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對不對我們審查的過程會很慎重但是審查的這個過程不會公開委員會討論不會公開要做到公平嘛 對不對是會公平讓民眾後來要知道整個狀況嘛"},{"start":62.978,"end":76.207,"text":"你剛剛特別提到你已經開四屆的這個公聽會是不是?我們的大大小小的北中南東都有在開那個委員講說太少這是一個第二個我要問你你開了公聽會我怎麼接到一個通知"},{"start":77.568,"end":78.128,"text":"王立達他們幾個學者之外"},{"start":108.248,"end":124.678,"text":"你這派厲害關係人公會代表沒有找啊還有潛在的跟委員說明我們的程式是這樣徵詢意見就有不管是外送公會或是餐飲界那慢慢我們已經進入審查程序我們那個潛在的競爭者"},{"start":126.041,"end":151.937,"text":"有可能會經營平台業務的潛在的競爭者我們也要聽他的意見因為我們在審查對競爭的影響就要包括說有可能跟他競爭的人所以我們的層次是從外面到裡面內部專家在競爭法關係的影響會一起做討論所以這邊的開會是有外送平台市場競爭跟結合的這個管制現在外面開始有點緊張因為當然他是一個閉門的嘛"},{"start":154.198,"end":179.616,"text":"第一個閉門他現在開始外面一直在傳了啦就是說有沒有公平的問題然後第二個看起來是有可能以前聽起來是沒有過機會比較大嘛現在看起來又可能用附帶結議過用附帶結議過然後現在他們的要求是這麼那麼清楚第一個你既然是閉門的到時候這個會議紀錄要進去檢驗這是一個喔第二個更重要的阿你找平台來開會阿那我剛剛講的消費者代表球消息會阿"},{"start":181.716,"end":185.599,"text":"的公會代表是不是另外應該也要開一場這個閉門的這個座談會?開過會都有書面請他們正式表達意見你開公開的公聽會之後你要開的先你要辦一個座談會那你為什麼只有平台呢?你應該對"},{"start":196.962,"end":201.084,"text":"對這個消費者阿對那個外送員公會應該要辦一場阿不是嗎?"},{"start":201.084,"end":225.454,"text":"因為這些都有開過阿那是公聽會阿你這一場最特別就是因為是座談會是關門的阿這其實是這樣齁我們在程序上也有一些專家齁那有潛在競爭的我們分不同的不同的這個在產業上的不同的關係好不好 四位我明確要求那把這個不要辦成座談會開成公聽會讓大家可以公開你進行你進行催"},{"start":229.876,"end":246.747,"text":"有些學者我們也尊重學者他在表達意見的時候他希望能夠就是說在表達的時候我們在開會的時候不同的場次不同的人會有我們台灣民眾黨也開了公聽會學者都來了學者的講話當然是經得起檢驗所以現在問題不在學者啦你現在為什麼只有找這個"},{"start":253.271,"end":280.459,"text":"找這些平臺呢?這一些平臺是潛在的可能競爭者他們是不同的這個在整個餐飲外送平臺扮演不同的這個利害關係注意所以第一個要嘛就把這個座談會公開這些事情啊等一下你如果是直接找一個平臺你就是我剛剛講的公會然後這個消極會這是我們消費者這個代表你要在另外再開一場好不好"},{"start":282.68,"end":308.828,"text":"二選一 把這個公開發言委員 你說學者 學者經就去考驗嘛 對不對發言委員 我們的審查期間30天那我們這段時間半年來我們對於各方的意見其實都掌握了那我們也網路徵詢意見了我們應該是開始要好好來審這個案件如果繼續開公聽會 那我知道不是公聽會 不是公聽會 我要你把座談會"},{"start":309.468,"end":312.211,"text":"所以你能不能增加一場利害關係人的可行性的會議是座談會可不可以"},{"start":332.287,"end":351.071,"text":"現在只有二選一嘛 要嘛這個會公開嘛 對不對第二個是公平嘛 對不對 可以嗎那個委員就是說 厲害關心人會議最主要是那個外送公會 公會我們開過非常多的會議 而且他們都有來那個是公聽會 這個是第一次的座談會嘛所以我要求你兩個 你把這個座談會變成公開的這樣平等了 對不對第二個你如果要特別再開一個座談會"},{"start":362.013,"end":364.454,"text":"社會網路創新中心人家做了3117份超過八成的外送人"},{"start":390.285,"end":402.058,"text":"外送員沒有能力跟Uber E爭取更好的工作條件Uber E會利用他獨大的地位減少外送員的這個酬勞第三個欠缺競爭的狀況之下"},{"start":404.431,"end":407.814,"text":"這次的案子裡面有一個非常重要的你有沒有去注意到國外的外送平台的抽成的這個比例"},{"start":426.377,"end":432.822,"text":"你看一下美國大部分的州只有抽15%日本24.9%到26.4%韓國庫盤跟我們庫盤抽多少9.8%可是我們臺灣的吳某義提供35%普遍打提供32%到39%會不會太高"},{"start":447.548,"end":467.996,"text":"這個有沒有影響到你在審這個案子的時候能不能在消費者的這個角度多幫消費者一點那個抽成的高低是市場機制但是如果因為談判地位不平等利用自己這個談判強的這個地位去做不當的這個限制這我們會去處理公平會給人家長久注意公平會這段時間給人家的這個評價是四平八穩"},{"start":473.638,"end":494.541,"text":"保守友誼,開創不足。你說這你要很積極性的,你說為了消費者的潛力你要更積極的去注意這個事情,好不好?你要做這個審查的時候這個事情要很注意。好,現在碰到的是最重要的,消費者的這個潛力。消費者現在面臨的很多地方,第一個他要付這個平台使用費用,對不對?"},{"start":496.055,"end":524.013,"text":"第二個業者他本來被外送平台抽繩那個錢也有可能轉嫁到這邊來阿還有外送員這個錢阿 外送費阿所以會出現這個狀況來 再看一下我們平常去買 我們如果到店家去買例如說一個便當差不多一百塊對不對如果你變過來如果越來拖拉 這個整個那個毒戰越來越嚴重搞不好也會出現這個狀況喔一個便當去買是一百塊結果呢業者要抽繩要轉嫁搞不好多了35塊"},{"start":525.37,"end":547.336,"text":"然後呢外送費又要可能要多50塊錢外送平台又要抽10塊錢一個平台就差不多是兩倍的價格出來喔所以這個案子這次請要特別特別的慎重好不好好來我最後要做一個結論齁第一個最重要為了要保護到消費者跟外送員跟餐廳的這個權益所以最理想還是要提一個專法台灣民眾黨已經提出了專法"},{"start":549.431,"end":572.206,"text":"那我請政府行政部門也要想一想要提專法這個方向去做第二個在外送員的這個外送費以後應該訂一個地板價要去保障他們好不好他們真的是比較弱勢的可是相對餐廳的業者要訂一個合理的天花板價第三然後呢平台更要訂這個天花板價這三個都非常重要"},{"start":572.546,"end":594.675,"text":"那除了外送費、平台服務費跟抽成這個轉嫁的價格之外外送平台以後不能夠用任何名義再疊加或者加取我們這個費用了好不好請主委特別注意一下另外最後就是我剛提的你回去之後你再討論一下既然你加開了一次的公聽會四場之後你又加開了一場座談會又要把它變成是公開的那沒有的話利害關係人"},{"start":596.434,"end":603.255,"text":"消極會消費者潛力的這個保障團體公會業者是不是應該再加開一場座談會請回去好好討論一下好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時51分）多謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。大家都在關心這次的合併案，你剛剛有特別講到這個過程一定會公正跟公開嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們審查的過程會很慎重，但是審查的過程不會公開，委員會討論不會公開。"],["張委員啓楷：你說要做到公平嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，會公平。"],["張委員啓楷：而且要透明化，讓民眾後來能知道整個狀況嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：會知道我們審理的結果。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛你特別提到已經開過4場公聽會了，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們大大小小、北中南東都有在開……"],["張委員啓楷：4場，剛剛已經有委員講說太少，這是一個。第二個，我要問你，你說開了公聽會，但我怎麼接到一個通知是你們下個禮拜三要開一個座談會？"],["李主任委員鎂：我跟委員報告，我們的程序是這樣的，先向各界徵詢意見，在這些意見徵詢之後，我們會有個跨機關或者學者專家會議，就比較是內部會議。外面的意見徵詢差不多了……"],["張委員啓楷：這個引起很多人注意喔，這個會，第一個，是個閉門會嘛，不是公聽會而是座談會，對不對？第二個……"],["李主任委員鎂：這是類似諮詢會議……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，主委，你現在找的人都是平臺耶，除了學者之外，王立達他們幾個學者之外，利害關係人、工會代表也沒有找啊，消費者代表……"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們的層次是這樣，徵詢意見就有不管是外送工會或是餐飲界，慢慢我們已經進入審查程序，對於潛在的競爭者，有可能會經營平臺業務的潛在競爭者，我們也要聽他們的意見，因為我們在審查對競爭的影響，就要包括有可能跟它競爭的人，所以我們的層次是從外面到裡面，內部專家就競爭法關係的影響會一起做討論。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，這次的開會事由是「外送平臺市場競爭與結合管制」座談會，現在外面開始有些緊張，第一個，因為這是一個閉門會議嘛，現在開始外面一直在傳了，就是說有沒有公平的問題？第二個，以前聽起來是不會通過的機會比較大，現在看起來可能會用附帶決議通過。","現在他們的要求是這麼清楚：第一個，既然是閉門會議，到時候這個會議紀錄要禁得起檢驗，這是一個。第二個更重要的，你找平臺來開會啊，那我剛剛講的消費者代表，像是消基會，還有工會代表，是不是另外也要開一場閉門的座談會？"],["李主任委員鎂：這些都有開過會，都有書面請他們正式表達意見，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦，召開了公開的公聽會之後，你又開了先例要辦一個座談會，那為什麼只有平臺？對消費者及外送員工會也應該要辦一場，不是嗎？這樣才公平啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這些都有開過了。"],["張委員啓楷：那是公聽會啊，你這一場最特別就是因為是座談會，而且是關門的！"],["李主任委員鎂：這個其實是這樣的，我們在程序上也有一些專家，也有潛在的競爭者，我們會就產業上不同的關係來做會議……"],["張委員啓楷：這樣好不好，主委，我明確要求……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們絕對是公平的啦！"],["張委員啓楷：這個不要辦座談會，開公聽會，讓大家可以公開來參加，你之前找消基會、找工會都是公開的，為什麼這場要關門？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為有一些學者，我們也尊重學者，他在表達意見的時候，他希望在表達的時候，我們在開會的時候，不同的場次、不同的人會有……"],["張委員啓楷：我們台灣民眾黨也開了公聽會，學者都來了，學者講話當然是禁得起檢驗。沒有，主委，現在問題不在學者啦，你為什麼只有找這些平臺呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：這一些平臺是潛在的可能競爭者，他們在整個餐飲外送平臺扮演不同的利害關係。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，所以第一個，要嘛就把這個座談會公開，這是一種方式；第二個，你如果只有找平臺，就是我剛剛講，工會、消基會、消費者代表，針對這些你要另外再開一場啦，好不好？二選一，把這個公開……"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你說學者，學者禁得起考驗嘛，對不對？第二個……"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員，我們的審查期間是30天，在這一段時間、這半年來，我們對於各方的意見其實都掌握了，我們也在網路徵詢意見，我們應該開始要好好來審這個案件，如果繼續開公聽會，我知道……"],["張委員啓楷：不是公聽會，我要你把座談會……"],["李主任委員鎂：不管它的形式是公聽會或座談會，這些都是作為我們審查時候的一個參考依據，如果我們再繼續開不同的，不管是內部會議或者是非公開會義……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你能不能增加一場利害關係人的可行性會議，是座談會，可不可以？現在只有二選一嘛，要嘛公開嘛，對不對？第二個是公平嘛，對不對？可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，利害關係人會議最主要是外送工會……"],["張委員啓楷：就是工會嘛！工會，還有消基會……"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們開過非常多的會……"],["張委員啓楷：那個是公聽會……"],["李主任委員鎂：而且他們都有來……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你還是沒有轉過來，那是公聽會，而這個是第一次座談會嘛，所以我要求你兩個，你把這個座談會變成公開的，這樣平等了，對不對？第二個，你如果要特別開個座談會，那你就讓利害關係人也可以開個座談會嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會後斟酌一下，因為結合的審查期間是30天，也需要……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才有說你們做了民調，你說對外送員發出14萬份的調查回來了五百多份嘛，對不對？我給你更大的……"],["李主任委員鎂：六百多。"],["張委員啓楷：六百多？人家這邊有更多的……"],["李主任委員鎂：那個是市場……"],["張委員啓楷：你看一下，社會網絡創新中心做了3,117份問卷調查，超過八成的外送員怎麼說？外送員沒有能力跟Uber Eats爭取更好的工作條件、Uber Eats會利用其獨大的地位減少外送員的酬勞、欠缺競爭的狀況之下，Uber Eats會降低外送員的各項獎勵與補貼。你還在蒐集文件嘛，我給你更多的樣本。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這些資料我們有。"],["張委員啓楷：有喔？這個你們也會參考嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，在這次的案子裡面有一個非常重要的，你有沒有注意到國外外送平臺的抽成比率？你看一下，美國大部分的州只有抽15%，日本抽24.9%到26.4%，韓國抽9.8%，可是我們臺灣的Uber Eats抽35%，foodpanda抽32%到38%，會不會太高？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想抽成……"],["張委員啓楷：這個有沒有影響到你們在審這個案子的時候，能不能站在消費者的角度，多幫消費者一點？"],["李主任委員鎂：抽成的高低是市場機制，但是如果因為談判地位不平等，利用自己談判強的地位去做不當的限制，這個我們會去處理……"],["張委員啓楷：公平會給人家長久……"],["李主任委員鎂：但是單純的定價，我們基本上認為這是市場機制。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，公平會這段時間給人家的評價就是四平八穩啦，保守有餘開創不足，就是說你應該要很積極性的，為了消費者的權利，你要更積極的去注意這個事情，好不好？你在做審查的時候，這個事情要很注意。","現在碰到最重要的就是消費者的權利，消費者現在面臨的是，第一個，他要付平臺使用費用，對不對？第二個，業者本來被外送平臺抽成，那個錢也有可能轉嫁到這邊來啊，還有外送員的外送費，所以會不會出現一個狀況，我們看一下，我們平常如果到店家去買一個便當，差不多100塊，對不對？如果併購案通過，如果整個獨占越來越嚴重，搞不好以後會出現一個狀況喔，一個便當自己去買是100塊，結果業者要抽成又要轉嫁，搞不好多了35塊，然後外送費可能要多50塊錢，外送平臺又要抽10塊錢，一個便當就差不多是兩倍的價格出來了喔，所以這個案子在這次要特別特別慎重，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我最後做一個結論，第一個最重要，為了保護消費者、外送員跟餐廳的權益，最理想還是要提一個專法，我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了專法，我請政府行政部門也要想一想，朝著提專法的這個方向去做。第二個，對於外送員的外送費，以後應該訂一個地板價，要去保障他們，好不好？他們真的是比較弱勢的，可是相對的，對餐廳業者要訂一個合理的天花板價。第三個，平臺更要訂天花板價，這三個都非常重要。除了外送費、平臺服務費跟抽成費的轉嫁價格之外，外送平臺以後不能夠用任何名義向消費者疊加或加收費用了，好不好？請主委特別注意一下。","最後這一個就是我剛剛提到的，請你回去再討論一下，既然你在4場公聽會之後又加開了一場座談會，要不要把它變成公開的？沒有的話，利害關係人、消基會、消費者權益的保障團體及公會業者，是不是應該再加開一場座談會？請回去好好討論一下，謝謝。"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","陳超明","蔡易餘","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公\n平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}