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趕快先編好嘛先編好 你們的心理是怎麼樣 為什麼4倍最後7.6倍是跟委員報告 其實是因為有一些制度上的改變了"},{"start":137.017,"end":154.213,"text":"你比如說像最主要是因為過去因為我們有訴願就是在訴願先行所以受處分的當事人可以先提起訴願那後來因為我們的整個法律修改過後對於我們的這個行政處分可以進行提起行政訴訟所以已經沒有所謂訴願先行的程序這是一個"},{"start":155.114,"end":182.148,"text":"那另外一個是因為你也知道我們那個黨軍軍退出媒體這個事情啊我們每一次啊那個碰到那個黨軍軍退出媒體啊我們都都雖然換照是換照但是都加上一些付款啊要求人家啊在下一次換照之前啊要要處理完黨黨軍軍退黨軍軍的這個這個股份不過你剛剛講的主要的第一個理由齁對其實就適用於其他機關啦其他機關沒有像你們這樣子搞的其他機關都必須要速速"},{"start":183.249,"end":204.77,"text":"訴訟的整個的一個費用這樣的去備徵,最後他用到哪裡去呢?我們那個感覺好奇怪喔,就是當年為了寬中天後面的訴訟國家隊啊,欸,這裡面的兩個意義就是說,其實我對於我的行政裁量的品質,我是沒有這麼有信心的,還是後面編一些律師費來擋一擋。"},{"start":206.531,"end":231.331,"text":"萬一我做的裁定被人家這個翻案的時候我們要去我第一個是沒有信心嘛所以你到底是不是濫罰後面勒那你被打臉幾次呢我覺得這個案子你到底要被打臉幾次才有那種快感呢就是我一個行政裁量已經經過你們內部NCC團隊覺得有問題然後給七位好不好專業的委員獨立公正的委員判斷判讀"},{"start":232.532,"end":257.191,"text":"你們是這個兵強馬壯的國家隊啊你們在採組的過程中有這麼多律師可以問你們比一個不管企業民眾你們強大多了所以在這種情況你們做出來一個行政的材料按照這個道理你要對自己非常有信心結果呢你們這樣的一個之後然後到了行政行政訴訟一半而一半之後哇討論一下"},{"start":258.132,"end":259.713,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":282.028,"end":299.554,"text":"已經這個敗訴的部分你們當時罰人家一千一百五十三萬就一千多萬精確數字你們大概自己去算那你們現在已經確定敗訴了退了多少現在還人家多少以中天案退了多少"},{"start":307.425,"end":314.65,"text":"目前還的多少?就我們半數確定是有5件我印象中好像應該是600多萬吧"},{"start":319.011,"end":341.529,"text":"我覺得NCC對我來講是真的非常離譜我也覺得很惡劣在這些不是光中天這個議題而是你一個行政機關你的思考性的一些問題你到底要怎麼樣去做這件事情兵牆馬狀的律師費對自己的裁決的品質不太信任第二個呢好嗎那你去衝嘛你去"},{"start":342.35,"end":369.911,"text":"大家互相告碼上訴碼那完之後你知道嗎過去10年過去10年我們司法的統計年報行政機關我這兵搶馬帳的團隊我可以諮詢律師做出來裁決尤其我們依法行政我對法律的賢熟對不對再一再我都比別人要強那麼多我們做出來裁決怎麼會出錯呢但是每一個機關都會多多少少會出錯"},{"start":371.55,"end":390.119,"text":"那歷年來過去將近10年我們看到平均的政府被告被提行政訴訟敗了7到14%你們就中天案我們整個去看不管你一個案子幾次你一直上訴我就給你算嘛敗一次敗兩次總共"},{"start":391.417,"end":416.354,"text":"你們42次你們給我的表你們現在敗了17次到底要敗到多少才開心因為總共在中間這一次上次不換照的時候總共是26件那目前的話我們目前是有5件是確定包括什麼營運計畫包括換照的一大堆的問題啦不光是裁罰的問題啦但是屬於內容財主部分是26件"},{"start":417.395,"end":442.574,"text":"所以你們對於你們這種敗訴力是很驕傲嘛因為我們講說不管你做什麼你在高等行政法院簡怡婷高等行政法院最高行政法院扯到中天的案子扯到中天的案子勝勝勝當然有一些遺案子你們持續上訴我就覺得很離譜啊一方面你們已經納入稅錄了已經繳交了你們稅務預算收到這些罰款繳交國庫了然後再拿出來賠別人"},{"start":447.278,"end":465.282,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":470.096,"end":478.044,"text":"你不要再講我時間不夠了再來你們是不是要成立NCC律師事務所多一個部門我沒意見"},{"start":489.443,"end":508.471,"text":"這麼多的案件從107年到現在為止你們所有的訴訟案件有一位律師因為我不見得覺得有問題啦就是你是不是有御用律師還是專任律師還是body body的兄弟我不清楚一個律師你們幾十個案件我來就好了我還沒算他的敗訴比率啊"},{"start":509.071,"end":527.287,"text":"你們這個整個的一個部分訴訟的這個部分我真的給你一個良心的建議這種訴訟的能量跟品質放在前面好不好放在你們NCC要做決定的那一刻開始把這些專家意見納在那裡不是在這後面浪費人民的預算"},{"start":528.508,"end":540.781,"text":"陳柱惟就這一部分的那個我這是給你建議啦像這樣的這種搞法的話陳柱惟因為我時間真的有限了齁那我這只是給你建議齁因為你昨天還是前天去了淘氣公司吧前天"},{"start":542.233,"end":571.459,"text":"我們特別秘書回來說他整個報告完畢了你講了一句話跟我心中講一下怎麼沒有報告PMS行價怎麼報告一大堆就這部分就是簡單一頁就過去了那現在一個情況是這樣我是希望你這一次的三個重點的施政正好是我要跟你說的你說列管重大公共工程這個你在昨天你也說這個是重大的工程"},{"start":572.159,"end":599.204,"text":"必定要如期如實完工。第二個你要健全採購制度這中間有很多採購第二個問題分包商到底可不可以再這樣去弄呢第三個履約爭議的調節的品質那現在進度嚴重落後分包商現在變成說這個系統廠商是李立但他們還在爭議嘛所以又有人提一個方案說好吧組織圖改一下呃陳韻"},{"start":602.045,"end":613.512,"text":"李毓把公研院掛在這下面公研院是之前一起投標的另外一家廠商的系統廠商這個釋法性如何你們去研究最後一個我想這樣的"},{"start":615.915,"end":642.004,"text":"自駕系統的細設文件連現在廠商都沒確定分包商因為也沒有簽可是你知道嗎NTP加271天11月14號到期了已經到期了是幹嘛哪個階段呢PMS航廈電巴系統這個廠商要把各個分包商的細部設計全部送完所以你有沒有一個大問號"},{"start":644.145,"end":672.956,"text":"你們那個系統廠商都還沒喬定啊是姓張還是姓李不知道怎麼系統的系社文件這家系統系統送了欸不能亂搞惡劣到這種程度啊就隨便寫下送囉倒了也成功送了裡面出資萬兆亂七八糟誰做都不知道但沒關係我送了我送了就算省不過沒有關係再說我是覺得這些東西你都要關心一下"},{"start":674.721,"end":700.75,"text":"因為西部設計現在全部送完了那你知道嗎?初步的審查什麼?出資濫造文件的數量、品質可以講非常低落,要求他重寫所以我是覺得這可以納入你們在思考的過程中問題是你看到1月1號1月1號,剩一個多月要測試限控系統,那是系統的"},{"start":702.148,"end":727.015,"text":"這是國家重大就讓你再這樣這個這個然後再來3月1號要自駕測試你覺得他這個可以如期如質完工嗎?報告委因為第三航廈T3是一個重要的國家建設那過去機場被批評說不如外國的機場所以我們希望透過第三航廈的改建來扭轉這樣的形象提高服務的品質"},{"start":727.995,"end":752.129,"text":"那關於試駕的部分關鍵在細色所以如果細色沒有通過不會有測試不會有那些問題那我想我已經要求淘氣公司或交通部啊兩個原則第一個必須依法來妥善處理這個採購案第二個呢要衡量將來機場的服務品質是否能夠符合民眾的需求跟期待"},{"start":754.011,"end":776.105,"text":"好,那最後就這兩句話拜託你齁你真的要進去協助啦因為昨天你去特別他也沒跟你報告PMS到底有什麼需要你協助的事項只是說誒陳昱可能會去跟你有什麼有什麼這個要一一要處理啊要請你們協調啊我就覺得好可怕欸現在距離1月1號剩幾天而已現在連系統誰做"},{"start":777.586,"end":777.806,"text":"主管通訊傳播委員會主管"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我們直接請……今天NCC是派誰來？"],["主席：請黃主秘。"],["魯委員明哲：黃主秘是不是？好，工程會的陳主委跟NCC的黃主秘，兩位一起來好了。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["魯委員明哲：我第一個問題真的要跟NCC請教，NCC新的代理主委大概3、4天之後才會上任，但是因為今天審到你們一個預算，很多的坊間、媒體早就提過這個問題，事實上我們也一直在關注這個問題，就是針對NCC整體的訴訟費，訴訟費不是我們委員在講，也不是媒體在講，你們自己從107年、108年、109年，你們覺得一個正常的機關，大概你們3年編的都150萬，150萬覺得夠用，結果到110年開始發生了中天拒換照，不給它換照這件事情發生之後，你們每一年的預算跳了4倍，到112年變成1,140萬，雖然到最後沒用這麼多，可是你們編預算的雄心壯志我們看出來了。","像這樣子編預算，我突然覺得很奇怪，你不是一般的公司，你是政府機關，政府機關要去打官司的機會其實也沒有那麼多啦！是不是對這個機關的獨立、專業、公平性的NCC委員所做出來的行政裁決、裁處很沒有信心，所以後面還要救火隊？主秘，這個我看說哎喲！我們做出來的問題很多，趕快先編好嘛！你們的心裡是怎麼樣？為什麼4倍，最後7.6倍？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：其實是因為制度上有一些改變，最主要是過去我們有訴願，就是在訴願先行嘛！所以受處分的當事人可以先提起訴願，後來因為整個法律修改過後，對於我們的行政處分可以逕行提起行政訴訟，所以已經沒有所謂的訴願先行程序，這是一個。另外一個，因為你也知道黨政軍退出媒體這件事情，我們每一次碰到黨政軍退出媒體，雖然換照是換照，但是都加上一些附款，要求人家在下一次換照之前要處理完黨政軍的股份。"],["魯委員明哲：不過你剛剛講的主要的第一個理由，其實就適用於其他機關，其他機關沒有像你們這樣子搞的。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：其他機關都必須要……"],["魯委員明哲：訴訟的整個費用這樣子去倍增，最後它用到哪裡去呢？我們感覺好奇怪哦！當年為了關中天，後面的訴訟國家隊，這裡面的兩個意義就是說，其實我對於我的行政裁量品質是沒有這麼有信心的，還是後面編一些律師費來擋一擋，萬一我做的裁定被人家翻案的時候，我們要去處理，我第一個是沒有信心嘛！所以你到底是不是濫罰？你要被打臉幾次呢？我覺得這個案子你到底要被打臉幾次才有那種快感呢？我一個行政裁量已經經過了你們內部NCC團隊覺得有問題，然後給7位專業的委員，獨立公正的委員判斷、判讀，你們是兵強馬壯的國家隊耶！你們在裁處的過程中有這麼多律師可以問，你們比一個不管企業或民眾，你們強大多了，所以在這種情況，你們做出來一個行政裁量，按照對的道理，你要對自己非常有信心，結果你們這樣的一個流程之後，然後到了行政訴訟，一半是哇！討論一下，自己做錯了一次裁量還不夠，第二次再上訴又被打一巴掌，有些搞了好幾次的，我真的不知道你們針對已經很明顯，連法官都告訴你這樣子搞不行的情況，你們怎麼樣去做。","再來，請教你第二個問題，針對已經敗訴的部分，你們當時罰人家1,153萬，就是一千多萬，精確數字你們自己去算，那你們現在已經確定敗訴的，退了多少？現在還人家多少？以中天來說，退了多少？目前還了多少？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們敗訴確定是有5件，我印象中好像應該是六百多萬吧！"],["魯委員明哲：好，我覺得NCC對我來講真的是非常離譜，我也覺得很惡劣，不是光中天這個議題，而是一個行政機關你的思考性的一些問題，你到底要怎麼樣去做這件事情，編強大的、兵強馬壯的律師費，對自己的裁決品質不太信任。","第二個，好吧！那你去衝嘛！大家互相告嘛！上訴嘛！弄完之後，你知道嗎？過去10年，根據我們司法統計年報，行政機關我這麼兵強馬壯的團隊，我可以諮詢律師做出裁決，尤其我們依法行政，我對法律的嫻熟，對不對？在在我都比別人要強那麼多，我們做出來的裁決怎麼會出錯呢？但是每一個機關多多少少會有一些出錯，那歷年來，過去將近10年，我們看到政府被告，被提行政訴訟敗的，平均7到14%。就中天案我們整個去看，不管你一個案子幾次，你一直上訴我就給你算嘛！敗1次、敗2次，總共啊！你們42次，根據你們給我的表，你們現在敗了17次……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我想那個是在訴訟上的攻防。"],["魯委員明哲：到底要敗到多少才開心咧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，在中天這一次，上次不換照的時候總共是26件，那目前的話，我們目前有5件是確定的。"],["魯委員明哲：包括什麼營運計畫，包括換照的，一大堆的問題，不光是裁罰的問題啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不，那不是，那個是內容裁處部分，屬於內容裁處部分是26件，其他的話……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你們對於這種敗訴率是很驕傲嘛？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，目前……"],["魯委員明哲：因為我們講說不管你做什麼，你在高等行政法院、簡易庭，高等行政法院、最高行政法院，扯到中天的案子勝、勝、勝，當然有一些案子你們持續上訴，我就覺得很離譜啊！一方面你們已經納入歲入了，已經繳交了你們歲入的預算，收到這些罰款繳交國庫了，然後再拿出來賠別人！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是、不是，不是這樣子，不是這樣子。"],["魯委員明哲：不是啊！你敗訴了，你剛剛講說要不要還給別人？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：要還給別人，我們拿出一部分。"],["魯委員明哲：對，要還給別人，另外一方面又編了這麼高的訴訟費用，所以我覺得你們心態是很惡劣的。時間稍微暫停，我的螢幕不見了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告……"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！你不要再講，我時間不夠了。再來，你們是不是要成立NCC律師事務所？多一個部門，我沒意見啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：沒意見啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：這麼多的案件，從107年到現在為止，你們所有的訴訟案件，有一位律師，因為我不見得覺得有問題啦！就是你是不是有御用律師，還是專任律師，還是buddy-buddy的兄弟，我不清楚，一個律師你們幾十個案件……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，我們是依照他的專業來聘請。"],["魯委員明哲：我來就好了，我還沒算他的敗訴比率啊！你們整個訴訟的部分，我真的給你一個良心的建議，這種訴訟的能量跟品質，放在前面好不好？放在你們NCC要做決定的那一刻開始，把這些專家的意見納在那裡，不是在後面浪費人民的預算啊！","陳主委。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，瞭解，就這一部分的……"],["魯委員明哲：我真的是給你建議啦！像這種搞法的話。陳主委，因為我時間真的有限，我這邊只是給你建議。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：因為你昨天還是前天去了桃機公司嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：前天。"],["魯委員明哲：那我們秘書有特別回來說，他整個報告完畢了，你講一句話跟我心中講的一樣，欸！怎麼沒有報告PMS航廈？他報告一大堆，就這一部分就是簡單一頁就過去了。","現在有一個情況是這樣，我真的希望你這一次三個重點的施政，正好是我要跟你說的，你說列管重大公共工程，你前天也說這個是重大的工程，必定要如期如質完工。第二個，你要健全採購制度，這中間有很多採購，分包商到底可不可以再這樣去弄呢？第三個，履約爭議的調解品質，因為目前進度嚴重落後，分包商現在變成系統廠商是理立，但他們還在爭議嘛！所以又有人提一個方案，說好吧！組織圖改一下，成運、理立，然後把工研院掛在這下面，那工研院是之前一起投標的另外一家廠商的系統廠商，這個適法性如何，你們去研究。","最後一個，你自駕系統的細設文件，現在連廠商都沒確定，分包商因為沒有簽，可是你知道嗎？NTP加270天，11月14日到期了，已經到期了，是幹嘛？哪個階段呢？PMS航廈電巴系統這個廠商要把各個分包商的細部設計全部送完，所以你有沒有一個大問號？哎喲！你們那個系統廠商都還沒喬定啊！是姓張還是姓李不知道，怎麼系統的細設文件，自駕系統細設文件送了欸！我覺得不能亂搞，惡劣到這種程度啊！結果隨便寫一下，送囉！盜壘成功，送了，裡面粗製濫造，亂七八糟，誰做都不知道！但沒關係我送了，我送了就算，審不過沒有關係，再說。","我是覺得這些東西你都要關心一下，主委，因為細部設計現在全部送完了，那你知道嗎，初步的審查是什麼？粗製濫造，文件的數量、品質可以講非常低落，要求它重寫，所以我是覺得這可以納入在你們思考的過程中。問題是你看到1月1日，剩一個多月要測試線控系統，那是系統，這是國家重大工程，就像你在機場所說的，然後再來，3月1日要自駕測試，你覺得它可以如期如質完工嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，因為第三航廈，T3是一個重要的國家建設，過去機場被批評說不如外國的機場，所以我們希望透過第三航廈的改建來扭轉這樣的形象，提高服務的品質。關於自駕的部分，關鍵在細設，所以如果細設沒有通過，不會有測試，不會有那些問題。我已經要求桃機公司或交通部兩個原則，第一個，必須依法來妥善處理這個採購案。第二個，要衡量將來機場的服務品質是否能夠符合民眾的需求和期待。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我最後就這兩句話，拜託你，你真的要進去協助啦！因為前天你去，他也沒跟你報告PMS到底有什麼需要你協助的事項，只是說成運可能會有什麼異議要處理，要請你們協調，我就覺得好可怕欸！現在距離1月1日剩幾天而已，現在連系統誰做，你知道嗎？他們的合約還講說，當時弄得很開心，不光是做二、三航廈的電巴，未來還保留擴充到一航廈的，我拜託一下，你務必再關心一下他們實體的進度，能夠合法如期完工，這是我們的願望，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委的質詢。","接下來邀請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","羅智強","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算；四、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基\n金預算；五、審查113 年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計 2 案\n（第一案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}