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什麼意思"},{"start":313.066,"end":339.34,"text":"一般就是說我們當年度的一個收入和支出如果收支不能相抵它就會出現當年度會有短促的現象那這種就會累總到基金的一個餘額去那因為我們基金餘額總共是100億所以目前來講的話它是67億但是整個基金總數它還有剩餘還有30幾億的一個餘額所以如果要付淨化補償是夠的是足夠支應的"},{"start":340.742,"end":348.037,"text":"所以我整理您的話所謂的短處67.66億是指當年度的收跟入"},{"start":350.495,"end":371.368,"text":"以我們原民會的基金的使用大部分是拿去做貸款的發放絕大部分所以他每一年度發去做貸款的很多但是收回來的很少是這個意思嗎請問我們原民會的貸款預放比現在已經來到多少"},{"start":377.321,"end":400.767,"text":"已經有降低了以往是比較已經降低到本來是12.8現在已經降低到6.55了所以我們其實逐年在改善已經在改善了嘛我知道的是曾經高達到20嘛現在已經逐年逐年去年十幾今年已經6.7嗎6.55那改善得非常好啊"},{"start":402.669,"end":416.329,"text":"這個部分我還是要請主計長說明那如果我們提到你剛剛已經解釋什麼叫做短處就是當年度的收根入那會因為基金短處就無法辦理這個基金的業務了嗎?"},{"start":417.51,"end":434.867,"text":"因為你要看累積所以累積我本身當初播100億的一個基金的總額那累積它目前67的一個短數它每一年會逐漸累積然後這樣子相抵之後我還有30幾億那再請教現在我們很高興"},{"start":437.504,"end":463.88,"text":"過去是公務加基金那大家不滿意全數以後用公務預算編我們也很高興但是請教一下主計長全部用公務預算編那最終也是要回到基金去發嗎是是所以因為就是因為這樣我們以往都是透過基金來發放然後都是當作補助收入撥到基金去然後由基金整個發放那可以不回到基金發嗎"},{"start":465.68,"end":493.942,"text":"也是可以啦!也是可以啦!那會有什麼影響?現在就是這樣子啦!譬如說因為如果說它本身每一年面積會有一些增減那你如果在基金裡面它的彈性比較大但是在公共預算裡面它的彈性就比較小所以您的意思是說基金的好處是有彈性而且可以隨時撥補而且可以拿去投資"},{"start":495.647,"end":513.956,"text":"投資到沒有啦因為他這裡面就是幾個幾個就是一個就是進華補償嘛那一個就是一個貸款的一個部分所以我們的重發基金這些錢還沒有撥補進來的時候補助進來的時候其實並沒有拿去做投資"},{"start":515.441,"end":532.704,"text":"目前沒有做投資那再請教一下喔那如果說我們的重發基金他有很多使用的項目我們再發這個進法補償金他會去影響其他既有的其他的項目嗎"},{"start":534.236,"end":559.73,"text":"應該不會他不會因為年度的短促因為他基金現在還有一個所以基金他有單獨的一個補助收入的來源他做他的事他不會去影響原來基金那些要做的事情不會好那我就要問了那我們自從有了財政紀律法之後他有提到第7條"},{"start":561.92,"end":575.037,"text":"不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障那對於這個部分不曉得我們之前的花東基金、離島基金他們目前的狀況如何"},{"start":576.219,"end":604.156,"text":"他們現在以前都是有限定說要到金額多少但是每一年他逐漸都會使用掉會基金逐漸減少那但是我們每一年都依照實際的需求去做編列而沒有說像給他撥補一定的額度說要多少因為這樣子的話我是有點浪費公家的一個財源因為為什麼因為我要去擠債他的利息是比那個還要高所以我這個部分所以主計長您的意思是說"},{"start":605.197,"end":611.837,"text":"有了財政紀律法之後這個花東離島基金它也是用補助收入的方式進來"},{"start":613.287,"end":641.649,"text":"我們一般都是編列不一定說是補助收入就是循預算程序循預算程序來撥補那撥補讓他去做運用是這樣子好那我在這邊最後就是停留因為很多人說短處的原因就是禁法補償因為發放禁法補償所以導致重發基金短處所以呢我們不應該"},{"start":643.007,"end":655.833,"text":"去投獲我們的基金來發放淨法補償那現在我們看到有一個主決議就是要求分3年去把這個短處的67.66億補回來那我不曉得說主計長您對這樣的一個看法"},{"start":663.015,"end":664.457,"text":"總而言之我只是提醒我們的主計總處"},{"start":682.719,"end":697.575,"text":"其實我們很多的政策、很多的議題跑出來的時候其實我們也有負擔社會教育的責任畢竟我們不是每個人都是專家這麼了解財政"},{"start":698.636,"end":724.307,"text":"這麼了解基金所以我們很希望我們站在質詢台上也好或者是我們在做政策的說明也好我們應該要能夠撥亂反正提供正確的訊息給予解決的方向那我們的目的其實並無二致我們都是希望解決問題但是在這個當中我希望我們的主計總處能夠好好的"},{"start":724.667,"end":725.148,"text":"主席主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：好，請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長您好。這個預算會期禁伐補償是一個非常熱門的討論議題，可能過去沒有人知道什麼是禁伐補償，除了一些原住民朋友，更沒有人知道什麼叫做原民會裡面的原住民族綜合發展基金，所以在這一次的預算會期引發很多的討論，甚至可以說是基金之亂，但是也很好，就是大家可以有機會好好地上一課，到底什麼是基金？什麼是禁伐補償？但是我還是要強烈地去表達，在這個過程當中，我們看不到原民會作為一個目的事業主管機關，或者是主計總處去強而有力、能夠很即時地做出清楚的回應，我覺得這個部分，是我在這一次看到需要來好好加強的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我今天也要在這個地方請教一下，因為在11月25號內政委員會原民會的預算審查中，有委員提到這樣的一段話：「我們的政府105年有撥給基金以後，106到114年都沒有撥給，所以我們在談禁伐補償不能使用基金來發是因為我們看到基金已經短絀67.66億……因此禁伐補償全部要由公務預算來編列了。」如果就這段話來看，我們來看一個表格，這個表格是我跟主計總處索資的，確實，我們看一下，在增撥基金這個地方，從開始有綜發基金，97年度一直到105年度，我們可以看到106之後增撥基金是空白的，以至於我們可以聽到有委員說：「106到114都沒有撥，所以我們禁伐補償不能使用基金發，是因為已經短絀了。」好，可是我們看它的另外一行，補助收入的部分，從97年度一直到113年度，每一年都有補助收入到基金，所以我想請教主計長，這個增撥基金為什麼到105之後就沒有，什麼原因？請你說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為當初是有說要擴大規模，逐年編到100億，所以我們就撥到100億，到105年就撥了100億，讓這整個基金去運作、運用，如果將來運用結果是剩下，譬如說有不足的部分，像很多的基金也都是這樣的一個狀況，我們逐年再去做撥補，所以現在如果以禁伐補償的部分來說，就是剛剛有一個補助收入的部分，我們就透過補助收入這樣子的一個方式來做禁伐補償金額的一個……所以它也是透過基金來轉發這樣子的禁伐補償。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以我整理一下主計長您說的，因為原住民族綜合發展基金預定水位是100億，所以撥補到105年度的時候，已經滿100億的水位，我看到這邊是141億。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，那個部分我們原則上是這樣子，到105年累積增撥基金的部分是100億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是有達到100億吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，然後我們後來陸陸續續……那個部分都是屬於補助收入。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我再整理一下您的話，也就是說增撥撥補滿100億之後，我們還是可以繼續用補助收入？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，累計到現在是199億，那我再請教一下，當我們說禁伐補償不能用基金發，是因為基金已經短絀67.66億，我想請主計長說明一下，這個短絀67.66億是什麼意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般就是我們當年度的收入和支出，如果收支不能相抵，當年度就會出現短絀的現象，這種就會累總到基金的餘額去，因為我們基金餘額總共是100億，所以目前來講的話它是67億，但是整個基金總數還有賸餘，還有三十幾億的餘額，所以如果要付禁伐補償是夠的，是足夠支應的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我整理您的話，所謂的短絀67.66億，是指當年度的收跟入？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，在累積……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，以我們原民會基金的使用，大部分是拿去做貸款的發放嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：絕大部分嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以它每一年度發去做貸款的很多，但是收回來的很少，是這個意思嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，有時候貸款沒有辦法……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請問我們原民會的貸款逾放比現在已經來到多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經有降低了，以往是比較……本來是12.8，現在已經降低到6.55了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們其實逐年已經在改善了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我知道的是曾經高達到20，現在已經逐年……去年十幾，今年已經6.7嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：6.55。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那改善得非常好啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個部分我還是要請主計長說明，你剛剛已經解釋什麼叫做短絀，就是當年度的收跟入，那會因為基金短絀就無法辦理基金的業務了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會，因為要看累積啦！當初撥100億的基金總額，目前累積67億的短絀，它每一年會逐漸累積，然後這樣子相抵之後，還有三十幾億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那再請教，現在我們很高興，過去是公務加基金，大家不滿意，以後全數用公務預算編，我們也很高興，但是請教一下主計長，全部用公務預算編，最終也是要回到基金去發嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是，就是因為這樣，我們以往都是透過基金來發放，然後都是當作補助收入撥到基金去，然後由基金整個發放。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那可以不回到基金發嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：也是可以啦！也是可以啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那會有什麼影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在就是這樣子，因為它本身每一年面積會有一些增減，如果在基金裡面它的彈性比較大，但是在公務預算裡面它的彈性比較小。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以您的意思是基金的好處是有彈性，而且可以隨時撥補……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：而且可以拿去投資？"],["陳主計長淑姿：投資倒沒有啦！因為這裡面就是幾個，一個是禁伐補償，另一個是貸款的部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們綜發基金這些錢還沒有撥補進來的時候，補助進來的時候，其實並沒有拿去做投資？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前沒有做投資。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，再請教一下，如果我們的綜發基金有很多使用的項目，我們發禁伐補償金會去影響既有的其他的項目嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該不會，因為基金現在還有餘額……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以基金有單獨的補助收入來源，它做它的事，不會去影響原來基金那些要做的事情？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我就要問了，我們自從有了財政紀律法之後，第七條有提到不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障，對於這個部分，不曉得之前的花東基金、離島基金，他們目前的狀況如何？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他們以前都有限定說要到金額多少，但是每一年它逐漸都會使用掉，基金會逐漸減少，但是我們每一年都依照實際的需求去做編列，沒有給它撥補一定的額度說要多少，因為這樣子的話，是有點浪費公家的財源，為什麼？因為我要去舉債，它的利息是比那個還要高，所以這個部分我是覺得……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以主計長您的意思是說，有了財政紀律法之後，花東離島基金也是用補助收入的方式進來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們一般都是編列，不一定是補助收入……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是循預算程序。"],["陳主計長淑姿：循預算程序來撥補，撥補讓它去做運用，是這樣子。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我最後在這邊停留，因為很多人說短絀的原因就是禁伐補償，因為發放禁伐補償，所以導致綜發基金短絀，所以我們不應該透過我們的基金來發放禁伐補償。現在我們看到有一個主決議，要求分3年去把這個短絀的67.66億補回來，我不曉得主計長您對這樣的看法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一個，這個要補也是看事實的需求，我們儘量來協助，但是是不是能夠這樣，因為我們還必須去看115年度整個的財源狀況，我們儘量來協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，總而言之，我只是要提醒主計總處，很多的政策、很多的議題跑出來的時候，其實我們也有負擔社會教育的責任，畢竟不是每個人都是專家，這麼了解財政、這麼了解基金，所以我們很希望站在質詢臺上也好，或者是在做政策的說明也好，我們應該要能夠撥亂反正，提供正確的訊息，給予解決的方向，我們的目的其實並無二致，都是希望解決問題，但是在這個當中，我希望主計總處能夠好好的發揮導正的角色，主計長可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我儘量。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望未來站在第一線上，我們都要做好這個角色。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主計長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}