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會移到地方去但是我們相對的其實當初當初裡面有11%是屬於省政府的業務那事前並沒有相對跟著移走所以這個部分就會影響到對阿所以你聽清楚我的問題再回答嘛我就去說過去的5年每一年的地方的政府"},{"start":243.735,"end":263.932,"text":"他的財政總數都是Plus啦從119億到648億那長期的債務也從5.56降到3.69個百分點也降了很多啦等於是降掉降到五分之二啦剩下原來的五分之三啦財政狀況一直在好轉"},{"start":265.475,"end":288.38,"text":"那我舉個例子某個縣市今年連續5年財政都是正的結算之後都是正的這個時候如果市權不增加突然之間要給他很多錢那他要怎麼辦我也不知道這個政府要怎麼辦啊因為市權如果沒有增加他拿到那麼多錢他要花到哪裡去啊"},{"start":289.211,"end":317.054,"text":"因為以我們來出估就是如果說他用我們統籌統籌分配稅和一般縣市補助下去他自己自有的財源都不用用他自己的財源就會多出來那多出來這個部分沒有相關的事權下去去分配那包括全民健保還有包括老農津貼這相關的經過現在都是中央但是這涉及到修訂要修正相關的一個法規這個包括那個地質法包括那個"},{"start":317.734,"end":345.854,"text":"所以我一再在這邊講說錢跟權事跟要做的事跟你要用的錢要整體考量而不是光只有考慮於錢那事情大家沒有分配那這個時候你突然之間增加那麼多錢你也不知道要怎麼用啊因為我們這個不是說我可以把它拿到銀行去存那個概念不能夠用個人的理財來看一個政府"},{"start":346.889,"end":347.169,"text":"主席陳審計長"},{"start":360.646,"end":380.794,"text":"我看你的那個結算報告各個縣市的財政狀況最糟糕的還是苗栗縣對縣市來講對啦縣市啦他不但這個長期就一年以上的非自償債務所謂的我們現在講的償債是207億他甚至為了要去"},{"start":383.124,"end":402.762,"text":"復合那個規範一年以下的就是未滿一年的這個債務所謂的短債他有143億實際上短債這麼多是匪夷所思的因為他的短債就比他的幾乎要跟他一年之間的縣政府的預算要相同那現在總統常債短債加起來350億這樣算是財政有改善了嗎"},{"start":407.539,"end":435.7,"text":"他最慘的時候最低迷的時候是400多億所以400幾億差不多102年的400是改善了一些但是進度很慢而且離目標還很遠是不是離目標還很遠離那個要行政院的財政控管還有一段距離行政院控管他的財政那你們審計部對這樣的事情有什麼樣的看法到底什麼時候他才能夠正常"},{"start":436.485,"end":465.552,"text":"因為像處理這個我以前像這種有時候都出來的特別統籌會不會可以稅款下去的時候有時候中央有時候要主定他還債中央指引還債會員他就會很窮他就跟你講說我年中獎金發不出來我什麼東西弄不出來那個公關工程的那個到期款我都付不出來啊等於我們要支付轉給我們行政專案還要替他付勒"},{"start":466.172,"end":493.875,"text":"那個特別統籌的時候是另外增加出來的有時候財政狀況好的時候像說稅收增加的時候實際收入數比預算數增加很多的時候類似我們今年其實每一年的年底這幾年都一樣都還會有一條特別的錢給這些縣市政府這個時候你建議要強制他還債這個錢因為他有欠人那麼債還有超過那個法定債限所以像這種的就要給他還債"},{"start":494.716,"end":516.609,"text":"那這有沒有法律的依據?這個審計案下公示的時候就要遭其壓我們下那個健保欠債的時候我們下公示的時候先完健保好那我相信主計長在這邊他也有聽到這個建議當然這是審計部的意見再來也不是只有苗栗市的宜蘭縣的城鎮任控看起來也很不行"},{"start":517.729,"end":537.925,"text":"他已經從管住現在已經我們的審計處有通知他說你有現金你有負債你把它還了後來現在他已經脫離這個債限管住可是你知道嗎他一年以上的這個自然債務的餘額他現在常債就是109億短債還有70億對他數還算總共183億遠超過他一年的預算"},{"start":545.342,"end":564.044,"text":"對阿這個我們也還在繼續管控阿那我們會給我們的宜蘭縣審計處阿看到有機會的時候就要他還債那我在這邊很多年都一直跟你講苗栗縣他非正式編制員工的那一些約聘僱還有工友技工什麼東西用太多那個部分的管控怎麼樣呢"},{"start":564.685,"end":589.786,"text":"那個是現在1000多人有增加100多人但是我們查了以後是因為那是都是增加社工人力社會安全網的人力我們是中央主定他要增加所以相對中央要下去的時候可能要叫他一併檢討也不要說一下子增加這麼多當然這個是要慢慢檢討但是以前就是已經提了非常多年了"},{"start":590.246,"end":610.454,"text":"他以前就一再的被指出他這個你剛剛講說中央要他加的那個不算在這個編制內那個算是他合法的編制內頭我講的是合法編制外的還一大堆啊一千多人所以這一部分也拜託你們審計審計單位也要注意這個事情啊要不斷的提醒他他差不多每人都給他審計意見"},{"start":612.27,"end":622.33,"text":"給他審計意見他如果不參考也沒有用所以是請監察院來調查一下我們會把這個案子呈報監察院好 謝謝你喔 加油喔好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":240,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時41分）主席，麻煩請財政部國庫署陳署長。"],["主席：國庫署陳署長。"],["陳署長柏誠：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：署長好。我看了今天財政部的報告，裡面有寫到近5年（108年度至112年度）整體地方政府財政收支決算審定數均有賸餘，是總數賸餘嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：總數賸餘。"],["吳委員秉叡：有沒有個別縣市比較特別的？"],["陳署長柏誠：應該有一、兩個縣市是減少，金門跟桃園是虧損。"],["吳委員秉叡：什麼？"],["陳署長柏誠：有短絀。"],["吳委員秉叡：總數是賸餘，怎麼樣的縣市會短絀？"],["陳署長柏誠：金門跟桃園。"],["吳委員秉叡：金門的財政狀況這麼好，它也在短絀？"],["陳署長柏誠：金門、桃園大概都是近幾年他們一些公共建設的支出項目比較多。"],["吳委員秉叡：金門的公共建設？還是金門的社會福利高於其他縣市？"],["陳署長柏誠：這個我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：你不清楚。"],["陳署長柏誠：對，因為支出面的細項，我們比較沒有……"],["吳委員秉叡：因為統計的數字是整體的。"],["陳署長柏誠：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：這五年來有119億到608億元之間的賸餘。"],["陳署長柏誠：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，整體地方政府長期債務比率，由103年，103年其實是11年前，然後到112年就是整個10年間，它負債的占比從5.56%降到3.69%，所以得出結論就是地方財政狀況已有改善。那我就要問一個問題，每一年都賸餘，如果沒有要多做什麼事，現在他們的財政收支劃分法一口氣從中央要拿那麼多錢去是要幹什麼？就已經賸餘了啊！就已經有賸餘了，有賸餘還要多拿六千多億，每一個縣市分一分，如果你事權沒有下放，光拿這個錢去是要幹什麼？如果目前的事權沒有改變的話。"],["陳署長柏誠：對，目前大概就是去降低它的……"],["吳委員秉叡：好，你請回座，因為我想這個應該由政務官來回答，請主計長。"],["陳署長柏誠：謝謝，"],["主席：主計長。"],["吳委員秉叡：主計長，你剛有聽到？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這五年來總體平均有一百多億到六百多億之間的盈餘，當然這麼多的縣市，少數因為公共建設支出比較多，一、兩個縣市有minus，其他都是plus，連續五年都這樣，我剛剛的問題，如果事權沒有下放，現在依照統籌分配稅款的這些版本，要多拿六千多億去是要幹什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再補充說明一下，這個部分如果六千多億分下去，因為它又指定補助一般縣市2,501億要維持嘛，這樣就有將近九千多億要下放到地方，這個部分我們會談到的就是，其實這樣總數會達到21%，會把財源的21%移到地方去，但是其實當初裡面有11%是屬於省政府的業務，事權並沒有相對跟著移走，所以這個部分就會影響到很多部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊，所以你聽清楚我的問題再回答嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我就是說過去的5年，每年地方政府的財政總數都是plus，從119億到648億，長期的債務也從5.56降到3.69個百分點，也降了很多了，等於是降了五分之二，剩下原來的五分之三，財政狀況一直在好轉。我舉一個例子，某個縣市連續5年財政結算之後都是正的，這個時候如果事權不增加，突然之間要給他很多錢，那它要怎麼辦？我也不知道這個政府要怎麼辦，因為事權如果沒有增加，它拿到那麼多錢，它要花到哪裡去啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為以我們來粗估，如果用統籌分配稅和一般縣市補助，它自己自有的財源都不用使用，這樣它自己的財源就會多出來，多出來的這個部分如果沒有相關的事權分配下去，包括全民健保、老農津貼，這些相關金額現在都是由中央負擔，但是這涉及到要修正相關的法規，包括地制法"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我一再在這邊講說，錢跟權，要做的事跟要用的錢是要整體考量的，而不是光只有考慮錢，事情大家沒有分配，這個時候突然之間增加那麼多錢，你也不知道怎麼用啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為這個不是說可以把它拿到銀行去存的概念，不能夠用個人的理財來看一個政府。好，先請你回座。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：請陳審計長。"],["主席：審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：我看你各個縣市的結算報告，財政狀況最糟糕的還是苗栗縣。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，以縣市來講。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，縣市啦，它不但一年以上的非自償債務，也就是所謂的長債是207億，它甚至為了要符合規範，未滿一年的債務，也就是所謂的短債有143億，事實上短債這麼多實在是匪夷所思，因為它的短債幾乎跟它一年之間的縣政府預算相同。現在長債、短債加起來總共是350億，這樣算是財政有改善了嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它最慘的時候、最低迷的時候是四百多億，102年差不多是四百零幾億，現在是改善了一些，但是進度很慢……"],["吳委員秉叡：而且離目標還很遠，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：離目標很遠，離行政院的財政控管還有一段距離，行政院控管它的財政。"],["吳委員秉叡：你們審計部對這樣的事情有什麼樣的看法？到底什麼時候它才能夠正常？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：以前像這種情況，有時候多出來的特別統籌分配稅款下去的時候，中央有時候要指定它還債。"],["吳委員秉叡：中央指定要還債，問題它就是很窮啊！它就跟你講說年終獎金發不出來啊、它什麼東西弄不出來啊，公共工程的到期款都付不出來啊，等於我們還要支付轉給，中央還要替他替他付耶！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：特別統籌是另外增加出來的，有時候財政狀況好的時候……"],["吳委員秉叡：像是……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：稅收增加的時候。"],["吳委員秉叡：實際收入數比預算數增加很多的時候，類似我們今年的狀況，其實這幾年都一樣，都還會有一條特別的錢給這些縣市政府，這個時候你建議要強制它還債？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個錢，因為它有欠這個債，還有超過法定債限，所以像這種的就要它還債。"],["吳委員秉叡：這有沒有法律的依據，還是行政院可以要求它？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：行政院下公示的時候就要……早期健保欠債的時候，我們就下公示說先還健保。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。主計長有在這邊，我相信他也有聽到這個建議，當然這是審計部的意見。","再來也不是只有苗栗縣，宜蘭縣的財政狀況看起來也很不行啊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它已經從管制……我們的審計處有通知它說，你有現金、你有負債，你把它還了，現在它就已經脫離債限管制。"],["吳委員秉叡：可是你知道嗎？它一年以上的非自償債務餘額，長債就是109億，短債也有74億，總共183億，遠超過它一年的預算啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這個我們也還在繼續管控，我們會請宜蘭縣審計處有機會的時候就要它還債。"],["吳委員秉叡：我在這邊很多年，都一直跟你講，苗栗縣非正式編制員工的約聘僱還有工友、技工等等用太多，那個部分的管控怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在是一千多人，有增加一百多人，但是我們查了以後，那都是增加社工人力、社會安全網的人力，是中央指定它要增加，所以相對中央要下去的時候，可能要叫它一併檢討，也不要說一下子增加這麼多。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然啊！當然這是要慢慢檢討，但是以前已經提了非常多年了，它以前就一再地被指出……你剛剛講說中央要它加的那個不算在這個編制內，算是它合法編制內的，我講的是合法編制外的還一大堆啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一千多人，我們有注意到這個部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊，所以也拜託你們審計單位也要注意這個事情，要不斷地提醒他啊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，差不多每年都給它審計意見。"],["吳委員秉叡：給它審計意見，它如果不參考也沒有用。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那我們會來……"],["吳委員秉叡：是不是請監察院來調查一下？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會把這個案子呈報監察院。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你，加油，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡委員。","接著我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}