份離別的禮物一本聖經一本聖經那外加四個字珍重再見"},{"start":10735.037,"end":10758.595,"text":"謝謝王委員事件的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。謝謝接下來我們請登記第8位李委員燕秀質詢謝謝韓院長。我可不可以請陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢"},{"start":10766.107,"end":10777.414,"text":"禮委員早午安院長午安我剛剛看到王委員送你珍重再見喔我要確認一下這一屆立委藉之任內這是我最後一次跟您質詢嗎是"},{"start":10779.881,"end":10784.306,"text":"我對於學術研究影響相當的最新那我現在也覺得離開學術界有一段時間我還是回去做我的學術研究對人類更有貢獻也說不定"},{"start":10796.838,"end":10825.429,"text":"謝謝院長我想反走過必留下痕跡說過的話做過的事情未來我希望也祝福你我們到不同的單位但是我相信所有做過的事情說過的話我想人民都在看我們就留給歷史來評價好謝謝院長院長三個星期我在院會的時候你提到說因為這一次電價漲的關係所以有其他委員提到說捷運臺北市的捷運是不是要有可以不要漲的空間"},{"start":10826.209,"end":10855.363,"text":"那你上個星期在特別提到說因為捷運費用是地方政府來做決定那特別是在北北基都有TPAS所以要漲價沒有正當性這個是上個星期五我關注你在院會回答的我沒有說錯嘛對不對對最主要的捷運的費率要不要調整是地方政府決定那TPAS他有這個我們有補助過所以要漲價沒有正當性這個是你講的嘛"},{"start":10856.478,"end":10868.326,"text":"對,我是以最主要的理由說這個正當性的理由是因為這一次的電價調整對於台電,對於北捷的這個經營的部分多了1%的成本的增加了。"},{"start":10868.916,"end":10894.686,"text":"好這個這個到底調整多少我我想地方政府到最後會有一個數字因為今年4月1號4月1號要漲齁因為以台北市來說他要負擔13%的電價整個台北市因為那事實上整個台北市政府捷運事實上他是虧損的狀態他28年沒有漲過任何的票價但是他虧損也達15億元今天早上我也特別關注到"},{"start":10896.086,"end":10921.132,"text":"市長也提到說大宗運輸工具可不可以電價不要調而且我相信所有有捷運的地方首長都希望在這一波電價不要調但是我也關注到在昨天在交委會部門的時候王國才部長也提到說馬上4月1號之後我們客運就要調漲不僅如此"},{"start":10923.163,"end":10926.999,"text":"下半年我們可能雙鐵、台鐵跟高鐵都要漲"},{"start":10928.697,"end":10933.22,"text":"市長,客運要漲,跟電費沒有關係,因為臺灣大部分的客運都是用燃油"},{"start":10959.017,"end":10972.741,"text":"下半年我們雙鐵台鐵跟高鐵也要漲那我就在想說那就是兩套標準啊地方的捷運我們認為不能漲但是我們的雙鐵卻要漲"},{"start":10975.181,"end":10989.716,"text":"院長我要提醒的是說大眾運輸工具他是綠色運輸我們都鼓勵民眾多搭但是如果我們不能中央跟地方共體時間人民對於這個通膨的"},{"start":10992.239,"end":11013.2,"text":"感受度會非常非常深刻不是每個人都有錢去玩股票大多數的民眾今天股票又在漲股票漲到兩萬點跟大多數台灣人沒有太多的關係這個漲幅未來是人民特別是領死薪水的民眾來說他是很痛苦因為買什麼都在漲"},{"start":11014.702,"end":11026.981,"text":"所以院長我們能不能有機會共體時間我們這些大眾運輸工具包括我們的雙鐵不要漲至少兩年不要漲委員我"},{"start":11027.608,"end":11047.214,"text":"我想台鐵之所以要漲價跟電費的增加一點都沒有關係最主要的話是台鐵最近成立了變成了這一個公司公司化然後台鐵是28年來為了要配合那高鐵呢高鐵呢高鐵他是一個我想"},{"start":11048.175,"end":11057.142,"text":"我只要提醒你,民眾看到的是一個結果,不管你說的理由是什麼,但是在民眾感受上,它就會是因為電價漲的原因。"},{"start":11068.551,"end":11087.571,"text":"所以,雖然我們鼓勵民眾多搭乘大眾運輸工具,但是我覺得在百工百業都醞釀要漲的狀況之下,我覺得要去思考,因為你到520之前您都是院長,我覺得這一波是不是要漲?"},{"start":11088.732,"end":11091.134,"text":"我可以答應你一件事情就是說這個TPAS的部分一定不會漲。"},{"start":11107.284,"end":11121.862,"text":"那T-PACE是臺灣喔,它一共有3億次的使用,然後它是大部分的通勤、通學甚至觀光…院長,但是我要提醒,變價一漲所有的成本都在漲,所以結業的變價也要漲。T-PACE不漲。"},{"start":11124.125,"end":11125.286,"text":"TPAS本來就包括了台鐵的運輸啊,對不對,您知道嗎?"},{"start":11149.576,"end":11153.31,"text":"有包括了捷運嘛,所以我們TPS不漲,TPS不會漲。"},{"start":11156.078,"end":11156.238,"text":"電價費率審議會一年開幾次?電價"},{"start":11182.916,"end":11207.527,"text":"電價審議委員會兩次齁兩次對那三月跟九月三月跟九月好那你知道在今年年底我們的臺電的虧損到達數字大概是多少嗎要看看政府有沒有撥補如果政府有撥補一千億的時候呢那他的虧損呢就可以減少虧損不管有沒有撥補就是他本身的虧損你知道數字嗎到目前為止他的虧損的話只會到五千多億嘛"},{"start":11209.36,"end":11218.183,"text":"我今天也關注到在媒體上你說這一次電價沒有漲到足沒有漲到足那9月份還有一次電價審議委員會還會再漲嗎?不會確定嗎?這是我個人的看法但是電價"},{"start":11230.216,"end":11249.463,"text":"在臺灣的電價的調整就是3月9月就是要開電價審議委員會那我們會有電價審議委員會還是要開但是會不會漲這個就是電價審議委員會來看但是我個人的估算因為我們去年還有前年我們每年都只漲一次"},{"start":11251.311,"end":11274.705,"text":"那院長你也知道這一次漲了很多百公百業大家那個物價通膨的感受度是很痛的有沒有可能三年不漲這個我沒有辦法幫這個電價審議委員會去做答案啦兩年還是一年不漲這個不符合機制嘛這個機制就是由電價審議會來決定電價"},{"start":11278.496,"end":11301.272,"text":"委員長,我的感受,這幾天民眾所感受到的,百公百業好像都要漲,昨天從媒體上看到臭豆腐,臭豆腐一盤也要漲到一百塊了。所以我覺得是這樣,王美花昨天講說我要去看看有沒有誰隨便亂漲,其實這個機制它能夠有多少的掌控度,其實我有很多的問號,但是我覺得我們手邊有很多的工具。"},{"start":11302.045,"end":11326.329,"text":"包括物價的稽查小組我覺得要立刻去啟動這個我覺得也是需要去關注但是昨天有人講說所有成本都在漲叫我不要漲叫我關門嗎所以我覺得漲幅的幅度這一次是非常大人民感受是非常深的所以這個也是我覺得在後續勞工是活的生活的非常辛苦"},{"start":11326.849,"end":11344.406,"text":"在過去8年蔡英文執政任內,貧富差距是越來越大,我們7年的總薪資是倒退的。院長,經濟成長率好,但是大家看到的數字,人民感受上是不一樣的。我說貧富差距,我們的貧富差距不是你想的這樣。"},{"start":11345.796,"end":11368.67,"text":"院長,院長你我領卸任之後你去你有機會多到基層走一走你就知道臨時薪水的感受度是怎麼樣你前幾天上一次你問柯子仁說上兩萬點你高不高興但一天我問處紀長說身為國家大長官我很高興稅收多但是我不高興因為我沒玩股票院長我要提醒你臺灣大多數的人"},{"start":11369.771,"end":11371.092,"text":"我講一下物價的部分好不好?"},{"start":11392.981,"end":11421.877,"text":"務價的部分吼,電費影響的部分不多啦。大部分的主要呢,我們現在物價影響比較大的像是燃油、燃氣、燃煤。院長,院長我知道你要講什麼。國際燃料的物價其實已經調整回來。但是院長,我今天我就是要提醒你,我臨之後拜託你到七層走一走,你就會看到百工百業都在漲,它也不得不漲的狀態,但是人民卻過得非常的辛苦。"},{"start":11422.097,"end":11449.91,"text":"沒關係我以後你有更多的時間你去貼近人民你就知道我們在講的事我一向很貼近人民好謝謝院長我接下來還是要問你因為你過去是衛生署的署長所以你也擔任過所以你一定知道醫院的困境是什麼在這一次漲幅當中過去我們三年電價平均漲幅從111年是8.411%到今年的11%總共三年加總我們是漲幅了33成左右"},{"start":11450.49,"end":11470.102,"text":"在醫療院所實際的電價111年它是15%、112年是7%、113年是14%它三年加總起來它達到46%所以它不可能是王美花所講的說有一些產業啊如果你減少用電啊我們可以調幅減半"},{"start":11471.38,"end":11487.741,"text":"你非常清楚醫療院所他不太可能店家來審因為所有醫療的器材冷氣感染間的那個濕度溫度控管都必須是長時間這樣子的運作我想你非常清楚"},{"start":11488.582,"end":11503.51,"text":"所以這一塊我最近就聽到包括我們這一次在醫療院所我們的那個國發會核定的醫療服務成本的總額裡面我們也定了就是在這一次的漲幅只能有3.075%那如果我們電價再漲"},{"start":11509.684,"end":11536.077,"text":"有辦法在總額負擔裡面有辦法承受這些電價嗎這個是我第一個我要提的問題你了解我因為成本就是這麼多它總額就只能成長3%左右裡面又含了人事費用又含了醫材、藥品的費用那電價也包含在裡面所以我實在不認為醫療院所能夠承擔那麼多的電價的調整幅度這個是第一個我的問題"},{"start":11537.762,"end":11565.965,"text":"那對於你第一個問題呢你這個46%是對的但是有一個很重要的重點就是電費是佔它營運成本的百分之多少那我跟委員報告在醫學中心這些大型醫院佔它營運成本的0.5到1%那在地區醫院這小型醫院是佔2到3%所以你看看46%乘上0.5到1%它增加的幅度是多少"},{"start":11566.625,"end":11594.038,"text":"院長,我要提的就是說,整個電價漲,藥品可能也會漲,醫療成本也在漲,因為我們現在人事費用,我們也希望調整,但是他就是一個大賊。你是要把所有的東西都要講進來,講醫療院所的這個成本,那當然可以啊。所以院長我才提醒你啊,我善意的提醒啊,電價在漲,因為他就是,因為"},{"start":11594.959,"end":11595.741,"text":"但是他占0.5%啊"},{"start":11603.879,"end":11627.274,"text":"但是院長我要提醒裡面含電價、藥品、醫療人士費用、醫材都包含在裡面我們這一次我們核定醫療服務成本我們只有讓他漲3.075%所以院長我要提醒因為我時間剩下的不多我們現在因為上個星期我知道醫療團體也上來跟行政院來陳情跟衛福部陳情那現在我們問衛福部或院長你的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":11627.995,"end":11629.276,"text":"對於電價的漲幅我們用什麼樣的機制去處理?對於醫療院所?有沒有可能補貼?"},{"start":11647.912,"end":11648.272,"text":"謝謝李委員延續質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。"},{"start":11677.506,"end":11680.787,"text":"接下來,我們請登記第9位,謝委員龍介質詢。喂喂"},{"start":11706.713,"end":11716.279,"text":"我請陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢我看你這樣啊,剛才民進黨的委員在問你,你都出錯話了"},{"start":11726.104,"end":11733.407,"text":"我對你也很感激,沒有啦,我們說得有道理,我當然很感激我同意,我同意你做人的勞配都做得過,你問什麼,你外行不要啊,我感覺你這樣"},{"start":11747.791,"end":11755.292,"text":"民進黨在說的話,我聽到他說的話也文不對底,你就說我幾個例子給你聽。我講外行人生是在學生嘛,他是代表人民來啊,台灣兩千三百萬人,專業也沒有很多啊。你這麼專業也沒有幾個。所以我對你的尊敬是這樣啊。來行,我講來行惡劣很多。"},{"start":11777.165,"end":11778.085,"text":"因為你都自己聽得懂嘛!"},{"start":11805.456,"end":11831.111,"text":"對我我同意我會聽受年輕人來到這你尊重像我我如果說不對你就可以不用聽受我沒有沒有我沒有要聽受你可以直接把我弄亂了好想聽受啦好想聽受我算是比高峰人生的經驗比較沒有感嘛所以起來在跟你問就說我請問你你覺得有在吃胖嗎你愛吃胖嗎胖你麵包嘛對對對有啊我有吃胖對嗎對我有吃胖"},{"start":11833.729,"end":11851.772,"text":"阿想你沒對阿,阿那做胖的齁,那一個位齁胖點齁,一個位吃電沒超過千百多,他也很過行,他也很過行啦,對不對,烘焙的倒一下現在,沒吃電吃很胖啦,想你講的阿,阿電衣,他的電錢,他的身份差不多0.5%,這是正確的喔。"},{"start":11863.22,"end":11884.254,"text":"但是這個電池了喔,原來你的補充在三月才說,啊這個...掛合費齁,現在開始就不用想過去的約束啦,變成租行調整。不是租行調...不用...租行調整啦,變成啦。不用同...不用報備啦。剩下的錢不然我們不用再報備嘛。對,不用報備啦。這樣意思,你差不多就想說,準備要蓋電池啦。啊這兩天沒拍,你總要對掛合費去調整就好。"},{"start":11891.712,"end":11908.277,"text":"沒這個意思,這段條件我後面很久喔。他之前的發言就有說到包括這個身份嘛,醫療身份來的。所以主席去調整,我不是要跟你說對跟不對啦,因為事實起底就是大家都感受到。"},{"start":11910.136,"end":11938.081,"text":"臨環政策已經過程恢復,所以執行,恢復臨就是大家要去面對嘛。但是面對,你是做國的行政首長啊,你就有義務把這個臨民瞬間的痛苦,給他感激嘛。這跟做治療一樣嘛。啊你想想,一般的農村來,一般農村來我講,基站就站不住嘛。這是必然的啦,但是沒去,第一天要做啊。"},{"start":11939.1,"end":11960.521,"text":"政府也是要面對其他的問題,也是很嚴重啊。所以是不是要恢復到,啊大家不然我們來講,恢復到另外一個政策,你不敢講,啊不然這個婦人繼續要延期啊。你不敢形容。婦人吼,要延期吼,阿不一定是比較生疾。阿不,我告訴你,這人都專家,人也有來行的,都研究過啊。"},{"start":11963.644,"end":11966.472,"text":"在土地可以安全的經營下,延續二十年。"},{"start":11972.185,"end":11988.133,"text":"在安全的情形下,你說不比較省錢,我告訴你,就絕對比你的太陽鏈還省。比你的小家屬還省。我告訴你保證。你核廠的廚藝的錢是很貴的喔。我知道啦。你核廢料的處理咧?你核廢料不是說…在那個廚藝疫情…讓我們子子孫孫去負擔嗎?"},{"start":11994.656,"end":12004.745,"text":"您想要說科學啊,科學就是過去婦人庇療到今天40年前的婦人庇療,到今天婦人庇療科學所面對的,已經不一樣了嘛。甚至未來的10年來,這婦人庇療的再利用都可以在科學安全的監督之下遞到再利用。"},{"start":12019.918,"end":12027.58,"text":"所以我今天不是要跟你討論婦女的情緒﹖這我沒同意﹖這不是客戶﹖我告訴你喔﹖這個﹖電池開了會應用很多﹖醫療﹖因為福利單位不用開嘛﹖學校不用開嘛﹖"},{"start":12043.274,"end":12059.778,"text":"醫療單位,可以不用企業的,你們本身就要去做評估啦。我再請教你一個問題,你覺得我們台灣有多少黑人?我說的黑人就是沒信心、沒服供的。呃,我想有一些頭衣的勞工。你覺得有這麼多人?我知道有這麼多人,頭衣勞工。不是頭衣喔,頭衣的我們是有的關喔,我們有他的資料喔。"},{"start":12072.662,"end":12089.057,"text":"我不是在跟你說討議的喔!討議的八九萬人喔!這是你定落的有八萬五千多的,但是實際的數字比這比較多!你...你會認同嗎?我...我沒有這個數字,我不知道你的數字從哪裡來的。我來講八萬五千多死的,是超過八萬五千多啦,這樣。你覺得這個討議外勞都在幹什麼?"},{"start":12098.517,"end":12101.899,"text":"因為很多事情,你都吃不贏,他也不一定第一時間幫你報告這麼多。"},{"start":12122.386,"end":12129.408,"text":"你知不知道我們這裡的頭衣外勞生有多少人?我跟你說的黑人就是這些人。你說如果是頭衣外勞生有多少人?這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…"},{"start":12151.194,"end":12151.734,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":12178.134,"end":12200.252,"text":"投意外勞的報告,投意跟你講,我不用,我兩千三就好。他在看我合法的臺灣的這個冒頭拼啊,他也要自己去報啊,他也要先分,結果他拼了兩千三。這個發報的人,他竟然請了他啊。不知道八點準時準點四十來報到,啊你都抓沒有?你都沒得抓啊?"},{"start":12206.986,"end":12231.276,"text":"你都沒時間了!我現在跟你講這個新聞,他到底有信心了嗎?這我要認真來查緝啦齁,啊這這我沒跟你講過。你現在要趕緊有重金嗎?沒,沒跟你講過。報告委我們這個外移工的查緝,陶藝移工的查緝是移民署齁,會會同國安團隊一起來做,所以我們只要有接獲信的話我們也會去。"},{"start":12232.276,"end":12256.809,"text":"我現在就跟你說,港鐵啊,港鐵裡面就有這麼個無親民情的、逃逸的、每天在這裏,還兼做貓頭啦!他是包公給他,不是來做綱領的!啊,他是放我們台灣的貓頭,我們這個土木包公的,我還要去把大包拿小包,你聽到沒有?我還要再開發票給他,你聽到沒有?他不用發票,不用新聞,去放我旁邊啊!"},{"start":12258.54,"end":12281.518,"text":"請委員齁,我們只要這種情形,一檢舉我們一定會去查緝。我跟妳講,妳的檢舉獎金多少?一個平均沒到一萬,現在還有檢舉獎金嗎?討議外勞?這個可能要問移民署。因為今天不是移民署。平均啦齁。我跟妳講,平均一個人得到的檢舉獎金,獎金要到一萬塊啦。齁。"},{"start":12285.305,"end":12288.01,"text":"您在3日前來向那兩千多萬處理,等於說一檔抓不到一千個,一檔抓不到一千個,早起的很多。"},{"start":12296.786,"end":12319.164,"text":"您有在做,但是怎樣?是到底人力不足?人力不足沒有辦法去面對,還是政報銷聲,政案不足?我相信這樣啦,委員,今天你說的齁,我們合不保陷,你就是財政保不來,但是我會答應你齁,我答應你就是說,我要查這個勞工...這後面還有治安問題嘛,還有醫療問題嘛,很多好來。"},{"start":12324.455,"end":12340.627,"text":"我們這個勞動部你知道兩星期前喔,你去討論水庫,有一個22歲的年輕人去那裡做工,叫都市你知不知道?我知道,我有看到,我請問你,水庫在做工要塞船啊,他也沒教,為什麼要塞船啊?啊,我們這個動力船就對了齁,"},{"start":12352.573,"end":12374.361,"text":"因為你扣架腳,裡面有跟你約束你要怎麼救心,有人堵罪你要怎麼處理嘛,才能拿到這個架手這腳,他也沒有架腳,是怎麼他可以去洗嘴唇啊?阿造成一條死命,這是一個好處啦,他老爸在辛苦他都這樣照顧,結果你到東坡有去跟他聊天,你有針對這個特殊的,整個水庫都沒有蓋過,大家都不知道他怎麼堵死的。"},{"start":12383.578,"end":12405.789,"text":"阿瓜有蒙嘴口的主任,他有簡單說,他也沒人在乎你的報告就不會出了嘛,你都這樣嗎?是,是。阿剛才說人沒有他,現在就是說你對這個特殊行業、特殊的工程、法保你怎麼那麼獨特的啊?你沒辦法咧?你都知道說的,我是聽人家說的喔。"},{"start":12408.991,"end":12417.357,"text":"沒有這回事喔?發言委員沒有這回事?沒有啦!我知道你已經說沒有嘛!確實沒有這回事啊!民進黨我伯爺也很多人嘛!我跟妳說啦齁!我不是跟妳說一定有啦!屁阿免有這種的啦!"},{"start":12430.081,"end":12432.462,"text":"勞動監督還用政敵介入就對了?"},{"start":12432.462,"end":12442.01,"text":"不可能啦我會說他一定不理會說你年紀這麼好這麼高,你獨特的這個補費,如果還有這種情形,我是很不依偎的我如果說勞動部有這麼要用政治的方式來做勞動檢查,我一定跟他要求說這一定是不行的"},{"start":12451.991,"end":12453.072,"text":"這人就是我們內行,內行就知道要找什麼人"},{"start":12473.288,"end":12474.248,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":12497.93,"end":12503.446,"text":"我請教你這段時間你有要求施耀書說將對這的食品安全擴大去檢查嗎?"},{"start":12506.536,"end":12513.199,"text":"有啊,這個檢查的問題就是若蘇丹紅的辣椒粉這件事,是最終我們是發言...我現在是說針對其他的食品當然都有電機在檢查啊我們比較緊張這一個月來你有擴大去做嗎?"},{"start":12530.987,"end":12544.576,"text":"該委員報告,我們第一階段就是為政靠六個月來可能造成這個計劃。我本來今天是要送你,想說你最好一半在這,我要拿一份報告給你,因為我不能這麼說,因為要考慮嘛,要不然,如果那個市協會又污染到,壞掉人的產品,有可能企業會倒嘛,對不對?"},{"start":12556.351,"end":12576.14,"text":"所以我報告出來的時候,我會盯著你。我意思是說,你要擴大去檢查啦。不能只有酒精有白的這,在這個對象,其他的產品有白的,應該在這個時候要做筆跡的責任。我同意啦,我同意,我聽到。你如果有什麼..."},{"start":12581.792,"end":12581.932,"text":"感謝你"},{"start":12599.537,"end":12600.017,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":12640.29,"end":12656.775,"text":"謝謝謝委員龍介的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告委員會,上午的質詢到此為止。本次會議為委員提出臨時提案。我們就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":21072.233,"end":21091.16,"text":"報告願會,現在我們繼續開會。接下來我們請黃婕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請那個行政院長跟衛福部長。麻煩請陳院長及衛福部備詢。黃衛福官,恭喜你當選立委。"},{"start":21100.85,"end":21127.782,"text":"謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果"},{"start":21128.422,"end":21145.339,"text":"那走到了現在我認為接下來我們應該要討論一下人工生殖的部分也就是性別權益最後的一塊拼圖也應該要把它拼起來那首先我想要請教一下院長您認為生育權是不是憲法所保障的權利之一應該是"},{"start":21146.295,"end":21172.472,"text":"沒錯這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起"},{"start":21173.627,"end":21198.083,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權"},{"start":21199.11,"end":21225.788,"text":"那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對"},{"start":21227.509,"end":21253.843,"text":"當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭"},{"start":21254.904,"end":21263.102,"text":"然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?"},{"start":21264.564,"end":21285.445,"text":"這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案啦好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待"},{"start":21287.347,"end":21312.264,"text":"那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影"},{"start":21312.904,"end":21329.772,"text":"或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情"},{"start":21330.592,"end":21345.194,"text":"那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組"},{"start":21346.195,"end":21361.721,"text":"的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低"},{"start":21362.521,"end":21390.147,"text":"那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在"},{"start":21391.291,"end":21417.669,"text":"重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的所以根據以上這些主張我想要問一下我們現在行政院有沒有在準備我們人工生殖板的修法如果有的話大概什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":21419.251,"end":21443.087,"text":"這個確實是有,我們請部長簡單回答一下。目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會,在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會舉行。把這些意見都收集出來之後,我們的版本就會送到行政院去。"},{"start":21444.49,"end":21467.404,"text":"我們預計我們院板大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來"},{"start":21468.584,"end":21496.834,"text":"我們一旦送到行政院來我們會請政委來加速審查來加速來出行政院好謝謝院長謝謝部長希望就是如期的如你們所說的上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來好那再來我要請教一下部長囉因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈創作圈的陳情那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢是這關於這個兒校虛擬的部分"},{"start":21497.654,"end":21514.831,"text":"那看一下這個iWIN的爭議喔 這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢 兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像 然後呢 這個函式發了之後12月"},{"start":21515.612,"end":21541.272,"text":"IWIN就接到檢舉了說喔PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說喔這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的"},{"start":21542.273,"end":21561.107,"text":"具體的這個範圍不明的情況下大家不知道該如何示好那首先我先請問一下部長現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼"},{"start":21562.209,"end":21580.607,"text":"當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。"},{"start":21581.738,"end":21605.157,"text":"是的部長其實剛剛提到兩個部分我剛剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險"},{"start":21606.209,"end":21614.2,"text":"那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪"},{"start":21615.202,"end":21636.619,"text":"那我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為"},{"start":21637.399,"end":21657.518,"text":"他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加注在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥"},{"start":21658.559,"end":21673.531,"text":"部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量"},{"start":21674.292,"end":21698.358,"text":"如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的"},{"start":21699.358,"end":21723.148,"text":"那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據"},{"start":21724.569,"end":21745.156,"text":"那其實以你們現在的主張阿你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯因為你認為他只要畫了他只要散佈了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖你就犯法了然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕"},{"start":21746.135,"end":21764.063,"text":"因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險"},{"start":21765.143,"end":21765.404,"text":"怎麼說?我們來看下一張圖。"},{"start":21782.386,"end":21800.111,"text":"看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬"},{"start":21800.751,"end":21818.785,"text":"那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面"},{"start":21819.705,"end":21847.403,"text":"再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面"},{"start":21848.524,"end":21870.413,"text":"他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法"},{"start":21872.694,"end":21890.792,"text":"好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。"},{"start":21891.272,"end":21911.728,"text":"只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼"},{"start":21912.168,"end":21935.458,"text":"如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎"},{"start":21937.059,"end":21954.137,"text":"這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護"},{"start":21955.111,"end":21981.836,"text":"一定要這些犯罪一定要打擊到底絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害這個是前提但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童"},{"start":21982.216,"end":22005.382,"text":"他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施"},{"start":22026.235,"end":22028.276,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。謝謝院長。有請陳院長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":22063.471,"end":22085.443,"text":"謝謝院長那關係上週五質詢的時候有提到行政院的穩定物價小組那接著那天晚上就看到新聞稿有指出那包括密切觀察清明節農產及民生物資的價量情勢那等等那就看到當天晚上新聞稿就上了"},{"start":22086.338,"end":22114.142,"text":"但是本席還是要反映的就是說因為那時候是記得一段時間都沒有放因為不一定每個月開會那放了之後到最後是只有兩頁只有兩頁的一個會議紀錄那所以也難怪大家對於目前行政院穩定物價小組在這個穩定物價的一個功能跟速度上大家當然是民眾會感到擔憂那所以說在這裡還是要特別的在"},{"start":22114.878,"end":22115.338,"text":"我會請這個物價小組在"},{"start":22138.928,"end":22158.783,"text":"就如同委員所鼓勵的我們繼續努力把物價穩定當作是一個很重要的一個工作而且在未來的這個紀錄上能夠稍微更詳細一點那個結論摘要可以理解但是要及時因為民眾其實大家還是會非常的重視今年會不會是漲字當頭漲注是關鍵字好"},{"start":22162.145,"end":22183.151,"text":"那謝謝院長那接著再回到漲價這一題臺電確定要漲價11%還不用說小戶用電會不會影響不管是一個麵包的產生從運送到製造配送販賣通通都跟電有關係百分之百都會受到影響但是先前講到漲健保的這一塊不知道會不會調漲"},{"start":22184.369,"end":22204.698,"text":"那就是請教院長跟部長在醫院跟診所那24小時的有12小時營運的診所也有但是因為像這些的醫院跟診所他們這環境有許多重要的藥物藥品包括疫苗他們其實都需要一個冷藏設備需要維持他疫苗的活性所以這個用電的漲價這個一定會受到牽連"},{"start":22207.839,"end":22219.529,"text":"那想先請教一下部長,針對診所、小型醫院會不會採取電費的補助?怎麼補助還能夠讓我們的民眾不會因為這個漲健保費受到影響?"},{"start":22220.861,"end":22246.778,"text":"從我們初步的一個估計那大型的醫院他這一次電價的調漲對他們的成本的影響大概是在0.5到1%這樣但是小醫院就比較高大概會影響2%到3%那診所來講的話目前看起來影響並不大因為他大部分都是屬於住家型的一個用電"},{"start":22247.83,"end":22277.083,"text":"那事實上他用電的強度也沒那麼高那就直接請教部長因為在南投縣算是偏鄉那其實在這個數據資料我也有醫學中心是0.5到1%地區醫院是2到4%還部立醫院不同那臺北桃園的跟偏鄉的這個比例也都不同那就想要直接就教部長那目前針對這個小型醫院跟診所的部分在因為用電的部分那漲價了那補助的部分"},{"start":22277.948,"end":22297.755,"text":"還照顧的部分要如何進行以及健保分會會不會調漲所以這個部分的話那行政院是要做一個通盤的檢討那我就直接請教院長那這個可不可以做一個宣誓性的部分會針對醫院跟診所來進行補貼基本上是這樣子如果說我們調漲"},{"start":22298.695,"end":22321.032,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":22321.032,"end":22321.692,"text":"因為坦白講這個切衣法動全身"},{"start":22338.138,"end":22358.806,"text":"那其實我講一下明天這個副院長還是會請這個相關的單位再來做一次的討論但是基本上我們是要看他的占比是多少好沒關係那我還是在這裡本席還是要提出因為我也要為地方的診所包括我們的醫院來發聲那因為這種漲電價牽引法的動權聲"},{"start":22363.499,"end":22385.354,"text":"那勢必一定會增加他們的成本那如果說在一個可以的預算之下那也會希望說行政院也要體恤這些醫療機構他們在地方上面不是因為醫療機構他就一定是比較富有而是他們在所做的其實還是在照顧我們地方上的鄉親那如果說在這個比例上面可以的情況之下"},{"start":22385.956,"end":22392.998,"text":"但是我還是在強調要看它的佔營運成本的百分比是多少來做決定那這個本來就是應該要這樣看這個我可以理解但是因為"},{"start":22405.442,"end":22407.344,"text":"因為這個聲音還是要被聽到還是要被重視,這樣子合理吧?"},{"start":22432.298,"end":22443.83,"text":"那另外的話再補貼電價那不僅是醫院他們可能因為這樣子受到影響那我們是本席是不希望這樣子的成本是轉嫁到病患的身上"},{"start":22445.038,"end":22464.419,"text":"我剛才講過我們希望因為他的漲幅很小所以應該他可以自行吸收那同樣的除了醫療機構之外那我們是希望窮人不要走向一個他沒有生病的權利壓垮他們窮人的有時候並不是病痛而是後面他所負擔的一個經濟壓力"},{"start":22465.8,"end":22481.836,"text":"那所以除了醫療診所、醫院診所之外本席要幫另外一個團體請命就是在目前來講的話許多的社福團體、育幼院、老人照護機構那其實在所謂的高通房、高電價、高消費的情況之下其實像現在來講"},{"start":22483.018,"end":22512.155,"text":"大家對於社福團體的捐贈的一個意願來講他們其實是比起以前在疫情以前是比較低的委員那個社福團體已經排除漲價排除漲價對早就是在那個經濟部的宣布當中有沒有問題因為排除漲價的話那就至少針對社福團體的部分那能夠進行照顧讓他們善的循環可以持續上漲甚至還希望外府部包括行政院"},{"start":22512.415,"end":22529.206,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":22529.326,"end":22548.095,"text":"那所以說我覺得社福團體要照顧他們才能夠去照顧在這個整個不管是物價上漲的情況疫情之後的情況他們才能夠去幫助更多的人所以除了是電價電價的部分是排除了這是我其中一小題但是另外本席在這裡也希望衛福部包括行政院可以特別針對"},{"start":22549.036,"end":22574.851,"text":"社福團體的照顧上能夠有一些方案,這樣子同意吧?同意,那看你的方案是什麼?實際上在社福的團體或者長照的這邊的話,政府一向是不予一例。比如說馬前總統的時候,他的那個長照只有不到45億,但是我們現在已經編列了800多億了。所以在社福的,還有社福的預算,我們也增加了"},{"start":22575.431,"end":22601.861,"text":"這一個按照CPI的增加增加的期限。我要跟院長講你剛才所說的這些內容馬英九總統時期那是起步啊那時候的長照的長照的法規那時候我在當國會助理的時候我也有幫蔡景龍委員跟吳彥文起草過那時候的草野是國民黨執政所以也受到那時候民進黨的委員諸多的一個訪談跟反對所以這過程我知道所以馬英九那時候執政時期他通過了之後"},{"start":22602.441,"end":22614.446,"text":"有個開頭後面才能夠持續的再有長昭2.0之後的一個成長所以我覺得我在這裡還是要肯定一下馬英九總統好那接著問一下我們地方的議題有關部長就是"},{"start":22615.35,"end":22639.886,"text":"醫學中心及重度急救責任醫院的服務獎勵計畫那在12年12月31日止那時候有停止那現在來講再開啟下一個階段的計畫那我想請問一下部長針對南投部立醫院我們現在的南投醫院要來做提升那部長您的看法如何以及您的支持的程度如何"},{"start":22641.447,"end":22645.549,"text":"目前是往重度急救責任醫院的方向去走,但是這恐怕也沒有辦法一觸可及。"},{"start":22657.876,"end":22682.803,"text":"所以有一些比較可以必要性比較強的部分,比方說在...沒關係,我就直接問部長重點好了。希望您能夠全力的支持部立醫院,因為那有關於我們南投縣徐東縣民。那知識衛專科醫生是他們目前所欠缺的,這個對於衛福部來講應該是可以來去協助的,可以吧?"},{"start":22687.53,"end":22700.718,"text":"有你的這句話我相信在未來來講的安投不立院的升級相信我相信對於部內的一個人員來講就是提升很大的信心謝謝那接著老東部長部長謝謝"},{"start":22713.864,"end":22735.603,"text":"部長,剛才跟你一起走進來,我那時候就很想先問你,目前來講移工的部分有關於這個逃逸外勞8萬3千多人,那目前來講所進行的一個如何改善的措施,請監督回答一下。報告委員,其實我們大概因為針對一些缺工的產業,比如說像農業、民間營造業,那我們這個"},{"start":22738.826,"end":22740.227,"text":"那剩下的將近六、七萬人那現在如何處理?"},{"start":22766.66,"end":22787.375,"text":"報告委員這個部分當然我們跟那個就是移民署會持續會統國安團隊跟勞動部我們一起來持續來查緝我大致上我補充一下因為我還是會比較鼓勵說對於這種討議外勞的部分我們還是要去關注這個資訊的傳遞"},{"start":22789.48,"end":22809.895,"text":"當然像現有的能夠具有這個成績之外還有許多能夠再列在案的包括黑術那在這個問題的話是在於說政策措施的傳遞其實他們並不看得到他們黑工不會看新聞他也不會等著勞動部的措施所以我還是要勉勵勞動部對於這個移工問題大家所擔心的"},{"start":22810.715,"end":22823.733,"text":"不能飛就用跑的不能跑就用走的不能走也用爬的不管如何還是要持續針對這個議題來去積極改善那我直接接著就叫大家關心的就是最低工資審議委員會在Q3的時候會進行討論"},{"start":22827.197,"end":22845.808,"text":"那在這次的大選三個總統候選人通通都有提出還希望的一個調漲的一個目標那目前來講我國最低工資在27470那時薪是183那我想直接就叫在今年的CPI超過2%央行最新預測也在2.16%今年有沒有機會調漲的時候以3萬元為目標"},{"start":22851.951,"end":22876.281,"text":"報告委員齁,因為這個我們的基本工資的條款...這是賴總統提的喔!蛤?賴總統他也有提這個3萬目標喔!對,我想這個是我們的目標喔!我也有提3萬3啦!對,我們這個3萬是我們的目標,我們一定會持續往這個目標來前進,但是我要跟委員說,這個部分就是最低工資的委員齁,審議委員會他們去開會決定,那包括說相關的...那我要的其實沒關係,部長,這個勞動體系我很清楚喔,那我直接請教院長,"},{"start":22880.743,"end":22899.174,"text":"以這個3萬元為目標,時薪能夠以這200元為目標,在今年往這個方向努力可不可以?我們當然是希望能夠在最低工資的這一個部分努力來全力以赴,但是我仍然支持部長的想法。"},{"start":22899.514,"end":22901.516,"text":"但是我最主要是想說院長跟部長還是有一個目標在"},{"start":22920.936,"end":22929.604,"text":"大家總是在討論的時候大家在研究的時候比較可以往這方向來聚焦嘛當然如果說以CPI講到2.03%對啦越來越好那所以183再加個2%的話以200為目標有沒有機會"},{"start":22936.92,"end":22937.52,"text":"我本席還是要在這裡反映"},{"start":22954.432,"end":22955.493,"text":"我們個人都不能夠同意"},{"start":22980.316,"end":22981.616,"text":"謝謝委員的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第12號蘇委員侵權質詢。謝謝,謝謝院長。我們請陳院長。"},{"start":23007.566,"end":23018.491,"text":"再請陳院長備詢。再請衛福部備詢。主委,午安。我要跟我們院長還有學部長,因為你責貴副總統、責貴衛生署署長,所以醫療你非常的內行,學部長更不用講。"},{"start":23037.844,"end":23052.191,"text":"因為挺感謝這不管朝野這幾天都看到他們非常關心醫界,好像醫界敲眼了。好,院長,你看到這韓國,這是韓國。這因為他們對這個醫學生有一些要檢查嘛,但是醫學生有抗議。我研究韓國這次的問題蠻嚴重,而且他有80%跟台灣雷同。"},{"start":23067.196,"end":23073.406,"text":"但是他們的總統我覺得很另類,他不去跟北韓對幹,只能跟自己的醫護人員來對幹。"},{"start":23075.717,"end":23075.737,"text":"院長"},{"start":23103.54,"end":23127.433,"text":"一間廣東飯店,一間四千幾個,一間便宜,包括副流的都加起來,一間青銅庫,再來。你選名,那些人沒多少,大伯也有很多人。選一間名,月八到四千。換一個名,兩百幾個,我看都兩百幾個,有三百幾個。"},{"start":23131.843,"end":23132.988,"text":"您的看法是怎樣?"},{"start":23136.704,"end":23137.564,"text":"好,那接著你看"},{"start":23165.769,"end":23191.025,"text":"這個是健保署公布出來的data各位看到我們臺大醫院早上很多委員談了臺大醫院院長說他的決議1%然後他主要的收入是來自於美食街停車場捐贈像林口長庚他就是靠他的股票股利他的本業還虧錢"},{"start":23193.069,"end":23218.717,"text":"所以這個是不應該,你這樣一直要要求醫界要有韌性,請問某幾名要有韌性,這就緊張他不會了。下一張。我想陳院長你也很厲害,那成本控制啦等等等等,但是我們跟韓國一樣,醫學生不要選內外婦兒。"},{"start":23220.472,"end":23226.618,"text":"我們這裡跟韓國幾乎一模一樣,他們的醫師數8萬多,我們的醫師數5萬多,那現在醫學每年遭受差不多3000多位,我們說1500,那現在要加到一年要收5000多個,所以整個都變胖。"},{"start":23248.061,"end":23268.706,"text":"議事分配不精、偏鄉不足等等。我們台灣在家鄉的健保是用總額預算,每年要結清。議長,他自己的要求不足,一點一口,最少要0.95,不然他不會下去。"},{"start":23275.816,"end":23300.993,"text":"前幾天那個副理前任會來找我他說他們希望新進的副律師70萬70萬然後資深的希望每個月的薪資能9萬到10萬那其他醫事相關放射檢驗等等那都要去啊醫生已經15年沒去沒薪水沒條件15年喔齁"},{"start":23303.215,"end":23304.055,"text":"委員長,有什麼想法嗎?"},{"start":23323.567,"end":23333.603,"text":"有這部分醫事人員的行職、會醫師的部分,你說的包括護理師還有其他的部分,衛福部實際上有一個計畫要再進行,請部長簡單講一下。"},{"start":23338.454,"end":23365.729,"text":"首先是護理師的部分的話,那我們會推出一個護理繁重加急的這個計畫。那這個計畫目前正在規劃,看今年有沒有機會去執行。然後其他醫事人員的部分,那這個當然還要再做一些估算。晚上我們那個廖委員他提了一個發展特別條例,我給你拍一張我看。"},{"start":23368.288,"end":23396.116,"text":"那個是比較難但是呢我要跟你報告我們這幾戶偏低重鎮沒人要走還河山還要放大沒人這樣啦薪水可以打折嗎?你在這邊宣示薪水可以打折嗎?馬上出去放鞭炮行嘛 對不對所以我希望我們要來搞個總額不要用總額預算總額改成目標制"},{"start":23397.316,"end":23401.057,"text":"我相信委員你很清楚,這個點數、點值、總額預算是多少,這不只是為政府這邊來的"},{"start":23427.034,"end":23427.915,"text":"我們的總統是醫生聖章科"},{"start":23455.051,"end":23476.917,"text":"護產科的部長,然後你是公衛,這個時候是最好,然後大家要那麼關心,然後醫療真的要很差,這個時候好好地把總額6%往上拉,再來你說把長照要納進來,就把它納進來啊,長照保險法沒有辦法單獨立法,我們就把它納到健保法裡面,"},{"start":23479.451,"end":23479.471,"text":"委員會議員議員議員"},{"start":23509.175,"end":23524.763,"text":"希望變報告到明天就先到,今天很多,我們很多委員都在退醫療院所發生,你動載的有榮譽、有社福,你不太要把醫療放進去,我們已經去32%了,今年又去11%、15%了,那整個地方真的很嚴重。"},{"start":23533.172,"end":23538.255,"text":"委員長,你有沒有看過醫學中心的保溫是0.5到1%,區域、地區醫院是2到3%,偏遠的小醫院是4%。你也說它這樣4%對整個全體營運成本會有多少的影響。當然我也知道這個醫療機構是最大的辛苦,我也感謝他們照顧著民眾的健康,但是"},{"start":23561.129,"end":23586.457,"text":"這個補助的問題就要看過政府的電力了。再來前幾天我們衛福部把這個國安會上線給取消。吼,不是很好嗎?部長,你很要事耶。比較有可能的一國安會沒有上線,結果引起百姓,我們在基層聽到,大家都買到要死。啊昨天的你把醫界推到百姓的對立面,這很糟糕耶,沒有人這樣做的啦。部長。"},{"start":23588.676,"end":23598.64,"text":"委員你的意思是說不可以限制,不可以管你以前只是報備而已,結果每一個衛生局都幫你做審查但是我們與法無據啊因為那些衛生局不讓醫療機構他們自己去決定嘛我感覺"},{"start":23616.297,"end":23616.818,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":23633.112,"end":23638.154,"text":"所以我再問一下,委員的意思是說不應該這樣做,所以那個國會一樣要限制是不是這樣?一樣由縣市政府來規範。反正應該被查變成審查喔?"},{"start":23660.247,"end":23665.692,"text":"對阿,審查、補湯阿,那是醫院管理費,那是醫療機構的行政管理費齁,不應該蓋健保座,環境部...四分鐘而已喔,趕快說"},{"start":23683.837,"end":23710.062,"text":"委員長,你高雄人,你看我們現在的家鄉面這樣,這是鹽埔啦,這一張,這是林綠啦,你看看,都紅紅的,這個這種光電怎麼有辦法將來要復耕啦,在下面,你知道這個長青苔,這樣東一塊西一塊,現在有在限制了,那個寸草不生啦,你看這整個都"},{"start":23713.26,"end":23736.679,"text":"喔 這個更誇張齁 好 再下一張 再下那個 環境部學部長 你的看案啦給所有人報告 事實上我們現在的環評法裡面齁 針對光電這一塊事實上只有重要失地 但是我們已經聽到聲音 所以現在在進行整個修法的"},{"start":23738.187,"end":23738.848,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23749.528,"end":23749.828,"text":"議員長．實話實現自己的證據。"},{"start":23770.336,"end":23770.956,"text":"這是人在抗爭的"},{"start":23798.752,"end":23803.14,"text":"這皮你看到沒有,這皮就是要去坤町車廂,你看,說行政院說這是美麗的天際線,這美麗的天際線,看有沒有透過啊。"},{"start":23812.915,"end":23816.197,"text":"這裡啦,這裡是老闢農場,剩底後的六七百公頃的灰下去做公安店。"},{"start":23843.735,"end":23867.621,"text":"你茶葉生產的品質很好耶!六、七百公頃耶!下一張。而且我聽到很多施工的單位來跟我澄清。欸!沈院長你可能沒聽過。你的光電補佐的那些能源大廠,那大老闆,立在後面,燙到叭叭叭,這些廠商,水電的啦、營造的啦、土木的。"},{"start":23872.915,"end":23892.817,"text":"沒有時間可以做好也沒有時間。做好在發展啊,已經在嘆息啊,也沒有時間。外界這些承包商還要面對百姓的成抗跟糾紛,然後拿不到錢,然後倒閉。這是另類喔。你去捧那些大老闆。"},{"start":23894.096,"end":23894.476,"text":"我以為是少數,結果是大多數。"},{"start":23915.842,"end":23926.373,"text":"所以這些光臨的就真的不可以胡亂曬,要去打大老闆,我這也強烈的跟他們譴責。希望部長跟院長可以查看看。我們來清查。"},{"start":23931.421,"end":23950.077,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李昆城委員之質詢以書面提出。請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。再接下來我們請登記第14號蘇委員巧會質詢。"},{"start":23960.572,"end":23964.077,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請陳建仁、陳院長。再請陳院長備詢。市委,午安。"},{"start":23971.155,"end":24000.094,"text":"院長好,今天是蔡英文總統任內院長最後一次來院會進行總質詢所以我想在今天開始詢答前我要先跟院長說辛苦了這一年四個月真的是不容易而且我想其實在座不只是陳院長陳院長甚至是用不同身份在這八年當中副總統、院長和整個行政團隊包括在座許明春部長、薛瑞元部長甚至是李孟彥秘書長等"},{"start":24001.295,"end":24001.555,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵"},{"start":24026.525,"end":24052.658,"text":"不過責任在繼續啊所以就跟院長就教尤其是我過去四年都是在未還我想用這個經驗跟院長討論因為現在正是在編列明年預算概算的時候所以很多的政策齁其實都是牽涉到錢的問題我想一個立法委員在這裡如果有想要推動的事情不外乎兩種方法第一個是跟行政院來討論甚至拜託能不能增加公務預算"},{"start":24053.698,"end":24077.336,"text":"那另外一個其實就是看既有的預算當中能不能調挪嘛這其實不太可能是一個委員去編列什麼特別預算條例這樣子的狀況這是不可能發生的事情啊所以我們以衛福部為例衛福部今年113年的預算我看公務預算是3384億現在正在編列明年的那如果跟他非常相關的是健保經費的這個部分那113年是8755億"},{"start":24080.899,"end":24105.74,"text":"所以將這麼多的錢來講那我們有哪一些新的事情要推動這是我今天最想救教的我個人關心的新的事物有幾個第一個是剛剛很多委員也已經討論過的關於癌症防治的部分尤其是新藥的部分那新藥的部分其實我從上一屆我就提出了這個癌症防治法希望推動的是癌症新藥基金"},{"start":24106.48,"end":24134.491,"text":"我認為用基金才會是一個根本解決問題的狀況就是另外有一筆財源來處理但現在不管是行政院或部內這邊提出的是一個這個暫時性支付啦老師說有這個暫時性支付也很好因為這樣的狀況已經讓像今年的這個新藥有增加31件擴增幾部藥物是24件直接比去年成長了82%這個速度是增加了非常的快現在是61"},{"start":24135.091,"end":24153.071,"text":"好可是會有兩個問題阿兩個問題的話第一個就是說那如果到時候這個新藥真的過了那這個過的新藥是回去繼續佔健保的總額嗎這是第一個那大家就會擔心那總額是不是因為這些藥都通常比較貴嘛那所以這個是不是排擠了大家的狀況"},{"start":24154.472,"end":24157.993,"text":"當然如果在暫時性支付這段時間的話主要是看他的藥的療效是否如預期"},{"start":24183.801,"end":24195.599,"text":"對如果他符合預期的話那就會變成一個是在總額裡面嘛那就回到會不會佔因為總額大家已經在覺得少不夠用了啊對不對總額不夠用就是總額要成長"},{"start":24196.954,"end":24220.353,"text":"所以這一個問題你也承認是會回到總額去而且總額就會佔了嘛那老實講啦以現在來講的話我看今年這個現在的這個新藥的部分啊2022年的癌症藥物費用在健保已經佔了13.1%了那每年平均的成長是10%比我們平均總額的成長4%是高兩倍"},{"start":24221.053,"end":24242.568,"text":"所以現在的用藥就已經是比總額多兩倍了那如果新藥繼續進來那不就吃掉更多新藥不會有那麼快但是我們就是希望他快啊這個要看醫學的進步還是會有一個速率沒有關係因為我們現在在討論的總目標還是說那錢夠不夠"},{"start":24245.33,"end":24245.35,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":24261.664,"end":24265.948,"text":"我希望行政院能夠考慮在沒有成立基金之前這個錢就像剛剛院長聽到的這已經是第一個需要很多預算的部分了好癌症新藥"},{"start":24283.306,"end":24307.927,"text":"第二個也會用到很多錢的部分我也是跟薛部長在未完委員會討論非常多次我的觀念很簡單就是在這幾年尤其COVID-19之下我們很清楚的看到在保衛疆土的是三軍但是在守衛國人健康的就是醫事人員啊所以投資醫事人員就是投資國民健康嘛"},{"start":24308.553,"end":24322.57,"text":"所以要怎麼讓他們覺得我們的工作是有價值的有代價的而且是值得的這真的是最重要的一件事情所以大家在講的其實到最後就是要講健保點值的這個部分"},{"start":24323.268,"end":24342.773,"text":"﹗"},{"start":24342.833,"end":24370.33,"text":"院長部內這邊也已經幫忙了嘛第一是撥補公務預算100億進去第二把健保總額裡面那個破裡面有一些拿掉了一個是C肝的房子一個是艾滋的房子這樣也大概100億所以就挪出了200億嘛恰恰好是我最想部長這些我都是說給院長聽的啦我都是說給院長聽的恰恰好這個200億就是我們在看最常被忽略的"},{"start":24371.391,"end":24396.88,"text":"在健保總額給付裡面的診療費、診察費這種勞務費用因為你藥物的部分你都不能砍他定得很死啊所以總額又要給藥的錢又要給醫師這些勞務費用那能夠做的是什麼藥不能動那就只好勞務變動算一算多少一年大概就是189億、190億大概就是200億所以你今年做了200億的"},{"start":24398.3,"end":24399.201,"text":"還沒開始預計預計"},{"start":24415.529,"end":24430.113,"text":"這要跟這個行政院這邊爭取這個預算編列,因為一定要公務預算先去付這筆錢,那個才挪得出來。那你看部長,我答應你的有做到,我在總質詢的時候再一次提出了,我認為這個政策這個方向是對的。"},{"start":24439.075,"end":24465.362,"text":"醫事人員所有的在為民眾把關的醫事人員他的勞務費用是其實是最不應該被減少的一部分嘛那如果我們現在因為健保總額制我的這個部分總額沒有辦法動的狀況下那我要怎麼來讓這個勞務的費用是穩定的那坦白講就是只有公務預算撥補的這個部分是最實際的部分啊"},{"start":24465.862,"end":24484.643,"text":"好,所以當時我們聽到了這樣子的一個撲普,甚至是挪開健保的給付等等的這部分,兩百億,我們也覺得非常好,非常有道理,全力支持。所以今天在這裡特別提出,同時要問第一院長,所以你現在院長在這裡了。"},{"start":24485.924,"end":24498.013,"text":"當時部長也說他往這個方向在爭取,院長那今天你在這裡你可以有正面的答案了嗎?我想我們當然是支持這樣的一個方式,但是我們也會請主席總書來盤,盤看看所有的經費會多少。"},{"start":24501.355,"end":24519.451,"text":"那剛才談到的那一些公共衛生或者是傳染病治療等等的經費用公務預算來做然後呢讓健保有挪出一部分的錢來使得醫護人員的這個薪資呢能夠有所調整那這一個部分我想我們會往這個方向來發展"},{"start":24520.812,"end":24548.525,"text":"這一個謝謝委員的很寶貴的建議院長我實在是希望你在這裡你剛剛說我們會往這個方向來發展我其實希望可以有更肯定更強烈的肯定答案因為我去年你會這樣做這句話要記起來一定要記起來喔上面這個記者這部分一定要媒體要記起來院長表示會朝這個方向做為什麼因為我去年11月在質詢部長的時候部長說他一直在打電話給主記長啊"},{"start":24550.086,"end":24578.652,"text":"打電話打到主席長都不接他電話了哈所以我今天特別在這裡跟你說明的是我認為這是一個對的方向而且應該要這樣做甚至我還認為啦這種公用預算的撥補在法制還沒有改變之前我也會提出全民健保法的修法認為在醫事人員的勞務費用這個部分應該要能夠讓他穩定的達標這是我認為應該要有的方向所以我負責任的提出修法"},{"start":24579.352,"end":24596.784,"text":"這是我可以做的但行政院我甚至認為這個撥補應該常態化這是我的主張請院長參考但至少你答應今年會這樣做其實我剛才講的傳染病、公共衛生這一些的經費如果"},{"start":24598.268,"end":24619.206,"text":"﹗"},{"start":24619.486,"end":24623.668,"text":"另外第三題,其實兒童節快要到了。其實兒科醫師現在也是大聲在疾呼。當時部長上任的第一件事情就是要守護兒科醫師,讓兒科醫師的人力可以不流失。"},{"start":24646.337,"end":24666.727,"text":"所以其實這邊在講的,兒科醫師也在呼籲啊,0到6歲的兒童門診及住院的部分負擔費用可以免除。0到6歲兒童基層門診、加護病房及急重症健保加成。坦白講這些都是他們的主張,但是合不合理,我也認為合理啊。"},{"start":24668.008,"end":24682.079,"text":"這樣這一些事務可以有穩定的裁員其實就是對兒科醫師最好的人才留志的部分啊所以你看講一、二、三其實都已經是預算的部分了所以我在這裡齁"},{"start":24683.16,"end":24706.605,"text":"因為過去的4年確確實實剛好在疫情的期間整個都在未完可以看得出來醫事人員對國家的重要我實在是認為今年概算在編的時候衛福部要多一點啦真的是要多一點啦該給的就要給足啦這個兒科的照顧這個是很重要而且衛福部本身就有一個優化兒童醫療照顧計畫啦你簡單講一下給委員放心一下"},{"start":24711.857,"end":24726.794,"text":"委員這剛剛提出來後面的這已經在做健保加成這今年已經有加成上去已經加加成上去最近來通過那至於說門診住院的部分負擔免除這個還是要算一下"},{"start":24727.595,"end":24727.615,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":24744.156,"end":24765.32,"text":"我支持所有的計畫應該要攤開來看甚至不只是衛福部要把自己所有的計畫因為我們也不是只有講兒科啊我們剛剛已經從癌症、心藥一直到醫事人員一直到兒科這還是我能夠列舉的三項而已其實我們有更多的項目本來我們在做的工作就是國家資源怎麼配置嘛"},{"start":24765.7,"end":24779.601,"text":"所以衛福部有衛福部的資源配置甚至是到行政院的層次的時候是國家整個資源怎麼配置的部分啊所以這當然應該攤開來看輕重緩急啊只是我在這裡利用可以跟院長討論政策的時間"},{"start":24781.824,"end":24796.949,"text":"我要大聲疾呼今年我實在是強力的支持衛福部的預算應該要衛福部的概算應該要能夠更為增加讓醫事人員在辛苦的這段時間之後可以覺得得到國家的支持"},{"start":24797.529,"end":24817.171,"text":"這是我最大的出發點至於怎麼配置合理專業當然交由部和行政院做最後的決定但我在這裡表示我的意見這是第一個關於預算配置的部分第二個我也其實還想說其實衛福部也擔了很多的責任比如說我們最大的國安問題之一少子化"},{"start":24818.072,"end":24844.312,"text":"少子化的問題不是只壓在衛福部一個部上面而已它其實是各個部會都應該要有這個概念可以來配合我看到日本啊2023年就是去年而已12月提出的這個少子化的戰略其實是每個部門都有動起來那我因為時間不多我舉一個最簡單的例子就好了比如說我們在今天之外社會住宅"},{"start":24845.272,"end":24865.026,"text":"社會住宅它的抽籤以及入住率還有它的入住時間是不是有機會可以配合著育兒也就是有嬰幼兒學齡前兒童甚至是小學三年級之前的學童他們有入學學籍的問題耶我今天如果住到這裡剛好年限滿了那我是不是要跳走"},{"start":24865.946,"end":24874.894,"text":"這就是其中的手段之一所以我認為各部會都應該共同來擔這個國家策略我覺得這才是合理正確的"},{"start":24890.181,"end":24909.956,"text":"謝謝蘇委員巧會的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第15號王委員正續質詢。謝謝韓院長。有請院長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":24921.73,"end":24945.758,"text":"院長好。謝謝您當年給我的證書。這是幫助很多年輕學子進入到這個生命科學領域一本很重要的著作。特別令人感動的就是在書本上有閱讀到了您的父親在您晉升教授的時候提供給您的期許和祝福。"},{"start":24946.977,"end":24976.566,"text":"現正您後來在學術上擔任的中央研究院的院士在政治上也擔任的副總統現在又擔任行政院長的工作相信大部分的民眾會和我一樣衷心的感謝您對台灣人民的全心全力的付出您的父親應該也會讚許您的成就或許他也會捨不得您現在的辛苦"},{"start":24977.864,"end":24981.508,"text":"接下來還是要利用這次總質詢的機會來就教您三個認為是重要的問題。"},{"start":24998.356,"end":25024.862,"text":"一個是癌症防治的篩檢問題一個是癌症信號基金已經有很多委員都提過另外就是我們可以研議是否能夠成立國家阿比肝防治辦公室這三個問題那癌症防治尤其在篩檢的部分是有它很重要的角色您是這方面的專家應該很清楚癌症已經是過去41年來對台灣民眾"},{"start":25027.568,"end":25044.857,"text":"．一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三"},{"start":25057.605,"end":25085.522,"text":"一、二的新進步能夠盡量的來減少還正對民眾的死亡的威脅。那我們也看得出來從過去20年前的5年的存活率46.1%到目前為止我們已經提升到61.5%也就是說過去25年來20年來其實已經有把這個存活率提升到了15.4個百分比可是"},{"start":25086.616,"end":25111.454,"text":"相較於韓國他的5年存活率是70%日本是65%所以我們其實還是有很大的要進步的空間那要進步的空間我想身為這個醫師專業的賴清德總統當選人他其實非常有感受所以他很希望打造健康台灣的過程要把這個"},{"start":25112.554,"end":25139.59,"text":"到了2030年要把這個癌症死亡率死亡人數可以下降三分之一那這個就是我們未來必須要共同努力的方向那三分之一的概念就是可能可以下降15000人的死亡人數那就約略於2022年差不多是COVID的死亡人數所以這是一個很大的目標那院長你是這方面的專家"},{"start":25140.526,"end":25164.321,"text":"我們也知道從2003年癌症防治法成立以後從2010年開始比較大規模的整個癌症的防治包括篩檢的部分那已經相近14年了。院長你覺得或者是你認同目前臺灣執行中的這個五大癌症的篩檢它是有合乎我們目前的預設的目標"},{"start":25165.678,"end":25194.438,"text":"還有你滿意這些成果嗎?在目前為止我們大口如指這個四個癌症的篩檢是2024年我在當衛生署署長的時候大力在推動那推動的時候就如同你這裡寫的一樣實際上我們看到死亡率是有在明顯的下降那我們跟美國國家癌症研究中心有做過相關的分析我們覺得還需要再更加的普及相關的篩檢那其中一個很重要的篩檢就是肺癌的篩檢"},{"start":25195.259,"end":25222.095,"text":"所以我們也在前2、3年就開始推動了肺癌的篩檢因為肺腺癌特別是有家族死者的肺腺癌很高那我們現在肺癌的這一個發生的期數都比較高如果我們能夠篩檢的話我們就讓臨期的一期的可以發現像我自己一樣那這個時候存活率就會很高那這個是我們該發展的另外一個部分"},{"start":25223.275,"end":25250.666,"text":"另外篩檢的方式也可以再精進,這個部分委員是專家,我們會一起來努力。的確肺癌篩檢使用低劑量的檢查,即使在一個週年就能夠拯救了500個家庭,這是一個很好的數字。我們也知道在這個過程裡面,其實它可以發揮更多的效益出來,因為這些"},{"start":25251.99,"end":25274.375,"text":"通過篩檢檢查出來的病人基本上都是一個很早期的癌症經過適當的治療幾乎他都可以痊癒的不過我們還是會擔心我們看到的就是篩檢率如果篩檢有這麼好的成果那為什麼我們的篩檢率能不能夠有辦法適度的在提升因為我們看到其實民眾參與這個篩檢的"},{"start":25277.244,"end":25296.715,"text":"﹗"},{"start":25300.979,"end":25320.685,"text":"關注到有一些民眾他是陽篩所以陽篩就是初步檢查看起來是需要在持續做後續處理的那大腸癌的這個陽篩的我們看到百分比相較於乳癌相較於子宮頸癌就真的差很多那這部分"},{"start":25322.048,"end":25337.66,"text":"您是專家那目前到底有什麼樣的因素會讓我們的民眾對於篩檢是不願意來充分的參與那對於這個陽篩的後續追蹤也會有所畏懼不知道您的看法"},{"start":25338.741,"end":25338.761,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":25356.489,"end":25356.509,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":25379.528,"end":25380.468,"text":"對,這真的是非常可惜那這邊我們也了解到"},{"start":25409.13,"end":25436.455,"text":"其實影響國人篩檢意願的可能因素就包括我們所列出來這幾項其中有一些是沒有時間有一些是不方便或者是說他很擔心阿不然事情要檢查要做什麼這個都是會讓民眾不願意參加篩檢而已那很謝謝院長還有謝謝部長這邊也期待透過國民健康署去擬定各種更好的方法來讓民眾知道"},{"start":25437.042,"end":25437.562,"text":"﹚三、3月26日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚"},{"start":25462.875,"end":25463.035,"text":"目前﹖"},{"start":25492.645,"end":25515.516,"text":"一般的費用是4000到5000塊,那這個對民眾來講它其實是一個負擔,因為它一方面增加不方便,一方面它可能請假,尤其是在公司請假,它要做先前的準備,又要自費的負擔,所以我們很容易理解為什麼這一部分它的這個揚罪率是不如預期。"},{"start":25517.601,"end":25526.089,"text":"請問部長或者是院長有什麼方式可以讓他們有更有意願來接受這樣的這個大長徑的篩檢嗎?目前大概是這樣子的以前的話這種篩檢陽性的話那要"},{"start":25534.119,"end":25556.193,"text":"找這個病人到醫院去,都是由篩檢者,也就是說像是衛生所、基層的醫師去把他轉介過來。但是這樣子是效果不會很好,所以我們目前的做法是我們希望由醫院先把這個篩檢陽性的名單給醫院,由醫院去把他找來。"},{"start":25557.296,"end":25584.202,"text":"那找來的好處就是他就可以安排時間是比較能夠符合病人的需要的那至於剛剛委員提到的無痛的麻醉的費用的話這我們可以再來討論一下看看是不是在這方面也有做補助那當然有一個部分的話是可能跟勞動部相關的也就請假了這個問題那這個看看能不能要一起來做配合"},{"start":25585.287,"end":25604.356,"text":"好,謝謝。其實我們也很建議如果能夠有研議出一些節稅的措施來減少他的這個不方便同時又能夠讓他納入為一個免稅額的話那也許也是另外一種可行的方案。其實我們很期待企業界如果他是"},{"start":25605.504,"end":25622.479,"text":"認為員工的健康是他們企業最大的資產的話,那也許也麻煩院長將來可以呼籲企業界從這個方面可以幫助他的員工來做這方面的檢查,讓他的員工可以得到最大的照顧。確實現在很多企業界有在這樣做,對。那就麻煩院長"},{"start":25623.88,"end":25646.663,"text":"那其實我們知道如果能夠再增加量能的話當然就有機會去篩檢出更多的這些早期的癌患所以針對年齡的限制我們也期待透過一些相關專家學者的研議讓這樣的年齡層可以達到更好的或者是相對比較更有機會找到早期癌症的病人"},{"start":25647.724,"end":25669.724,"text":"大腸癌為例如果我們在45歲就開始已經開始出現大量的這些脊肉產生的時候事實上我們就可以利用這個機會把這個脊肉處理掉往後就不會變成大腸癌這個也是希望將來透過一些演繹的方式看能不能適度的去放寬其實我們最擔心的還是經費的問題"},{"start":25671.618,"end":25698.038,"text":"因為我們這樣大量的這個來篩檢以後真的可以找到更多的早期病人得到更好的這個五年存活率可是經費怎麼辦呢請問院長現在我們知道每一年會有27億28億的癌症篩檢費用那我們看到的編列出來如果要到2030年期待能夠真的把這個癌症死亡率減低三分之一的話我們看到了這個編列的經費就要逐年增加"},{"start":25699.159,"end":25719.8,"text":"甚至將近100億可是我們發現這個陰害的基金已經越來越不足不知道院長在這方面在這個預算的編列有沒有什麼更充分的這個穩定的裁員在這個部分我們也希望這個衛福部特別是國建署他能夠編列一個比較有"},{"start":25722.21,"end":25747.056,"text":"﹚總統"},{"start":25747.256,"end":25773.53,"text":"我們衛福部還有國建署這邊特別提出這一個更精進的這個癌症防治計畫然後來編列相關的經費好 謝謝那再過來就有關的信用基金的部分那剛剛部長也說明了很清楚其實目前看起來這個暫時性的專管應該是透過這個公務預算的撥補指定用途"},{"start":25774.366,"end":25775.167,"text":"我們的規劃的確是這樣子"},{"start":25801.807,"end":25825.955,"text":"行政院這邊如果預算撥補到健保基金裡面去的話這個仍然是屬於公務預算所以仍然要經過立法院這邊的審查所以並沒有說要去迴避這所謂的審查只不過因為這是公務預算的本質所以可能在健保會上面的話那就是沒有就是說不能去左右"},{"start":25839.48,"end":25841.241,"text":"接下來我們請登記第16號秋委員議員質詢。"},{"start":25869.064,"end":25869.765,"text":"祝永安"},{"start":25879.622,"end":25907.21,"text":"院長午安,院長辛苦了,經過這一整天的這個詢答那剛剛王振旭委員他是癌症治療專家是,很專家那很巧的他提到的所有的質詢的內容都跟癌症的治療或者是新藥有關係院長您跟我都是癌症的病友,對不對?是所以我接下來要跟院長請教我們要討論的這個議題我相信院長您大概知道我要問什麼"},{"start":25910.236,"end":25931.297,"text":"全球再生醫療法其實我們推動了很久再生醫療的研究生技醫療的研究是一條漫長的路小英總統這樣說過但是我覺得再生醫療雙把的推動更是一條漫長的路院長我讓您看一下這個是全球再生醫療產業的現況"},{"start":25933.579,"end":25940.385,"text":"到2023年的第三季為止,全球已經有1803項的再生醫療臨床試驗在進行中。所有的這個開發商相較於2022年的1457家,到2023年已經大幅增長了77%。"},{"start":25955.16,"end":25968.003,"text":"這個是全球推動再生醫療的大事跡日本早在2013年就通過再生醫療的促進法2014年通過了再生醫療法美國在2016年通過21世紀醫療法在2022年FDA發布了最新的再生醫療標準認可計畫"},{"start":25981.448,"end":25988.001,"text":"韓國也在2019年通過《先進再生醫療跟生物製藥的安全支持法案》"},{"start":25989.823,"end":26014.471,"text":"院長我請您再看一下這個是在2023年上市的再生醫療的產品全世界各國包括歐盟、日本、美國大家一直紛紛的在研究所謂的再生醫療的產品他們已經從自體細胞的治療不只進步到液體細胞的治療甚至基因的治療反而是新上市的這些產品的大宗"},{"start":26016.324,"end":26034.601,"text":"這個呢我追溯到最早2018年小英總統在出席生技展的時候公開的這樣說生技醫療產品的研發是一條漫長的路不過政府責無旁貸我們希望能夠陪伴我們的企業迎接所有的挑戰那包括"},{"start":26038.159,"end":26054.58,"text":"總統在2022年他每一年去參加生技展每一年都會講要推動生技要推動再生醫療包括院長您在今年出席工商早餐會的時候也特別談到希望生醫成為下一座的護國神山對不對"},{"start":26056.684,"end":26067.213,"text":"院長我讓您看一下這個當然是我們賴清德總統的推動的健康台灣的政見當然也提到了精準醫療再生醫療甚至癌症的防治等等"},{"start":26069.556,"end":26093.497,"text":"這個是我們在臺灣對於再生醫療法推動的整個進程。2015年應該是臺灣最早接觸到再生醫療這個是因為八仙晨報的時候我們接受了日本捐贈的所謂的細胞自體細胞成片來醫治燒傷的病人所以這個是臺灣最早接觸到所謂的自體細胞產品2015年同年"},{"start":26094.358,"end":26118.74,"text":"有一個癌友叫Casper他在國發會的平台裡頭發起連署癌症免疫療法的修法的法案短短9天之內5000人復疫達標而我也是在2015年看到這個法案之後開始投入再生醫療投入細胞免疫療法的這樣的一個法案的研究當然一直到2018年我們通過了特管辦法"},{"start":26119.781,"end":26120.441,"text":"院長,請再看一下。"},{"start":26149.171,"end":26171.73,"text":"這個是目前臺灣雖然沒有通過再生醫療法但是我們有特管辦法18年通過的特管辦法這個是到目前為止衛福部合可的特管辦法所收治的案例我不知道部長您大概有沒有去做過統計這樣的一個特管辦法的審查每一個案例的審查時間"},{"start":26173.456,"end":26201.058,"text":"我初步剛剛算了一下每一個案例審查的時間大概要3個月到6個月不等而且case by case的審查這一家生技業者他所做出來的產品即使上一個案在某A醫院通過審查之後他在B醫院要做的時候他還是要重新送件再審查一次平均3到6個月我不知道有多少癌症的病人可以等這麼久的時間"},{"start":26204.773,"end":26220.289,"text":"再生醫療法不過臺灣很多的生技業者不管是在研發上面在推動上面甚至在跟國際合作的上面其實我們都會受到許多的限制院長我請您再看一下這個統計"},{"start":26223.217,"end":26245.309,"text":"我們衛福部有要求要從事再生醫療的醫療人員醫師人員必須接受這樣的一個教育訓練的課程可是您可以看到從107年也就是2018年的2099人報名參加一直到去年只剩下494人參加"},{"start":26249.338,"end":26277.711,"text":"是因為大家關心再生醫療嗎?不是反而因為我們的法令沒有過讓很多業者開始地下化因為無法可管無法可罰所以你沒有辦法去取締他你也沒有辦法去罰他甚至你也沒有辦法好好的認真的嚴格審查這些廠商的細胞製程的過程"},{"start":26278.865,"end":26301.626,"text":"到底合不合法到底合不合衛福部所有的GMP的規定對不對所以您同意我的這個看法這個是我大概擷取了幾個再生醫療的發展包括杜元坤教授做膝蓋軟骨細胞應該是臺灣的首屈一指包括現在我們不只"},{"start":26302.881,"end":26304.021,"text":"在政醫療法這個是大概是衛福部的版本"},{"start":26332.728,"end":26338.032,"text":"那我知道衛福部最近開始在辦說明會21號辦了一場28號也辦了一場這個說明會很詭異他沒有開放報名他是採用邀請制"},{"start":26347.426,"end":26372.769,"text":"部長您可不可以說明一下為什麼會是這樣處理跟委員報告目前再生醫療法現在是這樣子從這個上一次在立法院就插了林門一腳然後屆時不續審所以現在我們是跟行政院這邊討論的結果是我們不會退到衛福部來"},{"start":26374.165,"end":26398.105,"text":"所以會在行政院那邊繼續做一個審查就會送立法院這中間條文的部分並沒有太大的差異只有這個順序上面可能有一個調動因為過去在批評這個再生醫療法的誤解的情形就是以為是再生醫療不用人體試驗"},{"start":26399.775,"end":26413.999,"text":"但是這是錯的觀念所謂的再生醫療如果要變成常規化的話都一定要經過人體試驗除了有幾個條件之下的話才可以不用等人體試驗完成對就是這種情形"},{"start":26417.02,"end":26437.479,"text":"那這些因為這一個改變屬於說比較小的所以目前我們已經把新的調整過了這個版本送到縣政院那那個政委會再審查過一次就會送到立法院我想聽一下院長的看法因為我們"},{"start":26438.936,"end":26466.631,"text":"本席大概是對再生醫療比較關心的委員之一所以我其實很想知道就行政院的態度剛剛部長也講得很清楚但是我還是想從院長的口中裡頭去聽到到底行政院對於推動這樣的一個醫療方案對於推動台灣的醫療進程行政院有沒有信心有沒有願意很努力的來跟社會大眾甚至跟醫界跟某些不了解的人來進行溝通"},{"start":26467.271,"end":26489.018,"text":"對,在上個會期沒有通過就讓我很失望了但是我一直請衛福部應該再加緊然後在整個新的會期趕快送出來謝謝衛福部3月20日就送到行政院我會請政委趕快的再加速審查以後最起碼我相信在這一兩個月的時間內我們就送出"},{"start":26497.731,"end":26508.524,"text":"我其實也很期待520之前能夠趕快通過甚至不要等到520我覺得越快通過越好啦我真的覺得就是說很多的癌症病患或者是說很多的台灣的病友"},{"start":26509.125,"end":26530.012,"text":"其實因切的期盼這樣的一個新的療法能夠讓他合法上市所以我相信包括立法院裡頭很多的醫界的委員包括王振旭委員包括蘇喬惠委員等等我們大家都願意的持續努力來推動趕快把這個再生醫療的雙法能夠來推動通過好院長那我接下來要請教這個是比較實事題"},{"start":26532.593,"end":26558.387,"text":"這個呢因為漲電價所以最近包括經濟部甚至包括行政院被批評的很多這個是經濟部的圖卡他說用電比較多的麵包店呢你可以改選時間電價一個月可以省一萬七那這個時間電價經濟部或者是台電沒有告訴大家的是你要用時間電價你必須先去安裝智慧電表院長這您知道吧"},{"start":26559.548,"end":26581.194,"text":"你要安裝智慧電表還沒那麼簡單來院長給你看一下齁臺電的網站上面告訴大家智慧電表是逐年分批部件你不能主動去申請除非是用電大戶或者是你的住家有再生能源併網才可以所以很多人現在"},{"start":26581.954,"end":26604.872,"text":"來﹗"},{"start":26606.064,"end":26618.8,"text":"這個可能部長您還要再上來這個是我今天早上請衛福部幫我整理了一下部立醫院裡頭有安裝智慧電表的"},{"start":26620.435,"end":26622.096,"text":"來我再給您看這是高雄市的醫療院所裝置智慧電表的情況"},{"start":26644.932,"end":26662.649,"text":"高雄市的市立醫院、高一大輔社醫院甚至國軍總醫院都沒有安裝智慧電表所以他們根本也沒有辦法申請所謂的時間電價也沒有辦法能夠更有更多的節電措施"},{"start":26663.61,"end":26678.587,"text":"院長這個就是我要說的我們在講說電價漲了對於醫療院所的負擔是沉重的但是有沒有可能衛福部你們先去盤點這些醫療院所到底有哪些連智慧電表都沒裝"},{"start":26680.359,"end":26708.241,"text":"是不是能夠push他們或者是我們責成臺電要求臺電跨部會合作讓智慧電表早日把所有的醫療院所全部普及有沒有可能我想我們讓衛福部跟經濟部一起努力這個應該盤點不是太困難因為經濟部一定有data然後衛福部這邊有醫院的名單match一下大概就可以有了我想請他們跨部會來做"},{"start":26709.09,"end":26720.243,"text":"當然我們在談到要不要補貼醫院或者是醫院要不要動漲電費我覺得安裝智慧電表這件事情就是第一步所以是不是能夠請衛福部也能夠加速"},{"start":26721.524,"end":26742.571,"text":"至少你先盤點這一塊,好不好?那因為我接下來剩下不到一分鐘的時間我想就這最後的50秒我還是要謝謝陳建仁院長您帶領的團隊在這一段時間以來我相信對台灣做了非常多的貢獻跟努力我們還是要謝謝您"},{"start":26743.491,"end":26772.35,"text":"那今天是最後一次對您的總質詢那我想也非常感謝您過去一段時間的努力也希望未來不管陳院長您在哪一個崗位上是不是也能夠一起繼續守護台灣不只守護台灣的健康也守護台灣的經濟守護台灣的永續發展好不好謝謝那我們幾位委員呢特別也準備了一束花要來送給陳建仁院長表達我們對您的祝福跟感謝謝謝"},{"start":26773.251,"end":26774.002,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26830.082,"end":26853.179,"text":"謝謝邱毅英委員的質詢。接下來,我們請登記第18位,啊,對不起,第17位紅委員申翰之質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。在接下來,我們請今天登記第18號鄭委員正前質詢。"},{"start":26864.729,"end":26867.314,"text":"謝謝主席,我要請一下陳院長再請陳院長備詢"},{"start":26874.202,"end":26890.516,"text":"院長好,這個會期有關於總質詢的問題,就是有很多的分分毛毛,那我本席剛好是最後一位,那我沒有花送給你,可是我希望520之後還能夠在這邊跟你質詢,好不好?這個有點困難首先我想問一個問題,就是"},{"start":26894.983,"end":26909.975,"text":"施連移工不斷的攀高,行政院束手無策。我本來一直在想說我這束手無策後面到底要加問號還是要加驚嘆號。我想請教院長,我們對於施連移工的問題有沒有解決的方法,要如何解決?"},{"start":26911.136,"end":26931.134,"text":"施電移工的問題的話政府確實是在COVID-19的這一段期間施電移工有增加那後來我們也努力的來查組這些施電移工那像在去年的話就有4萬多人我們有查出來那現在還有8萬多人那在這個部分我們會請勞動部還有我們的這個內政部跟"},{"start":26935.417,"end":26957.974,"text":"去年查到4萬多人,現在還有8萬多人,所以曾經高峰是10幾萬人嗎?去年是2.7萬,我剛才講的是比較長的。院長你看一下統計數字,從2019年一路過來,所以你的數字跟我數字顯然有點不太一樣,可是我這全部都是看勞動部官方網站上面的數字下來。"},{"start":26959.626,"end":26979.159,"text":"從2019年四萬八千多人一路到去年八萬六千五百二十三人那麼這麼多人的情況之下我先不講說你們之前讓他們能夠來自首有多少人這麼多人的情況之下的時候顯然已經讓我們的社會裡面政府輸、社會輸"},{"start":26980.66,"end":27005.475,"text":"连移工也輸出現一個三輸的一個情況那政府輸在哪裡整個政府的威信完全喪失掉因為他們整個失聯移工他們已經變成一個產業鏈有一條龍的狀態有失聯的移工他們透過一些非法的仲介找到一些非法的雇主他們就一路這樣下來過去十年啊等到他們"},{"start":27006.155,"end":27007.776,"text":"社會安全也受到很多的一個挑戰。我大概直接問一個問題來問院長這邊。"},{"start":27028.787,"end":27048.112,"text":"移工逃脫社會安全的保障這個問題也非常的具體因為我們現在除了看護工之外是沒有比照勞基法其他的部分都一律按照我們的勞基法、救福法那包括性別平等工作法、職災保障"},{"start":27048.832,"end":27055.017,"text":"那我想問一下院長,你知道目前我們逃逸的失聯外勞當中的時候,有多少人產生了下一代?"},{"start":27073.112,"end":27082.477,"text":"這個部分我們確實是有一些統計的數據那詳細的數字有沒有詳細的數字部長報告委員我們有統計20年來近20年來失聯移工所產生的他們所謂黑戶寶寶大概是3500多人3500多人是在所有的黑戶寶寶1.8萬人大概不到20%"},{"start":27100.311,"end":27110.85,"text":"這是你講的一個目前的數字因為有一個民間團體他們對於現在這麼多失聯移工的一個情況的時候他們直接講到一個數字"},{"start":27112.435,"end":27128.436,"text":"他們認為現在失聯移工裡頭女性有37192人按照到今年1月底為止這是勞動部的數字他們以三成來算的時候他們預計可能會有一萬多個這樣子的寶寶"},{"start":27129.477,"end":27155.727,"text":"那如果沒有好好處理的時候他們預計這個數據可能要再查證的那本席要特別提到的狀態是不管數字是三千多人還是他們預估的一萬多人對臺灣的社會都會產生很大的一個衝擊然後這個衝擊不是眼前的因為他們是人他們會長大他們會延續到後面很多很多的問題的產生所以本席對於這個部分"},{"start":27157.228,"end":27170.419,"text":"對於失聯移工的部分,院長這邊要怎麼樣能夠更有效的解決,讓這八萬五千多個失聯的移工能夠真正的被"},{"start":27172.14,"end":27192.32,"text":"納入正軌我們有沒有更具體的一個做法還是就放任他在社會當中流竄造成我們社會當中一個系統性的一個問題當然不會換人我們這個勞動局已經有一個對策我們真的是這三年的疫情造成111年的時候那增加了4萬多的"},{"start":27194.022,"end":27199.466,"text":"市長你講數據降下來的時候我就聽不太進去你之後再給我一個更詳細的一個數字因為我們的數字都是從整個勞動部那邊去查的"},{"start":27220.803,"end":27228.709,"text":"我接下來想要講的狀態是以目前這個狀況我覺得臺灣的代勞政策、移工政策顯然是出了一個問題我從兩個數字來跟你這邊特別講到"},{"start":27235.874,"end":27261.449,"text":"按照113年2月底的一個數字臺灣外勞總共有75萬6千多人這數字應該是對的嘛因為也是從你們的網站上面直接抓下來的狀態那麼其中呢對於產業移工跟社福移工裡面那麼產業移工裡面占大多數可是呢真正很缺工的營造業跟農牧漁業它的外勞人數很少所以很多的黑工"},{"start":27262.506,"end":27266.231,"text":"已經開放黑工會已經開放去年的時候建業開放了15000人民間的已經開放按照15000的部分目前還沒有內政部還沒有整個登記完"},{"start":27278.686,"end":27282.327,"text":"國土署今年1月公布營造業經濟概況調查在2022年台灣的營造業缺工人數高達48669人這是國土署的一個具體的數字所以我們目前"},{"start":27308.616,"end":27329.554,"text":"銀造業這個開放的狀態也不夠嗎?我再跟你們講一件事情,我在從新竹來,新竹當時很積極地在推就是保三二期,因為要給台積電更好的一個狀態,我們都非常的支持,可是你知道,當他們在趕工的時候,台灣在當地的一個銀造業的工人,工資"},{"start":27331.391,"end":27352.868,"text":"一天破萬,為什麼要趕工?然後因為台積電他很手法,全部都用臺灣的勞動力,所以我要講的狀態是,之後在產生的影響是附近很多的營造工人都缺工,缺得非常非常的嚴重,所以在當地的時候有些"},{"start":27354.892,"end":27369.885,"text":"好跑的一些外勞他們就往這邊去流動那我要講的是在臺灣的這個營造業產那個產業當中的時候他們很習慣用點工的方式所以當我們提供出來的兩個要件5到10人"},{"start":27370.325,"end":27375.728,"text":"我希望能夠更接地氣至少在這個部分勞動部跟內政部這邊有要解決營造業的問題可是沒有完全解決"},{"start":27392.037,"end":27410.975,"text":"所以我希望勞動部這邊能夠跟內政部這邊再重新去檢討一下對於整個營造業的移工政策是不是能夠再加以調整因為我們這個整個民間營造業移工的開放是工程會邀集"},{"start":27411.856,"end":27418.383,"text":"內政部、移屆署、包括勞動部、相關部會我們一起討論出來的方案他這個部會現在移工已經已經1萬5他登記我知道還沒有滿但是我覺得這個政策都會滾動性檢討這個剛上路那如果有問題我想我們跨部會都會"},{"start":27431.595,"end":27453.668,"text":"所以他是可能持續檢討,然後可能更符合就是基層業者他們的需求嘛,對不對?我們會跨部會,因為現在剛上路,那我的意思是說剛登記人還沒進來,那以後沒有用你就說這個政策不行。因為他們目前很多人反映的狀態是,因為他們是用遠度的方式,他們並沒有直接拼用。"},{"start":27456.892,"end":27462.199,"text":"因為這是他們產業的特性,典工的情況非常的多,所以本席希望我們能夠更接地氣。"},{"start":27471.591,"end":27487.63,"text":"然後這一些政策正在實施過程當中那你剛才講的這一些逃逸勞工呢實際上在這一些正式的勞工進來以後呢慢慢的他們會被淘汰掉或者被取代掉了那這一個部分"},{"start":27489.931,"end":27499.375,"text":"議員長他們沒有對取代票,他們的數字一直累積,從2019年4萬多到2023年8萬多,成長了快要一倍啊,你知道嗎?剛才就講過了嘛,這是疫情的時間,移工進不來,而且"},{"start":27505.277,"end":27530.411,"text":"是有這樣的一個困難。所以你說這些八萬多人都是你們統計能夠追蹤的了的嗎?之後我再給本席更清楚的知道,因為我們看到的數字完全不是如此。那麼另外一個跟移工有關的部分我要特別提到的就是有關於農業的部分,農漁民的部分,他們有一個外展農業漁工。我們目前開放3000個人嘛,對不對?進來1980人嘛,對不對?我們給農業部已經一萬二。"},{"start":27535.094,"end":27555.069,"text":"我不要人數一萬二,但是他進來多少人可能… 農業部這邊齁,他們常態性的缺工是1.2萬人次啦。在因為農業還有很強的季節性,他們在季節性強的時候,超過20.1萬的人次是缺工的。那麼我這邊的數字到目前為止,至少農業部給本席的資料是他們目前齁,"},{"start":27557.09,"end":27577.063,"text":"開放的外展農務人士是三千人,進來的是一千九百八十人,跟你講的一萬多人數字是不一樣的。一萬二是我給他們的額度,那我們現在知道農業移工事實上農業部這邊已經和了兩千多人,我講的是外展的移工。"},{"start":27577.984,"end":27600.456,"text":"外展農業移工不是農業移工啊,你們這兩個名詞裡都沒辦法釐清嗎?外展農業移工不是農業的移工。給他回答一下,外展的部分是3000人啊。外展的部分是3000人。對嘛,所以我講外展3000人我就特別講外展的部分。那這個部分因為他們有季節性,所以本席也特別希望說,針對這樣的外展的"},{"start":27602.677,"end":27603.358,"text":"委員這個目前的法規是不行的"},{"start":27617.774,"end":27637.355,"text":"這個是我在這邊質詢的原因,我希望院長這邊是不是能夠召集農業部、勞動部、內政部跟衛福部,能夠稍微針對這個部分去做一個討論,好不好?解決一個方式,否則你開放出來的外展農業移工3000個,他們都用不滿啊,因為不知道怎麼用進來,用進來他們沒有辦法給他足夠的工資。"},{"start":27639.057,"end":27655.308,"text":"現在的很重要的情形就是說每一個人都有他的專業嘛,那你現在說外產的這個農業員工要到民建業,他們是不是有可能去營造業做一些非技術性的工作,非技術性的工作?"},{"start":27658.09,"end":27659.47,"text":"議員長,你現在講滾動檢討,我也希望你滾動檢討一下。"},{"start":27683.237,"end":27697.526,"text":"就是針對掛號費這個問題,因為3月4日開始,那宣部長有特別提到說,那個3月8日有特別提到說我們公立醫院不會漲價,是不是有這樣的一個承諾?"},{"start":27699.167,"end":27714.312,"text":"現在他們有統計你聽部長講一下你的擔心實際上是有點過濾到目前為止我們掌握的資料是有漲價在我們那個公告之後有漲價的醫療院所包括醫院跟診所一共是57家"},{"start":27715.888,"end":27735.343,"text":"我們持續還在監測當中是來那個部長因為時間有限就是說因為剛開始3月份才剛開始現在才3月中旬而已所以還沒有完全漲上來可是部長之前有承諾就是說公立院不漲能夠持續多久不漲"},{"start":27736.765,"end":27757.467,"text":"我想一年大概可以了。一年內不漲,一年之後可能就會漲。我要特別提到是說,因為這個外號被取消上線的這個部分的時候,其實已經嚴重的影響到了很多醫生他們擔心當公立醫院不漲的情況之下的時候,那區域診所長"},{"start":27758.248,"end":27759.809,"text":"好,謝謝政委員、政監的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告委員會"},{"start":27788.325,"end":27807.464,"text":"徒委員全級3月15日經濟組登記之質詢以書面提出。請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報。報院會本會期至2月20日起．對行政院院長施政方針及施政報告進行質詢。"},{"start":27809.369,"end":27835.972,"text":"已於今天詢答完畢。謝謝陳院長以及各位練習的部會首長。在質詢結束之前,我們請陳院長來說幾句話,好嗎?陳院長請。韓院長、各位委員先進、各位女士先生、大家午安、大家好。"},{"start":27837.519,"end":27865.638,"text":"第11屆第1會期對本院施政方針及施政報告的質詢在今天順利圓滿結束。在此我請向韓院長還有所有的委員在這一個會期給予我和整個行政團隊諸多的寶貴建議和指正以及所釋出來給我們的溫暖的感受。在此致上最深而且最誠摯的謝意也要再一次向本屆"},{"start":27866.614,"end":27891.501,"text":"順利當選的委員們再一次說聲恭賀和祝福。我從112年1月31日或蔡總統任命擔任行政院院長到現在都一直與行政團隊兢兢業業各所崗位全心全力從事扶國立民的工作一直未敢懈怠。在這個期間我要感謝全體國人"},{"start":27892.958,"end":27920.219,"text":"上下一心以及各位委員的專業問政提出各種務實的建議加速了貴我兩院合作推動各項攸關民生的重要設施還有重要的施政我在這裡特別致上我誠摯的謝意面對的全球快速變化的震驚局勢以及國內外各項嚴峻的挑戰民主臺灣始終走在正確的道路上不斷的"},{"start":27921.506,"end":27939.687,"text":"進步、成長、持續成為更溫暖、更堅韌、也更富強的國家。未來行政團隊一定會持續與貴院來通力合作以最大的努力來建設國家、服務全體人民、共同打造一個讓國人安居樂業的幸福家園。"},{"start":27940.914,"end":27967.798,"text":"隨著本會期總質詢的結束,貴院將展開進行各項法案的審查。有關本院所提的113年度附屬單位預算、新人交通安全設施條例、電子簽章法、海洋保育法以及全國性公民投票不在籍投票法等草案,也在這裡懇請委員們大力支持優先審議,希望我們齊心推動這一些法案。"},{"start":27968.567,"end":27984.722,"text":"最後我要再一次感謝各位委員對本院施政提供的寶貴意見也謝謝貴院所有工作同仁及媒體朋友在這一段期間的辛勞再祝福大家身心靈健康平安喜樂家庭美滿萬事如意謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":28001.738,"end":28023.683,"text":"再次謝謝陳建仁陳院長也要再謝謝各位各部會首長先來做以下的決定一、將各委員發言記錄及書面質詢含送行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆二、以提出之書面質詢尚未登載公報者一律補刊"},{"start":28025.436,"end":28045.464,"text":"現在我們繼續處理復議案第一案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團針對第5次會議報告事項第228案之決定提出復議請公決案現做以下之決定另定其處理二、第二案由民進黨黨團針對第5次會議報告事項第10案"},{"start":28049.264,"end":28066.607,"text":"第11案、第108案之決定提出復議請公決案。現作以下決定令定期處理。報告委員會本次會議進行到此為止。現在散會。非常感謝大家。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}