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就告訴你你為什麼不做,我就直接處罰你電信業者了啊,你就把我的話當放屁,所以那我就處罰你,我們是有公權力的,所以你不能把"},{"start":419.549,"end":432.931,"text":"電信業者怠惰不作為好如果是真的啦如果是真的那現在變成換下游的人在抱怨說我們做的這個政策好像一副那我當然知道打詐最重要嘛可是我們要怎麼讓"},{"start":435.035,"end":455.246,"text":"這個工作不會因為做A損B一下做B又損A我們怎麼讓A、B都可以雖然不能全滿意但都可以接受這就是政治能力我們這個政府的官員就是要有這個政治能力我只是今天來我看到太多人在抱怨我也收到很多的這個陳請我們馬上檢討"},{"start":457.287,"end":484.39,"text":"好不好馬上想一個方法怎麼可以快速消化我是不知道你們有很多手段可以做嗎怎麼樣快速去消化讓這個聲音可以下來但是做這件事情是對的就是防詐打詐這件事情本席絕對百分之一百的支持是謝謝委員好謝謝好那請那個陳主委請工程會陳主委主委我這邊只有一個小事你回去可能要特別再注意一下我看了一下"},{"start":485.578,"end":507.762,"text":"我們這個永續發展目標的資源解釋報告裡面這個重視生態永續這一一個單項那這個單項裡面我們有一個規定就是我們會去各個全國各機關查核需辦理生態檢核案件的這個情形那表格我們也都有但是我就發現從109年110年111到112好像這個案那個你看一下你有那個表嗎"},{"start":516.345,"end":531.334,"text":"那個案件數好像這個逐年增加這個表格在這裡你看這個案件數好像好像這個逐年從109年的21、29、14、48、40好像後面這個1、2、1、3開始這個數量都比明顯前三年來的高那我們的同仁有提到說這個工程人員對生態的認知較為不足"},{"start":545.52,"end":567.929,"text":"那本席是建議就是說那就是我們如果知道原因是工程人員對生態的認知不足對於永續沒有什麼概念那我們其實應該工程會發揮一點這種教育的角色怎麼把這些工程人員受訓啊或者是可能也辦過受訓那方法不好那我們可不可以想個什麼方法讓他們有一點這種概念就是說"},{"start":569.389,"end":580.114,"text":"這個一方面輔導一方面要適度有一些懲戒的手段讓這個工作得以持續不然的話我們再往後退步這數字比較難看主委你覺得呢"},{"start":582.336,"end":604.765,"text":"委員報告我們大概有幾個工具第一個就是在機關如果要提報金職獎的部分在評分裡面生態查核是一個加分第二個就是我們有委託相關的專業團體辦理生態檢核的研習那明年度有一個200萬的預算雖然不多"},{"start":605.265,"end":627.421,"text":"但是就是針對機關或者其他對生態檢測有興趣的舉辦研習這部分是有在做那畢竟整個國家的這個公共工程非常多當然有的機關對生態檢測並不是那麼熟悉而且是這近幾年的事情而已所以我們會加強宣導跟教育推動"},{"start":628.061,"end":656.419,"text":"好,沒問題啦,我是說齁,主委這個數字我都是看數字管理啦齁,我一路把你們都問這些數字的事情所以我的意思是說我只能從你們提供的這些數據裡面來看這一項工作我們同仁到底落實的狀況怎麼樣阿至少我們如果不要讓他說好像你看從20幾件變40幾件齁,如果用%數來講這倍增了所以注意一下那個數字就是說到底原因出在哪裡,怎麼讓它降低好不好,阿你就自己想一個方法來做啦齁"},{"start":657.301,"end":657.602,"text":"OK好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":875,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（12時6分）謝謝主席。請NCC黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主秘好。有關詐騙的建議、要求，NCC有一些回應，本席覺得很好，但是對這個回應，我開始覺得你們的作法好像目標是要打詐、防詐，但是可能方法上會有很大的問題。本席過去一直在說，企業發送簡訊，譬如說政府現在像中華電信的111……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：通用簡碼的部分。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，通用簡碼。本席認為通用簡碼的運用，至少應該從大型企業，譬如說像銀行、政府部門……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：銀行已經開始了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我知道，所以它都已經開始做，這個是好的事情，因為我們防詐主要讓消費者知道這個簡訊是真的還是假的，所以當我們在告知或者教育消費大眾的時候，很清楚地知道只要辨識上面發來的，不管是111或者是什麼，這個碼就一定是真的簡訊。現在NCC發函三大電信業者的作法是，你們在11月13號公布一個新規定，在5天以後要實施，這個規定裡面的重點就是這個簡訊如果帶有URL或者短網址或者電話號碼，這些都要求要去跟三大業者進行登記，也就是我這個公司想要發的簡訊內容有短網址啦、有電話啦，就要先去登記。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。所以換言之，你們這個政策要做的是什麼？做的就是只要想發這種大宗簡訊的、有這些內文含這些東西的，就先控管住了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，好！現在問題來了，主秘你現在知道有多少業者要發這個簡訊，在三大業者那裡排隊嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：根據他們給我的資料是說一年大概有一億則。"],["蔡委員其昌：對！有多少現在排隊在等待？這個叫白名單，就是要進入那個白名單，你知道現在有多少的民間公司去申請三大業者要進入白名單，然後在那裡等，不知道什麼時候可以開始做？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我大概知道委員的意思啦！因為是這樣子，過去的話，其實是只要在網際網路那邊登錄一下，刷個卡，他們的簡訊代發業者或是個人，一下就出去了，所以當時造成非常多的詐騙。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：後來我們發現這不是辦法，所以要在兩者之間取得平衡。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：也就是說，在詐騙跟方便、迅速之間要取得平衡。委員您在說的是現在電信業者有在抱怨有一些沒有辦法必須要……應該是說簡訊代發業者，主要是簡訊代發業者這邊，因為電信業者大概都會以自動化方式來處理，但是在簡訊代發業者那邊，因為過去很方便，網際網路那邊只要看到有繳費，它就把訊號丟到電信業者，然後就送出去了，現在主要大概都是簡訊代發業者那邊可能稍微會有點抱怨，認為這樣的結果可能會造成他們在服務上面的一些延宕。跟委員報告，因為這個制度是剛開始實施，所以難免在實施的過渡期間，也許會有些遲延，但是我想大概過一陣子，大家溝通完之後，應該會解決這個問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，其實是這樣子，我剛剛一開始就跟你肯定，你們想要做防詐、打詐，我肯定！但是方法極糟啦！10月13號公布，18號實施，所以現在大家就等於生意不用做了嘛！簡單講，不要講到詐騙，我的服務處要發一個聖誕節的簡訊，因為我的量大，可能有兩萬通，我要透過代發業者發也不可以，因為我上面有留：您最真誠的朋友，服務專線幾號，有我的服務處電話號碼。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為委員是名人，他們可能還更擔心。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思就是要告訴你，你們要做這個事情，我沒有意見。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：目標是對的，你是要打詐、防詐嘛，但是你們公布到實施就只有5天的時間，電信業者都不知道怎麼消化這些來申請要進入白名單的人。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我的意思只是告訴你，你們今天回去應該趕快去研議。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，知道。"],["蔡委員其昌：不然就是時間稍微久一點，或者就多一點人，我們想辦法，問電信業者你有沒有能力吃下、處理量多少，民怨就不會起，這就是配套嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，這個動作其實已經預告兩個月了，中華電信比較快，另外兩家電信業者到18號，現在癥結問題其實都是在簡訊代發業者那一端，因為簡訊代發業者……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我其實沒有在乎是哪一端，因為簡訊代發業者它所承受的還是我們嘛！譬如我只要講我個人就好了，我也是透過簡訊代發業者去幫我發，但它告訴我就是不可以做嘛！你現在懂我的意思嗎？就是說我們政府很多政策之所以失敗，立意都是良善的，但是如果在設計整個實施程序跟方法，沒有把它的配套想得完善一點，就會導致民怨又起啦！而這個民怨不是只有幾個代發業者，因為代發業者就是告訴我不能發！因為沒辦法，就是還在排隊，你現在懂我的意思嗎？所以抱怨的一定是我，不是代發業者嘛！代發業者當然也會抱怨，因為它做不到生意，它也抱怨嘛！我很贊成，你們真的要有作為去管，我幫你肯定，很好！你們有想要打詐、防詐，而且動作積極。但你預告兩個月，它造成塞車，如果我是NCC，我就直接處罰了，在兩個月前我就告訴你，你為什麼不做？我就直接處罰電信業者了啊！因為你把我的話當放屁！那我就處罰你！我們是有公權力的。電信業者怠惰不作為如果是真的，現在就換成下游的人在抱怨，我們做的這個政策好像一副……我當然知道打詐最重要，可是我們要怎麼讓這個工作不會因為做A損B、一下做B又損A，我們怎麼讓A、B都可以，雖然不能全滿意，但都可以接受！這就是政治能力嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們的政府官員就是要有這個政治能力，我只是今天來看到太多人在抱怨，我也收到很多的陳情。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們馬上檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：好不好？馬上想一個方法怎麼可以快速消化，我是不知道，但你們有很多手段可以做嘛！看要怎麼樣快速去消化，讓這個聲音可以下來？但是做這件事情是對的，就是防詐、打詐這件事情，本席絕對百分之一百的支持。謝謝。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：請陳主委。"],["主席：請工程會陳主委。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，我這邊只有一個小事，你回去可能要特別再注意一下，我看了一下永續發展目標的自願檢視報告裡面重視生態永續這一個單項，這個單項裡面有一個規定，就是會去全國各機關查核需辦理生態檢核案件情形，表格我們也都有，但是我就發現從109年、110年、111年到112年，你有那個表嗎？你看一下那個案件數好像逐年增加，從109年的21、29、14、48、40，後面112年、113年開始的數量明顯都比前三年來得高，我們的同仁有提到工程人員對生態的認知較為不足，本席是建議，我們如果知道原因是工程人員對生態認知不足，對於永續沒有什麼概念，那工程會應該發揮一點教育的角色，怎麼讓這些工程人員受訓，可能也辦過受訓，但方法不好，那我們可不可以想個什麼方法讓他們有一點這種概念？也就是說，一方面輔導，一方面也要適度有一些懲戒的手段，讓這個工作得以持續；不然的話，我們再往後退步，這數字比較難看啦！主委，你覺得呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，我們大概有幾個工具，第一個就是機關如果要提報金質獎，在評分裡面，生態查核是一個加分；第二個就是我們有委託相關專業團體辦理生態檢核的研習，明年度有一個200萬的預算，雖然不多，但就是針對機關，或者其他對生態檢核有興趣的舉辦研習，這部分是有在做。畢竟整個國家的公共工程非常多，當然有的機關對生態檢核並不是那麼熟悉，而且這是近幾年的事情而已，所以我們會加強宣導跟教育來推動。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，沒問題啦！主委，我都是看數字管理啦！一直以來我都是問你關於數字的事情，所以我的意思是說，我只能從你們提供的這些數據來看這一項工作同仁到底落實的狀況怎麼樣，至少不要讓它從二十幾件變成四十幾件，如果用%數來講，這是倍增了！所以注意一下那個數字到底原因出在哪裡，怎麼讓它降低，好不好？你們就自己想一個方法來做啦！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。接下來邀請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","羅智強","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算；四、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基\n金預算；五、審查113 年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計 2 案\n（第一案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}