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劉忠勇院長會計處 陳敬興處長大氣環境司 張順清司長水質保護司 王月斌司長環境保護司 蔡孟玉司長監測資訊司 謝炳輝司長綜合規劃司 吳佩瑜司長"},{"start":1942.065,"end":1952.972,"text":"秘書處劉婉玲處長、梁婉玲處長、人事處楊良彬處長、法治處林芬處長、統計處侯美玲處長、政風處王永福處長、行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員、廖玉琳專門委員。好。"},{"start":1968.379,"end":1977.785,"text":"那現在進行本日議程報告事項第二案處理113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案45案請一併宣讀。"},{"start":1980.376,"end":1995.346,"text":"報告事項第二案處理環境部含為中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結案書面報告45案其中第一案至第19案均屬第一項一、決議一、業務費向下委辦費預算凍結300萬元二、決議二、淨零綠生活轉型技術示範及推廣計畫預算凍結100萬元三、決議三、淨零排放科技之委辦費預算凍結50萬元"},{"start":2006.633,"end":2012.377,"text":"四、決議四、一般行政向下人事費預算凍結100萬元五、決議五、一般行政向下人員維持之獎金預算凍結100萬元六、決議六、綜合企劃及管制考核預算凍結100萬元七、決議七、政策規劃及考核預算凍結50萬元八、決議八、生活轉型環標管理預算凍結50萬元"},{"start":2027.648,"end":2038.493,"text":"九、決議九、生活轉型環標管理之一般事務費預算凍結50萬元。十、決議十、環境影響評估整合與管理預算凍結90萬元。十一、決議十一、環境影響評估整合與管理預算凍結90萬元。十二、決議十二、空氣品質保護及噪音管制預算凍結100萬元。十三、決議十三、移動空氣污染源防治之獎補出費預算凍結100萬元。"},{"start":2052.06,"end":2055.581,"text":"14、決議14、空氣品質保護及噪音管制預算凍結5萬元15、決議15、水質保護預算凍結200萬元16、決議16、水質保護向下水污染防止預算凍結50萬元17、決議17、環境監測資訊預算凍結100萬元"},{"start":2069.506,"end":2071.627,"text":"18、決議36政策規劃及考核預算凍結5%19、決議37環境資訊規劃及數位服務之資訊服務費預算凍結5%20、第二項決議1委辦費預算凍結100萬元21、第二項決議4氣候政策及國際交流中業務費預算凍結100萬元"},{"start":2089.577,"end":2097.119,"text":"二十二、第二項決議五、優質公測及美質環境推動計劃預算凍結100萬元。二十三、第三項決議一、淨零排放科技之違半費預算凍結200萬元。二十四、第三項決議二、資源循環及廢棄物管理預算凍結200萬元。二十五、第三項決議三、廢棄物管理之違半費預算凍結100萬元。二十六、第三項決議四、"},{"start":2112.222,"end":2119.986,"text":"支援循環及廢棄物管理向下循環處理預算凍結100萬元27、第三項決議9支援循環管理預算凍結100萬元28、第三項決議10支援循環及廢棄物管理預算凍結100萬元29、第四項決議1化學物質科學研究預算凍結100萬元30、第四項決議2化學物質科學研究之委辦費預算凍結50萬元31、第四項決議4化學物質管理業務預算凍結100萬元"},{"start":2141.597,"end":2158.017,"text":"三十二、第四項決議五、化學物質管理業務向下違班費預算凍結50萬元。三十三、第四項決議六、化學物質管理業務向下評估管理預算凍結50萬元。三十四、第四項決議八、化學物質管理業務向下危害控制預算凍結50萬元。"},{"start":2159.699,"end":2174.192,"text":"三十五第五項決議一環境管理預算凍結500萬元三十六第五項決議二環境管理預算凍結100萬元三十七第五項決議三環境管理預算凍結100萬元三十八第五項決議四環境管理預算凍結100萬元"},{"start":2176.014,"end":2183.585,"text":"39 第5項決議五環境管理預算凍結500萬元40 第5項決議六環境管理向下綜合業務管理預算凍結300萬元41 第5項決議七環境管理向下綜合業務管理之業務費預算凍結100萬元"},{"start":2191.016,"end":2216.354,"text":"四十二、第五項決議八、環境管理向下區域治理預算凍結一百萬元。四十三、第五項決議九、多元垃圾處理計畫第二期計畫預算凍結百分之一。四十四、第六項決議一、科技發展預算凍結一百萬元。四十五、第六項決議二、環境研究預算凍結二百萬元。宣讀完畢。有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案總共45案有沒有異議?"},{"start":2217.813,"end":2227.259,"text":"沒有好那做以下決定均同意動之並提報院會接下來請環境部薛部長就本日會議議程並案報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2238.113,"end":2264.104,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家早今天大宴第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸接下來就針對兩個部分來跟各位委員做報告第一個是邁向碳有價時代、碳費擬定時程表以及碳費審議委員會的相關內容"},{"start":2266.405,"end":2267.767,"text":"全世界有超過150個國家都把2050列為"},{"start":2283.166,"end":2290.61,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":2303.036,"end":2331.144,"text":"下一頁我想配合這個大家都熟知西本也就是歐盟他們是用ETS就是碳交易的方式那去年開始輸入到歐盟的一些產品也要去申報碳足跡之類的那他們大概是明年開始希望能夠這個西本來推動可是他有一個過渡的一個時期事實上我們在擬定攤位也是參考"},{"start":2332.245,"end":2350.305,"text":"這部分特別是對於所謂的碳洩漏換句話說是高排碳量假如歐盟有實施但是其他沒有國家沒有實施那歐盟的廠商就會移到其他國家這個概念基本上就碳洩漏那所以這個在我們在擬定碳位的時候也是非常重要參考的一個部分"},{"start":2353.005,"end":2377.751,"text":"目前我們也為了因應歐盟西邊的這個部分我們積極來推動這個國內的一個碳交易的制度包括去年8月7號碳權交易所在高雄成立那去年的12月22號國外的碳權已經也在碳交所來交易那各位可以看到大概今年國內的碳權也可以交易那環境部這邊就是因應這些來"},{"start":2379.411,"end":2395.128,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":2395.248,"end":2401.012,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":2413.66,"end":2430.981,"text":"議員會議員議員會議"},{"start":2431.121,"end":2431.402,"text":"議員提供解釋"},{"start":2449.004,"end":2474.161,"text":"這個是我們積極的來推動的部分包括氣候法、質法的訂定當然大家非常關心的就是昨天的碳會審議委員會開會的一個結論待會我也再跟各位來做報告我們事實上在推動這個碳會我們也必須考量到我們產業未來的國際的競爭力同時我們也要避免碳洩漏的這個風險"},{"start":2475.242,"end":2498.834,"text":"那我剛剛提到自主減量跟指定目標我們以2030年當作我們的一個目標的一個方向來請看下一頁那目前執法的部分我們已經有7個執法已經公告另外有一個執法是預告階段那跟碳會相關的4個執法目前草案都出來了那目前在走行政程序希望能夠盡快對外來做一個預告來下一頁"},{"start":2501.674,"end":2525.903,"text":"這個是我們在自主減量跟指定目標的這個部分也請委員來參考我們希望2030年可以達到我們24%的目標繼續往下看我們鼓勵企業去做自主減量這些有一些方式提供給各位委員來參考來下一頁目前福利審議委員會已經組成了他們已經召開過兩次的會議我們是不是看下一頁"},{"start":2531.735,"end":2534.257,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":2557.312,"end":2571.829,"text":"來審慎之後來決定整個的碳會的匯率那所以我想以上就是我們針對環境部在推動碳會及相關執法的一個進程的部分請各位委員參考那並給指教謝謝各位謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2578.84,"end":2607.815,"text":"有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員林月琴委員發言"},{"start":2616.384,"end":2637.42,"text":"主席好那有請我們的薛部長請薛部長林委好薛部長早早在上次我們在環境部業務報告的時候我就非常關心就是我們的碳費審議的那個進度當時我提到我們的碳費審議委員會"},{"start":2639.491,"end":2663.192,"text":"主陳要注意公民團體工商界跟學界比例那在名單公布後我看到環境部有顧及到各領域主陳比例還算幾個不過今天我要重點是要提醒的是未來環境部碳費審議那個金額確定前仍然還有很多工作是不能等的甚至有些正在發生所以環境部必須要去做處理"},{"start":2670.966,"end":2693.974,"text":"首先我們先看一下考古題這上次我問過了就是上次質詢的時候提出來說環境部在碳費徵收上是不是還是會增加2.5萬噸的扣除當時部長的回答是會交給委員會去決定所以想問部長請問一下目前這題有討論嗎討論進度為何委員會內部是不是有共識"},{"start":2695.144,"end":2712.938,"text":"給林委員報告事實上目前還沒有進入到實質的討論但是我們環境部內部的討論是覺得這2.5萬噸對於假如他沒有去享受包括碳洩漏的那個係數的那一部分他們是可以擁有這2.5萬噸"},{"start":2715.74,"end":2720.323,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":2736.793,"end":2752.931,"text":"因為真正落實減碳的目的因為為什麼因為台灣在我們的歐盟美國法規越來越嚴格的時候實在沒有等待機會所以我們本來就要加快腳步去補那個不足的地方這個你要去做考量"},{"start":2753.547,"end":2754.288,"text":"請問目前一樣討論進度為何?"},{"start":2768.551,"end":2786.551,"text":"給委員報告事實上這個我們在給委員的碳費審議委員會的委員的資料裡面大概都有這個部分會針對它碳洩漏的程度、風險性給予不同比例的一個折扣事實上這個我們草案是有啦"},{"start":2788.632,"end":2814.495,"text":"委員會好像也還沒討論到那個部分我們可能在下一次的這個會議裡面他們應該會為什麼因為新聞講說你的折扣非常非常的大這是環境部講所以當然我們會有些擔憂那事實上就沒辦法去改變甚至也沒辦法打標這個還是要去提醒我們的環境部不過大概更重要的是請下一頁"},{"start":2816.84,"end":2842.371,"text":"那上碳費就部長從新聞報導我們看碳費訂定工商界環境部跟環保團體對碳費的期待相差落差非常的大字面上看起來是一百三百五百字面上看起來不差很多可是對企業可能是幾百億的差異對國家基金的收入可能是上百億所以部長依照這個我們的碳費率審議會設置要點第8條所有"},{"start":2845.596,"end":2870.402,"text":"決議要出席委員過半數的同意才能夠決議出席委員正反意見同訴時由主席裁定之所以目前我們的碳費這個審議委員會的機制是過半數決定嗎還有當碳費現在目前就有三種意見就是不同的有100、300、500那如果大家意見分歧的時候你怎麼去決定那環境部一定是會讓"},{"start":2871.498,"end":2898.468,"text":"會議主席去參考委員意見最後決定還是會投票多數決?給委員報告,事實上這個大家以寒假的方式事實上並不適當所以昨天委員會的結議我事實上感到很欣慰他們就說請環境部提供更科學為基礎更客觀的條件讓委員可以去討論討論完以後他們也可能是決定不同的做法"},{"start":2898.928,"end":2923.979,"text":"那在由這個環境部來做整理的決議所以當然很多這個包括媒體記者可能也會說環境部本來是說3月底要公布這個碳會的費率可是林委員應該這個很瞭解這個情況我們要投票由委員去投票決定一個費率這種事情5分鐘就可以決定了但是我非常欣慰就是說我們委員非常理性非常"},{"start":2924.879,"end":2924.899,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":2953.926,"end":2970.149,"text":"至於這個什麼時候決定會議我想就請委員會他們多辛勞一下。可是因為影響非常的大,為什麼?因為當這沒有決定,因為我們電費要上漲的時候,如果碳費要徵收的話,物價就會引起很大的波動,這是對民眾實質有感的。"},{"start":2970.799,"end":2997.478,"text":"因為電費要漲每個家庭跟工商團體企業都會因為這個電費而產生增加成本3%到10%可碳費徵收呢那目前不確定100到500之間可是影響層面民生物質都會受到影響而且可是環境部一直沒有對外說明說那就會造成疑似有業者因為徵收碳費對於我們的消費者"},{"start":2998.052,"end":2998.752,"text":"〈漫天喊價〉"},{"start":3020.376,"end":3020.416,"text":"主席"},{"start":3038.646,"end":3044.249,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":3067.102,"end":3093.108,"text":"他從媒體又看到一些建商在對這些那是不是就造成一些困擾所以本來年輕人就已經是買不起房子在這一波這個講不清楚然後持續漫天喊價繼續惡化的話房市是不是會飆漲那年輕人更買不起房所以是不是應該要去做說明所以想問部長目前是不是有掌握一式碳費轟台房價物價狀況"},{"start":3094.108,"end":3121.951,"text":"事實上目前我們所了解都是在寒假階段那因為環境部對於包括這個營造商或者這個建設公司說房地產會漲15%到35%我們也新聞稿去這個駁斥所以是不是可以第一個確認我國收取的那個碳費跟國際接軌不要讓企業重複課稅不要在台灣收了碳費到國外的時候又再被收"},{"start":3122.898,"end":3140.59,"text":"再來就是防堵因徵收這惡意哄抬價格我覺得應該要有聯合稽查小組還有預防預期心理不要讓碳費徵收影響個別行業所以我覺得環境部要對外說明清楚以上謝謝好謝謝林委員的提醒好謝謝好謝謝林月琴委員接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":3154.352,"end":3182.397,"text":"主席早 官員早 各位同事早我請部長 請薛部長好 陳委員早好 部長今天各大報都是頭版啊去年第一季就說去年說今年的第一季會拍板所有的碳費費率啊還有執法公告等等的但我們現在第一季只剩下4天就要結束了"},{"start":3183.377,"end":3202.775,"text":"所以很多業者都非常的緊張因為上次我們討論這件事的時候電費還沒漲嘛是現在電費要漲碳費又不知道要收多少錢所以請問上次我們有建議您把CPI納入你們開會審議會的內容"},{"start":3204.377,"end":3228.314,"text":"有納入非常非常好是給委員給常委員報告我想這個是一個很好的機會也跟各位報告在碳費審議委員會還沒有成立之前環境部有對外的確來議告說希望在3月底能夠順利的討論出一個碳費的費率但是在審議會成立之後我想依照氣候法"},{"start":3229.314,"end":3256.166,"text":"會議的決定審議就是由委員會來進行所以也很抱歉跟我們當初的落差當然環境部以一個主責單位我們去做規劃是應當的那您昨天有討論到電費嗎有,事實上也把大宴所提的在上個禮拜的委員會有討論這個提案也轉交給我們委員會參考所以委員會才會認為說以其用含價的方式馬上投票決定費率"},{"start":3257.166,"end":3270.114,"text":"還不如請環境部提供更周全的資料很OK但是呢第一次開會開了三個小時結果你們的會議紀錄只有一頁啦上面是講到說我們要用科學的證據還有各國的數據這是委員建議的嘛"},{"start":3274.376,"end":3289.317,"text":"但你也當過教授有帶過研究生阿如果第一次開會還拿不出各國的狀況這樣不是也會被你罵吧因為第一次事實上主要目的是讓大家了解整個碳會委員會的責任"},{"start":3290.979,"end":3291.639,"text":"各國的數據都還沒有齊全"},{"start":3308.195,"end":3325.603,"text":"可是現在就像剛剛林委員質詢的一攬拉麵都漲價了290變310所以很多企業主他們真的也會緊張必須要把這些成本考量進去明年的預算沒有辦法編請問下一次第三次的審議會你們要討論什麼"},{"start":3328.838,"end":3328.998,"text":"主席"},{"start":3359.159,"end":3373.297,"text":"等指法。這個我覺得昭偉人真的太好了。去年昭偉就已經說我們要凍結因為沒有辦法完備碳定價相關法規配套可是今天我們還是在討論一樣的問題"},{"start":3377.378,"end":3395.682,"text":"這個我想等一下會有非常非常多的委員繼續追問您是否今天可以解凍但目前看起來去年解凍的原因去年凍結原因跟今天我們要討論的是沒有什麼太大的進步啦所以等一下也許很多委員還會陸續再問您吧"},{"start":3399.895,"end":3419.668,"text":"再來上次也有講到說因為我是不孕症醫師也是生殖醫師所以塑膠、塑料已經不只是污染環境的議題它更是一個健康的議題也被證實是影響我們現在不孕症居高不下的發生率所以未來呢"},{"start":3421.604,"end":3445.131,"text":"去兩年前有看到175個國家齊聚在肯亞開始談論這個重要的國際法案今年底會推出全球塑膠公約而且這是具有法律約束力的從生產到消費到整個週期的條約請問環境部現在有做什麼因應關於今年年底會發布全球塑膠公約來臨嗎?"},{"start":3447.612,"end":3461.065,"text":"給委員報告,事實上我們已經針對2024年在今年年底這個剛剛委員所提到塑膠公約會立法來完成大家朝向檢數人目標環境部資源循環促進法"},{"start":3461.946,"end":3489.184,"text":"也積極的在推動事實上我們的草案也已經預告了嘛吼那另外就是包括一次性的塑膠鹽頭減量我們來看對您提到一次性您提到一次性塑膠2018年李應元署長當時就推出了階段性的策略說2030年我們要全面禁用塑膠袋啊一次性的餐具飲料杯吸管等等"},{"start":3490.285,"end":3505.082,"text":"當時呢台灣非常的驕傲環保團體都表示肯定覺得我們政府終於做對事情了我們可能會成為全球第一個管制吸管國家的塑膠吸管的國家結果去年8月"},{"start":3505.663,"end":3518.186,"text":"我們突然把我們的目標變成手段說現進用不再是唯一的方向並且提出2050淨零轉型資源循環零廢棄關鍵戰略行動計畫非常長的一個計畫說我們現在中長期的推動重點是減少50%"},{"start":3528.708,"end":3554.258,"text":"請問這樣算不算是一個政策跳票?給委員報告事實上我們當然有一些理想期待去推動但是也因為台灣一些特殊的環境在推動上面也碰到一些阻力比如說當我們要減塑我們的傳統市場我們的癱瘓等等事實上也造成一些挑戰原因是我們也必須顧及到民生他"},{"start":3555.598,"end":3556.179,"text":"議員提供的檢測結果"},{"start":3583.471,"end":3609.412,"text":"上次我們提到的循環杯嘛這個只要是購物節部長你到超商就可以看到這樣子的畫面當然您規範在資本額一定金額以上的業者電商業者等都很好可是呢其實啊像這樣子在超商販賣有很多是大的平台上的小的店家比如說微電商等等"},{"start":3610.493,"end":3639.653,"text":"他們的交易量有時候雖然看起來不大但是整個加起來是很大的我在這邊也要提醒部長您是否應該要規範這些微電商在大平台上也要使用綠包裝呢?是,我想陳委員講到重點我基本上也請我們部內的同仁要去盤點整個這些包裝裡面材料包材的使用到底哪一部分佔最大宗事實上反而是中小"},{"start":3640.273,"end":3641.775,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":3663.136,"end":3689.475,"text":"再來我也很想問上次我們兩個討論循環杯網路已經有22.6萬人看了所以大家很關心你的後續循環杯的補助你補助了半年後來就沒有繼續補助請問原因為何呢我是不是請我們同仁來回答一下循環杯的補助的部分是那跟委員報告那是我們推動初期的這個示範那後來就用法令強制的方式來做"},{"start":3690.831,"end":3718.572,"text":"好 我們來看喔總共你補助的期間門市借杯有7家所以我們做出了26萬個循環杯花了1000多萬活動借杯0喔好 上次您給的業報啊這個循環杯它總共被借用是34.7萬借用喔除起來每個杯子才用一點多次欸這樣跟一次性的塑膠杯幾乎沒有什麼差別了欸嗯"},{"start":3722.185,"end":3750.507,"text":"這一點的確有挑戰跟委員報告那我們除了是說這個補助的那我們也有補助地方政府來做那像討論事他就是有在職棒或是我們在一些對所以我建議啦本席建議您應該把它改成封閉式的場域而不要繼續在流動性的場域使用循環杯而然後去比較一下這樣成效是不是很好是不是有變好那你再來決定是不是要繼續這個政策以免又像我們這樣不符合國外"},{"start":3752.451,"end":3754.302,"text":"這市場的塑膠袋用量非常多"},{"start":3755.424,"end":3783.764,"text":"所以這個就是您提到的當然你可能很難達到禁用但是我們至少要達到持平我們從2000年到現在2020年塑膠袋的用量是激增35%所以每個人每年平均用780個塑膠袋是比歐盟每年使用的198個多出4倍所以我們現在不但改變目標我們還快要放棄了嘛"},{"start":3785.137,"end":3806.826,"text":"對我想這個陳文你提供這個資訊也跟我剛剛講的一樣嘛就是說傳統市場的癱瘓這些使用的塑膠袋真的量太高太高了因為時間快到所以請您稍微看一下之前呢行政院有針對你用什麼單位作為標準提出審查意見覺得你們不應該再用一個一個"},{"start":3808.126,"end":3837.372,"text":"好本席在這邊做最後一張的建議經濟部其實呢源頭就有數據去顯示你塑膠袋內銷的量是多少那這個只是塑膠袋喔不包括你的吸管杯子等等的你從100年到112年就從14萬噸到20.8萬噸你從源頭其實源頭就是污染的開始了你從源頭就可以管理的話你後面就可以不用這麼累我這邊本席給部長最後一個建議"},{"start":3838.092,"end":3839.073,"text":"請劉建國委員發言有請部長"},{"start":3872.288,"end":3892.815,"text":"昨天有召開第二次的碳費審議會,有沒有什麼新的結論?新的結論就是委員他們覺得以其要用馬上用投票去決定一個費率覺得沒有考量到整個客觀的環境以及用科學為基礎"},{"start":3894.275,"end":3914.14,"text":"他們希望環境部可以提供包括日本、韓國、新加坡他們實施碳費的一個情況作為他們的參考那同時也希望我們把2030年的一個目標減碳的這個做法提供更詳細的一個資料他們再來做討論"},{"start":3915.811,"end":3917.592,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":3933.176,"end":3936.84,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":3954.889,"end":3956.895,"text":"這應該就包括製造業跟電力業。部長你看一下這個新聞。"},{"start":3964.673,"end":3990.985,"text":"律師通膨推升黃價5年內再飆15%這個調查攤會增加營建成本隱憂你怎麼看待這個事情事實上環境部已經在之前至少對不起我先請教一下他們有在第一波嗎對他們刻意在掀起這個不必要的恐慌那環境部也新聞稿去駁斥我們請中華經濟研究院以及其他研究單位幫我們估算了一下"},{"start":3991.405,"end":3995.93,"text":"大概是0.5%到1%左右0.5%到1%嘛 對不對他講15%嘛所以事實上是利用這個機會想要去這個長較我覺得部長講的不到1%嘛但是營業者講到15%嘛這叫誇大不實"},{"start":4008.567,"end":4026.983,"text":"這叫什麼?事實上大家都知道臺灣黃地產占的主要的原因是來自土地的成本事實上是最高的其他營建的成本才占大概30%左右所以不應該把所有的漲價都說因為碳費因為碳費到現在都還沒有實際收的"},{"start":4031.531,"end":4045.841,"text":"對嘛,所以這個司法招致性我們大家都很清楚不過我覺得公部門環境部還是內政部當然有對外做一些說明不過我覺得那個力道還是不大嘛所以如果按照你們的說法我們來改進"},{"start":4046.941,"end":4069.258,"text":"對,不到1%0到5到1%這中間他可以一次跟你講到15%差了15倍甚至差了30倍我覺得這種誇大不實的廣告讓台灣整個房價在這邊紛紛擾擾這麼多死的情況之下那現在又有碳費的這個徵收以他也不在第一波的碳費開支的對象現在就可以做這種事情"},{"start":4070.237,"end":4093.09,"text":"這真的是很離譜所以我還是請這個部長可以加大這個力道不要像我之前機車定檢會我們環境部的好意沒有讓人民從口袋掏出半毛錢甚至也搞到會讓立院的同事去誤會這個事情我覺得這樣就是很不好這是一件事情"},{"start":4094.96,"end":4106.876,"text":"目前來講你如果第一波啦齁在全國的這個加速應該是在472左右嘛加速啦比那個還多啦因為我們不只是比那個還多我們的數據應該是550左右喔550對因為我們是以"},{"start":4113.023,"end":4140.105,"text":"廠跟家宿兩個都算在一起的所以不是472是550嘛對不對不然472不管550反正都沒有現在的所謂的這個營建還有建築嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛因為你們這邊很清楚有提到說碳會影響粉泥土的成本增加約3.2嘛然後這鋼筋應該是2.8那如果以一般這個鋼筋粉泥土的建築額演平均是3%"},{"start":4141.666,"end":4154.553,"text":"應該是佔總營建成本的比例三成來計算的話,碳會對建築成本影響約為0.9,就像剛才部長講的說0.5到1嘛,就不大過1%嘛,對不對?對阿,事實上是這樣子。所以他這說我15%這實在是很離譜,很夭壽,我覺得不能放在這種業者在那邊漫天喊價啦,再度請部長加強這個力道。好,謝謝劉委員的提醒。"},{"start":4167.301,"end":4185.719,"text":"當我們還沒開始在徵收這個營建的碳的時候我們可以做哪些事情根據聯合國的環境規劃署統計建材及營造階段的碳排放只佔了26%有高達74%都是跟建築物的人員使用相關QER"},{"start":4188.661,"end":4197.664,"text":"所以聯合國的報告可以知道移動防止碳排不是要蓋的時候而是蓋好之後所產生的熱跟人員但是我這邊有一個數據要跟部長再討論台灣從民國89年開始推動這個綠建築標章累計到現在已經2月共通過4486案的綠建築的標章"},{"start":4211.869,"end":4241.058,"text":"但是公部門的建築有綠建築標章的2988將近3000件但民間的建案獲得標章只有1498不到公部門的這個建案的50%所以現在是只有公部門需要綠色標章民間都不需要了還是我知道這是內政部的業管但是站在結凍減碳的主管部門"},{"start":4243.081,"end":4269.662,"text":"委員報告事項是有一點相關也不是完全沒有關係因為我們在推動淨林立生活那其中有一個指標就是立建築以及節能這個建築的一個數目所以在未來環境部應該會在所謂的11住行12購這一塊在住的這部分我們會把立建築標章節能的標章納進去考量"},{"start":4270.662,"end":4285.391,"text":"對我是在提醒部長就跟剛才部長很OK啦就是也知道說這個不能完全跟環境部不能推卻於外對不對承擔起來那是不是跟內政部還好來看怎樣的一個溝通從89年到現在"},{"start":4288.113,"end":4304.13,"text":"將近14年的時間民間才1498公佈門來到快3000我覺得這種落差比例實在是太大了有努力的空間第三件事情再跟部長就教部長應該有到便利商店去買過東西吧"},{"start":4305.973,"end":4310.275,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":4327.183,"end":4351.049,"text":"這個電子花票事實上它是熱感應紙事實上是不利回收啦不可以回收嘛對最好是用數位就是直接在手機對APP載具嘛對對對應該鼓勵這樣子部長有掌握這個狀況嗎是大概了解你知道雲端這個花票比例現在是來到53但是還有47%的人他們還是拿到感應紙"},{"start":4352.63,"end":4375.007,"text":"然後我們現在即便這個載具或將花票存入信用卡但是各大賣場超商還是會將交易的明細或簽單印出來然後消費者不要才拿去丟其實變成怎樣是消費者拿去丟還是店家拿去丟而已就這樣的差別體積看起來你看這個我給你看一下"},{"start":4378.94,"end":4392.472,"text":"這是我們的感樂值,對不對?這是我們以前這種傳統的花票。你看這樣的一個體積、面積、物體大小。上面有明細,下面是花票,再來是廣告。"},{"start":4395.711,"end":4420.94,"text":"我想我們支援行環署來檢討一下如何跟這個財政部這邊來共同來合作減少使用這個感應紙因為它是讓對環境是不友善的不可回收就是就是讓消費者還是讓店家去丟掉對不對這個還可以回收嗎是不是這樣現在這樣的比例多少這樣比多少署長知道吧"},{"start":4429.91,"end":4449.72,"text":"我這邊是請我們環境部跟經濟部這邊好好的來做一個研議好不好是不是可以短期之內可以降低這樣的一個使用的比例因為畢竟我們也推了從107年到現在然後那綠色標章是從89年到現在所以一個要跟經濟部來溝通另外一個要跟財政部來溝通"},{"start":4450.38,"end":4473.735,"text":"還有這個誇大不實的這種假借碳排放的時候房價要飆升的事情要跟內政部來溝通我這三件事情是不是請部長是不是可以在短期內一個月內好不好我們有一些具體的溝通的一個方式未來推行的方式跟相關的一些進展可以給委員做參考吧好謝謝部長謝謝劉建國委員"},{"start":4478.749,"end":4506.498,"text":"主席有請部長。請薛部長。主席有請部長。請薛部長。主席有請部長。請薛部長。主席有請部長。請薛部長。主席有請部長。請薛部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主席有請部長。主�"},{"start":4508.166,"end":4528.873,"text":"昨天我們探會會議審議委員會他們有召開第二次的會議但是當然並沒有如環境部之前所期待的在第一季的結束前他們是希望說520之前能夠完成會議的審議可以嗎我想根據氣候法現在會議的審議基本上是"},{"start":4529.753,"end":4557.061,"text":"就交給委員會來決定但是我們環境部在推動整個碳會的執法並沒有停頓碳會的部分關於民眾比較想要知道的說他一旦實施了以後他的一般的生活開銷會增加多少的比例是我們也了解這一點所以事實上委員會他們的決定就是說必須要更審慎的來審視大概可以知道說一般的生活的一個花費會增加多少的比例"},{"start":4559.582,"end":4581.997,"text":"對 這個給盧委員報告事實上在上個禮拜的委員會在這邊有一個提案就是說希望環境部可以轉達這個大宴希望CPI指數能夠在未來決定碳費費率的參考大概我們一般民眾的負擔會是多少如果一天的生活下來"},{"start":4583.36,"end":4611.889,"text":"事實上跟一般的民眾生活碳位的徵收應該影響不會很大因為它最主要是企業特別是排碳大戶他們的確會影響很大那現在很多執法的進度都落後你覺得是什麼原因事實上這個進度落後只要能夠讓這個執法更周全應該明年不是就要實施了嗎不是明年就要實施了嗎"},{"start":4613.278,"end":4629.011,"text":"呃明年對所以我們當然是思考是說啊是不是在整個法制面都完善之後才開始像在查那個網路的時候你大概下一頁看一下大概就是未公告就是待發布那這樣子那個present是不是太高了一點"},{"start":4630.003,"end":4658.232,"text":"事實上也還好我們希望今年開增那當然原本是期待理想性是從1月1號開始起算當然假如我們匯率審議委員會覺得從這個7月競爭的角度因為看那個連結點就看一下已發布的其實是占少數反而是未公告跟待發布的比較多所以會讓人家覺得說你這樣明年要實施會不會來得及"},{"start":4661.51,"end":4689.438,"text":"給委員報告事實上7號法裡面我們事實上是有12個執法這裡面是法條的部分那12個執法我在這邊給委員報告7個已經這個公布了嘛那有一個是依告現在在進行依告階段所以事實上是剩下4個跟碳費相關的執法還沒有依告那其中4個裡面的3個也已經完成草案現在在走行政程序"},{"start":4689.958,"end":4692.46,"text":"公總有三個缺失跟四點建議,我們大概看一下。"},{"start":4709.835,"end":4710.936,"text":"非公正轉型的看法如何?"},{"start":4724.229,"end":4752.591,"text":"公總在前一陣子一直在媒體上有談到他們的觀點我們尊重啦台灣是一個多元的社會嘛那各個團體因為大部分的民眾還是不了解還是會從媒體來看事實上他是站在公總企業的角度來看但是我們也有環團有他們的不同的看法所以給盧委員報告事實上我們的碳費費利審議委員會21個委員裡面吼真的涵蓋蠻多元的所以當我們把委員"},{"start":4753.131,"end":4755.482,"text":"所以他所謂的沒有進口產品碳標籤這個以後會有還是"},{"start":4757.975,"end":4785.436,"text":"這個在某個程度事實上是有企業提到希望台灣採取所謂的CBAN的概念就是說比如說我舉一個例子我們國內有一些產業他的確在過去在減碳這塊做得非常好他們的碳足跡事實上是比國外相同的產品低很多那他就認為說我們不應該只有在台灣這樣子實施碳匯針對進口的相同的產品也要刻意"},{"start":4786.156,"end":4786.897,"text":"臺灣也有用電爐在煉鋼的也有用一貫電鋼廠"},{"start":4812.856,"end":4816.199,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":4829.432,"end":4854.573,"text":"是,你理解齁,還有四個建議你看一下,就是說台灣版的CBAM,然後該跟標竿子掛鉤,所以我們沒有標竿子,然後2050年能夠提早公告它的電力排放係數這樣,你大概的想法怎麼樣?是,謝謝盧委員的建議,事實上這幾個議題我們環境部都有在考量,都有納進去考量。你可以就第一點來講嗎?"},{"start":4856.638,"end":4877.93,"text":"因為第一點還包括牽涉到其他部會因為歐盟為什麼會採取CBAN因為他們已經很早就這個ETS就是說碳排放的交易所以對企業他很容易去買到碳憑證但是台灣的碳權交易所事實上去年8月7號才成立我們到目前為止還沒有國內的碳權"},{"start":4878.911,"end":4883.778,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":4896.114,"end":4914.382,"text":"請主委了解,不是說臺灣不推西北。接下來就是關於原住民的問題了,我們還是希望能夠有原住民的聲音,雖然現在沒有把我們原住民納入專家學者或者是說民間團體代表裡面,可是希望能夠"},{"start":4915.382,"end":4937.397,"text":"如果說你說這兩年可能沒有辦法,或者說能不能有現行的措施來補救沒有原住民代表這件事情。好,給盧文報告,這個我們來研究啦。當然我們整個碳濾機制未來更成熟,包括自然碳濾進來之後,那自然碳濾可能跟森林相關。大概研究了一下切後邊圈因應法,它已經有納入原住民的一些條文。"},{"start":4940.077,"end":4962.582,"text":"第三條有公正轉型第五條在知情同意第八條是主管機關的部分那第33條我們看一下就是他大概只第三三個第12項他說協助中央目的事業主管機關執行公正轉型相關工作事項就結束了我們希望後面能夠加上這個且以嚴峻民主或離島地區為優先補助對象"},{"start":4963.717,"end":4964.258,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4983.198,"end":4983.518,"text":"接下來請陳昭芝委員發言。"},{"start":5011.693,"end":5015.198,"text":"還是有請學部長?請學部長。學部長辛苦。你好。部長我想先請教您幾個問題。您知道歐盟今年開始要申報碳管稅。2026年要正式課稅。"},{"start":5028.331,"end":5045.584,"text":"事實上不只今年事實上大從去年10月份就開始了解就是我連續幾個問題也許部長就告訴我說是不是知道了解那部長知道美國中國也各自在建構他們自己的碳關稅標準美國甚至在2030的課徵標準是比歐盟還高喔"},{"start":5046.585,"end":5072.179,"text":"部長也瞭解這個狀況嗎?我瞭解事實上在去年美國還提出一個CCA的法案不過跟前委員報告CCA法案到目前為止完全沒有進展根本沒有聲音所以我想這種提議概念大家都有請部長就是繼續掌握這些資訊那部長您講2026年歐盟碳關稅每噸大概折算多少台幣嗎?"},{"start":5074.468,"end":5089.596,"text":"呃事實上歐盟的碳關稅的這個部分每一噸是100歐元嘛齁但是這個東西事實上也大概也是大概我掌握是八十八九十元大概是也是三千塊的三千元的台幣"},{"start":5091.837,"end":5094.158,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":5117.822,"end":5138.896,"text":"我們現在550幾家的被徵收碳費的對象不必然他們會有產品輸到歐盟去那這一塊事實上螺絲、螺帽、水泥等等這些他們要輸歐盟會受到西邊影響的這一部分事實上反而是蠻多中小企業"},{"start":5139.896,"end":5146.805,"text":"其實我強調是他們是一個全球的概念是我們這邊徵收了那他這邊是可以扣抵的就是說這個觀念我們就是要有那部長認為這個差額與其讓歐盟鑽索假設發生了還是說我們台灣自己來徵收這個足額的這個徵收然後對我們國家整體是好的您同意嗎"},{"start":5159.44,"end":5162.203,"text":"您同意嗎?是,完全認同陳文的看法。部長,您之前說臺灣的碳費起徵價是320元,然後再逐年調升。我知道環團他們希望底價是500開始。假設2030年我們的目標值是3000元,其實這個差距很大。如果我們這個時候調幅很大,對廠商其實衝擊很大。"},{"start":5185.165,"end":5187.966,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":5202.31,"end":5223.821,"text":"而且也把它公告出來讓廠商企業可以去一做準備我想這個是很好的謝謝部長部長我想再瞭解一下臺灣近年還面臨很多這個垃圾山的問題那因為垃圾堆積發生火災就是頻傳我想至少發生在新北、桃園、嘉義、臺東、苗栗、新竹、屏東和南投等都發生過那個垃圾山悶燒那造成嚴重的空氣汙染"},{"start":5228.883,"end":5243.528,"text":"那我想這個不但是對於我們的生態有影響那對居民生活是一個重大困擾甚至也可能嚴重的對我們的地下水有污染我想部長應該非常清楚那在2023年環境部的官員有指出"},{"start":5244.628,"end":5246.99,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":5264.246,"end":5284.147,"text":"同意這個說法嗎?我給陳委員報告這個說法不全然正確因為發生火災的這個當然有一些是包括他事上是非法的暫時的氣質我跟陳委員報告我們現在有24座混化爐在運作他的處理量能是一年650萬噸"},{"start":5286.63,"end":5291.151,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":5305.895,"end":5331.228,"text":"處理事業會期負的單價比較高部長您說有一樣但是請問那您認為垃圾山的主因是什麼我們已經在未來事實上還有幾座魂化爐陸陸續續經過整改之後它的處理量能跟效率都提升所以環境部在這一塊倒是可以跟大家報告我們等一下再來看一些數字2027年以前大概一般垃圾我現在先談一下這個新峰"},{"start":5332.208,"end":5361.018,"text":"是掩埋場他因為就像其他的垃圾堆置場一樣他因為高溫或早氣在5年內引發的火災有67次所以他們當地的這個居民的里長就表示說這個新豐掩埋場長期堆置垃圾他的那個惡臭蚊蟲滋生是居民非常重大的困難那更不要說火災造成的這個這些空氣污染就是影響人民的健康而且垃圾堆在那個地方對他們來說就好像"},{"start":5362.459,"end":5370.447,"text":"夢業或是這個不定時炸彈那剛剛好像部長有提到垃圾掩埋場是大概是將近400處吧393處我掌握的數字是…請問報告喔垃圾處理方式最終端處理掩埋場一種"},{"start":5378.114,"end":5382.118,"text":"但是有關預算中心110年度的單位預算評估報告也說臺灣掩埋場的空間是趨於飽和已經也不及應付產生的量即便是封閉的"},{"start":5395.452,"end":5401.114,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":5412.157,"end":5431.492,"text":"事實上掩埋場我們覺得以臺灣現在的情況不會再增加了但是會去做整改整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來整改的問題等一下我也再跟那個部長討論一下就據本席瞭解國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾"},{"start":5432.413,"end":5436.637,"text":"當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等但是我們看到左邊這個圖表就是2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破長年都維持在400萬公噸那個黑色的部分400萬公噸即便2022年達到最高的處理量"},{"start":5453.236,"end":5465.097,"text":"都還是來沒有辦法不足以應付這個垃圾的這個生成那那部長那環境部每年花了一二十億的錢吼那到底就是說他是用在哪裡了跑去哪裡了"},{"start":5466.284,"end":5492.913,"text":"事實上台灣現在包括這個花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成它可以增加大概是30萬噸的一個處理量能每年所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後這個情況應該會改善所以這個費用您是放在這個焚化輪的整新改建還是說"},{"start":5494.594,"end":5519.933,"text":"還有包括有些縣市他沒有焚化爐比如說像南投那我們會補助他所以目前還是在一個偵測焚化爐的一個做法對一個過渡的階段事實上長遠來講我想公益暫期是必先利其器就是說處理這個失業廢墟量能不足之外那當然專用的處理廠也許也是可以考慮那如何台灣的焚化爐系統有很大第一個使用年限過高"},{"start":5520.774,"end":5529.2,"text":"部長一座焚化爐的平均使用年限大概是我了解應該是20年就要做整改嘛是但是現在到目前為止您剛剛說24座那沒有關我這邊25座的焚化爐辦事府已經用過超過20年限像最古老的這個內湖焚化爐用了30年之久欸"},{"start":5537.405,"end":5543.93,"text":"所以一直到2020年還進入整備期所以這當然會壓縮末端垃圾的處理對不對這是第一個那第二個焚化爐設計的熱值我們知道每座焚化爐它可以處理垃圾的這個量能多寡受限於這個垃圾焚化爐產生的熱值對不對那早期我們的設計是說每公斤是1350到1600大卡但是因為隨著垃圾成分的改變尤其近年來那個塑膠成分增加"},{"start":5563.463,"end":5588.645,"text":"那塑膠成分的這個熱值會達到每公斤4000到5000卡所以現在目前這個焚化爐的設定熱值是兩倍高欸那這樣設熱值升高表示焚化爐、焚化廠它的處理量能也跟著減少啊那你現在還在蓋焚化爐嗎?用焚化爐來解決嗎?事實上我們未來已經大概到29座焚化爐之後就沒有再增加了"},{"start":5589.065,"end":5613.044,"text":"一般家戶的部位那我最後談到這個章化金鼎焚化爐因為我上次好像也跟部長講過因為總統大選前那個林佳龍秘書長跟鄭文燦副院長都去承諾說他不蓋但是後來選舉後不但沒有不蓋而且立刻這個3月14號這個廠商馬上火速召開這個說明會那黑衣人坐滿會場你進不去喔給陳委員報告齁這個我們還沒接到金鼎"},{"start":5618.517,"end":5618.717,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5641.243,"end":5641.623,"text":"陳昭芝委員"},{"start":5672.222,"end":5699.874,"text":"主席好,我們有請我們薛部長。請薛部長。好,邱仁好。部長好。我想請問一下,就是針對碳費的費率,那麼環團現在說每噸,他建議每噸是500,那我們政府傾向是300左右。那企業呢,初期建議,初期從100開始。那我想,我們部裡面現在的決定的金額是多少?"},{"start":5700.771,"end":5707.021,"text":"給邱委員報告是不理我們不會去決定基本上是根據氣候法是由碳費會議審議委員會他們去"},{"start":5710.974,"end":5728.347,"text":"審查那審查他們要用什麼方式呈現給環境部我們那時候再來做決定那我們的責任就是趕快把執法去做這個預告您的執法現在12項優先的執法我們現在已經完成7項還有5項還沒完成嘛對不對還有4項跟碳費相關的還沒有完成"},{"start":5732.25,"end":5749.743,"text":"那我據我盤點過是我們至少還有15項的執法不是優先的啦是加起來都還沒有都還沒有一個確定的一個做法是不是啊這個有一些是準則我想我們都切勿數應該有持續在進行的"},{"start":5750.509,"end":5767.443,"text":"那我們昨天昨天吼,碳費第二次審查,我們審議委員有提到,環境部提供較為確實的法律架構才能進一步討論嘛。對不對,那部長您這個是,您現在說急著要上,要開始來執行的話,這是會不會有問題?"},{"start":5768.43,"end":5790.358,"text":"我認同邱委員的一個看法就是說環境部應該更周全的來考量碳費這個包括起徵點因為這樣子會讓人家覺得我們是先設建再劃把這個到時候影響的問題會非常的大邱委員報告基本上就是說當然各部門的他應該有一些做任何事情都有一些規劃"},{"start":5791.798,"end":5819.665,"text":"那規劃我們也要考量實際的一個情況那現在的的確包括我們也都了解事業這個邱文也提到吼電價要上漲那所以環境部當然在碳費這一塊我們也會傳達給對因為這個部分吼我們在因應這個電價的再調漲之後再加上這個碳費的這個收入這個部分吼我想對於我們的企業或者是我們民間吼我們人民吼這個影響是非常大的吼是"},{"start":5820.345,"end":5822.65,"text":"另外我們有看到就是說"},{"start":5825.143,"end":5848.453,"text":"我們台電現在就是虧損了大概4000億左右那如果照這個溫室氣體排放量的資訊平台的統計我們這個在這個111年發電量含排量大概10500萬噸那如果一噸300元計算一年將多支出300多億我看到我們的報告裡面是寫說我們的電費是"},{"start":5851.718,"end":5854.461,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":5873.095,"end":5897.725,"text":"致電電廠那個要致電電廠要嗎對對對對所以臺電的不用是對因為這個因為他這個是公平的是原則因為他們是盈利臺電是配合政府的政策認同你不應該把這個他們有他們有已經有他他們的利潤了你不應該把這個他們的利潤然後又又提提高到更多然後讓我們人民來買單啊這樣是不行的謝謝邱委員的提醒"},{"start":5898.465,"end":5899.926,"text":"對台灣而言我們長期也是要走碳稅"},{"start":5918.419,"end":5936.986,"text":"那你幹嘛現在要走碳稅?沒有沒有一定要有一個過渡時期因為我們目標是要減碳對環境部而言收取碳費絕對不是我們的最終目標我們的最終目標是符合2050淨零排放的這個大目標那你這段期間勒?對對你這段期間你還是用碳費當作一個工具"},{"start":5938.104,"end":5958.415,"text":"你現在還是用碳費嘛?用碳費來收嘛對不對?因為碳費可以專款專用。因為我知道碳費它是專款專用,如果是碳稅的話是到國家的大水庫去嘛。那等於就是說,碳費是我們環境部的私房錢?不能講,這個是公交的錢,不是私房錢。"},{"start":5960.7,"end":5978.252,"text":"所以我覺得這筆錢的應用我們必須要有一個非常明確的一個作法。求聞報告,七六法裡面都有列13項都已經很清楚被定義了。所以我想大概環境部也沒有額外的這個權限說想要再額外增加的項目。"},{"start":5978.632,"end":6001.404,"text":"然後目前我們歐盟的CBAM的這個是對產品科稅嘛那我們的碳費是針對企業組織是那所謂的這個CBAM初期的規劃產業當然不是我們臺灣主要出口的項目啦我們日本跟美國也在評估類似的CBAM的做法那臺灣要如何讓國際來承認我們的碳費機制"},{"start":6005.301,"end":6028.007,"text":"事實上歐盟這一塊他們執行細節也沒有出來本來說7年底要出來也沒有去了所以我們現在做會不會到時候我們的做法不被國際認同根據他們的母法不會應該會被認證只是我跟邱委員報告會不會像以前我們打高端一樣打了之後別的國家不認同我們要重打一次不過高端後來被證明效果非常好我個人也是打高端"},{"start":6029.007,"end":6039.853,"text":"問題那時候也是造成國人的一個困擾嗎?有時候是媒體或者有一些不同觀點的人刻意去炒作的我個人一直對高端很有信心"},{"start":6040.919,"end":6064.502,"text":"我們不講這個問題啦因為我們現在就一樣是講到這個我們擔心的是如果我們的高端我們的這個收費的碳費的機制如果不被國際採納那我們有沒有什麼相應的作用給邱委員報告基本上就是說我們收費碳費跟西本不完全相等因為西本它是針對輸到碳那邊的產品那跟邱委員報告事實上經濟部"},{"start":6065.964,"end":6088.114,"text":"議員會長"},{"start":6089.139,"end":6091.621,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":6114.332,"end":6139.748,"text":"你大概講一下。我想基本上當然就是以減碳為主。它也要顧及包括公正轉型等等的這個議題。那我請問部長,就是我們有一項就是補助直轄市縣市主管機關執行溫室氣體減量工作事項。那這部分是指哪些?只有掛上同樣的相關字就符合嗎?"},{"start":6140.168,"end":6161.001,"text":"事實上除了碳會之外我們也因應行政院通過一個調適變遷、氣候變遷的一個計畫那個就是中央跟地方共同來合作所以這裡面氣候法也明確的在這邊講嘛那我們對繳費的這個大戶的所在縣市有沒有特別的回饋?"},{"start":6163.647,"end":6182.646,"text":"這個補助的機制還可以有時間討論希望部長到時候符合公平正義的一個原則另外我再問一下再給我一點時間部長現在您看到我們最後一個有10項我們苗栗縣爭取很久的廢棄物處理的一個重大案件是那個好"},{"start":6185.988,"end":6203.933,"text":"這個部分我希望部長能夠協助苗栗縣來辦理因為剛剛也講到陳昭之委也有講到我們掩埋場的問題在去年我們苗栗市的焚化爐也是發生了大火但是那個部分因為以前是沒有做不透水布"},{"start":6204.893,"end":6226.671,"text":"但是我覺得那還是要處理那對環境還是會造成影響那當然這個計畫比較大那希望部長全力來協助好不好我們覺得會全力來協助那也請求人可以適度地轉達苗栗縣政府部長在計畫的原題方面也希望能夠配合部裡的一些要求基本上我們也是"},{"start":6227.011,"end":6241.157,"text":"好,我可以當這個橋樑,好不好?如果部裡面碰到這個問題,你可以先聯絡我,我再來協助,好不好?好,謝謝部長,謝謝。謝謝邱政軍委員。等一下在廖偉祥委員質詢結束休息10分鐘,現在請圖全級委員發言。好,謝謝主席,那請我們薛部長。請薛部長。"},{"start":6258.953,"end":6258.994,"text":"好 討論好"},{"start":6260.916,"end":6288.779,"text":"好 薛部長在上次質詢的時候我也跟你提過就是因為我們桃園工業區有非常多那之前也跟部長這邊報告我們桃園有36處的工業區那有登記的廠房大概有一萬兩千間那我想請問一下那我們桃園有一個比較老舊的工業區叫大園工業區大概有40年以上那"},{"start":6289.56,"end":6313.62,"text":"他在2020年的時候很多的民眾反映然後很多的里長也反映就是那個工業區裡面常常有很多燒焦的味道還有酸味還有化學溶劑的味道那時候陳情難也非常多不知道後來我們針對這一部分部長知道我們這一部分我們環境部這邊有怎麼處理嗎因為當時叫環保署啦OK"},{"start":6315.129,"end":6339.864,"text":"我是不是請我們黃管署嚴署長來報告因為大園這個工業區的確比較年代比較久遠沒關係那個看重點是看看突然重點是要怎麼樣我們來因為我想了解一下因為這個案子從2020年民眾就已經陳情到現在那個時候陳情案件大概就有五六十件那不知道後面"},{"start":6340.845,"end":6361.254,"text":"因為據我們了解好像說有成立專案計劃是嗎?那不知道計劃的成效如何?有專案計劃嗎?有掌握住嗎?除非是說議會那因為我覺得當地應該有一些監控的機制在進行當中才對對因為據我們了解環境部好像在2021年有成立專案計劃那"},{"start":6366.249,"end":6384.741,"text":"所以環境部沒關係那這部分後面再給我們確實的詳細的書面報告那還有一個比較重點其實據我們了解好像後面確實是有一些成效那從2020年陳情案件56件後來到2022年的時候陳情案件就減到了25件最主要當初我們有舉發了告發了兩到三家然後後來"},{"start":6396.449,"end":6413.397,"text":"曾經案件減少的原因是因為說我們有用科技執法新的監控儀器所以它告發了13家表示這兩年中曾經案件減少然後告發的廠商的業者的"},{"start":6414.872,"end":6414.912,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":6437.202,"end":6451.484,"text":"檢舉空汙的、異味甚至水源汙染等等部分那是不是居然這些新的科技監控儀器有這種成效是不是可以推廣到其他的工業區去使用是的我想謝謝圖文的提醒我想"},{"start":6452.185,"end":6455.147,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":6471.437,"end":6471.577,"text":"主席"},{"start":6491.008,"end":6513.975,"text":"環保要檢舉、要舉發這些業者其實真的並不是那麼容易常常排放空屋的時候然後我們人員去到的時候就沒有了那常常民眾也有很多不好的想法說是不是跟業者跟我們這些環保局、環保署是不是有聯繫一檢舉就不排放"},{"start":6514.415,"end":6538.641,"text":"當然我相信我們公務人員的清白啦那可是居然有這麼好的儀器為什麼不去廣泛的推動來使用切實的掌控這些空污增水源的問題那跟圖文報告事實上剛剛我們原署長有告訴我說桃園這一塊過去幾年事實上跟當地的里長合作相當密切所以很多包括舉報的這個部分我想也謝謝我們的里長能夠這個仗義執言勇敢的去"},{"start":6544.762,"end":6571.491,"text":"以民眾的健康為福祉來我希望我們環境部剛剛講的目的就是希望居然這麼有成效為什麼不好好去推廣那這個儀器居然效果這麼好為什麼現在還很多說檢舉抓不到的問題是不是能夠切實去推廣這個儀器購買需要經費啦也希望土委員在我覺得如果真的有成效應該錢要花在刀口上能夠解決我們空污跟水源污染的問題好 謝謝"},{"start":6572.611,"end":6600.238,"text":"好那今天主要這個碳費據我們了解昨天開這個第二次的會議好像針對這個碳費的收取部分好像還沒有達成共識是嗎?也不是所謂沒有達成共識啦他們事實上是有一些共識齁而且這個共識事實上是往良性的方向發展包括希望以科學基礎來定碳費而不是大家在那邊喊價去投票假如"},{"start":6601.138,"end":6621.235,"text":"真的要給一個數字投票5分鐘我們就可以解決了但是環境部並沒有這樣做我們希望提供委員更這個完善的一些資訊讓他們去判斷當然也把CPI就是大宴這個提出了一個這個建議給納進去考量那你們預計大概什麼時候要來實施"},{"start":6622.516,"end":6649.729,"text":"我想這部分我們當然希望這個匯率審議委員會盡快啦但是也必須考量到整體的可是之前好像有講說是不是要從明年2025年開始徵收明年是收費啦當然這個土耳其人腳踝也有這種想法事實上我們也會來考量今年開徵但是是不是從某一個時間點開徵我覺得這個也是一個很好的一個折衷的方式"},{"start":6650.049,"end":6666.338,"text":"可是我們知道以世界這個潮流這樣徵收這個碳費是勢在必行是勢在必行那現在我們現在也擔心因為我們現在台灣這個電價現在又大幅的調漲那企業也很多也很擔心而且現在整個"},{"start":6667.418,"end":6681.159,"text":"整個我們社會共識連這個整個徵收怎麼徵收多少噸費用等等好像都還沒有完全的一個標準而且業者也反映說那是不是有機會給他們一個緩衝期不知道部長針對這部分有什麼看法"},{"start":6683.021,"end":6711.346,"text":"會拿進去考量事實上我在某個程度蠻認同當初當然有一個理想的期待那假如客觀環境有改變環境部這邊來配合做一個調整對我們的產業衝擊影響可以減少同時對於我們在減碳的這個路徑上也是超著我們目標的好那請問一下這個碳費的收取它裡面會不會有回饋在我們受污染第一線的居民這個部分事實上"},{"start":6712.925,"end":6736.605,"text":"廣義的解釋或許可以用用得上所以有機會嘛因為有很多民眾反映這個費用的收取是不是他們這些第一線我覺得公正轉型事實上就這個凍結目的我覺得應該是有必要的我覺得認同突然的還有我們了解工業區裡面好像一個空污防治費我們這空污防治費一年大概收取多少錢"},{"start":6737.872,"end":6758.041,"text":"一年50億左右是吧?全台灣一年50億嗎?有一部分事實上是地方政府分配給地方環保計劃那它這個費用收取的部分裡面有蹲青木林的費用嗎?有分怎麼樣?就是照顧附近受污染的居民因為民眾有反映...跟委員報告我們收取的那個..."},{"start":6762.587,"end":6777.642,"text":"空汙基金上面來講從固定汙染源有收一款那移動汙染也有收一款那另外是營建工程也收一款對有沒有回饋給居民我們不是用回饋我們是汙染改善的方式來講對啊像他說他們住的地方是不是可以裝空氣清潔機"},{"start":6780.103,"end":6800.776,"text":"給圖文報告所謂回饋這塊應該是事業單位或者開發單位他們去回饋啦那既然繳交這個公積金他公積金的使用他有一個這個法規範那所以因為剛好這樣有收取這個碳費我希望這個碳費的部分到時候可以考量一下照顧一下我們這第一線受汙染的居民"},{"start":6801.789,"end":6807.81,"text":"好,請部長,我們這位副主任希望嚴允的時候把他納入。好,謝謝圖文的建議。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝圖文。謝謝圖權級委員。接下來請廖偉祥委員發言。謝謝主席。有請我們薛部長。請薛部長。"},{"start":6835.24,"end":6855.249,"text":"在進入今天的專題之前剛好昨天發生一件大家高度注目的案情有關我們的臺北市在新義A13那裡有疑似爆發大規模食安中毒的事件目前有9起案例一人死亡兩人命危這起食物中毒已經有累計9名醫院通報6名陳情3例"},{"start":6858.65,"end":6885.62,"text":"那大部分人都有吃到使用到這個所謂的草果籽喔草果條喔所以除了一名死亡之外還有兩人在加護病房葉克膜急救那因為我也有看到新聞有說到是腎衰竭就是看起來是相對疑似這種中毒的可能是化學啊等等的問題當然現在都還在調查中喔可是環境部喔依據環境部所組長食安五環業務也有這個所謂的源頭管控為了避免"},{"start":6886.3,"end":6906.86,"text":"被不肖業者利用化學物質在添加到食品中因此對於這個食安有疑慮的化學物目前中央也有我們環境部嚴密的追蹤機制用來監督這個57種具有食安風險疑慮的化學物質的流向所以我想要請問一下這個部分你們現在有沒有持續在追蹤有關於這57種的化學物質的疑慮"},{"start":6910.152,"end":6933.232,"text":"給委員報告事實上擁有這57種食安風險的化學物質他們必須要運作要許環境部有合格才可以而且要把運作計畫書要送到環境部那每一個月事實上他要去化學營去登記把目前的情況都在這個資料上面呈現"},{"start":6933.812,"end":6953.622,"text":"是,我今天前面趕快講一個實事題就是希望再次提醒我們近期台灣已經有太多的這個食安的事件而且這是看到更加的恐怖所以也要提醒就是我們環境部這個部分這個業務還要持續的更緊密的追蹤然後有必要的話甚至主動的提供這個數據可能給我們的檢調那再來"},{"start":6957.924,"end":6972.964,"text":"部長我們進入到我們今天的主題部長我們的碳費費率審議委員會在3月15號才開第一次會昨天召開第二次我們看了新聞稿之後就請問部長為什麼要這麼晚才召開這兩次有達到任何實質的結論嗎"},{"start":6974.899,"end":6993.932,"text":"事實上他們有一些共識那結論的部分當然有但是不是給碳費的費力沒有馬上出來這個當然跟我們當初的議期有一點落差但是反而是往好的方向走那我問部長媒體報導說4月份要再開一場有確定時間了嗎"},{"start":6995.347,"end":7011.646,"text":"呃,還沒有呢,現在在我們氣候署在調查時間。因為我看你們這兩場會議都還在收集這個國外資料喔。噢,不是啦,事實上媒體報導有,事實上這些資料都有了齁。那,這個有些委員有要求更多的資料,那我們再補充啦。"},{"start":7012.371,"end":7039.157,"text":"來請問部長這個看起來是不是520之前根本不會有結論會不會是要拖到520之後才會先底牌我覺得我們沒有把520當作一個這個時間點我想應該是讓碳類匯率審議委員會來決定因為看起來整個時程都是嚴重的拖和跳票這個讓我們感覺到我們的部會會不會是因為520到了會有520焦慮症很多事情不敢提早趕快做決定"},{"start":7040.097,"end":7064.618,"text":"所以兩次已經審議都沒有結論本來這季說要承諾也算是已經確定跳票那是不是520後才要真的處理會不會代表我們要第3季第4季才有結論給廖委員報告所有環境部該做的事情從來不會因為520的因素去考量那我跟廖委員報告我剛剛在前面幾位委員的行文請答中也提到"},{"start":7065.399,"end":7090.71,"text":"美國本來CCA就是它的清潔清淨競爭法案要在去年提出來說要說要來實施也都完全沒有是部長國盟的西邊細節也是好來部長我想要跟你表達的是現在喔這個企業界非常的著急是所以企業界瀰漫著這個叫做碳焦慮我可以感同身受對所以這個東西有所有的問題都跟這個費率有很大的影響喔所以我們"},{"start":7091.77,"end":7111.789,"text":"部長我們碳費率制定這個過程基本上可以分為沙灘區、潛水區、深水區可是現在進度根本就還在沙灘區嘛還沒有到潛水區所以企業完全沒有辦法估算成本連明年的預算要怎麼編都不知道所以就是想要跟部長說如果你是企業的CEO你有辦法忍受嗎"},{"start":7112.549,"end":7133.107,"text":"給廖委員報告事實上那550家或廠在兩年前環境部那時候環保署就已經知會了所以他們才能夠有碳盤部長現在因為這個進度落後會影響到四個層面也就是我們企業成本難以預估然後影響我們的碳交易量"},{"start":7134.09,"end":7134.53,"text":"議員提供討論事項。"},{"start":7159.924,"end":7187.438,"text":"也就是也必須也有體認到碳有價時代的來臨可是我們企業還是要依循要估算可是現在卻卡在行政部門你不覺得行政部門效率太差了嗎所以當然我了解到部長這個是你們是需要這個很你們認為要很審慎的評估可是你這個時程我還是要提醒部長還是必須要趕快出來因為你說2025年要要增了嘛對不對要開收了嘛是所以再來要問部長喔是"},{"start":7189.591,"end":7213.385,"text":"我們本席知道這個碳費未來不僅在各國國內會開始開徵也會再進一步在國際之間就有要求所有的進口產品需要這個加徵所謂的碳關稅雖然我們目前台灣還沒有辦理這個部分碳關稅但是你的立場有透過你的公開發言記錄大家也都很清楚你曾經說過公平貿易的原則你支持在對你支持這個部分"},{"start":7214.125,"end":7229.033,"text":"但是至少在企業以新的綠色商品取代舊有經營模式的時候無形中也會推升了很多的大眾商品的價格也會讓很多的成本企業外部成本內部化也會轉嫁給我們上下游甚至到消費者"},{"start":7229.853,"end":7238.64,"text":"因此企業買這個碳權付碳費的這個相關成本會帶來的物價上漲的壓力也就是所謂綠色通膨說到這裡就是為什麼兩週前我們這個衛環這裡希望環境部來業務報告時通過這個臨時提案要考量到CPI的部分那主基處也有明將這個減碳政策對於國內經濟跟物價的影響納入通膨的不確定因素之中"},{"start":7256.954,"end":7278.826,"text":"所以我們想要說的事情就是這個部分你們辦理的進度或者是你們的這個心態上面你們是怎麼樣去重視這件事情給廖委員報告我們完全尊重也認同這個大宴的決議所以事實上也把CPI的這個因素有請委員會在審議的時候要納進去考量"},{"start":7279.963,"end":7304.643,"text":"那所以就想要請問喔你們的考量有沒有很實際的估算到如果開針之後會讓CPI漲多少會連續漲幾年這部分就是外界一直很擔心的這個綠色通膨那未來有沒有計畫要將部分的收益返還給社會大眾以減輕這個碳費對於低收入家庭的影響然後政府要怎麼保證在這一過程中所有的這個透明度跟公正性"},{"start":7305.785,"end":7322.916,"text":"我給廖委員報告事項氣候法裡面有提到公正轉型的這一部分所以當然就會把它納進去考量那至於匯率審議委員會他們要實質上怎麼把CPI的因素進去納進去我想我也請我們同仁在"},{"start":7324.337,"end":7340.623,"text":"這個委員會裡面特別是提醒委員可以納進去考量我也具體建議一下部長因為你們在這個碳費費率的經濟衝擊的評估方法裡面這是應該要做的沒有錯可是現在看起來是環境部在主導可是這個對於經濟衝擊的評估不應該是這個經濟部應該用更高的層級來跨部會的來協調和去評估嗎"},{"start":7346.585,"end":7371.347,"text":"所以我最後的具體建議是說這個部分也請我們部長回去參考因為這個東西也姿勢體大這個算起來每年至少一開始至少是15.5億美金以上的這個費用我看到你們的那個碳的量如果假設用這個所謂的10美元去算的話所以這個部分也要拜託我們的部長謝謝廖委員我們跟經濟部的互動相當的好謝謝"},{"start":7373.129,"end":7376.893,"text":"好 謝謝廖委員的發言 現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7397.722,"end":7409.087,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":7490.042,"end":7490.644,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":7991.92,"end":8011.195,"text":"好,那我們繼續開會。我們有請第9號王玉明委員發言。王委員請。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請我們薛部長還有施次長。"},{"start":8016.159,"end":8016.359,"text":"吳俊仁議員"},{"start":8035.524,"end":8062.556,"text":"就要公告這個費率但是看起來你們開會的狀況其實我覺得沒有人在主導議事議程欸兩次都是市長擔任作為主席跟召集人但我看你們議程的排法非常的鬆散毫無目標可言這樣的開會我看開了十次也訂不出任何的方案吧而且你們的新聞稿對外竟然講說"},{"start":8063.797,"end":8088.786,"text":"在會中才決議要用科學為基礎來訂定那請問之前你們環境部所有的幕僚的研議你們是在做什麼都不是以科學為基礎嗎黃委員報告我可以這樣子真的很離譜我看到你們昨天你們昨天自己發出來的這個新聞稿這是誰訂稿的昭吉人還是部長講的這些內容"},{"start":8090.799,"end":8114.552,"text":"讓人家覺得我們的環境部是非常的沒有效率而且這麼重要的一個議程、議案然後早在去年委員會的委員就督促你有關於碳費的整個制定要有期程結果你們到現在我看到就是原地踏步啊找了一堆人來然後毫無共識"},{"start":8115.452,"end":8140.469,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8140.851,"end":8142.573,"text":"委員剛剛講事實上環境部在匯率審議委員會成立之前"},{"start":8155.991,"end":8173.174,"text":"環境部的確有對外來這個發布我們的規劃希望在3月底以前可以把費率告訴大家但是從成立費率審議委員會之後事實上費率的審議責任就是交給我們的"},{"start":8173.575,"end":8174.175,"text":"部長,由我提醒你了"},{"start":8202.682,"end":8229.322,"text":"這個在公部門裡面你們握有最大的行政資源召集人還是是你們的次長在當那你所有的幕僚作業每一次開會一定要有重點一定要設定進度你的期程我現在把你們的會議記錄攤開加上昨天你們發的這個新聞稿我發現你們就是沒有設定啊你們就是沒有設定然後現在推給委員會說啊這個委員大家共同決定如果是這樣子"},{"start":8230.243,"end":8236.309,"text":"我敢保證你會一再跳票啊因為你沒有人在主導整個議事我到底要進程到哪裡更何況如果環境部老早你們就已經有研議沒有這個委員會之前你們都有做過功課了哪來的從現在才開始用科學為基準大家再來討論我覺得"},{"start":8250.641,"end":8268.928,"text":"這個是大家都完全沒進入狀況的不過我跟王委員報告我想大宴委員會在之前也提案希望說我們費利審議委員會要去考量CPI對整個費利的徵收等等影響那從提案到現在已經兩三個月了"},{"start":8269.868,"end":8293.15,"text":"這些對委員來講他們也覺得說有道理但是也要給他們一些時間嘛那特別是大環境來講也有一些變化我個人覺得雖然前兩次都沒有具體的一個把費力弄出來可是我們也開過會員都知道假如我們是為了這個決定費力而開會事實上5分鐘搞不好就夠了"},{"start":8293.59,"end":8320.164,"text":"因為大家就馬上投票我們弄幾個但是我們覺得委員的建議很好齁因為包括委員會在開會的時候他們大家互相去這個取這個事先你們幕僚最後都沒想到嗎這些背景資料該收集的該分析的一個好的會議的開會就是你幕僚要做足功課把所有的資料早就要攤開來而不是等著會議委員來提醒你才說喔這個很好不是不是不是王委員真的有誤會啦齁"},{"start":8321.445,"end":8321.885,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8337.62,"end":8352.983,"text":"來 招集人你為什麼兩次主持會議是這種成效很差跟委員報告我們第一次會議的時候因為這個費率審議委員會的專家他是從各個不同的領域來所以我們第一次是希望說把我們碳費的制度包括法制"},{"start":8353.683,"end":8371.919,"text":"做一個背景的介紹那在做個背景的介紹之後呢這個有一些委員希望更進一步的瞭解包括國際的做法還有未來這個碳費評估的一些評估方法論要比較清楚的瞭解才能夠進到實際的審議所以因為這樣的一個狀況我們第二次的也就是昨天的會議就專門針對這兩個議題包括各個國家實施的狀況"},{"start":8376.262,"end":8399.274,"text":"還有這個評估的方法論經濟評估的方法論還有這個前幾天我們大院所提到的這個所以你們還在教育委員讓他進入這個議題喔你們不是找的都是專家都是這個領域對這個議題老早熟悉的人嗎因為委員有很多包括機關代表然後也有包括各個不同的機關自己要去做功課啊你自己連一個專業背景都沒有來當什麼委員"},{"start":8400.615,"end":8422.877,"text":"還要你們提供資料教育他然後從零開始喔有這種事喔難怪你們的效率這麼差嗎這不是一個委員會該有的基本上你這一個碳費審議委員會這麼清楚的就是要來審這個碳費的議題每一個來的專家學者老早你自己針對這個所有的背景資料你們老早就應該先提供進到會議不是一個教育訓練而就針對議題大家"},{"start":8426.18,"end":8445.411,"text":"閱讀過資料開始開會開始討論是的沒有錯沒有錯委員說的沒有錯就是但你們沒有這樣做因為我們的專家他是真的是組成非常的多元有經濟學家有材料學家組這個審議會是要來協助你們盡快把這件事情定案結果你們花了很多時間有的委員不熟悉然後再從頭教育這對嗎其實也沒有很多時間因為我們3月初組成的時候就開兩次會"},{"start":8452.495,"end":8479.57,"text":"那這兩次會我們也是希望說讓委員對於制度的權好那我就問你如果你們是這種這麼慢的一個做事方法請問你下次會議的重點是什麼我們現在因為除了費率之外我們這個碳費收費還有另外三個執法包括收費辦法指定目標跟自主減量計劃那因為這三個執法呢這個我們現在在行政程序希望說這個月底跟下個月初可以把這三個執法公告"},{"start":8480.891,"end":8495.56,"text":"有嗎?可以公告嗎?我看你們都是會跳票啊。徵收辦法優惠費率到現在什麼都沒有看到,我看女士通通都會跳票吧?我的PVT已經預告了,就是都會跳票啊。沒有,跟我們報告啊,因為我們部長也有提啦。這個禮拜五已經3、2、9了,下禮拜就4月1號了。"},{"start":8497.941,"end":8518.997,"text":"跳票其實會相較於這個不成熟的執法反而我覺得對…由我這邊提醒你們我覺得是你們做事方法有問題那我不知道你們這樣做事方法你們是故意延宕呢還是上面有指示說晚一點還是你們遇到什麼障礙跟困難但是拖不是辦法我必須告訴環境部拖不是辦法"},{"start":8520.258,"end":8533.001,"text":"現在大家都想要知道你是如何制定而如果從去年老早你們自己就知道而且你們也設定期程所有的背景值所有該收集完的資料不是你昨天的新聞稿還在從頭說給大家聽說這個用科學為基礎我們再慢慢來感覺好像你們之前都沒有在做任何功課我覺得這是不對的所以部長請你告訴我你現在遇到最大的困難是什麼"},{"start":8544.204,"end":8568.972,"text":"是這些企業的期待跟你們想要提出的版本跟環環大家喬不攏還是你們真的沒有辦法拿出有力的數據來告訴大家你剛剛講過嘛,訂費率很快嘛一個小時就決定了因為大家都站在自己的本位主義啊實際上沒有考量到前盤但是環境部我覺得我們有責任去做前盤跟周前的考量"},{"start":8569.552,"end":8591.538,"text":"當然啦!那就提出你的版本啊!你怕什麼?是因為這樣子才會稍微延緩一點那延緩並不代表我們跳票或不做我個人覺得這個用那麼強的字眼描述我們悉心接受啦但是只要稍微延緩對整個安慰制度更周全這個不是委員應該你樂意看到的嗎?你要延到什麼時候?"},{"start":8593.712,"end":8617.375,"text":"你總要給外界一個期懲吧,是今天媒體下的標喔,你環境部又跳票了喔。對啊,黃委員,我們講的是今年開增碳費,明年收碳費吧。你別忘了你要預告耶。是啊,要預告,但是預告是兩個月的時間。所以你最晚的Day Night什麼時候,你給外界一個明確的訊息吧,部長。做事情總要有期懲吧,總要設定目標吧。"},{"start":8617.915,"end":8618.496,"text":"所以你的期程是什麼時候?"},{"start":8633.117,"end":8652.204,"text":"你3月已經跳票你預定的期程是什麼時候可不可以給外界一個明確的訊息因為我不是委員會的委員你不是委員會你們次長都還召集人你不是委員會的委員召集人是你們啊要推給誰啊因為盡快來完成當初我們提到的你不敢講今年開徵明年有苦難言"},{"start":8653.664,"end":8672.731,"text":"沒有難言沒有難言沒有我看你就是啊你就是完全不敢給外界一個明確的期程我們是真的是很考慮上面沒有人給你靠嗎還是因為院長要換人了不知道依靠是誰不敢拍板我零不是我們在推動碳會的考量"},{"start":8673.7,"end":8675.322,"text":"六月底會完成嗎?六月底我想這個我們希望委員我們的碳費審議委員會能夠來考量"},{"start":8693.871,"end":8694.632,"text":"第10位蘇清泉委員"},{"start":8722.71,"end":8724.331,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長。我們看看這個就是車程車廂我們上任行政院長說這是屏東最美麗的天際線"},{"start":8749.997,"end":8755.122,"text":"太陽能板給你蓋成這樣,整個車廂弄好之後,整個車廂滾滾滾,你看看,灰砂走石,整個車程廂的百姓都來給我陳情,說煙蓬蓬,這就是空照圖,可以這樣幹嗎?"},{"start":8773.021,"end":8779.737,"text":"那你們是不是說有說要將來要做光電的要一丁面積就要做環評告這個規劃部長"},{"start":8783.472,"end":8811.43,"text":"給書委員報告這個的確早期的幾個案子現在回想起來可能的確在環境的這個景觀各方面的考量是比較不周到不過跟書委員報告就是說現在環境部也因為大宴的要求在6月底前要修改環評法特別是針對光電的這一塊不是只有重要失地才要做環評"},{"start":8812.811,"end":8828.027,"text":"包括一定的發電量或者一定的面積一樣什麼時候開始要這樣一塊一塊我們當初是答應大宴說希望在6月底前草案修正草案可以出來那接下來再經過一個議告"},{"start":8829.528,"end":8856.288,"text":"那能不能提前?因為齁,因為,他現在臨時進展,我們給你搶申請許可證,啊,我們請了了,啊,你沒有。但是,向委員報告齁,其實並不是說環評是唯一的這個光電設置的標準,現在其實經濟部或農業部,他們都有一個減核,環境減核的一個機制在做。沒錯,你說這個啦,這個叫做老鼻農廳,你如果來秉東我帶你來看一看齁。"},{"start":8859.172,"end":8863.421,"text":"7百公頃這麼漂亮的要把它擦一擦還要再做光碟盤"},{"start":8865.333,"end":8881.127,"text":"委員會參選人都要負責負責負責負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負"},{"start":8891.917,"end":8906.954,"text":"您若同意,這樣中央當然樂觀啟程。就是說,地方政府在市區或是發電,要扮演某一個程度的角色。這個或許以前是比較...我覺得我們..."},{"start":8907.975,"end":8910.076,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":8931.826,"end":8951.799,"text":"我研究起來這個碳費是我們是好像台灣首創在國外好像都是碳交易跟碳稅那你們的報告是寫說碳費會弄成基金統一管理然後會把空污水位都拉進來嗎"},{"start":8953.68,"end":8956.901,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":8975.51,"end":8978.835,"text":"李永遠教授說,我們台灣如果現在這樣補下去,到2030年我們的碳稅要高達6000到8000億台幣,有這回事嗎?"},{"start":8989.409,"end":9016.868,"text":"我尊重學術委員這個學術界的教授發表的言論我自己也在大學裡面擔任這個將近30年的一個教職我基本上尊重學術自由任何學者都可以發表他各自對某一些議題的觀點但是當然我們既然發表這些觀點事實上也要比較有科學的依據這樣會比較好一點"},{"start":9017.148,"end":9019.329,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":9039.98,"end":9063.319,"text":"眾數事實上他可以將來擁有這個碳權就可以在碳交所這個你們會將來會做嗎已經在做了不是將來已經在做了因為我們的農民經濟作物他還有收入以外還有碳交易人要收對我們有利對我們的偏遠地區才有意義對不對是"},{"start":9066.161,"end":9087.891,"text":"所以這個我們會爭取啦齁我們屏東尤其是屏東我們屏東人口80萬結果農民有農民移民有38萬但是我跟蘇緣提醒齁人家怕傳播這個概念齁農民齁到時他都沒去請求啦但是你要知道他的探權的價值齁"},{"start":9089.585,"end":9091.366,"text":"我們也很樂意見到種更多的樹,因為多人的環境事實上是正面的,這個是"},{"start":9114.434,"end":9132.412,"text":"那再來我要問你我們台灣醫療體系的碳足跡就是4.6%這真的假的我不知道啦那全球平均是4.4那醫療院所的那個碳足跡怎麼會那麼高呢因為用電量很吃恐怖啦"},{"start":9133.597,"end":9158.657,"text":"當然包括他的這個其他的使用的這個是不是因為我們用的都是石化燃料燃燒的所以會那麼高是這樣原因嗎他這裡面應該我個人覺得應該是主要是使用的電力的這個部分是用電力來算不是說發電廠是用石化燃料還是用其他的因為我們的石化當發電的是佔了快要80%"},{"start":9163.18,"end":9184.561,"text":"沒有啦!現在沒得管啦!當然這裡面煤已經也降到幾乎跟天然氣差不多啦!其他的包括再生能源啦!所以天然氣沒有算碳足跡嗎?當然有啊!天然氣牌蛋量會比生煤這一塊比較少啦!"},{"start":9184.821,"end":9195.428,"text":"好那醫療院所這邊也沒辦法輔導沒辦法檢嘛是我們積極來協助衛福部齁我們希望特別是醫學中心應該要當領頭羊來帶動我們醫療界齁來這個檢探對"},{"start":9200.851,"end":9206.995,"text":"因為這個太重要了。因為我們醫療、開打房、ICU、急診、疫苗的保存,那沒辦法,那沒辦法講。開打房都維持19度、20度,那個都很耗電。這一次要漲11%,大家都跳起來了。為何不說去10億而已,隨便亂講。農種,雖然是台北農種,只要給11%就要給2億。"},{"start":9229.144,"end":9239.281,"text":"高一大說他們要6千萬所以剛才這二十幾家醫學中心加起來就搶救超過15億以上還有其他都加起來30億以上"},{"start":9242.137,"end":9269.043,"text":"委員報告說醫療院所要開始進行碳盤查了解醫學中心裡面的排碳是來自哪裡最大就要看看能不能減少了我看你們有沒有找衛福部來檢討啊有啦現在要幫忙啦因為這塊早期的確在氣候變遷因應法裡面衛福部參與的是比較少那未來應該要加強力道"},{"start":9271.092,"end":9296.971,"text":"要輔導社會醫療院所因為現在醫療院所大家都要賭博剩下1%的絕餘還要要求我們要有韌性醫療我們才變成韌性啊那現在又漲電費你的碳費又來就死了了啊所以要好好的考量好不好市長對啊所以這個當然也是我們在做事情應該要全面來考量了在環境部的高度好謝謝謝謝蘇委員好謝謝蘇委員的發言"},{"start":9304.161,"end":9304.762,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":9322.677,"end":9351.01,"text":"王源好部長好首先我們真的非常肯定蔡總統過去8年來推動2050年淨零排放政策的落實我想也經過這個過程其實我們也看到一些具體的成果不過碳有價時代是真的就在我們的身邊我們也看到在這個過程裡面下一章可以看到的就是不同的"},{"start":9352.541,"end":9370.456,"text":"這些企業部門還有不同的團體事實上都有各自的想法剛剛部長也在答詢過程裡面有充分的說明那針對於在審議會裡面環團的聲明還有這個工商協定會當中他們的呼籲"},{"start":9371.343,"end":9389.855,"text":"不知道這方面部長的看法是怎麼樣,尤其對產業的衝擊的部分,因為我們知道到底是公清還是輸出?是,跟王委員報告,其實我跟社會的溝通當然不盡人意,但是其實"},{"start":9390.996,"end":9391.596,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9409.662,"end":9429.608,"text":"來給企業界壓力趕快要去做檢探這個概念是對的但是我們也必須了解台灣是以出口導向的國家我們的整個經濟的發展產業的發展跟民生是息息相關我們如何在這裡面拿到得到一個這個折衷點事實上就是考驗我們的智慧"},{"start":9430.228,"end":9448.374,"text":"所以當然各界對環境部也有一些不同聲音跟批評指教我個人來講我們都悉心接受但是我們是站在國家角度在看這個問題所以當然有時候在整個我們包括碳位執法的訂定公告各方面"},{"start":9448.894,"end":9458.992,"text":"有一些稍微跟疫情有一些時間上的落差也希望大家能夠包容因為我們總是希望可能可以更周全的來這個訂定這個法案"},{"start":9461.997,"end":9479.297,"text":"七月的部分我也參加過很多工商團體他們當然是考量到七月未來生存跟發展他們當然希望說碳費費率越低越好可是我們也要記住就是說台灣是國際的一份子"},{"start":9479.938,"end":9500.124,"text":"我們你在台灣不繳碳費你將來你的產品到歐盟你還是要繳那像之前的委員也有提到那為什麼不鼓勵企業界應該把這個錢繳在台灣而不要繳到歐盟所以這個是經濟部現在積極來協助受到西本企業的影響那企業我也跟他們講過我們將來這個碳費的收取"},{"start":9504.065,"end":9531.167,"text":"也把2030年的目標先把它訂定這個就是昨天匯率審議委員會的一個共識他們很認同而且就漸漸漸漸增加那這些高碳洩漏的企業你們真的要針對2030年要好好擬定計劃要去做自主減碳要能夠達到這個目標那政府一定會站在企業協助企業的角度讓你們在國際更有競爭力"},{"start":9532.248,"end":9532.388,"text":"主席"},{"start":9553.2,"end":9580.736,"text":"要制定很好的政策可是這個政策之前還是要有很好的溝通才能夠讓整個事情的完整度或者是對社會大眾的讓他們的理解可以更為完整那這邊碳交率可能除了大企業已經都有所準備以外其實很多中小企業也會不知道到底要怎麼因應這一波所以這部分在訂這個執法的過程裡面也麻煩部長再利用各種機會"},{"start":9582.357,"end":9596.21,"text":"好 謝謝王委員提醒對 所有的社會各界來溝通那我們再往下看其實在2050淨零轉型的過程裡面有12項的關鍵戰略我們看到這12項的關鍵戰略裡面在環境部這邊有兩個是主辦機關包括第8項"},{"start":9604.457,"end":9607.738,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":9628.297,"end":9650.27,"text":"制定政策或主辦過程中,應該把相關部門也要納進來。好,謝謝王文的提醒。我剛剛就提到,之前的淨零在推動的時候,好像的確有漏掉衛福部,實在是有檢討的空間。好,針對零廢棄的部分,我們可以看一些數據。"},{"start":9652.321,"end":9657.746,"text":"這部分未來在利用率的部分是不是有什麼其他的方式,我們很擔心這些會不會有人假借再利用而實際去傾倒廢棄物。"},{"start":9672.316,"end":9687.832,"text":"給王文報告 這個也是我們在推動資源行為促進法裡面環保團體的確也有同樣的顧慮所以他一直希望我們在這個促進法裡面不要把廢棄物弄一個名字叫廢棄資源"},{"start":9689.113,"end":9690.534,"text":"現階段一個過渡時期基本上是朝向廢棄物極小化"},{"start":9708.063,"end":9727.978,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":9728.859,"end":9754.514,"text":"因此,全體委員會的支援回收率在國際來說應該還算不錯。當然還有努力的空間,就如剛才王委員講,到85、86好像就到了一個CAP,那這個就是需要透過科技來強化我們在支援回收的力道。"},{"start":9755.154,"end":9766.745,"text":"所以在部裡已經有建立一個智慧系統來做相關的管理跟追蹤我們期待這方面還有更精進的地方有關於淨零綠生活的部分我們也發現"},{"start":9772.751,"end":9777.454,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":9802.049,"end":9821.784,"text":"這個制定的過程裡面有沒有經過哪一些比較實證的這個程序或者是讓民眾對淨零生活的認知定了85%、90%這樣的過程我們如何能夠讓民眾也真的知道他如何配合整個需求來因應他的生活的調整"},{"start":9823.551,"end":9843.887,"text":"給王委員報告事實上我們在執行面來講事實上有蠻多的這個等於激勵措施包括你響應淨零力生活事實上你可以透過APP去集點那集點將來可以月外兌換這個產品那另外一個就是透過環境交易"},{"start":9844.568,"end":9844.628,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9868.408,"end":9868.428,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":9899.005,"end":9899.526,"text":"登記12號,林淑芬委員發言。"},{"start":9912.989,"end":9922.971,"text":"部長過去的30年代1990到2020年全球的二氧化碳的排放量增幅達到54.27%那你知道從1990到2020我國臺灣我們的增幅是132.73%是全球增幅的2.45倍"},{"start":9939.875,"end":9950.24,"text":"除了碳排增加以外2021年我國人均平均二氧化碳排放量高於全球平均排放量約2.74倍"},{"start":9954.422,"end":9979.971,"text":"就是說我們的人均排放量大概是一年是11.69公噸那全球平均是4.26公噸那我要講這個是因為你剛剛講的沒錯因為我們在講國際競爭力因為要環境保護可是也要國際競爭力那跟我國主要的貿易競爭對手像是韓國、新加坡、日本、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、印度等等"},{"start":9980.831,"end":9988.001,"text":"跟他們比較起來我們還是排碳量最高的國家我們的經濟上的貿易上的競爭對手人均排放量還比我們低"},{"start":9996.172,"end":10000.874,"text":"今天在講說經濟要怎麼有競爭力今天我要再提醒你時不我語時間沒有站在台灣這一邊因為今天我們在講碳費要怎麼定要定多少還不是只有關係到說溫室氣體要減量氣候變遷的調適所以我們要脫碳的關鍵政策"},{"start":10021.9,"end":10046.796,"text":"更重要的是正因為就是我們要討論到企業的國際貿易的經濟力所以我們今天就是要站在這個世界貿易的經濟競爭上我們才特別還要講這件事情時程大家講時程怎麼這麼慢因為時不我語歐盟的CBAN的這個幾年要實施"},{"start":10049.724,"end":10058.651,"text":"歐盟的事實上是從正式實施啦2026年原業嘛OK正式實施就是說2026年的原業要實施碳邊境的調整機制他是要透過徵收邊境的碳價跟歐盟境內的生產品被徵收的碳價相等"},{"start":10071.281,"end":10074.863,"text":"所以你在這裡你徵收的碳價很低歐盟的境內很高它要調適到要合乎公平競爭而且要防止碳洩漏所以進口國已經實施出口國就像台灣我們如果已經訂定了碳定價制度它可以到那裡去減免"},{"start":10096.132,"end":10107.504,"text":"但是呢,如果他最重要一點就是說,如果你的碳費跟歐盟比起來差價太多的話,我們就要去買這個憑證,要買憑證錢是付給誰?"},{"start":10113.834,"end":10114.294,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":10136.55,"end":10136.59,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":10165.562,"end":10188.316,"text":"就像台電一樣它沒有計算因為它配出來了那現在呢你的整個機制要怎麼處理當然可以處理但是我要再跟你再講一下說我們的費率審議的機制實在是太慢太慢這個進程太慢主要還有一個你知道歐盟啊你雖然是這個中小企業產品出口可能是這樣子"},{"start":10189.876,"end":10206.806,"text":"但是歐盟市場貿易總額的台灣是它第14大的進口國僅次於中國、美國、英國、韓國、日本、印度、越南、巴西等等那歐盟像2022年它的經濟成長25.7%但是來自我國進口的成長量是22.6%那從我國出口來看"},{"start":10215.771,"end":10241.346,"text":"一百年是11.7%一百一十二年已經上升到17.6%占我國出口貿易的這個比例越來越高所以對台灣的衝擊很大所以大家應該問你說這個費用要怎麼弄那你要怎麼因應這種機制而且重點是我們是第十四大進口國嘛你知道嗎"},{"start":10242.046,"end":10242.446,"text":"主席"},{"start":10264.798,"end":10265.499,"text":"現在就是石化和鋼鐵業這種高碳排的產業"},{"start":10294.622,"end":10294.682,"text":"高碳牌"},{"start":10314.006,"end":10314.026,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":10330.612,"end":10350.015,"text":"那我跟你講因為你們台灣氣候行動網絡的研究你們自己已經算如果一噸300元啦前20大的碳排大戶的碳費徵收它的成本上漲是你們自己這個評估的是0.15到2.5啦一噸如果500元啦那個幅度大概是0.25到4.2啦到4.2啦上漲的價格是啊所以事實上以鋼鐵來講"},{"start":10358.939,"end":10382.244,"text":"一段的我們現在剛剛委員假設的那個情況來講對於它的競爭力或成本提高的比例並不會很高那他們現在喊價在喊什麼我不曉得我們現在講說這個碳價太低對約束減碳的力道完全是零啊"},{"start":10383.155,"end":10400.023,"text":"對阿所以這一點環團事實上是很有意見阿那我們現在又知道你現在預計除了說預計300元你們還可以基本扣除額你們還讓這些大企業是基本扣除2.5萬公噸2.5萬公噸先基本扣除額扣掉"},{"start":10401.189,"end":10407.314,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":10430.812,"end":10452.501,"text":"這一點我們都有考量你來看一下提供一下但是你現在是個別工廠收取那超大財團非常有利我這裡一廠、二廠、三廠然後零元一廠某某一廠什麼廠你個別工廠去生產我現在看一下台塑集團20大碳排大物台塑集團是第一名他們四大集團是414百萬公噸"},{"start":10454.232,"end":10459.835,"text":"然後再來是中鋼中龍加起來是2860百萬公噸對,你們現在以個別場區收你們第一階段去納管除了有這個2.5萬噸的基本扣除了所以有一些是可以就不准它去使用但是呢你這個超過2.5萬公噸的共有550個場區嘛"},{"start":10479.204,"end":10490.574,"text":"如果以加數來看是472家但是你們一個廠一個廠去然後一個公司它有好幾個廠所以它減增如果2.5萬噸去這個扣的話它減增的比例可能會得到的quota會更多謝謝林文的提醒這一點我們事實上有考慮進去"},{"start":10500.703,"end":10504.028,"text":"歐盟2023年3月碳交易一噸的碳100歐元"},{"start":10515.708,"end":10521.871,"text":"新加坡他們的碳稅2024年是25新台幣新幣就是新台幣大概570那他們預計2027要提高到每噸45元的新幣就是大概新台幣1059那2030年預計增加到50到80新幣大概就是新台幣1176到1881但是現在我們預計的300"},{"start":10543.843,"end":10570.972,"text":"其實韓國當然也有當然韓國跟我們競爭關係比較強但韓國他們透過這個碳交易的制度他們的價格是起伏很大的那我們預計收10塊錢美金雖然這個CBAN的它的這個初期免費配額率較高但是呢如果跟歐盟碳價差距過大你說這個CBAN是產品事實上你從這個"},{"start":10573.232,"end":10592.927,"text":"原料商到產品都有的大戶其實都有啊鋼鐵都是直接就是大戶就是兼產品出口國啊出口商啊你這樣子碳價差費差距過大等於是把這個錢送進去歐盟那不利於把資金留在國內執行溫室氣體減量或氣候變遷調適或者是說對於這個"},{"start":10601.774,"end":10604.183,"text":"相對弱勢的人他所受到的衝擊"},{"start":10606.721,"end":10625.388,"text":"有些錢有些這個運用的空間可以來我們也要來做一點這個補助所以你在這種價格上大家第一個時程慢第二個價格上不敢不敢一次到位可是我要再跟你講時間不站在我們這一邊時間不站在我們這一邊你不要講說你現在課碳費的對象跟直接出口的這個"},{"start":10635.572,"end":10635.812,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":10645.329,"end":10659.159,"text":"鋼鐵業它會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?不會啊石化業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?也不會啊當然你說加工零件當然就是中小企業那你也是要再想中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應啊你對中小企業這一塊未來2026就要上路的CBAN那你要怎麼因應?"},{"start":10666.408,"end":10668.99,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":10685.464,"end":10687.925,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":10704.352,"end":10706.233,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":10724.205,"end":10740.263,"text":"所以我們這個這個這個時程上來得及嗎?可以啦這個林委員也不用那麼悲觀喔因為這個氣候變遷是大家共同面對的阿也要真的要很嚴肅所以企業界應該真的要去思考他要怎麼我們不在乎這個"},{"start":10741.724,"end":10761.649,"text":"不是啊我們不在乎說你來不來得及但是我們在乎經濟競爭力但是經濟競爭力以外比起經濟競爭力不要忘了歐盟的這個規範是來自於真正是要做環保啊所以我們為了環保所以才會要求在經濟層次去訂出這樣的規定所以經濟競爭力是為了要符合環保最終我們這個東西其實要減碳啊最終是要減碳啊"},{"start":10771.292,"end":10785.722,"text":"林委員講到重點的減碳對阿所以要真的減碳阿要做到讓業者是真的要減碳是是我們會來努力好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員接下來請洪森翰委員發言請薛部長請薛部長好洪委員好"},{"start":10801.075,"end":10827.657,"text":"部長這個今天當然前面很多委員當然都談到費率的問題談到期程的問題那當然我一直認為現在在我們碳費機制的制定裡面接下來一個最關鍵的問題我覺得也是最爭議的一個問題最不好處理的問題還是是優惠費率是這個我們在氣候法裡面29條的這個優惠費率是部長我想先請問你"},{"start":10829.649,"end":10843.16,"text":"這個優惠費率這個條文是氣候法裡面的條文那它是由環境部所管轄所以在這個條文的使用上面不讓你覺得條文使用的目的是要來加速轉型還是來放寬標準"},{"start":10844.972,"end":10849.893,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":10865.179,"end":10886.731,"text":"因為這裡面有牽涉到一個過渡的時期所以我們希望能夠提自主減量才可以去搭配優惠匯率的這一塊但是提自主減量是要拿來加速轉型加速減碳還是要幫企業交換標準讓他降低成本絕對是希望他來加速他減碳的速度"},{"start":10888.099,"end":10912.409,"text":"優惠費率的目的是拿來加速轉型跟加速減碳這是非常非常重要的標準是對不對不是拿來降低他的成本的吧絕對不是這部分態度要很清楚喔很清楚這不能夠猶豫喔不然你剛剛猶豫了一下我替你擔心了一下喔你剛剛猶豫了一下就很可能會有很多人要見風擦身來挑戰你喔好"},{"start":10915.208,"end":10934.635,"text":"是為了加速轉型那部長下面齁之前有一篇報導寫到說環境部接下來說會採SPTI的自主減量那折扣多少那是另外一回事但是會採SPTI的自主減量來針對可能優惠費率的程度目前環境部還是會這樣做嗎"},{"start":10935.695,"end":10950.301,"text":"是 給洪文報告 洪文畢竟是這方面的專家我們在優惠的這一塊事實上又分兩個他假如要follow SBTI的這個部分他的嚴格條件你也知道比較嚴格"},{"start":10951.081,"end":10964.853,"text":"所以一般的企業大概不會走這一條路線所以我們才會說當然我們要顧慮現實面讓企業有辦法根據他本身的一個條件跟情況去提自主減量再想做這個優惠會議"},{"start":10967.916,"end":10986.756,"text":"前幾天的碳費審議委員會裡面大家提到一個共識是要以科學為本剛剛前面有幾位委員可能不一定有些不一定很知道以科學為本這幾個字在氣候變遷包括是碳定價制度裡面非常非常的關鍵能夠定下以科學為本的這個基礎"},{"start":10988.806,"end":11015.028,"text":"是我們對接國際非常重要的事情所以剛剛在講的SBTI的事情其實就是以科學為本現在國際上面認可最高共識的標準就是SBTI的這個以科學為本的路徑但是現在我要問部長的事情是我們今天現在民間確實有一個擔心優惠費率的條文會不會被拿來變成是幫企業降低成本或者是放寬標準大開"},{"start":11020.117,"end":11047.035,"text":"門戶大開大動的做法會不會變成是這樣我們的設計絕對不是這樣子我們的設計剛剛翁委員講嘛可是你要達成什麼樣的自主減量是尤其是你的自主減量裡面要有一個什麼參考的依據要不要參考以科學為本的那個路徑也許你做不到完完整整的SBTI是但是也許你做到部分但是你至少是在SBTI以科學為本的路徑上面的話我覺得這可以討論"},{"start":11048.516,"end":11076.144,"text":"但不是隨隨便便說因為中鋼成本太高了所以我現在就要幫他降低一點碳費應該不是這樣吧不是所以我覺得以科學為本的路徑是關鍵部長同意齁同意然後我們是以2030年的一個標準是已經我們路徑圖裡面有知道所以2030年的目標然後服務SBTI的路徑是然後來看他做到的程度來給優惠費率可能優惠的程度是這樣的概念嗎"},{"start":11076.964,"end":11082.107,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":11094.594,"end":11121.851,"text":"方法他就根據他自己的量能去提自主減量計劃那重點是他的自主減量計劃要能夠是加速轉型的啦是就是我們的重點大家監督環境部的重點就是他的自主減量計劃提出來的計劃是要能夠符合加速轉型的而不是來混的而不是來放寬標準的現在民間在看的是這個事情下面我要再講在座兩位委員吼是會議審議委員會裡面那個部長聽進去"},{"start":11125.027,"end":11152.582,"text":"現在確實一些廠商他有提出說除了我們在碳費的制定以外他也希望去考慮說那我這個供應鏈在全球競爭公平性競爭性的這個問題部長有聽過產業這樣子講有聽過嗎有有有這個台女我又參加他們的活動有聽過嗎部長我不知道你清不清楚歐盟在一開始的時候他們的ETS也就是手電管的碳交易之後他們也是考慮這個事情給了免費配額"},{"start":11154.066,"end":11179.196,"text":"但後來也知道持續給免費配額不是辦法所以用了CBAN用了碳邊境調整機制來慢慢的把這個免費配額給逐漸的取消掉簡單來說歐盟確實他們也考慮產業的全球競爭公平性的問題他們不是沒考慮他們有考慮可是他們很明確的拿出了方法那個方法叫做碳邊境調整機制"},{"start":11181.291,"end":11191.532,"text":"我們現在的問題是如果參考到臺灣我覺得臺灣全球競爭工具這個考慮我認為是合理的但我們拿出來對應的機制是什麼部長"},{"start":11193.069,"end":11214.594,"text":"有,給洪委員報告,事實上我已經在內部有跟他們,跟我們同仁主管談到,我們應該要開始來考慮推台版的西北,我也請行政院可以召集我們現在看到有一些廠商,廠商他有提出水泥業等等等,他說我也願意做到比較好,可是我一樣面對不同地區競爭的公平性的問題"},{"start":11215.914,"end":11223.581,"text":"那部長我現在就要問你了現在台版的CBAN其實我們在氣候法裡面有留了一個授權在31條部長你對31條的認識怎麼樣還需要再研究31條有辦法成為我們台版的CBAN嗎你們覺得可以嗎31條我們在氣候法的31條有可能成為台版的CBAN嗎"},{"start":11242.718,"end":11256.907,"text":"應該也可以當作一個基礎由那個來部長我現在看到這31條的內文坦白說跟現在我們一般認識CBAN的意涵很不一樣你可以看到我們其實簡單來說就是要進口的產品要來買對"},{"start":11259.025,"end":11284.244,"text":"Q.買碳權?買額度?對不對?但是大家都知道請問歐盟的CBAM他們認的是強制性的還是自願性的?部長?歐盟的CBAM他們認強制性的還是自願性的?強制性的他們只認強制性的可是我們31條反而是要人家去做自願性額度的採購這個有符合大家對CBAM的理解嗎?"},{"start":11285.171,"end":11301.446,"text":"恐怕是不太是吧所以現在我們的問題是假如部長就像部長說我們願意來啟動台版CBAN的討論跟規劃但我們現在在法規裡面的31條看起來他這個法條的設計看起來有些問題那部長覺得該怎麼辦那啟動修法你覺得可以啟動修法"},{"start":11313.157,"end":11332.193,"text":"我現在是在幫部長解決問題喔企業提出一個要求說要幫我考慮全球競爭我覺得這個事情可以考慮可是如果我們拿不出別的工具的話今天企業就會一直說那你給我降低碳費這時候就會產生環境部在訂定碳費費率的時候的矛盾跟衝突"},{"start":11333.325,"end":11348.318,"text":"我自己覺得我們可能很難把所有的期待跟所有的需求全部都壓在碳費這個工具裡面一次完成所以我們需要複合式的工具來去處理大家不同的需求這裡面就可能包括台版的"},{"start":11348.778,"end":11351.939,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45"},{"start":11367.358,"end":11385.018,"text":"企業該考慮的事情我認為可以考慮可是我們也要守住我們訂定原本碳定價該有的原則也就是是拿來加速轉型不是來放鬆不是來放寬標準的但我們需要其他的工具部長這個部分可不可以兩個月內給我們一個研議台版的碳面積調整現在產業有這樣呼聲啊"},{"start":11388.882,"end":11389.923,"text":"我可不可以請薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":11423.852,"end":11437.786,"text":"昨天我們開第二場碳費率的審議會本來決定要端出來的最後的調整機制就是我們要端出碳費率的相關的一些調整要公佈到最後我們還是再一次跳票"},{"start":11438.627,"end":11459.677,"text":"我們這個跳票其實已經不是第一次包括在112年當時我們本來說要推出來到最後我們還是延期那昨天的說法是說我們要等到今年溫室氣體排放的計算碳費出來溫室氣體排放量出來才有辦法去做估算那我們要114年才開始繳碳費"},{"start":11464.64,"end":11464.68,"text":"遊戲規則是甚麼?"},{"start":11480.689,"end":11506.164,"text":"不論是大型的企業界產業界或中小型的企業界現在都完全不知道我們未來碳費的徵收的規劃跟方向到底是怎麼處理包括產業界也產生幾個問題它相關的一些產業界的佈局機器的佈局相關的佈局它到底要怎麼去做調整佈局營運等等其實這些都牽扯在裡頭那去年我們也看到"},{"start":11507.145,"end":11520.973,"text":"蔡英文總統去參加我們的這個碳交易所的接牌典禮,她也特別提到就是說要把低碳跟零碳的挑戰化為新的機會跟商機但是機會到底是什麼?商機到底是什麼?現在還沒看到"},{"start":11526.916,"end":11546.565,"text":"對於中小企業來說他們還不知道到底整個邏輯跟方向到底是什麼也沒有辦法知道說到底後面是什麼怎麼去做一個遵循的方向所以現在很多產業界都普遍對於未來徵收碳稅也好碳費也好都面臨叫做碳焦慮"},{"start":11547.665,"end":11551.329,"text":"所以臺大風險中心連續兩年公正轉型的調查當中有五成的受訪者完全不清楚政府的淨零政策到底是什麼你的方向到底是什麼你的內容實際到底是什麼"},{"start":11563.482,"end":11573.909,"text":"八成的受訪者更認為淨零排碳的政策應該關注更多的中小企業有六成四的民眾受訪者擔心會有物價上漲的問題無論碳稅或碳費最後可能會有綠色通膨的問題有50.4%的民眾會擔心說公司會經營困難倒閉因為這些都可能還有一些營運成本還有相關的法規的配合"},{"start":11591.32,"end":11594.761,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":11620.158,"end":11644.952,"text":"沒有耶你沒聽到我們如果是中小企業我點進去看我真的不知道在未來因應淨零轉型的過程當中碳稅或碳費我法規的配合政府可以給我什麼樣的支持跟援助我打電話進去問我如果是一個中小企業的老闆我問說我應該怎麼遵循你可以給我什麼樣的援助我覺得他也講不出來你同意我的說法嗎我現在在你現場我馬上打電話問"},{"start":11647.062,"end":11665.052,"text":"我想這個李委員當然這個表示的是不問民眾的聲音或企業的聲音環境部會來重視的我想這個我們經濟部應該給的支持我覺得這個議題是跨部會無論是經濟部也好或者是環境部也好規到底是什麼未來未來的"},{"start":11668.374,"end":11692.524,"text":"內容到底是什麼我遵循的方向到底是什麼未來我的產業佈局我的機器設備我可以上下游我做什麼樣的調整這個不是你馬上法令一公佈我馬上就可以做調整企業因應產業界因應它有它的佈局跟時間嘛是就如李委員所講事實上這方面的資訊非常的豐富啦並沒有所謂的他不曉得要怎麼去轉型因為"},{"start":11693.55,"end":11694.431,"text":"沒有李委員講的這個情況啦齁"},{"start":11711.565,"end":11724.462,"text":"所有這次要接受碳會徵收的對象甚至是3年前就已經得到通知他們去做碳盤查你法規跟內容怎麼去做調整"},{"start":11725.39,"end":11747.415,"text":"部長部長部長我包括我們中小企業你雖然說第一階段不去不去徵收但是我們臺灣有13%的中小企業是靠外銷營收降佔將近三兆那未來他有沒有足夠的資源瞭解這些遊戲內容規則包括他後面的邏輯到底是什麼"},{"start":11748.095,"end":11769.773,"text":"我覺得非常重要,他們到底清不清楚政府可以給予多少的資訊跟資源,包括我剛才講的那個Line Ad圖片,包括我打電話進去一個專線問,他到底能不能,因為每個中小型企業營運的方向不一樣,他的產業也不一樣,你經濟部也好,你環境部也好,你能直接面對他的問題可以回答到哪個程度?"},{"start":11772.145,"end":11773.125,"text":"接下來我覺得還有綠色通紅的挑戰的問題"},{"start":11790.35,"end":11815.652,"text":"因為民眾也擔心說未來如果針對於碳費或碳稅的徵收會不會增加一些通膨的問題會不會有直接的影響那後續行政部門到底有沒有什麼樣的工具可以抑制通膨方向正確我們絕對要走有沒有其他的工具因為現在電價一漲通膨已經很嚴重那綠色通膨又一再來你明年又要做我支持要做我也覺得應該要做"},{"start":11817.657,"end":11833.904,"text":"這個你有沒有工具?所以李委員就是說我們不要把沒有在3月底前公佈碳費的費率一直站在比較負面的角度從某一個角度來看不是正好符合剛剛李委員講我們事實上應該考量是不是將來會有綠色通膨以及電費的漲價"},{"start":11838.646,"end":11861.042,"text":"會不會對部長我不希望我覺得這件事情如果要做他不是你他不是你的藉口我覺得你不要拿現在通膨的問題來做因為這個是一個正確方向我們也要跟國際接軌謝謝李委員支持你現在來講這個事情就是你的藉口方向正確但是重點是你已經準備兩三天到底準備了什麼東西你今年還不斷的在拖"},{"start":11862.253,"end":11889.461,"text":"因為大院也是在去年1月份才通過《氣候變遷因應法》環境部以前的 國際都在準備啦你不要講說大院去年才通過你環境部在這麼久你什麼都沒做那也真是離譜但是全世界立法院光是在討論碳稅、碳費已經討論得及了是啊討論很久2020年就提出這個你不要講立法院提出你自己是環境部你行政部門都在等立法院做"},{"start":11890.56,"end":11891.54,"text":"主席,麻煩請薛部長。請薛部長。"},{"start":11918.015,"end":11921.516,"text":"這一次我們針對這個碳稅的審議委員會、審議會開了幾次會議?到昨天為止開兩次。兩次嗎?一次3月15、一次3月26。3月15的會議記錄出來了。你有看到嗎?"},{"start":11938.555,"end":11949.821,"text":"呃...剛剛好像另外一位委員有提到啦另外一位委員有提到本席看了3月15的這個會議記錄不用...不用懷疑不用訝異就是一張紙就是一張A4的紙一張A4的紙裡面"},{"start":11952.597,"end":11972.056,"text":"主席致詞審略委員介紹審略然後報告事項就是兩點告訴大家就是說這個下一次開會的時間以及審議的決議要對外公布以達資訊公開透明但我從頭到尾看不出什麼叫資訊什麼叫公開什麼叫透明沒有啊"},{"start":11972.97,"end":11985.681,"text":"委員到底發言講了什麼委員裡面有提到什麼以及現在為什麼千呼萬喚還使不出來的碳費我們的到底收益的標準我們一噸多少錢全部都沒有委員有什麼建議政府現在有什麼問題全部都沒有"},{"start":11991.741,"end":12015.197,"text":"就告訴我們3月15號結論就是3月26再開第二次會那3月26開第二次會看起來也沒有辦法達成費率所以記不記得3個禮拜前一樣本期在這個委員會請教您您當時有講期待什麼時候費率會出來是你有講3月底是因為給報告然後"},{"start":12017.058,"end":12043.433,"text":"那今天有媒體問說520以前新政府上任前有沒有可能因為大家不知道520內閣總辭之後薛部長還在不在當然本席還是希望專業人才任用但重點在於是當一天和尚敲一天鐘你現在你什麼時候出來然後媒體問你說不要以520當成是一個基準點啊那不然要以什麼時候當基準點"},{"start":12044.802,"end":12047.185,"text":"考量各層面因素包括哪些?"},{"start":12062.25,"end":12078.94,"text":"當然包括企業界的競爭力競爭力以及國內現在4月電價上漲要不要考慮包括CPICPI要考慮那還有包括什麼事實上是蠻複雜的因素當然我們也必須呼應環團的期待因為環團覺得說臺灣假如碳費太低"},{"start":12087.225,"end":12104.262,"text":"對於我們減碳的效果就會很差是所以這一點我們把他納進去考量所以來部長不好意思喔我請教你現在是多少部的部長哪一個部會的部長環境部啊環境部啊是啊你剛剛講CPI也要考慮台電漲價也要考慮企業發展也要考慮欸"},{"start":12107.225,"end":12113.43,"text":"我覺得你跨部會了捏經濟部部長都沒有經濟部部長告訴我們說電價漲沒關係啦但是我拜託各位業者不要以電價漲當藉口來漲價啦經濟部部長告訴我們是這樣子然後經濟部部長也沒有再去考慮說物價通貨膨脹怎麼樣因為經濟部部長就直接跟所有民眾講說也不會電價漲也不會造成通膨啦"},{"start":12131.713,"end":12146.829,"text":"結果沒想到反而是我們環境部你的本位你的核心業務照理講你是因應氣候變遷因應2050淨零碳牌到時候是牌是零啊那你現在202好我先請教2025會不會實施碳費會不會實施碳費20252025會不會實施徵收碳費"},{"start":12154.116,"end":12180.794,"text":"2025會啊會我們會照著這個方向來努力照著這個方向來努力還是會CPI的也是大宴的決定委員會做決議要我們那就考量但是這相對來講這是什麼這是行政部門你各業務單位你要有自己的一個核心出來之後政委還是行政院院長、副院長大家來溝通嘛來處理嘛如果說你現在你就已經在想其他那抱歉"},{"start":12181.474,"end":12190.762,"text":"那我們在講是說那你有沒有捍衛你自己的環境部的核心價值跟核心業務啊那你有捍衛就不是這樣子啊"},{"start":12191.738,"end":12212.175,"text":"沒有因為大家對減碳的速度跟那個當然有不同的看法當然就是有不同的看法所以說才需要有標準簡單的事就不會說實在話啦每一個人都在負責都在做的就是一定是困難的決定這也是選擇是人類要不要去說收這個碳費這是選擇是"},{"start":12215.078,"end":12230.692,"text":"電價、能源政策怎麼做這是選擇那既然現在民眾我們選到了一個民進黨政府他過去8年我們講說能源政策就是錯誤不改就是不改但沒辦法1月13號還是由少數多數的人繼續執政這是選擇啊"},{"start":12234.366,"end":12245.21,"text":"但我的講是說既然做出選擇你環境部你要負起責任的你也要提出你的方案跟你的建議不然千呼萬喚使不出來那就是越拖啊那你這樣子你2025年怎麼開始徵收"},{"start":12247.571,"end":12271.023,"text":"可以啊因為今年事實上我們本來部長那個時候抱歉本席不好意思這樣講啊那個時候你是不是還是在這個位置不一定啊但是當一天和尚挑選之後你就是要負起責任的把這個費率給出來還有回去看一下這個會議紀錄好不好這個會議紀錄真的所有部會我們看過那麼多會議紀錄沒有人會議紀錄這樣做啊"},{"start":12273.223,"end":12290.076,"text":"委員的意見都沒有放進裡面就一張紙出來3月26的會議記錄出來會不會也是一張紙就告訴大家說下一次然後最主要就是說那個執法要再研議我甚至不好意思講說剛剛有我們執政黨委員在質詢還在問說你要兩個月內要給什麼計畫什麼報告"},{"start":12293.678,"end":12308.103,"text":"市民在想說你不就是我們環境部是要做實事的不是在那邊做表面功夫紙上功夫再給我兩個月然後再做一些報告一些報告出來就是在講是說是怎樣到最後是要幫徵收碳費來來那個舒緩是不是"},{"start":12314.421,"end":12334.905,"text":"我覺得最重點還是回歸啦出來方案之後大家才能做一個聚焦討論那還有我只在問最後一件事情時間也到了每公噸有每家這個排碳大戶要規劃說有每年有2.5萬噸的免費排放額度"},{"start":12338.238,"end":12359.228,"text":"這會放進去嗎?那個有修正的現在修正是怎麼樣?他必須要滿足某些條件才可以享受2.5萬噸那還是會有這個方向?對對對那這樣會不會有後續化整為零的問題?會不會我就是公司多成立幾家我每一家公司都可以有2.5萬噸他現在在成立也來不及了"},{"start":12361.015,"end":12366.178,"text":"所以會排除?會排除嗎?對不對?沒有化整為零的狀況?不會有化整為零的狀況?但是你2.5萬噸2.5萬噸怎麼算出來?2.5萬噸的那個標準怎麼算出來?是因為考量到以大戶為主那這2.5萬噸以上的佔了我們這個碳排量的77%比例非常高"},{"start":12387.589,"end":12395.425,"text":"所以大概就這一塊以大戶為主但是你不能有化整為零的狀況這也是過去我們也一直在緊盯說為什麼2.5萬噸你訂出來會不會後來變成是一個漏洞"},{"start":12400.128,"end":12400.168,"text":"委員會議進行時﹖"},{"start":12420.275,"end":12433.648,"text":"進行到討論事項處理完畢先行休息明天繼續開會那中午可以自行用餐然後等一下那個餐盒發下去可以自行用餐那現在請黃珊珊委員發言謝主席我請部長請薛部長"},{"start":12447.707,"end":12470.578,"text":"黃委員好我想2026這個有關碳稅、碳費的事情已經非常非常重要而且2025我們剛剛聽你講2025一定會收碳稅、碳費那現在的費率到今天為止還沒有任何的進展你覺得問題出在哪各界的意見不一還是政府並不是真的想收"},{"start":12471.825,"end":12479.793,"text":"我們一定是很嚴肅的來看待這個問題環境部想收啦但是在民意的要求之下可能會有很大的壓力是嗎"},{"start":12480.715,"end":12507.002,"text":"不會有壓力因為這個是一個既定的方向大家也都認同是我們要接回國際一定要有這個部分稍微緩一下我想有時候也請大家包容就是說假如為了讓碳費費利審議委員會馬上有一個數字出來事實上這種程式大家都知道很簡單幾個方案然後請委員投票就出來了可是委員他們很理性所以我只想知道你什麼時候會出來"},{"start":12508.204,"end":12523.61,"text":"因為這個是匯率審議委員會的決議我希望它符合我們的期待就是說2024我們是開增碳費2025去繳碳費這個是大的整個原則接下來我想問你碳費2025要收你的費率什麼時候會出來有時間表嗎沒有"},{"start":12530.354,"end":12533.735,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":12556.434,"end":12576.489,"text":"當碳費實施這個一段時間之後我覺得終究還是要炒碳稅當我們包括碳錢交易所的運作穩定以後那你覺得這個時間要多久我個人覺得一年、兩年、三年、五年我覺得假如把2030年當作一個這個節點應該是不錯的"},{"start":12582.917,"end":12604.364,"text":"2030當成節點2030轉為碳稅碳稅2030當成我們的目標至少在這之前把碳費把它健全讓企業讓民間讓國人都熟悉我們必須要為碳付出一些代價的時候這些將來就會成為碳稅的基準對吧"},{"start":12604.824,"end":12606.347,"text":"環境部指導環評,台積電要設新廠,雲林與嘉義在炒用水問題。"},{"start":12617.748,"end":12642.33,"text":"一個重要的新廠他當然必須設置前要評估他對環境的衝擊這也是找到一個平衡點所以我們是環境部嘛我們不是經濟部的環保署嘛對不對所以你的環境部就是搶水現在水有沒有問題還是大家要各縣市各平本市然後吵吵鬧鬧在設廠之前都不需要做評估"},{"start":12643.39,"end":12663.316,"text":"給黃委員報告有關水供應的問題事實上是經濟部水利事項那環境部是環評裡面會有一個水的用水需求事實上環評的委員是各部會都有代表在環評裡面有用水但是我比較好奇我們的環評裡面好像沒有管用電"},{"start":12664.963,"end":12684.805,"text":"也就是說當我這個廠要在這邊設置我會要求他做用電用水的需求在環境影響評估裡面做一些評分但是很有趣這麼多年來從來沒有把用電放在環境影響評估裡面對不對一點點而已事實上連評分的標準都沒有"},{"start":12685.629,"end":12707.522,"text":"用電的當然假如說黃委員覺得我們有必要納進去評論我的意思是說當產業不斷的發展將來更多的半導體業在臺灣要設廠另外接下去所謂的人工智慧他是吃電怪獸他來假設臺灣廠商要發展的話我們對於電的需求會更大現在已經到搶電了"},{"start":12709.266,"end":12709.326,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12724.957,"end":12746.459,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12747.042,"end":12748.983,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":12769.992,"end":12779.5,"text":"足夠的電力讓你去設廠而是你自己也應該負擔一些責任這個部長你同意嗎我們來考量就是說將來在環評這裡面對電力的部分他對他的電力台電給他的配置也要在他的環境影響評估裡面成為一個評分的項目讓這件事情不會發生我要來設廠然後全世界去搶水搶電"},{"start":12793.772,"end":12794.312,"text":"主席有請部長請薛部長"},{"start":12829.268,"end":12835.354,"text":"請教部長,碳費費率出來了沒有?昨天開第二次的審議會還沒有出來。那費率出不來的話會產生什麼影響?"},{"start":12840.8,"end":12859.993,"text":"應該是這個對企業界或許或者對民眾會覺得說當初在匯率審議委員會之前環境部事實上有對外面講我們的規劃實成沒錯但是當匯率審議委員會成立之後事實上我們就尊重"},{"start":12861.274,"end":12884.534,"text":"審議委員會他們的決定所以基本上不如外界你過去我們的部長你們對外界所說的時程嗎現在看起來的確有一點點delay那這個delay接下來會影響到我們後面整個關於這個碳的那個排碳減碳的整個國家布局嗎對不對你越拖的話不會"},{"start":12886.511,"end":12906.34,"text":"給羅委員報告部會啦好那我想請教齁環境部到現在是開了兩次的碳費審議會嘛對不對那討論還是在收集資料嗎不是事實上因為齁我們這次的審議會外界說真的評價也還蠻高的就是說他除了專家協助之外我們包括民間團體工商團體環保團體"},{"start":12910.395,"end":12925.501,"text":"財務跟會計是專業部門那我直接問一個快一點的問題你剛剛說兩個月你什麼時候公佈碳費費率我剛剛說兩個月怎麼樣我剛剛聽你在答詢說兩個月你碳費費率的那個公佈時程是什麼時候"},{"start":12927.264,"end":12947.839,"text":"必須等委員會決定之後他會經過一個行政程序到環境部這邊來我們所以還是要等委員會決定那可是我聽你說你你們確定2025年要如期開徵嘛對不對要2025年開徵嘛對不對可以啊對那個應該是可以啊那現在你又不是你好像也沒辦法掌握委員會什麼時候把碳費費率決定出來"},{"start":12948.919,"end":12976.768,"text":"我們期待這個速度可以加快不過給羅文報告就是說事實上現在還沒有辦法出來也並不代表今年沒有辦法實施我們希望說原來環境部其實是本來是預定希望第一季對不對就要公佈費率那已經跳票一次了那我怎麼能確定你不會再跳票而且你現在也沒告訴我費率的公佈時程我講兩個月兩個月那可以公佈嗎你有辦法保證嗎"},{"start":12978.186,"end":12982.371,"text":"你知道為什麼要講兩個月嗎?為什麼要講兩個月你知道吧?"},{"start":12983.083,"end":13008.687,"text":"大概很多委員都猜測他這個是不是跟520有關對啊兩個月以後你也不一定在這個地方我問的問題可能也對你也沒有任何的約束力不過羅委員因為審議委員會的委員他的那個認職期限是兩年所以事實上委員會應該會聽得進去所以到現在為止我聽到的還是承諾而已那我也看到那個部長過去受媒體訪問說你希望這個碳費每噸"},{"start":13012.948,"end":13028.463,"text":"三百元甚至超過是必然你接受媒體訪問是這樣說嗎事實上有一點誤解我的意思我是他們好像是問我說企業的負擔怎麼樣希望我弄一個數字嘛那我就引用當初環境部"},{"start":13029.344,"end":13047.417,"text":"委託中華經濟研究院以及另外一個協助單位提供的資料就是說以當時那個研究報告已經是3年前的他那時候研究報告接著說以那時候的環境臺灣收碳費大概每噸300塊每噸300嗎這已經3年前了我是refer到那個number工商團體是希望100啦"},{"start":13052.381,"end":13068.655,"text":"然後我們的環保團體堅持每噸費率要從500起跳所以大家也都是在爭執可是我想要請教一下部長我舉個例子你知道影響多大嗎你知道台灣最大的排碳大戶碳排大戶是誰"},{"start":13070.302,"end":13073.887,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":13088.365,"end":13089.186,"text":"臺電的溫室氣體排放大概是多少呢?每年?"},{"start":13105.483,"end":13110.387,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":13137.783,"end":13164.074,"text":"攪10% 900噸什麼意思?因為齁臺電我剛剛講過臺電他不是所有9000萬噸都要去攪我要告訴您的是齁臺電也要溝通好吧是對不對而且最後再一個很簡單的結論啦你也知道最近那個各國領導人齊聚布魯塞爾是在幹什麼?應該前面的我們最近的那個領導的高峰會知道在幹嘛?"},{"start":13172.296,"end":13183.26,"text":"第一屆核能峰會就是核能是對於我們降低化石燃料降低碳排非常重要的一個能源選項你承認吧"},{"start":13183.976,"end":13206.238,"text":"我……事實上當然每個有不同看法,但是事實上……好,因為時間到了,我直接講喔,這是現在各國的趨勢,如果我們不能夠在能源政策上位上做調整的話,我告訴你,你後面到最後你會越來越難,你的碳費到現在費率也定不出來,就是因為我們整體來講的話,你面臨很多的困難,以上。"},{"start":13207.25,"end":13217.755,"text":"好謝謝羅委員好謝謝羅志強委員接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接下來請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席事事麻煩有請薛部長"},{"start":13233.872,"end":13236.234,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":13257.228,"end":13285.866,"text":"放在農業縣彰化密度是全國最高對我覺得這樣子的確是有有這個檢討的空間啊好非常好那我們就來進一步檢討嘛既然有檢討的空間吼林佳龍總統府秘書長1月4號選舉以前跑到彰化去說吼說那個焚化爐吼要蓋啊是抹黑確定不會蓋林佳龍講的是不是真的"},{"start":13287.245,"end":13304.323,"text":"我想環評的這個部分我現在沒有扯到環評啦現在我在問林佳龍講的是不是真的他說中央沒有要再彰化再蓋經體焚化爐說要蓋的是抹黑確定不會蓋林佳龍講的是不是真的"},{"start":13304.964,"end":13310.146,"text":"事實上我覺得秘書呃這個總統秘書長講的他是認為說整個金頂他假如要混亂了要蓋還有很長的程序要走完先停一下齁是林佳龍說齁要蓋是抹黑確定不會蓋"},{"start":13322.751,"end":13348.662,"text":"你現在幫他解釋說還有很長的程序要走我沒有參與這一塊啦但是我好沒有關係啦或許啦林佳龍反正總統府秘書長管不到行政院嘛但下一位行政院的副院長鄭文燦就管不到行政院了他也是說啦抹黑的人應該要停止啊沒有要蓋焚化爐啊鄭文燦講的是不是真的"},{"start":13350.761,"end":13379.421,"text":"我還是同樣跟黃委員報告沒有關係因為鄭文燦不用到立法院來備詢他享有很大的權利但他不用到立法院來備詢麻煩部長開行政院院會的時候遇到鄭文燦副院長問他說副院長你當初在彰化做這個承諾有委員在衛環委員會問我說你講的是不是真的你可以當場跟鄭文燦求證他講的是不是真的"},{"start":13380.282,"end":13399.281,"text":"可以講話不用負責任喔選前一套選後一套選前騙到了票選後馬上翻臉這是一個負責任的政府應該有的作為嗎部長我想黃委員齁事實上陳秀寶陳委員在這一塊也非常我非常肯定陳委員啦他的努力"},{"start":13399.761,"end":13409.192,"text":"但我們現在在追究的是什麼我們現在追究的是行政院的高官行政院的副院長可以跑去彰化欺騙彰化鄉親嗎這是我的問題我沒有質疑陳委員喔"},{"start":13413.7,"end":13432.389,"text":"我非常肯定陳秀寶委員的努力阿他也反對阿但問題是什麼在彰化做承諾的是林佳龍阿是鄭文燦阿鄭文燦做這種承諾不用負責任嗎請教部長黃委員基本上齁到底金頂蓋的蓋不成齁我們就讓時間"},{"start":13434.57,"end":13460.911,"text":"繼續走下去看嘛,假如事實上終究沒快成。你講得非常好,讓時間走下去。現在大家就要中央政府一個態度出來。為什麼這個態度重要?我馬上跟部長報告。如果執政黨信守承諾,這個案子馬上就把它喊停了,我就是不會幹。那那一天,他們在開說明會的時候,相信不會這麼累。"},{"start":13462.213,"end":13480.134,"text":"那天去了多少鄉親啊現場全部都是黑衣人廠商找來的黑衣人我的老天啊台灣還是一個法治國家嗎我們的環評說明會裡面坐滿了黑衣人鄉親進不去耶"},{"start":13481.694,"end":13494.062,"text":"為什麼政府履行承諾重要政府如果當初履行承諾這些鄉親有需要這麼累嗎這些鄉親有需要在現場遭受這些黑衣人的威嚇嗎"},{"start":13496.276,"end":13516.627,"text":"給黃委員報告是說環評書裡面事實上經典有承諾他在開工之前一定要辦說明會要跟當地民眾去做溝通所以很明顯的這種假如如同黃委員剛剛所描述的這個現象因為我們還沒接到他們的會議記錄跟這個回報這是第二個層次的問題"},{"start":13520.21,"end":13527.006,"text":"剛剛我只是在回應你說齁你說程序繼續走下去讓我們繼續看下去最後會不會蓋層嘛"},{"start":13528.444,"end":13553.84,"text":"那我為什麼告訴部長說政府有承諾就應該履行你就不用讓鄉親這麼累嘛還要慢慢的走下去還要自己走到第一線去對抗這些黑衣人政府這樣做事負責任嗎?這樣對嗎?這是我的問題事實上這個問題的解決很簡單地方政府假如站出來先停一下喔中央政府做的承諾現在推給地方政府"},{"start":13554.915,"end":13578.244,"text":"蛤?事情是可以這樣講的喔?中央政府做了承諾推給地方政府說地方政府如果如何如何這件事就不會發生了這個態度不對吧我現在不是在幫王惠美縣長講話她有她該負的責任但你如果今天的說法是我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦做了承諾"},{"start":13579.224,"end":13608.682,"text":"我們接下來來看 彰化縣縣長王...王惠 還是王美惠 算了 王縣長他一定會履行鄭文燦的承諾這樣不對吧 這樣符合責任責任的原理嗎這個是兩回事啦對啊 你說得非常好 你終於承認是兩回事了現在我在吹救中央政府的責任雖然是兩回事 但是中央跟地方都同樣必須參與到金鼎開花案的這件事情啦"},{"start":13608.902,"end":13624.312,"text":"最後一點時間到了我就跟部長提醒一下這個是部長可以做的部長剛講得非常的好我來做如果環評的說明會裡面都是黑衣人鄉親沒有辦法表達意見我的立黨啊"},{"start":13624.952,"end":13648.702,"text":"我看完了以後這個說明會根本沒有像那苗栗縣之前就做過這樣的認定了我相信啦我們中央環境部的高度不會在對環評說明會這件事情上被黑衣人佔領的事情標準比苗栗縣還低部長你同不同意中央當然我們標準是會更高啦"},{"start":13649.321,"end":13673.46,"text":"好 我們拭目以待啦我希望齁今天部長在這邊我知道你很辛苦啦因為承諾也不是你做的齁鄭文燦做的你在這邊幫他飛鍋很無奈我也了解齁麻煩您到行政院院會的時候把我的意見轉達給鄭文燦副院長跟他說說到做到不要黃牛這樣好不好假如有機會的話你一定有機會的啦好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員好 謝謝接下來我們請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":13683.815,"end":13686.65,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請薛部長好 部長請"},{"start":13694.455,"end":13707.481,"text":"黃委員也特別提到彰化金鼎焚化爐的事件他們在前陣子開說明會我相信很多委員都關心我想請教說明會我是認為它是要過水因為當天"},{"start":13715.104,"end":13743.151,"text":"當天剛剛黃委員講的很多黑衣人就佔據整個說明會的這個空間那當地的居民他是沒辦法進到這個空間裡面的那當然就是說在地的委員陳秀寶委員他也關心這一件他有在現場有表達那我想請教部長如果當地的居民沒辦法很充分的來表達他們的意見的話那這樣的環評的一個說明會這樣是符合程序嗎"},{"start":13744.491,"end":13763.06,"text":"給黃委員報告根據環評法裡面的規定說明會它必須有一個程序其中之一就是要讓參議者登記去發言只要發言的時間不夠當然可以改成書面我們會根據看看經典它回覆給我們的"},{"start":13764.241,"end":13787.763,"text":"所以金主席現在有回覆你們了嗎?還沒有。還沒有。因為當晚是3月31啦。是。當晚是3月31。那我們會根據我們環境法規來看,他有沒有讓反對者或者說參議者當初登記到花園有沒有讓他表達意見的機會。那如果沒有,如果反對者沒有表達意見的話。那我們就不接受他的這個說明會。"},{"start":13789.278,"end":13803.456,"text":"好那我相信很多人就是地方民眾真的非常的關心這一件因為彰化彰化的這個焚化爐的密度真的是太高了尤其是在這個彰化工業區這一邊"},{"start":13805.618,"end":13827.409,"text":"章濱工業區、全興、縣西區這邊焚化爐真的密度太高了而且北有火力發電廠南有六清所以整個章化不論是章化福興的落農或者是當地的農民他們都非常的擔心萬一如果這個焚化爐再設下去之後其實對當地的落農業會有很大的影響"},{"start":13830.891,"end":13854.347,"text":"那當地的居民也沒辦法充分的表達他們的意見所以我希望這個環境部針對這一場的這個環評說明會應該要好好去思考一下他到底是指示過水不讓反對的意見來表達只是過水所以我希望就是說環境部你們收到資料之後應該要好好去這個審查"},{"start":13857.149,"end":13875.618,"text":"謝謝黃文的提醒另外今天特別列這個專題報告就是說我們很多的民眾尤其是中小企業他們對於未來要徵收這個碳費其實不傻傻部長你應該也知道"},{"start":13881.58,"end":13901.887,"text":"檢探專線到底發揮多大的功能我不是那麼清楚不然為什麼在這個地方的一些中小企業他們也會擔心就是說到底不知道要怎麼做到底他未來的所有的設施設備要怎麼去做改善所以我想請教部長針對你們的"},{"start":13904.708,"end":13924.579,"text":"這個有關2025年要開始徵收這個碳費那一些這個尤其是企業界尤其是中小企業如果大企業應該就沒有問題嘛那中小企業的話會有很多的這個疑慮尤其是他們如果他們的產品是銷歐美歐歐洲的話"},{"start":13925.6,"end":13947.506,"text":"他們會有很多的疑慮到底我們國家會到底怎麼去收這個碳費那我是不是請部長我們這個減碳專線到底有沒有發揮它的功能這點我是不是請我們這個蔡市長來回答一下好不好好 謝謝委員那其實我們成立的這個減碳專線現在每天大概都幾十通的電話民眾會進來詢問那當然我們同仁都是針對民眾的問題那他們關心的就是"},{"start":13953.308,"end":13954.689,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":13961.69,"end":13970.055,"text":"除了去整理了這些疑問我們也盡量在網站上公開之外那我們最近也正在規劃因為畢竟中小企業不是我們現在碳費徵收的對象所以我們現在跟經濟部合作是如何去協助讓這些中小企業能夠熟悉這個碳盤查的工作所以我們會最近也在跟經濟部一起"},{"start":13983.402,"end":14010.861,"text":"去增加這些相關的這個說明會還有課程的開設是所以現在目前中小企業不是你們徵收的這個對象你們是優先就是這個可能是大戶嘛是不是碳排的大戶那當然就是說這些中小企業他未來如果他的東西是銷歐盟的話其實他也會有這個壓力啊是他必須寄買憑證對啊對啊所以經濟部在這一塊事實上我所了解是"},{"start":14011.581,"end":14014.602,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":14031.251,"end":14044.545,"text":"當然他要跟國際競爭當然他就是自己要怎麼去讓更精進可是中小企業他可能沒有辦法自己去做這樣的一個譬如說你現在請他做碳盤廠"},{"start":14045.686,"end":14072.833,"text":"搞不好他自己也不清楚要怎麼盤查所以這個也是要我們環境部這邊去輔導那我是不是可以建議就是說如果有這個企業中小企業我現在講的不是大企業大企業我覺得那個是都沒有問題中小企業如果有這個需求的話是不是可以請這個環境部這邊尤其是在如果他們有主動跟你們要求的話是不是你們也可以到地方去說明"},{"start":14073.553,"end":14075.956,"text":"未來如果開始徵收碳費之後,會不會影響到經濟上或國際競爭力?"},{"start":14091.638,"end":14111.866,"text":"黃委員提得很好這個也是在某一個程度我們一直在這一塊必須去找到一個這個合適點就是說除了朝向我們淨零排放的目標路徑圖來完成之外我們也一定要讓我們的產業有競爭力因為台灣畢竟是一個出口為導向"},{"start":14113.847,"end":14132.839,"text":"因兩方面的角度不一樣所以才會讓我們在這期間當然會面臨一些挑戰在時間上假如沒有辦法如我們當初理想的預期可能也要請大家來稍微諒解一下"},{"start":14133.86,"end":14155.988,"text":"部長我想請教就是說我們現在開始當然這個碳費怎麼徵收你們還沒有確定那這個未來就是說如果企業繳交這個碳費那跟這個國際怎麼去對接或者是跟這個歐盟的這個西北是不是有這個抵檢這個我不清楚那會不會有這樣子的一個"},{"start":14157.788,"end":14158.089,"text":"議員提供的答案"},{"start":14175.994,"end":14197.263,"text":"所以變成說我們國家徵收的這個碳費到歐盟他也會認所以就不會有一個重複負擔的這種不會不會不會但是這兩個對象現在來講重疊不高啦是就是說西本以產品的這一塊那環境部基本上是針對排碳大戶這一塊裡面會有一點點重疊但是不會很多對"},{"start":14199.044,"end":14225.333,"text":"我是希望就是說未來我們這個碳費其實你們到現在都還沒有訂出來那你預計是明年2025年要開始徵收嗎那你這樣到底真的來得及嗎現在已經三月底了我實在是真的也很擔心而且大家都很關心啦真的是很關心所以部長你再講一次好嗎好我講一次就是說今年開徵啦"},{"start":14226.974,"end":14227.374,"text":"一月一號"},{"start":14248.697,"end":14277.368,"text":"不是本來事實上是今年今年起徵明年繳費繳碳費的概念是跟所得稅的概念一樣你去年所得收入多少你今年所以變成說2025年他繳的是2024年的這個碳費當初我們是期待是1、2月1號開始那現在也因為費率還沒有出來所以是有一些空間可以在"},{"start":14278.353,"end":14278.453,"text":"何時開始預算?"},{"start":14300.562,"end":14325.075,"text":"我請部長就是針對這個真的要趕快做一個決定啦因為真的大家都非常的關心啦那如果 了解對當然有另外一派的說法是說不要太倉促啦那當然有一派的說法是希望就趕快確定所以就希望環境部這邊真的盡快把這個確定下來也是好的啦好不好謝謝黃委員提起好謝謝"},{"start":14326.135,"end":14350.764,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員發言鄭正前委員不在我們請陳冠廷委員發言你好我們請部長好請教部長"},{"start":14355.718,"end":14374.352,"text":"臣委員好部長好部長我們今天討論的主題是碳權、碳費是那我們發現到就是目前納管對象主要還是以鋼鐵、化材、半導管的製造業為主是但是我覺得一個部分環境部可以多加注意的就是快時尚"},{"start":14375.546,"end":14403.762,"text":"那根據那個電商資訊公司那一些知名品牌的報告快時上零售每生產一件商品都會產生大概是11.5公斤的二氧化碳那二手的轉售計畫只能使其排放量大概減少0.7%那相對來說有一些品牌我就在這邊不把這些品牌講出來透過轉售計畫大概是可以減少約15%的碳排"},{"start":14404.542,"end":14419.879,"text":"所以基本上總結來說快時尚產業當然是想透過回收轉售等等的方式來降低它的足跡但是實際的成果會因為它這個衣物的材質屬於混合纖維物難以回收"},{"start":14420.579,"end":14442.897,"text":"或者是說二手的價格不髒加上來回運送的部分導致他又要更多碳排所以減碳的成果是有限的因為這個議題我也是長期蠻有興趣在關注的所以我還蠻希望說部長你可不可以針對快時上排碳的這個部分有什麼樣的看法跟有什麼樣的建議跟做法"},{"start":14443.49,"end":14443.77,"text":"環境部部長"},{"start":14461.508,"end":14464.409,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":14490.742,"end":14490.782,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":14502.216,"end":14523.694,"text":"那在這個不同的材質之間要去做回收事實上就面臨挑戰所以事實上環境部現在在包括從源頭減量跟綠色設計這一塊一直是希望鼓勵包括這個時尚業者將來的衣服要用單一的材質"},{"start":14525.215,"end":14528.277,"text":"議員會議的財值將在回收方面加速。"},{"start":14555.476,"end":14572.832,"text":"基本上就是希望透過資源回收基金的這一塊來提供誘因給這些業者他們願意去使用這個回收的這個紡織品再利用所以這個事實上是有一些誘因"},{"start":14573.573,"end":14594.84,"text":"主要我在這個國會那特別講這件事情是希望說提醒不管是每一個我們的政府機關也好還是一般民眾如果在看國會頻道的話那快時尚是透過快速的複製大量的生產價格當然低點可是他對環境所造成的影響是持續的所以"},{"start":14595.06,"end":14595.521,"text":"主席"},{"start":14611.983,"end":14635.175,"text":"基本上在國小的教育、國中的教育大概是做到回收這一塊從我們那一個年齡層開始對於二手醫的回收部分基本上已經不存在我們的視野裡面那我們唯一的印象就是偶爾經過某一個這個角落會看到一個二手醫的回收箱可是這些二手醫的回收箱通常外面都會用一個封條說已不收回收醫務"},{"start":14636.275,"end":14652.828,"text":"那它變成反而是造成景觀髒亂的一個地方為什麼因為大家不會把我們的二手衣物放在裡面大家會把垃圾放在裡面那所以針對不管是快食上或者是二手衣物的回收跟使用現在這一些二手衣物箱你們是怎麼規劃的"},{"start":14654.842,"end":14671.075,"text":"這一塊是不是請我們這個那署長來回答一下?除了如果說我們這個地方清潔隊他有些回收箱我們現在來推動我們的百貨業、零售業還有我們像UNIQLO這種單一的輔助業他設置回收箱那這樣就可以去回收一些更單一的材質那更利於我們的循環"},{"start":14672.028,"end":14698.881,"text":"所以沒有鼓勵這些百貨業者來做這個事情那主要是在哪一個地方?在臺北?因為我至少現在我們有頒布一個指引那目前大概有幾家的百貨業已經提出來申請那我們可以再去拓增找更多的百貨跟零售業一起來參與我希望可以盡速把指引變成到法律的層級那如果有相關的這個書面的報告可以給我的話我們也可以做相關的提案"},{"start":14699.241,"end":14699.341,"text":"請薛部長"},{"start":14728.573,"end":14747.178,"text":"在這裡我特別要提一下因為我們的溫室氣體減量如果依照氣候變遷因應法第25條所說的就是要按照環境部你們所訂定的這個自願減量方式我們也看到去年的10月12號有公開了13類143項的方法"},{"start":14757.526,"end":14768.941,"text":"自然碳會的部分其實是我比較關心的那我們看到你們公布的方法兩種一個是新種的新殖林一個是濕地那我上次質詢也提過"},{"start":14769.702,"end":14798.133,"text":"其實我已經看到很多的企業都在買土地為了要取得這樣的一個碳匯那質詢關心之下呢林保署呢我也很高興他們有提到對於這些既有的竹林既有的森林還有這些農業土地的管理也已經公告了這些方法所以想要請教部長這些林保署所提出來的方法什麼時候會納入到我們自願減量專案的可使用方法"},{"start":14798.473,"end":14801.594,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":14813.988,"end":14833.17,"text":"可以報告的以及可以被查驗的必須滿足MRV這三個條件之下所以部長因為時間有限我想知道什麼時候可以納入我是不是可以請我們這個蔡委員長來回答是跟委員報告因為這些方法學我們受理之後那我們也公開徵求就是"},{"start":14833.831,"end":14836.415,"text":"各界對於這些方法學的意見那麼預計從這個4月就會陸續召開專案小組的審查會你預估什麼時候可以納入"},{"start":14844.506,"end":14867.706,"text":"我們這個程序就是說必須要經過各界意見來討論因為大家也會擔心因為這些程序你們也走過啊所以才會公佈13類143項啊對那個跟委員報告就是說因為大家會關心這些方法學他去做了以後是不是會有對環境生態其他的影響所以您認為既有零竹林森林改進農業土地會有影響"},{"start":14869.406,"end":14883.856,"text":"因為他要去計算這個方法會取得的這個減碳量所以這個必須然後未來怎麼去監測所以就是沒有辦法預估什麼時候可以上路跟委員報告就是我們會跟農業部來密切的討論因為這個好那沒關係那到時候再一併給我報告好不好"},{"start":14886.257,"end":14909.702,"text":"好 謝謝為什麼我如此重視自然碳會尤其是森林我們看到國發會這個2050淨零排放規劃他有提到森林碳會他可以吸收22.5百萬噸那像這種工業碳會換燈管這種的可以吸收40.2百萬噸那另外我們從全球自願碳底換的市場交易量可以看到很明顯"},{"start":14911.022,"end":14938.463,"text":"最大宗還是林業跟土地的利用這是全球的資料那我現在想要說就是我們去年碳交所也揭牌啦然後那個時候環境部也宣稱訂出的碳交易對象呢將侷限有需求法人才能交易排除自然人理由不容像股票有炒作空間那雖然如此呢我們也來看一下"},{"start":14939.344,"end":14940.045,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":14950.299,"end":14977.919,"text":"湧風魚、華紙等等也有碳捕捉技術股、台泥等等綠能發電股、原金等等、碳判查股都有所以我要說的是其實我們辯簽因應法部長我們為的是環境嘛我也承認不是創造經濟利益嘛對不對好但是我想說你禁止了自然人進入交易市場就能有效的防止炒作嗎"},{"start":14979.441,"end":15002.929,"text":"我想這個是國際上也是這樣在做啦就是說好那部長我直接講我的想法因為時間有限給我們參考我是說我們可以預期原住民會陷入更危機我特別要談的就是土地會流失更流失這一些企業為了最大的吸碳量"},{"start":15003.959,"end":15007.82,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":15027.402,"end":15054.614,"text":"為了推動自然碳會政府應與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內自自然碳會該區域內新增碳會之相關權益應與原住民族共享涉及原住民族土地開發、利用或限制應與當地原住民族諮商並取得其同意我們在談公正轉型全球談氣候變遷都在談公正轉型但是我剛剛講的那個會不會落入?會"},{"start":15055.814,"end":15070.915,"text":"因為確實是很多的人未得取得碳費已經在圈地買地所以我請部長您看一下這是很諷刺的原住民傳統領域126萬公頃的話市價我們按照目前的抓碳量"},{"start":15073.793,"end":15088.731,"text":"原住民族的保留地17萬公頃的話價值是130億那些私有的保留地7萬公頃的話價值市價是54億但是我想說的就是我們原住民為地球這麼努力"},{"start":15090.182,"end":15104.252,"text":"可是我們看到我們的進法補償金每年3萬把剛才我講的這個用抓碳量國際碳權交易的價格他可以折合每一年一公頃碳權是8萬元"},{"start":15105.633,"end":15128.305,"text":"我們的淨法補償是一年一公頃3萬元所以我要特別請部長您幫個忙您是學者出身請環境部會同委員會一個月內就碳權交易跟碳費的收益提出原住民族權益維護及促進報告第一個我希望鼓勵輔導原住民的自然人或法人參與碳權的交易市場"},{"start":15129.505,"end":15151.632,"text":"針對原住民的土地限制,像淨法補償這些、國土保育這些、水資源含益這些給予符合市價的補償或回饋,訂定一個符合市場的標準。第三,研議企業或法人利用原住民土地取得碳匯的諮商同意比照礦業法,他們有訂定一個諮商同意的指引。好不好?部長。"},{"start":15153.013,"end":15155.195,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員接下來請牛許廷委員發言謝謝主席 薛部長有請請薛部長"},{"start":15181.049,"end":15206.805,"text":"部長午安今天針對碳定價機制有幾個問題要跟您就教國際上碳定價機制大概可以分成兩種第一種叫做總量管制跟排放交易也就是說針對它的排放量設定上限如果超過上限的受管制實體就要到沒有受到上限或未達上限的實體去購買所謂的排放配額就是碳權的一種那第二種叫做所謂的稅費制度"},{"start":15207.265,"end":15232.251,"text":"就直接針對價格做管制設定也就是說排放者付費要排就要付錢那氣候法34到36條其實是有授權總量管制跟排放交易但現在環境部是定調說碳費先行然後優先研擬相關的配套措施為什麼是採取碳費先行而不是採取總量管制請說明一下我想在總量管制那個部分剛剛劉委員也都講得很清楚總量管制"},{"start":15234.952,"end":15251.842,"text":"以歐盟為主這一塊那各位都知道事實上歐盟在ETS他已經實施很多年了所以他很有經驗他從2005年就開始在推了將近20年前那台灣你剛開始的時候我們碳錢交易所也是在去年8月7號才成立嘛"},{"start":15252.302,"end":15267.291,"text":"所以我們的這個所謂的infrastructure方面事實上是還沒有成熟那可是這個減碳又迫在眉睫所以碳費是最快的一個方法所以基本上是因為總管管制跟排放交易者門檻比較高難度比較高然後碳費比較單純"},{"start":15269.913,"end":15285.385,"text":"是這樣子的政策邏輯對不對?好那我現在就順著這個問題往下問喔稅費制度的優點它當然就是說容易嘛而簡單來講把這個費率定出來執行就好但是相對來講它的缺點就是說它沒有辦法像排放交易一樣去設定一些所謂的排放配額嘛它比較不好算"},{"start":15286.265,"end":15303.35,"text":"缺點就是單一能源密集排放者衝擊就非常大我相信這也是你們昨天開會開半天然後最後費率還是出不來很重要的一個原因對不對?謝謝牛委員非常體諒就是說這禮拜牽涉到我們怎麼去把總量管制以及所謂的免費配額的概念"},{"start":15304.19,"end":15331.116,"text":"去轉移到碳費的這個機制的設算裡面。所以才會有自主減量加上優惠率率的概念嗎?對,所以我現在就要講就是第29條你談了所謂的自主減量計畫嘛。也就是說我如果配合政府去做自主減量計畫,包含復排放技術,包含提升能源效率的各種製程,包含使用再生能源以及等等。在這個過程中只要可以減量,你就可以核准它所謂的優惠費率嘛,對不對?是。那這件事情的實務上遇到的困難是什麼?部長。"},{"start":15332.537,"end":15348.027,"text":"實務上的困難等我們把整個費率公告之後那搭配我們的收費辦法我們就來執行了那事實上昨天的委員會他們也訂113到114然後114到117然後118之後事實上我們就是會另外進入2030年的這個"},{"start":15359.524,"end":15385.373,"text":"你覺得產業界現在對於你這樣子的一個配套跟規劃,他們是很放心還是很焦慮?我想大家當然都是焦慮啦,因為不確定的事情總是會焦慮,這是人之常情。對嘛,所以這就是我本期今天要講的,自主減量計畫也許對於中型或是小型企業來講,它的易達性可能比較高,然後也比較划算。可是問題是,比如說我舉個例子,比如說中鋼,你按照現在的碳費規定的話,中鋼一年要多多少成本?"},{"start":15387.662,"end":15404.767,"text":"我們應該是以數十億甚至是百億來計嘛,對不對?完全沒有自主減量去享受優惠利率,它一年就會...本期要提醒一下,你現在自主減量計畫,大家可能的焦慮點在於就是說當然有這些技術,可是你要讓這些技術落地,你要去做"},{"start":15405.447,"end":15407.449,"text":"中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":15424.122,"end":15431.746,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討"},{"start":15448.809,"end":15471.448,"text":"希望能夠兼顧各個面相當然所以我們在提制度減量事實上是把它拉到2030年所以業界有足夠的時間去因應那我們在3年前事實上當初的環保署就已經通知這些業者說未來會實施碳匯他們是屬於排碳大戶"},{"start":15472.068,"end":15473.869,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項"},{"start":15491.815,"end":15506.573,"text":"那我們理想上是當然是希望說2030年之後經過這這個5、6年的試行期間是不是到那時候已經成熟那就缺到碳稅因為今天時間有限我們做兩個小結論"},{"start":15507.534,"end":15529.209,"text":"第一點這個事情知識體大因為要如果要完善本期是建議加強溝通尤其現在理論上來講應該看守期間我今天還沒有很多時間去深究說新的政府對這件事情的態度你們對這件事是完全支持或者是他有新的想法那既然是在看守的任內應該是加強溝通研討不宜專善這本期第一個提醒第二個溝通的過程中本期是建議就合理平衡兩套機制"},{"start":15530.39,"end":15556.924,"text":"既然你連簡單的東西你搞不好都要到2030你的相關的配套才會更完整然後才會有比較好的樣子那是不是乾脆連總量管制跟排放交易的這些配套措施你一併研討也許有好的結果也許可以結長補短讓一個本來很難落地的東西可以提早落地可以順利兼顧啦這一點在溝通跟研討的過程之中希望環境部查納雅言好嗎好謝謝牛委員的這個指教我們來努力好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":15559.835,"end":15560.855,"text":"楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員"},{"start":15585.455,"end":15586.035,"text":"現在在調查委員的時間"},{"start":15611.249,"end":15622.853,"text":"對外是公布說下個月會再開會不會調查委員的時間你已經比你原先在第一季要公布還沒辦法公布那慢了之後你們預計怎麼做"},{"start":15625.176,"end":15653.791,"text":"給委員報告我想雖然的確是有稍微慢一點但是你們預計什麼時候要再開會我剛給委員講現在在調查委員的時間所以你還沒有預計時間我們就希望慢了就慢了不會我想即使慢有一點延緩讓他更周延這個理由不充足因為你原本自己設定的時間點那我們希望一個行政部門你自己公佈於"},{"start":15655.831,"end":15661.953,"text":"公布的訊息應該要去落實,除非你有什麼特殊狀態。除非你有什麼特殊狀態。所以本下還是要請教,你們預計說你現在在問委員的時間,"},{"start":15671.977,"end":15694.534,"text":"早做晚做都是要做因為業者都很緊張而且茫茫人不知所措我的成本到底要怎麼加真的的確非常的緊張所以本席想要請教那麼你們目前除了問委員的時間有沒有設定你預計可能會在什麼時候幾月份的時候來公佈呢"},{"start":15695.735,"end":15712.084,"text":"當然在理想上我們是希望盡快這個所謂的盡快也沒有辦法滿足這個楊委員的這個想要的答案不是滿足我要的答案而是人民需要這個答案事實上楊委員應該知道我們這一次碳稅徵收的對象"},{"start":15712.824,"end":15713.044,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15738.357,"end":15738.537,"text":"主席"},{"start":15759.863,"end":15773.683,"text":"本期跟你討論的是一個政府它是合作的那這個橫向的聯繫當然是非常重要但是一個重點關鍵你必須各盡本質而不是你沒有達到然後來說這個"},{"start":15775.486,"end":15796.357,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":15797.318,"end":15821.332,"text":"因為現在包括很多的外債因素貿易壁壘等那這一些的條件我們究竟要怎麼樣讓企業都能夠安心重視在原先的規劃4月底有所再調整但是我們臺灣的三個頭家真正的他們很負責任的只要你一個政府政策下來他們都緊張兮兮啊"},{"start":15821.892,"end":15849.113,"text":"接著要跟你討論一個制度要怎麼樣跟國際接軌才不會造成整個業者在國內繳交碳費呢那麼他們目前有一個非常重要也就是CPICPI在你碳費你們的研討當中是不是有納入CPI這個必要因素"},{"start":15851.063,"end":15865.371,"text":"委員報告在這個之前我們這個未完委員會裡面就通過一個提案請環境部召開費利審議委員會的時候把CPI納入考量所以這個也是在某個程度"},{"start":15865.951,"end":15875.819,"text":"這個是我們委員的要求那你們會不會納入本席要問這個你們在考慮的時候會不會納入我們請委員在審議費力的時候應該考量進去也包括我們希望考量電價因為產業跟民生的物資觀光、中油公司它電價一漲它必須今年度要增加8億自來水公司要10億我們的產業界"},{"start":15896.527,"end":15900.993,"text":"我聽到您的聲音所以有把CPI來納入所以要請教現在我們的產業界很緊張的就是說我們如果不趕快制定趕快跟國際接軌我在國內繳了碳費我在國外也可能還要再繳"},{"start":15916.591,"end":15941.078,"text":"會不會有這種現象?這個是產業界必須要聽的。國內繳碳費,到其他國家還要不要再繳?請教。不會,不會是重物啦。但是我跟楊委員報告,我們現在收碳費這一塊,他們真正要受到西本的影響,這兩個對象事實上是很大的不一樣。"},{"start":15941.658,"end":15968.893,"text":"所以是不會的因為產業界一定要聽這一句話很重要他們一直很緊張最後一個議題你現在要準備開始隨著國際碳稅的開增那麼我們也要上路ESG的課程在坊間越來越多永續、淨零、碳權、碳管理等等那相對的在你們還沒有宣布之前這一些的內容你有沒有去盤查"},{"start":15970.114,"end":15983.904,"text":"有沒有正確?因為現在所有的產業光光上課都沒有什麼大家都很激勵所以本席也具體建議我們知己環境部你們本身的資訊是最正確的"},{"start":15985.565,"end":16002.47,"text":"讓你們預計要怎麼做有沒有跟學校來合作從大學的雲端大家來開課程培訓這些檢探專業的人才讓綠林的人才呢都能夠真正的是正確的訊息來給我們的產業界給陽文報告這"},{"start":16007.359,"end":16032.111,"text":"環境部的國環院事實上都有開這些班當然可能沒有辦法滿足到廣大受眾的這個所以就是外面就很多假借ESG假借減碳那你知道這個問題那怎麼辦呢事實上我們現在有積極來強化我們的量能同時也跟很多大學端有一些合作去加強好不好"},{"start":16032.791,"end":16055.657,"text":"因為聽到的每一個都不一樣產業界告訴我我是要聽誰的我這聽了也很難過好不好是不是要說明一下好 謝謝我們去加強這一塊嘛好不好正確的信息給產業我們有自私的教材讓大家知道上哪些課不會讓市場很混亂再教這些東西所以我們規劃一些自私的教材課程"},{"start":16056.377,"end":16056.617,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":16078.064,"end":16094.746,"text":"主席我想請薛部長請薛部長部長辛苦了還沒有吃午餐不會不會沒問題我盡快一點我想每一個委員包括本席都非常想要了解為了達到這個減碳目的目前全球實施的碳定價制度的國家中"},{"start":16095.347,"end":16115.561,"text":"依據世界銀行公佈的資料有37個採用ETS的制度、37個採用碳稅的制度那臺灣既不是ETS也不是碳稅臺灣是碳費制度而且是獨佈全球的制度請問環境部我們採用這個完全不同的制度的原因是為什麼?"},{"start":16116.842,"end":16138.182,"text":"我想臺灣有我們特殊的條件因為剛剛講到這個張委員提到前面的歐盟採用的ETS的制度人家從2005年就開始那臺灣事實上去年8月7號碳權教育所才成立所以我們基本上沒有那個條件假如國外或者我們國內的廠商要買碳權並還沒有承受"},{"start":16140.964,"end":16142.486,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":16158.945,"end":16158.965,"text":"參議院議員"},{"start":16177.737,"end":16178.397,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":16207.096,"end":16210.558,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":16224.586,"end":16236.76,"text":"是,我下一個問題就是有沒有可能我們一意孤行的特別碳費制度得不到國際的認同反而導致企業被科徵第二次的碳稅是不是形同一頭牛剝兩層皮?"},{"start":16238.7,"end":16256.81,"text":"不會 張委員跟你報告齁我們沒關係我聽你講不會我覺得可以那現在電費已經上漲那對各個企業都造成不小的壓力對民眾也造成很大的壓力那未來碳費實施後是不是有可能會下一步的導致我們物價產生波動這一點環境部有做過評估嗎"},{"start":16261.733,"end":16283.149,"text":"事實上也謝謝張委員你又講到另外一個跟其他委員事實上這個比較不一樣的看法就是說環境部對昨天費力審議委員會沒有做成費力的決定在某一個程度事實上也是呼應剛剛張委員的這些顧慮我覺得委員反而是很理智的來考量是啊"},{"start":16283.689,"end":16312.054,"text":"非常理智啊所以這一方面的評估如果相關報告也交付本席那我們目前是以什麼條件來當作首批要被徵收碳費的企業呢大概又有幾家我們大概是550齁這個家跟廠這個算起來大概550他們的排碳量是超過2.5萬噸欸企業大概是什麼樣子的行業大概是400多家的企業是不是電力"},{"start":16313.534,"end":16336.993,"text":"港鐵、煉油、水泥、半導體、石化業都包含在內吧?對,它的排碳量基本上以製造業跟電力業為主幾乎都是這一塊這個裡面本席最最擔心的就是台電請問部長知道台電佔全國的總排放量多少嗎?我知道說他們將近9000萬噸每年本席跟你分享"},{"start":16342.173,"end":16343.994,"text":"他們昨天還沒有進入到談實質到底"},{"start":16362.615,"end":16371.599,"text":"臺電是目前全國碳排最大中大概是1.22億公噸那所以呢假設我之前看報導是說320塊一公噸的話臺電每年就要額外支出390億"},{"start":16380.905,"end":16407.725,"text":"如果假設是環團建議的每度500元的話臺電每年還要再額外支出600億那環境部會向臺電收這筆錢嗎?給委員報告這裡面我們跟臺電收取的碳費的部分假如他的發電是供應給一般民眾社會企業的話事實上會被扣除大概90%會被扣除"},{"start":16409.486,"end":16425.943,"text":"所以你會有一個特別的機制因為本席最最擔心的是這個額外課收的碳費最後還是要全民買單因為我們才剛剛漲了電價假設明年又實施碳費那是不是又要再漲一次呢否則台電怎麼去額外負擔這600億400至600億的這個費用"},{"start":16431.007,"end":16456.362,"text":"所以謝謝委員體諒就是說環境部昨天委員會他們沒有提出最後的決定在某個程度我覺得我們的碳費費利審議委員會也是考量到這一點那台電我相信台電會很謝謝張委員也特別為他們發聲沒有這一點我不是幫台電發聲我是幫人民發聲你以為台電他要額外花這600億他不用跟人民收錢喔"},{"start":16457.764,"end":16459.714,"text":"四、現在已經萬物齊掌了掛號費還無上限"},{"start":16462.757,"end":16490.605,"text":"對不對?所以我現在這樣問你,碳費先行這句口號是不是隱含先行之後後行要做什麼?有沒有可能未來會朝向碳稅發展?未來是朝碳稅的方向發展。所以碳費只是一個過渡期。我非常贊成,一定要課碳稅。然後另外呢,這個碳費呢,我另外比較擔心的是這個碳費之後,現在暫時既然是暫行,他怎麼用?他未來怎麼使用?"},{"start":16491.965,"end":16518.466,"text":"給張文報告事項7號法裡面都有明定他未來使用的用途包括公正轉型本席比較擔心的是他成為一個什麼溫室氣體管理基金他成立基金會不會變成環境部的小金庫不會不會放心好了這個會跨部會大家共同那最後本席還是希望支持部長朝國際潮流碳稅轉型由國家統一收稅統一運用是謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝張文謝謝"},{"start":16522.768,"end":16548.858,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員接下來請游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在接下來請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在接下來請陳瑩委員發言謝謝主席麻煩請薛部長跟蔡署長蔡署長"},{"start":16555.29,"end":16565.153,"text":"最近碳費徵收的問題受到社會各界的關注。次長跟蔡署長最近2月24日參加一項由台大風險中心針對碳費徵收所舉辦的研討會,參加人數大爆滿。"},{"start":16572.132,"end":16575.073,"text":"從參加人數顯示,未來碳費的徵收要怎麼收?收多少?實在是牽動企業與環團的敏感神經。"},{"start":16597.057,"end":16616.562,"text":"而且在攸關我國的國家的重大政策跟經濟發展的國際競爭力所以部長你覺得說這個碳費的徵收應該要多一點公平性、科學性還是要多一點政治性跟選擇性呢?這個答案當然很清楚一定是公平性跟科學性"},{"start":16618.402,"end":16621.663,"text":"審議委員提出,費率審議應該以充分科學證據及國際經驗為基礎,在相對相關資訊有充分了解下,再進行費率的審議討論。"},{"start":16640.931,"end":16656.248,"text":"可見他就是沒有看到你們有充分的科學證據也沒有看到你們向國際取經的意願才會點出這個很嚴重的不足那如果說應該多一點公平性跟科學性那我就先請教一下這個事務官層級的蔡署長"},{"start":16658.522,"end":16661.584,"text":"2.5萬噸以下免徵是否維持?您當時的回應是聽取研討會各界建議之後會在審慎思考"},{"start":16673.215,"end":16687.455,"text":"當初為什麼一開始有這個2.5萬噸免徵的規劃?你的依據是什麼?那這個應該是一個屬於比較科學性公平性的問題。那不然說為什麼不是2萬噸也不是3萬噸的數據?"},{"start":16690.433,"end":16698.362,"text":"跟委員報告這個當時環境部會提出來2.5萬噸以下不計入碳費的徵收最主要是考慮到我們從開始做溫室氣體的盤查就是以2.5萬噸為門檻"},{"start":16703.496,"end":16712.118,"text":"那麼在經過部內的討論之後我們才規劃就是說這個2.5萬噸有這個免費對然後我就問你說2.5萬這個數據是怎麼來的啊這個就是因為我們考慮到這個盤查的這個門檻是2.5萬噸那在國際間在實施這個排放量的這個計算的時候通常也會以2.5萬噸來做一個門檻好那"},{"start":16729.182,"end":16749.51,"text":"那現在是這樣,就是說研討會2月24號嘛,到現在,那你們的這個切入署的這個審慎思考之後有沒有復案或者是其他結論?跟委員報告,因為各界當然對於這個2.5萬噸有不同的期待跟想法,那目前我們在規劃這個碳費收費辦法的時候,"},{"start":16751.611,"end":16763.444,"text":"也會考慮到參考其他國家的做法有這個包括這個轉型過度的碳洩漏的這些相關的思考所以我們目前會綜合不會說全部通通都2.5萬噸免徵"},{"start":16767.085,"end":16788.57,"text":"所以過了一個月正在做這個規劃跟調整當中所以你是怎麼調上調還是下調就是不會說所有的這些被徵收對象都有這個2.5萬噸的免徵的這樣一個試用會有不同的行業別不同的考量所以接下來大家又要緊張到底是哪些行業"},{"start":16789.81,"end":16804.738,"text":"是這樣不是這樣我們正在這個碳費徵收辦法裡面在做規範好我想是這樣這場會議有一個被提出了問題就是業界普遍認為啦這個碳費徵收草案好像越修越複雜"},{"start":16805.819,"end":16823.764,"text":"那大家都在觀望選擇這個低碳轉型似乎是一個遙不可及的目標那因為大家都不知道說他們現在這個技術可不可以達到那轉型的成本會不會過高所以呢大家就靜觀其變以不變應萬變所以到最後什麼都沒變"},{"start":16827.567,"end":16853.228,"text":"呃這個他沒變也不敢轉型所以就變成有可能變成你們收了一堆碳費結果這個排碳卻沒有減少那環境部就是說你們收了上百億的碳費未來可能收了上百億的碳費未來可能收了上百億的碳費啊然後你們就點碳成金那成了你們的大金庫那請問說收了這麼多的費用那在未來你們到底有什麼樣的規劃"},{"start":16855.65,"end":16879.43,"text":"呃,給陳委員報告,事實上氣候法裡面都寫得非常清楚環境部將來即使是負責這個基金他也是各部會都有委員在裡面要怎麼使用必須根據氣候法的13項來進行所以我想他是有一個法制的這個基礎在那邊那我在這邊也跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":16880.591,"end":16897.56,"text":"臺灣在追求2050淨零這一塊事實上碳費的徵收雖然其他國家沒有採用都是以碳稅所以事實上我們長期的中長期的目標也是碳稅碳費只是一個過渡期所以過渡期當然我們考量到臺灣整個產業的結構我們過去在這個淨零排放這一塊"},{"start":16904.023,"end":16921.134,"text":"推動的經驗覺得現階段以碳費來實施專款專用讓業界可以直接去自主減量或者採用這個歐盟的SBT的這個科學概念的方法事實上是比較好的啦"},{"start":16921.254,"end":16946.208,"text":"好,我想我給那個部長很完整的時間做一個完整的回答我們也很高興聽到說現在的碳費是一個過渡時期未來會往碳稅的方向來走那也很高興聽到就是會根據這個氣候法的這個就是說未來這些費用、碳費的部分就是也會協助大家去做一個減碳的規劃吧"},{"start":16949.811,"end":16965.062,"text":"施次長除了是環境部的次長以外還是碳費審議會的首屆召集人通常我們提到的時候應該會自己上來對不對OK好"},{"start":16967.182,"end":16995.376,"text":"有問題要請教市市長現在就講到他了啊市長在會議上有表示溫室氣體盤查本身就是一個減量工具那環境部你調降應盤查公告的排放門檻這句話本席有點不太了解你可不可以解釋一下為什麼盤查就可以減量了因為本席認為說溫室氣體如果按照你這句話的解釋溫室氣體盤查本身應該是一個收費工具才對啊"},{"start":16995.976,"end":17001.221,"text":"因爲了解排放狀況,他比較能夠知道說比如說我今天是哪一個燃料用的比較多,還是我今天是屬於用電比較多,所以當他比較清楚透過盤查來確定排放量比較多的是"},{"start":17017.523,"end":17017.543,"text":"議員會議中"},{"start":17035.134,"end":17060.822,"text":"你是不是這樣講嗎?還是哪一家媒體害你?你要不要講清楚?沒有沒有沒有沒有因為大家的報導其實就是很客觀啦那可能我當初說的不夠精準喔那你要不是我跟你講喔你講的不清楚媒體卻很清楚的報導你講的所以這個時候你就要跳出來趕快講清楚不然我就會覺得查完了字面上這樣子查完了就減量了那大家都不用再收費啦因為減量工具確實是有優勢因為我這樣問是說"},{"start":17063.383,"end":17086.158,"text":"其實是反映了盤查工具的客觀性跟公正性因為難道我們盤查的越多就可以減量越多如果是這樣子的話會不會有盤查錯誤那次長我就再借用你的話再問一下我們將來要如何建立一套大家都可以接受而且可以幸福的盤查的就減量的工具呢"},{"start":17087.435,"end":17110.127,"text":"首先跟委員報告因為減量工具確實如委員所說的啦他大概就是屬於要用碳稅或者是要用總量管制跟交易所以我這樣說法並不是很精準謝謝委員提出那這個盤查的部分因為盤查其實目前國際上包括這個其他國家的做法都會是一個有點像是類似國際標準的這個框架"},{"start":17111.207,"end":17117.934,"text":"來做盤查就是來確認溫室氣體的排放量所以這個盤查的工具依我國的規範其實也是跟著國際規範來走"},{"start":17120.008,"end":17142.816,"text":"應該不會有這個錯誤的盤查工具跟委員說好謝謝就是提醒你那應該兩位可以先請回座部長部長我繼續問一下最後請問部長就是說一個可能偏向政治性或選擇性的問題為什麼即將開放的碳費可以抵歐盟的CBAN那國內的這個自願減量的碳權卻不行"},{"start":17144.522,"end":17172.369,"text":"想請教一下部長說這是真的嗎還是沒有定案因為事實上在這塊我們有兩種一種是SBT那一塊事實上歐盟在採用就比較有可能被這個認可但是自主減量是企業因為他達不到SBT就是科學基礎的減量方法他變成自己去設定自己的減量目標那這個就比較說真的不符合歐盟的那個需求"},{"start":17173.209,"end":17189.166,"text":"那這樣子被認可的可能性就會降低很多。我們鼓勵他們用SBT的方式。我們鼓勵企業採用SBT,但是人家那個要求標準真的很高。"},{"start":17189.927,"end":17204.787,"text":"所以又開另外一個等於說一條路徑讓我們國內的企業去提自主減量然後再採用優惠的匯率但是優惠的匯率會比你採用SBT的那個稅稍微低一點"},{"start":17205.868,"end":17210.19,"text":"衛生環境部部長有規劃第一階段適用的三種抵碳方法嗎?第一種國內的自願性減碳包括有自願減量專案、抵換專案還有掀起專案那部長"},{"start":17232.819,"end":17242.572,"text":"你們到底對自己規劃的專案有沒有信心?有沒有辦法爭取抵充歐盟的CBAN?還是說此事涉及到其他的因素?"},{"start":17247.931,"end":17267.922,"text":"這塊我們實際來努力這塊因為不只是環境部的工作環境部還是以碳位跟減碳這塊為主事實上大家一直很關心以及陳委員關心的西半那一塊事實上跟經濟部關係更密切因為它產品要輸出到歐盟去要接受人家"},{"start":17271.644,"end":17290.857,"text":"主要是說因為減底的方法的第三種指定目標跟自主減量計畫也就是企業執行自主減量計畫例如說轉換低碳燃料提升能效使用再生能源等措施而且達到指定目標者可享優惠費率"},{"start":17292.358,"end":17319.369,"text":"可是呢就在前幾天桃園市政府廢止了三家SRF再生能源產業的三家工廠的這個入園同意函那這些工廠他們為了配合這個國家政策先期已經投注了幾十億的經費那我請問部長這樣子的結果這樣的處理是一個政治考量還是一個科學根據"},{"start":17321.275,"end":17347.774,"text":"那這樣的處理到底是誰打臉誰?第一張善政打臉鄭文燦第二桃園市環保局打臉你們環境部還是第三張子敬打臉總統?部長你如何看待這件事?我想這件事情各個部會跟地方政府有他各自的前線那桃園市政府他使用他自己的前線去做他的事情我們當然尊重了"},{"start":17348.978,"end":17372.263,"text":"事實上這個在去年大家為了這些案子會味洋洋的時候那時候桃園市政府就應該出來採取動作了不過當然這個現在採取動作他同樣還是我們尊重他的這個職權所以部長講到後來你也是只能尊重啦但是我告訴你我們尊重歸尊重齁尊重的結果可能就是在未來還有誰"},{"start":17374.383,"end":17375.163,"text":"蘇貞昌議員蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":17397.196,"end":17420.795,"text":"我相信說環境部在未來會秉持專業來妥善的規劃跟處理啦那剛剛部長也講說這個是階段性的一個過程所以也希望你們早一點說清楚講明白那該尊重的時候尊重那該有動作的時候就要有動作該處理就要處理阿不然就淪為這個吹牛而已好謝謝好謝謝陳委員好謝謝陳穎委員接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":17434.973,"end":17437.936,"text":"謝謝主席。主席請立下薛部長。請薛部長"},{"start":17443.008,"end":17470.653,"text":"部長我們很多的稅收跟功課大概都是預淨與增那碳費大概本身的概念大概也是這樣子只是很多東西就是沒有辦法淨那我們希望透過碳費的徵收來達到減碳的功能的目標"},{"start":17472.835,"end":17481.908,"text":"第二次的碳費費率審議昨天已經召開了公總有在前天就表示說"},{"start":17485.247,"end":17507.392,"text":"課徵碳費當然會涉及產業競爭力跟國際貿易公平的重要議題為了要保持產業的競爭力同時省省控制通膨跟物價的穩定所以他們大概有提了幾大建議那我現在就是"},{"start":17508.712,"end":17522.836,"text":"第一個問題請教部長就是說針對碳費費率的制定公總的建議是先低後高才分段減動滾動減淘那部長對於這樣子的主張"},{"start":17529.332,"end":17552.364,"text":"我們循序漸進這個是大家的共識所謂的先低到底多低這個是還有討論空間大概是這個方向絕對是循序因為要跟世界國際接軌所以這個方向絕對清楚我們現在在碳稅的部分應該算是走在還算蠻前面的應該是怎麼樣應該在國際上還算是走在"},{"start":17558.837,"end":17585.635,"text":"我個人的感覺當然這個可能也很多人不認同我覺得我們並沒有落後國際因為台灣的情況也跟國外不一樣特別台灣事實上在某一個程度靈活性以及我們的產業以出口導向以製造業為主我們應該納進去考量不是一昧的從某一個角度當然我也很認同環團以台灣環境永續的角度來思考問題這個我們也要給環團一些肯定"},{"start":17591.178,"end":17606.423,"text":"團體有團體存在的目標跟功能行政部門當然必須要考慮的必須要更全面譬如說環團不用考慮到出口競爭力還有國內的通膨等等問題行政機關必須"},{"start":17620.424,"end":17645.601,"text":"我們假如課稅以後必須要兼顧產業的國際競爭力還有就是國際貿易的公平性跟一致性產業在國際上主要的競爭對手目前沒有徵收的碳費項目我們徵收的項目多嘛"},{"start":17646.454,"end":17674.233,"text":"事實上我們徵收說真的對象事實上是不高因為我們是針對碳排量2.5萬噸每年才徵收這樣子也才將近500家左右550個廠跟家合起來所以這個比例來講真的對這個一般包括中小企業或者民生的影響事實上不是那麼大但是"},{"start":17674.813,"end":17677.056,"text":"我們的意思是說我們徵收的項目跟國際接軌的情況"},{"start":17693.29,"end":17715.897,"text":"有沒有很大的落差?不會有太大的落差,我們是以排碳量嘛當然先期是以製造跟電力業者那未來會漸漸把門檻往下降今年譬如說今年是2.5萬噸嘛那我們事實上有考慮兩年後這個應該要往下降很可能更低的一個門檻"},{"start":17716.837,"end":17724.932,"text":"沒有落差是不是就表示我們出口的時候因為台灣多數的製造業其實還是以出口為導向出口的時候比較不會有"},{"start":17728.12,"end":17754.512,"text":"一頭牛剝兩層皮的情況在國內課一次然後譬如說歐盟這一點我們就是說國內繳交之後獲得憑證事實上他就可以到歐洲去提獎對這個這個一定要一定要注意要不然這個很快就會就會減損我們國際農業商的競爭力謝謝委員的這個指教是我們會那這樣子的話就就有有清楚到欸"},{"start":17756.816,"end":17767.018,"text":"溫室氣體的檢驗機構我們現在國內合格的有14家根據歐盟的碳邊境調整機制的規則歐盟現在只承認歐盟碳交易機制認可的驗證單位的報告我們國內這14家有沒有得到歐盟的認可"},{"start":17786.798,"end":17791.185,"text":"它事實上是一個國際機構認證的,我們是台灣是TAF,全國認證基金會經過認證,它是國際通用的。"},{"start":17801.482,"end":17821.392,"text":"那就像剛才講的我因為時間的關係所以我就因為台電也算是在第一階段就徵收碳費可能也就會影響到民生一般的用電的電費"},{"start":17826.055,"end":17848.472,"text":"這個就是我剛才講的團體跟行政機關之間的差異給委員報告台電這個供應我們民生的用電這塊事實上台電是不用繳碳費所以他沒有理由用這個藉口去增加碳費增加電費就是他供應給"},{"start":17851.476,"end":17854.297,"text":"部長最後一個問題這是澎湖是一個四面環海的縣很多漁民而我們現在環境影響評估就是"},{"start":17879.33,"end":17898.068,"text":"評估的項目都只有限於既有的資料蒐集既有的資料蒐集其實沒有辦法很清楚的說服說服漁民對於海洋譬如說離岸風車"},{"start":17901.579,"end":17905.165,"text":"衛生環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":17915.698,"end":17940.452,"text":"該法開發行為環境影響評估的作業準則裡面在加入調查項目裡面加入對於漁業的影響跟現有資料不同它現在就是只有限定必須要提供現有的資料現有的資料大概各項統計其實政府也有相關單位也有這個並沒有說服力應該要有"},{"start":17945.769,"end":17968.23,"text":"這一項投資這一項開發到底對日後對於海洋所產生的的影響在哪裡?謝謝楊文的提醒喔因為噴霧它畢竟是屬於離島一躍對居民的生計是非常重要它跟台灣本島是比較不一樣台灣本島它的機會各方面比較多所以我非常認同楊文剛剛"},{"start":17969.531,"end":17995.54,"text":"提到的這個問題就是說在澎湖、周遭其他離島也是一樣在做這個開發的時候的確應該要多傾聽當地的居民的聲音當地地方政府的聲音請聽地方政府的聲音然後也必須要做出對日後的影響因為他們基本上是靠海維生因為這個我最後講一個觀念就是說"},{"start":17997.801,"end":18015.391,"text":"三個離島線大概一頁都非常重要可是三個離島線都在推低碳島所以我們也很希望能夠有綠能的發展可以在離島線發展得很好而這兩者之間現在存有很大的"},{"start":18016.351,"end":18017.472,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束"},{"start":18044.542,"end":18046.783,"text":"請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。"},{"start":18065.451,"end":18085.299,"text":"進行討論事項總共4案請一併宣讀討論事項審查環境部含為中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結案書面報告事案第一案第二項決議二淨零排放科技預算凍結200萬元第二案第二項決議三氣候變遷業務預算凍結200萬元第三案第四項決議三化學物質管理業務預算凍結500萬元第四項"},{"start":18093.982,"end":18122.432,"text":"第4案、第4項決議7化學物質管理業務向下風險管控預算凍結50萬元宣讀完畢有關討論事項環境部主管預算凍結報告案總共有4案那我們現在先從第一案第一案有無異議沒有那這個同意動之並提報願會那第二案有沒有異議沒有異議沒有意見"},{"start":18134.148,"end":18134.449,"text":"請教一下部長"},{"start":18140.011,"end":18155.319,"text":"本期是支持要解凍的可是這邊有一個問題請教一下部長就是歐盟已經事行一樣像剛才這樣子就是說我這個問題剛剛部長有講過那我利用解凍案的討論再問一次就是因為碳"},{"start":18166.328,"end":18168.193,"text":"歐盟碳邊境的調整"},{"start":18170.239,"end":18198.627,"text":"我們怎麼去避免國內的廠商的商品在國內已經課一次稅然後到了歐盟再課一次這個問題事實上歐盟的法規他有講就是說在國內取得這個憑證等於說一個證明說他已經繳碳費就像剛剛部長講的我們的認證機構也都是國際認證的是是是是所以我想那個倒是不會重複"},{"start":18200.506,"end":18228.845,"text":"那也請部長就是說碳稅徵收了以後其實它還是真的有可能造成綠色通膨必要的時候請部長這邊看由行政院召集發布會的這個可能不是你環境部單獨的問題可是這個我們還是要注意一下本席是支持解凍的"},{"start":18230.473,"end":18230.954,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":18246.717,"end":18268.998,"text":"第二案吼我們是你這個碳費的訂定做延宕吼,到現在還沒有一個結論吼所以我們是我們主張第二案要繼續動然後其他1134案我們沒有意見那再來就是我們屏東吼要納入碳交易的那個吼"},{"start":18270.539,"end":18288.352,"text":"早上我講的,在民洋大佛這些化學品的地方,要很詳細、扎實地把它登錄出來,不然消防員到那邊也不曉得那是銀子還是幣子,去錄GV就卡住了,複雜,這個沒人懂得調,這樣好不好?"},{"start":18293.137,"end":18294.057,"text":"第二案有沒有意義?"},{"start":18319.633,"end":18321.454,"text":"第二案也同意凍結並提報院會,那第三案?"},{"start":18344.605,"end":18359.052,"text":"第三案、第四案有沒有異議?沒有。那就同意動之並提報院會。討論事項總共4案就是同意動之並提報院會。本日會議到此結束。現在休息。星期四上午9點繼續開會。"},{"start":18374.302,"end":18400.535,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}