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不可以嘛 不可以嘛一般勞工 勞動部跟一般的企業講說勞工不可以連續上七天班但是勞動部勞動部他叫別人不能這樣做喔但是他現在在內部要求他們員工可能假日通通都要上班要上七天班人事長說可以"},{"start":174.665,"end":203.611,"text":"人事長剛剛講說只要特殊需求就可以所以因為我們服務如果是公務人員他服務的公共事務他有特殊的需要所以OK的嘛OK的嘛所以勞動所以那這樣子因為剛剛勞動部特別啊那個員工還說啊他們被下封口令說他們的勞動部的長官要求他們不能對外宣傳那如果按照副人事長的講法這是OK的啊這個因為是服務公眾嘛所以你們又不是一般的勞工你連續上期天班有什麼好講的"},{"start":204.531,"end":223.063,"text":"那幹嘛要下封口令啊?我現在不管是不是特別原因嘛反正現在就是說有上班嘛那你的意思是說OK嘛因為特殊原因OK嘛那為什麼要下封口令?為什麼要下封口令?你覺得你揣測一下"},{"start":224.223,"end":241.489,"text":"為什麼怕人家知道?為什麼怕人家知道?所以我是覺得部長的這個您的宣誓啦感覺上好像公務人員假日上班你也不覺得有怎麼樣你是覺得OK的啦那…靜情形才可以啦"},{"start":243.05,"end":265.045,"text":"那一般企業可不可以特殊情形然後找勞工連續上企業辦可不可以一般企業可不可以那看他符不符合勞基法的相關規定那符不符合嘛符不符合所以我就你不知道我們那個人事行政總署的官員居然連勞基法的規定不知道雖然不是你主管業務但是你是管公務人員的那你連勞工的相關規定都不曉得我真的是蠻訝異的那接下來請主計長請主計長"},{"start":269.724,"end":294.489,"text":"主計長跟審計長一起好了,因為我節省時間委員好主計長,那個,還是勞動部的問題啊那個前勞動部長挪用了就業安定基金然後去辦演唱會,花了365萬那剛剛審計長有說會調查嘛,會調查我就問啦,請問一下一般的機關在使用預算的時候,要不要審計蓋章"},{"start":296.36,"end":323.314,"text":"要不要?要不要主計蓋章?對不起,要不要主計蓋章?要不要?呃,他會有請購的一個程序你需不需要蓋章?回答問題就好,需要嘛齁那合宵的時候要不要主計蓋章?要那如果說到時候調查出來許民春這個東西是不應該的那主計,主計要負什麼責任?這個部分因為我們必須要看第一個他提出來的時候他是寫舉辦性別工作平等相關的一個規範"},{"start":324.568,"end":351.485,"text":"他在請購的時候經過那個主計他就認為他要辦這個業務是OK的所以他如果有欺騙主計的行為所以他當事人要對他的事實做負責那主計就是你是隨便蓋章喔不是他是就程序的一個程序蓋章而已嘛但是實際上大家期待主計是要審核嘛不是說只是程序上蓋章而已嘛好另外一個我問一下那個謝怡榮前分署長"},{"start":352.298,"end":358.97,"text":"他挪用了一百多萬就要你進行去裝潢他的辦公室可以嗎?主計可以嗎?"},{"start":360.041,"end":382.187,"text":"這個部也必須要看,因為當初他...不是,這就不可以啊我跟你講今天根據勞發署自己的說法說救安基金可以為了要提供服務必要可以去裝潢辦公室但是要符合比例原則啊所以當時主計在看的時候你就會發現說哇,你拿一百多萬去裝潢辦公室有這個必要嗎?就不應該蓋章啊那時候怎麼會就蓋了咧?"},{"start":385.108,"end":396.178,"text":"然後勞動部的次長說非常不妥當那非常不妥當結果咧還不是一樣讓他去做請問一下假設部長要裝到辦公室要不要上次長那邊"},{"start":398.018,"end":417.427,"text":"不知道看他們內部的審核的成績但是主計一定會嘛你是不是找個時間各位我問完了我再一句話就好第一個就是申請的時候要蓋章合效要蓋章那你都沒有發現說他這個是非常不符合比例原則嗎"},{"start":419.505,"end":437.582,"text":"因為這個部分我們也是要查一下他實際的狀況是怎麼樣才有辦法跟委員來報告的好那請你查一下好不好稍微那個查一次一下好那就是我想在這裡那個主計長盡速盡速那個查核的資料送給那個葉言之委員好謝謝謝謝葉言之"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:26:43.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:26:44.335000+08:00","text":"主席好，麻煩請人事行政總處。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T12:26:45.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:26:51.670000+08:00","text":"人事行政總處副人事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:26:57.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:27:18.532000+08:00","text":"副人事長你好，剛剛有勞動部內部的員工爆料，新任的勞動部長在11月30日跟12月1日，每天早上9點鐘，第一天是到5點，第二天是到4點，連續兩天都要求同仁跟他做業務報告。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:27:19.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:27:29.480000+08:00","text":"裡面有的同仁是連續兩天要上班，包括陳次長明仁，還有綜合規劃司的同仁，連續兩天都要上班。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:27:31.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:27:48.016000+08:00","text":"這位內部員工就很不高興，勞動部一天到晚跟其他企業宣傳，說HR不能七天上班，可是他們卻必須要犧牲休假的時間，假日連續兩天來上班，這是剛剛勞動部的人講的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:27:48.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:27:54.883000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下副人事長，在公家機關，公務人員是可以這樣子連續上班的嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:27:57.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:07.281000+08:00","text":"當然原則上我們是週休二日，但是如果有特殊的需要，或勤務上、業務上的需要來加班，是可以報加班。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:08.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:13.926000+08:00","text":"所以在法令上連續上七天班，在公務人員這個部分是OK的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:14.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:15.287000+08:00","text":"有特殊的情形或特殊需要。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:15.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:20.111000+08:00","text":"特殊情形，一般的企業可不可以因特殊情形連續上七天班，可以嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:23.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:24.545000+08:00","text":"一般企業？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:24.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:25.866000+08:00","text":"對，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:28.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:29.528000+08:00","text":"特殊情形就不用一例一休？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:29.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:33.310000+08:00","text":"一般企業如果雇主請他特別出來，那當然就是按勞基法的規定去補休。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:33.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:39.473000+08:00","text":"所以一般企業是可以在特殊情況之下，連續上七天班，你剛剛的意思我沒有聽錯吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:39.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:43.515000+08:00","text":"就是他如果是因為被雇主特別要求出來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:43.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:44.475000+08:00","text":"就可以是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:44.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:45.416000+08:00","text":"看有沒有適合勞基法。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:45.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:45.936000+08:00","text":"就可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:48.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:53.624000+08:00","text":"好，副人事長居然講了一個跟勞基法完全相反的……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:53.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:55.627000+08:00","text":"沒有，我是說如果符合勞基法規定才可以。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:55.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:28:56.589000+08:00","text":"那我就問你嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:28:56.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:02.278000+08:00","text":"我就問一般企業的勞工可不可以連續上七天班，可不可以這問題很難回答嗎？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:02.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:02.638000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:03.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:03.700000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:04.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:04.681000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:06.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:08.316000+08:00","text":"一般勞工的話當然他也要有休息跟請假法規……","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:08.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:08.816000+08:00","text":"不可以嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:12.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:15.840000+08:00","text":"勞動部跟一般的企業說，勞工不可以連續上七天班。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:17.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:30.466000+08:00","text":"勞動部叫別人不能這樣做，但是在內部要求員工假日統統都要上班，要上七天班，人事長說可以，人事長剛剛說只要特殊需求就可以！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:31.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:35.827000+08:00","text":"因為如果是公務人員，他服務的公共事務有特別的需求……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:35.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:36.187000+08:00","text":"所以OK的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:39.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:48.129000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛勞動部的員工還特別說，他們被下封口令，說勞動部的長官要求他們不能對外宣傳。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:48.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:51.190000+08:00","text":"如果按照副人事長的講法，這是OK的啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:51.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:29:53.030000+08:00","text":"因為是服務公眾嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:29:53.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:01.053000+08:00","text":"你們又不是一般的勞工，連續上七天班有什麼好講的，那幹嘛要下封口令啊？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:01.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:02.053000+08:00","text":"他如果是例假日出來，應該是會有特別經過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:01.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:10.219000+08:00","text":"我現在不管是不是特別的原因，反正現在就是有上班，你的意思是OK嘛！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:10.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:11.640000+08:00","text":"因為特殊原因OK嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:11.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:13.081000+08:00","text":"那為什麼要下封口令？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:15.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:17.803000+08:00","text":"你揣測一下，幹嘛怕人家知道？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:17.803000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:22.245000+08:00","text":"這我無從去揣測。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:22.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:31.949000+08:00","text":"所以我是覺得副人事長的宣示，感覺上好像公務人員假日上班，你也不覺得有怎麼樣，你覺得是OK的！","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:33.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:34.469000+08:00","text":"要特定情形才可以啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:36.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:40.413000+08:00","text":"那一般企業可不可以因特殊情形，然後找勞工連續上七天班，一般企業可不可以？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:40.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:42.354000+08:00","text":"那看他符不符合勞基法的相關……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:42.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:43.095000+08:00","text":"那符不符合？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副人事長秉洲","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:43.095000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:45.036000+08:00","text":"那就看勞動部的……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:45.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:45.356000+08:00","text":"你不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:45.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:58.025000+08:00","text":"我們人事行政總處的官員，居然連勞基法的規定都不知道，雖然不是你的主管業務，但你是管公務人員的，你連勞工的相關規定都不曉得，我也是蠻訝異的，接下來請主計長。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T12:30:58.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:30:58.045000+08:00","text":"請主計長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:02.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:04.624000+08:00","text":"主計長跟審計長一起好了，因為我節省時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:04.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:06.145000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:06.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:20.848000+08:00","text":"主計長，還是勞動部的問題，前勞動部長挪用了就業安定基金去辦演唱會，花了365萬，剛剛審計長有說會調查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:21.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:31.121000+08:00","text":"我請問一下，一般的機關在使用預算的時候，要不要主計蓋章？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:33.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:35.303000+08:00","text":"它會有一個請購的程序。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:35.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:37.504000+08:00","text":"需不需要蓋章，回答問題就好，需要嗎？需要。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:38.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:40.246000+08:00","text":"那核銷的時候要不要主計蓋章？要。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:41.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:31:47.450000+08:00","text":"如果到時候調查出來，許銘春這個東西是不應該的，那主計要負什麼責任？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:31:48.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:01.971000+08:00","text":"這個部分因為我們必須要看，他提出來的時候是寫舉辦性別工作平等相關的案子，那他在請購的時候，主計就認為他要辦這個業務是OK的。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:02.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:05.193000+08:00","text":"所以如果有欺騙主計的行為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:05.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:08.935000+08:00","text":"是，所以當事人要對他的事實做負責。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:08.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:10.676000+08:00","text":"那主計你是隨便蓋章喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:10.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:12.757000+08:00","text":"不是，他是就程序的一個合法性……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:12.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:13.678000+08:00","text":"程序蓋章而已嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:13.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:17.240000+08:00","text":"但實際上大家期待主計是要審核嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:17.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:19.361000+08:00","text":"不是只是程序上蓋章而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:20.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:31.549000+08:00","text":"另外一個我問一下，謝宜容前分署長挪用了一百多萬就業安定基金，去裝潢他的辦公室，這可以嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:33.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:34.842000+08:00","text":"這個也必須要看，因為當初他……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:34.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:36.142000+08:00","text":"不是，這就不可以啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:36.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:45.824000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，今天根據勞發署自己的說法，說就安基金可以，為了要提供服務必要，可以去裝潢辦公室，但是要符合比例原則啊！是。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:46.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:49.625000+08:00","text":"所以當時主計在看的時候就會發現，哇！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:49.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:52.786000+08:00","text":"你拿一百多萬去裝潢辦公室，有這個必要嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:52.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:53.806000+08:00","text":"就不應該蓋章啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:54.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:32:55.167000+08:00","text":"當時怎麼就蓋了？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:32:58.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:02.972000+08:00","text":"然後勞動部次長說非常不妥當，結果呢？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:03.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:04.494000+08:00","text":"還不是一樣讓他去做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:06.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:09.178000+08:00","text":"請問一下，假設部長要裝潢辦公室，章要不要到次長那邊？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:11.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:12.719000+08:00","text":"看他們內部審核的層級嘛！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:12.719000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:13.879000+08:00","text":"對，看他們的流程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:13.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:15.120000+08:00","text":"但是主計一定會嘛！是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:16.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:19.002000+08:00","text":"主計長，你是不是找個時間……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:19.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:21.483000+08:00","text":"召委，我快問完了，我再一句話就好。好。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:24.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:30.427000+08:00","text":"第一個就是申請的時候要蓋章，核銷要蓋章，那你都沒有發現這是非常不符合比例原則嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:32.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:37.970000+08:00","text":"因為這部分我們也是要查一下實際的狀況是怎麼樣，才有辦法跟委員報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:38.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:41.273000+08:00","text":"好，那請你查一下，召委裁示一下。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:44.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:49.361000+08:00","text":"主計長，查核的資料儘速送給葉元之委員，謝謝。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T12:33:49.861000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:33:53.861000+08:00","text":"謝謝元之，接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。","quality":0.214}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1205,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時26分）主席好，麻煩請人事行政總處。"],["主席：人事行政總處副人事長。"],["葉委員元之：副人事長你好，剛剛有勞動部內部的員工爆料，新任的勞動部長在11月30日跟12月1日，每天早上9點鐘，第一天是到5點，第二天是到4點，連續兩天都要求同仁跟他做業務報告。裡面有的同仁是連續兩天要上班，包括陳次長明仁，還有綜合規劃司的同仁，連續兩天都要上班。這位內部員工就很不高興，勞動部一天到晚跟其他企業宣傳，說HR不能七天上班，可是他們卻必須要犧牲休假的時間，假日連續兩天來上班，這是剛剛勞動部的人講的。我想請教一下副人事長，在公家機關，公務人員是可以這樣子連續上班的嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：當然原則上我們是週休二日，但是如果有特殊的需要，或勤務上、業務上的需要來加班，是可以報加班。"],["葉委員元之：所以在法令上連續上七天班，在公務人員這個部分是OK的？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有特殊的情形或特殊需要。"],["葉委員元之：特殊情形，一般的企業可不可以因特殊情形連續上七天班，可以嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般企業？"],["葉委員元之：對，可以嗎？特殊情形就不用一例一休？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般企業如果雇主請他特別出來，那當然就是按勞基法的規定去補休。"],["葉委員元之：所以一般企業是可以在特殊情況之下，連續上七天班，你剛剛的意思我沒有聽錯吧？"],["李副人事長秉洲：就是他如果是因為被雇主特別要求出來……"],["葉委員元之：就可以是不是？"],["李副人事長秉洲：看有沒有適合勞基法。"],["葉委員元之：就可以？好，副人事長居然講了一個跟勞基法完全相反的……"],["李副人事長秉洲：沒有，我是說如果符合勞基法規定才可以。"],["葉委員元之：那我就問你嘛！我就問一般企業的勞工可不可以連續上七天班，可不可以這問題很難回答嗎？可不可以？可不可以？可不可以？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般勞工的話當然他也要有休息跟請假法規……"],["葉委員元之：不可以嘛！勞動部跟一般的企業說，勞工不可以連續上七天班。勞動部叫別人不能這樣做，但是在內部要求員工假日統統都要上班，要上七天班，人事長說可以，人事長剛剛說只要特殊需求就可以！"],["李副人事長秉洲：因為如果是公務人員，他服務的公共事務有特別的需求……"],["葉委員元之：所以OK的嘛！因為剛剛勞動部的員工還特別說，他們被下封口令，說勞動部的長官要求他們不能對外宣傳。如果按照副人事長的講法，這是OK的啊！因為是服務公眾嘛！你們又不是一般的勞工，連續上七天班有什麼好講的，那幹嘛要下封口令啊？"],["李副人事長秉洲：他如果是例假日出來，應該是會有特別經過……"],["葉委員元之：我現在不管是不是特別的原因，反正現在就是有上班，你的意思是OK嘛！因為特殊原因OK嘛！那為什麼要下封口令？你揣測一下，幹嘛怕人家知道？"],["李副人事長秉洲：這我無從去揣測。"],["葉委員元之：所以我是覺得副人事長的宣示，感覺上好像公務人員假日上班，你也不覺得有怎麼樣，你覺得是OK的！"],["李副人事長秉洲：要特定情形才可以啦！"],["葉委員元之：那一般企業可不可以因特殊情形，然後找勞工連續上七天班，一般企業可不可以？"],["李副人事長秉洲：那看他符不符合勞基法的相關……"],["葉委員元之：那符不符合？"],["李副人事長秉洲：那就看勞動部的……"],["葉委員元之：你不知道？我們人事行政總處的官員，居然連勞基法的規定都不知道，雖然不是你的主管業務，但你是管公務人員的，你連勞工的相關規定都不曉得，我也是蠻訝異的，接下來請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["葉委員元之：主計長跟審計長一起好了，因為我節省時間。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主計長，還是勞動部的問題，前勞動部長挪用了就業安定基金去辦演唱會，花了365萬，剛剛審計長有說會調查。我請問一下，一般的機關在使用預算的時候，要不要主計蓋章？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它會有一個請購的程序。"],["葉委員元之：需不需要蓋章，回答問題就好，需要嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：需要。"],["葉委員元之：那核銷的時候要不要主計蓋章？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要。"],["葉委員元之：如果到時候調查出來，許銘春這個東西是不應該的，那主計要負什麼責任？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分因為我們必須要看，他提出來的時候是寫舉辦性別工作平等相關的案子，那他在請購的時候，主計就認為他要辦這個業務是OK的。"],["葉委員元之：所以如果有欺騙主計的行為……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以當事人要對他的事實做負責。"],["葉委員元之：那主計你是隨便蓋章喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，他是就程序的一個合法性……"],["葉委員元之：程序蓋章而已嘛！但實際上大家期待主計是要審核嘛！不是只是程序上蓋章而已。另外一個我問一下，謝宜容前分署長挪用了一百多萬就業安定基金，去裝潢他的辦公室，這可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個也必須要看，因為當初他……"],["葉委員元之：不是，這就不可以啊！我跟你講，今天根據勞發署自己的說法，說就安基金可以，為了要提供服務必要，可以去裝潢辦公室，但是要符合比例原則啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以當時主計在看的時候就會發現，哇！你拿一百多萬去裝潢辦公室，有這個必要嗎？就不應該蓋章啊！當時怎麼就蓋了？然後勞動部次長說非常不妥當，結果呢？還不是一樣讓他去做。請問一下，假設部長要裝潢辦公室，章要不要到次長那邊？看他們內部審核的層級嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，看他們的流程。"],["葉委員元之：但是主計一定會嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：主計長，你是不是找個時間……"],["葉委員元之：召委，我快問完了，我再一句話就好。"],["主席：好。"],["葉委員元之：第一個就是申請的時候要蓋章，核銷要蓋章，那你都沒有發現這是非常不符合比例原則嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這部分我們也是要查一下實際的狀況是怎麼樣，才有辦法跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：好，那請你查一下，召委裁示一下。"],["主席：主計長，查核的資料儘速送給葉元之委員，謝謝。謝謝元之，接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}