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教我們會檢討來評估最後一句你好好的回去"},{"start":740.148,"end":749.16,"text":"把審計部的很多項建議好好看一看有感覺上審計部比你們用功多、認真多謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:17:49.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:17:52.093000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請主計長。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T11:17:52.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:17:56.897000+08:00","text":"請主計長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:17:56.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:17:57.197000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:17:58.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:18:00.200000+08:00","text":"主計長，你是很認真啦！謝謝。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:18:00.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:18:28.988000+08:00","text":"我看主計處的同仁也都很認真，不過我還是必須提醒你，主計處職司的不管是中央總預算、特種基金的核編以及會計決算業務等等各種統計業務，就是以詳實最重要，不能失真啦！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:18:29.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:18:39.644000+08:00","text":"簡單講，主計處不是政府的化妝師，這一句話你要記下來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:18:39.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T11:18:40.644000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:18:39.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:19:13.936000+08:00","text":"也就是說，如果你統計的這些數字失真的話，而且跟民間的感受全然不符的話，人民就會覺得主計長你在幫政府化妝、擦胭脂、抹粉，我們任何一個政黨，尤其現在，民進黨的執政不需要任何化妝師，我們是光明磊落的漢子，該怎麼樣你要表達嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:19:15.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:20:06.792000+08:00","text":"社會真實的情況你要表達，所以我列出幾個數字，你看看，光是消費者物價指數CPI跟消費者信心指數，很清楚這一年多來，尤其這半年物價指數是繼續上升，那麼信心指數是下降，消費者信心指數當然包括大家投資股票、家庭經濟狀況、國內經濟景氣、就業機會、購買耐久財等等這些，這幾個指標統統下滑，CPI消費者物價指數已經達到通貨膨脹的警戒線。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:20:11.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:20:24.861000+08:00","text":"繼續跟主計長提到房租，現在房租指數嚴重失真，怎麼講呢？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:20:25.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:20:42.660000+08:00","text":"我就跟上一任的主計長提到這個問題，他說回去會查查看，結果民間所調查的房租漲幅跟主計處的調查差了5.5倍之多啦！","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:20:44.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:21:17.794000+08:00","text":"我們來看民間用的方式，台大經濟碩士李祖福先生發表一篇論文，他研究關於租金的漲幅，蒐集調查591租屋網等107萬筆交易資料，他的調查結果發現租金漲價指數高達3.56%到3.58%，而同一個時期主計總處的調查結果竟然只有0.64而已。","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:21:39.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:21:56.363000+08:00","text":"另外，臺北市政府今年6月也做調查，是以實價登錄的臺北市區住宅案件為基礎，以實價登錄去查的租金漲幅也是年增率高達5.83%。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:22:00.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:22:21.122000+08:00","text":"而同樣時期主計處所調查公布出來的沒有針對六都個別城市，是調查所謂北區，這跟臺北市比較接近，竟然只有2.22%，你們調查的指數等於不到一半之多。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:22:23.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:22:36.971000+08:00","text":"更扯的是，有更多中央單位也做調查並提供給你們的，像內政部提供給你們是30萬筆，天啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:22:38.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:22:48.539000+08:00","text":"不是3萬筆、5萬筆，是提供30萬筆包租代管，反觀主計總處所查的是1,350筆，請問誰比較有代表性？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:22:53.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:23:06.003000+08:00","text":"這很清楚啦，沒辦法說服民眾主計處以1,350筆計算的會強過內政部提供的30萬筆，這不可能的事情嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:23:06.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:23:16.807000+08:00","text":"所以民間慢慢的會覺得主計處的統計失真，主計處統計失真的差別在哪裡？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:23:16.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:23:48.252000+08:00","text":"因為你代表的是整個中央政府，應該要去詳實調查，調查出來的資料是要給中央政府作為施政及推動各項政策的最重要參考，所以如果失真了，一方面政府的威信蕩然無存，二方面我們應該研擬怎麼樣的對策，那這些對策的前提是錯誤的數字，這怎麼會有好的對策？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:23:49.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:23:49.333000+08:00","text":"不是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:23:49.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:24:02.962000+08:00","text":"所以我們要面對真實，把真實找出來，我剛剛提到內政部光包租代管就30萬筆，那你們為什麼不好好去做研究？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:24:06.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:24:28.706000+08:00","text":"再就你們更新調查的數字，每年的更新大概都是100戶左右，所以樣本數少，樣本也不核實做更新，當然出來的數字跟民間的就會差很多，主計長對此的看法呢？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:24:33.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:25:07.563000+08:00","text":"房租指數占整個消費者物價指數裡面的權重高達16%，你看所有CPI權重比裡面房租最高，再來外食費、交通費、娛樂費、教養費，一路下來這10項指標裡面，房租高達16%，所以你低估了租金的指數，等於就是低估了整個物價上漲率，不是這樣嗎？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:25:07.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:25:25.097000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為我們的調查是屬於基本資料的調查，剛剛委員談到北市比較偏高的部分，它有一部分是屬於營業的租金，營業租金比較偏高，一般家庭住戶的租金就比較低。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:25:26.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:25:31.983000+08:00","text":"一般我們跟內政部的調查數字來講，內政部的調查也是二點多，跟我們大部分是接近。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:25:32.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:25:45.013000+08:00","text":"我們這個部分是最基礎的資料，如果有一些針對業務性要做的調查，這會由各部會的統計來做調查，特別跟委員說明。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:25:48.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:25:50.343000+08:00","text":"好，你私下來做一些補充說明。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:25:50.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:26:12.239000+08:00","text":"我所了解的是，對於內政部的資料，你們說房屋規格不一，但是30萬筆耶，好過你們才取樣1,350筆，而且這1,350筆還是每年只更新100筆資料，這差距太大了。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:26:12.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:26:16.540000+08:00","text":"是，不過調查目的也不一樣，我們特別再跟委員報告。好。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:26:20.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:26:46.712000+08:00","text":"我們國家的租屋人口數高達300萬人，所以你區區的只抽1,350戶，這當然沒有代表性，有300萬的國民租屋，你抽1,350戶，任何人來評估都會認為樣本不夠，這個差距太遠了吧，差距太遠了！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:26:48.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:27:14.904000+08:00","text":"所以現在小市民的感受就是這幾年房租上漲的壓力，隨著房價飆升，房租也跟著形成小市民很大的生活壓力，而政府對此束手無策，照理說束手無策也應該根據詳實的資料來詳列如何解決的方式才對。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:27:15.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:27:35.760000+08:00","text":"最後我要跟主計長提，這一點只有審計處他們有去查到，我跟他們的看法完全一致，審計部建議恢復改善所得分配專案小組，他們積極的建議，我在上個會期第一次質詢就說我認為應 該把這個小組恢復，為什麼？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:27:35.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:28:20.533000+08:00","text":"因為這個小組恢復可以落實執行協調各部會、督導各部會，針對改善所得應該做的一些計畫，總要有個總協調人，所以我認為改善所得分配的專案小組一定要出來，因為以現在我們的收入，後端20%的收入跟前端20%的收入差了66.9倍，這還是根據你們的資料，差了66.9倍。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:28:21.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:28:37.259000+08:00","text":"因為它統計調查的基礎不一樣，30年前國富調查是屬於普查，那時候是比較簡略，現在我們是用資料庫的數據直接去跑，所以數據也不一樣。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:28:37.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:28:43.301000+08:00","text":"所以你是說30年前的16.8倍不準，現在的66.9倍很準？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:28:43.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:28:44.923000+08:00","text":"因為資料本身是比較簡單一點……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:28:44.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:28:46.043000+08:00","text":"那就這一句就夠了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:28:46.043000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T11:28:47.043000+08:00","text":"來源也不同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:28:46.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:28:47.004000+08:00","text":"就66.9倍是準的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:28:47.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:29:00.114000+08:00","text":"主計長，我們國民收入相差66.9倍，你認為對嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:29:00.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:29:11.905000+08:00","text":"這是指有包括財產的部分，所以今年大部分把財產納進來，就是屬於有一些實價登錄的部分，價格也進來，這個部分資料有蒐集，所以是把財產納進來才會這麼高，是這樣的原因。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:29:14.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:29:15.528000+08:00","text":"你說的財產納進來，那是以資本財去賺的收入的部分？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:29:15.528000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T11:29:16.528000+08:00","text":"對，這個部分有包含資本財。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:29:15.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:29:53.206000+08:00","text":"我認為你應該遵照審計部所做的建議要求，本席相信還有其他立委都會跟你要求，就是我們應該恢復改善所得分配小組，這樣的一個專案小組應該恢復，讓他們詳實落實去督導各部會，針對改善所得這個部分做詳實的計畫，這樣才對，好不好？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:29:53.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:29:54.007000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教，我們會檢討來評估。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:29:54.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:30:01.412000+08:00","text":"我最後一句，你回去之後把審計部很多項建議好好的看一看。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T11:30:01.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T11:30:02.614000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2024-11-28T11:30:02.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T11:30:07.160000+08:00","text":"我感覺審計部比你們用功多了，認真多了。謝謝。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T11:30:07.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T11:30:09.660000+08:00","text":"謝謝王世堅委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T11:30:09.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T11:30:12.817143+08:00","text":"繼續請羅明才委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時17分）謝謝主席，我請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：主計長，你是很認真啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：我看主計處的同仁也都很認真，不過我還是必須提醒你，主計處職司的不管是中央總預算、特種基金的核編以及會計決算業務等等各種統計業務，就是以詳實最重要，不能失真啦！簡單講，主計處不是政府的化妝師，這一句話你要記下來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：也就是說，如果你統計的這些數字失真的話，而且跟民間的感受全然不符的話，人民就會覺得主計長你在幫政府化妝、擦胭脂、抹粉，我們任何一個政黨，尤其現在，民進黨的執政不需要任何化妝師，我們是光明磊落的漢子，該怎麼樣你要表達嘛！社會真實的情況你要表達，所以我列出幾個數字，你看看，光是消費者物價指數CPI跟消費者信心指數，很清楚這一年多來，尤其這半年物價指數是繼續上升，那麼信心指數是下降，消費者信心指數當然包括大家投資股票、家庭經濟狀況、國內經濟景氣、就業機會、購買耐久財等等這些，這幾個指標統統下滑，CPI消費者物價指數已經達到通貨膨脹的警戒線。","繼續跟主計長提到房租，現在房租指數嚴重失真，怎麼講呢？我就跟上一任的主計長提到這個問題，他說回去會查查看，結果民間所調查的房租漲幅跟主計處的調查差了5.5倍之多啦！我們來看民間用的方式，台大經濟碩士李祖福先生發表一篇論文，他研究關於租金的漲幅，蒐集調查591租屋網等107萬筆交易資料，他的調查結果發現租金漲價指數高達3.56%到3.58%，而同一個時期主計總處的調查結果竟然只有0.64而已。另外，臺北市政府今年6月也做調查，是以實價登錄的臺北市區住宅案件為基礎，以實價登錄去查的租金漲幅也是年增率高達5.83%。而同樣時期主計處所調查公布出來的沒有針對六都個別城市，是調查所謂北區，這跟臺北市比較接近，竟然只有2.22%，你們調查的指數等於不到一半之多。更扯的是，有更多中央單位也做調查並提供給你們的，像內政部提供給你們是30萬筆，天啊！不是3萬筆、5萬筆，是提供30萬筆包租代管，反觀主計總處所查的是1,350筆，請問誰比較有代表性？這很清楚啦，沒辦法說服民眾主計處以1,350筆計算的會強過內政部提供的30萬筆，這不可能的事情嘛！所以民間慢慢的會覺得主計處的統計失真，主計處統計失真的差別在哪裡？因為你代表的是整個中央政府，應該要去詳實調查，調查出來的資料是要給中央政府作為施政及推動各項政策的最重要參考，所以如果失真了，一方面政府的威信蕩然無存，二方面我們應該研擬怎麼樣的對策，那這些對策的前提是錯誤的數字，這怎麼會有好的對策？不是這樣嗎？","所以我們要面對真實，把真實找出來，我剛剛提到內政部光包租代管就30萬筆，那你們為什麼不好好去做研究？再就你們更新調查的數字，每年的更新大概都是100戶左右，所以樣本數少，樣本也不核實做更新，當然出來的數字跟民間的就會差很多，主計長對此的看法呢？房租指數占整個消費者物價指數裡面的權重高達16%，你看所有CPI權重比裡面房租最高，再來外食費、交通費、娛樂費、教養費，一路下來這10項指標裡面，房租高達16%，所以你低估了租金的指數，等於就是低估了整個物價上漲率，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為我們的調查是屬於基本資料的調查，剛剛委員談到北市比較偏高的部分，它有一部分是屬於營業的租金，營業租金比較偏高，一般家庭住戶的租金就比較低。一般我們跟內政部的調查數字來講，內政部的調查也是二點多，跟我們大部分是接近。我們這個部分是最基礎的資料，如果有一些針對業務性要做的調查，這會由各部會的統計來做調查，特別跟委員說明。"],["王委員世堅：好，你私下來做一些補充說明。我所了解的是，對於內政部的資料，你們說房屋規格不一，但是30萬筆耶，好過你們才取樣1,350筆，而且這1,350筆還是每年只更新100筆資料，這差距太大了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，不過調查目的也不一樣，我們特別再跟委員報告。"],["王委員世堅：好。我們國家的租屋人口數高達300萬人，所以你區區的只抽1,350戶，這當然沒有代表性，有300萬的國民租屋，你抽1,350戶，任何人來評估都會認為樣本不夠，這個差距太遠了吧，差距太遠了！所以現在小市民的感受就是這幾年房租上漲的壓力，隨著房價飆升，房租也跟著形成小市民很大的生活壓力，而政府對此束手無策，照理說束手無策也應該根據詳實的資料來詳列如何解決的方式才對。","最後我要跟主計長提，這一點只有審計處他們有去查到，我跟他們的看法完全一致，審計部建議恢復改善所得分配專案小組，他們積極的建議，我在上個會期第一次質詢就說我認為應 該把這個小組恢復，為什麼？因為這個小組恢復可以落實執行協調各部會、督導各部會，針對改善所得應該做的一些計畫，總要有個總協調人，所以我認為改善所得分配的專案小組一定要出來，因為以現在我們的收入，後端20%的收入跟前端20%的收入差了66.9倍，這還是根據你們的資料，差了66.9倍。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它統計調查的基礎不一樣，30年前國富調查是屬於普查，那時候是比較簡略，現在我們是用資料庫的數據直接去跑，所以數據也不一樣。"],["王委員世堅：所以你是說30年前的16.8倍不準，現在的66.9倍很準？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為資料本身是比較簡單一點……"],["王委員世堅：那就這一句就夠了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：來源也不同。"],["王委員世堅：就66.9倍是準的嘛！主計長，我們國民收入相差66.9倍，你認為對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是指有包括財產的部分，所以今年大部分把財產納進來，就是屬於有一些實價登錄的部分，價格也進來，這個部分資料有蒐集，所以是把財產納進來才會這麼高，是這樣的原因。"],["王委員世堅：你說的財產納進來，那是以資本財去賺的收入的部分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分有包含資本財。"],["王委員世堅：我認為你應該遵照審計部所做的建議要求，本席相信還有其他立委都會跟你要求，就是我們應該恢復改善所得分配小組，這樣的一個專案小組應該恢復，讓他們詳實落實去督導各部會，針對改善所得這個部分做詳實的計畫，這樣才對，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員指教，我們會檢討來評估。"],["王委員世堅：我最後一句，你回去之後把審計部很多項建議好好的看一看。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：我感覺審計部比你們用功多了，認真多了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員。","繼續請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}