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"好請主任秘書報告出席人數報告聯席會出席委員22人以主法定人數好先來開會進行討論事項請先讀審查行人交通安全設施條例草案一、行政院函請審議行人交通安全設施條例草案案二、委員黃捷等16人擬具行人交通安全設施條例草案案。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1800.454,"end":1827.859,"text":"本路議程所內討論事項合併審打主席現在介紹在場的委員及官員首先我們王美惠委員李伯義委員"},{"start":1836.104,"end":1864.84,"text":"好,我們出席的官員我們內政部部長林六昌部長國土管理署署長吳新修署長都市基層工程組組長蔡一強法令企劃科科長吳文雄政務次長"},{"start":1867.056,"end":1883.771,"text":"陳彥博路政及道安司司長黃應貴公共運輸及監理司專門委員陳靜偉綜合規劃司檢任基政陳柏旭"},{"start":1894.994,"end":1899.398,"text":"法治署署長陳宏達公路局局長陳文瑞運輸研究所運輸安全組組長葉祖宏"},{"start":1922.007,"end":1948.076,"text":"經濟部國營事業管理師專門委員黃繫輝產業延期管理及營運管理組副組長陳建堂台灣電力公司副總經理陳明樹法務部參事廖江炫"},{"start":1950.987,"end":1975.623,"text":"教育部中生教育師專門委員習家倩學務特教師校安科科長陳慧文學務校安組校安科科長陳憲宥"},{"start":1988.885,"end":1996.294,"text":"好,那我們現在就請我們零六倉部長,內政部零六倉部長來做報告。好。"},{"start":2007.283,"end":2026.229,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天很榮幸代表內政部就行政院函送大院審議《行人交通安全設施條例草案條例》內容提出報告並就黃捷委員等16人提案版本提出本部處理意見請報告書名如後,敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2027.625,"end":2037.759,"text":"但隨著經濟發展所得提高機車與汽車的數量也不斷的增加解決塞車和行車便利成為交通規劃的首要課題"},{"start":2039.431,"end":2067.8,"text":"人與車的權衡之下行人的安全保障也逐漸受到壓縮而在人、車發生的交通意外事故當中行人卻是最容易受到傷害加之近年來兒童學生高齡引髮無障礙之通行權益普遍受到重視有必要就提升行人交通安全重新予以檢視與強化以達到道路上以人為本車與人相容共享安全便利的目標"},{"start":2068.92,"end":2090.439,"text":"但不僅和事故發生的原因以及民間團體的意見對於影響行人交通安全主要的問題為究為行人空間不足與不友善衝突發生的原因包括人車爭道之人走車道動線交叉之路口危機以及人行道阻礙之寸步難行等"},{"start":2092.121,"end":2110.6,"text":"盤點道路行人的危險狀況需要加速包括人行道、行人穿越道等行人交通安全設施的新闢與改善以及影響人行障礙物的排除還有包括完善通學、就醫、洽工等生活技能所需要之人行安全串聯的路網"},{"start":2111.841,"end":2131.168,"text":"本條例延續道路交通基本法的規定制定工程建設性質之作用法以建立行人動線連續之無障礙用路環境為目標建設、改善以及維護道路人行道、行人穿越道及其行人交通安全設施為立法的目的"},{"start":2132.608,"end":2153.164,"text":"嚴禮中央及地方主管機關應辦事項的規定本草案共計14條條文不分章節分別以總則計劃實施考核法則負責分類以嚴定綜合性、長期性的施政大綱提出重點改善項目以及擬定改善策略"},{"start":2154.265,"end":2182.694,"text":"設定績效指標並且由本部整合其他部會資源提出行人交通安全設施推動計劃以立直轄市縣市主管機關擬定年度行人交通安全設施改善計劃設定目標解決行人動線不安全以及不連續的問題並且逐年來推動實施每年考評績效以積極建設改善行人交通安全設施建立提供行人可無障礙連續之用路環境"},{"start":2184.164,"end":2203.914,"text":"本條例為建設作用法現行推動計劃主要依循本部與交通部自113年起編列4年400億辦理永續提升人行安全計劃後續推動及改善計劃之逐年推動期待中央及各部會、直轄市、縣市政府籌備經費積極配合"},{"start":2206.653,"end":2233.624,"text":"當然交通事故發生不是單以工程面就可以一觸可擊能需交易與監理以及執法面向同時來推進大院黃捷委員等16人所提版本共計有16條大抵與行政院函請審議之《行人交通安全設施條例》版本一紙相近大多屬於文字修正斟酌性質本部建議能以行政院版為審議基準"},{"start":2235.525,"end":2255.902,"text":"總算說明敬請各位委員予以支持行政院版與本會期完成立法程序另外也特別感謝黃捷委員等委員之提案並請能夠提供本部相關建議處理的意見上請委員參考以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2261.465,"end":2268.896,"text":"好,謝謝我們部長。那現在我們請交通部我們的次長陳次長陳業博次長"},{"start":2279.106,"end":2300.881,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早今天很高興應邀聯席委員會就行政院所送的行人交通安全設施條例跟黃委員等擬具的也是相關的一個條例兩案來提出審查那我們本部就上述"},{"start":2301.821,"end":2316.89,"text":"這兩案提供本部相關意見。相關報告也請大家參與。首先,行政院函請審議的《行人交通安全設施條例草案》內政部於今年的1月8日與2月17日兩度召開審查會議來審查。行政院相關單位也共同參與,而且也獲有共識。"},{"start":2324.594,"end":2339.074,"text":"而且行政院也在今年的3月7號在行政院會通過合轉大院來審議所以我們建議貴聯席會能夠予以支持行政院版的草案"},{"start":2340.255,"end":2364.811,"text":"至於就黃偉傑等16人擬具的這個《行人交通安全設施條例草案》他是其建立以人為本的行人步行環境、健全行人交通安全設施符合通用設計原則保障行人無障礙之使用需求本部競表感佩其內容與行政院的版本內容很相近"},{"start":2365.431,"end":2392.362,"text":"建議可於審查會的時候並行政院的版本來共同討論另外在這個版本裡面的第14條希望在專區內就違反道路交通管理處罰條例的規定的事項來與裁罰我們本部認為現行的道路交通管理處罰條例一定有完整的相關的處罰的規定從舉發裁決到救濟等等的一個程序有相關的規範"},{"start":2393.422,"end":2416.354,"text":"所以建議無需在於這個設施條例裡頭重復的規定至於說如果大家認為說違反在專區內的相關的一個交通管理事件需要以比較高額的就是最高額來處罰其實我們也可以在我們本部的道路交通管理事件統一裁罰基準表裡面去做一些規範"},{"start":2418.436,"end":2432.274,"text":"後續本部在這個條例通過之後我們會繼續來推動剛才部長所提到的永續提升人行的安全計畫裡頭大概會要辦理有關入口行人的安全設施的改善"},{"start":2432.774,"end":2456.162,"text":"還有改善人行道、還有校園周邊暨行車安全的改善還有行人及高齡友善區的示範區、減少路側障礙還有提升非耗資化路口的安全等六大面向來完善人行的環境另外本部每年也將會邀請中央相關機關單位跟專家學者組成所謂的評審小組"},{"start":2457.582,"end":2465.909,"text":"針對各縣市年度執行道路交通安全的績效進行評比然後藉糧卸的競爭與獎勵來精進相關的道安的作為"},{"start":2469.846,"end":2490.78,"text":"另外本部將透過行政院的中央道路交通安全匯報及本部的聯席會議以及持續推動行人安全環境的總體檢跟行動改善的方案來輔導各縣市來落實人行的安全"},{"start":2492.581,"end":2520.141,"text":"終上說明本部很感佩相關委員提案並將與內政部後續建立公路與道路設計的溝通機制確定未來在相關技術規範能有一致的方向與共識以持續推動檢討相關交通法規和設計規範保障用路人的通行權利落實所謂人本的交通環境以上的報告請各位委員肆於指教謝謝"},{"start":2524.189,"end":2524.529,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2543.968,"end":2559.603,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝部長我今天提這個行人交通安全設施條例其實跟院版大致是差不多的只是有比較多的是文字修正因為立法院在去年已經三讀通過道路安全的基本法"},{"start":2560.283,"end":2581.005,"text":"《基本法》明定以人為本的宗旨就是要把傷害降到最低要以公共運輸為優先緊急車輛可以通行而且要有無障礙的設計而且道路的公共使用的安全的用戶環境跟文化必須要被建立所以我覺得接下來進到這個具體的規劃非常的重要"},{"start":2581.485,"end":2582.186,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":2598.767,"end":2598.787,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":2617.379,"end":2634.274,"text":"那行人的交通安全設施的條例就變得非常重要希望可以早日的達到交通零死亡的目標所以在我的版本裡面有幾個重點就是希望可以避免各個地方政府按照自己的標準進行改善工作所以我們由中央來統一訂定"},{"start":2635.355,"end":2658.337,"text":"行人交通安全的設施改善推動計畫然後還有要研擬行人交通安全設施的設計以及管理及維護規範督導地方主管機關來辦理行人步行安全的環境跟便利性的調查這些前置作業都是必要的最後把這些指引都訂出來再由地方的政府進行具體的行人的"},{"start":2659.037,"end":2659.217,"text":"內政部委員會長"},{"start":2687.107,"end":2712.88,"text":"好 謝謝我們黃捷委員的提案謝謝那其他單位報告請委員執行參閱並刊登公報那現在我們進行審打委員執行前原列幾項宣告本聯席會委員發言6分鐘必要延長2分鐘本委員會委員發言6分鐘"},{"start":2716.162,"end":2740.07,"text":"上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天我們有法案處理本次會議我們就不處理臨時提案請各位委員有沒有意見沒有好沒有意見那我們就照樣通過那我們請登記第一位我們黃建斌委員的執行好謝謝"},{"start":2748.567,"end":2750.469,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們部長請我們內政部長"},{"start":2759.472,"end":2783.819,"text":"部長早安部長其實本席非常認同這個以人為本的這個交通安全管理政策我想這是全球的趨勢那特別在台灣這個地窄人稠的地方它未來也是勢在必行的一個法規那我這邊要就教一下部長在院版的這個行人交通安全設施條例草案裡面其中第4條第5條裡面名列相關的這個計畫經費我想請教一下部長這個經費的來源是從哪裡"},{"start":2788.434,"end":2800.033,"text":"我剛在報告的時候其實已經有說明了我們這個法是一個作用法那相關的經費的部分就是我們現在跟交通部所編列的4年400億的一個預算"},{"start":2801.89,"end":2828.455,"text":"委員這個是全部由中央還是說中央補助然後地方自籌?這個當然就是有一定比例。中央補助跟地方自籌嗎?OK。 補助就是我自己簽稿的所在。委員這個可能在這個補助部分在針對六都財源比較情況財源窗戶比較好的這個地方他可能實際上是沒問題可是部長這針對一些偏鄉的縣市像台中縣還有一些鄉鎮公所"},{"start":2829.415,"end":2836.041,"text":"在他的財源就不是這麼充裕的情況之下他要再拿出這一些配額款他在財政是無理是學長家創"},{"start":2837.766,"end":2839.568,"text":"我記得是他們所列管的"},{"start":2864.309,"end":2864.349,"text":"獲得100%補助"},{"start":2882.388,"end":2910.17,"text":"本席以過去在擔任鄉長的經驗就鄉鎮來說以現在一般來講中央的政策就是中央85%然後地方15%大概是這樣的分配其實以過去本席在大湖鄉當鄉長10%對鄉鎮來講他的負擔就非常重我們光是鄉道每年維護成本都是很困擾的事情那現在這個計畫實施下去他是強制地方政府一定要來執行對不對"},{"start":2911.391,"end":2913.692,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":2939.079,"end":2939.299,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":2966.904,"end":2990.13,"text":"政府在進行相關的一個改善的時候他都有一定的一個程序所以當然不是那個化了之後就執行執行那地方政府其實這一部分其實都有一定的一個流程他也都其實都很有經驗了是 部長這就是德琪要講的齁如果你要採取的話那這所有權利我們是有進行補償的動作這個應該是要看事實的認定把那個"},{"start":2991.75,"end":3012.821,"text":"如果到時候你這個執行下去,地方政府跟民眾會有就糾紛會高,那中央怎麼處理?那對於這個檢討中,有什麼樣的處理?沒有,這個應該不至於,其實現在已經各縣市在推動的時候,其實也這個相關成功的經驗跟案例其實很...像是這騎友室有私有的嘛,那你現在要做成品,你造成的損害不是,也要項目要賠償給所有權利嘛,對不對?"},{"start":3012.821,"end":3012.941,"text":"沒有。"},{"start":3015.662,"end":3040.652,"text":"這個改善的時候就沒有什麼問題嘛,啊如果你我剛剛在講說事實的認定嘛,如果它是你講說如果是你說如果是破壞,那我就不曉得這個破壞的意思是什麼?你像說假設這個像我們如果這個要取品以防則出口要改建吼,那這邊一定會影響到啊,那你房子要蓋一定會影響他的管理嘛。"},{"start":3047.509,"end":3056.795,"text":"法規的宗旨就是要建立連續還有無障礙的用途環境我們目前其餘的人行道常常有這種高低不平的情況那如果兩邊的高度"},{"start":3057.967,"end":3062.448,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":3087.681,"end":3114.338,"text":"他當然不會只是兩邊這麼短距離他基本上就是一個大的一個區域當然就是他整個順便會把那個高層重新去做調整跟重新轉來符合這個無障礙的這樣通行部長在法國裡面你沒有先說高度要多少這個不會去這個是一個整體的一個政策跟一個框架不會在這個地方遇到這樣的情況部裡面有什麼覺得我們當然會有更細的這些執行的這些指引"},{"start":3115.279,"end":3130.48,"text":"本期也是特別強調是針對這些人民使用族群所以身心障礙這個部分我們要考慮進去的另外想要再請教就是說你如果沒有辦法設置人行道的這些道路像是小巷子"},{"start":3131.653,"end":3132.614,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":3150.934,"end":3167.267,"text":"委員你剛剛提到的那個應該是標識型的行人的通道跟我們所謂要劃設的那個行人友善區可能不太一樣行人友善區到時候他會做一個規劃然後他也會公告那那個如果是行人的標識線他劃設的這個寬度多寬我請吳署長來做說明"},{"start":3174.502,"end":3192.045,"text":"跟委員報告啦齁,其實大概分幾個概念。我想很小的巷子,那就是看你要不要把它當作一個行人優先區。如果行人優先區它是不需要畫,但是它就是必須要在這裡面去清楚地去標示說它這是以行人為主的。"},{"start":3192.714,"end":3192.934,"text":"謝謝署長的說明"},{"start":3210.397,"end":3228.17,"text":"市長,北市州要再請教一個事情。市長,再請教最後一個就是,去年我們新北市那個新埔捷運站發生很遺憾的憾事,就是那個冷氣掉下來砸死大學生這個事件。這個算不算人行道安全的問題?跟委員報告,我想在所有的職業安全裡面,"},{"start":3229.386,"end":3230.287,"text":"市長本席要提醒的"},{"start":3247.119,"end":3271.71,"text":"人行道安全它的設計跟設施的更新都是最基本的但是人行道往上的空間延伸這塊是沒有討論到的我們應該要確保就是說我們人行道上方這個空間不會有一些東西掉落下來不管它有沒有在施工 不管它有沒有在施工它掉下來這個問題我們要考慮在裡面我想這部分也請納入在我們這一次的這個討論了解好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":3276.691,"end":3277.092,"text":"蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":3297.605,"end":3298.967,"text":"道路交通安全基本法通過的時候"},{"start":3314.649,"end":3338.006,"text":"我也跟李昆澤委員、黃珊漢委員一起召開了公聽會我們在在的表示說其實行人要能夠安全不是只有交通這個部分耗資的部分而已而是工程的部分更為重要因為把路、道路整個交通的概念、工程都做好那其實安全性才會提高所以今天要討論這個條例我是非常贊成的可是這就回到了一個問題部長還有次長我們今天一條"},{"start":3343.55,"end":3351.774,"text":"台灣的道路有多少單位在進行工程有些是內政部吧有些是交通部吧這個沒有問題吧"},{"start":3353.24,"end":3379.786,"text":"如果在地方政府的話他會交通單位警察單位這個公務單位也都會有還有包括這個這是相關嘛但是我說設計建制的時候其實是交通部跟內政部會有差嘛那意思是說如果一條道路的設置尤其是以全台灣因為我們的生活圈是整個全國可以說是一起的一條路是串聯各縣市這樣的狀況所以一條路在幹如果"},{"start":3380.787,"end":3394.327,"text":"雖然分屬很多單位去蓋但它的標準一致全國的道路設置標準從大到小都一致的話那我沒有問題分很多單位去蓋沒有問題但是如果是每個單位的標準不太一致的話"},{"start":3395.228,"end":3414.537,"text":"那可能問題就大了我先給部長和次長這邊看一下我偏查我們所有的相關規範我們現在在該條例不管是從鋪面來分上有耗資標線下有工程跟道路交通工程的相關規範有6種部長我想請問這6種裡面哪一些是跟你內政部相關的"},{"start":3422.16,"end":3441.155,"text":"市區道路的部分還有都市人本交通的部分所以是1234你用漢字講的話是哪一個?一跟六一跟六四跟五都是通用的四跟五是通用的那部長算是還清楚喔一和六果然是有做過地方首長喔一和六是內政部那這個答案次長你同意嗎?同意所以2345全部都是交通部的"},{"start":3449.538,"end":3458.844,"text":"一條柏油路,我們如果是要鋪設柏油路的話我們柏油路鋪設,我現在說柏油路的摩擦係數防滑係數的話那請問這樣的一條路是用哪幾項規範來規定是跟哪幾個,剛剛123456我們現在分嘛,這個工程上,以工程來講的話"},{"start":3477.489,"end":3499.743,"text":"其實它又會分是市區道路和非市區道路對不對對 如果是在市區的話是內政部啦對 它又會因為是對 它又因為我們的路段是市區道路或非市區道路它適用的規範又不一樣嘛所以會牽涉到一市區道路的話是用一的規範非市區道路的話是用二的規範好 那我們如果現在講紅綠燈耗製的話呢如果耗製的話會用哪幾個規範"},{"start":3504.861,"end":3522.507,"text":"其實是會用3和5啦交通工程的規範可是你去回頭去看剛剛這個123456到底哪一些規範是工程哪一些是號誌明明在講工程的會有它的規範從名稱開始喔它就是號誌標籤比如說我們的3其實它寫的是"},{"start":3527.009,"end":3540.672,"text":"公程我們的二其實是工程綠線設計規劃綠線的綠線設置可是它其實是跟號誌有關的啊那如果是我們在講這個非市區的柏油路二的話其實又是跟工程有關的所以從這個工程的名稱來看的話我們從整個123456這一些跟工程大陸相關的我們下個月來看的話"},{"start":3556.176,"end":3577.672,"text":"他會發現從名稱到設置的規範的內容範疇其實台灣的六項主要的道路設計規範是都不一樣內容都不一樣所以你會發現同一條路比如說好了我們再講旁邊的中華路好了啦我們再下一頁好了我們再講這個中華路旁邊西門町的中華路請問中華路的"},{"start":3581.315,"end":3584.08,"text":"市政府直接負責,但是如果再上提到中央的主管機關呢?"},{"start":3594.184,"end":3621.264,"text":"事緒道路所以是內政部事緒道路可是他同時也是國三阿他是國三號台三阿台三阿在公共區講到貢獻的部分是來互相協商那協議的結果是由事緒道路直轄市政府所以這是要透過協商嘛所以實務上你第一是你必須他如果貢獻的時候是透過協商那協商的到最後是哪一個層級不一定因為是協商所以結果不一定結果不一定的狀況下是要哪一種規範就不一定阿"},{"start":3623.725,"end":3646.993,"text":"我是不是可以跟委員簡單的說明一下因為國家的道路系統剛才上一頁有看到有的是公路系統有的是市區道路系統所以它在管理上就是依照市區系統跟公路系統在做剛才有看到市區道路還有附屬設施的設計規範那公路也有路線的設計規範跟附屬設施的設計規範"},{"start":3650.154,"end":3650.174,"text":" ﹝廣告"},{"start":3671.397,"end":3673.379,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":3696.721,"end":3698.883,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":3725.441,"end":3725.481,"text":"議員黃捷等"},{"start":3755.961,"end":3779.328,"text":"我這條路因為是不同的主管單位下來做的那我的規範就不一樣蓋出來的路就不一樣啊部長跟市長你可以明白我的意思嗎你們剛剛的分類我接受我接受因為而且行之有年大家都知道彼此的權責在哪裡了我現在的問題正是在說因為這個規範的下面因為你的分類下面的規範會不一樣"},{"start":3781.209,"end":3789.074,"text":"所以可能蓋出來的路不一樣尤其是實用上會變成是什麼呢因為這條線可能會貢獻啊有時候是我們開一開一下是省道欸接下來又開到市區道路了可是對我實用來講是一樣的一條路啊那結果不同的狀況會如何呢所以我今天要提出來的其實是啊我建議我們這六大規範應該要能夠一次審查統一來看出一套一套標準"},{"start":3807.907,"end":3823.059,"text":"你這麼多年沒選我去查有很多都是60年都沒有改變了這跟其他國家的設計規範工程設計規範是差很遠的我這個建議部長跟市長可以同意嗎這六個應該要一起審查他可以看出同一套工程標準啊"},{"start":3826.111,"end":3842.268,"text":"委員說明了原則上相關的設計要一致這是我想是一個大原則在這還是回歸到我剛才講的因為每一條道路經過的時候它有些是屬於公路系統有些是屬於市區道路系統"},{"start":3842.768,"end":3842.928,"text":"議員黃捷等16人發言委員會復議"},{"start":3867.458,"end":3868.659,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":3897.398,"end":3903.059,"text":"我希望能夠做一個討論。謝謝部長跟次長。好,謝謝我們蘇巧慧委員的執行。那下一位我們請李坤澤委員。謝謝。好,謝謝召委。請一下林右昌部長還有陳彥博次長。好,部長、次長。"},{"start":3927.259,"end":3942.323,"text":"委員好 部長好 我們相對於今天是主要來討論有關於行人設施安全的相關的一些法令的基本規範那這邊我們要提醒部長跟次長依照我們2022年跟2023年針對我國"},{"start":3946.484,"end":3955.49,"text":"交通事故死亡人數來做一個分析在2022年死亡人數達到3064人2023年在去年達到3023人"},{"start":3963.291,"end":3976.13,"text":"那在這樣一個都是高達3000人以上我們的人口是2300萬的這樣一個人口日本是1億2500萬但是日本的死亡人數大概是在2600人"},{"start":3977.824,"end":3978.004,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":3995.14,"end":4018.064,"text":"行人的部分都是高達400人左右機車騎士更多是2000人以上自行車也高達250人左右相關的小轎車開車的人大概是160人左右那我們今天討論到行人的這個安全大概400人左右其中有一半是在路口"},{"start":4019.079,"end":4039.819,"text":"所以我們對於相關的行人設施的安全就分成兩個部分一個是路段的品質的提升一個是路口的安全改善來部長簡單說明一下我們對於路口對於路段的品質提升不管是改善寬度連續性跟平整性的問題我們要提出具體的做法來部長說明一下"},{"start":4043.586,"end":4069.611,"text":"我想幾個部分第一個我們現在當然一般來講我們台灣都會希望這個路段是又順又直不過其實交通事故其實發生很重要的一個原因是車速所以在國外的話他們對於路段的一個設計其實反而是朝向車速降低的方式來處理車速指示造勢原因其中一樣我們對於相關路段的這個品質的提升"},{"start":4070.552,"end":4085.154,"text":"內政部、交通部共同責任改善寬度、連續性、平整性的問題必須提出相關的做法另外就是入口的安全改善利用設計提升安全性"},{"start":4086.616,"end":4095.429,"text":"這兩三年大家都有提出具體的一個討論,內政部也研議多久我們要減少視野的這種減少視角的還有行進的動線減少這種焦點那噪音的風險我們也必須要去盤點"},{"start":4102.686,"end":4131.347,"text":"去瞭解它的因素跟它的統計來進行事故的改善來部長先說明一下我們有做什麼規劃所以這個就是我們現在在這一次的條例裡面有特別提到人行道的這個庇護的空間那怎麼樣讓入口退縮或者說這個庇護的強制庇護的這個環境增加庇護的空間停留的一個空間這個這一次都有在這個條例裡面把它制定進來"},{"start":4132.939,"end":4136.025,"text":"在我們相關的討論到提升這種道路品質"},{"start":4137.298,"end":4162.821,"text":"路段的不連續、障礙物多這個問題在草案中都有提到其實在現行的法規裡面也有一些基本的規範但是仍然發現很多的這樣的一個不幸的事件那就是我們必須要進一步的來擬清相關的原因那我們可以看到很多路段其實它現實上路寬不足應該規範都市更新的時候"},{"start":4164.223,"end":4178.225,"text":"將人行道的空間要預留讓人行道的空間能夠隨著都市更新來逐漸的完整而且我認為要刪除一定路寬應設置人行道的文字要改成道路"},{"start":4179.482,"end":4193.377,"text":"道路邊一定要設置人行道讓人行道成為必要的設施來部長說明一下你的看法這個如果是在現在更新的地區我們現在都是這樣子要求那另外在這次的條例裡面我們也有強制要偵測這個B特灣"},{"start":4196.696,"end":4211.666,"text":"市長說明一下,我們對於相關啊,行人的一再發生這樣的相關的事故,尤其是在路口我們在過去也有相關的一些啊,路口的相關的改善,也有做類型來做統計,但是呢"},{"start":4212.446,"end":4235.522,"text":"都是針對車禍的類型去做分析而已沒有針對它的直接原因跟間接原因去做歸納有沒有去做追蹤來市長說明一下對我想跟委員報告剛才委員講不管是在路口或路段其實從去年開始我們就有提供一些相關的指引跟一個處理的原則供各直轄縣市政府來參考原因"},{"start":4237.063,"end":4261.904,"text":"另外我們也有一個要推動相關的向路口的交通安全的一個檢核來看他是哪些有潛在的一個風險那至於委員特別提到的說應該透過噪音來做相關的一個分析也跟委員報告每一個事件不幸的事件或是事故發生之後呢到當地的這個地方政府他的相關的道安單位都會進行這樣的一個分析然後也會回饋到我們"},{"start":4264.805,"end":4291.056,"text":"他要針對造勢相關的一個紀錄但是我們對於直接噪音的紀錄之外還要間接噪音的一個調查而且噪音要去分類要做完整啊因為你還要定期的檢討來做相關的一個改善的一個基礎還有我們對於行人交通安全設施推動計畫相關的資料及改善進度也應該要建立公開的機制來次長說明一下"},{"start":4292.435,"end":4309.24,"text":"這部分我們會在相關的這個網站會來公布這個不管是交通安全設施或者是國家的綱要計畫或推動計畫等等的然後推動計畫上所執行的一些工作事項都會在相關的網站上來做公布"},{"start":4311.274,"end":4338.232,"text":"部長,我們現在台灣的社會已經是從高齡化社會邁向高齡社會也漸漸朝著超高齡社會在邁進我們對於相關的道路跟路口應該要考慮到引法族以及隨著使用者來做改變來做調整包括引法族還有身心障礙者我們道路使用的需求我們也要一併的納入考量我們以紅綠燈來為例"},{"start":4341.986,"end":4352.464,"text":"黃綠燈目前黃綠燈的設置大概是只有考慮車流跟車道的數量而且只有規範黃燈的秒數是不是來次長說明一下"},{"start":4357.517,"end":4358.578,"text":"市長 我們的重點是在說目前紅綠燈僅考慮這個車流跟車道的數量而且只規範這種黃燈的秒數"},{"start":4386.598,"end":4412.788,"text":"紅燈跟綠燈往往是由地方縣市政府及警政機關的自行規範跟執行這種做法都沒有考慮到將逐漸高齡化的問題納入考量道路入口的設計也應該要考慮未來高齡化的這樣的一個趨勢將人的流量跟高齡者的步行速度要納入考量而且要符合便於生氣障礙者使用的通用設計"},{"start":4414.403,"end":4428.029,"text":"民務部長簡單說明一下我來回答一下就是有關這個標示標線設置規則剛才委員特別提到要考慮到高齡化的這個問題我們會在後續的相關的檢討裡頭予以納入是好好謝謝我們李寬哲委員的執行那請我們下一位我們的張宏祿委員"},{"start":4451.809,"end":4452.872,"text":"我請部長跟次長請部長還有我們次長"},{"start":4463.09,"end":4489.731,"text":"委員長其實我們之前國土署頒布的這個都市人本交通設計手冊其實只是手冊啦那我們這一次行人安全設施條例這個是一定有一個法定的位階啦所以已經提高不少嘛對不對所以我們其實就是要解決啦這個行人的主要的重點解決行人的安全吧用路的安全對不對對對啦齁"},{"start":4492.993,"end":4493.193,"text":"國土署委員"},{"start":4509.505,"end":4510.426,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":4532.711,"end":4557.363,"text":"而且現在在網站上也都開始在募集大家的一些參與的一個意願我為什麼會特別提這個我覺得利益是很好的但是署長我們這一個條例這樣出來之後我們預計是要花400億 對不對那我們你給各縣市政府他們有沒有自行規劃設計的權利"},{"start":4559.301,"end":4581.336,"text":"有,當然就是自行規劃的權利。問題就來了,我們中央有沒有一個統一的標準給他們?有,工程的設計標準都有。現在是說對民眾來講,如果地方的這個規劃單位,他如果只是從單純的道路設計的角度來看,"},{"start":4581.926,"end":4600.724,"text":"有時候他會比較容易忽視了民眾真正使用的時候因為當地的環境不同可能會有一些設計上應該要做一些調整但是今天如果工程單位不清楚這一些的時候其他做出來很可能民眾不一定會買單或是照樣使用所以為什麼要民眾參與其實也有這樣的一個"},{"start":4601.4,"end":4601.42,"text":"民眾稱﹖"},{"start":4628.288,"end":4637.802,"text":"由下而上的話就是剛才提到全民參與的這個公安的一個平台所以讓他有不同的一個機制可以把需要改善的這個地方可以提出來"},{"start":4639.414,"end":4663.093,"text":"我也補充一下,其實今年會比較特別優先就是說因為地方我們也擔心地方政府在做的時候不會考慮到哪些路段真正是民眾需要的所以為什麼要讓民眾參與就民眾投票先來告訴政府哪些路段哪些路口是最優先的那這樣的話我們也可以在審查地方提案的時候做了一個很重要的一個參考"},{"start":4665.675,"end":4685.751,"text":"我知道,但我的問題的重點是雖然這個民眾說哪個路口要先優先改善、要先解決但是地方政府他在規劃設計的時候啊你們中央沒有給他一套標準我跟你講你錢到地方啊,絕對是每個人設計都不一樣我就再舉一個例子"},{"start":4687.082,"end":4701.278,"text":"像我們板橋的長江路我也質詢過了我們好不容易花了給地方政府給新北市政府這麼多錢那他亂搞亂設計那你們國土署也沒他的辦法啊"},{"start":4702.452,"end":4719.908,"text":"對不對我很擔心未來的這筆錢捏到地方地方啊他可能啊有的縣市首長他覺得啊這筆錢啊他要這個我們是改善行人的交通安全這筆錢不是改善市容的景觀"},{"start":4721.212,"end":4747.472,"text":"他到時候會生出來行人的安全並不是第一搞不好他把人行道設計得他想要的多漂亮怎樣但不符合人民的使用這一點我今天要問的這一點才是重點我相信縣市首長每個人都有每個人自己的想法對不對但我們要的是給用路人的安全而已給行人的安全而已我覺得這一點我們要去想辦法有沒有個規範"},{"start":4751.329,"end":4773.339,"text":"其實這也是我們在這過程中一直很擔心的問題就是說你做的東西到底跟民眾真正的使用效果有沒有真正達到一致那所以這一次的擴大民眾參與先從提案開始其實過程當中我們會針對每年的一個做出來的成果也會再擴大民眾才邀請他們"},{"start":4774.335,"end":4789.69,"text":"舉出他們真正使用的感受,那這樣的話其實會比較容易收集到正確的意見,就是說你做出來不一定是民眾真正很想要的,尤其是擔心的是說你做出來跟他的使用行為是差異很大。 不是不是,署長我知道你的利益很大。"},{"start":4791.931,"end":4820.246,"text":"我想我們會在審查的時候會特別注意這一部分因為我們是希望透過這樣子的一個機制還有包括我們訂定出來的相關的一個要求來讓地方政府能夠真正的去完成做到說這些交通工程的部分去保護行人的一個通行之前你剛剛提到說他把它弄到其他什麼景觀、梅花等等我想我們會特別來注意這一部分"},{"start":4820.766,"end":4842.234,"text":"對啦我的意思就是部長錢要花在刀口上你這個400億下去我們是要解決所有行人的安全而不是讓地方首長又是自己去發想自己說我們要訂出一個規範啊你們在審查也要這樣子我覺得這筆錢花的才有意義啊不然剛剛署長所說的哇那個我民眾我要什麼這樣我跟你講你"},{"start":4843.014,"end":4858.162,"text":"錢都先給了,那你地方政府反應可以到你國土署,人家地方政府不理你,你有什麼用?你反而被人家罵而已啊,我反應給國土署,國土署都沒有辦法叫縣市首長去處理啊。這是一個我們必須要注意的。再來啦齁,這個啊,剛剛部長有講啦齁,這個我們會有什麼特別啊危險的地方我們優先改善啦齁,但我要這邊也要一個啊齁,"},{"start":4869.881,"end":4876.927,"text":"我們這個地方上傳的資料發生車禍的資料都準確嗎?上傳的資料因為這個造勢的這些地點它基本上是警政的系統發生之後它做了相關的一個調查之後來彙整所以基本上應該是準確才對"},{"start":4897.318,"end":4917.346,"text":"部長,我只是要提醒你,這個資料是不準確的。我不以其他地方,我以板橋我的選區來看就好了。如果說以你們目前現在的資訊,板橋有一個福州橋,我跟你講,都有發生車禍過啊。你們的數據上面,橋上一起車禍都沒有。"},{"start":4921.532,"end":4922.153,"text":"市長有沒有這種情況發生?"},{"start":4946.307,"end":4970.707,"text":"你們有沒有知道有這種情況發生跟委員報告當時因為大家著重在行人事故的這樣一個重點所以我們是用109年到112年1到6月有發生行人死傷的這樣一個案件來做統計所以剛剛委員可能講的時候他可能是有其他車禍的話沒有包括行人的部分就當時是沒有納進去的以上確實嗎"},{"start":4972.788,"end":5000.334,"text":"所以有這個資料你們有的是沒有納進去所以我覺得我們今天要解決這個問題的話這個剛剛說明的是說他可能沒有包括行人他可能是車禍但是他剛剛在講說這一個重點是那個行人行人的事故的部分那你剛剛在講的可能是車子跟車子或者車子跟摩托車我跟你講這一個東西喔我認為啦你要改善我跟你講所有的橋上有沒有人行道"},{"start":5003.175,"end":5018.499,"text":"有的有 有的可能沒有幾乎都會有比較多啦 對不對你的資訊沒有確實不管有沒有行人或有車禍你資訊沒有確實你如何去改善真正重點在哪裡我的重點是在這裡啊是好 謝謝"},{"start":5026.909,"end":5028.11,"text":"主席 交通部內政部有請"},{"start":5051.445,"end":5056.989,"text":"請我們交通部部長,內政部部長,交通部次長。委員好。部長這個早安,我先請交通部次長說明一下。這個,這樣你覺得齁,這個我們最近把整個違罪布局,把檢舉機制廢除,對行人交通安全的衝擊是什麼?請你簡單說明一下。"},{"start":5076.857,"end":5098.859,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關那個違罪布局他其實是他這個整體性上來看的時候是是鑒於說檢舉的事件多了然後祭典的制度也多了以後造成了整個社會上大概有一體兩面的一個的看法"},{"start":5099.179,"end":5099.439,"text":"議員黃捷等16人發言委員"},{"start":5115.808,"end":5134.805,"text":"這是很奇怪的本期在這邊表達立場我們當然理解因為我們現在的很多設施是不足的這是為什麼我們今天要提這個草案所以說祭典可能會影響很多人的生計安全這我們願意理解可是你因為這樣子把整個檢舉機制全部廢除相對來講很有可能會造成交通安全的倒車"},{"start":5135.686,"end":5158.923,"text":"這交通部長同意這樣的說法嗎還是你覺得不會沒有問題我跟委員報告一下檢舉制度並不是所有都是廢除的它原則上是有剛才講的有違罪不舉的那一種對你講的違罪不舉為什麼會影響行人安全我跟兩位說一下啦也跟委員報告就是違規停車嘛併排停車嘛轉角停車它會被壓縮到行人行走的空間它會對不對"},{"start":5160.144,"end":5183.602,"text":"過去的時候也許個人檢舉我覺得檢舉達人那是另外一個議題我們可以用法規的方式來排除過量檢舉這件事情可是不表示我們要把一般公平遇到這種狀況的時候一個申訴的機制把它取消掉我認為這是有問題的部長我現在要問你問題了這個過去曾經有一段時間把檢舉機制廢除的時候對於警政的衝擊是什麼可不可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":5187.241,"end":5213.217,"text":"剛剛其實市長已經有說明過其實檢舉機制一直都在並沒有廢除所以只是說交通部之前是把檢舉的範圍跟它的一個項目大量的限縮把它放寬所以在過去的話我們大概我們檢查當然差不多我們自己我們自己的部分因為它有兩部分一個是我們自己警察的這個查查然後第二部分是民眾的這個檢舉"},{"start":5214.558,"end":5238.871,"text":"部長你也清楚我也清楚啦過去那段時間我們在當議員啦所有基層警力的案量暴增啦因為以前民眾可以拍照現在不能拍照這些人很想檢舉檢舉答案怎麼辦瘋狂報警所以變成所有基層警力要跑來當這個交通警察的工作光是處理這件事情造成基層非常大的負擔所以這件事情在這一段時間好像都沒有被討論啦"},{"start":5239.972,"end":5257.165,"text":"我是覺得交通部應該好好思考你如何在這兩者中間取得平衡這方向我同意但是你全面把這些東西都變成違罪不舉的時候會造成交通安全、行人安全以及市容的破壞你也會造成警政單位非常大的執法壓力這件事情你們兩個部會有沒有商量過"},{"start":5261.521,"end":5284.258,"text":"我跟委員報告交通部跟內政部因為在有關在交通安全交通執法上其實是一體的所以我們是有充分的討論有充分的討論至於委員特別提到有關違罪布局或是祭典制度的改變我的了解在交通委員會即將會有所討論我想藉時好好討論啦我希望行政單位審慎處理啦"},{"start":5286.92,"end":5287.521,"text":"我相信交通部長不會反對我這樣的說法。"},{"start":5305.151,"end":5318.684,"text":"還是你覺得這個東西對行人安全沒有任何影響?你要這樣說我也沒有關係。你覺得勒?我想剛才我特別提到的這樣的一個議題或修法即將會在立法院委員之間來做討論。所以我想我們尊重當時討論的一個結果。謝謝。"},{"start":5322.203,"end":5346.618,"text":"我們回到今天的重點,這個行人交通安全的條例草案本席對於這件事情有幾個意見第一個,我們當然樂見內政部或是交通部撥用非常多的預算來提升各式各樣最進步的保障行人安全的設施這一點本席竟表同意但是我要提醒,曾經我們在前瞻計畫的時候做過實驗放在哪裡?放在本席的選區歸山,叫做長根新驛站"},{"start":5347.538,"end":5371.782,"text":"那個時候在地方政府執行的時候其實在地方的溝通上面有非常非常大的問題因為很多一般的普羅大眾不見得瞭解這些設施它的前瞻性、它的進步性跟它的好處以至於在推動的過程中遭受了非常多的地方民意的阻力這些東西都由地方政府承擔我甚至都要講那個時候本席作為桃園的市議員啊我還幫政府做事啊我還主動幫他做懶人包去跟我們的選區的選民去做說明"},{"start":5375.343,"end":5404.783,"text":"為什麼這個工程可以有助於改善行人安全這是我們做的事但是我要提醒部長這些事情不應該是民意代表工作我們可以協助協調但是提供合理的政策資料讓這個東西的好處跟進步性能夠被彰顯這是行政機關的責任但是我看你的草案的說明裡面你有說這個第五條二項有講幾個五個項目但這個項目裡面並沒有民眾的參與公告的程序通知協調會診的機制它是沒有入法的"},{"start":5405.183,"end":5421.256,"text":"本席希望在修法的過程中把這些東西做一個妥善而且通盤的思考中間是不是應該有個公聽會讓地方的民意也可以了解這個政策的好處跟進步性在哪裡去降低地方對於這些新設施的阻力跟疑慮部長是否同意我這樣的看法"},{"start":5422.048,"end":5447.063,"text":"我想這個在推動計畫裡面其實都有辦法訂進去我是覺得要讓他明確啦這個本身就地方的基準反應我們這些東西我沒有拿到圖我沒有拿到說明沒有拿到這個東西地方政府恐怕也不一定拿得到你這個東西不能說我中央有一個這樣的方向我撥了錢就把這些責任通通轉嫁給地方既然中央因為你現在也有公民參與的機制有很多好的這個民間的意見進來中央有這個責任啦去做會診"},{"start":5448.004,"end":5471.466,"text":"拜訪會診之後變成簡單而且人民能夠接受的這些說明也許是圖卡也好也許是文字也好也許是其他的東西也好讓地方政府在配合這個條例修正然後去大膽的去做這些設施的時候去降低地方的阻力部長同意我這樣說法嗎剛剛委員特別提到其實在這個人行環境的環境的一個改善地方政府非常的重要因為這個是會在推動人質前面我現在要講的就是來自"},{"start":5473.408,"end":5488.586,"text":"來自中央給地方的支持除了預算之外啦這些說明這些東西然後他能夠跟越接地氣越好這樣子你推動東西他才不會他才不會變掉是因為當初你推人行道拓寬很多人就講說我不要那麼寬我要留停車位什麼什麼就造成政策的自愛難行"},{"start":5489.547,"end":5505.823,"text":"政策的本意就打了折扣所以你前端說明的越清楚甚至有民意的前期的溝通管道有越明確的規定的時候推動政策的主力會下降是當然我們希望內政部照這個方向來我們也會以這個方向來要求地方政府"},{"start":5506.403,"end":5510.284,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查則不予審查:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":5535.874,"end":5551.562,"text":"如果要做啊你現在既然剛剛有講政府議題對不對你這些公家的設施你應該要帶頭做示範啊因為你相對來講主力小嘛遷移什麼東西的配套要夠完整嘛光是你跟台電溝通這些電感電箱要何去何從請問現在有沒有具體的規劃跟時程"},{"start":5555.789,"end":5577.265,"text":"報告其實在地方政府執行上來講我們這個政策下去其實搭配了相關的管制他也會都受到通知現在就變成說因為實務上來講的確會有一些在執行上你不得不給他壓力因為有可能受限於預算有可能受限於他搬遷地點所以我要給他一點時間的壓力就是說你一定要"},{"start":5578.695,"end":5594.891,"text":"所以你這樣講三個月這個我不反對但問題是三個月的時候公部門容易帶頭執行比如說也許你在三個月裡面你在哪一個區域的電乾電香快速的遷移了我覺得這對整個政策的推動它就有非常好的正面意義嘛你們有這樣子的打算嗎哪裡要先做示範區或怎麼樣"},{"start":5595.572,"end":5597.593,"text":"我現在就很擔心你這樣回答地方政府找得到的地方的話"},{"start":5625.552,"end":5627.374,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查 »:"},{"start":5647.134,"end":5675.553,"text":"當然這個就是要給一個壓力啦好最後一個是草案第6條有一個叫做步行環境調查喔這個定義好像不是很清楚喔這沒關係因為時間有限啦我們這邊就請會後你來做或是我們在討論竹條的時候你要有個非常清楚的闡釋誰來做這個步行環境的調查他的代表性是什麼他的專業性在哪裡他如何有公信力如何跟地方做合作這些都是本期未來會關心的題目希望內政部做好準備要詳細的說明我們一起讓這個政策越來越好可以嗎"},{"start":5676.974,"end":5679.675,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":5704.073,"end":5706.733,"text":"行政院提出的行人交通安全測試的條例部分首先相信台灣要回歸到就是以人為本的交通還要需要一段時間因為目前我們都還以"},{"start":5731.618,"end":5751.934,"text":"發款的方式來規範人民但是工程跟教育的部分還是非常重要的而且我們目前看到的院版的內容幾乎還沒有能到充分的保障行人的權益首先我們來看這幾張照片針對這些照片請問部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":5760.261,"end":5763.491,"text":"這個看起來應該還在施工的一個工地"},{"start":5765.599,"end":5768.44,"text":"對但是相信這樣的施工封閉情況在臺灣應該要到處都看到了所以根據我們現在的規定施工或者就是養護的期間相關單位應該要做的就是交為計劃在施工的時間設立就是行人道臨時的行人道但是"},{"start":5792.529,"end":5810.816,"text":"行法規定對於這些的臨時人行道的標準幾乎不明確導致沒什麼人在遵守我們建議應該明確的規定任何單位如果要施工或者是養護的時間應該設置臨時人行道"},{"start":5816.65,"end":5821.093,"text":"告除道路的設施障礙屋外並根據行人的樣態規劃無障礙的空間以確保所有人的通行安全。部長你同意嗎?"},{"start":5835.968,"end":5852.962,"text":"委員這樣子的一個這個方向當然是很好不過也要跟委員報告一下因為每一個道路的一個環境大小還有它的層級都不一所以在門法裡面可能不適合放進去但是在細則的部分我們會來另做相關的一個處理"},{"start":5855.156,"end":5869.151,"text":"所以就是根據那個行政院版本行人交通安全設施條例也沒有硬性規定要設置人行道會放在細則裡面這樣的重點在哪裡"},{"start":5877.512,"end":5900.487,"text":"會放在細則裡面來規範母法底下會有細則所以是會在我們這個法通過之後我們會再定這個施行細則那會在施行細則裡面來做處理所以目前是沒有嗎母法通過之後我們就會在施行細則裡面來定這個部分"},{"start":5903.427,"end":5922.178,"text":"但我認為全面落實人行道的測試應該是入法化。對於8公尺以上的馬路應該確保他們實體人行道的設計。所以8公尺以下的路也應該要設置"},{"start":5923.719,"end":5926.001,"text":"這個在我們的設施標準裡面已經有了。"},{"start":5945.73,"end":5952.568,"text":"所以如果是這樣子再請部長再看下面這幾張照片剛才我們的其他的委員都說到"},{"start":5953.846,"end":5959.007,"text":"所以有很多委員也寫著反映說誰願意把這樣子的那個就是變電箱啊電線桿啊放在自己的家嘛所以在這樣子的說還要在地方溝通溝通到什麼時候還不知道所以說直接要在人行道上變成就是行人反而要繞道而過所以這樣子會不會造成很多人的危險"},{"start":5984.502,"end":6012.684,"text":"委員會可以報告比如說像這張圖這張照片的話它應該是這個這個設施的部分它顯在這個地方那因為這個地方這個畫的這個是標線型的人行道它有幾種處理方式因為它要嘛就把這個設施移走不然就是它把標誌型的人行道畫寬一點不然這種畫法是不連續的那人也沒辦法這樣子走"},{"start":6013.064,"end":6038.589,"text":"是,但是是你們畫的。不是朝陽畫的,這個不曉得是哪個地方政府的。對,但是也是我們交通部這邊也是要那個,對不對。這個不曉得是哪一個市政府,是台北還是哪一個。民權東路6段的話,這個台北市政府畫的。是,所以這個也是要覺得這樣子是合理嘛,你是要改變嘛,是不是。"},{"start":6041.205,"end":6063.441,"text":"誰說要劃寬,但是呢還是一樣對這樣子的人行道這樣子也很危險啊你劃寬也是到馬路上嘛他這個是標誌型的人行道,要嘛因為他旁邊有劃紅線嘛他要不然他就是把這個標線型的人行道他把它換寬嘛劃寬的時候就沒有這個問題"},{"start":6064.899,"end":6089.667,"text":"所以你是說劃寬就是讓人行就是要跑到馬路旁邊再過來?不是,劃寬之後它就不是馬路了,它就是人行道的標示,把它劃寬。是,但是半度又是有這樣子的擋住在這邊的話,對人行道也是,人在走路也是不安全。所以我剛剛說嘛,因為是先有那個設施,這個標線型人行道是後來才劃的。"},{"start":6090.307,"end":6116.624,"text":"所以它也是政府如果要處理這個事情要嘛它就把設施搬走要嘛它就把人行道標線型人行道把它劃寬就不會造成說到了這個地方斷掉的這個情形是所以這個是交通部要去規劃的路線不是說因為他們的話這樣不應該這樣子但是已經有了這是地方政府的權責啦這是地方政府的權責要改善對"},{"start":6118.431,"end":6137.918,"text":"所以這個我們的交通部這邊是要去監督才能去改善不能說我們在這邊說就會改善沒有其實我跟你報告這個政府分層負責地方政府有地方政府的權責那像這個的話這個照片一出來我相信地方議會的議員一定質詢會問這個市政府"},{"start":6142.159,"end":6148.922,"text":"所以市政府一定當然他必須要去改善不是什麼事情都中央交通部要我們認為啦人行道上的障礙物應該要清除所以就是像這樣子的電箱啊電線桿啊這種都是不能佔用人行道也是說人行道就不應該有其他的使用我們必須要保障人行道的寬度最少要有"},{"start":6171.133,"end":6171.153,"text":"委員會復議"},{"start":6181.072,"end":6184.574,"text":"需要這些規定所以今天不管是開什麼車的人或者就是只要我們下車就是行人所以呢我們都希望創造一個行人友善的環境不僅是出於就是安全的考量也是為了提升我們生活品質我希望相關的單位可以積極的面對也並主動而且積極來改善我們目前的情況"},{"start":6211.441,"end":6215.342,"text":"部長,你同意嗎?是,這個當然我同意。好,謝謝部長。謝謝。好,謝謝我們麥義貞委員的執行。下一位我們請習宇貞委員執行。主席,請林部長。好,請部長。"},{"start":6243.056,"end":6268.007,"text":"委員長早我想請教一下部長是在2022年12月的時候CNN Travel有專題將台灣稱作行人地域然後報導中也指出澳洲、加拿大、日本、美國等國在官方旅遊的網站也都建議要提及台灣的道路狀況那美國國務院也是直指許多司機都不尊重行人路權所以CNN的CNN報導"},{"start":6269.167,"end":6291.877,"text":"也指到臺灣若不改善道安的問題將無法吸引及留住國際旅客本席也支持要洗刷行人地域的污名請問部長目前保障行人交通安全洗刷行人地域的主管機關目前就是由內政部負責是嗎我想是這一個法是這一個行人交通安全設施條例現在由內政部來主管"},{"start":6298.24,"end":6321.497,"text":"公懲公懲的這一個部分公懲的部分是由內政部就是剛剛在講今天行人交通安全設施條例我想請教一下我們現行的法有一個市區道路條例已經對道路設施有所規範那市區道路行人的安全的保障這個條例就是內政部主責嘛對不對"},{"start":6322.397,"end":6329.423,"text":"市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例市區道路條例"},{"start":6351.641,"end":6355.372,"text":"要該辦的這個事項還有另外更重要就是有相關的一個法則"},{"start":6356.879,"end":6384.659,"text":"請問一下部長你知道嗎市區道路條例的第4條也是規定市區道路的主管機關剛剛講的就是在內政部嘛那第9條您可以看一下就是市區道路兩旁的建築物跟騎樓幾乎遮掩人行道地平面應照市區道路及附屬工程設計保準及配合道路高層的建造不得與鄰近地面高低不平的這個全文第9條您可以看一下其實"},{"start":6385.66,"end":6411.486,"text":"跟我們在民國92年12月23號所制定的這個條文是幾乎是一模一樣跟你們現在的行人交通安全設施條例的第九條規定幾乎是一樣然後也同樣有罰則在第33至1條規定會專期自行改善完成者處新台幣五千元以上兩萬五千元以下的罰還並得按月連續處罰直到改善為止那請問部長"},{"start":6412.546,"end":6413.087,"text":"市區道路的這個"},{"start":6432.044,"end":6450.128,"text":"條例處理的是在市區在都市計劃範圍裏面但是我們還有其他的一個道路必須要做規範所以這次我們為什麼要訂這個條例是要把市區道路外的其他的道路也幫他納入規範就是都市計劃區外的道路一起納入規範對是沒錯那請問一下部長您之前擔任金融市長8年的時間有遇到這樣的問題的話你們當時是怎麼解決"},{"start":6457.529,"end":6457.769,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":6473.755,"end":6496.524,"text":"所以您現在的意思就是現在主責的單位都會拉回來內政部這邊來處理是嗎不管都市計劃區跟都市計劃區外的我們是在這個條例裡面因為每一個法都有主責的機關所以當然是內政部我們是這個法的主責機關當然還有包括交通部其他的這個道路的最主要是交通部啦那他也會這個適用就是說這個納到這個條例的一個規範裡面"},{"start":6500.778,"end":6509.869,"text":"因為原來的法律是授權地方政府解決那地方執行上有困難遇到民眾的反彈的時候我們要怎麼來處理?反彈指的是你說這個歧陋整平的部分"},{"start":6518.094,"end":6535.668,"text":"其實整評跟我們這次要處理的有點不太一樣但是其中整評很重要的是這個要溝通啦因為最重要的是沒有溝通那他需要滿比較長的一個時間工程的一個手段反而相對是簡單的"},{"start":6537.309,"end":6564.049,"text":"再請教一下部長,就是因為剛剛講到騎樓跟人行道接壤的問題其實有很多很複雜的所以包括你看互與互的高低差動與動具的高低差騎樓跟人行道的高低差這些還有涉及到比如機車亂放然後商家的路把不易行走這些問題那在施工方面還有比如說高低差要鋪平還要考慮排水鋪堵、雨水倒灌水電瓦斯管路跟地下室平板問題"},{"start":6565.29,"end":6590.126,"text":"車輛通行載重的問題所以現在我們依照新的條文第9條我們可以看到現在內政部把這麼多歷史遺留的問題要丟給建築物所有權人使用人或管理人在兩個月改善剛剛部長有提到這個應該要好好的溝通但現在要求他們在兩個月內改善這樣有辦法好好溝通嗎?"},{"start":6591.963,"end":6612.97,"text":"委員我跟您報告一下可能委員有點誤會這個是在整評之後就是我們統一重修完成之後那如果他再去做其他的一個這個破壞或是說擅自改建的話那這個就要要求他兩個月那請問整評重修這個階段你們給多少時間讓他們去做"},{"start":6613.65,"end":6629.362,"text":"整憑重修剛剛在跟委員報告,他需要蠻長的一個溝通的時間。我們並沒有去硬性要求地方政府什麼時候把… 所以說這有可能也會再拖很久的時間喔,是這樣的意思嗎?"},{"start":6629.362,"end":6635.126,"text":"是,我的經驗是這樣,報告委員。在前,剛剛在講工程的手段其實是最後面,是最簡單的。"},{"start":6636.027,"end":6658.764,"text":"但是在前置的一個溝通可能需要蠻長的一個時間這個部分本身希望說當然一定要溝通可是我覺得也要訂定一個時間否則的話也許過了20年還在溝通都還沒有處理因為尤其這個道路交通剛講的道路交通條例這個在92年制定到現在也21年了很多的問題還是沒有解決委員我跟你報告補充一個"},{"start":6659.665,"end":6659.885,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":6687.47,"end":6699.57,"text":"有權考核地方的績效,然後如果考評的績效不佳,中央主管可以檢列相關道路交通計畫的補助額度。請問是要檢列哪一個交通計畫的補助額度?"},{"start":6704.332,"end":6722.326,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們部跟交通部有很多地方的道路補助款那我們是希望你地方提出來既然你願意提出來就把它做好而不是提出來以後又受死不了做不好我們可能就要考慮檢列其他的其他項目不是會檢列其他的"},{"start":6727.628,"end":6742.842,"text":"本質是認為啦就是說事實上他做不好一定有他的原因就像部長今天擔任金融市長絕對沒有縣市政府會故意怠惰或是績效不彰他一定是有他的原因那他本來就做不好了你又減劣他的補助他就更做不好啦"},{"start":6743.502,"end":6756.216,"text":"所以是看他的積極度也就是你從提案的時候就要開始很慎重我們是希望是說要去探討他最不好的原因而不是都用這種方式去檢列他的不足所以以我們這個條文也有特別提到就是說我們要檢列"},{"start":6759.54,"end":6760.28,"text":"兼顧行人交通安全設施條例草案案。"},{"start":6778.648,"end":6797.44,"text":"最後一個問題是我們常常看到車子停在路口的紅綠燈的時候有人賣玉蘭花有人發廣告的傳單在車陣中穿梭非常的危險這個問題是不是也要加入這個納入規範加強取締而且這個可能是跟應該是跟警政署有關"},{"start":6798.447,"end":6823.801,"text":"我跟委員報告,像這樣的一個違規的行為在道路交通管理處罰條例已經有明文處罰的規定所以是由交通部這邊來,那誰來取締?當然就是由警察來取締那這樣是不是也造成警力非常大的負擔呢?警力有辦法負擔嗎?我想警察他會規劃他的勤務啊,遇到這種那部長請教一下,這個可能也加重很多警政署的這個典禮的負擔,那請問這個部分要怎麼來解決?所以就是請大家多多支持警察"},{"start":6827.816,"end":6828.116,"text":"謝謝徐委員的知性"},{"start":6850.964,"end":6857.686,"text":"主席,我們請王美惠委員執行。 王美惠委員執行完,我們就休息五分鐘。好,謝謝。主席,我們今天... 喔!"},{"start":6857.686,"end":6858.026,"text":"抱歉!"},{"start":6858.026,"end":6858.306,"text":"阿偉,請你開,你就開啦!"},{"start":6877.984,"end":6881.146,"text":"來來來,我們直接來討論。在這裏面,你也知道我來自哪裡嘛,嘉義市嘛。因為我們幾位來賓有說永續去經營做一個人行道的專用區嘛,在這裏面的經費。"},{"start":6901.574,"end":6912.661,"text":"當然是總統都聽起來﹖若轉台灣來本﹖沒說很多事罷了﹖但對自己來說﹖這需要關愛的眼神﹖在這裏本是要把我們保證"},{"start":6918.769,"end":6923.891,"text":"探討：我們的署長探討：在這個規定當中：我們的人行道一走的時候：有剛才我們的董事說的：有人行道大小條：大小條的當中：你們規定就說：我們就差不多做到1.5：就可以：這個範圍："},{"start":6944.69,"end":6948.296,"text":"在本席第2次會議時﹐對中央的部署、委員會、議長﹐"},{"start":6953.37,"end":6963.333,"text":"然而在這個規定當初的時候是很流氓的,又覺得說背誦會不方便因為當時台北人都騎摩托車很多,在你的人生到來幾番流氓再來,有的沒習慣,你背誦摩托車跟他去車,在那小人就落在那裡騎"},{"start":6981.813,"end":6984.558,"text":"我們的民意不要被打折了,不要被打折了。"},{"start":6988.1,"end":6993.825,"text":"因為若發生一定程的事：就說黃委員這您中央說的,要做這樣：感覺中央是補助給對應的黨、聯席黨做好：不是要去這裡跟去這裡的人,就不要站起來了。在這兩天,稍後你應該聽到本席講待一條假日期的道路吧,來你解說一下。"},{"start":7015.288,"end":7018.072,"text":"國務委員報告啦,確實啦,都過去我們這個道路沒進行道的時候,我們有轉設這個機車的轉用道啦。"},{"start":7025.885,"end":7026.446,"text":"委員黃捷"},{"start":7046.047,"end":7046.467,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":7071.11,"end":7071.27,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":7088.075,"end":7088.856,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":7110.465,"end":7111.547,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":7121.089,"end":7123.231,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查 »:"},{"start":7141.414,"end":7142.635,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人"},{"start":7169.278,"end":7174.579,"text":"斑馬線,我們也要尊重它走,我們這就是尊重,嚴重最重要的,是你尊重我,我尊重你。現在最近,走斑馬線的人,慢慢走,手機在那邊看,在那邊看,所以說,我們這附近每一個單位都款款相扣,你也要智慧,"},{"start":7198.121,"end":7198.221,"text":"委員黃捷"},{"start":7223.88,"end":7228.021,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案：立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7248.447,"end":7248.788,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":7265.231,"end":7265.551,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":7292.243,"end":7297.468,"text":"委員應該聽到嘛,因為你來行的,做道路的,你來行的啦我跟委員報告啦,我們過去這幾天做的這個危險路口啦,我自己有統計過啦就是說其實這個造勢率是都減少了40幾%,哪有做過的"},{"start":7309.824,"end":7317.91,"text":"但是我怎麼搞的?我現在說我還沒做到,還差這麼多、這麼嚴重啊。所以我說第一就是,我們會再跟市政府要求,你把這個相關應該要把這個造勢率高的,有A1死亡車禍的,優先列入來改善。啊現在我要跟你說,不然如果當地不管是官司,他們不可以提出來的時候,譬如說,我自己就正好把它"},{"start":7337.606,"end":7340.347,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人"},{"start":7365.08,"end":7366.401,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具《行人交通安全設施條例草案》案。"},{"start":7383.152,"end":7383.452,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":7400.505,"end":7418.513,"text":"委員要單單20票來報告齁,這個事情就可能不是從教育部下去啦,因為後來我上任之後我就因為這個事情我給每一位縣市長寫一封信,直接讓市長知道說你有這些地方你必須要做改善,然後你沒有改善,沒有提案。來,我聽你說20票換我10票。"},{"start":7420.774,"end":7421.334,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":7440.056,"end":7443.017,"text":"委員黃,這個是要由市政府提案。 我知道啦!提案的時候就是我們學校說有我們這裡的資料,你們要提出建議嘛!"},{"start":7443.017,"end":7445.478,"text":"我知道啦!因為本身就是正當發生這個問題的時候,他們的學校提出他們在他們的教育處的啦!"},{"start":7462.625,"end":7463.105,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":7903.134,"end":7905.957,"text":"現在我們繼續開會。現在我們請我們的黃建豪委員的執行。好,謝謝我們主席。那我們現在請內政部部長。好,請部長。"},{"start":7930.529,"end":7953.501,"text":"市委員好部長好首先還是要肯定內政部提出行人交通安全設施條例我想這件事情的確對於整個台灣社會發展有正面的幫助尤其最近這幾年大家都關注到所謂行人地域的問題所以在這問題上面我想第一件事也要先來救教一下我們內政部"},{"start":7956.375,"end":7979.773,"text":"過去我想因為部長應該也清楚喔因為民眾非常關心行人低利問題也關心我們道路交通的亂象那當然今天我們主要來討論的是這個人行行人安全的部分部長你知不知道說這個到底我國的道路主管機關為什麼要問這個我先問這一條就為什麼我們道路主管機關到底有多少單位市區的部分是內政部對不起"},{"start":7980.852,"end":7998.345,"text":"市區的部分是內政部那市區外的這個非都市的其他的地方原則上是交通部市委部長所以你也很清楚就是說除了內政部以外可能交通部也有公路總局也有農業部也有地方政府鄉鎮道路等於說其實我們那時候在提的時候是希望說"},{"start":7999.486,"end":8025.085,"text":"大家對道路對於這個交通安全很在意的事情是因為我們的道路沒有一個全國一致的主管機關當然那是不是很重要的一個當然沒錯但是到各地方去它可能不是一個唯一的這個機關這是這個法律的一個困境那這件事情到底在部內或在院紀裡面有沒有要協調說未來會不會有所謂的統一的道路主管機關還是因為會像現在這樣"},{"start":8025.845,"end":8026.706,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員"},{"start":8043.986,"end":8061.497,"text":"因為道路有不同使用的目的,也有不同的層級,所以當然管理的機關不同。不過在相關的設計的規範裡面,也是依不同的需要跟層級。在人型的部分,基本上我們是會來做整合。"},{"start":8062.397,"end":8084.932,"text":"所以人行道的部分、行人安全的部分不管今天是一般的市區道路還是像這種鄉道或省道有點像比如剛剛提到的市區內當然市區內有一些是市區所謂市區一般的道路那在很多都會區裡面它有很多的省道它的省道它也是這個重要的幹道那通常兩旁應該理論上也要有行人安全的這個措施"},{"start":8086.513,"end":8087.194,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":8101.052,"end":8101.252,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":8118.177,"end":8138.375,"text":"那在過去剛委員特別提到的比如說在市區運輸道路比如說它是省道的部分那就是由我們公路總局跟地方政府直轄市或者是縣市政府來做協商來這個決定這個由誰來做一個管理不過在行政的管轄上省道當然就是這個由中央來做主管"},{"start":8138.955,"end":8159.72,"text":"好部長謝謝因為我們希望說在這個法令因為在這個相關的行人交通安全設施條例草案裡面比較相關的可能是第5條但是第5條其實還是沒有明確的來規範到底像人行到的部分因為剛剛部長你也提到了到地方去之後還是要跟地方政府來配合那我們還是期待說能夠在做人行安全的部分是能夠有一個主管機關去要求"},{"start":8161.261,"end":8188.763,"text":"這是一個比較理想的狀態我們希望修法上面還是能往這方向來走那另外提到的這個今天討論的是人行道那這個行人安全設施條例草案的這個第二條在定義裡面包含說人行道、行人穿越道這個部分我想請教一下這個部長在目前的道交條例裡面道交條例裡面因為我想剛剛提到因為台灣的道路非常多種法律相關的在管理在道交條例裡面"},{"start":8190.236,"end":8193.118,"text":"人行道跟行人穿越道是不是也屬於道路?"},{"start":8199.878,"end":8226.926,"text":"對嘛,也是道路嘛所以就是為什麼剛剛一開始要先問我們道路有沒有一個主管機關統一來管理因為你今天提到了比如說今天我們這個行人交通安全設施這個草案裡面我們最主要的定義裡面提到了希望對人行道對行人穿越道能夠有個明確的這個相關後續的這些法律都是在規範這件事情但是有另外一部法律叫道交條例道路裡面這個人行道跟行人穿越道也屬於道交條例管轄的範圍沒錯"},{"start":8228.246,"end":8243.407,"text":"道路道交條例能夠管道交條例的這些人各單位有很多單位所以其實還要問說道理未來像這個人行道跟行人超限道他未來會獨立出來一個這個法律呢還是一樣會跟道交條例互相的打結"},{"start":8244.585,"end":8272.942,"text":"我跟委員報告啦因為我們這一個條例最主要為什麼是叫做設施條例就是它是針對建設的這一個項目建設跟改善的部分那道教條例它是一個總管理的模法所以它的重點其實不是只有比較側重在我們做完以後它還是在管理的部分還是要回歸所以我們兩邊的用語還有一個基本上定義是要一致的啦所以跟委員報告大概概念上我們這一次會特別著重在建設跟改善是"},{"start":8274.608,"end":8298.843,"text":"這個不好意思我覺得大家會有點失望如果你只著重在建設當然我覺得現在問題不在建設就是說如果大家把人行道我先肯定內政部、營建署這邊要願意花400億到各地去徵詢來鋪設人行道但是問題是我們今天遇到的不是除了沒有人行道之外即便你有人行道這問題就是比如說停車的問題比如說我等一下提到馬上提到的像騎樓債用的問題我們看一下一張圖"},{"start":8302.352,"end":8315.659,"text":"提到地方上很明顯的其實這個最麻煩的問題像這個人行道跟這個騎樓在用的問題騎樓在現行的法律裡面也屬於這個道路但是我想台灣各地除了台北市之外的很多地方都有這個騎樓在用違憲的問題"},{"start":8318.2,"end":8320.421,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":8345.126,"end":8370.846,"text":"跟委員報告這就是為什麼我們這其實在在我們署裡面長年都在推動騎樓整平計畫這其實在地方也配合我們做了10多年他就是希望地方政府逐一逐一去改善因為這樣的過程的確要溝通因為騎樓在建築在建築上他是定義在私人空間但是但是他是必須是開放通行但是在交通的這個的觀念裡面他本來就應該要通行"},{"start":8371.406,"end":8395.534,"text":"所以這兩個法規之間都需要去在地方實務上要去溝通所以這十多年來地方政府其實也做出不少的成績但是我們這一次也是在這個設施條例明確把它定義但是看委員看到我們是希望地方政府好不容易重修完以後協調好以後不要民眾不要再重道覆轍我們是這樣講的其實我們期待大家執法要有這個要務實一點就是說"},{"start":8400.416,"end":8400.656,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":8419.193,"end":8446.203,"text":"內政部在推動相關的法律的時候是不是能夠提供所謂的這樣的這個沙盒的機制在某些地方先辦示範區讓大家能夠先去了解這個文化去了解這個法律因為我想這個行人地域這個文化是累積已久我們參考其他國家不管是日本也好或其他歐洲國家也好早期甚至韓國也好很多亞洲國家早期也是行人地域但他們花了幾十年時間走到今天這個地方來所以我建議說今天"},{"start":8447.443,"end":8461.7,"text":"我還是肯定我們這個內政部跟交通部這個用心來提出相關的法案跟這個經費但是在執法上面在人民的使用習慣上面我覺得是不是應該先推一些示範去讓大家知道說這樣做是好的而不是"},{"start":8463.021,"end":8490.108,"text":"責任又交給地方政府地方政府在推動的時候馬上面對地方壓力很多事情就不了了之這是我覺得這個法律比較可惜的地方 副長委員我跟您報告其實這個需要地方政府更積極一點我想這一點應該是毋庸置疑第二個委員上面的這張照片你可以看到左邊是有一個非常漂亮的一個人行道但是在其他部分這等於是他把他遮蔽阻隔了"},{"start":8490.228,"end":8507.018,"text":"所以他這個也是違反其他相關的一個法令的規定如果要其實整個整平讓他順行的話其實也不只是交通或者是健管單位這的確需要包括公務其他警察單位大家一起配合其實有整平順行的這個目標才有辦法達成"},{"start":8507.518,"end":8527.564,"text":"最後一句話啦就是像那種騎車問題我們還是期待說就是以騎車為例我們還是期待說這個行人交通安全設施條例在執行的時候能夠有一個全國一致的主管機關去規範這些道路這些人行道的問題才不會到地方去之後就像部長剛剛提到的又涉及到很多單位那我覺得這件事情就會永遠的無解謝謝"},{"start":8531.223,"end":8551.62,"text":"好,謝謝我們黃建豪委員的知情。那下一位我們請林晉憲委員知情。好,謝主席。本席要請我們內政部林部長。好,請部長。好,我們國土管理署吳信修署長。好,國土管理署吳署長。謝謝。"},{"start":8553.727,"end":8574.835,"text":"委員黃 部長好 部長我們現在總算我們內政部提出了道路交通安全基本法我們當然肯定這樣的一個立法的進步方向我們從106年2017年到2021年內政部投資了212億提出了道路交通品質計畫"},{"start":8576.516,"end":8597.233,"text":"然後2022年現在正在執行到2025年交通部我統計一下和內政部一共投入將近300億的改善交通品質也就是說從2017年到現在國家投入中央光是用交通品質就投入了500億"},{"start":8599.319,"end":8626.413,"text":"請問部長你覺得整體人行道的改善狀況你滿意嗎?我想當然是不滿意不過各地方政府在這幾年也的確做相關的一個這個努力我再統計一下六都給部長看一下我們政府有統計人行道的普及率我發現還是出現嚴重的那個南北南北的差距甚至所謂城鄉差距"},{"start":8627.523,"end":8655.484,"text":"很不好意思,臺南市是最低的啦但是你看,就算最高的臺北市啊也不到七成啦只有百分之六十七啦新北六十二你看,然後呢桃園開始啊就不到五成啦桃園只有四十七啦台中四十八臺南最低三十五啦高雄市可能是個老直轄市啦但還有五十五趴啦"},{"start":8656.63,"end":8676.617,"text":"好,也就是說未來對於人行道的普及率政府還要再加油啦我希望中央地方確實都要聯手啦尤其你現在這個母法訂出來其實應該要有能夠去考評地方政府對於人行道普及率啦這一點我希望內政部"},{"start":8682.412,"end":8701.388,"text":"外來交通部在這方面應該要再加強同時我再請教部長你知道人行道其實最嚴重的是施工的問題人行道也會有大樓在施工那麼你在施工的時候你就必須要設立臨時的人行道我給部長看這幾個照片"},{"start":8702.998,"end":8722.896,"text":"你看照片有一張是在公車走過來有沒有,旁邊坐一個人要等到坐公車啦,他根本沒有人行道可以讓他站立啦,他就站,直接站在快車道上面。再來喔,你看那個人,再來那個你手上看到一個大樓在施工喔,應該算是左下角啦。"},{"start":8724.161,"end":8744.959,"text":"有一個大樓施工啦,他擺了很多三角錐啦,那個其實就是一個臨時的人行道啦。我跟你講你知道,我每天坐高鐵到台北站,我都是走路到立法院來,那邊有一棟大樓在施工啦,他隨便給你做一個臨時的人行道,我走的都是道路高低不平啦,那身體也很危險啦。"},{"start":8746.212,"end":8770.397,"text":"你知道嗎,我們每天都是從高鐵站走到這裡,旁邊就有個大樓在做了。接下來右下角,右下角也是啦,右下角這個發燈車,這個上了新聞,騎樓在施工,所以他沒有人行道可以走,所以他走到外面來,被車子撞到。那我們現在應該要規範啦,當人行道在施工的時候你怎麼辦?"},{"start":8771.781,"end":8794.867,"text":"這個叫做道路維持計畫,是不是?但是你現在內政部提出你這個法案,道路交通安全計畫,你現在內政部剛剛提出來這個法案,裡面完全沒有寫到那個交通維持計畫。也就是說你沒有一個上位法規範交通維持計畫。所以交通維持計畫在哪裡?各地方政府自己亂定的。"},{"start":8795.919,"end":8801.461,"text":"新北市大陸交通維持計劃送給道安匯報備查高雄市不定期召開道安匯報由施工單位負責"},{"start":8820.403,"end":8820.883,"text":"道路維持計劃"},{"start":8842.298,"end":8870.898,"text":"那部長或者是署長你有看法嗎?是,我先回應一下委員我覺得剛剛提到的那個問題的確是有必要就是說你在施工的時候他沒有實際去把交委的計畫把它落實那因為現在的交委的計畫它的那個層級比較低所以我想我們可以在法的這個位階上面來做一些加強分析有提修法,我有提修正案"},{"start":8872.358,"end":8874.6,"text":"本期提的是第二條第一項"},{"start":8898.834,"end":8916.722,"text":"我認為要新增一個所謂常態性或臨時性也就是說臨時性的措施就是這種道路交通維持計畫應該要納入行人交通安全設施的定義因為你現在的行人交通安全設施的定義沒有包含這種道路臨時性的維持計畫就是你把他剔除掉在你所管轄的範圍內"},{"start":8925.043,"end":8925.223,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":8951.263,"end":8972.816,"text":"甚至你要幫他納為考評項目啦部長你有什麼看法我想這個我們了解我請吳司長說明一下我跟委員報告因為這一個法本身是一個作用法就是說你前面有名詞定義的話後面應該要有它相對應的條文但是因為這一個交違設施它本身是一個非常細節而且要因地制宜定出很彈性的做法的"},{"start":8973.436,"end":8997.251,"text":"所以...我...我說明一下齁就說因為他後面沒有對...就在母法裡面他是後面是沒有對應的措施或者對應的措施應該...我...我說明一下所以...所以我才會跟委員報告說是不是下午我們討論一下看是在母法跟細則裡面通通都去定義還是母法只要有定義一個項目...所以你們趕快去做這方面的...的討論要把它擬補過來第二個啦"},{"start":9001.494,"end":9012.777,"text":"在你所謂定義上要設立行人安全友善設施就是你規範要設立有人行道的部分我認為你少納入商圈你看這是台中一中街商圈根本沒有地方可以走啦台南國外街商圈那個嫁入都是人山人海啦"},{"start":9029.332,"end":9056.938,"text":"人走在哪裡?走到快車道上面啊。台中的商圈,很多商圈都一樣啦。然後我右邊給你看一個是日本的商圈。日本定立為商圈,它一定設立行人可以走了。這必然的嘛。你消費者才可以來啊。顧客才可以在那邊散步啊。但你現在啊規範啊必須要設立所謂的行人友善區啊。你只規範什麼?"},{"start":9058.615,"end":9080.284,"text":"你只規範了醫療院所、學校、機關、大眾捷運場等行人密集場所,我認為你應該要把商圈納進來啦。只要你要讓地方政府在規範商圈的時候啊,他不得不他一定要啦,要把行人友善設施納進商圈的必要的那個副主設施裡面。你無法要規範啦。我也有提修正版本在這個地方啦。"},{"start":9085.974,"end":9112.154,"text":"來,署長您的意見的確啊,就是因為我們在這條文裡面大概後面都會留一個留一個就是說讓地方政府去公告啦那所以地方政府在這次屬於列舉公告所以地方政府如果覺得有需要其實都可以當然我知道委員也特別注意就是說商圈其實現在知名的觀光商圈其實人都比車多啊你考量給地方政府的結果就是你看到的啊商圈都沒有設立啊"},{"start":9112.734,"end":9124.014,"text":"了解所以你母法不規範有地方政府他就是陪你行事嘛是所以說他們當然也考慮實話你現在再不規範他也是不會改變啦了解你應該把商圈納進來啦"},{"start":9125.339,"end":9149.377,"text":"因為政府 經濟部也有在大推要提振商圈的這個計畫 是是 對不對 中央補助地方政府做商圈 阿你做商圈竟然沒有規範他必須要做新人友善區 不能讓新人走路 那你做什麼商圈阿 我覺得台灣的法定規範實在很落伍了 好不好 好你們這跨部的這個 我認為你這個部你要先負起責任 那政府應該先把商圈訂進來啦 好不好 好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 好 謝謝主席"},{"start":9152.189,"end":9155.51,"text":"首先謝謝部長,我想這些年來包括本席對於台中市很多"},{"start":9180.121,"end":9207.775,"text":"行人、人行道的改善或者增設或者修善內政部都給予支持吳署長也多次跟我一起會刊所以我在這裡先表示感謝今天有機會站在資訊台上來繼續深入就教這個問題我想也是一個難得的機會我想署長會比較清楚部長因為過去當任基隆市長我想你也很清楚"},{"start":9208.775,"end":9232.81,"text":"本席過去一直在主張基本上要台灣作為行人地域這件事情是對台灣最大的羞辱也是台灣在國際上甚至作為一個台灣人其實我們過去馬路真的就是馬路啦因為現在沒有馬嘛所以馬路其實叫車路啦它不是人在走的我們過去的思維從頭到尾都是這個樣子"},{"start":9235.389,"end":9247.963,"text":"蔡總統上任這些年來我們不斷的爭取提議那我想這個中央行政單位也都積極開始動作所以今天這個是給這個設施的預算有一個法令"},{"start":9249.407,"end":9272.498,"text":"但是同時我們其實要改善的光設施其實不夠所以我們也同時在進行很多修法剛剛林俊賢委員的其實也是其中的一項也就是說如果不管中央政府、地方政府首長如果沒有以行人為出發也就是一個城市的建設不以人本做出發你就會出現你沒有規範到的"},{"start":9274.346,"end":9290.775,"text":"例如說周邊要蓋房子周邊的人行道修繕馬路在修繕我們從沒有把行人的權利放到裡面去大家只就目前大家想到例如說要被圍起來不要讓這個工地有危險發生"},{"start":9291.795,"end":9316.813,"text":"但是從來沒有思考說你委起來後人要走去哪裡所以其實在我來看法這個其實不只是內政部跟交通部而已這個其實所有的各部會包括你任何的政府要做任何的設施你首先應該考慮人怎麼來人怎麼離開這個就是以人為本的思考我想部長當任地方首長應該特別有感受"},{"start":9317.714,"end":9343.924,"text":"那本席過去也舉了很多例子本來我今天還拍了一個影片齁我以前就拍了齁就是當一個爸爸媽媽因為我也生三個孩子我有空的時候也要照顧小孩那一個媽媽如果或者一個爸爸如果推著一個嬰兒推車他在台灣走路啊他會面臨到要過五關斬六將他才能夠達到目的"},{"start":9345.362,"end":9358.109,"text":"隨便以台中市做舉例啊第一個你可能會遇到行道樹所以署長你跟我會開的時候我已經多次在講過很多遍了就是行道樹不要種在中間啊"},{"start":9359.38,"end":9360.06,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":9387.074,"end":9398.727,"text":"我閃過了行道樹接下來我會遇到那個電箱電燙啊他也會設在這個人行道上面我閃過了電箱我還會遇到什麼路燈"},{"start":9400.202,"end":9400.462,"text":"議員黃捷等16"},{"start":9421.837,"end":9433.823,"text":"所以第一個我們也都知道這些東西都要改善但改善我們以實務的經驗來講他本席認為都應該要有順序啦騎樓是最困難的"},{"start":9435.319,"end":9459.31,"text":"就像我們在過去處理道案的時候騎樓可不可以停車這個是最困難的所以當過地方首長的人都知道這個會跟民眾權益他的生活習慣產生很大的衝突所以一定要有順序的就第一個本席提醒處理人行道的問題一定要有順序的來處理由最簡單的進到最難的"},{"start":9461.192,"end":9488.973,"text":"由最容易做的比如說包括新興地區我們的相關的都市計畫也應該去規範相關的新興的要蓋房子的地方你怎麼事先透過地方政府的這個這個建造始造的發放去事先在審查的時候就已經要預留出很舒適的行人空間樹要怎麼種這個一定要在最這個最容易嘛因為你現在在發照"},{"start":9492.774,"end":9506.199,"text":"內政部應緊述規範,甚至要求每一個地方政府在審查新建建案的時候,他應該就有一個一開始就跟你講這個房子要怎麼蓋的,你要預留出多大的人行道的空間"},{"start":9507.683,"end":9522.876,"text":"第2個就是剛剛我們條例裡面提到的包括醫院、學校因為這是公共設施所以公共設施的周邊政府跟民眾的權益衝突性小這個就是我們這個法案很重要的重點"},{"start":9524.215,"end":9552.229,"text":"所以我們編列的預算一定要從這裡來做那逐漸的當大家社會開始習慣走人行道的時候那些最困難的問題才有機會去挑戰跟解決啦這就是順序第二個本席認為預算編了我們用透過條例然後編了這個預算包括現在已經大概光目前在執行的我看了一下大概就四五百億的預算那這個預算有沒有加入競爭"},{"start":9553.649,"end":9583.05,"text":"也就是說我們因為這個錢都用來補助地方政府我們有沒有加入地方政府的競爭請部長回答一下非常謝謝委員其實你剛剛的一番話其實也正是我想講的非常的正確地方政府有沒有競爭的機制其實是有的不過也同樣是優先的順序我們現在最主要要處理就是交通部列管的依照式的路口這個清單的部分"},{"start":9583.59,"end":9602.803,"text":"另外就是地方政府現在提出來的今年年底可以把它視作完成的這一部分另外就是有一些民眾可能會透過參與的過程提出來另外就是透過競爭的一個機制地方政府提我們來做相關的一個審查每一個案子的補助地方政府都要有自籌款對不對"},{"start":9604.804,"end":9609.106,"text":"除了那個危險入口我記得那個危險入口我們有整理一張那個交通部有整理一個全國行人事故熱點的清單那各縣市的這個狀況這邊清清楚楚那本席建議那個競爭就是說"},{"start":9630.727,"end":9648.7,"text":"現事首長都要負起責任也就是說現事首長越想改善人行道的中央就更應該大力支持這個就是本席的競爭了就有一些新首長他就不在乎嘛他就覺得人行道就是這樣子嘛所以他也不願意投入自己的預算"},{"start":9649.994,"end":9679.334,"text":"我覺得這個應該考量在內政部設計補助要點的時候應該把這個考量進去地方政府展現更大的決心想要改善他的城市的人行道那我們相對給予的資源就應該多這個就是我認為除了我們中央要統籌解決比如說這個危險路口啦等等其他的之外我們覺得對地方政府這些地方首長我們也應該給予這個競爭的機制在裡面投入越多我們補助越多這個可不可以來設計"},{"start":9680.675,"end":9701.49,"text":"我想這個當然是我們的一個共識那第二個其實這一次四年四百億我們內政部240然後中央部160這個跟過去我們在處理這個人行通道的這些經費其實是增加很多所以經費基本上不是問題只要地方積極提案我想都可以全力來支持"},{"start":9702.471,"end":9720.002,"text":"我覺得這一次是當然編列比以前多太多表示中央政府很重視但是我的意思要告訴部長說不要說500億啦我編5000億全台灣要做到人行道有感還是很少啦因為這個要走路的地方太多了嘛"},{"start":9720.322,"end":9744.32,"text":"委員我跟您報告你剛剛提到一個非常重要的優先順序我們現在訂的KPI跟過去會不一樣以前我們就是看做多少長度但是長度如果沒有連續的話它對人型的同型一樣是沒有辦法達到效果所以這一次我們會強調重視那個連續性的部分連續性嘛然後地點嘛選擇的地點嘛那再來就是地方政府它有沒有投入啦"},{"start":9745,"end":9758.689,"text":"他願不願意首長對於人行、行人的權益他願不願意用他自己的行動、法規或者預算來展現先生首長的這個決心這個也應該一併納入考慮好謝謝好謝謝我們蔡其昌委員的執行那我們下一位我們徐富奎徐富奎委員"},{"start":9776.22,"end":9776.521,"text":"請部長跟署長"},{"start":9783.14,"end":9811.125,"text":"所以我也好謝謝部長這個針對我們行人交通安全設施的努力那不過因為本席在調閱相關數據的時候有發現一個問題就是除了剛剛我們林郡縣委員跟蔡衍委員提到的一些數據之外那針對審計部跟所謂內政部的一個數據上面出現將近有10%的一個人行道普及率的一個落差請教部長這部分的數據到底哪一個是真的"},{"start":9816.688,"end":9838.89,"text":"對,我跟委員報告應該是還是以我們屬統計的比較準確因為他引用的這個數據我們到現在還不是很清楚他的統計圖表中間有沒有所謂的交錯或是有重疊或是他認定了道路基準有沒有一致那所以我們當時才會去認定以我們的這一個這說明還是以我們的為準"},{"start":9839.819,"end":9867.685,"text":"這部分本期建議我們部裡面還是要去澄清避免造成大家的誤解有跟審計部說明過對那另外一個請教部長就是我們在行人交通安全條例的第4條有規定一個績效的評比那就本期的了解那其實針對非六都尤其是屏東縣來講其實我們縣政府都很努力在做一些的設施改善但是會受限到一些條件上的限制那造成績效上的一個"},{"start":9868.385,"end":9868.746,"text":"委員黃捷"},{"start":9885.404,"end":9886.185,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":9901.323,"end":9901.763,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9919.153,"end":9919.493,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":9940.215,"end":9955.027,"text":"審核他的這個內容確不確實因為過去有我才跟我講過去有時間就都控制在一年從提案到施工完成要一年我們現在就拉長同意他拉長就是你要一開始也要把問題點提出來"},{"start":9956.528,"end":9971.702,"text":"所以我們會把這個考核延伸到鄉鎮公所本席的意思是說因為我們之前看到的很多的我們的人行步道我們想要做的做不到了我們要做在公共的旁邊做在商店外流真的是很離譜啦"},{"start":9972.843,"end":9986.941,"text":"所以才會說我們在實際上在查核案子的時候才今年度開始就是說要把它拉長第二個也包含審核期我們就要在這過程當中要嚴格注意這個問題你能不能確實達到這樣的一個效果好"},{"start":9988.344,"end":10010.824,"text":"還有一個很重要的問題,就是剛剛聽到林委員跟我們的蔡理商委員提到6度的普及率各有30幾%、70%,屏東縣不到10%啦,本是聽到很心酸的。我想我們也是這個有納稅,我們應該享受普及的一個人行步道,那這部分怎麼樣請部長跟署長來協助我們屏東縣?"},{"start":10012.971,"end":10035.444,"text":"因為過去的確就是我們在提案上當然縣市政府也會有他自己為難就是說他想做的部分那或是鄉鎮公所所提案的部分那這一個部分就是雙方要來做一個折衷協調因為過去在屏東的確有這一類的問題就是說縣市政府認為應該優先的結果鄉鎮公所並不想提"},{"start":10036.624,"end":10052.07,"text":"這個部分就是我們為什麼第一個要有公民參與就是鼓勵民眾優先來提案第二個我們也會在這過程當中現地去查核去確認看它是不是有優先的一個效益第三個你有沒有忽略了中間過程中會遇到的困難"},{"start":10053.001,"end":10053.141,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":10071.842,"end":10085.798,"text":"另外還有一個很重要的問題就是要拜託部長來協助因為我們現在墾丁大街我想之前也發生過一些很多人車震盪的新聞尤其現在暑假期間人潮、車潮都非常多"},{"start":10086.459,"end":10113.009,"text":"那本席跟屏東縣政府我們有一直想要去做這樣的一個人行步道一個改善計畫但是現在碰到有可能公路總局跟我們的墾管處會有不同的意見那一樣都在部裡面的一個單位那這後續要請部長來做協調一下我們怎麼樣把墾林大街的交通狀況可以做一個有效的改善也避免一些人車一些傷亡的一些事件那這點請部長做一個承諾好不好"},{"start":10114.948,"end":10143.294,"text":"是不是請委員把這個你的建議或者是意見能夠提供給我們部長這我們後續會來講後續再進一步討論謝謝那第二問題我想請教一下部長就是針對我們這個污水處理的問題那屏東縣我想我們也是一個目前在發展一個觀光但是我們的普及率是在全國倒數第7那我想這個署長也常常去屏東也很了解屏東的狀況"},{"start":10144.134,"end":10144.294,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":10162.04,"end":10162.38,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":10189.4,"end":10205.497,"text":"一般的鄉鎮它的人數不多啦所以或許在KPI或是它的一個產生的效果或許沒有那麼好但是這就要考慮鄉鎮的差異過去比較重視呈現的這一個處理量"},{"start":10206.198,"end":10227.422,"text":"那這個部分我都已經有跟同仁講有時候一般鄉鎮他的人數就不會成長了不會成長那麼多可是你還是要把他抬前面現在屏東縣政府面臨的問題是我們家戶接管發報不出去因為我們的單價偏低啦這部分是不是能夠再來協助一下這沒有問題這我們會來協助他的一個那第二個也是跟委員報告就"},{"start":10229.311,"end":10229.771,"text":"市長請部長幫忙一下"},{"start":10246.46,"end":10269.155,"text":"最後一個問題就是我們最近有接到鄉親陳請針對大鵬灣開發的部分有聽說需要我們要回饋25%的一個土地。會不會變成一個很多的棲林地?根文報告這就是其實大鵬灣早期他劃的時候他必須要整體開發因為他是大面積規劃他沒有留公社"},{"start":10270.188,"end":10294.436,"text":"所以在但是整理開發又不可行因為土地太細分了細分到很難有整合的起來所以在這次的通盤檢討就等於有點把這個整開的部分的規定把它拿掉而是由你來個別提供回饋但是我們也有提案提出來就是說到時候審查的時候我們還是希望這個公設是連續性的比如說我如果要討錢樓討錢的樓價給大家好停車"},{"start":10298.558,"end":10324.787,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10325.307,"end":10352.018,"text":"應該是在個別的案子裡面我們可以來去做一些檢討。這裡我們還是建議這個可能不能跟書裡面這邊要做完整的一個說明跟鎖鐵啦。要不然這個地方已經有很多災難出現了,要小心應對啦。好,也不要影響到我們鄉親的權益。好,謝謝。本期資訊到這邊結束。好,謝謝我們徐副會委員的執行。好,謝謝。那下一位我們請何新淳委員執行。"},{"start":10356.434,"end":10359.036,"text":"謝謝吳釗偉。那我們是不是請部長。好,請部長。請李耀昌部長。我想我談的是大方向。謝謝部長。我想今天我談的改善我們道交安全必須要全力拚。雖然要先給予肯定,我們主動去要爬書、面對問題要編預算。那去年12月在我的主持之下,交通委員會通過這個道路交通安全基本法"},{"start":10385.359,"end":10403.219,"text":"《基本法》是上位法,它通過了之後事實上還有很多的執法規要處理。我們今天要立法要處理的《行人交通安全設施條例草案》就是其中一個。我也非常肯定我們能這麼快的把它排進我們的委員會。但是我認為"},{"start":10404.36,"end":10404.72,"text":"議案中央定計劃"},{"start":10427.006,"end":10427.147,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":10442.281,"end":10446.826,"text":"地方政府真的執行很重要也最關鍵那我現在就要說了我們訂了計劃我們空了預算很快速但是呢我還是認為我們內政部在這個方案的績效的指標還是有點保守"},{"start":10458.92,"end":10482.551,"text":"有期呢在我們現在已經3月要結束了那經費也匡列了400億400億我們分1234年來執行但是呢113年度就本年度呢事實上是比例少的比例是少的那而且呢我看到了入口行人安全設施改善我舉這個例子來講就好了那我們看到了"},{"start":10483.516,"end":10508.12,"text":"只有八處也意思是說其實你從113年度來看六項計畫裡面你們打算要做的比例是偏低的所以我不知道為什麼而且我們預設了這八處比如說舉個例子預設了這個各縣市每年度施做改善分配不良之路口這個八處現在有決定是在哪裡了嗎有決定了嗎部長"},{"start":10511.955,"end":10535.786,"text":"委員跟你報告一下我們今年我們這一次其實跟過去有點不太一樣因為有一些縣市其實因為經過這麼多年的這個推動現在慢慢有一些地方其實已經進入深水區所以它會越來難度會越來越高所以我們這一次不會像以前說每一年每一年就是給它一年的一個時間而已我們現在可能把它換換到兩年"},{"start":10537.686,"end":10562.071,"text":"事先做溝通協調解決相關的說明問題所以在今年11.3的部分會比較少一點我看所有框列的數字都比較少比較保守第一年會比較少一點因為我在看預算的話保障行人安全我們第一年框的預算20億"},{"start":10564.938,"end":10586.429,"text":"內政部加交通部起來20億在我們的工作項目裡面的經費的一覽表可能七項裡面可能是123前三項是全台爬輸了之後我們匡列的預算是最高的大概前三項加起來就370、380億左右可是對比我們今年度只有20億"},{"start":10587.589,"end":10611.79,"text":"所以你說第一年是最困難的那進入深水區要給地方政府時間那問題是地方政府現在到底他打算或是你們有沒有跟地方政府協調可以提出多少的這個工程計畫打算做到什麼樣的程度我簡單跟你報告一下因為第一年的時候他用不到那麼多錢所以他在預算上我們會把他這個邊框"},{"start":10613.571,"end":10637.203,"text":"會先框一些所以你的意思說第一年的這20億就內政部加交通部加起來的這20億可能在我們的指標上這些我剛剛講的113年度的可能比例比較少的這個工程項目或是工程計劃那你的意思會延續性的涵蓋在未來的第二年第三年第四年那一個工程會做那麼久不會那麼久不會那麼久"},{"start":10638.063,"end":10642.764,"text":"委員報告,其實在這個狀況下,其實到目前為止地方政府還是非常踴躍提案,我跟委員報告大概已經要超過600件,所以經費應該是會...而且有... 超過600件,我們台中市幾件?"},{"start":10664.814,"end":10689.023,"text":"等一下你再給我順便報告我為什麼會講這件事這麼重要因為我接下來就要告訴你我為什麼提這個路口改善來講我爬出了台中市的資料台中市的這個紅綠燈的路口這個是交通部給的數據在六都裡面台中市是最多路口的6000多個路口那在路口裡面我們都說馬路如虎口"},{"start":10689.724,"end":10695.523,"text":"入口的交通號誌最重要可是我們台中市我這樣看了交通部的資料"},{"start":10696.753,"end":10724.642,"text":"行人保護行人最重要的號誌有一個所謂的行人專用實相一個叫行人早開我們看到以交通部的數據來看台中市都是比例偏低的那它增加了比上個月來講這是112年底的數據它增加的速度也比較慢那表示什麼表示有很多路口應該是要改善的我講的這個是號誌保護行人的這是其中的一個點那我"},{"start":10727.224,"end":10749.82,"text":"覆蓋剛剛講的台中市如果提出了很多這個入口改善的計畫那表示這個紅綠燈也可以包含在計畫裡面共同來改善對不對 署長那你看我們這個數字去年底的數字交通部的數字看我們台中市的這個入口那麼多可是呢保護行人的這個十項號誌比例卻是最低的你有什麼看法"},{"start":10750.049,"end":10771.04,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這裡頭特別先是講到行人的專用實質或行人早開但是並不是所有的入口都要採用這樣的一個設計所以這個就是我剛剛講的所有要改善計畫裡面我們中央要做計畫補助給地方政府那地方政府就去盤點他全市的入口哪些需要做"},{"start":10771.92,"end":10798.559,"text":"負責任何需要保護行人當然這是地方政府的職責他要去盤點我的意思是說我們在做改善路口的時候要補助經費的時候是不是可以來特別注意這件事情我為什麼要特別講這個先下一張台中的道交事故的死傷人數這每一件都讓人傷心難過去年比前年是全面增加"},{"start":10800.741,"end":10820.238,"text":"我們地方的市議員也曾經在議會監督市政府的時候也有提過這一件事情那我現在要講的是那台中市的道交事故死傷人數是爬升的那我們就更需要什麼更需要中央來支持我們台中市政府來改善那要支持是什麼除了法規制度面"},{"start":10821.55,"end":10823.431,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":10851.513,"end":10852.153,"text":"林佩祥委員"},{"start":10874.093,"end":10903.302,"text":"林部長好久不見林部長台灣的都市規劃跟發展其實是相對辛苦而且畸形的因為從1950年代到今天我們的經濟是急速成長而且我們的生活水準也有很顯著的提升所以我們導致現在我們常看到所謂的人車征道其實無法保證我們行人的交通安全尤其是在一些早期開發而且的門口民人口相對密集的一些城市基隆"},{"start":10903.942,"end":10912.681,"text":"台北、台南請問一下內政部在於針對這些老城市的交通安全工程設計上面請問具體的方向是什麼?"},{"start":10914.995,"end":10938.495,"text":"我想在一般的一個交通的一個設計規範上其實都有那另外我們這一次提案特別是針對行人交通安全的設施的部分所以它會包括像比如說行人的這個穿越道或者說包括人行道引導的行人引導行人的行道防護行人的安全的這個部分的設施"},{"start":10938.695,"end":10953.865,"text":"規範 。"},{"start":10955.066,"end":10975.627,"text":"在於保護行人交通安全綜合我們都市計劃、綜合道路空間設計跟交通安全管理策略的前提之下,去年5月份已經通過了一個所謂的行人優先交通安全的行動綱領。而在其中,我能看到草案報告裡面的第3頁的第8項,道路狹窄無法人車分隔,行人空間界限不明、動線不連續。"},{"start":10977.268,"end":11003.239,"text":"本席深意為然因為絕大多數基隆市的道路都有面臨這個困境尤其是我們知道基隆市中正區的新豐街地帶林部長您過去8年也在基隆市政府服務過那也應該深刻了解中正區新豐街是個高密度的住宅區目前全天行車是臃色的行人也是危險辛苦的而車流量非常的驚人"},{"start":11004.059,"end":11031.881,"text":"需需有要有一條分流的道路來解決目前這邊可能超過3萬名的基隆市民的上班通勤的交通問題而且最近這幾年您知道也有一些大型的社區將陸續完空我們這邊的人口將繼續的增加現在有的道路寬度是人眾不足的上下班尖峰時段時常嚴重塞車去年5月份也就是我們提出這個交通安全行動綱領的時候"},{"start":11033.542,"end":11042.157,"text":"基隆市的中正區市議員也在基隆市議會諮詢時提出希望政府能夠重視在中興風階交通擁捨的提出改善方案"},{"start":11043.3,"end":11063.902,"text":"本席認為說以新豐街303巷的寬度與其說是巷倒不如說這是10米以上的道路本席建議在這個路段延長開闢林外道路至條河街效益上是可以直接真正分流讓用路人有多一個選擇讓避免在上班尖峰時間所有的車輛"},{"start":11064.983,"end":11078.702,"text":"都往這個唯一不用經過基隆市區道城交通更擁捨而可以直接上台62線快速道路的深溪路上面積。部長您現在已經身為天下第一大部的部長"},{"start":11079.858,"end":11095.636,"text":"那也有足夠的中央級的權限來協助解決基隆市的一些問題您當過基隆市市長應該對這個問題會有更深的體會基隆包在台北跟新北中間相對比較起來財源是困窘的"},{"start":11096.517,"end":11108.483,"text":"僑復無米難為炊希望您能在這個位置上面跟其他部會一起幫您曾經服務過的接融市中正區做出更大的貢獻促成另外一條新豐街聯外道路的建設請問"},{"start":11112.403,"end":11137.309,"text":"好 兩個部分第一個是在我擔任金融市長的時候其實我們曾經討論過從海中天旁邊有一條其實那已經是都市計畫已經變更的一個計畫道路然後中央的預算也這個編列了然後也給地方支持但那個時候因為國民黨的議員反對甚至到市政府抗爭了所以那一條路本來要開闢後來那一條就停掉了"},{"start":11142.31,"end":11170.049,"text":"那第二個是剛剛委員提到的新峰街旁邊303巷那個可能要慎重因為303巷那個過去之後因為303巷本來是一個社區內的一個道路雖然它比較寬可是你把它變成是聯外的穿越性的道路的時候這個時候可能原本那個10米不塞但是以後它可能會衍生其他的問題那另外還有一個是我們"},{"start":11170.709,"end":11190.261,"text":"在過去曾經規劃了這個八期的重劃區 那個是一個公辦的一個實地重劃案 那當時就有規劃一個更寬的一個道路來銜接新鳳街 那我們認為那是一個比較好的解決方法 可以讓這個新鳳街可以這個減輕它的一個壓力"},{"start":11192.942,"end":11214.492,"text":"因為這些案子全部都跟國土署有關係所以說本期是交通委員會的委員理論上不應該在內政部上面提出交通關係的事情但是這件事情對基隆市尤其您剛剛都講得這麼清楚了那請問如果是您現在的權限您打算做些什麼事我想這一部分比較重要的是在"},{"start":11215.712,"end":11238.168,"text":"市政府準備怎麼樣來解決這個地方的交通問題基本上來講我們會希望說基本上不是基隆市政府而是基隆市民因為當我們現在還在這邊互相在這邊在講說誰的責任應該怎麼做的時候基隆市民明天早上還是會繼續塞車所以是3萬人而且您也知道3萬人會越來越多那針對這一點您現在已經貴為內政部部長"},{"start":11241.19,"end":11241.45,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":11260.482,"end":11283.055,"text":"包括自己的權限,尤其是您都完全知道這些案子的話,您更有資格主動去審視。謝謝委員。不過因為中央地方政府有各自的一個權責,那你剛剛提到這個是涉及整個基隆市的一個規劃,現在這個權責在市政府、在市長,所以市長要下一個決心,他的方案到底是什麼,才有辦法跟中央來做進一步的一個討論。"},{"start":11287.486,"end":11295.175,"text":"有關這個案子的話,您認為是三三三項,如果怎麼樣去做,內政部可以比較快去達到這個另外道路的堅持?"},{"start":11296.345,"end":11301.189,"text":"市政府的整體配套跟想法到底是什麼?所以如果市政府不判的話,內政部可以願意樂觀其成,願意負起相關責任嗎?"},{"start":11318.883,"end":11333.16,"text":"市政府要把方案拿出來才有辦法討論那你沒有辦法單談說303或是說要怎麼做要整體大的範圍去做思考那現在市政府連任何的想法或是方案都沒有這個沒有辦法討論"},{"start":11334.858,"end":11361.751,"text":"好,如果未來說我這邊會有第二次質詢有關此方案,那我想說這時候我們再跟部長...是,如果委員會有人說市政府有具體的方案,不管是A案、B案、C案,還是任何的方案,才有一個討論的基礎,否則這個沒有辦法談。好,對,謝謝。對,要有清楚的想法,我想有清楚的想法我們很願意來做討論跟溝通。好,謝謝林培祥委員的資訊。那我們下一位請楊從英委員資訊。"},{"start":11365.199,"end":11365.22,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11372.803,"end":11397.48,"text":"謝謝主席。楊瓊一發言。那我請部長跟交通部是次長來嗎?部長跟交通部次長。是,我們一起討論。因為現在少子化,而且孩子是我們大家的寶貝。所以他的安全是我們必須要顧。但是我們看到呢,交通事故的這個死亡人數,他是居高不下。"},{"start":11398.4,"end":11418.514,"text":"所以我們做了一個統計,2023年全國有3,023人,10年來它是沒有下降。全國的交通事故,行人的死傷人數更是17,660人,它也是不斷在上升。我們不斷地在改,但是它不斷地在上升,讓我們很難過。"},{"start":11421.557,"end":11437.536,"text":"草案規範道路一定寬度要設人行道這是我們有必要檢討的機制以往的計算方式跟現在整個交通的設備我相信也"},{"start":11438.237,"end":11462.965,"text":"一直在進步也一直不一樣所以我們看到內政部的說法說這個111年全國人行普及率人行道的普及率有達到44.01%所以本學要請問我們大家都很關心這個修法之後很重要的就是說人行道的設置"},{"start":11464.705,"end":11464.885,"text":"請作說明。"},{"start":11478.003,"end":11499.852,"text":"委員跟你報告我們過去在訂定相關的一個績效評比的時候是以長度來計算不過我們可能要改變因為長度如果只是長度的話他如果不連續他一樣人形還是環境還是不好所以我們剛才布達你講到這個重點很難怪你當過行政首長因為我們經常看到一條路"},{"start":11500.532,"end":11501.213,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":11526.131,"end":11540.869,"text":"兩個部分第一個是點也就是我們在條例裡面有特別提到有一些這個比如說包括醫院啦等等這些學校醫院的周邊的改善第二個就是這些點的串聯"},{"start":11542.531,"end":11555.824,"text":"第三個就是行人友善區域的劃設。行人友善區域劃設就是會牽扯到面積而不是用一個、兩個、三個、四個行人友善區域來計算。我們講到學校、講到醫院也就是12歲以下的兒童交通死亡率這個人數也是一樣它不減"},{"start":11566.014,"end":11590.301,"text":"不僅真的讓我們特難過的所以我們要怎麼處理呢政府宣誓要解決行人地獄所以我們看到去年的全國兒童交通事故死傷人數我剛才說了他是不僅反增甚至拿到了這麼多人我都不忍心講出來一萬多人所以學校周邊30的這個數線這個我們現在執行率怎麼樣呢"},{"start":11596.365,"end":11611.831,"text":"是,委員跟你報告,這個數字可能我們要再進一步分,因為這有可能是車輛,或者是說騎乘摩托車搭載,可能他不是在...你把這個資料去...去...去...是,我們再把它查清楚。 是,我們再把它查清楚。所以我要告訴你,本身要告訴你就是說南韓,"},{"start":11612.811,"end":11635.256,"text":"此為為提出這個限數呢南韓他們10年來有效改善他交通事故的死亡率你平平點頭你也知道這個點他們是其中成功的限數是他們所有成功的條件非常重要的一個必要條件也就是限數喔那所以南韓在他們的道路安全法當中有學區的概念"},{"start":11635.996,"end":11636.096,"text":"請作說明。"},{"start":11653.692,"end":11666.607,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關學區的這樣的一個概念就是校園周邊改善其實交通部會同內政部有訂一個參考指引來供各縣市來改善校園周邊我們會不會拿南韓他們成功的案例來強制執行之"},{"start":11669.871,"end":11678.297,"text":"參考執意裏面就有特別提到學卓通學路廊在通學路廊裏面的樹線就要有所限制比如說比照這裏是30公裏你是不是去盤點一下好不好我們居然不減反增這是很難過的一件事情"},{"start":11691.186,"end":11706.391,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":11706.792,"end":11732.951,"text":"不能讓人民一直難過啊政府就是要有為啊那要怎麼做?你知道你現在參考下去執行率有多少嗎?你們有沒有盤點?這個交通部會進行盤點那我們在法裡面其實就有訂那個行人友善區那縣市政府他認為那個區域要這個做行人友善的一個規劃的話就可以把它劃為是行人友善區不打你搶著發言我告訴你喔你搶著發"},{"start":11733.772,"end":11734.613,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":11754.893,"end":11783.012,"text":"部長你剛剛搶著發言我們看到草案裡頭有你所說的行人友善區行人友善區那本席是全力支持但是我還是要強調我們法訂定之後你必須要去看它的落實度你這訂法不去執行那你訂這個法幹嘛呢因為我們要看的是結果論結果論是行人損失的它是一直增加我相信你聽到這個數字你也很難過對不對"},{"start":11785.193,"end":11812.137,"text":"所以就是說我們到時候這個法的部分通過之後必須要去務實去執行所以針對於學區的行人安全設施步道等我們還有一個點我們一併討論就是說學童身高的設置你是不是有列入在這個範圍內他的身高有沒有包括在這個範圍的考量之內你在訂定這個法律在執行面的部分"},{"start":11813.704,"end":11841.207,"text":"為什麼本席會提出這一點呢?我們要注意一點因為以前我們的營養沒那麼好他的身高沒那麼高現在國小啊國小也有170幾的國小六年級就有170幾公分的所以這相關的必要條件要納入你們在立法的而且執行面的一個考量當中好好去考慮好不好我想這部分我們再跟委員請教"},{"start":11842.108,"end":11842.128,"text":"委員會復議"},{"start":11859.331,"end":11881.606,"text":"參考值但是那個參考到目前為止你要去看他們所執行的成效到底是怎麼樣好不好不管是道德勸說也好啊怎麼樣就是想辦法要去把它弄得安全讓我們的孩子不要再損失了嘛好不好你多久數多久那個那個資料給本席江部我想委員會給我們大概3個月"},{"start":11889.616,"end":11890.096,"text":"我接受你喔!要好好去盤點好不好?謝謝!"},{"start":11918.995,"end":11924.999,"text":"主席好本席想請林部長還有陳政次以及我們經濟部的黃專委"},{"start":11948.811,"end":11977.151,"text":"經濟部財務部長好還有我們的陳政次以及黃專委首先本席在這裡看到我們經濟部的報告書我們看到暗油是我們行政院像我們今天要審這個行人優先交通安全這個叫"},{"start":11980.598,"end":12000.4,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案我們看到行政院在去年通過了一個行人優先交通安全行動綱領到8月又來一個行人交通安全政策綱領讓我們感覺我們的行政單位好像"},{"start":12001.141,"end":12021.789,"text":"委員黃捷等16人在作文比賽。我們不管是行動綱領、政策綱領但是我們需要的是我們政府的執行力到底我們現在影響我們行人交通安全或是行人的要通暢我們行走的"},{"start":12022.669,"end":12049.091,"text":"通暢的這種障礙的排除到底落實了多少那個才是民眾最關心的那我們內政部也提了這個推動計劃改善計劃所以我們的行政單位大部分都在寫作文或者是負責寫計劃本席首先在這裡要提的是我們今天會要審這個草案我們要的是執行力"},{"start":12049.531,"end":12066.886,"text":"是真正落實讓行人有感我們在走在路上的時候這個所有的障礙物我們希望把它排除的我們都能夠盡量的來排除首先所以第一個本席接下來要談的是我們草案的第8條第8條有"},{"start":12070.128,"end":12086.761,"text":"防範排除行人通行固定設施設備的排除。這個排除首先我們在法條裡面就第一個也特別講到我們要由主管機關協助規劃"},{"start":12089.463,"end":12101.828,"text":"事合之方式或地點辦理設施設備的改善所以本席在這裡首先要提到我們在人行道上最常碰到的要改善的是油箱、變電箱、消防栓、電信設備、電線桿、瓦斯設備"},{"start":12109.691,"end":12133.497,"text":"這個大部分在經濟部的事業單位所以我看到經濟部的計畫特別寫說要請地方政府或道路主管機關可能是交通部以相關規範來施設而如何改善跟移除呢要由主管機關協助規劃適合的方式或地點"},{"start":12134.497,"end":12144.431,"text":"那辦理設施設備的改善遷移或拆除本行想問的是到底誰負責來辦理設施設備的改善移除"},{"start":12147.71,"end":12148.671,"text":"這個應該是誰?"},{"start":12148.671,"end":12169.4,"text":"是我們經濟部相關單位看它是變電箱還是電信設備還是由我們地方政府到底是誰?跟委員報告一下因為我們這些在這個不管是在道路或是在人行道上面設施的這些設施我們都要經過那個道路主管機關同意"},{"start":12170.08,"end":12171.301,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查 »:"},{"start":12187.811,"end":12207.029,"text":"當然這個部分像台電的話我們都會配合辦理對所以台電配合辦理好那如果是這樣的話接著他底下寫齁這個期限呢不得少於三個月欸這一點就非常有趣我們的草案部長我們的草案就是不得少於三個月意思就是說我給你我不能"},{"start":12208.05,"end":12210.271,"text":"不得少於三個月是三個月以內"},{"start":12231.288,"end":12249.774,"text":"第一項他期限不得少於三個月啊。 以上啦以上啦。 對,三個月以上啊。 那你三個月以上沒有上限啊,往上沒有上限啊。 對方政府不會給太久的。 所以你現在就變成是地方政府。 那地方政府不會給太久的意思是什麼?"},{"start":12249.774,"end":12256.496,"text":"所以他們就是會,比如說五個月內或半年內。 地方政府當然是越快越好啊。"},{"start":12259.034,"end":12275.279,"text":"我的意思是我們的法規沒有規定上限現在現況的情況就是都沒有做或者是都一直拖我跟委員報告一下你剛剛有提到一個很重要的觀點就是說在執行面"},{"start":12277.24,"end":12295.071,"text":"關線的一個遷移最大的一個問題就是在有沒有辦法比如說電線桿或是說電箱他沒有辦法找到適當的遷移那這個就是在就是說只要地方政府不要再提這個剛剛已經有講那這個地點誰要確定誰要來負責找地方政府"},{"start":12298.593,"end":12310.061,"text":"所以地方政府要負責幫你找地點而不是我要簽變電箱跟電線桿我目的事業主管機關要找因為你這個簽你的變電箱或電線桿老實講像您當過市長的人"},{"start":12315.305,"end":12333.213,"text":"你也不是專業啊那你變電箱跟電線桿他可能會需要他又要牽電啊什麼的他所需要的地點可能還是他們比較了解這個兩兆會協調這個兩兆會協調因為找的點也必須他們也會找然後地方政府來協助"},{"start":12334.934,"end":12360.295,"text":"那這個時間上本席希望就是說除了有下限我們還要變上限那沒關係這個部分我也提出修正動議好接著很快的我要來請教就是我們有關這個騎樓我想一個是人行道再來就是騎樓騎樓也是我們民眾最在意的那我們這個騎樓的部分我們怎麼樣可以讓"},{"start":12360.936,"end":12361.536,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":12375.419,"end":12401.817,"text":"報告委員,就地方政府實際的實務上來講都是要經過地主同意的所有權人對不對?是好,那本席請秀一下同意片這個大法官有解釋,564號道路交通管理處罰條例第三條第一款所稱棋樓技術道路其所有人於建築之初及附有提供公眾通行之義務沒錯所以"},{"start":12403.078,"end":12421.155,"text":"其實也不用等到他們都同意有人不同意你怎麼辦難道你這個棋樓我就不讓他通暢嗎跟委員報告就是他是這樣子喔因為他屬於私人空間那如果你有違反我說明一下如果他有違反道交條例的部分當然就依照道交條例的規定去處罰"},{"start":12424.081,"end":12449.873,"text":"所以他就不用他同意嘛那不用他同意因為這個大法官已經解釋了那所以我們對於齊樓的這個整平我們還是希望我們的中央單位應該我們有更積極的作為一個不用所有人同意再來就是如果要我們現在齊樓不好意思再給我一點時間我們齊樓最容易就是所有權人他可能"},{"start":12450.333,"end":12479.138,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":12481.37,"end":12494.09,"text":"請問他,他要負什麼樣的責任嗎?有沒有刑事責任?有沒有刑事責任?沒有刑事責任?我們可不可以請法務部廖參事回答一下這個有沒有刑事責任?"},{"start":12502.558,"end":12517.975,"text":"委員那要看個案狀況如果破壞的是屬於我們政府單位建設的道路那就有可能是有毀損公務的問題那要看它毀損的物品是怎樣"},{"start":12519.304,"end":12543.778,"text":"所以在我們第12條的處罰裡面你是提到五千到兩萬五那而且是按次處罰什麼叫按次處罰也就是說我給就那一次沒有我給你期限那你沒有改善我再來看就是在這期限然後我再來看你沒有改善就處罰然後如果再給期限又沒有就再繼續可以連續處罰的意思那"},{"start":12546.598,"end":12574.898,"text":"好,那所以我們希望這個騎樓的部分能夠有強制執行這樣的一個規範所以可不可以我們的主管機關可以帶旅行這個部分就是由我們主管,因為你等他等了其實都是一個迴圈我們主管機關可不可以帶旅行然後最後跟他拿錢"},{"start":12576.612,"end":12598.859,"text":"這個部分可能各縣市會不一樣這個部分我們來跟地方政府溝通因為其實地方政府應該還蠻願意來帶旅行的所以本席也有提動議修正動議我們希望我們中央要有明確的規範還有讓地方能夠有所依循這一塊我也在這邊特別溝通好 謝謝好 謝謝我們習新宇委員的資訊 謝謝"},{"start":12604.349,"end":12618.257,"text":"那再來請我們的廖宣祥 廖宣祥委員執行 那廖宣祥委員執行完了 我們後面就到油耗 我們中午就休息 好 謝謝好 謝謝 趙偉 你要麻煩邀請我們的部長好 請我們的部長 謝謝"},{"start":12630.917,"end":12644.295,"text":"委員好,部長好。其實我個人是非常支持有關這次行人交通安全設施條例草案的推動。我個人認為您比交通部長還適合來守護行人的安全。"},{"start":12645.737,"end":12665.647,"text":"上一次有一個新聞在院會的質詢 我不曉得能不能注意到我有提到我們人行道的一些可能最主要是它有一個源頭就是違罪不舉發不祭典那我討論到人行道的部分那我想跟我們的部長確認一下我們在做人行道設施的改善的時候應該是給人走的 不是給車停的嘛 對吧"},{"start":12666.85,"end":12670.351,"text":"當初有提到說王部長有說有維廷那我們執法的力道不會減輕警察就會馬上來取締或是拖吊那這個可能就不是取締或拖吊就不是交通部的業務了可能對我們內政部有一些期許"},{"start":12690.976,"end":12706.621,"text":"那我不曉得我們部長對於如果說將來我們的行人設施有一些違規的行為的時候你會期待我們的警方在多久的時間以內去執行我們王國才部長講的取締以及脫調您認為民眾檢舉多久以內應該要執行他說強度不會減少"},{"start":12714.779,"end":12743.365,"text":"我想我們警方其實這個都是經常性平常都在辦的工作也不會因為目前就是因為常常檢舉了之後過了一個小時兩個小時都沒看到人啊這車就走了啊那沒有我不是說內政部要要求警方幾分鐘內一定要抵達而是如果說今天您是一個陳情人部長您是陳情人您會希望你在檢舉相關的案件的時候多久時間以內你會看到警方來做執法你會期待你會期待"},{"start":12744.839,"end":12769.357,"text":"我想我們警方因為平常也都有巡邏的警網所以如果有類似的狀況其實也不帶檢舉其實員警看到其實就會處理沒關係啦所以部長不敢給一個明確的一個時間嘛那也就是說其實王國才部長講的啦這個警方這個就會立即的取締因為這件事情好像我們內政部可能是做不到啦沒辦法給出具體的一個時間啦警方一定是全力執法"},{"start":12773.1,"end":12799.563,"text":"那沒關係回到條例本身我們第8點有提到我第8條有提到才有妨礙行人通行的固定設施啦那妨礙行人通行的固定設施是指一個固定的鉤紮屋在可能行人的通行的空間上面那這個行人通行的空間是指我們公有的人行道還是也會提到我們第9條講的這個建築物的騎樓或者是無正義的人行道地面"},{"start":12801.83,"end":12813.06,"text":"所以我們包括我們建築物的一些法控如果說他在我們的建築的圖說上面他是無正言人行道那也是在適用的法條範圍內那"},{"start":12816.85,"end":12832.146,"text":"如果說那到了第9條那這些設施的構造物的存在如果說在法定之前就已經存在的會既往不就嗎還是會一致的這個不管時程是一致的處理原則不管它設置的時間好所以這個"},{"start":12835.188,"end":12848.543,"text":"法條很明確的就是規範到我們公有的人行空間以及私有建築物在可能圖面上面應該要供行人通行的無論是起樓或是無正義人行道都在我們的私用範圍內確定喔"},{"start":12853.506,"end":12868.676,"text":"我個人會支持,但是我們可能會遇到蠻多的阻力,那當然遇到阻力大家一起來推,那我就確認法條的部分是不是包括私有建築物的開放空間裡面的物證業變形包"},{"start":12869.997,"end":12895.859,"text":"委員我跟您報告第9條的部分你看到這個就是指的是我們這個路段統一修整之後重修那它如果統一修整之後它還有擅自改建然後不符合相關的一個標準或者妨礙行人通道等等我們是要求它在兩個月內改善對我就是單純指的第8條的行人通行妨礙行人通行"},{"start":12897.676,"end":12920.329,"text":"在怎樣的情況下叫做我們法定適用的範圍其實那個妨礙行人通行的部分現在現況其實現有的相關的一個規定跟辦法其實就已經有在處理好所以就是妨礙行人通行確定就是不只我們公有的人行道包括私有建築物的在主要在圖館上面公眾通行公眾通行"},{"start":12920.649,"end":12923.83,"text":"第九點,我們地方政府可以依據建築物的起頭跟無證人行道去指定路段重修。"},{"start":12938.374,"end":12957.535,"text":"現在我們內政部有騎樓整平的專案嘛對不對?就是補助地方政府那至於這個建築物的無遮掩人行到地面就是私有的無遮掩人行到地面我們內政部後續也會提出相關的補助辦法嗎?跟委員報告就是說我們會讓地方政府提出來的時候就一併連這個都一起納進去"},{"start":12960.458,"end":12984.136,"text":"就是它整個路段的改善的時候就會有涵蓋這一些都可以一起納進去所以就是我們地方政府提可能就不是你們是希望它不是局部一個點一個點一個社區一個社區而是整個路段整個路段然後然後我們內政部就會依據這個分擔比例的原則來做補助嗎對好那就是那如果說因為其實我很沒有辦法單就因為"},{"start":12985.077,"end":13005.295,"text":"早期的建築物那個圖面有時候都非常舊如果說它的現況可能大家直觀上是公行人通行的一個區域但是它可能在我們建築物的圖面上面它就是很單純的法庭空地它並沒有標註為這個無正義的人行道那這樣子的情況下我們是從寬來認定嗎?"},{"start":13006.878,"end":13021.356,"text":"當然跟委員報告當然這個就是回到他原來的規定他如果並沒有提供的話當然我們也不會是強制要求而是這個就要但是如果說所有權人的比如說管理委員會有同意的話當然我們就是可能依現況來看所以就是讓"},{"start":13022.537,"end":13048.848,"text":"這就是讓地方政府有一點溝通協調的時間這不是說一定當法規當你原來的圖說裡面並沒有強制的話那並沒有規定的話那當然就是尊重地方政府跟當事人所以地方政府願意那土地所詮願意那計畫送曬我們內政部不會因為他可能在建築物上面的這個圖說的標示而不予補助吧不會不會苛責到這個地方嗎好那以上好謝謝今天的視頻到這邊謝謝好謝謝召委"},{"start":13051.281,"end":13051.482,"text":"吳思瑤委員"},{"start":13070.433,"end":13072.255,"text":"國土功能分區圖公告期限目前為止只有哪幾個縣市提出來?"},{"start":13095.047,"end":13121.877,"text":"目前只有連江、金門跟花蓮更何況在花蓮縣政府提出來的我們前天在交通委員會審查的花東快速公路建設特別條例居然花蓮縣政府送出來的這一個國土功能分區圖並沒有把現在傅昆祺委員在爭取的這個快速道路劃進去所以代表花蓮縣即使送出來了內容是大有問題嘛"},{"start":13123.297,"end":13144.523,"text":"所以說目前是三個縣市送出來所以呢我們為了因應縣市政府作業期程那當然我們在立法院也有委員提案那也希望說這個公告的期限是不是要展演所以它是配合地方政府的作業需求以及也有立法委員的提案可是我今天在媒體上看到這樣一個下標跟報導的內容"},{"start":13150.685,"end":13156.288,"text":"說是因為政府而且是中央政府帶頭炒地皮所以呢我們要把這個時間展言然後又踢到鄭文燦副院長他是要協助地方政府解決問題4月1號鄭文燦副院長要召開會議針對立法院的這一個是不是展言的建議然後主動邀集地方政府看看他們面臨什麼困難是不是需要展言"},{"start":13179.399,"end":13191.231,"text":"結果接到一個媒體的報導說是中央政府炒地皮錯假的訊息要嚴正澄清啊你們今天有沒有看到這個新聞有沒有如同我一樣詫異給您30秒鐘做一下清楚的澄清好嗎部長"},{"start":13202.623,"end":13210.632,"text":"國土計劃的推動需要中央跟地方大家一起努力。所有的公民分區圖都是地方政府提出來的。"},{"start":13211.613,"end":13232.945,"text":"所以這個到目前為止只有三個縣市提所以我們委員也有很關心然後地方政府的反應有相關的一些這個困難跟問題需要被釐清跟解決所以行政院也邀請相關的一個部會跟最重要要聽各縣市政府的一個聲音所以主要是要聽地方政府的聲音"},{"start":13237.688,"end":13249.615,"text":"所以沒有人在炒地皮不要錯誤的連結不要亂扣帽子我今天在這裡也要做一個清楚的澄清因為我們作為立法委員我非常關切我們在做出國土計畫的討論的那場會議上確實有好幾位委員提案"},{"start":13257.74,"end":13281.49,"text":"希望說中央政府強化跟地方政府的溝通就這個騎乘的部分多溝通多幫忙但是內政部還是站在希望能夠如期來進行的這個立場好我們在這裡要打假打詐占用了我一些時間好進入我們的主題下一頁照顧行人交通安全我們的政府真的做最多而且做最好因為我們看到社會的要求"},{"start":13285.464,"end":13303.012,"text":"做得不夠好的就繼續讓它更好本席有參與提案的道路交通安全基本法完成立法國家用一個基本法的高位階來保障交通平權行人安全我們完成立法"},{"start":13303.832,"end":13314.281,"text":"第二個就是我們今天在討論的硬體改善由內政部負責任的提出一個專法協助地方政府解決硬體工程面的問題當然最下端也就是末端就是監理跟執法要能夠反映民意我們未來也會持續來檢討"},{"start":13324.17,"end":13348.408,"text":"所以以這個金三角來講我們如果做得不夠好趕快努力做但是完成了台灣第10部基本法是在我們的手上完成史上第一個內政部主導的新法從工程面的改善也是我們開始做我要肯定你們要勇敢的把我們未來的經濟作為大聲的講出去下一頁"},{"start":13349.309,"end":13371.167,"text":"好基本法能夠訂定基本國策展現政策的高度整合政策工具拓展廣度謀求永續的發展延伸長度要確保一個不論誰執政行人安全都可以持續貫徹的政策方向所以說今天的法就依據這個基本法我們來立好下一頁"},{"start":13372.228,"end":13395.375,"text":"我調閱出的資料這個是內政部我們投入了四年四百億中央來協力地方目標是六百案就如同你們今天報告的點線面點就是重要路口的改善線就是人行道的延伸連結面就是行人的友善區都要做"},{"start":13396.155,"end":13419.067,"text":"但是這個四年四百億我特別要拿出來講是因為我作為台北市的立委我在北投天母區帶頭帶著台北市政府去做很多的會刊而且我優先從學校的通學安全周邊來下手這個是我跟內政部調的資料我們原定要協助地方政府補助六百案"},{"start":13420.067,"end":13442.865,"text":"現在各縣市已經執行了合定了799案已經超標就本席的臺北市拿到199案是最高的改善道路交通安全最高拿最多在臺北市我的選區北投天母目前有10案我要秀這個圖是要告訴內政部"},{"start":13444.026,"end":13444.046,"text":"委員會復議"},{"start":13459.571,"end":13459.731,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":13481.218,"end":13497.087,"text":"表現、標誌就可以改善。人行道如果有被阻絕,它就應當來排除,來做基本的工法、基本的工程。中央真的做這麼多,不能讓地方政府覺得他們都沒有這個力量。"},{"start":13499.727,"end":13518.114,"text":"您過去也擔任基隆市長,我甚至看到您跟設計研究院合作,Design導入,在基隆做了很多通學項,非常好。 所以我在這裡具體的建議是,雖然我們在這個計畫方案原定是補助地方政府600案,已經超標了,但是能做更多就繼續協助,是嗎?"},{"start":13518.114,"end":13518.134,"text":"是。"},{"start":13521.216,"end":13535.695,"text":"謝謝委員你剛剛講到一個重點因為整個執行面是在地方政府所以地方的縣市首長有人本環境的思維是非常重要的一個所以我要求雖然已經超標"},{"start":13536.496,"end":13545.162,"text":"但是無上限的繼續幫忙地方政府第二個就以您過去擔任基隆市長的經驗您跟設計界的合作透過設計的導入可以更有效精準的做到行人友善我認為在您我們審議這個法案過程"},{"start":13555.289,"end":13555.449,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":13583.805,"end":13589.47,"text":"謝謝吳思耀委員的執行。現在下一位我們請黃珊珊委員。好請部長"},{"start":13604.105,"end":13612.752,"text":"我來補充報告一下因為黃珊珊委員執行完我們中午就休息用餐我們下午1點半繼續開會我想在審計部曾經有過報告對於政府推動交通安全改善的情況"},{"start":13622.789,"end":13643.742,"text":"認為全國的市區道路有三分之一的道路人行道進空不足然後三分之一的路段沒有完成電纜的地下化所以周邊交通事故頻繁那人行道小於0.9公尺的人椅也沒辦法通過那騎樓不整平也是身障偷行的難題人行道由於人與殺手所以"},{"start":13644.562,"end":13667.977,"text":"內政部提了這個相關的行人交通安全設施條例的草案跟我們內政部本來就有所謂的市區道路條例還有它所市區道路跟附屬工程設計標準它是市區道路條例的特別法嗎?其實並不是它是另外一個新的基本法這個是一個作用法"},{"start":13670.214,"end":13698.323,"text":"這是一個什麼法?作用法。它跟它的原來的市區道路設計的這個道路條例的關係是什麼?我們在這一部分以前...不知道,我直接講。針對...市區道路條例很清楚,人行道上原則上不發射機車停車格。但是從這個條例當初到現在,這件事情沒有被遵守過。各個縣市政府在人行道上發射的機車停車格化了一大堆,不是嗎?"},{"start":13700.182,"end":13718.43,"text":"第二個後來我們又設了吊銷條例道路交通管理處罰條例又說在人行道也可以設置必要的耗置標線例行規定機車慢車的停車處所我今天要講的就是中華民國的法律各自互相焊隔而且互相衝突"},{"start":13719.21,"end":13741.602,"text":"市區道路條例還有它的附屬工程設計標準不准在人行道上設機車停車格道交條例可以請問部長那人民要聽哪一個跟委員報告所以這一個法就是其實在對人行道就一個你又有個新的法所以我想問你這個新的法是不是可以推翻這兩個現有的法"},{"start":13742.267,"end":13743.008,"text":"市區大陸條例很久了但是"},{"start":13758.663,"end":13775.801,"text":"當地方政府因為可能里長要求住戶不同意管道不通這些第4台不願意遷移或者是水電瓦斯公司他們找不到地方遷所以我們的道路會進行到設計永遠沒有按照道路市區道路條例來設置對吧"},{"start":13777.923,"end":13802.159,"text":"長年 幾十年應該這麼說因為我覺得他原來的定義是說原則上是禁止但是你如果要設計的時候那你必須要保留一定的境寬所以各位就是我們有法律然後不遵守然後有法律不遵守之後我們對他們地方政府也沒有任何的法則我今天就要問了這個新的行人交通安全設施條例草案一樣"},{"start":13803.328,"end":13829.238,"text":"有很多基本的概念但是有沒有任何對於地方政府要求的強制規定有沒有是跟委員報告就是說有還是沒有重點是在罰者重點是罰的是誰罰的是人你有沒有罰過地方政府跟委員報告新的這個條例裡面就是扣地方的補助款扣地方的補助款林部長你覺得扣地方補助款就有用嗎"},{"start":13830.725,"end":13834.448,"text":"我今天要問的是這個法到底有沒有強制性你只是扣補助款就可以解決現在大家擔心的行人地域的問題嗎當然沒有是這個法你覺得還不夠好還是還可以更好"},{"start":13857.086,"end":13859.047,"text":"道交條例跟這個法裡面的法則有重複的你知道嗎?"},{"start":13867.614,"end":13892.844,"text":"有漢格的、有重復、有淨核的、還有罰款的。 是,不過剛剛跟委員補充一句,就是說剛剛在講說罰款,我是認為是這個效果不會太多、太大了。 是,所以我們對地方政府的強制力在哪裡?如果只是課不住款,部長,我現在就可以告訴你,沒有用!失去道路條例已經世世多少年了,你早就可以課不住款了!"},{"start":13894,"end":13894.22,"text":"拜託補助"},{"start":13915.908,"end":13943.256,"text":"做不到沒轍兩手一攤今天又要設計一個新的法我們很樂見這表示政府對於行人安全的重視但是看完這個法我很失望因為它又是一個空泛的基本法它對於地方政府沒有直接的強制性第二個沒有對於這個規範有任何的要求地方政府做到設計要符合這個規範最嚴重的是還跟其他的法規互相衝突這是什麼基本法"},{"start":13946.438,"end":13965.731,"text":"誰要回答我呢他設計一定要照標準沒有照標準的時候就是扣補助款這件事情請部長給我一個很清楚你有什麼樣的工具他如果不照標準的話案子就不會就不會準我們連準都不會準是啊你現在地方政府的東西多得一塌糊塗啊"},{"start":13966.909,"end":13968.391,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":13986.972,"end":14011.064,"text":"停車人行道能不能提腳踏車人行道能不能要求他們機車必須要停機車這些基本的漢格的東西要處理第二個代交條例的法環跟你的新的法環兩個衝突的地方要做處理最重要的是我希望部長這邊要做一件事就是讓中華民國的法律讓地方政府都能徹底的執行"},{"start":14011.824,"end":14034.315,"text":"不是只是參考用是當然委員再跟你補充一下因為道交條例他最主要的管行為我們這是管設施但是道交條例讓人讓機慢車又可以上人行道但是市區設施條例又不行沒關係修掉不要放在那邊好看這邊不行那邊可以一個最好的兩個法律可以完全不一樣"},{"start":14035.677,"end":14060.726,"text":"百姓就會這樣子 越來越不相信政府 這才是問題我想我們這一部分 不會我們會照委員徹律師 請你一個禮拜之內把我剛剛講的這些可能的衝突問題做個釐清 讓有本席的訊息回復是 這在研擬的過程裡面 其實也都討論過好 把完整的衝突的部分 漢格的部分甚至有所謂競合的部分 把它釐清楚 是 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行政院本來就已經有核定方案逐步的在處理吼那我們從接下來還有一百今年起也編了四年四百億我們跟交通部一起來辦理永續提升人行的交通安全計畫在執行面現在當然有方案"},{"start":18311.677,"end":18330.678,"text":"當然特別是針對今天我們行人交通安全設施條例的立法後續我們對於最優先要處理的部分就會有地方計畫讓我們核定給他補助就會落實在實際的區域面的全面來執行這樣子的一個工作"},{"start":18331.078,"end":18342.189,"text":"那有沒有具體的一個方向可以在一年內或兩年內針對這個包括人行道上這種機車停犯或是雜物有一個具體的一個目標"},{"start":18343.53,"end":18343.55,"text":"委員長"},{"start":18366.857,"end":18384.948,"text":"好那因為我坦白講以這樣子簡單的一個對話我並沒有辦法讓就是我連我自己都沒有辦法知道目前的目標跟執行要如何那我相信全國民眾也沒有辦法知道清楚要如何達到這個目標那我是覺得以目前來講針對我們這個行人人行道的部分"},{"start":18385.408,"end":18385.548,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":18403.493,"end":18420.551,"text":"那同樣的就是我過去在當助理期間那時候在蔡錦榮委員辦公室當他的法案助理那時候看到許多伸張者他們走上街頭那因為這個無障礙設施那時候是沒有很普遍那所以到最後他們走上街頭那時候我寫了提案給蔡錦榮委員"},{"start":18421.632,"end":18448.445,"text":"還就在一個月之內那時候剛好就直接通過臨時提案到最後一個月內把這個鐵火車站附近的無障礙設施做一個通盤檢討並且改善那本席也想要在現在重新再再跟您請教因為這已過了12年那現在在所謂的各個主要道路的幹道上是不是香港的那種無障礙的這種這種道路的這種人行道的設施都有達到一個比例嗎"},{"start":18450.322,"end":18451.905,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":18465.141,"end":18490.104,"text":"這個法案有一個很重要的目的就是要地方提長期的改善的計畫每年要做哪些地方最優先是什麼那我們就針對那樣的計畫下去補助下去管考所以說實際上會比較是全國一致有計畫性的全面來推動那今天這個法案就會朝這個方向來走當然我希望說在推動這個法案的過程中一定要有一些數據做一些做一些佐證"},{"start":18491.125,"end":18518.939,"text":"在做這個法案的推動上在執行的話才能夠有憑有據那同樣的本席因為這個我相信今天的這個條文我們後面會持續來去做審視那所以也希望說針對無障礙目前來講交通部內或是在這個整個聯席的相關部會這相關的目前的資料一樣送一份給本席那下一次我會持續追蹤在主要幹道或是主要設施目前的一個施作的概況那到時候我們再繼續來檢討"},{"start":18520.94,"end":18542.726,"text":"接著就是在交通部大安會公告的數據在2018年到2025年間12歲以下的兒童死亡加受傷高達46206名更有101名的兒童不幸死亡所以換算起來平均每天是有超過25位兒童因為交通事故受傷或死亡"},{"start":18543.706,"end":18572.068,"text":"本席在這裡還是要提出這樣子的一個兒童交通事故受傷的一個嚴重程度是連監察院葉大法都已經在2022年提出報告那我也希望說在未來的這個法規的審視上能夠針對兒童的部分在教學教育的環境也能夠有更多的一個宣導因為在比照日本的一個經驗他其實在兒童學生他們在上學的時候就有進行這些相關的宣導那我希望這個部分能夠持續來去落實"},{"start":18574.987,"end":18575.607,"text":"國土署長"},{"start":18593.199,"end":18614.53,"text":"國路計畫法南投縣目前來講我們的態度是那時候在議會我們也通過希望暫緩實施營地質疑我想先請教一下署長在目前來講在目前要實施的部分有哪些限制有一個明確的表態有遇到困境也希望表達暫緩"},{"start":18616.092,"end":18616.833,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":18640.273,"end":18665.643,"text":"民意代表的意見也有很多類似因為太多的細節其實都還沒有被處理好對沒錯太多的細節還沒有被處理好所以地方的民意代表希望爭取多一點時間沒錯因為我坦白跟署長講在前一年的時候地方上面我們在很多的鄉鎮有些在南投這種偏鄉大家在爭論的就是國土俱樂法實施之後有些農民他們的土地到時候變成化為國寶"},{"start":18667.083,"end":18696.186,"text":"在南投只有2.72是屬於城鄉發展所以許多的榮民他們在這個要實施的時候跟縣府反應跟他們原本的土地都受到影響所以本席在這裡一樣是再次重申南投縣也是希望包括跟新竹縣包括跟新北市還有許多南部縣市也都提出了希望能夠暫緩實施因地制宜那如果在暫緩兩年的部分針對修法第45條那這個態度你是支持給地方縣市政府空間嗎"},{"start":18696.866,"end":18696.886,"text":"請審查"},{"start":18720.752,"end":18723.614,"text":"主席的眼鏡是被黃捷委員拿到哪裡去了?"},{"start":18745.93,"end":18766.756,"text":"請內政部跟交通部請內政部我們的副處長以及我們交通部我們的處長市長有幾個事情我們今天討論到這個行人剛剛大家講到行人地域或行人交通安全的問題"},{"start":18769.246,"end":18793.849,"text":"我想不管是次長或者是剛才吳署長國土署吳署長應該都有印象我們其實在去年的時候大概八九月的時候那時候我們跟很多相關的路權團體其實進行了幾次我覺得非常非常深度而且非常正面大家的交流那在那裡面我不知道次長還記不記得其實就有團體反映喔如果你是一個障礙者"},{"start":18795.236,"end":18818.333,"text":"基本上你在這個人行道的過程裡面其實你會遇到大量的這個因為機車危停而讓你寸步難行的狀況這是一件事情但另外一件事情是大家常常在各地方遇到打電話報警或各個投訴無人聞問到處踢來踢去的狀況次長還記不記得當時團體反映這個這個情境記得嗎"},{"start":18822.657,"end":18848.972,"text":"我想這個部分我們當然其實我們聽了之後我們自己也覺得這個議題的處理確實我們需要好好的來思考我記得那時候跟我說他可能甚至打電話給警方檢舉了100次都沒有任何人來過幫他把現場的這個這個可能是機車危停的狀況去移除都沒有"},{"start":18851.006,"end":18874.956,"text":"這當然是地方上面執法上面我們看到的真實的狀況回到這一次修法這一次的修法裡面當然我們看到第8條院版第8條裡面他有講到固定設施有一些相關的要求跟處理要求地方政府去處理固定設施一個處理相關的一些程序跟應然該做的作為"},{"start":18876.072,"end":18885.942,"text":"但就像我們剛才說維庭的機車它不是固定設施啊它是非固定的可移動式的障礙物的設施啊那我們針對這個部分"},{"start":18887.438,"end":18913.371,"text":"市長我們怎麼處理當然這個部分是比較屬於執法的那個面向就是我們今天這個有四個那處罰條例當然還是可以處理但是當然市長現在這些條例跟包括你們會回這個廢清法有啊道交條例有啊市區道路條例有啊是啊現在就有啊這些條例現在也有啊不是不存在啊可是一樣這個問題一樣好多縣市都還是這個狀況啊"},{"start":18916.834,"end":18917.635,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":18940.469,"end":18965.93,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":18966.514,"end":18988.364,"text":"市長今天在我們要修這個行人安全設施條例的條文裡面我們自己增加了一個部分是非固定設施的可移動障礙物我們要求地方政府要指定一個專責處理的單位地方政府就指定一個誰來處理類似的事情只要有這個問題的他就要去處理"},{"start":18989.417,"end":18993.261,"text":"我根本不知道實質上我們在訂這個法的時候我們也本來有一個期待是地方對於這個行人安全的這個一所有的事情是應該我們也期待他能夠找出一個"},{"start":19012.116,"end":19012.476,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":19029.726,"end":19043.748,"text":"我們就找他請他來處理我們這個事情可不可以讓我們的因為這背後確實也涉及到地方自治的那個彈性跟權限的是可是我們現在我們訂這個條例的原因就是我們不能再把所有事情推給地方自治了嘛"},{"start":19044.329,"end":19073.243,"text":"我們過去就是因為這些事情我們都說是地方自治所以現在大家才看到這個亂象這一次終於中央有一個態度我們訂了一個法這個條例有一個母法來去要求地方政府你該怎麼做這些工作嘛不是只是在過去那些要點裡面嘛這就是我們不能再推給只是單純的地方自治了嘛所以我們不是說今天我一定要要求你是誰你地方政府自己指定你自己指定你說好就好那大家就找他"},{"start":19074.817,"end":19095.689,"text":"我們會把這個條文放在裡面等一下我們下午修法的時候我們來進一步的討論或者說條文可以怎麼處理但重要的事情是我們希望類似的狀況跟情境在地方政府是有人可以苛責的而不是那些法都有可是最後一樣是推來推去那這是第一點市長等一下我們下午來討論那第二點是最近大家都在討論檢舉的問題市長或者是旁邊陳市長"},{"start":19101.132,"end":19105.634,"text":"我們之前為什麼會討論說要開放更多項目的檢舉,你們還記不記得為什麼?這問題不難啊。那時候就是覺得警力不足啊。"},{"start":19118.188,"end":19146.124,"text":"因為警力不足、執法人量能不足所以當初才覺得說我們是不是開放更多的項目變成讓大家檢舉變得有點像是民眾自救來或者民眾也可以參與來糾正相關的這個交通上面的秩序的問題就是這個原因嘛 對不對那我現在問題啦好那現在假如我們現在說違罪要限縮檢舉現在我們是我們現在的方案是這樣嘛對不對那我們的警力有比過去足嗎"},{"start":19149.52,"end":19169.882,"text":"我們之前之所以有處理這件事情的工具的時候是因為警力不足嘛 對不對我們很清楚那現在我們說違罪、限縮檢舉的時候我覺得任何管理的方法都可以討論但我們必須針對問題嘛所以當初警力不足的這件事情現在有沒有更進一步的克服了嘛"},{"start":19171.815,"end":19182.537,"text":"市長我這邊想把這個問題提出來的意思是說今天假如我們當初的目的很清楚我們是用A方法來處理這個問題我們現在說A方法不好我要換不是不能討論但我原本的問題還在啊"},{"start":19196.92,"end":19224.947,"text":"那請問我從A方法要換成什麼B方法來去處理當初認為警力跟執法量能不足的問題這件事情我認為不管是內政部或交通部也要有個交代跟方案啊不然我們等於放著原本大家憂慮的執法量能不足的問題一樣擺在那個地方啊它一樣還是問題存在啊我們不能只說A方法我覺得不夠好啊那我們面對當時執法量能不足的問題現在有沒有更進一步的方案"},{"start":19227.893,"end":19243.128,"text":"當然這都要持續滾動檢討啦我覺得其實這邊又是兩難的一個困境嘛就是說我們知道A方法當然我們加強了人民的檢舉但是當然它衍生了其他的副作用"},{"start":19243.809,"end":19263.969,"text":"所以這背後是一個平衡的過程所以我這邊其實很理性在討論這個問題是今天大家覺得A方法不夠好有副作用要修正我覺得在討論上我覺得可以討論可是你要拿出替代的方法來去處理我們原本大家覺得那個痛點的問題執法量能不足所以今天我覺得如果下禮拜我們要來討論這個違罪限縮檢舉的事情的時候"},{"start":19267.532,"end":19293.628,"text":"我自己認為內政部恐怕跟交通部恐怕要拿出那你怎麼克服原本說警力不足這個問題那你接下來的方案是什麼我覺得恐怕大家要給個方案來討論那我們才能夠討論把這些事情在一個理性的層次上面找到最佳方案而不是我一定要A一定要B一定要C沒有這個但是至少我們的問題是能夠解決問題嗎那問題是還是存在啊可以嗎市長"},{"start":19298.828,"end":19315.898,"text":"接下來可能在交通委員會或內政委員會來修要處理道交條例我認為到時候交通部跟內政部就要拿出一個方案來去處理當初大家覺得警力不足那你們打算該怎麼辦比方說要不要多聘交通的相關的管理員那這樣願不願意多出一些錢"},{"start":19317.469,"end":19326.136,"text":"我覺得可以討論喔如果中央願意多出一些錢讓地方政府多拼一些來相關做管理跟執法的人員這也是一種方法可是不能擺著這個問題不處理啊"},{"start":19328.943,"end":19356.057,"text":"我覺得類似的方案我希望到時候我們討論到交通條例的時候內政部跟交通部應該共同提出一個具體的做法我覺得才能給大家一個交代才能去說我覺得A方法真的不夠好我純粹開放檢舉真的有一些副作用我覺得這才能進入到理性的討論跟理性的政策規劃可以嗎好謝謝委員我們會積極的來思考來評估怎麼做好謝謝好謝謝我們黃盛翰委員的知情那麼下一位我們的李博義委員"},{"start":19358.803,"end":19359.283,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19377.29,"end":19406.328,"text":"租住中心現在還是花次長這邊持續在推動那高雄市目前針對所有的這些社宅高雄市應該是全國直轄市裡面算推動最多的一個直轄市那這個社會住宅我們在未來推動的過程裡面未來就是進入這個租金還有相關的這些配套不過跟社會住宅有關我覺得今天的議題很重要的是次長來聽一下也很好"},{"start":19408.908,"end":19428.832,"text":"為什麼我們今天的行人安全條例裡面行人交通安全設施條例裡面的第8條為什麼人行道上常常有障礙物為什麼人行道上常常有違規的機車這些問題回歸到最後其實機車沒有位置停"},{"start":19434.636,"end":19460.867,"text":"那高雄市還蠻特別的你說如果要去推動整個市區的人行道或者是騎樓平整這個我們大概來自地方我們大概都知道會遇到非常大的困難當然署長這邊我們可能以專區特定區的方式來推動甚至鼓勵縣市政府地方政府來做這個推動那敢做的地方政府我也不知道有幾個"},{"start":19461.787,"end":19483.602,"text":"但是重點是新的區域確實有機會例如高雄的某一些區域比如說這個商圈附近他確實有大量的這個行人的使用的需求的話這是可以推動所以在未來的這個4年400億裡面以及目前所在推動的社宅住入中心所在推動的社宅裡面"},{"start":19484.002,"end":19486.624,"text":"市長,你知不知道高雄平均一戶有幾台摩托車?"},{"start":19507.987,"end":19508.427,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":19535.64,"end":19554.554,"text":"社會為了檢舉在檢舉這些騎樓或者是人行道上有機車違停的時候請問交通部請問內政部我們有沒有提供足量的機車停車格給這些機車的使用者來請交通部的次長來做一個回應"},{"start":19556.345,"end":19581.312,"text":"我想停車的問題是長期以來很大的問題所以交通部也有在推所謂的前瞻裡頭就有停車場的一個新建那剛才特別提到機車的問題那我的了解機車的問題隨著剛才講的不管是新的都市的開發或建案的一個新建漸漸都已經把它內化到這個大樓裡面了用這樣的方式來"},{"start":19582.652,"end":19608.787,"text":"謝謝市長,我剛剛也要跟花市長講的確實還是不夠啦那所以在外面的這些機車就有可能會在我們人行道上他如果不是在馬路上就有可能是在人行道上尤其高雄這個比較特別尤其署長,署長也來自台南喔台南也是非常特別尤其是越古老的城市他越有這個特性尤其道路小然後沒有地方停車就會造成人行道"},{"start":19609.347,"end":19609.988,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":19630.923,"end":19655.302,"text":"問題是當地就有人說為什麼華夏路要轉到原道這一邊這一邊的就沒有做那這邊沒有做其實在地方政府最困難的原因是什麼是這一個人行道上在新莊一路人行道上他有大量的黑板樹大量的行道樹是使用黑板樹那這些黑板樹他串根的嚴重已經讓剛剛齊昌蔡其昌委員他有說"},{"start":19656.789,"end":19678.304,"text":"我們爸爸媽媽推這個嬰兒車大概沒有辦法推大概要過五關斬六將其實很多長輩要推長輩的輪椅也沒有辦法推到園道為什麼因為長輩們坐在輪椅上推到園道都亂了頭都暈了因為這個不平整所以我們也希望這個國土署這邊針對"},{"start":19681.426,"end":19703.099,"text":"當然地方政府這邊我們也會要求高雄市政府來做這些相關的爭取針對比如說要道圓道的這一些人行道來做一些整理之外這一些行道數我們還是要努力的跟互數團體這邊來溝通適合做行道數或者是不適合做行道數要做一些檢討那也請這個吳署長"},{"start":19704.48,"end":19725.362,"text":"你針對這個臺南市以及高雄市目前的這個人行道普及率以及如果遇到剛所謂我們第8條裡面有明定有固定設施設備行道數算不算要不要來跟地方政府來做一個討論跟委員報告現在目前來講固定物大概最大的問題應該不是行道數"},{"start":19726.964,"end":19738.597,"text":"應該是大概指的是這個電箱電筒那或是在一些路段設計不當但是行道數的部分是這樣的確在過程當中我們要跟相關的這個互輸團體的確要溝通因為"},{"start":19741.4,"end":19741.6,"text":"議員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":19760.566,"end":19786.009,"text":"那行道署當場在中間兩邊各75公分請問怎麼通行這是不是障礙物這是不是要通案的選討來處理應該要可以被檢討去討論這件事情那還有比較細的部分當然這個我們跟地方政府在溝通的時候包含這些公法其實這幾年都有做一些調整越調整越省錢而且越好用目前我們營電署國土署跟高雄市政府配合的"},{"start":19786.81,"end":19803.851,"text":"指導的這一個人行道的專案方案我覺得非常好用那我們也希望江東市政府接下來去爭取到更多的這些人行道的這些設施的時候我們有四年四百億嘛但我認真覺得齁四年來檢討一次太久了"},{"start":19804.352,"end":19821.779,"text":"我們不是把4年的經費這樣撥下來然後4年之後再來檢討還是每年的定期來檢討各縣市政府他執行的這些方案執行的這些效率那不一定是怎樣啦所以做一個公佈每一個縣市當然不一定最高的最好啊"},{"start":19822.699,"end":19846.787,"text":"當然有在推動或者是這個縣市政府對於行人的這些照顧有推動有進步才是我們希望看到的那署長是不是就針對我們這個高雄市以及可能台南市這些人行道的部分障礙物的部分我們針對高雄的部分針對這些行道處的部分我們可以一併跟高雄市政府來做一個檢討討論沒有問題因為高雄市這幾年的確推動的非常積極"},{"start":19851.493,"end":19851.653,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":19875.694,"end":19877.875,"text":"李博弈委員的資訊。那我們下一位我們習曉新習曉新習曉新委員不在那下一位陳冠廷委員"},{"start":19909.445,"end":19909.885,"text":"交通部次長"},{"start":19927.932,"end":19953.822,"text":"我們知道這個行人安全它不是交通的問題而已它等於是一個社會的問題那它需要政府企業社會團體還有每一個公民的共同參與那我今天想先提幾個問題針對交通部跟內政部包括標誌標線的設置標準它這個就是交通部的業務那跟中央地方權責跟預算分配還有民眾參與的部分那可能是內政部"},{"start":19955.363,"end":19961.831,"text":"設置標準交通部何時可以完成中央版本的道路交通標誌標線設置標準"},{"start":19963.943,"end":19986.476,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們有關道路交通標誌標線設置規則這一部分其實現在已經既有的就有了只是目前正在檢討修正對因為根據媒體報導就是要今年才要嚴定修正這個道路交通標誌標線的這個參考質疑那2026年才會提出全國的統一標準這個時程是正確的嗎"},{"start":19993.479,"end":20019.246,"text":"我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員特別提到的那個指引我先簡單的介紹一下我們道路交通標誌標線設置規則是已經既有的那個規則下去了以後因為各單位在實施上有時候會參考國外的這個案例或者是會在設置上有些不一致的地方所以我們在今年開始會請我們運營所來推動所謂設置參考指引的這樣一件工作"},{"start":20020.547,"end":20033.285,"text":"這個工作目前已經正在辦理招標然後我們後續會請運營所來邀請相關的單位共同來討論所以指引的這個部分應該是在2026年前會完成"},{"start":20034.636,"end":20061.849,"text":"應該是說這個指引會隨著這個每一年我們會就一直去檢討一直去檢討他有的機制裡頭會去做相關的一個檢討OK非常感謝因為地方政府他這個我們最近許多一些公聽會或者是一堆跟交通相關的交流會他們常常都談到說地方政府他們歸一的標準有些時候是不一致的那常常會依據自己的標準去施作"},{"start":20062.829,"end":20063.21,"text":"議員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":20092.931,"end":20093.775,"text":"謝謝次長。我們再請內政部的次長"},{"start":20102.902,"end":20126.509,"text":"主要要請教次長的部分因為每個縣市每一個鄉鎮對行人安全的需求還是有它的差異點那特別是都市化的鄉鎮還有或者山區的鄉鎮其實不太一樣你們可不可以簡單跟我們說一下你要怎麼樣確保預算資源能夠分配得以拿到最需要的地區會不會依照它的地形地貌或者是地區的特性做調整"},{"start":20127.608,"end":20149.803,"text":"我想這個部分本質上我們已經都已經除陸續盤點危險的道路或危險的路口這是第一個當然最優先要處理接下來是地方政府會依據他們自己的優先性來提報他們要來改善的區域或者哪一條道路的哪一個段落當然我們會來審查我們會來審查"},{"start":20153.026,"end":20162.177,"text":"會針對這一次是以危險的改善行人的交通安全為主所以說我們在審查上面會以這個面向"},{"start":20163.591,"end":20190.249,"text":"為最優先當然鄉鎮的資源分配他重要但是會跟我們現在討論的行人交通安全的改善的重要性我們還是會做一些拿捏而不是說依人口輸於什麼然後大家就要來分配那樣的錢我想不會完全是用這個邏輯另外今天的報告有提到說這是113年編列4年400億的"},{"start":20192.55,"end":20217.563,"text":"經費來去辦理有序提升行人安全計劃那4年後呢主要我們是想說為什麼不是依照這個每年的需求而是以這個4年做為這樣子的其實交通環境的改善還是需要長期的規劃和構想所以說我們要用一個4年的長期計劃讓地方政府來規劃一步步來而不是說今年有多少錢那我們在想今年這些錢要做哪裡那這樣的話不會"},{"start":20219.555,"end":20247.55,"text":"創造出一個整體改善的效果了解那在草案的條文第10條那我想可能今天也應該不只因為委員有提到他說中央每年考評地方政府的執行成效如果績效不佳要減劣預算額度那其實有不只因為委員提到說這可能是一個會造成惡性循環是不是能夠考慮地方自治法地方制度法的第72條規劃替代裁員的部分這個部分有沒有列入你們的考量"},{"start":20249.17,"end":20271.961,"text":"這個實質上內部也討論了幾次就當然我們希望地方要認真執行啦照計畫來然後預算下去他就認真執行那其實擔憂的是有些地方政府可能因為做這樣的工作就像做下水道一樣有時候就遇到民眾的反彈抗爭民意代表的一些自責等等那怕的就是地方政府遇到這些困難就退縮"},{"start":20273.902,"end":20296.601,"text":"我們當然希望有一個好的讓電話政府不要勇敢、不要退縮的一個壓力當然委員的指導我們會評估看看這麻煩好好想一想因為我們不希望因為你說的他們的退縮導致行人的安全受損到時候中央必須要負起的責任還是該負起再來就是參與的機制"},{"start":20299.663,"end":20322.071,"text":"草案有提到在設置行人友善學要聽當地居民的意見政府要確保民眾的參與之外還是要建立固定的溝通平台還有資料庫跟數據庫也就是說其實在民主社會每一個的意見當然都很重要可是不可能是無限的擴充意見但是如果依照資料庫裡面"},{"start":20323.331,"end":20347.546,"text":"不只一位民眾跟NGO或者是相當的社團或者是公民團體提出來同樣的問題超過幾次之後就必須要列入這個紀錄並且做改善我想這是必要的把它數位化、把它數據化、把它資料固化好不好所以現在已經有民眾已經開始在提案了我們都會把這些紀錄保留下來就不要只做就是看過去參考然後就是為了開公定會的該公定會"},{"start":20348.366,"end":20348.486,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":20370.351,"end":20395.781,"text":"盧明哲委員．盧明哲委員不在李坤誠委員．李坤誠委員．李坤誠委員不在陳培宇委員．陳培宇委員．陳培宇委員不在黃仁委員．黃仁委員．黃仁委員不在丁協宗．丁協宗委員．丁協宗委員不在"},{"start":20396.86,"end":20401.121,"text":"林岳勤委員不在高金素美委員不在林德福委員不在"},{"start":20413.84,"end":20423.065,"text":"林思敏委員不在鄭天才委員不在侯孟楷委員不在張瑞雄委員不在林國成委員不在"},{"start":20440.454,"end":20451.324,"text":"陳素悅陳素悅陳素悅委員不在來下一位就換我了來黃捷來拜託好那我們請吳祁銘委員交委"},{"start":20468.525,"end":20469.65,"text":"主席、同仁"},{"start":20479.363,"end":20500.376,"text":"委員長早上我看行人安全設施條例我看大家都是很支持我們本條例啦至於說我們4年400億錢要怎樣來投入我們地方的人行道的改善尤其人行道大家都知道人行道"},{"start":20501.377,"end":20505.859,"text":"有的是人行道上面我看很多的爭議有的拓寬的範圍以及我們一致性的跟地方的施作有跟我們中央不同調這是我們應該要去解決"},{"start":20517.723,"end":20517.743,"text":"委員會復議"},{"start":20532.657,"end":20555.863,"text":"真的在人行道尤其我們這幾年早上我看那個市制真的我也嚇一跳從去年光是人行道死亡的就有380人更受傷的有17000多人那每年都是居高不下這是我們要去解決所以我們政府才推動"},{"start":20556.543,"end":20558.505,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案"},{"start":20581.389,"end":20602.205,"text":"委員報告行人友善區其實這一次我們這個條例裡面很重要的一個內容那它就是要針對例如說學校周邊醫院周邊車站周邊行人密度很高的區域那這用全區域的行人通道的串接完整為目標來做"},{"start":20603.826,"end":20604.586,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案"},{"start":20625.652,"end":20628.273,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員"},{"start":20652.438,"end":20666.914,"text":"但是因為價值、經驗、觀念落地了之後就可以開始複製到別的地方慢慢去漲所以我覺得這其實是一個很高的、很重要的態度和價值啦我們就這裡來突破、來努力"},{"start":20668.449,"end":20685.207,"text":"因為你說行人友善區,你要劃分,你說在我們的學校周邊我們會優先入段,因為在我本社的村區,在中央路,我們的蔡組長就知道,中央路連行道很小,那中間又有數。"},{"start":20686.492,"end":20707.175,"text":"所以變形你要怎樣去克服但是我也覺得在我們去年我們的中央會撥了經費整人行道拓寬市委把他移開所以你這樣叫我當特地說民眾他們的人行道的安全因為有很多是行人不方便"},{"start":20707.996,"end":20725.752,"text":"有很多有障礙空間所以說還有很多我們過去的法令法條規定沒有一致性有的蓋的比較高有的起落比較低那就凹地不平那常常造成一些老年的民眾都是跌倒因為意外事件"},{"start":20726.392,"end":20748.914,"text":"所以我們要改善你連齊路你要一併把他納入要怎樣的改善整個通道的順暢這是我們未來我們既然要做我們就一定要做好這裏面的各種狀態或工法甚至說剛剛委員提到人行道不足過去因為都是以車型為優先的道路設計"},{"start":20749.835,"end":20750.075,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":20769.44,"end":20769.6,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":20792.871,"end":20793.352,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":20816.294,"end":20832.688,"text":"我期望像雜樹類的他可能會被清理掉但是或許把這些替代進去不管是當作這個做這個這個園區內的這個樹主要到這樹種或是說未來的相關的監獄他所要做的隔離的樹"},{"start":20833.228,"end":20833.808,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":20851.355,"end":20851.855,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":20868.922,"end":20869.402,"text":"拜託請交通部處長時間有限好謝謝"},{"start":20899.29,"end":20916.23,"text":"委員好市長好市長今天有來到我們內政委員會我也請教現在捷運萬大縣明天就要動工了那不足的200億那現在我們的交通部現在整個籌措的計畫現在走到哪裡了"},{"start":20916.93,"end":20946.15,"text":"我跟委員報告原則上因為經費增加了大概220.7億這這麼多那所以整個交通部因為近期也有很多的捷運建設也都遇到相關經費增加的問題所以我們正在研擬一個通案的處理原則但是這個通案處理原則的研擬的過程之中我們也請應該是臺北市趕快把那樣相關的計畫報上來目前正在由我們交通部在審核中"},{"start":20946.79,"end":20947.07,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":20962.025,"end":20962.686,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":20977.878,"end":20982.222,"text":"對阿對阿所以你經院永遠都是要去解決啦好那再來一個案就是我跟交通部部長講的前瞻計畫我們剩餘的要做長湖橋停車場那個長湖停車場應該我們剩餘款應該還有吧"},{"start":20998.078,"end":20998.438,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":21019.367,"end":21022.209,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查⋯⋯"},{"start":21048.591,"end":21066.416,"text":"蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在 下一位張志仁 張志仁 張志仁委員不在再來我們曾振泉 曾振泉 曾振泉委員不在 下一位我們黃捷委員 謝謝"},{"start":21079.534,"end":21084.596,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請內政部次長好內政部次長好次長好因為今天我們要審這個行人安全的設施條例那我覺得還是要從頭根本去看啦因為其實要設這個條例的最根本就是我自己在高雄就發現說各地方的目前的標準啊設施啊其實都非常不一致所以我們希望統一的管理"},{"start":21108.243,"end":21133.988,"text":"但統一的管理之後可不可以有統一的主責機關也非常重要因為其實以高雄來說我們在做這種行人設施的時候因為像我們編這個四年四百億然後高雄就是有很多的學校都去爭取這個通學步道的經費然後呢因為各縣市我就去看了一下各縣市的經驗發現說其實每個縣市在用這一些預算然後在做行人設施跟人行道的時候每個主管機關其實都不一樣"},{"start":21134.428,"end":21150.589,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":21154.151,"end":21169.399,"text":"台灣的交通事故的狀況,這個我就不醉言,真的是行人地獄必須要洗刷,這個是我們共同的目標。那我想先問一下次長,知道說我們現在的台灣的道路的分屬的主管機關大概有幾個嗎?"},{"start":21171.936,"end":21185.589,"text":"從中央當然就是我們交通部跟內政部分別有我們有管轄的範圍那當然到地方政府當然還會有縣市的、鄉鎮的等等不同層次甚至還有農務等等非常複雜"},{"start":21188.812,"end":21214.843,"text":"非常複雜就是如次長所說的這個期待是目前主管機關真的太多了像是我們都市計劃內裡面市區的道路是國土管理署然後對應的法條就是市區道路條例然後如果不是道路計劃的話屬於交通部那這種公路裡面就還分國道、省道、市道、縣道、區道、鄉道專用公路然後法規對應的是公路法那除此之外剛剛有提到農路那農路是歸誰管"},{"start":21217.509,"end":21237.194,"text":"農業部沒有錯那他對應的法規的道路又是另外一個農路的養護的管理要點那我們的林道又是歸誰管是林務局沒錯那這個他們對應道又是林道的管理要點那更不用說水路又是歸經濟部裡面可能如果是河川就是河川的管理要點"},{"start":21237.734,"end":21254.334,"text":"如果是合體就是合體的管理要點也就是說以上我剛剛隨便念我相信大家都已經花掉了太多種類型的道路我們分屬在不同的機關那導致說我們現在道路想要去看他統一的管理規範實在是無從管理起"},{"start":21255.015,"end":21275.93,"text":"所以我是希望說接下來第一個建議就是我們這個主管機關是不是可以盡量的讓他統一事權就例如說像日本他其實非常單純他就是用道路法那道路法用單一的法規裡面就清楚定義說道路有四種種類例如說高速公路國道然後是縣道然後市町村道"},{"start":21276.63,"end":21287.717,"text":"那其實就會讓這個事情單純化然後讓道路法可以統一把所有類型的道路就是一元化那我不知道說次長覺得做這個統一的管理有沒有可能"},{"start":21289.555,"end":21315.881,"text":"當然還是會有分層的問題啦你說國道這麼長從北到南跨越非常多的縣市那當然這一定要中央才有辦法來整體來管理嘛那當然這就是我們在看事情的架構和邏輯啦所以說其實到了地方政府因為過去我們有省道縣道那當然這個部分就會變成到底是地方因為"},{"start":21316.661,"end":21343.139,"text":"看起來如果真的要四旋桶圍要回歸地方因為中央會很奇怪你今天縣市裡面的所有道路都是中央來管會很奇怪我覺得這部分是可以來討論怎麼樣來講話對啊我希望說我們可以開始這個討論那希望說讓這也是回歸到說接下來因為我們既然要做這個行人設施行人設施也是一種類型啦就是從人行道來看未來的道路管理"},{"start":21343.479,"end":21343.499,"text":"議員黃捷"},{"start":21358.447,"end":21385.993,"text":"就要分屬兩種不同的機關然後兩種不同機關的看法不一導致我們同一條路會有兩種的道路設計的標誌這個是我在地方上非常常遇到的希望可以接著處理這個問題再來就回歸到今天的重點就是道路設計的部分因為其實我們過去台灣也因為是歷史的因素所以有一些比較早發展的都市都是先有都市發展後來才有都市計畫所以我們交通的路網是有時候是因為這個"},{"start":21388.273,"end":21403.499,"text":"規範的完所以沒有辦法讓他有一個完整的都市交通的網路然後呢就會常常遇到說有一些是計程道路有一些是計劃道路然後他們互相干擾然後我們政府不知道怎麼處理所以我們在地方上也確實很常遇到這樣的問題那這個其實也連帶的增加行人的風險"},{"start":21407.7,"end":21425.723,"text":"所以我比較想知道的是就是我們接下來應該是不是應該訂一個更具體的規範就是道路安全的設計規範那在我們今天的這個行人安全的條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的一個規範我覺得接下來是不是應該要朝這方向更明確來訂定"},{"start":21427.159,"end":21429.903,"text":"我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有的完整的規範都讓它統一化"},{"start":21443.741,"end":21470.041,"text":"那最後就是其實剛剛都有很多人提到的就是我們現在的這個人行道的普及率實在太低了就是連台北市已經是一個照理說要最完整的地方也普及率也都是60左右那我們高雄市是40幾%50幾%那其實都沒有很高那這個當然是我們接下來訂完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查然後"},{"start":21471.401,"end":21483.647,"text":"規範一步一步讓它普及率增加這是我們共同的目標但是也看到說因為目前我們的規範裡面魔法裡面還是有提到說道路寬度12公尺以下就不用設人行道"},{"start":21485.25,"end":21508.832,"text":"那要不要請說明一下就是我們的道路設計的標準目前預計是怎樣幾公尺以下要設幾公尺以下不用設我跟委員報告啦過去是過去一般來講是8米以下不用啦但是我們這一次的一個新的這樣的一個做法現在就是通通要用指定的方式就即便你是8米以下我們也盡量讓你指定出來"},{"start":21509.471,"end":21538.878,"text":"或許你不一定能做到實體但是你標線型盡可能也做那或是有騎樓的部分騎樓可以代替的話那騎樓就要來讓他暢通我想都透過這些方式來解目標就是全部的道路都可以好沒錯這就是我想問的就是接下來的這些到底是不是有辦法在現有的道路之下讓他都盡量長出人行道這個是接下來非常重要的目標那希望這個我們也把相關的規範那再給我一個書面的答覆可以嗎"},{"start":21539.518,"end":21540.819,"text":"謝謝我們黃捷委員的諮詢。再來請我們吳佩儀委員諮詢。謝謝主席,我請內政部發出長。"},{"start":21569.663,"end":21593.872,"text":"市長好,我們內政部提出行人交通安全設施條例草案我想國人都相當期待因為我們都希望我們的行人安全不只是一個口號尤其是在基礎建設上面我們可以盡速的來進行改善那過去因為我在台北市擔任市議員所以我對台北市的行人安全也一直很重視那其中呢,曾經我一上任之後就開始來調查"},{"start":21595.313,"end":21599.017,"text":"因為我說非常多民眾跟我反映說很多人行道非常的窄連一台的這個娃娃車可能都推不過去但是在我們內政部我們是有秩序到人行道設計準則的我們最低限度人行道近寬就是不得低於0.9公尺喔"},{"start":21614.255,"end":21622.502,"text":"但是次長你知道嗎即便是在台北市截至目前為止我們還有近500處甚至以上的人行道它的寬度是低於0.9近寬的我們最理想的應該是要1.5喔你是有特殊因為道路的情況你要主管經關專案核可才可以0.9我們既然連這麼低度的要求0.9台北市都還有這麼多處達不到"},{"start":21639.396,"end":21643.558,"text":"更嚴重的是當我們越開始質詢之後才發現原來市政府已經超過10年並沒有進行道路全面的盤查了人行道所以其實我們應該準確的這樣說截至目前為止我們並不知道台北市到底還有多少的人行道盡快是低於0.9公尺的"},{"start":21657.307,"end":21660.909,"text":"但是因為我們地方議會的要求所以臺北市政府已經展開一個三年度的這個全面盤查的計畫我們希望逐年至少你要把改善的點要幾處要先調查出來所以說我們現在這個草案如果通過的話這未來我們有沒有明定地方政府有明確的這個職責必須第一個要去盤查"},{"start":21679.978,"end":21698.373,"text":"到底在我們的市區裡面有哪些的人行道是還沒有符合目前的要求的以及要如何改善假設這個調查出來上面仍然是有這些障礙物我們現在是有要求要限期排除嘛 對不對那假設沒有限期排除呢有沒有法則有"},{"start":21700.709,"end":21710.293,"text":"我們目前是第一個我們有沒有明確來訂定這是地方政府機關有這樣的職責有沒有我們有在現在的草案裡面有罰則是所以我們通過之後未來各縣市政府都必須要來主動不需要像我們台北市過去一樣要議會要求市府才做我們草案通過是不是各縣市的地方政府都要主動來開始進行這個人行道的近寬或是安全的盤查"},{"start":21727.901,"end":21752.996,"text":"根本報告我們現在當然是以鼓勵補助地方來進行盤查因為你全面盤查即使盤查完我們改善的量能也是有一定的幅度嘛所以說我們會鼓勵他盡量去盤查但是重點是畫設出最優先要改善的路段、區域讓我們分年來執行讓這個資料、Data跟計畫跟預算"},{"start":21755.617,"end":21755.978,"text":"．則不予審查 ．則不予審查"},{"start":21778.317,"end":21802.679,"text":"所以我也希望我們內政部以及交通部主要內政部要來協助我們地方政府來進行改善的設施我看了一下我們有永續提升人行安全計畫對地方政府進行補助我們內政部主要補助是都會區總共有600多件其中我們台北市有沒有我們內政部有沒有來協助台北市的這個永續提升人行安全計畫"},{"start":21803.84,"end":21808.181,"text":"我們台北市合併了199件那也就是說佔了我們這個總共三分之一嘛三分之一的案件是來自於台北市那這一點我必須要給內政部肯定但我也希望你們能夠再去追蹤了解這些這個合併的案件它後續的執行的狀況"},{"start":21826.465,"end":21853.657,"text":"因為呢其實上我們過去我們內政部也是有運用我們前瞻基礎建設的預算來對地方政府的行人交通基礎設施進行補助的以我選區來說其實在我們立法院旁邊這個中消東路的人行環境改善我記得是當年核定的第一案那當時呢我有到現場去會談什麼原因呢因為我們在這個工程的當中呢他有牽涉到原先的路數"},{"start":21854.998,"end":21859.181,"text":"但是這個我們地方政府在執行的時候因為我們路數如果是要移除也是有相關的規範的那當地的這個附近的社區的民眾從小看到大的老樹也沒有人告訴他們為什麼也沒有人告訴他們什麼時候突然這個樹就被移走了"},{"start":21872.029,"end":21888.232,"text":"所以說當我們向民眾來進行說明的時候因為行人安全的改善民眾都是很支持的大家也可以理解然後我們這個遷移的過程也要去符合相關的規範所以我希望你們後續也要去追究最後一點我想要請教部長我們這個集團有一個民眾參與的提案要讓民眾來票選優先改善入口但我沒有看到這個票選的這個細則規範我們除了票選之外民眾參與還有沒有其他的機制"},{"start":21901.295,"end":21921.739,"text":"我們請署長來說明好不好簡單說明就可以了簡單就是說因為有些我們希望民眾來提出來哪些最需要是那是說票數越多的我們就優先改善嗎還是我們有其他鬼的評估機制各區域裡面都會去挑也就是說我們會拿它來比對地方政府的提案你有沒有把民眾最在意的先放進去因為貴台北市iVoting也曾經發生慘案"},{"start":21925.14,"end":21939.09,"text":"所以我希望票選民眾參與很重要但是我們要多軌相關的評估機制民眾參與的精神是有很多方式的那票選是其中一種要請你們可以多注意好謝謝我們吳佩瑜委員的資訊好謝謝"},{"start":21947.093,"end":21974.932,"text":"那登記發言委員除不在場之外：其已經已發言完畢：行打結束那委員陳樹葉：以及委員魯明哲：委員黃仁：委員劉建國：委員林國成：委員張志倫：委員丁學忠：委員林業勤：所提四面執行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":21977.311,"end":21998.791,"text":"市面執行和為答覆的部分請相關單位一周以內以市面答覆並互知本會。主席我先來休息5分鐘,休息後我們繼續審查法案。好,謝謝先讓他休息5分鐘,大家站起來去"},{"start":22547.87,"end":22564.148,"text":"報告委員會我們現在進行我們的法案審查請先讀我們討論的四項所提的條文我們的修正動議以及附帶決議請一併先讀先讀完畢後再進行協商"},{"start":22571.044,"end":22589.357,"text":"行政院提案法名稱《行人交通安全設施條例》委員黃捷等16人提案法名稱同行政院提案行政院提案第一條為建設、改善及維護行人交通安全設施建立以人為本行人動線連續性集物障礙用路環境特制定本條例委員黃捷等16人提案第一條"},{"start":22590.197,"end":22609.601,"text":"為推動交通臨死亡願景營造人本交通之安全用路環境特制定本條例委員黃捷等16人提案第二條本條例所稱行人交通安全設施指道路管理機關設置用以引導及防護行人行進之各種設施設備包括依道路地平面供行人行走或穿越道路之地方包括人行道及行人穿越道"},{"start":22610.061,"end":22625.142,"text":"二、道路支援實車阻攔、竿、池、槽、濾離、護欄、護牆、交通桿、庇護島、交通島。三、屬於道路上各項標誌、標証、號誌、設施、設備等。四、路燈防汛設施、反射鏡、反光導標、危險標記路面。五、路面減速設施。"},{"start":22626.644,"end":22651.785,"text":"六、其他經中央主管機關核定設施及設備本條例所稱行人優先區是指經公告劃定以行人步行優先並設置專用標誌及車輛減速設施之路段行政院提案第二條本條例用此定義如下一、行人交通安全設施指人行道行人穿越道引導行人行進防護行人安全提醒行人注意及具無障礙功能之設施設備二、行人友善區指經公告設置提供行人動線連續之無障礙步行環境並"},{"start":22655.147,"end":22675,"text":"管制車輛使用行為之區域委員黃捷等16人提案第三條本條例用詞定義如下一交通臨死亡願景達到交通事故臨死亡及重傷的目標二人本交通交通系統之規劃管理以人為本位營造安全友善可靠舒適健康的永續交通環境三道路指公路街道巷弄廣場"},{"start":22676.121,"end":22700.307,"text":"其樓、走廊或其他公眾通行之地方、四人行道、職位專工行人通行之其樓、走廊及劃設工行人行走之地面道路與人行天橋及人行地下道五行人穿越道指在道路上以標線劃設工行人穿越道路之地方六道路管理機關指依法辦理道路修築改善及養護事項之政府機關構或該土地建築物所有權人使用人或管理人"},{"start":22701.047,"end":22728.916,"text":"行政院提案第三條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為內政部在指向市為指向市政府在縣市為縣市政府委員黃捷等16人提案第四條第一項同行政院提案第三條第二三項分別為本條例所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌者由各目的事業主管機關辦理前二項主管機關及各目的事業主管機關全責劃分如下一主管機關行人空間規劃建設管理及監督等事項"},{"start":22729.736,"end":22758.835,"text":"二、都計建設公路建築主管機關、行人車輛及大眾運輸工具、場站等交通總體環境規劃與相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項。三、交通主管機關、交通工具、交通設施與路邊停車場之規劃推動及監督等事項。四、警政主管機關、道路交通管理處法條例執法事項。五、教育主管機關、道路交通安全教育支援懲培預及課程推動等事項。六、其他行人權益保障措施由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權"},{"start":22761.257,"end":22783.006,"text":"規劃辦理。 行政院提案第4條中央主管機關應會同中央各目的事業主管機關擬定行人交通安全設施推動計劃並至少每4年檢討修正一次。前項推動計劃應包含下列項目醫院及目標二行人交通安全設施改善政策三行人交通安全設施必要改善項目四計劃效指標五計劃經費六計劃效益器管考措施。"},{"start":22783.706,"end":22812.302,"text":"委員黃捷等16人提案第5條中央主管機關常理下列事項一、制定定行人交通安全設施改善推動計畫二、研擬行人交通安全設施之設計管理及維護規範三、督導地方主管機關辦理行人步行環境安全及便利性改善調查四、研議行人交通安全有關行動、行為和刑期風險等介紹指標五、編列經費補助直轄市縣市政府辦理道路一定寬度人行道分年分期建設計畫及行人交通安全設施改善計畫"},{"start":22813.303,"end":22832.763,"text":"多處直轄市縣市政府落實執行及辦理評鑒六、協助辦理交通安全教育及相關交通安全懸導與訓練其其他有關全國性行人交通安全設施之事項行政院請案第五條直轄市縣市主管機關依依前條行人交通安全設施推動計劃擬定行人交通安全設施改善計劃並每年公佈執行情形"},{"start":22833.704,"end":22861.063,"text":"前向行人交通安全設施改善計劃應包含下列項目一、人行道及行人穿越道之增設、拓寬或改善二、人行道及行人穿越道障礙之排除三、行人交通安全設施之改善四、行人友善區之公告設置及實施五、其他經中央主管機關指定之項目此下四、縣市主管機關應對都市計劃區域內一定寬度以上道路未設人行道者擬定分年分期建設計劃報請中央主管機關核定優先實施改善並至少每四年檢討修正一次"},{"start":22862.423,"end":22877.972,"text":"委員黃捷等16人提案第7條地方主管機關應辦理道路一定寬度人行道分年分期建設計劃及行人交通安全設施改善計劃其規劃設計及改善原則如下依人行道及行人穿越道之寬度保留應優先於車道及汽機車停車格"},{"start":22879.193,"end":22897.231,"text":"二、人行道及行人穿越道應排除障礙物。三、人行道應以實體分隔為優先。四、行人穿越道達一定長度者應增設庇護島。五、路口應提供安全停等空間。行政院提案第6條指下事先是主管機關執行行人交通安全設施改善計劃應辦理步行環境調查擬定優先順序辦理改善"},{"start":22898.011,"end":22912.288,"text":"委員黃捷等16人提案第6條地方主管機關長禮下列事項一、辦理行人步行環境安全及便利性改善調查並嚴明改善對策二、制定定道路一定寬度人行道分年分期建設計劃報請中央核定並落實執行及改善缺失"},{"start":22913.048,"end":22929.457,"text":"三致定定行人交通安全設施改善計劃報請中央和定兵落實執行及改善缺失四劃定行人優先區五劃定專區執行行人空間檢核與改造措施或計劃六執行管理考核機制及加長人員宣導訓練七其他有關地方主管機關行人交通安全設施之事項"},{"start":22930.337,"end":22951.644,"text":"行政院提案第7條指向市縣市主管機關應就醫療院所學校機關大眾藝術場站等行人密集場所周邊公告指定範圍為行人友善區報請中央主管機關備查後逐年辦理改善新市政開發區段徵收市地重劃整體開發新P地區應規劃施作行人友善區指向市縣市主管機關公告行人友善區前應舉辦說明會聽取當地居民意見"},{"start":22953.585,"end":22970.766,"text":"行人友善區應提供行人動線連續之五障礙步行環境並管制車輛使用行為區內道路除設置人行道外得採取速限標誌或標寫將速措施時段性行人徒步區行人優先區或其他方式提供步行環境委員黃捷等16人提案第8條"},{"start":22971.787,"end":22999.767,"text":"地方主管機關依依行人步行環境安全及便利性改善調查結果公告劃定行人優先區其劃定原則如下依交通量小或避免通過行車流進入之路段二人行道設置困難之狹窄巷道三其他應以行人為優先之路段進入行人優先區應遵守下列事項依區內道路與行人具優先性二行人可使用道路之案全部範圍三棲計車駕駛應以緩速通過以保障行人安全四禁止暗明喇叭五危及行人安全之道路使用行為"},{"start":23000.828,"end":23025.373,"text":"行政院提案第8條指向事先是主管機關查有妨礙行人通行之固定設施設備應以書面通知該管管理機關構所有權人使用人或管理人與規定期限完成該設施設備之改善遷移或拆除前項固定設施設備屬於原同域設置之公用事業設施設備主管機關應協助規劃適合之方式或地點辦理設施設備之改善遷移或拆除第一項期限不得少於3個月"},{"start":23026.013,"end":23052.926,"text":"行政院提案第9條建築物其樓及屋遮掩人行到地平面未予臨接地平面及平者直轄市縣市主管機關得指定路段統一重修前向地平面經直轄市縣市主管機關統一重修後因擅自改建之不合市區道路及附屬工程設計標準或妨礙行人通行者直轄市縣市主管機關應以書面通知該建築物所有群人使用人或管理人期限限期於2個月內改善委員黃捷等16人提案第9條"},{"start":23053.786,"end":23072.944,"text":"中央及地方主管機關應選擇機關、醫療院所、運動中心、活動中心、學校、廟城、廣場、公園、兒童遊戲區、大眾運輸站點、商業中心等周邊行人空間規劃專區,配合辦理相關補助計劃,公告實施行人空間檢核與改造措施或計劃,傾向專區之行人空間通行檢核項目及設計規範由內政部定之。"},{"start":23075.066,"end":23090.718,"text":"行政院提案第10條中央主管機關因會同交通部明年考評及公布各指甲市縣市主管機關行人交通安全設施改善計劃之執行成效各指甲市縣市主管機關年度考評績效不佳者中央主管機關及交通部得簡列相關道路交通改善計劃之補助額度"},{"start":23091.458,"end":23120.498,"text":"委員黃捷等16人提案第10條地方主管機關應訂定道路一定寬度人行道分年分期建設計劃及行人交通安全設施改善計劃設定年度執行績效目標並落實執行地方主管機關每年應將前一年度所詳行人空間建設及改善情形績效指標完成情形渡島考核成績等作成報告提送該管道路交通安全匯報審議通過後公告周知中央主管機關應對前項各地方主管機關所提年度績效內容向中央道路交通安全匯報"},{"start":23121.258,"end":23144.868,"text":"提出報告及評比將成建議對於考評績效不佳者得於次年檢列該計劃補助款行政院提案第11條 會議第8條第一項規定期限完成改善遷移或拆除者由直轄市縣市主管機關處該管管理機關構所有群人使用人或管理人新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰委員黃捷等16人提案第11條"},{"start":23145.848,"end":23170.967,"text":"因工程施工養護或管理不周致造成行人動線阻塞中斷各級主管機關得處該管道路管理機關該項組工程組辦機關購管縣事業機構或起造人新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還並得按次連續處罰行政院提案第12條會議第9條第二項規定期限完成改善者由職商市縣市主管機關處該建築物所有權人使用人或管理人新台幣5000元以上25000元以下罰還並得按次處罰"},{"start":23173.929,"end":23192.623,"text":"委員黃捷等16人提案第12條第9條專區之騎樓或私人土地與行人空間改造措施或計劃公告實施完成後因擅自改建制造成阻塞者直轄市縣市主管機關以書面通知勒令該土地建築物所有權人使用人或管理人拆除障礙物並處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰款"},{"start":23193.423,"end":23218.139,"text":"第一項專居其農或私人土地地平面應擅自改建之不合工程設計標準者之下是限制主管機關應以書面通知該土地建築物所有權人使用人或管理人限其於二個月內自行改善違反前項規定無謂遵其自行改善完成者處心臺幣五千元以上二萬五千元以下罰還並得按月連續處罰至其完成改善為止委員黃捷等16人提案第14條"},{"start":23219.52,"end":23228.765,"text":"於第9條公告之專區內有汽車駕駛人、慢車駕駛人或行為人有下類行為者亦道路交通管理處罰條例第40條、第41條、第44條、第1項、第45條、第1項、第55條、第1項、第56條、第1項、第73條、第1項、第74條、第1項、第82條、第1項規定罰還最高額處罰之一汽車駕駛人行車速度超過規定之最高時速二汽車駕駛人按名喇叭不依規定或超過規定音量"},{"start":23246.01,"end":23257.12,"text":"三、汽車駕駛人行經未設行車管制號誌之行人穿越到位減速慢行四、汽車駕駛人未依標誌標線號誌指示減速慢行五、汽車駕駛人行經設有停車再開標誌停標誌或閃光紅燈號誌之交叉路口不依規定停讓"},{"start":23261.664,"end":23277.678,"text":"六、七車駕駛人在人行道、行人穿越道、快車道臨時停車。七、七車駕駛人在機場、車站、碼頭、學校、娛樂、展覽、競技、市場或其他公共場所出入口或消防栓之前停車。八、慢車駕駛人不服從執行交通勤務警察之指揮或不依標誌標線號之指示。"},{"start":23279.5,"end":23306.818,"text":"九、慢車駕駛人不依規定停放車輛。 十、慢車駕駛人在人行道或快車道行駛。 十一、慢車駕駛人行經行人穿越道有行人穿越或行駛至交叉路口轉彎時,未讓行人優先通行,及於設置有必要之標誌或標線供慢車行駛之人行道上,未讓行人優先通行。 十二、行為人在道路堆積至設置或拋置,足以妨礙交通之務。 十三、行為人三次設置或變更道路交通標誌、標線號誌或其類似指標式。"},{"start":23309.56,"end":23335.948,"text":"委員黃捷等16人提案第13條依本條例所處罰還經限期繳納預期未繳納者以送法院強制執行行政院提案第13條本條例施行細則由中央主管機關會同交通部定之委員黃捷等16人提案第15條本條例施行細則由中央主管機關定之行政院提案第14條本條例施行日期由行政院定之委員黃捷等16人提案第16條本條例自公佈日施行"},{"start":23337.873,"end":23362.57,"text":"修正動議第一案委員林俊憲所提修正動議第一條增加並提升道路交通安全等文字其餘同行政院提案第二條第一款後段增加常態性或臨時性等文字其餘同行政院提案第七條第一項增加商圈等文字其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":23368.049,"end":23383.639,"text":"第二案委員黃生漢所提修正動議第一條增加並落實管理及考核機制等文字區域同行政院提案第三項至第五項分別為前項行人交通安全設施推動計劃之擬定與檢討應納入專家學者及民間團體之參與討論"},{"start":23394.145,"end":23414.511,"text":"中央及地方政府機關構、公立學校及公營事業機構提供公眾通行之行人空間由其管理單位養護。直轄市縣市政府應指定專責單位每年考核、養護及改善情形。中央主管機關每年評鑒各直轄市縣市政府執行績效並將評鑒及考核結果列為年度將成依據。"},{"start":23416.926,"end":23439.021,"text":"第五條 第一項後段增加設定執行績效目標納入年度道路交通安全執行計劃並落實執行報請中央主管機關備查並公布之 並增加第四項為本條行人交通安全設施改善計劃及一定寬度以上道路未設人行道者之分年分期建設計劃與擬定與檢討過程中應納入專家學者及民間團體之意見與討論其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":23447.031,"end":23454.962,"text":"第7條第一項增加托嬰中心幼兒園公園兒童遊戲場市場等文字其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":23456.618,"end":23484.071,"text":"第8條第一項為持霞市縣市政府應指定專責機關依下列情形排除行人交通安全設施之阻塞情況以維持其連續性及通暢性一道路交通管理處法條例第82條及第82條之一或廢棄物清理法排除路上非固定式之可移動障礙物二一市區道路條例第16條規定勒令拆除擅自建築之非屬道路附屬工程及附設設施者"},{"start":23488.066,"end":23499.852,"text":"第二項前段為直轄市縣市指定之專責機關其餘同行政院提案第一項第三項第四項同行政院提案第二項第三項"},{"start":23501.55,"end":23520.339,"text":"第10條,第一項為執霞市及縣市政府每年應將前一年度所霞行人空間建設及改善情形、績效指標完成情形、督導考核成績等以書面報告提送該管道路、交通安全彙報、審議通過並公告。第二項第三項同行政院提案之第一項第二項"},{"start":23526.087,"end":23553.542,"text":"第三案委員王美惠所提修正動議第九條第一項同行政院提案第一項第二項後段改為限期於二個月內自行改善第三項為前項自行改善費用建築物所有權人、使用人或管理人有自立困難時持下市縣市主管機關應與該建築物所有權人、使用人或管理人共同負擔工程費統一重修"},{"start":23558.442,"end":23580.883,"text":"第4案委員王美惠所提修正動議第一條為建設改善及維護行人交通安全設施營造以人為本質安全用路環境建構行人動線連續性及符合通用性設計之無障無礙通行空間特制定本條例第二條第一款同行政院提案之第一款第二款"},{"start":23582.54,"end":23610.496,"text":"第二款第三款分別為二行人優先區只經公告設置以行人步行優先提供動線連續且符合通用性設計之無礙通行環境並設置專用標誌及管制車輛使用行為之區域三通用性設計只在最大程度上適合每一個人使用之設施設備具備公平使用使用彈性容易操作資訊清楚允許誤差審理尺寸與空間合一等特性"},{"start":23612.742,"end":23631.746,"text":"第三條第三項第一款為主管機關行人交通安全設施規劃建設管理維護改善及監督等事項其餘同委員黃捷等16人提案至第四條第四條第一項第135款分別為"},{"start":23641.96,"end":23665.933,"text":"一、制定電行人交通安全設施推動計劃三、督導直轄市縣市主管機關辦理行人步行環境安全及便利性改善調查五、編列經費補助直轄市縣市政府辦理一定寬度以上道路設置人行道分年分級建設計劃及行人交通安全設施推動計劃督促直轄市縣市政府落實執行及辦理評鑑"},{"start":23668.692,"end":23690.701,"text":"其餘同委員黃捷等16人所提案第5條第二項為前項第一款推動計劃應會同中央各目的事業主管機關擬定每4年檢討修正一次並包含下列項目以下7款同行政院提案第4條第二項第一款至第7款"},{"start":23693.188,"end":23716.113,"text":"第5條指瑕市縣市主管機關長理下列事項一、辦理行人步行環境安全及便利性改善調查並擬定優先順序辦理改善對策二、制定定一定寬度以上道路設置人行道分辨分期建設計畫報請中央核定並落實執行及改善缺失三、制定定行人交通安全設施改善計畫報請中央核定並落實執行及改善缺失"},{"start":23716.933,"end":23733.803,"text":"公告設置行人優先區執行行人空間檢核與改造措施或計劃執行管理考核機制及加強人員宣導訓練其他經中央主管機關指定有關直轄市縣市主管機關行人交通安全設施之事項前項第二款分年分期建設"},{"start":23735.964,"end":23749.772,"text":"計劃及第三款行人交通安全設施改善計劃因每年公布執行情形、績效指標完成情形、督導考核成績等作成報告提送該管道路交通安全匯報審議通過後公告周知"},{"start":23750.672,"end":23773.009,"text":"第6條前條分年分期建設計劃及行人交通安全設施改善計劃之規劃設計及改善原則如下一人行道及行人穿越道之寬度保留應優先於車道及汽汽車停車格二人行道及行人穿越道應排除障礙物三人行道應以實體分隔為優先四行人穿越道達一定長度者應增設庇護島五路口應提供安全停等空間"},{"start":23774.229,"end":23793.824,"text":"第8條直轄市縣市主管機關應就機關醫療院所學校吐音中心幼兒園短期補習班課後照顧班及中心公園兒童遊戲場大眾運輸站點等周邊行人空間公告指定範圍為行人優先據報警中央主管機關被查後逐年辦理改善"},{"start":23794.404,"end":23819.479,"text":"新市政開發區段徵收市地重劃整體開發新品地區應規劃施作行人優先區直轄市縣市主管機關公告行人優先區及其行人空間檢核與改造措施或計劃前應舉辦說明會聽取當地居民意見前向專區之選擇與規劃及其行人空間檢核與改造措施或計劃之實施變更與取消應以適當方式公告上網"},{"start":23820.439,"end":23848.903,"text":"行人優先具應提供動線連續且符合通用性設計之無礙通行環境並設置專用標誌及管制車輛使用行為區內道路處設置人行道外德採取速限標誌或標線降速措施時段性行人徒步區或其他方式提供步行第九條第三項為第一項期限不得少於三個月但應於一年內改善其餘同行政院提案第八條第十條從同行政院提案第九條"},{"start":23851.69,"end":23867.459,"text":"第11條同行政院提案第10條第12條同行政院提案第11條並修正引用條次第13條同行政院提案第12條並修正引用條次第14條同委員黃捷等16人提案第13條第15條"},{"start":23873.792,"end":23883.418,"text":"與第8條公告之優先區內有汽車駕駛人、慢車駕駛人或行為人有下列行為者依道路交通管理處罰條例第40條、第41條、第43條、第1項、第44條、第1項、第45條、第1項、第55條、第1項、第56條、第1項、第73條、第1項、第74條、第1項、第82條、第1項規定罰還最高額處罰之一、汽車駕駛人行車速度超過規定之最高時速二、汽車駕駛人按名喇叭不依規定或超過規定音量"},{"start":23901.75,"end":23909.86,"text":"三、汽車駕駛人在道路煞車行或以其他危險方式駕車四、汽車駕駛人行車速度超過規定之最高時速40公里"},{"start":23911.505,"end":23933.361,"text":"五、汽車駕駛人任意以迫近驟然變換車道或其他不當方式迫使他車讓道。六、汽車駕駛人非遇突發狀況在行駛途中任意驟然減速、剎車或於車道中暫停。七、汽車駕駛人拆除消音器或以其他方式造成噪音。八、汽車駕駛人行進未設行車管制號誌之行人穿越道未減速慢行。"},{"start":23934.693,"end":23952.453,"text":"第9款至第18款同委員黃捷等16人提案第14條之第4款至第13款。第16條同行政院提案第13條。第17條本條例自公佈日施行。"},{"start":23964.176,"end":23981.93,"text":"修正動議五委員徐欣盈所提修正動議第一條增加第二項本條例未規定者適用其他法令規定其餘同行政院提案第二條第一款為"},{"start":23983.775,"end":23997.389,"text":"行人交通安全設施指人行道行人穿越道及引導行人行進防護行人安全提醒行人注意或具無障礙功能之設施設備其餘同行政院提案第三條同行政院提案"},{"start":24004.502,"end":24026.195,"text":"第4條第一項為中央主管機關因會商、中央各路地事業主管機關及各地方主管機關擬定行人交通安全設施推動計劃並至少每二年檢討修正一次第二項第三款為行人交通安全設施重點改善項目及優先順序其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":24027.376,"end":24045.243,"text":"第5條指向市縣市主管機關因應前條行人交通安全設施推動計劃擬定每年度行人交通安全設施改善計劃並擬定其公佈執行情形前向行人交通安全設施改善計劃應包含下列項目以行人交通安全設施之增設拓寬改善與障礙者排除"},{"start":24045.743,"end":24062.722,"text":"二十年友善區執公告設施實施與增設改善三計畫績效指標經費效益與管考四其他經中央主管機關指定之項目指瑕市縣市主管機關應對都市計畫區域內一定寬度以上道路未設人行道者擬定分年分期建設計畫"},{"start":24064.704,"end":24082.749,"text":"報請中央主管機關核定優先於補助實施改善並至少每2年檢討修正一次。前項一定寬度標準於中央主管機關定之。第6條直轄市縣市主管機關規劃擬定行人交通安全設施改善計劃前應辦理步行環境調查擬定優先順序辦理改善。"},{"start":24083.469,"end":24111.61,"text":"第7條第一項為直轄市縣市主管機關應就醫療院所學校機關大眾藝術場站重要商圈等行人密集場所周邊公告指定範圍為行人友善區逐年辦理改善並報請中央主管機關被查第一項為直轄市縣市主管機關公告行人友善區前因舉辦說明會提取當地居民與機關構議件第三項同行政院提案第二項第四項同行政院提案第四項"},{"start":24115.475,"end":24123.027,"text":"第8條第一項前段為直轄市縣市主管機關查有妨礙行人通行之緣同意固定設施設備第三項為"},{"start":24127.236,"end":24154.669,"text":"第一項期限不得超過一年其餘同行政院提案第九條第一項同行政院提案第一項第二項明請上帝平面經指甲式縣市主管機關統一重修後擅自改建或破壞者指甲式縣市主管機關應以書面通知該建築物所有權人使用人或管理人限取於一個月內改善預期未改善完成時地方主管機關應應行政執行法第29條處理"},{"start":24156.77,"end":24182.944,"text":"第10條第二項前段為各職轄市縣市主管機關年度考評執行補助計劃績效不佳者其餘同行政院提案第11條案次處罰改為案月連續處罰其餘同行政院提案第12條案次處罰改為案月連續處罰其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":24183.624,"end":24194.995,"text":"第13條本條例施行細則由中央主管機關會商交通部定之第14條本條例施行日期由行政院自公布後6個月內施行修正動議6"},{"start":24197.27,"end":24222.139,"text":"委員賴玉珍所提修正動議第5條第一項第三項同行政院提案第二項為人行道及行人穿越道之增設拓寬或改善因人行道及行人穿越道之增設拓寬或改善人行道之寬度保留應優先於車道及汽機車停車格其寬度扣除道路設施障礙物外應為1.5米近寬度以上"},{"start":24222.859,"end":24235.098,"text":"二、路寬8米以上的道路應設置實體人行道設施其餘道路應設置標線型人行道第三款至第六款同行政院提案第一項第二款至第五款"},{"start":24236.38,"end":24264.105,"text":"第10條增加第3項為因工程施工、養護施工及養護單位因設立臨時人行道其寬度扣除道路設施障礙物外因為應盡寬度以上並考慮行人探案規劃無障礙空間其餘同行政院提案。第11條罰緩改為5萬元以上30萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":24266.513,"end":24291.181,"text":"第12條第一項罰緩改為一萬元以上十五萬元以下其餘同行政院提案增加第二項違反第十條第三項規定各級主管機關得處該道路管理機關該項工程主辦機關購貨管縣事業機構新台幣三萬元以上十五萬元以下罰緩並限期改善若未改善得連續處罰"},{"start":24296.224,"end":24312.017,"text":"修正動議期委員舒巧慧所提修正動議第一條增加與行人動線連續性文字後面增加安全二字區域通行政院提案第九條增加第三項第四項分別為第一項情形"},{"start":24312.637,"end":24328.215,"text":"公司由土地處所之所有人使用人或管理人不得規避妨礙或拒絕進行第一項重修之方式通知補償之條件基準及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之其餘同行政院提案第十條"},{"start":24330.421,"end":24347.991,"text":"第二項後段修正為得命各直轄市縣市主管機關性企改善予其人不作為者得代行處理增加第三項前項關於性企改善及代行處理之事項準用地方制度法第76條之規定其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":24349.631,"end":24365.454,"text":"修正動議八委員黃建斌所提修正動議第一條為建設改善及維護行人交通安全設施及行友善區建立以人為本質安全及無障礙用路環境特制立本條例第二條"},{"start":24367.489,"end":24393.003,"text":"本條例用此定義如下:「一、行人交通安全設施指人行道、行人穿越道及其他具引導行人行進防護行人安全提醒行人注意及具無障礙功能或其他經中央主管機關核定設施設備。二、行人有善據指提供行人使用之無障礙步行環境並管制車輛使用行為之區域。」第四條增加第三項為"},{"start":24395.586,"end":24405.884,"text":"前向計劃經費由中央主管機關匡列預算補助直轄市縣市政府辦理其餘同行政院提案第5條直轄市縣市主管機關因應"},{"start":24408.55,"end":24424.695,"text":"因依《行人交通安全設施推動計劃》擬定《行人交通安全設施改善計劃》並於每年2月底前於該機關網站公布執行情形。《行人交通安全設施改善計劃》亦包含下列項目"},{"start":24425.755,"end":24445.812,"text":"一、人行道行人穿越道及友善身心障礙者設施之設置改善及維護二、人行道及行人穿越道障礙之排除三、行人交通安全設施之改善四、行人友善區之公告設置及實施五、計劃預算執行情況六、其他經政院主管機關指定之項目"},{"start":24446.753,"end":24472.171,"text":"都市計劃區域內一定寬度以上道路未設置人行道者指責是縣市主管機關一一行人交通安全設施改善計劃中一併擬定分年分期設置計劃報請中央主管機關核定優先實施改善並至少每四年檢討修正一次第三項都市計劃區域內一定寬度以上道路未設人行道自認定標準由中央主管機關匯商、內地事業主管機關定之"},{"start":24473.132,"end":24482.6,"text":"第6條後段增加並以網際網路或其他適當方法廣泛周知其餘同行政院提案第7條"},{"start":24485.714,"end":24507.211,"text":"第一項同行政院提案第一項第二項為依前項規定公告指定範圍為行人友善區前之下是縣市主管機關應舉辦說明會聽取當地居民意見並於適當處所公告30日公告期滿實施之第三項後段增加不是用前兩項之規定等文字其餘同行政院提案第二項"},{"start":24508.939,"end":24531.924,"text":"第四項為行人友善區內除設置人行道外未提供安全之用路環境得採取下列各款方式一、劃設速限標誌或標線二、實施降速措施三、規劃時段性行人徒步區及行人入線區四、其他金主管機關指定之方式第九條"},{"start":24533.905,"end":24558.522,"text":"第一項同行政院提案第一項第二項及第三項分別為直轄市縣市主管機關辦理前項路段重修應先通知所有權人、管理人或使用人。倘工程進行對所有權人、管理人或使用人因而遭受之損失應以適當之補償。補償金額由雙方協議之。協議不成實得由當地直轄市縣市主管機關核定之。"},{"start":24559.202,"end":24580.442,"text":"前項補償經由中央匡列一定經費補助直轄市縣市主管機關辦理第4項同行政院提案第二項並著作文字修正第13條本條例施行細則由中央主管機關會同交通部及其他目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":24588.432,"end":24609.277,"text":"復代決議一本條例通過後中央主管機關應無待於本法開始施行及與地方主管機關協力啟動盤查清點第八條所列之原同意設置之公用事業設施設備並通知各相關公用事業機構必利各相關公用事業機構儘早因應處理"},{"start":24611.317,"end":24628.872,"text":"二、本條例通過後中央主管機關應邀請地方主管機關學者專家公民團體研商騎樓符合保障行人無障礙通行權利的適切合宜標準如保留行人通行的最小寬度每戶騎樓應留通往道路通道之空間"},{"start":24629.993,"end":24648.19,"text":"其樓得否與遊行化設機車停車格、其樓得否置放花盆或公園以等物件等,必將上開標準訂定法律行政命令或指引予以規範,必供地方主管機關作為執行與民眾妥適利用其樓空間之依據。"},{"start":24649.071,"end":24668.087,"text":"三本條例通過後中央地方主管機關應加強懸導並於網路公佈各主管機關依道路交通管理處罰條例第82條及第82條之一廢棄物清零法逝去道路條例第16條公路法第72條及本條例執行取締之績效"},{"start":24669.087,"end":24686.056,"text":" ﹗本條例施行後,中央主管機關對於各地方政府道路交通改善計劃之補助應訂定客觀、明確的標準與程序作為申請與平和之準據。 ﹗道路停車格之劃設與取締各種專用停車格"},{"start":24686.576,"end":24710.578,"text":"如身障停車格或車停車格之劃設位置與公平機制黃網線的劃設標準等攸關道路公平效能便利使用之機制中央地方主管機關應訂定法律行政命令或指引務使行政專項自由行政人民申訴五門提案委員徐欣盈等3人宣讀完畢"},{"start":24718.035,"end":24736.213,"text":"本席宣告為此討論計較本次會議進行主條討論是如有行政院版本就以行政院版本為基準對照委員所提的修法提案來進行"},{"start":24739.116,"end":24750.056,"text":"每條條文如有委員提案後修正動議先分別請委員表示意見後再由行政單位一併回覆說明"},{"start":24751.561,"end":24752.762,"text":"法案名稱法案名稱法案名稱"},{"start":24782.382,"end":24798.341,"text":"請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有沒意見我們就沒意見通過接下來我們處理第一條條文無異議那我們就通過那我們就接下來處理第一條條文第一條條文除了行政院還有黃捷環境還有修正動議"},{"start":24800.187,"end":24827.819,"text":"第一條修正動議有林俊憲及我們洪森翰、王美惠等、習星雲等、蘇巧惠等、黃建斌等6個版本修正動議請在場委員提出有沒有表示意見的"},{"start":24831.017,"end":24851.113,"text":"黃捷好來好因為在我的版本裡面有放入就是2023年因為交通部去年有發一個行人交通安全的政策綱領裡面有提到說他的願景是交通領死亡的精神所以如果可以的話我也希望說這個願景可以放進去"},{"start":24851.733,"end":24873.729,"text":"另外我要帶林俊憲委員發言因為他在他的版本裡面他也希望說可以把以人為本的交通安全環境的目的是要提升道路的交通安全所以他也希望在這個文字裡面可以修正增加提升道路交通安全這樣的文字"},{"start":24876.399,"end":24894.256,"text":"謝謝我們黃捷委員的提案,還有洪森翰委員。因為我的版本當然現在還沒有辦法列進來,但是現在就是用附帶決議的形式,所以是在修正動議的形式提"},{"start":24897.559,"end":24925.327,"text":"在第4頁的部分我的版本裏面有再加強一句話是說並落實管理及考核機制落實管理跟考核機制是我們期待接下來在中央跟地方層次上面其實是用管理的思維來去處理問題也包括考核的部分其實不只是在前端的設計甚至到後面的完成應該要"},{"start":24926.827,"end":24927.508,"text":"復合一定考核標準"},{"start":24938.73,"end":24961.936,"text":"好謝謝我們黃聖漢委員黃建斌黃建斌委員我覺得我們主要是在講說是在強化我們本條例的立法目的就是在我們的以人為本的安全還有無障害用戶的環境他比較白話文的呈現像什麼行人動線連續性這樣的東西我們是用比較白話方式來呈現是這樣的修正"},{"start":24965.545,"end":24979.809,"text":"謝謝黃捷民委員。我們在座的委員還有沒有意見?王美惠委員。主席,在這裡要來請教說,我們這個本條條例的入法率不正,就是這個人本的動線的安全不夠的問題。以交通規則裡面第2條和第11條的"},{"start":24991.618,"end":25005.43,"text":"他需要積極建設改善維護行人的安全,建立於人本最重要的跟行人的動向,我們說很多議員、很多委員關心這個動向這個問題,所以這個有障礙、擁有的環境,"},{"start":25024.863,"end":25041.513,"text":"委員王美惠委員還有我們各位委員還沒意見沒有意見我們就請我們行政單位來做回答我們黃捷委員還有黃勝翰委員還有我們的黃建斌委員王美惠委員的意見請我們行政單位"},{"start":25047.816,"end":25076.608,"text":"也感謝趙委還有各位委員我想交通臨時網院警還有營造人們交通安全法我想這在原來的基本法裡面大家都有特別的有闡述清楚啦那因為我們這一個算是一個設施方面的一個作用法那我想也等於是跟原來的這一個基本法是相連通的那但是其實是相連通我是建議那一個臨時網院警就讓他在這一個原來的基本法裡面去呈現那我們這裡等於是"},{"start":25078.648,"end":25101.777,"text":"有一個清楚的闡述的話我是建議把它放到總說明立法總說明裡面去那其實我們因為是設施的作用法所以我們會建議還是照院版的部分就是去強調以人為本行人動線的連續性跟無障礙的用路環境這樣就會跟我們這個設施法原來的定義會比較精準所以大概在做這樣的意思的一個說明所以"},{"start":25102.297,"end":25119.902,"text":"這一點才會跟委員建議說是不是還是遭院版的部分會比較精準在落位上會比較精準但是我們會把大家所期待的這一個部分我們放在總說明裡面去把它做一個強調讓它也就跟原來的這個基本法是扣合起來的我做這樣一個報告好謝謝喔"},{"start":25134.258,"end":25157.323,"text":"現在我們的黃捷、黃森漢、黃建斌、王美惠所提出的意見剛才署長已經回答了那是不是照我們行政院的版本來通過好不好 有沒有意見沒意見好沒意見好那我們第一條都照行政院的版本通過"},{"start":25158.488,"end":25159.549,"text":"黃捷委員提案第二條請黃捷委員說明"},{"start":25187.403,"end":25187.925,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":25206.929,"end":25224.513,"text":"是一個設施的總的作用法那所以有關於這個管理的部分其實也跟原來的這個資料應該扣合在一起我說那個就整個放在總說我們會把它強調出來那這樣的話會比較精準就讓這個法規這一個部分比較精準的落在這個範圍內是說這樣的一個意思"},{"start":25236.966,"end":25265.367,"text":"雖然我知道這是作用法因為這不是基本法我們當然會把它做區隔但是希望落實管理跟考核這本來就是我們在思考它是作用法裡面一個非常非常重要的功能所以我們並不是要去做一個很高的宣示性的陳述所以落實管理跟考核是接下來我們在目前的整個法案裡面確實覺得說這個考核跟管理是關鍵這樣子所以我們才想要把它放在第一條這部分想要看一下"},{"start":25266.047,"end":25269.629,"text":"委員會特別關心就是說你要不要把它一開始就講清楚差不多有這樣的一個意思"},{"start":25292.845,"end":25319.642,"text":"這個當然會讓整個的用語上因為我們接下來是叫做定義跟用語那會變成你在前面寫在後面一定要有所定義啊所以才會若實管理跟考核不用定義啊我瞭解所以我才會說若實管理跟考核不是專用名詞不用再你再特別定義啊好就看如果說各位委員要我是覺得說"},{"start":25321.038,"end":25327.06,"text":"有一點開宗明義,那當然如果要把落實考核這個差異不大,因為我們後段也有寫了嘛因為我們是講為建設、改善、維護"},{"start":25350.263,"end":25375.482,"text":"建設、改善、維護我是在講他放在哪個位置因為前面有講建設、改善、維護並落實管理不好意思,我可以再說一次我再敘述一次為什麼我們這麼強調考核的原因是因為我們其實現在有大量的接下來的可能的行人設施地方政府會提出來"},{"start":25377.123,"end":25402.517,"text":"這個提出來當然都很好可是他是不是有最後完成我們期待的目的這件事情其實會非常非常吃我們能不能有效的考核跟管理這個事情所以這件事情因為我們在目前的政策機制上面我們看到了這個狀況跟這個樣態需求所以我們才希望能夠特別把管理跟考核開宗明義的寫在這個立法的目的上面主要是這樣"},{"start":25403.097,"end":25426.988,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":25428.463,"end":25453.723,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝我們黃澄漢署長的補充報告跟各位報告一下我們總說明的修正文字請國安署或送到我們本內政委員會辦公室納入本位審查報告這樣大家都很清楚了好來那現在我們就再來就是我們黃捷委員第二條提案請黃捷委員來做說明"},{"start":25459.155,"end":25484.372,"text":"我把一些設施跟設備的一些名詞定義放進去是因為我怕因為其實我們訂這個法的重點就是各地方在執行上會有一些落差那這個落差很可能導致他們接下來如果沒有明確的名詞定義的話他們一樣會照自己的方式去做所以我就訂了一些把這些很明確的用詞都放進去希望說大家的標準可以一致"},{"start":25484.992,"end":25510.546,"text":"然後避免地方的認知不同。我的用意是這樣子。好。也。那我說明了。好。請我們行政單位說明。謝謝委員的提案啦。因為其實事實上這些項目也的確都是應該要去做施設跟管理的啦。那只不過因為通常我們在這個母法上面寫的部分在後面都要有對應的"},{"start":25511.707,"end":25512.688,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":25537.806,"end":25544.109,"text":"委員所關心的部分我們會把它放到細則 這我們會在裡面說明裡面去詳細的去強調說相關的設施我們就會在這個細則跟裡面去定義我們會有一個立法說明"},{"start":25558.702,"end":25571.455,"text":"會在裏面說明說有關的這些這些定義出來的細項目那這些就會到那個就會在細則裡面去進行訂定OK"},{"start":25576.373,"end":25596.52,"text":"我這一條是沒有堅持啦只是說到時候的那些很明確的設施的定義都還是要放在一個地方讓大家知道對阿不然例如說就是人行道、人行穿越道、車主、欄杆這些其實每個地方的認知是非常不一樣的喔所以一定要有一個很明確的指引好嗎好"},{"start":25601.696,"end":25615.389,"text":"對,我想這些為什麼會在細則跟標準裡面去分別訂定也是這個原因啦因為這樣子的話才會根據不同的路寬不同的不同的現狀他還有一個調整的空間你放在母法的時候有時候會很難有"},{"start":25616.89,"end":25637.12,"text":"我可不可以補充再提一點,就是說現在黃捷委員的這個建議很好,雖然他不堅持但是可以在我們這一條裡面的一個說明裡面說你把這些東西把它未來在多久以內要把它在執法規範裡面寫清楚"},{"start":25639.998,"end":25649.256,"text":"信息則是規定半年內啦半年內就要完整那你就把它說明啦你那寫清楚嘛這樣子大家比較明確好不好這樣會不會比較完整好 謝謝"},{"start":25653.814,"end":25682.919,"text":"那這一條黃捷委員這一條就已經不堅持了所以沒有寫在這一條要寫在行政院版你的第二條或什麼去說明對不是啦行政院的第二條再去說明啦好那我跟各位報告黃捷委員你的那個提案我們就不採納好不好因為跟行政院版本都不一樣啊那我們就不採納我們接下來要處理行政院提案的第二條"},{"start":25685.845,"end":25688.567,"text":"行政院的第二條還沒有?行政院的第二條還沒有?好 謝謝"},{"start":25713.65,"end":25714.37,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25730.244,"end":25731.064,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":25752.743,"end":25771.05,"text":"行政院提案第二條有新增一個修正動議那個王美惠張雅琳的好那我們就來討論第二條行政院提案第二條"},{"start":25784.921,"end":25799.272,"text":"第二條修正動議有林俊憲、王美惠、徐希雲、黃建斌、張雅玲等五個版本修正動議請提案委員表示意見"},{"start":25819.536,"end":25821.558,"text":"黃建斌委員黃建斌委員的提案"},{"start":25842.352,"end":25857.365,"text":"我這邊想要在那個行人交通安全設施的部分去加強一個確保兒童安全的這個詞進去就是強調兒童因為其實我們在看行人的時候我們的視野跟兒童的視野是非常不一樣的"},{"start":25858.326,"end":25858.766,"text":"謝謝張雅蓮委員黃捷委員"},{"start":25885.899,"end":25912.355,"text":"好因為在那個對照表裡面院板的第二條是對照我的第三條對嗎那好那我可以直接說明我的第三條的部分嗎因為我這邊其實還是把原本道交條例跟一些就是原本既有條例的一些定義也放進去那就是看院板有沒有需要再把一些原本道交條例就有的一些定義就放進去那這個如果"},{"start":25916.797,"end":25927.742,"text":"林俊憲委員發言,因為在他的第二條裡面他也有把一個就是常態性跟臨時性的設施跟設備放進去,是因為他認為在工程單位"},{"start":25928.402,"end":25928.962,"text":"好,以上發言"},{"start":25956.377,"end":25985.275,"text":"好 謝謝還有沒有其他委員的意見好沒有就由行政單位來說明了好感謝那我想就有關黃捷委員的部分因為他本來在道交條例還有相關的處罰條例都已經有了我是建議是不用再重複在這裡再重新訂因為法規之間本來就可以相互援引的這個部分這是比較明確的我想這是第一個那第二個就是有關於這一個是不是要增加一個兒童因為"},{"start":25985.737,"end":25986.122,"text":"我想在這整個範疇裡面"},{"start":25987.779,"end":26015.795,"text":"有很多特殊的族群兒童也是一個族群老人也是一個族群有時候甚至懷孕婦女也是一個族群那因為這樣的話列舉式的是真的蠻多的那我是建議是一種是我們還是維持原來的用語但是我們在說明欄裡面可以加強就是說包含就是說要特別注意像兒童啦或是我們剛剛講老人懷孕婦女或這些特殊族群的一個需要那去訂定這樣的一個行人交通安全設施"},{"start":26016.255,"end":26039.376,"text":"用這樣的概念去統整的話可能會比較好避免在這個母法裡面就是有一點刻意把它指定特殊族群的這樣的一個概念我想這是第二個第三個臨時性的設施原本就是在地方政府來講它是屬於交委計畫必要去提出的不過我想今天也有很多委員都有特別指出來臨時的這樣一個設施並不是"},{"start":26041.378,"end":26042.679,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":26061.97,"end":26086.007,"text":"臨時性的行人通道但是這個也會有一個狀況就是說因為臨時性的行人通道跟施工中的又怕地方政府能夠對不起來那所以或許是我們這裡加了一個然後在說明裡面就把施工中的也把它包含進來那這樣可以讓它在定義上是一個適用範圍比較廣的一個做法那這是一個措施另外一個就是說"},{"start":26087.065,"end":26109.819,"text":"若只寫這樣若擔心以後的解讀者也不是那麼清楚所謂的這個臨時性的人行通道的話一種是在總說明裡面把這個防護行人安全的設施把這個說明裡面把這些東西加進去所以這兩個做法就看大家來斟酌看是哪一種會比較恰當"},{"start":26111.223,"end":26118.585,"text":"可是因為交為計劃裡面本來就有這個名詞的定義啊我覺得應該是不至於會混淆我覺得就放下去沒有問題"},{"start":26119.83,"end":26146.292,"text":"所以沒有因為是說交委計劃裡面所謂的臨時性的他有分施工中的還有還有其他的一個項目比如半大型活動也會有所謂的臨時性的那所以正常來講是在交委計劃裡面他還會去區分他還會再做區分所以才會一種是說我要不要在這裡特別指還是我要在總說明欄裡面去把它寫得更詳細是這兩種做法都可以"},{"start":26147.336,"end":26163.522,"text":"是這個意思是把行人防護行人安全裡面就含各式各樣的各式各樣的這個臨時通道把它寫進去那一種是我獨立寫但是就寫簡單一點讓他在以後的交為計畫裡面要去在個別去載明這樣"},{"start":26168.038,"end":26177.866,"text":"主席,現在市長說這樣啦齁,你說兩個都可以,那你覺得整袋一個大家看起來還不夠了嗎?還夠了嗎?一般來講是在總說明欄裡面會講得比較清楚啦。在總說明欄其實會講得特別清楚,因為他可以寫到很..."},{"start":26185.612,"end":26188.635,"text":"總說明會寫得特別清楚啦還比較容易寫得特別清楚因為他可以寫到很細"},{"start":26206.941,"end":26225.251,"text":"不是啦不是啦我跟你講齁來啦換我說一下好不好不要什麼事情都放在總說明欄裡啦好不好你就在第二條的說明欄裡面把它寫清楚就好了不要什麼都去總說明我就這樣不行啦"},{"start":26227.032,"end":26240.953,"text":"對啦 這個如果第二條說明我覺得這樣子會比較好啦不然我們本法裡面寫的太亂太雜我覺得也不好啦你在第二條的說明欄寫清楚啦好不好"},{"start":26248.006,"end":26262.672,"text":"我還是想要來討論一下是不是可以把兒童放進去的原因是因為其實在北美他們或是和歐洲他們都有做一些研究是發現兒童的視角大概95公分的這個視角是障礙者跟娃娃車的人都是看的那個視角"},{"start":26263.112,"end":26284.941,"text":"所以今天如果他確保了兒童的安全的話其實他相對就會照顧到這些的安全那我覺得放在這邊是有一個很好的一個提醒跟象徵的意義就是說我們國家過去其實只要發生這種事故其實都是非常的沉痛那我們這樣其實更能夠明確的去提醒我們的相關行政單位去注意到這件事情所以我還是希望說我們是不是可以把確保兒童的這個角色放在這個法條裡面謝謝"},{"start":26289.072,"end":26307.323,"text":"有署長、行政單位來報告就跟委員報告就是因為有太多的族群是其實都是同樣特殊的使用者啦那過去大概唯一比較有共識的是所謂無障礙設施這個是因為它適用的族群非常廣所以它被認定在這裡面"},{"start":26308.035,"end":26326.814,"text":"那因為兒童也是無障礙設施的其中一環那如果是比較擔心說這個放進去變成到時候也有其他團體因為老人也有他行動不便或是視覺上聽覺上比較遲緩的這樣的一個狀況那過去也有反應是甚至是所謂懷孕婦女也是一個族群"},{"start":26327.25,"end":26327.27,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":26342.25,"end":26342.73,"text":"各位委員大家還沒有意見"},{"start":26369.512,"end":26394.041,"text":"沒有意見我們就照第二條就照行政院的版本通過大家沒意見啦,沒意見就通過啦再來就是我們處理那個行政院提案第三條我們處理行政院提案的第三條好那我們現在都處理行政院的提案第三條第三條有修正動議"},{"start":26396.001,"end":26397.342,"text":"委員黃美惠、徐欣盈"},{"start":26411.675,"end":26426.051,"text":"請問在場委員有沒有意見?來,好,來,每位。主席,現在,因為公認罪,跟訴定也解釋認罪。現在,我聽你的意見。好,來。 這樣好不好?這樣好緊。 做針對第三條。對,針對第三條的。來,訴定。專業的,來。"},{"start":26437.657,"end":26439.498,"text":"主管機關主管機關"},{"start":26459.966,"end":26460.706,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":26489.192,"end":26490.433,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":26515.891,"end":26531.404,"text":"我覺得他們會有難度啦每個縣市政府的局處都不一樣啦名稱也不同啦有的有大一點的有交通局有的也沒有啦所以要他們寫細的話如果寫細的有的縣市政府沒這個單位反而沒有辦法"},{"start":26532.225,"end":26561.206,"text":"所以我是建議這個就照他這樣子啦讓他們這樣子才好處理啦但是我是說回應委員的意見就我們會在說明裡面還是會說明就是說這個案子因為涉及到的單位比較多啦就是請縣市政府呃 直轄市跟縣市政府應該把相關的呃 這個像大家所在意的呃 都計建設、公務、建管、交通、警政、教育通通就是應該要應該要一起納入呃 這這樣的一個"},{"start":26562.166,"end":26562.687,"text":"主管權責裏面黃盛瀚"},{"start":26585.851,"end":26585.871,"text":"議員黃捷"},{"start":26609.571,"end":26609.611,"text":"委員黃捷"},{"start":26631.71,"end":26645.836,"text":"只能用修正動議的方式所以我就必須要對應到目前院版的條次上面所以這兩條就有點放不進去但我還是想請教內政部那當初其實你們在布一開始的草案的時候有這兩個條文"},{"start":26647.056,"end":26668.899,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":26670.06,"end":26694,"text":"這件事情是很多交通議題裡面的關鍵所以我會覺得有那兩條其實是比較好的這部分還請署長可不可以說明一下感謝委員這其實也是在一般的法條裡面要寫的時候大致上在法務單位都一定會認為你條例定的東西在你後續的執行項目裡面要很明確的被定義出來"},{"start":26695.185,"end":26695.225,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":26712.621,"end":26726.223,"text":"條例對應到的是計劃,所以他認為是在計劃中去載明,而不是在條例中逐項去載明。他是這樣的概念,所以這是在作用法上面你所提到的要在後面要有一個明確的東西。"},{"start":26730.038,"end":26757.391,"text":"我覺得你這個說法我只同意一半我們都知道那時候訂這個條例的時候有一個非常非常重要的目的其實就是要去框住尤其是地方政府他掌管的權責所以這個條例的條文的作用不是只是去對應計劃而已而是本來我們就要要求把地方的權責也框定清楚當初我想包括總統包括院長說我們會訂定這個條例一個重要部分其實就是要處理這個問題"},{"start":26758.491,"end":26776.664,"text":"我現在反而怕是說你們法務單位會不會這個思考太過僵硬了把原本我們這個條例的目的重要的目的反而透過一個比較簡單的法務單位的解釋反而給他拿掉了反而對於我們一開始訂這個條例的時候的最核心的目的有所減損"},{"start":26778.001,"end":26802.448,"text":"我了解您說的意思所以我現在是在所以不是只是說我們現在希望它對應就一開始的時候我們訂這個條例的時候不是只是拿來對應計畫而已啊本來就是要把分工跟權責訂定清楚讓地方政府不能夠再推卸它必須被框在它應做的那些事情裡面嘛這是我們原本的目的啊那這兩個條文中央的掌管事項跟地方的掌管事項就是來處理這件事情所以我反而覺得這兩個條文很重要啊"},{"start":26805.853,"end":26829.335,"text":"我補充一下好了因為其實我剛剛質詢的時候也有提到說現在我們道路的管理機關非常多頭馬車的情況然後在這一條我就是希望處理這個那以我高雄的例子來說就是像我們內政部都有編那個通學步道的經費要給大家使用那在各縣市其實有些縣市是公務局來主管他們來做那個工程的進行那以高雄市教育局在做"},{"start":26829.835,"end":26855.714,"text":"那你就知道不同的單位在進行這個通學步道的時候其實大家會有點不知所予然後以高雄來說教育局要自己做那個通學步道工程對他們來說非常辛苦為什麼呢?因為他們過去沒有做這種步道的經驗沒有做這種道路工程的經驗然後他們自己去在發包的時候其實過程的那個效率非常之慢那我覺得也不能怪他們因為他們覺得哦通學步道好像是他們要負責"},{"start":26856.474,"end":26883.028,"text":"但是有些縣市就說本來就是工程單位平常都是養工處在做人行道啊就他們做就好了然後變成說我會定這麼細就是希望說那我們就是統一是不是工程因為它就是道路工程說實在就是道路工程然後就是要做人行道那如果沒有定清楚的話是不是各縣市會變成說大家沒有人去主管然後主管的單位也不一樣我是希望是這樣子去明定啦那看署長的意思"},{"start":26884.479,"end":26906.217,"text":"謝謝因為首先黃委員這些其實大致上在每個地方政府其實認知上都不太一樣因為需求者或許是學校或許是學校周圍的所以在我們知道各縣市政府的確認知不太一樣那可是當時也怕掛一落萬就是說公務單位其實不太瞭解當地的交通狀況"},{"start":26907.398,"end":26928.291,"text":"所以當時在做的時候有發給地方的公務、交通跟建設跟教育通通都發就是希望他們能夠自己去整合但是各縣的做法不太一樣有的有整合有的沒整合那有的甚至到最後有的變放棄提案我們都還要再經過第二次追蹤"},{"start":26929.758,"end":26945.074,"text":"第二次又要再經過第二次追蹤再下去我們這邊有些學校不敢提案就是這樣他們覺得他們做不起來對所以這本來就是嚴肅的這是地方自治在首長上應該要負起的一個責任"},{"start":26947.172,"end":26963.122,"text":"委員長,你都說當政務所長要復席一年啦,跟你也要續編久了啦,結果沒看一個,待一個好一年會出來啦,所有有請我過去請的選,覺得很多學校的,他乾脆不要申請,還去叫當地的公務處來做人選到這樣而已啊,不知道你們這個議會四百人四百人喔,我覺得很沒差啦。"},{"start":26975.911,"end":26976.771,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具《行人交通安全設施條例草案》案。"},{"start":26992.828,"end":27000.073,"text":"美惠跟黃捷委員講的都是在其實各縣市包括台中市也曾經發生過這樣子的問題但是我也可以理解署長在講說在這個母法的條文裡面要不要這麼的鉅細靡遺的分類跟定義"},{"start":27018.344,"end":27042.716,"text":"但是我提一個請召委主席可以思考我們這個是不是先保留然後請國土署可不可以你一個文字把我們幾個委員對於地方政府他們這樣子的一個該本於他們的權責應該好好的去做好每一個各局科室應該有的相關的行人交通道路設施"},{"start":27043.696,"end":27072.368,"text":"是不是可以有什麼文字可以來克責跟要求?了解。我去克你一個文字的版本啦。好,謝謝何欣辰委員。黃盛安,我先補充報告。因為署長,要是能夠做修改文字的話你就直接講嘛。我說明一下。這樣齁,我們這些委員都不用有疑慮啊。該修改就修改吧。好不好。"},{"start":27074.563,"end":27096.576,"text":"我說一下好不好我覺得啦齁我覺得我們立法當然要越詳細越好這我們都認同但是你在主法裡面你在那邊條文寫得太複雜其實我個人不這麼我看法比較不一樣條文就是要很簡單明確那你要"},{"start":27098.337,"end":27125.831,"text":"你要的很多的細節的就是有說明欄裡面然後你到時候施行細節我覺得你這樣子會處理會比較好你寫的在你的主條文裡面如果沒有寫到100分或是時代在進步你那個今天寫的條文你20年後不能用我覺得我們要考慮到這麼多這個我跟各位委員說一下所以我還是覺得條文的主條文我們還是不要讓它太複雜"},{"start":27129.4,"end":27150.406,"text":"我其實是建議這個條文可以先保留啦齁那我說我覺得保留意思是說第一個我也不覺得條文寫越細越好我覺得不求寫越細越好可是我覺得如果只是單純像現在院版寫說這個本條主管機關、中央世界政府、直轄市、地方政府我覺得這也太簡單我覺得這真的就有點減損了"},{"start":27152.046,"end":27152.367,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":27172.208,"end":27198.858,"text":"那不一定是求越細越好但是有沒有哪一種寫法可以把中央跟地方的執掌可以在裡面把它框清楚但是我不覺得要寫到很細可是至少你的執掌框清楚那個執掌不是只是說這個法的主管機關中央是你中央地方是我不是只是這樣我覺得我們可以求一個這個中間妥協的一個部分那我們今天這個也許先保留那大家再來去把這個條文給處理出來這樣好不好"},{"start":27202.369,"end":27202.609,"text":"委員黃捷"},{"start":27218.669,"end":27247.248,"text":"各種不同的道路形式跟他都不一樣雖然我的意思沒有要寫到哪一個局處我自己反而沒有覺得但是地方該執掌地方政府該執掌哪些事情是他的責任把他定清楚所以我一定要寫到局處怎樣非得選要選我沒有覺得一定這樣可是這是至少是地方政府要負責我們知道這是地方政府找地方政府哪個事情是中央政府找中央政府至少這個事情把它框清大塊的把它框清楚我比較主張是這樣那我覺得要不要這個先保留"},{"start":27247.648,"end":27277.1,"text":"我會建議啦其實我剛剛的意思就是說在說明欄裡面是要把這些同整的同整的這個局處執掌項目把它列出來比如說你有公務在說明欄裡面有公務有交通有教育有警政那這些就是你寫在說明欄就會比較清楚就是說你中央跟地方都應該要把這些單位抓進來去做一個明確的責任分工啦"},{"start":27278.151,"end":27300.288,"text":"那這樣的話在這個條例的對應跟說明也會比較清楚那至於執行細節的確就會在相關的適應細則跟這個以後設施標準裡面會去討論這個會去再訂出這一些細則細項的部分但是寫局處的方式 寫局處啦是把 不是寫局處是把執場項目 把執場項目啦"},{"start":27307.263,"end":27319.913,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案：立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議．則不予審查則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":27337.65,"end":27342.754,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":27359.668,"end":27361.23,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27375.246,"end":27380.59,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":27400.064,"end":27424.68,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案：立法院第1會期內政、交通委員會第1會期內政、交通委員會第2會期內政、交通委員會第3會期內政、交通委員會第4會期內政、交通委員會第5會期內政、交通委員會第6會期內政、交通委員會第7會期內政、交通委員會第8會期內政、交通委員會第9會期內政、交通委員會第10會期內政、交通委員會第11會期內政、交通委員會第11會期內政、交通委員會第12會期內政、交通委員會第12會期內政、交通委員會第13會期內政、交通委員會第"},{"start":27426.661,"end":27441.945,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":27451.468,"end":27453.95,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案"},{"start":27471.534,"end":27473.434,"text":"議員證證指控國安局議員證證指控國安局"},{"start":27489.559,"end":27491.802,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":27506.878,"end":27509.12,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27529.239,"end":27533.663,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案。 行人交通安全設施條例草案案。"},{"start":27557.602,"end":27567.386,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":27582.372,"end":27603.489,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案案。 行人交通安全設施條例"},{"start":27605.05,"end":27606.851,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員會復議"},{"start":27624.877,"end":27636.805,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查則不予審查⋯⋯"},{"start":27654.471,"end":27656.353,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案"},{"start":27684,"end":27692.103,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":27699.445,"end":27706.291,"text":"審判都被檢測,一般案已經分析,你來了解一下。審判都被檢測,一般案已經分析,你來了解一下。"},{"start":27726.327,"end":27732.151,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":27747.843,"end":27749.244,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":27762.33,"end":27783.872,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案案件事項、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件事項、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件事項、"},{"start":27787.018,"end":27790.203,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":27802.037,"end":27814.047,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":27825.577,"end":27826.438,"text":"委員這個階級 委員這個階級 委員這個階級 委員這個階級 委員這個階級 委員這個階級"},{"start":27841.169,"end":27854.643,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具、「行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、"},{"start":27871.497,"end":27889.028,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案、行人交通安全設施條例草案、行人交通安全設施條例草案、行人交通安全設施條例草案、行人交通安全設施條例草案、行人交通安全設施條例草案、"},{"start":27890.766,"end":27892.888,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案"},{"start":27919.203,"end":27922.867,"text":"現在行政院提案第3條 照案通過"},{"start":27934.502,"end":27934.902,"text":"提案通過現在來討論第4條"},{"start":27953.431,"end":27979.658,"text":"我建議好不好剛剛黃委員他的那個齁我們不在第3條處理但在第4條第5條處理啦那我們第5條我們先保留我們先處理第4條第5條先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先保留先"},{"start":27983.414,"end":28010.094,"text":"我補充因為第4條第5條是會保留啦齁那我只是要補充一個字原本要在第4條跟第5條裡面想加入其實應該要這個相關計畫的擬定與檢討應納入專家學者跟民間團體的參與討論其實我原本是想要放在第4條跟下面的一項裡面去處理這個事但現在都保留我們就一定保留沒有問題但我們想要加這個讓擴大公民參與的項次能夠進去這樣子"},{"start":28012.836,"end":28013.297,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":28022.977,"end":28048.804,"text":"主席第5條要保留的話就是我有提說人行道那麼重要早上我在那個內政部長就說有列入母法所以呢在第5條這邊我有提案有建議所以說這個部分的話也要列入母法好那我們等一下保留選擇單位一併來處理好不好好謝謝主席第4第5條我們先保留然後我們先從第6條開始然後我們回過頭來我們再來處理"},{"start":28052.466,"end":28054.449,"text":"第6條請委員翻到第5頁我們來處理第6條"},{"start":28067.502,"end":28078.89,"text":"第6條有修正動議有王美惠委員、徐欣盈委員、黃建斌委員三個版本的修正動議"},{"start":28082.512,"end":28084.072,"text":"黃建斌委員黃建斌委員黃建斌委員"},{"start":28102.978,"end":28124.953,"text":"好謝謝我們黃捷委員來我們黃捷委員好那我的版本裡面是有把地方主管機關明定的這個計畫的內容都寫清楚就是他們因為院版只有寫到說應該要辦理這個計畫並且要調查嘛那我有把它的一些更具體的措施都放進去那也希望署長可以說明一下謝謝"},{"start":28126.831,"end":28140.107,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員等一下我們再一併處理那還有沒有委員還有沒有意見沒有意見的話由市長來回答黃捷民委員跟黃捷委員條例上一般來講就是會比較簡明"},{"start":28141.408,"end":28164.179,"text":"那剛剛黃委員所提到的這一個應該要說有一點要公告周知的概念那再加上黃捷黃委員是希望把一些細項能夠提列出來那我是建議就是說因為細項的部分的確一般來講都是在細則或是設置標準裡面去定義"},{"start":28165.9,"end":28166.2,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":28197.214,"end":28206.861,"text":"但是我們還是會把他放進來做一個條文的一個提醒跟說明那黃捷換人不能是不是看在放在細則裡面去把他項目規定的更清楚一點好"},{"start":28208.083,"end":28234.971,"text":"為什麼我會這樣寫是因為我們訂這個條例的精神跟當初的目的就是因為很多東西過去都非常不清楚所以我們才想要訂一個條例把這些東西講清楚然後結果我們現在講清楚了又非常的簡明簡明到好像又沒有講清楚那就會覺得那我們訂這個條例是不是實質上的作用並不大好像又是一個很宣示性的然後說對我們會做但是結果最後還是回歸到那種非常全責不清然後他們要做什麼他們也不知道這樣的情況"},{"start":28236.852,"end":28246.852,"text":"如果照這樣下去啦最後就是什麼事情都不寫清楚那其實你們從頭到尾就訂一個施行細則就好啦各位委員報告因為施行細則就是要有母法的授權所以"},{"start":28249.435,"end":28274.27,"text":"沒有沒有因為早年是這樣早年我們只有一個我們是在市區道路條例裏面復始出來的一個設施標準那因為那個設施標準它就沒有一個母法的授權是說你一定得照我這個方式去做去扣合它所以現在為什麼立這個是因為讓它可以扣合在一起是這個意思黃捷兵這樣可以喔"},{"start":28279.172,"end":28288.379,"text":"好,那就照行政院提案,行政院的版本,那我們第6條就通過。好,來,那我們下面來處理第7條。來,第7條,有林信憲委員、洪森漢委員、王美惠委員、習新宇委員、黃建斌委員五個版本的修正動議。來,請我們委員。"},{"start":28310.918,"end":28333.112,"text":"林俊憲委員有特別提到商圈,那他是說因為現在就是我看一下他怎麼講的就其實也是他今天早上的質詢的內容啦就是因為商圈其實也算是一個非常重要的一個需要劃設這個行人友善區的一個地方所以看是不是再把這個商圈也放進去"},{"start":28334.161,"end":28340.439,"text":"就是除了說醫療院所學校機關跟大眾運輸的場所之外也把商圈也納入這個行人友善區"},{"start":28346.298,"end":28373.178,"text":"審判委員審判審判那個從學校機關我這邊的修正動力是包括加上有托嬰中心幼兒園公園跟兒童遊戲場跟市場那大概增加了一些也是比較是會行人密集的地方那以上"},{"start":28375.471,"end":28376.512,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28397.945,"end":28397.965,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":28415.197,"end":28415.557,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":28440.009,"end":28468.067,"text":"第二個他也有離場動線的問題所以他相對是比較複雜所以我們為什麼會用一個等就是你地方政府有把握的時候你就提出來公告你就提出來公告不一定是要直接透過立法直接就把他框死你一定要來做這件事情那這樣反而會會讓這個地方政府失憶在支援的時候困難度會變得很高第二也是跟我們在說我們是不是也把他放說明欄裡面也是他應該要周知我我相信大家都希望改善的時候是周圍的"},{"start":28476.211,"end":28490.277,"text":"所以這個部分就是也跟我們說明一下就的確我們在考慮這個時候其實會想的很多就是先把有把握一般民眾認知應該要的先把他放進來那剩下就讓地方總統去公告"},{"start":28498.896,"end":28522.871,"text":"李博義委員新市政開發區亂徵收還有市立重劃整理開闢因規劃失作行人友善區應有沒有規範區域有多大還是說這一個區亂徵收裡面只要有就可以了他應該是這麼說啦就是因為你是一個計劃性要做的事情所以不像現在我們要去做改善"},{"start":28524.052,"end":28544.423,"text":"我們沒有放比例下去嗎?每個開發區的狀況不太一樣但是其實上面也有我們剛剛所講的你有醫療院所學校機關那你如果規劃的裡面你有這些那你就當然一定得做那剩下就是你在規劃中你就要提早去安排做這件事情"},{"start":28545.33,"end":28557.335,"text":"是在提醒你做這件事情你在規劃中的時候你就要開始做提醒而已不是提醒是你要一開始就要準備做這件事了不要等到你公共工程要做完才要又來提那樣是不行的"},{"start":28559.043,"end":28574.911,"text":"審計劃之後就要把它放進來各位委員第7條大家還沒什麼意見沒有我們就照案通過好不好照行政院版本通過好那我們現在來就是第8條"},{"start":28579.356,"end":28607.643,"text":"第8條修正動議有黃瑟漢委員、王美惠委員、徐勛穎委員三個版本的修正動議黃建斌委員徐勛穎委員發言這個就是在期限部分第一項期限不得超過一年就是這個部分各位委員還有沒有意見我們黃瑟漢委員"},{"start":28609.875,"end":28634.528,"text":"好這是在我剛才在質詢的時候我提到因為我們現在院版的第8條他比較是針對這個固定設施的部分喔那其實我們實際上的狀況裡面會遇到大量的非固定設施尤其是可移動的比方說維庭的機車或者是一些花盆啊什麼有的沒有的這其實應該就不是固定設施了齁"},{"start":28635.288,"end":28659.662,"text":"但這些固定設施當它有阻礙的時候移除的時候其實很多市民的經驗就是找不到人可以幫你幫忙處理這件事情或者是你求助無門被轉來轉去不知道轉給誰所以我的條文裡面是有再加上就是說針對這樣子的這個非固定式的可移動障礙物那我們這邊的寫法當然我覺得"},{"start":28662.883,"end":28681.629,"text":"委員會再討論應該指定專責機關或專責的單位因下列的情形排除所以我們也把包括道交處罰條例第82條跟82條之一等等的我們把它寫在上面但這條我們自己版本的我在修正動力上面的重點就是地方政府應該要指定專責單位讓"},{"start":28683.37,"end":28683.971,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":28701.995,"end":28722.613,"text":"這條我是覺得很支持啦但是齁你們如果這樣這一條我怕你到時候是很難做得到你光那個電線桿然後光那個台電的所有的你有的地方要移但大家都想要移但你找不到地方移"},{"start":28724.099,"end":28750.832,"text":"你又這個...所以它是不少於三個月那個我當然知道所以我的意思是說你這一條這個我要提醒說這一個東西的話我們法令過了你的執行能不能到徹底我是認為沒有辦法完全但我還是支持說應該要去做只是提醒你們要這個你會馬上遇到問題有啦"},{"start":28752.112,"end":28764.659,"text":"王明慧委員主席,在這裡也是一樣,台電的電線,你說不要吵架,說出來,你看署長的手,因為很多可以算,他現在擺爛說,你找有位我來算,有時要報端,又要找不到位啦,所以說署長,這件你訂的時候,你未來,你要做的時候,可能你會做的難性,我告訴你一個,"},{"start":28781.207,"end":28781.767,"text":"第8條,大家有沒有意見?"},{"start":28806.368,"end":28833.384,"text":"非固定的項目因為的確是在那個道交管理處罰條例裡面本來就有訂啦那一種是當然我在說明裡面我是建議在說明因為我們談的是設施也是固定物啦那非固定物的部分一種是我是建議把它放說明欄再說明一遍那另外一個是當然我們會可以來要求地方政府在你的改善計畫裡面應該要把這些東西也加進來啦"},{"start":28834.54,"end":28858.689,"text":"那這樣他在感染計畫裡面地方也很清楚的要說明如果這一類問題他要怎麼處理我現在想要求的問題是說在地方政府的工作裡面他應該有責任要去指定或者是要處理清楚你的權責單位誰來處理這件事情這是他的因然就是要用法規來讓地方政府"},{"start":28859.824,"end":28861.664,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":28888.849,"end":28917.847,"text":"以現在我認知啦 地方政府最多的是1966啦1966就把它分掉了 因為它是一個總服務的 總服務的窗口啦我看很多地方政府大概是這樣 我了解 所以我才會說即使我們在地方去 你真的去指定的話其實還是一樣 類似的一個狀況 就是我指定了一個總服務的窗口"},{"start":28918.84,"end":28920.02,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":28947.045,"end":28969.562,"text":"好,那我們第8條大家沒什麼意見我們就照...我們就提供文字好,提供文字吧一年來個我是覺得徐欣穎委員是建議有一個天花板不超過也不要超過就像剛剛所講的喔還是會有自然燃省我們知道一定會啦可是這就到時候來滾動來調整因為他們喜歡"},{"start":28974.42,"end":28988.986,"text":"黃捷兵委員,這樣直達的回答可以吧?可以喔?好,那我們第8條就照行政院的版本通過。好,那再來因為他當過鄉長他知道很痛苦"},{"start":28992.518,"end":29016.553,"text":"第9條,修正動議有王美惠、李柏毅、王美惠、徐欣穎、施巧慧、黃建斌等5個版本的修正動議王美惠主席,在此我要來請教我們署長,您會在行政院裡面"},{"start":29018.214,"end":29035.602,"text":"第一行指定入段統一重修第二行時說重修後若自己主動去改檢不符合適用時您會書面通知兩國會來要改善或發展我這裡要來請教一個"},{"start":29046.24,"end":29058.746,"text":"這若沒有管理委員會．若沒有發動聯繫對方．若說有發動聯繫．若他們沒錢．這要如何處理?像你寫的那樣說兩國會後．兩國會來改善．若找不到主人的選 你要如何來?"},{"start":29069.229,"end":29090.948,"text":"其實這個企業公文報告應該這也是實務執行上啦就是地方政府通常他也會有先代為代為把它重新再修整好啦那剩下就是要依照這個行政執行法強制去執行那這個部分當然就會回到相關的法規去處理啦我想這部分本來地方在實務經驗上就有啦"},{"start":29093.479,"end":29105.755,"text":"所以這個部分實務執行商應該都可以做得到但是有關於它對應到的這個罰則的部分當然依照行政執行法還是要強制執行這個部分還是要照做"},{"start":29107.869,"end":29117.676,"text":"僱主巧慧委員我想我也是要討論的是就是說這個院版的真的能夠解決問題嗎因為確實我們現在其實在建築技術規則建築設計施工篇第57條就規定了其樓地面因"},{"start":29127.043,"end":29150.145,"text":"應該喔!英語人行到齊平嘛表示這個是一個大家應該要做的事情好啊你現在是說如果未齊平的話沒有齊平的話主管機關得指定路段統一重修還有這個得在這是要修還是不需要修就是他可以決定了嘛他可以決定一個路段如果大家協調一致了就開始去做了"},{"start":29150.565,"end":29169.494,"text":"當然嘛,但是我們想知道說因為我們今天本來是在討論我們今天這個主旨是行人交通安全設施條例嘛那總是有個態度意思是說我們政府的態度是如果它不平我就主管機關就應該要跳出來要去修還是我只看到不平我也可以看出來說啊,得啦得啦"},{"start":29170.094,"end":29174.316,"text":"我並不是只有從這裡的話就直接說跳到不要我反而是說我的修正動議的版本是說我們讓它強烈一點我們寫由直轄市縣市主管機關指定路段統一重修我也沒有給你寫因啦但是我寫由你來指定路段統一重修"},{"start":29198.126,"end":29198.586,"text":"委員黃捷"},{"start":29211.974,"end":29227.089,"text":"他不憑應該被休但他始終不願意被休的話那怎麼辦那我就寫說第一項情形公司有土地處所之所有人使用人或管理者不得規避不得規避不得妨礙不得拒絕不得嘛"},{"start":29228.971,"end":29257.91,"text":"因為你就是一個造成大家不平的狀況了所以你不得規避可是那我又有下一項就是說那我如果真的就把你改了那怎麼辦好那我就通知而且有補償的條件我感覺這樣才有辦法到最後是整個棋樓要能夠平的這個部分是真的有機會完成的啊不然的話如果只是現在的條文版本我是覺得要真的要平可能就是"},{"start":29259.161,"end":29261.111,"text":"這是我的想法啦,要跟大家討論啦。"},{"start":29269.407,"end":29294.374,"text":"我其實大概很了解這個很用心的用意還是主管機關要認定哪一條路要開始先來處理所以我們放給主管機關這個權限比如說高雄市政府要決定比如說中山路我們要開始推動這個整個騎樓跟人行道平整那上面有哪一些事判局我們要做才是授權地方政府來做這個德"},{"start":29295.774,"end":29317.911,"text":"得指定路段統一重修我不反對這個做法支持這個做法但是針對我們這個4年400億而且我們定下來在第5條裡面定的說要用4年來檢討這個我有意見這個我們稍後在第5條的時候我們再來做討論黃謙斌"},{"start":29325.783,"end":29345.67,"text":"就是我們剛才提到的,剛才蘇貴先生講到那個最重要我們還是務實的去等到今天來給他就先要補償要補償的時候,補償這筆錢是誰要來出我覺得應該是不是,如果我們協議確定要做那補償,那這個是由當地縣市政府呢還是中央來補償"},{"start":29347.182,"end":29362.867,"text":"那我說明一下好了,因為這第一個啦,就是說其實所有人講的那個語意啦,其實我感覺兩個是一致的啦,那我覺得那個部分我不反對,我覺得可以接受,就是從得指定變成有。"},{"start":29366.339,"end":29394.813,"text":"第二個就是說其實但是我必須要說明一下現在地方政府真的在重修的困難度是在於其實基本上他就是不願意那不願意就有兩三種原因第一個最大的原因是他本身就是佔用在做生意那個是最大的一個問題其實那個就整個就整個建管來講他其實是已經違反建管的法規其實早就已經違反建管的法規"},{"start":29395.532,"end":29407.846,"text":"所以基本上沒有補償的問題,問題在這裏,你已經是違規的所以過去沒有人敢寫補償這個字眼,因為最大的問題是占用起來做生意"},{"start":29408.649,"end":29427.171,"text":"在可能雙北還沒有很明顯,中南部是非常多啦,中南部非常多啦所以其實為什麼這也是在我們執法上還是要必須守住說我可以幫你統一重修但是你那些攤位啦,你擺設的固定物,你擺設那個牆板啦去做阻擋"},{"start":29428.012,"end":29449.35,"text":"那些其實本來就是你是違規的這個設置的部分你還是應該要拆除掉那所以這個為什麼要讓地方有一個權限是說你去談好大家有意願都拆掉了那我們來執行高低不平的還有銜接的這個部分我想這是要讓委員理解說這是實務執行上一定是這樣子的做法"},{"start":29450.322,"end":29478.572,"text":"那我補充一下因為在我原本的版本裡面我覺得這個很好啦因為其實七樓整平計畫很多縣市也都有我們高雄市也有在做只是說就是在你們的版本裡面怎麼樣的條件是應該要優先來執行或是地方縣市政府他們要就是你們要給他們錢的時候應該是哪一些應該優先來申請啦我覺得這個不一定要放在母條文但是你們會放在哪裡要不要跟大家說明一下還有哪一些項目你們大概是優先會處理的"},{"start":29479.252,"end":29483.81,"text":"了解,跟委員說明啦,其實基本上來講,他如果要做我就很高興啦"},{"start":29485.765,"end":29511.078,"text":"你如果要責罵就好,我想當過地方首長應該都知道,他只要肯做就表示他已經溝通了有很大的部分了,應該就比較可行。但是我理解委員的意思,也就是說的確他已經在重要的交通節點附近的,這是最重要,其實重要交通節點附近現在是問題最大,就是他有條件化行人友善區的,結果他卻因為這個因素無法"},{"start":29511.698,"end":29532.866,"text":"無法通了,那這個當然是在我們的理解是這是最優先因為他有行人友善區的基本條件結果他做不到那這當然是最優先那其實就是重要的就像剛剛講重要的交通節點像我們很多地方老的這種火車站周圍其實這類問題也很嚴重那這也是我們一直很期待可以早一點來解決的"},{"start":29534.286,"end":29561.163,"text":"師傅不是再補充一下齁我們這個違法的部分我們還要去討論啦齁先要處本來一開始因為你要抓水平嘛有的處因為這樣他會變管變家造成損害這保安是不是要保守所以我說明一下他不是培養他是我整個重修的經費都是政府出的全部都政府出的對對對你講的那個改善那個是我重修以後你又去破壞掉那那個當然你要負責改善是這個意思"},{"start":29565.094,"end":29565.514,"text":"蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":29580.445,"end":29606.981,"text":"由直轄市縣市主管機關指定所以我主管機關仍保有空間喔你要指定不指定這沒有強制到這個全面性全部的都要開挖沒有這種事情這第一個我一定要再留下記錄第二個我下面的這些段落等於是讓主管機關有白紙黑字的權限把當你是指定路段的時候"},{"start":29607.401,"end":29632.151,"text":"如果有人要違反要妨礙要規避要拒絕的時候你等於是有權限因為白紙黑字法律文字寫在這裡了你可以去處理因為他規定不得拒絕可是到最後一項第4項的時候討論到這個補償當然是因為他是合法但是因為我們有公眾更大的利益我們要平整的騎樓的時候讓你"},{"start":29634.392,"end":29656.321,"text":"受到損害所以我給予補償那種什麼占用、違建等等那種沒有辦法不包含在這個裡面他的合法與否是前提啦或是說你前面有這個其他相關你們在討論的時候這是我原來文字的利基第一主管機關仍有空間決定的空間然後他有權限裁量的權限"},{"start":29657.341,"end":29678.392,"text":"第二,照你們的是要通知改善第三,是有問題的人他是不得規避的主管機關變成有權限去處理他第四,被處理的人他是有機會得到補償的大概是我這四項的狀況那我一樣是請大家討論但我至少要把我的版本再說清楚一次留作記錄謝謝好,謝謝你們四小位來由行政單位來做回覆做建議就第一個我覺得由"},{"start":29687.461,"end":29703.993,"text":"就是第一項改成由直轄市縣市政府指定路段統一我覺得這樣的方法語意也是很清楚這也沒有說一定強迫立刻執行的部分這一點應該沒有問題第二項大家也都同意"},{"start":29706.141,"end":29733.594,"text":"第3項所謂的公私有第一項我指定了但是你公私有獨立所有權人。市長你說大家都同意第二項啦吼。在本席剛才說的就是說你這個書面通知在兩國會來改善發展的時候如果找不到人我們沒有這裡的管理委員會的時候。是啊所以這個就是回到強制執行法"},{"start":29734.114,"end":29734.134,"text":"蘇明蘭議員"},{"start":29750.759,"end":29754.461,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":29777.304,"end":29806.513,"text":"我是建議那個部分是放在說明欄裡面去把它說明清楚啦是是對第一段第一段好第一段要改有對然後把德把德去掉把德去掉然後是"},{"start":29809.859,"end":29830.944,"text":"修正統一思巧會由直轄市縣市主管機關指定統一的統一指定路段這個德就在我們螢幕上大家都可以看得到"},{"start":29834.548,"end":29837.991,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":29856.877,"end":29882.387,"text":"其實第三項我比較擔心是一個兩面陣我比較擔心是一個兩面陣所以才會有一點猶豫是那個兩面陣如果寫下去這兩面陣會不會推的會沒有關係這就是我有我的職責嘛我認為我應該把我覺得比較合理的版本可以好的版本你們拿出我拿出來嘛你們確實可以討論實務上做不做得到"},{"start":29882.947,"end":29909.259,"text":"因為這樣規範下去以後你們在討論的空間會不會限縮到你現階段無法執行這個是我沒有辦法要從你的資料口中報告才能拿出來的嘛所以我才會說三四那我也尊重我也在聽你的意見只是我現在必須說如果你三四沒有接受的話坦白講你前面那個幫我從什麼第一項從德改成優我覺得沒什麼意義啊而且甚至用了你的願把"},{"start":29910.339,"end":29933.272,"text":"因為事基本上在相關的法規都可以處理啦因為本來就是重修的費用都是由政府統一出嘛那其實大部分都是佔用啦那你是至於補償的時候本來在執行過程中就會去談對啦所以這不是在買菜討價還價捏你給我第一段然後你不要我三四段我覺得這是兩個是有完全串好的語意"},{"start":29933.832,"end":29940.343,"text":"那三就來試試看我覺得是可以來試試看加進去啦不過說穿了我覺得對地方政府來講有點兩面刃啦"},{"start":29942.503,"end":29965.55,"text":"會有一點兩面陣,當過首長應該都知道這有點兩面陣我是建議是不需要,是真的不需要,三是可以討論看看因為你起落違規非常好"},{"start":29970.007,"end":29995.63,"text":"所以我説明一下因為你有了3地方政府在做1的時候他就會更猶豫了他就會更猶豫了因為你有了3他選1的時候他就要非常非常慎重他沒有本來可能大概有七八成把握他就敢做了他有一點要借大家都同意了那你也同意吧可是你如果寫了3"},{"start":29997.099,"end":30019.566,"text":"後面本來不同意的可能會激化得更嚴重會讓縣市首長在做的時候會更猶豫所以我剛剛講有點兩面刃的原因也在這裡我是建議先不要放啦如果真的有需要再來放說真的啦因為我是從實務上角度是說你真的刪放了"},{"start":30020.834,"end":30021.094,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":30035.707,"end":30036.647,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":30051.972,"end":30068.047,"text":"主席,在此要向署長探討一下,剛才在理行的,你這個限期2個月內改善,你可不可以改個字型2個月內改善?"},{"start":30070.12,"end":30072.582,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30092.114,"end":30094.035,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":30121.6,"end":30139.505,"text":"第9條就修訂通過好不好等一下我想確認一下所以第1項的那個油和德是什麼樣的狀況因為我個人會建議就是我真的如果是3和4沒有的話是不是直接就是完全站照院版我覺得那個你們的版本是一種語意我的版本是一種語意喔"},{"start":30140.825,"end":30143.246,"text":"有改好了啦 有改好了"},{"start":30164.341,"end":30185.286,"text":"改成有好了由直轄市縣市主管機關指定入段統一重修那第二段的倒數第二行就是限期於兩個月內自行改善可以可以報告有沒有意見沒有沒有意見我們就修正通過了"},{"start":30195.169,"end":30207.763,"text":"第10條的修正動議有黃生翰委員、王美惠委員、習新穎委員、麥益臻委員、蘇巧惠委員五個版本的修正動議"},{"start":30214.175,"end":30214.756,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30234.414,"end":30234.574,"text":"議員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":30249.947,"end":30250.628,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":30270.809,"end":30299.582,"text":"執行效率不好執行狀況不好有兩個原因嘛第一個原因的話當然是說他不積極不認真不努力那另外一種就是他就是沒有很多錢可以把事情做好啊那所以在這樣的兩個狀況下你如果他想做但是錢不夠預算不夠然後沒有做到好的時候你又用撿他的錢來做一個懲罰的手段的話我覺得會不會變成真的是讓他雪上加霜讓他辛苦的人更辛苦"},{"start":30300.322,"end":30326.147,"text":"所以我提了一個建議是這樣子在我們的版本當中是說如果他的績效不彰的時候是怎麼辦呢是主管在第二項開始喔我的第二項後段改的是得命直轄市縣市主管機關限期改善限期改善欲其人不作為者得待刑處理啦我們是覺得是中央主管機關等你連跳都去做你發生這件事這輩子你還沒做過對啊"},{"start":30329.768,"end":30334.81,"text":"為了做而做,常常到最後就是有些他做不到,他就跳過去了。"},{"start":30352.421,"end":30379.461,"text":"那這個就是會變成跟我們原來預期你應該要做好的項目然後就沒有了所以為什麼要去第一個要落實考評其實第二關鍵就是避免你腐爛提案或者是只會做而做這種這是第一個其實反而地方政府認真提案我們可以看到它其實都有一定的成效而且通常會超出我們預計我根本不知道其實這條用意最大的是在避免那些腐爛提案"},{"start":30380.54,"end":30380.56,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":30399.198,"end":30420.084,"text":"以前的做法是怕被我們列委記錄不好,下一次就不給你了。他很怕。那我們現在的做法是更具體說,你如果有這種情形,我就在相關的計畫直接扣你的補助款。就是要有點警惕你不要說...得啦!得簡略啦!對不對?就是我一次最主要是要控管你不要有那種腐爛提案就是..."},{"start":30421.215,"end":30442.885,"text":"只是爲了爭取預算來提的那一種那其實不太適當我當然知道就是說其實我們也是在地方服務了一陣子我們當然也知道說這是你手上最大的棍子要讓他做好這樣但是基於我們不是最有錢的城市我們也還是要還是要把這段話說出來留作記錄啦對對對大概是這個意思不要亂扣我們錢"},{"start":30445.546,"end":30466.012,"text":"那我講一下我的好不好就是因為我的版本裡面是有一個就是這個執行的成果報告要有一個公開讓民眾檢視的機制所以就是有加入這個文字那如果要精簡的話看是不是就是把這個執行成效上網公告之類的本來就所謂公佈"},{"start":30467.216,"end":30470.397,"text":"第10條我們就照行政院版通過了好,大家沒意見我們就通過了好,那我們再來處理第11條"},{"start":30494.875,"end":30519.19,"text":"第11條的修正動議有王美惠委員、習新穎委員、麥一貞委員三個版本的修正動議請各位委員有沒有什麼意見我也沒有意見我們就照行政院版通過那我也沒意見我們就照行政院版通過再來12條"},{"start":30526.203,"end":30539.103,"text":"第12條修正動議有王美惠、徐欣穎、麥一貞三個版本的動議大家有沒有意見沒有意見就照行政院版通過"},{"start":30544.669,"end":30565.3,"text":"我們接下來要處理黃捷委員提案的第14條我們接下來就處理第14條我們黃捷委員的提案本條有王美惠委員的修正動議及第15條一併討論那我的剛剛已經跟那個院板討論過了我這邊就不用那就不予採納那就不予採納"},{"start":30569.622,"end":30596.777,"text":"繼續處理黃捷委員的提案第13條好,那我們就繼續處理黃捷委員提案第13條本條由王美惠委員提出修正動議第14條我們一併討論好,那我這個也不堅持可以不採納好,那就不予採納"},{"start":30601.546,"end":30622.206,"text":"第13條的修正動議有王美惠等16人、習新穎、黃建斌三個版本的修正動議請各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見我們就照案通過照行政院版通過第14條"},{"start":30625.741,"end":30650.791,"text":"來第14條的修正動議有王美惠、習新穎兩個版本的修正動議大家沒意見沒意見我們照行政院的版本通過那我們現在回頭來處理第4條我們處理行政院版的第4條"},{"start":30652.284,"end":30660.207,"text":"第4條有黃勝翰、王美惠、習新穎、黃建斌等4個版本的修正動議。"},{"start":30674.267,"end":30683.222,"text":"休息三分鐘好那我們第四條跟第五條一起討論休息三分鐘好趕快趕快該溝通該協調去協調好不好"},{"start":30690.021,"end":30696.905,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":30722.401,"end":30724.424,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案"},{"start":30738.924,"end":30763.247,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具、「行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通"},{"start":30764.737,"end":30770.179,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查則不予審查⋯⋯"},{"start":30788.648,"end":30805.784,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具、「行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件、行人交通安全設施條例草案案件"},{"start":30814.571,"end":30820.095,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具:「行人交通安全設施條例草案．則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":30839.167,"end":30839.207,"text":"委員黃捷"},{"start":30849.481,"end":30851.902,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":30873.409,"end":30877.592,"text":"禁止行人交通安全設施條例草案案。"},{"start":30899.028,"end":30900.589,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":30918.167,"end":30919.387,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":30936.95,"end":30958.575,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":30963.157,"end":30963.177,"text":"請審查"},{"start":31003.131,"end":31008.134,"text":"我們現在開始開會行政單位大家溝通差不多一個階段了"},{"start":31013.701,"end":31019.043,"text":"時間延長資本會本次會議議程所列法案審查完畢"},{"start":31032.993,"end":31045.792,"text":"本市報告本次會議時間延長至本次會議議程所列的法案處理完畢請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有異議好 上岸"},{"start":31057.765,"end":31075.137,"text":"主席,我們本席這邊還是在強調是在計劃經費的礦業部分還是由中央單位要礦業預算補助之下縣市政府來辦理的,就是這個部份,經費部份因為你經費只有些經費,你沒有些經費來玩嘛,這要補助給你好,是不是由署長來補充報告一下"},{"start":31086.654,"end":31110.147,"text":"因為它是建設計畫所以就是由計畫裡面去提那現在本來就是這樣做因為你在法條寫的話反而以後不會被框死只有在那個只有在那個建設計畫其他就不行了我説明一下所以我才會跟我本來現在就會這樣做了啦不需要在法條裡面特別去寫反而你寫的寫是寫固定了那以後其他的項目就不行了"},{"start":31112.54,"end":31139.874,"text":"所以我才會說本來就會這樣做的沒關係啦每位沒關係對但是你如果寫的"},{"start":31150.519,"end":31150.999,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":31172.006,"end":31178.573,"text":"第4條,可不可以再看一下條文來,第4條條文啦看一下好不好,放那個...這個很重要的,要看好"},{"start":31189.566,"end":31204.272,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例草案案。 行人交通安全設施條例草案"},{"start":31216.451,"end":31216.471,"text":"審案"},{"start":31236.207,"end":31236.747,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":31274.937,"end":31281.018,"text":"好各位委員現在那個條文已經修改了現在大家都看一下看有沒有意見"},{"start":31294.779,"end":31296.422,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31307.012,"end":31326.718,"text":"現在第5條是修改法,這樣...針對行政院版本來做修正,我們待會過去第4條修正通過這樣就好。好,第4條,照行政院版本通過。是修正通過。修正,修正通過。"},{"start":31336.66,"end":31348.324,"text":"第4條的修正版本已經壞下去了,請問各位來看一下各位委員,第4條的修正版本已經在各位手上,大家看一下看有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":31373.203,"end":31373.703,"text":"來,呃,先再報完,來,署長。"},{"start":31379.588,"end":31403.723,"text":"第4條、第5條的修正動議有沒有問題?看起來都蠻順的。對,語意上都很順的。好,那我們就來處理囉。好,那我們第4條的叫行政院的修正條文通過,大家有沒有意見?沒有。好,那現在我們處理第5條。"},{"start":31405.305,"end":31410.272,"text":"第5條也是照我們行政院的條文修正動議通過有沒有問題來好謝謝"},{"start":31422.047,"end":31446.632,"text":"法治局這邊報告立法院法治局報告第5條現在修正之後的第二項有個擬定行人交通安全設施跟最後一下紅字部分前項行人交通安全設施改善計畫之擬定這兩項的擬定字不一樣現在建請主管機關再確認一下有哪個定字一般是確定的定了解把它修正為確定的定"},{"start":31447.503,"end":31473.432,"text":"OK 那我們就把文字統一啊把文字統一啊就是確定的定第五條你定就統一啊統一文字只有上面那個定不是不是確定的定"},{"start":31474.421,"end":31483.706,"text":"確定的定嗎?確定的定,統一啦,那是統一的寫法你訂有一個,這裡也有一個這不用改,那邊是不用改改第二項確定的定改成確定的定改"},{"start":31497.58,"end":31519.356,"text":"是只有改那個第二項的那一個擬定要改成確定的定你改的是對的啦你改的是對的啦署長你現在改的跟你們原版的定不一樣的我了解確定的定啦你要改成確定的定跟你們原版的就要改回來是是是"},{"start":31521.011,"end":31549.508,"text":"對,因為這個意思比較正確,因為那就是確定要執行的項目啦。這樣,你原版的要改嗎?是,是,是,不要緊。喔,這就要緊了,這...那個感覺,那個解釋就沒工了,有顏值盤跟沒顏值盤。也要改,這個也要改,對。這個擬定,因為它後面還有核電。還不一樣,那個不用改。因為它有擬定,後面還有核電。好,那我們行政大會這邊沒問題了吧?"},{"start":31551.749,"end":31552.49,"text":"行政院版本的修訂"},{"start":31574.707,"end":31576.048,"text":"現在我們就請議事人員先告本次審查的總..."},{"start":31604.854,"end":31613.165,"text":"要寫到說明欄,就那個處理的機制非固定的部分要寫在說明欄"},{"start":31617.406,"end":31635.894,"text":"這個會後再提供給你們應該是沒有問題因為主條文讓我們把說明欄包含前面要求要增加的那一些有講了有講了好不好你寫這樣本次修正條文中各個條文如需增加說明欄的立法理由請內政部經書將說明文字送至內政委員會納入審查"},{"start":31640.436,"end":31662.933,"text":"因為我們今天可能會無保留出去嘛對不對所以現在變成說假設你們寫的有問題的話那在什麼地方確認可能不交協商啊可能不交協商啊我們今天可能是要不交協商啊"},{"start":31667.889,"end":31668.33,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":31689.81,"end":31690.411,"text":"將確定之說明文字"},{"start":31706.295,"end":31733.202,"text":"本次修訂條文中各個條文如須增加說明欄的立法理由請內政部盡事將確定說明文字送至內政部委員會內政委員會納入審查報告這樣OK嗎?OK喔?好"},{"start":31735.93,"end":31736.271,"text":"主席"},{"start":31745.669,"end":31773.083,"text":"宣讀行人交通安全設施條例草案審查總結果造行政院提案通過者有法案名稱第二條、第三條、第六條、第七條、第八條、第十條、第十一條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條、第十四條修正通過的有第一條、第四條、第五條、第九條不予採納有黃捷委員提案第二條、第十三條、第十四條宣讀完畢"},{"start":31779.884,"end":31800.209,"text":"請問各位委員照剛才協商結果通過請問有沒有異議沒有異議我們就通過本次審查會議通過條文條次引用條文部分文字相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":31805.684,"end":31809.067,"text":"以下決議討論事項行人交通安全設施條例草案"},{"start":31836.426,"end":31849.301,"text":"案與並案審查完盡,擬具審查報告提報院會討論。請問在場委員需不需要經黨團協商?"},{"start":31849.301,"end":31849.661,"text":"不需要。"},{"start":31857.422,"end":31871.293,"text":"不需要黨團協商本案在院會討論時有本席無召集人齊名做補充說明本次議程處理完畢現在散會"},{"start":31890.941,"end":31892.661,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":31906.545,"end":31915.671,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人發言委員黃捷等16人"},{"start":31930.983,"end":31931.164,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}