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審計長我想請問你一下"},{"start":347.253,"end":363.677,"text":"這一個人事的這個部分要不要做一個全面性的一個檢討它的編制、原額還有實際聘用的原額那實際人力配置的原額有沒有合理化委員這個是一個要務實面對的一個問題現在好像總研的法是16萬人左右但是"},{"start":374.694,"end":380.678,"text":"實際也控制在十幾萬、十三萬人但是他的臨時人員有六萬人加起來就超過二十萬人所以他臨時人員加就往這邊走所以我的想法"},{"start":402.298,"end":417.148,"text":"那要不要好好檢討?要不要好好檢討嘛?好,我們會去查。好,那又要叫你寫報告了是不是?對,但是啊,我要多久?要不到人。要多久?要多久?你要寫那個可以執行的報告,你要不要寫痛不癢的啊?我不會!"},{"start":419.037,"end":445.409,"text":"我們出來都是...如果你寫的都不痛不癢那審計就不是在審計了你知道嗎對 我們會...好不好我們會記住以告好好好 那我再請主計長下來一下你稍微休息一下主計長時間先暫停一下主計長好 時間暫停來 來來來 那個主計長另外一個部分你知道那個...那個國民黨的這個財法法的部分讓我們經費都要大砍"},{"start":448.322,"end":450.718,"text":"你看這邊哪一個最有可能被砍的"},{"start":453.39,"end":478.988,"text":"因為我們現在目前也不知道說整個的一個需求要等到115年如果說實際在審查的時候才看那原則上因為你要為以籌謀啊是是是所以我們原則上現在有初步也跟各部會來我覺得讓你看一下體育經費好了你看我們這次台灣隊12強拿到世界冠軍情收的經費都起了很大的作用那個明年我們體育署編了44億那還有28億的國家體育建設"},{"start":483.291,"end":485.937,"text":"那如果照這個財法法通過的話那我們還會有這麼多錢嗎?"},{"start":488.868,"end":518.148,"text":"要對半砍要對半砍對如果按照國民黨這個版本的話體育補助都對半砍的話那我們還有機會拿到冠軍嗎?搞不好連這個這些球員的獎金都要對半喔原來700萬要變350嘛原則上都是這樣都會對半嘛所以球員獎金就會對半嘛所以說這個知識體大臺灣將來有沒有拿到冠軍啊跟這個預算有直接的關聯性嘛對不對"},{"start":520.889,"end":543.996,"text":"我就教你這個問題你們要點出來這個問題點很大有人在做禍國殃民的這個法案的時候你們真的要慎重遲遲的提醒因為這樣子的一個版本大概可能將來我們在預算編列是有很大的一個困難因為等於說大部分都要兌半減但是有一些相關很重要的部分剛剛的說體育建設"},{"start":545.716,"end":551.979,"text":"體育建設28億、剩下14億、體育署14億變12億、體育發展那球員的獎金7千萬就變3千5嘛而且相對的一個市權也沒有移轉像原來老人基金貼包括全民健保1074億市權沒有移轉老人基金貼還有這個國立高中職、老人基金貼、健保"},{"start":573.49,"end":597.836,"text":"都是我們在附大問題。都是大問題。好,那我就看一下嘛。你剛剛講的我就幫你做表做好了。是。債務複習嘛。金沈厚都是中央嘛。公共建設也是中央嘛。老農津貼嘛。還有直接補助縣市政府的。是。這裡頭有一個問題點。我必須說預算法第91條的時候大幅增加稅出稅入的時候要先徵詢行政院的意見。他們要先問你們的意見。"},{"start":599.059,"end":623.681,"text":"這是第一個嘛第二個如果萬一問題出現的時候是不是應該提案修正對不對這有沒有不曉得預算來源在哪裡還有預算法除了91條之外還有一個很重要以後如果真的給地方比較多的錢那地方的這個預算怎麼編怎麼用現在沒有直接的法令規範"},{"start":625.063,"end":648.513,"text":"有沒有沒有現在是用預算法而已對不對是可是預算法第96條的時候有一個地方政府預算應以法律定之現在有這個法律嗎沒有有一個地方他現在目前就只有一個地方制度法還有那個地方制度法是要修這長期本席的主當是不是也應該制定一個地方預算法"},{"start":657.374,"end":674.768,"text":"對目前我們是這樣子因為這個相關的預算的一個籌編的部分它是在地制法裡面有規範但是其他的部分我們在總預算中央總預算籌編的時候會對地方做一些的規範但是事實上是真的沒有在法律上做一個大臉的規範"},{"start":676.209,"end":694.02,"text":"如果毫無節制的任由他去使用這些預算的話那財政機率會更加的敗壞不是嗎所以我就問你嘛就96條的部分如果萬一有這個趨勢一直走下去的話畢竟立法院的生態就這樣子是不是應該制定一個地方預算法嗎"},{"start":695.344,"end":717.158,"text":"多層次的規範嘛你們思考一下好不好你們思考一下評估一下兩個禮拜給本席一個答覆應該用透過地方預算法根據預算法96條的部分來訂定來做一個規範規範地方政府預算怎麼用怎麼編可不可以"},{"start":718.538,"end":745.236,"text":"兩個禮拜你這個如果沒有編的話我現在想齁這個禍國殃民的法案齁如果通過的話真的後患無窮啊主席長我建議你最好要編啊因為地方制度法老師說齁什麼時候修法也不清楚他們就只是想要搶錢而已可是地方預算法如果讓他們毫無理智的通過地方預算法照至少一個一個規範因為以前的預算規範是在行政部門的內部監督嘛"},{"start":748.018,"end":748.399,"text":"主席主席國文"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時5分）謝謝主席，有請主計長跟審計長。"],["主席：好，主計長跟審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，前兩天主計總處有召開一個記者會，公布我們薪資的差距指標及中位數，高低薪資差距在2023年已經降到4.05倍，也就是自2012年以來降到了新低，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：某個程度就是我們的貧富差距似乎已經有緩和、改善，但是我個人一直認為這個薪資的指標非常的重要，你有沒有信心將來在2024之後差距低於4倍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，對於貧富的差距我們也一直都有在努力，所以政府很多的移轉支出也是讓它的差距再縮小，所以目前都是呈縮小的一個狀態來……"],["郭委員國文：對，本席要就教於您，因為前天卓院長有提到所謂的二上、一下、一平衡的數據，即經濟成長上、人均GDP上，然後失業率下，還有CPI一平衡，就是說在他心目中有4個指標其實是最關鍵的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：我建議是不是能夠二上、二下、一平衡，把中位數這個倍數的差距指標能夠降到4倍以下，主計總處能不能把這個列為你們接下來統計裡頭最重要的5個指標，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：第一個要跟主計長說明的就是這個，有一些相關指標其實非常重要，也讓院長知道一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["郭委員國文：還有一個貧富差距的指標是重要的，麻煩做一個轉達。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：那主計長稍作休息，我問一下審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：審計長，本席要就教於你，最近政府機關不論在中央跟地方，都收到許許多多的霸凌事件，本席在開完記者會之後就收到很多檢舉，特別是公部門。那我問你一下，審計部門到底有沒有察覺這個問題？你們有沒有做過類似的調查報告？從來都沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我向委員坦白一下，因為這個和財務上的關聯性不是那麼強，我們要查核的事項也還蠻多的，但是因為發現這個好像還蠻普遍的，所以我們會來就這個部分進行專案調查。"],["郭委員國文：你說專案調查，對，我還沒有問你，你就知道我要問什麼了，你算很聰明，也就是說，雖然在財務上沒有關聯性，但是財跟人有關聯，這是人的問題啊！對不對？人、財、事這三件事情都有關聯，人要依財去執行事情，不是嗎？那人出了問題的時候，跟你們審計有沒有關聯？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：以這樣的看法，應該就是有關聯。"],["郭委員國文：你知道嗎？對人事行政總處你要先去做一個審計調查，人事行政總處居然公布一個所謂的反霸凌的行政規範，在公布完之後就沒它的事了，任何一個單位有沒有做人事的相關指引？都沒有，它都不曉得，一問三不知。在記者會現場還跟法務部互踢皮球，真的是醜態百出啊！所以我覺得審計長應該要把這個列為一個很重要的重點。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會……"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候要提出報告？你不會等半年之後才提出吧？還是一年之後？你的報告什麼時候要提出來？最近在講霸凌防制專法，現在大家都如火如荼在推動……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為它有全面性的問題，有制度性的問題，我們一個月內提出來。"],["郭委員國文：一個月，好。對，要從制度、心態、文化各種方面切入。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["郭委員國文：另外還有一個部分也跟你們有相關，你知道最近的整個霸凌事件也有人講可能是跟人力有關聯，就是人力分配不足，那就牽涉到總員額法，我們的總員額法是在2000年的時候通過的，是25年前的產物，扣除掉有一次從十七萬三降到十六萬九的部分，又增加了司法人力1,100的部分，然後你又把公立醫院去除掉，目前要控管的人數大概是14萬，人事行政總處要控制14萬，可是這個總員額法是在25年前通過的，那時候是在流行小政府這種說法的情況底下所制定的，可是這幾年來凡事都希望政府多做一點，業務新增或者是虛擬世界對實體造成衝擊的業務也增加很多，在這種情況底下，結果在控管員額卻不斷的外包、控管員額卻不斷委外的情況底下，業務沒有少啊！審計長，我想請問一下，對人事的這個部分要不要做一個全面性的檢討，包括它的編制員額、實際聘用的員額還有實際人力配置的員額有沒有合理化？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，委員，這是一個要務實面對的問題。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在的總員額法是16萬人左右，但是實際上也控制在十幾萬……"],["郭委員國文：13萬而已啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：13萬人，但是它的臨時人員有6萬人，加起來就差不多20萬。"],["郭委員國文：變成19萬，所以這個總員額法在控制什麼啊？在控制什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以要務實面對，臨時人員增加啊！就是往這邊走。"],["郭委員國文：所以啊！不敷實際的需求嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！"],["郭委員國文：那要不要好好檢討嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們會去查。"],["郭委員國文：好，又要叫你寫報告了，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，但是我跟他說要不到人。"],["郭委員國文：要多久？要寫那個可以執行的報告，你不要寫那個不痛不癢的啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會，我們寫出來的都是有憑有據。"],["郭委員國文：如果你寫的都是不痛不癢的，那審計就不是在審計了，你知道嗎？好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們會據實以告。"],["郭委員國文：好，那我再請主計長上來一下，你稍微休息一下。主計長，你知道國民黨修正財劃法的部分讓我們很多經費都要大砍，你看這邊哪一個最有可能被砍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們目前也不知道整個的需求，要等到115年實際在審查的時候才看，原則上，因為以我們來講……"],["郭委員國文：你要未雨綢繆啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以我們原則上現在有初步也跟各部會來……"],["郭委員國文：我就讓你看一些體育經費好了，你看我們這次臺灣隊在12強賽拿到世界冠軍，情蒐的經費都起了很大的作用，明年我們體育署編了44億，那還有28億的國家體育建設，如果照這個財劃法的版本通過的話，那我們還會有這麼多錢嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要對半砍。"],["郭委員國文：要對半砍，對，如果按照國民黨這個版本的話，體育補助都對半砍了，那我們還有機會拿到冠軍嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，國防經費也是要對半砍。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！搞不好連這些球員的獎金都要對半，原來700萬，現在要變三百五嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上都是這樣。"],["郭委員國文：對，都會對半嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：球員的獎金就會對半，所以說這個茲事體大，臺灣將來有沒有拿到冠軍跟這個預算有直接的關聯性，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：我就教於你，這個問題你們要點出來啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：這個問題點很大啊！有人在做禍國殃民的法案時，你們真的要慎重並時時的提醒啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這樣子的一個版本可能將來我們在預算編列是有很大的困難，因為等於說大部分都要對半減。"],["郭委員國文：對，對半減啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：有一些很重要的相關部分……"],["郭委員國文：像剛剛說的體育建設，體育建設28億，剩下14億啊！體育署的體育發展從44億變12億，球員的獎金7,000萬就變三千五嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：而且相對的事權也沒有移轉，像原來的老農津貼，包括全民健保，1,047億都是我們……"],["郭委員國文：對，事權沒有移轉……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，還有包括國立高中職，還有省立的原來那些醫院都是我們在負擔。"],["郭委員國文：還有老農津貼、健保，都是大問題。好，那就看一下，你剛剛講的，我就幫你把表都做好了。債務付息，精省後都是中央，公共建設也是中央，老農津貼，還有直接補助縣市政府的。這裡頭有個問題點，我必須說預算法第九十一條規定，大幅增加歲出、歲入的時候要先徵詢行政院的意見，他們要先問你們的意見？這是第一個。第二個，萬一問題出現的時候，是不是應該提案修正？對不對？這有沒有？不曉得預算來源在哪裡。預算法除了第九十一條之外，還有一個很重要，以後如果真的給地方比較多的錢，地方的預算怎麼編、怎麼用，現在有沒有直接的法令規範？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["郭委員國文：現在是用預算法而已，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：可是預算法第九十六條有一個「地方政府預算，另以法律定之」，現在有這個法律嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["郭委員國文：有一個地方……"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前就只有一個地方制度法，還有……"],["郭委員國文：地方制度法是要修，這是本席長期的主張，是不是也應該再制訂一個地方預算法？對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：對不對？是不是？有不一樣的地方，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，目前我們是這樣子，因為相關預算的籌編是在地制法裡面有規範，但是其他的部分，我們在中央政府總預算籌編的時候，會對地方做一些的規範。事實上，真的沒有在法律上特別的規範。"],["郭委員國文：對，如果毫無節制地任由它使用這些預算的話，財政紀律會更加的敗壞，不是嗎？所以我就問你，就第九十六條，萬一有這個趨勢一直走下去的話，畢竟立法院的生態就這樣，是不是應該制定一個地方預算法來多層次的規範？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們再來研究。"],["郭委員國文：你們思考一下，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們會。"],["郭委員國文：你們思考一下、評估一下……"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員的意見，我們會納入研究。"],["郭委員國文：兩個禮拜答復本席，應該要用透過地方預算法，根據預算法第九十六條來訂定、做一個規範，規範地方政府預算怎麼用、怎麼編，兩個禮拜，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：這個如果沒有編的話，我在想這個禍國殃民的法案如果通過，真的後患無窮。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，我會建議你最好要編。因為地方制度法，老實說，什麼時候修法也不清楚，他們就只想要搶錢而已，可是如果讓他們毫無理智地通過，至少有一個地方預算法來規範。因為以前的預算規範是在行政部門的內部監督，中央可以規範他，將來是誰在監督這個預算？是地方的議會。地方議會如果沒有一個基本的法案來做依據、規範的話，變成地方政府要怎麼用就怎麼用，甚至地方議會跟地方政府一起用，甚至也有可能變肉桶，就是要有一個法來進行規範，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，謝謝。主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝國文。","接著，請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}