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審議長 那個審計的人力分配我先請教啊 主委長等一下喔審計的人力分配問題我想跟你們請教齁這個你們的工作包括監督預算啊 審定決算啊齁 這個齁那 你看你們的人力分配 你看嘉義澎湖金門齁 的這個人事齁 人力齁 你看"},{"start":168.439,"end":194.313,"text":"15個人澎湖13個人你看監督的預算數加一室500多億澎湖縣400多億金門縣700多億719億您看一下我們金門縣的人力你看我們的金門縣審計室的人力只有13個人我們省的這個預算監督的預算比澎湖比嘉義多很多啊意思是說我們在金門審計人力呢平均監督的預算數"},{"start":196.431,"end":196.671,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":213.979,"end":233.265,"text":"謝謝委員你去講到我都痛處我那個人力啊每個縣市都十幾個人不足人家一個坑所以啊我那個法律有給我法定下線我這些都沒有達到法定下線"},{"start":234.915,"end":254.126,"text":"阿所以阿我們都齁沒有人要做嗎沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有延額阿沒有延額阿沒有延額阿那你要主動爭取阿像在我們市民地區我就覺得非常好幫我們做決議喔我也去申請阿但是喔剛剛那個委員在講總延額法"},{"start":255.803,"end":269.691,"text":"人事總署人事總署不願意就對了是嗎他有總委員法限制啊所以他給我的每個人都會相安要所以你們能力研究不足嘛那你就不擔心人事總署不擔心那個審計單位發生可能會公務人員過勞啊這也算霸凌啊人事總署不擔心嗎"},{"start":273.833,"end":299.6,"text":"他因為有種顏落法的問題所以我會體諒他那你體諒他我們沒有辦法體諒你因為我們金門縣的園的太少一般都是希望審計人員略少二號沒有沒有我們的審計人員略少你回去研究一下我們金門縣為什麼會這麼少我是這樣啦這個我已經向人事總署因為大院有做決議希望我們能夠增加顏落給我們那我已經去了兩次公文"},{"start":300.38,"end":312.484,"text":"我會再去第三次要看看還有沒有要不要我們再開個專會來解決這個問題如果沒有的話人事總署有來啊副人事長請上來一下暫停一下請他上來有在這裡喔來人事行政總署副人事長"},{"start":327.932,"end":336.505,"text":"委員好副委員市長來請問一下萬一發生過勞罷了致死這算801種你們不用考慮這個情形嗎"},{"start":339.774,"end":363.391,"text":"這個人力怎麼運用如何管理各機關也要一點責任去投資分配你意思是說審計室的人力用得太浪費是不是是沒有啦我是說是沒有那為什麼立法院做的決議你們不做呢有啊那那個審計部有邀請證號他有報告然後呢那當然我們會有一些想要釐清的事情會請要多久勒"},{"start":364.38,"end":377.443,"text":"那就如果有要審計部釐清了那看審計部的回應的水準審計部沒有辦法釐清是吧審計部在那裡沒辦法釐清喔有啦他們會會那這公文已經去多久為什麼要去三次呢政府平行部門之間要這麼辛苦喔"},{"start":378.778,"end":395.695,"text":"這樣啦,因為我也諒解...我知道,你不然為難他啦,來他那個總研合法他要控管,所以剛剛有委員要希望調整總研合法應該怎麼做你們來告訴我們嘛,可以嗎?我們立法院會有做的決議,我們會希望不要再有這樣的情形發生嘛,好嗎?"},{"start":396.696,"end":396.916,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":416.329,"end":416.51,"text":"主席主席掌聲"},{"start":428.877,"end":449.626,"text":"我們金門的確也有我們金門的確也有說甚至我們有餘力的時候我們也是幫助金門醫院嘛不無力了對不對我們也補助金門醫院補助金門大學即便我們財政困難看在這些也是金門人在那邊念書金門人在那邊就醫我們還補助中央單位即便我們短處自己很多東西都做不了主計總處主任秘書上來主計長上廁所嘛洗手間那都是你問我啦"},{"start":453.067,"end":457.336,"text":"不然這樣子我問你好 問你之前主計對好 可以問你也可以 來來 主計長陳輝大都上來沒有關係"},{"start":465.874,"end":486.249,"text":"你知道這個離島我們有要求在公共建設部要加三層嘛沒問題嘛但是為什麼請問一下我們離島都不會跟別的縣市比我們都跟離島比你看一下澎湖金門連江同樣是離島縣為什麼我們的人口我們人口比澎湖還多我們14萬他10萬我們的這個"},{"start":488.991,"end":495.246,"text":"我們的土地差不多,比它還大。為什麼每一年的補助款都少澎湖這麼多?我想詢問主計長"},{"start":498.679,"end":518.494,"text":"我要跟委員說明因為在他是沒有收支差短本身我們會設置不是為什麼我們是差不多大的縣市而且我們都是離島是但是有一點我要特別跟委員報告因為我們自籌財源比較多不是你的低收入戶的人口我們會在差不多你只有我們125戶他199戶"},{"start":521.076,"end":541.505,"text":"沒有你只有他們的兩層沒有啦你注意看一下我們中地收入我們125他199對這個部分我們有算了就這個部分就是有關社會福利支出的一個部分為什麼差距是4倍我們賭注差4倍為什麼我們跟朋友你看人口各方差不多我們還比他多人"},{"start":542.205,"end":546.027,"text":"但我們中間收入戶比較少因為這個部分就是低收入戶的相關的我們125戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶�"},{"start":572.543,"end":594.068,"text":"你把資料提供給我,因為我們人口和那個都比他多嘛是是是來,地方的這個公務人員調薪的部分114年軍公交要調3%嘛,明年開始啦88年以來第25年來第二次調薪啦,首度連續第二次那我們這幾年你知道稅入和稅出我們也越來越辛苦了為什麼我們金門縣還是只是補助50%"},{"start":595.492,"end":618.163,"text":"因為我們現在目前就是針對比照113年度條新的一個原則就是它基本收入差短有差短的縣市補助50%沒有差短錢的補助意思就是說別的縣市因為比較沒有努力自籌財源我們很努力沒有差短我們省錢然後我們努力賺錢所以你來處罰我們那我們就是要自己出更多的錢"},{"start":619.283,"end":640.019,"text":"你不鼓勵這種很自己說我們盡量省錢不能做10億沒有因為我們籌不出3億10億的錢我們就不要了對不對我們就不要這個停車場你不鼓勵這種好學生努力向上的學生你就逼大家擺鬧嗎所以委員你的一個一般補助的一個成長是比"},{"start":642.54,"end":664.117,"text":"在排名是第三的是成長比澎湖還要高那還是跟不上吧我們什麼東西都要自己金門縣什麼東西都要自己出比較多沒錯吧自籌款也要比較多補助款又要比人家少然後接著我們還努力的除了自己的縣內的機構以後我們還努力的看中央單位縣立醫院、金門大學、國立單位我們還要幫忙他們"},{"start":668.82,"end":692.621,"text":"所以一般縣市補助的部分我們這麼的努力也跟中央一起的協力卻給我們這麼少的補助款主要是在調劑營需啦所以這個部分如果說自有財源比較高的部分在懲罰好學生的部分好學生有獎勵喔沒有啊我比那個還少這個部分你整個來幫我們我們這個討論很多次了好好的來檢討好不好我們的財力分析方面檢討謝謝委員長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":570,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時30分）謝謝主席，我們請審計長，還有金門縣的審計主任。"],["主席：好，審計長，還有我們金門縣審計室楊大陽主任。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：審計長，我是請金門縣主任站在這裡，但是我想你也很了解我們金門的情形，你知道我們金門……剛剛我聽到吳秉叡委員是說金門有很多什麼賸餘還是怎麼樣，為什麼還要多要錢？我想在這邊讓大家再更了解一下金門現在的財政情形，你知道金門縣去年曾經有爭取到一個停車場的補助費用，你如果不知道，請楊主任回答，有補助到一個停車場大概十幾億的補助，公路總局給我們的，是前兩年爭取到的補助費用，要做兩個停車場，一個在金城國中，一個在中正國小的地下室，可是因為我們必須要有自籌款，但是我們縣政府因為財政開始變困難，所以我們就把這9億、10億的費用退回給公路總局，您知道這件事嗎？審計長知道嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：知道、知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：楊主任知道嗎？是不是確實有這件事情？"],["楊主任大陽：知道、對。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們怎麼會不想做事，或是我們怎麼會說剩很多錢不想做呢？我們現在是因為不夠錢。審計長，你知道金門的歲入一年多少錢嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一百多億啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：一百多億，對不對？100億到130億嘛！你知道其中金門縣政府自己出了多少錢嗎？金門縣自籌多少，你知道嗎？一百多億裡頭，我們自籌一年自己出多少錢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：自籌44%……"],["陳委員玉珍：40、50啦！，我們一年都自籌40、50億，換句話說，我們的錢很多，應該在全國排名是前幾名吧？自籌的部分排名應該是在前幾名嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：在前面的。"],["陳委員玉珍：一定是在前幾名，我們當然現在沒有負債也是因為我們都懂得怎麼撙節開支，但是的確是財源越來越困難，所以我們現在才會有一些沒有辦法做的事情，我想請問主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳委員玉珍：我先把審計問完好了，主計長等一下。","審計長，有關審計的人力分配問題，我想跟你們請教，你們的工作包括監督預算、審定決算，有關你們的人力分配，像嘉義、澎湖、金門的人力，嘉義市15個人，澎湖縣13人，你看監督的預算數，嘉義市五百多億，澎湖縣四百多億，金門縣719億，你看一下，我們金門縣審計室的人力只有13個人，我們審的預算、監督的預算比澎湖、比嘉義多很多，意思是說，我們在金門的審計人力平均監督的預算數比較高，如果這種工作負擔差距這麼大，是不是整體人員的資源運用就不容易？更何況金門是離島，很多人說不定還不想過去，所以這個部分的制度上，你是不是應該考慮要怎麼調整才會有一個合理性？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，你講到我的痛處，我的人力，每個縣市都十幾個人，不足人家一個科。"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以，法律有給我法定下限，我這些都沒有達到法定下限，所以我們……現在社會上期許……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有人要做嗎？沒有人要做，還是怎樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有員額。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有員額？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有預算員額。"],["陳委員玉珍：你要主動爭取啊，像在我們金門我就覺得非常不公……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：大院幫我們做決議，我也去申請，但是剛剛有委員在講總員額法，人事總處……"],["陳委員玉珍：人事總處不願意就對了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它有總員額法的限制，所以它給我了，每個人都會向它要……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們人力嚴重不足嘛！你就不擔心、人事總處就不擔心審計單位可能會發生公務人員過勞？這也算霸凌啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有、倒也不會啦……"],["陳委員玉珍：人事總處就不擔心嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它因為有總員額法的問題，所以我也體諒它，它要管制……"],["陳委員玉珍：你體諒它，我們沒有辦法體諒你，因為我們金門縣員額太少。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般都是希望審計人員越少越好啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有、沒有，我們的審計人員太少，你回去研究一下我們金門縣為什麼這麼少。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我是這樣啦，這個我已經向人事總處反映，因為大院有作決議，希望能夠增加員額給我們，我已經去了兩次公文，我會再去第三次，看看有沒有……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，要不要我們再開個專案會議來解決這個問題？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果沒有的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：人事總處有來？副人事長，請上來一下，暫停一下，請他上來，副人事長有在這裡。"],["主席：人事行政總處副人事長。"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：副人事長，請問一下，萬一發生過勞致死，這算霸凌的一種，你們不用考慮這個情形嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：人力怎麼應用、如何管理，各機關也有一點責任去妥適運用……"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思是審計室的這個人力用得太浪費，是不是？"],["李副人事長秉洲：沒有啦，我是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：是沒有？為什麼立法院作的決議，你們不作呢？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有啊！審計部有要請增，它有報過來我們人事總處……"],["陳委員玉珍：然後呢？"],["李副人事長秉洲：當然我們有一些想要釐清的事情會請……"],["陳委員玉珍：要多久呢？"],["李副人事長秉洲：如果有要審計部釐清的，那看審計部回應的速度……"],["陳委員玉珍：審計部沒有辦法釐清，是不是？審計部在那裡，沒辦法釐清？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有啦，他們會釐清。"],["陳委員玉珍：這公文已經去多久，為什麼要去三次呢？政府平行部門之間要這麼辛苦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這樣啦，因為我諒解……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你不能為難它啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為總員額法，它要控管，所以剛剛有委員希望調整總員額法……"],["陳委員玉珍：應該怎麼做，你們來告訴我們嘛！可以嗎？我們立法院也會作決議，我們希望不要再有這樣情形發生，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是法律有給我法定下限的員額，我也要求不多……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們請主席……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們每個單位……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：每個單位，我都希望能……像金門……"],["陳委員玉珍：針對審計處審計人力的部分，我們請人事總處是不是一個月給我整個報告，可以吧？一個月，沒問題吧？好。","我們現在請主計長，所以審計長在這裡，針對金門的這個部分，我們的確沒有……"],["主席：主計長……"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道我們金門的確也有……甚至我們有餘力的時候，我們也是幫助金門醫院，不遺餘力，對不對？我們也補助金門醫院、補助金門大學，即便我們財政困難，看在這些也是金門人在那邊念書、在金門這邊就醫，我們還補助中央單位，即便我們短絀，自己有很多東西都做不了。"],["主席：主計總處主任秘書上來。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長去洗手間嗎？"],["主席：主計長上廁所，你總是要補上來啦。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒關係，你問我啦。"],["主席：不能這樣子。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我問你，問你也可以。主計長……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我等他……"],["陳委員玉珍：能回答的都上來，沒有關係。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：來了。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道離島有要求在公共建設的部分要加三成，沒問題嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒問題嘛。我們離島都不會跟別的縣市比，我們都跟離島比齁，你看一下，澎湖、金門、連江同樣是離島縣，我們的人口比澎湖還多，我們14萬，它10萬；我們的土地差不多，我也比它還大，為什麼每一年的補助款都輸澎湖這麼多，都少澎湖這麼多？我想請問主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員說明，因為它是沒有收支差短，本身我們會……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，為什麼？我們是差不多大的縣市，而且我們都是離島。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是有一點，我要特別跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我們自籌財源比較多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，你低收入戶的人口，我們會讓……"],["陳委員玉珍：差不多啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，你只有……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們125戶，它199戶。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，你只有他們的兩成。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啦，你注意看一下，中低收入戶我們125戶，它199戶。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分我們有算了，這個部分就是有關社會福利支出的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼差距是4倍？我們的補助差4倍，為什麼？我們跟澎湖，人口各方面都差不多，我們還比它多人，當然我們中低收入戶比較少。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這一個部分就是低收入戶相關的……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們是125戶，它199戶，差不多。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，澎湖是一萬九百多，你們是一千九百多，所以才占它的兩成。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，我們這裡面都有相關的數據，所以這個部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你把這些一般性補助款細項的補助額度的計算基礎給我們好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。我們再送給委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼我們的補助差他們這麼多，社會福利我們就差4倍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為低收入戶……"],["陳委員玉珍：你把資料提供給我，因為我們的人口和土地都比它多嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：再來，地方公務人員調薪的部分，114年軍公教要調3%，明年開始生效，是從88年迄今25年來首度連續2年調薪。你知道這幾年的歲入和歲出，我們也越來越辛苦了，為什麼我們金門現在還只是補助50%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們目前比照113年度調薪的原則，基本收入有差短的縣市補助50%，沒有差短的縣市全額補助。"],["陳委員玉珍：意思就是，別的縣市因為比較沒有努力自籌財源，我們很努力，沒有差短，我們省錢、努力賺錢，所以你來處罰我們，我們就是要自己出更多的錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不鼓勵這種自己說儘量省錢，因為我們籌不出3億、10億的錢，我們就不要，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們就不要這個停車場，縣政府就不要停車場。你不鼓勵這種好學生、努力向上的學生？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們鼓勵、我們鼓勵……"],["陳委員玉珍：你就逼大家擺爛嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，一般補助的縣市成長，你們在排名是第三，成長比澎湖還要高。"],["陳委員玉珍：但還是跟不上嘛！金門縣什麼東西都要自己出比較多，沒錯吧？自籌款也要比較多，補助款又比人家少，接著我們還努力了，除了自己縣內的機構以外，我們還努力看中央單位、縣立醫院、金門大學等國立單位，我們還要幫忙他們，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以一般縣市補助的部分主要……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們這麼努力，也跟中央一起協力，卻給我們這麼少的補助款。"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要是在調劑盈虛，所以這個部分，如果自有財源比較高的部分，在一般性……"],["陳委員玉珍：懲罰好學生？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好學生有獎勵，也有獎勵，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啊！你看我們比那個還少，這個部分，你整個來幫我們，我們討論這個很多次了，好好來檢討，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：有關我們的財力分級方面啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們也會一併檢討，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝主計長。"],["主席：謝謝玉珍委員。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}