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淨法補償的追加預算什麼時候要送來?這個部分因為我們必須要等到那個明年他是在9月要發放那我們會在之前在下一個會期所以這個會期不會處理?是不會到下個會期才會處理就對了不會是114年度的追加預算OK好謝謝是謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":937,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時42分）謝謝主席，麻煩請主計長和審計長。"],["主席：請主計長、審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，最近這段時間在審預算，也發生了很多的事情，我們回去看最基礎的教科書，告訴我們財政是國家庶政之母，我們建立了預算的制度、會計的制度、決算的制度，最後到審計，就是希望看好人民的荷包，錢不要亂花。延續著上一次質詢的主題，我最近陷入了迷惘，我陷入了迷惘是從預算、到會計、到決算、到最後的審計，我們有做到這件事嗎？我們到底要怎麼做才可以防止政府機關隨便亂花人民的錢、胡搞瞎搞，整個制度有沒有辦法追究責任？我上次跟主計長報告，如果在我們現行的制度之下一切合法，對不起啊！我很難接受。為什麼這樣講？我上次講的是原民會的主委花145萬出個人成果專刊，結果主計總處說預算經費的使用要符合計畫內容，一開始預算書根本沒寫這個東西啊，沒寫又怎麼樣？我愛花就花，我就是要這樣花。結果我去調資料，才知道從其他的項目隨便撥來給他個人出寫真集。對於這件事情，審計部的專案審計做了沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：做了。"],["黃委員國昌：結果什麼時候會出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：今天會送給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：今天送給我嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["黃委員國昌：除了這件事情以外，另外，我之所以請審計長，我可以老實跟審計長講啦，過去這一、兩年，審計部是少有的政府機關在民間社會得到肯定，我今年在處理監察院預算的時候，你們到時候看我預算提案就知道了，我對監察院是大砍，我唯一支持的只有審計部，因為你們有在做你們的工作。但我必須要跟審計長講的事情是，可能你們在做這些工作的時候再認真，但還是有你們沒有辦法處理的問題，因為監督政府機關預算的執行、審核財務收支、考核財務效能，全部都是你們審計部的責任嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看一下。一個分署長的辦公室可以裝潢成這個樣子，花145萬啊，花145萬啊！審計部知不知道這是什麼項下支出的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是在就安基金的一般行政裡面，我們正在做整個了解。"],["黃委員國昌：審計部有在了解嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，也出公函給它啦！"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們原則上1個月裡面把這個事情弄清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：1個月？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是。"],["黃委員國昌：等不了那麼久啦，兩個禮拜好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們儘量……"],["黃委員國昌：加油啦，加油！錢這樣花喔？錢可以這樣花喔？一個分署長搞成這個樣子啊，我們現在在財務責任上完全不控管是不是？更離譜的是，我可能要拜託審計長納入你們審計的項目之一，我找了半天，這到底是什麼標案？結果標案的名稱寫得很漂亮，叫做「新莊本部空間美化整修工程」，一般的人看了「新莊本部空間美化整修工程」會覺得這個是在美化整個勞動分署的辦公空間，光看這個標案根本不知道原來在美化的是分署長的辦公室。再請審計長看一下右手邊，這個是最有利標，最有利標要評選委員會，評選委員會的名單5個人，我每一個人的資歷全部看完了，現在在職的工作都是在北分署，要不然在秘書室，要不然在訓練科，要不然在諮詢服務科。如果機關首長裝潢自己的辦公室用最有利標，搞來評選委員會全部的評選委員5個都是我自己的屬下，那你乾脆不要設評選委員會嘛，分署長愛挑誰就挑誰啊，但政府採購法有規定，不過政府採購法規定的又如何？可以這樣幹嗎？審計長！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：政府採購法有政府採購法的規定，我們會了解是不是符合政府採購法。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個一併列入審計的項目當中。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：已經列進去了。"],["黃委員國昌：最後一個，這個更奇怪，我今天去跟勞動部要的說明，今天才回給我，它承認兩件事。第一個，本來的預算根本沒有編這個項目，那奇怪了，許銘春是花什麼錢去開演唱會？結果找了半天，是從就業安定基金來。那問題是什麼？就業安定基金這裡面的名目是什麼？名目是媒體宣導的費用，對於媒體宣導的費用，大家都會想說是在宣導什麼？是在宣導有關於跟就業安定有關係的宣導片，不管是對雇主還是對勞工的宣導片，結果這宣導片可以包裝成拿來辦演唱會。審計長，你會不會覺得很離譜？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們查到，我們初步的了解和委員了解的一樣，我們也正在函詢勞動部。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望審計部在做審計的時候，一定要給全體的公務機關一個清楚的訊息，預算在立法院審議通過以後，不准掛羊頭賣狗肉，這就是典型的掛羊頭賣狗肉，因為我把這個標案最後的驗收報告調來看，最後的驗收報告講的是什麼？他拍了幾支片子，那拍了幾支片子符合媒體宣導，名目上是這樣，實際上是在高雄的衛武營辦演唱會。所以我希望審計長，這一次可以說是引發全國人民的怒火，也引導大家重新的再去思考，我們的預算制度、我們的決算制度、我們的審計，到底有沒有辦法杜絕這樣子的狀況？如果沒有辦法杜絕這樣子的狀況，我不知道我們立法委員這個會期在審預算到底在審什麼東西？審了半天又怎麼樣？審了半天，你跟我說這筆錢要去推廣勞工政策，結果最後花的時候拿去辦演唱會。如果我們國家的制度對於這種胡搞瞎搞最後的結論是一切合法、謝謝指教，我必須要誠懇的跟審計長報告，這件事情人民不會接受。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：只要查到沒有依照預算規定，或者違反相關法令，我們會做減列的動作。"],["黃委員國昌：會做減列，錢是不是會追回來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會減列完以後，會依照整個檢調查核的結果來追討。"],["黃委員國昌：希望這次審計部再繳出一張成績單，讓臺灣社會看看，我們國家公務部門裡面還是有人在負責把關的，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。","最後一個問題請教主計長，禁伐補償的追加預算什麼時候要送來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們必須要等到明年，它是在9月要發放，那我們會在之前就是在下一個會期……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個會期不會處理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，不會。"],["黃委員國昌：到下個會期才會處理就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為是114年度的追加預算。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員明才代）：現在已經12點了，會議繼續進行至詢答完畢。","接著請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}