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對不對"},{"start":44.775,"end":72.449,"text":"至少馬總統的慣例是這樣。您最了解,對。對啊對啊。那我不太懂為什麼賴總統要這麼神秘啊?是有什麼難言之隱呢?還是有什麼不可告人呢?我想就是出訪嘛,很多配套,那怎麼樣去做好公共訊息。好啦,部長今天也答不出來。今天就清楚了啦。因為所有的相關的報導。所以今天就會公佈了對不對?"},{"start":73.689,"end":97.784,"text":"就是會有進一步的對外的說明我是建議這種東西不用掉到他胃口去哪就去哪說實在也到底當然如果真的有特殊考量我就跟國人說清楚但顯然我看現在政府也沒交代為什麼為什麼別的總統會公佈那我們這一次賴總統要這麼神秘還是說神秘是賴總統的風格不知道但不管怎麼樣我們中視還是希望賴總統這個出訪順利成功"},{"start":101.547,"end":124.062,"text":"另外一個問題就是這一次再次請教部長我也不太懂為什麼陳總統、馬總統、蔡總統第一任當選不是八月出訪就是六月出訪大概都三個月內出訪了然後呢而且一定會去過境美國西岸也就是說僑胞最多的地方那這一次雖然你沒講到底是關島還是夏威夷但顯然因為"},{"start":125.103,"end":139.461,"text":"我對於出訪的路徑安排也有點概念啊你訪問南太平洋就不可能是到美國的本土去啦 對不對那一定要嘛就關島要嘛就夏威夷嘛 對不對那我就不懂為什麼這一次沒有相同的規劃為什麼這一次又不去美國的本土呢"},{"start":141.225,"end":156.093,"text":"最主要是太平洋這三個國家今年都在年底的時間是可以接待我們元首出訪他們也都在選舉從年初到年末包括帛琉也剛選完"},{"start":157.854,"end":169.909,"text":"因為他們都來參加520我打個段一點點其實這個因為大家每年選舉的安排是差不多時間的不管是美國也好友邦也好其實你講的選舉的考量在馬總統陳總統跟蔡總統也都是有阿"},{"start":175.493,"end":201.593,"text":"我們已經五年沒有去太平洋地區這些島國（我跟你講有跟部長如果是我在總統府當然除了你有特殊考量我跟你講我就去訪問巴拉圭然後就過境美國然後再馬上訪問南太平洋或是我訪問巴拉圭過境美國再轉到南太平洋都是可以的安排可是顯然你們今天南美跟南太是比較困難一點"},{"start":203.054,"end":225.667,"text":"我還是可以安排如果你有心安排飛過去你還是有辦法安排啦但是不管怎麼樣講就是說他不是互賜性的嘛你既可以訪問南美一樣可以訪問所謂南泰嘛他沒有互賜所以因此我不認為互賜是個理由但是我另外一件事情我要跟我要跟部長說齁其實坦白講為什麼大家會去在乎說今天總統當選之後"},{"start":228.088,"end":257.088,"text":"這在最快時間內能夠過境美國同時過境美國本土是跟一個東西有關就是跟臺灣民眾的安全想像有關你認不認同我們跟美國現在關係真的是很有互信的基礎對對對對對那我跟你講我跟部長說因為這互信基礎其實存在於您的嘴巴的說明但是對臺灣民眾來講美國是我們重要的那個所謂的非常重要的盟友嘛對不對"},{"start":257.708,"end":278.889,"text":"那這種情況之下台灣人民覺得看到總統今天一當選新總統一當選就能夠到美國本土去的時候他其實是會產生比較強的所謂安全想像這是為什麼歷來的總統都把當選之後造訪美國本土作為第一要務就是因為台灣人民的民心的安定很重要"},{"start":279.369,"end":294.528,"text":"那你今天過去總統都做得到到美國本土訪問那給予台灣人民足夠的安全想像而如果賴總統今天做不到這件事情的話那你也不能怪說今天房間有些人對這事情產生擔憂啊這擔憂應該也很合理吧對不對"},{"start":295.91,"end":323.591,"text":"這擔憂不太需要但很快就會澄清你覺得不太需要但是我剛剛就說你因為我們大概從比如說不管是蔡總統或賴總統其實我們都跟美國都有很好的溝通協調有關出訪的事情那包括去年賴總統當副總統當總統特使到巴拉圭過去過去做得很好未來要做更好啦但是我要跟部長說反過來說就是說難道您覺得說其實總統當選在最短時間內過境美國本土其實是一點都不重要"},{"start":324.841,"end":336.07,"text":"過去總統這樣做其實也不重要就想太多也不用管台灣人民到底有沒有安全的想像因為這一定基於主客觀跟雙方面覺得最適當的時間跟地點因為最近因為太平洋三個國家他們就一直邀請我們要去而且他們都今年初這是馬薩爾群島跟獨瓦魯選出新的總統跟總理阿伯留又就是總統連任所以這個時間我們認為三個國家排在一起"},{"start":353.363,"end":374.264,"text":"我還是跟部長講因為真的不是互賜啦當然賴總統累一點點跑個兩趟maybe OK啦但是真的不是互賜如果你今天在八月你學馬總統陳總統或是蔡總統八月你就去訪問巴拉圭過境美國那你現在一樣可以訪問南泰啊所以我才講不是互賜嘛"},{"start":375.765,"end":404.46,"text":"有時候我們訪問也會考慮到他們的比如說就職阿或什麼樣特殊的慶典阿我知道啦當然會有但是說實在話真的有心要訪問齁你一定會找出一個方式安排啦這個就是這當然就是外交部要努力的地方嘛因為不要輕忽這個所謂的安全想因為說實在話我自己就會非常擔心阿因為我擔心的是什麼我擔心是說不要舉例子有人就說欸其實不要在乎這些東西這些東西也不重要"},{"start":405.02,"end":432.905,"text":"那我告訴你不重要就更重要為什麼?如果這麼不重要的事情也就能夠換得人民的安全想像就這一點外交部都做不到那我覺得對外交部能力會打折扣啦或者還是說今天美國不讓你做得到那就抱歉那就不能怪人家覺得美國有依賴論所以這件事情不要以為它是表面上的象徵性它實際上攸關某些部分我們講安全想像拜託部長真的當然過去就過去啦後面趕快安排好不好"},{"start":433.949,"end":456.857,"text":"我們也有有序的安排因為立法院也有編列預算嘛就像我們今年也一定是說在出訪上雖然是年底壓軸雖然是先到南派還有綜合的我們的規劃後續的出訪也會依據委員提醒的重點那部長再加油一下謝謝你一起努力謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:56:40+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:56:41+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T12:56:41+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:56:42+08:00","text":"請林佳龍部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:56:42+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:56:43+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:56:43+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T12:56:44+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:56:40.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:56:42.910000+08:00","text":"賴總統是後天11月30日要出訪南太平洋的友邦，對不對？是。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:56:42.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:56:43.370000+08:00","text":"請問部長，他會不會過境夏威夷跟關島？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:01.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:05.054000+08:00","text":"這個部分總統府方面會進一步對外說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:06.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:20.865000+08:00","text":"我很好奇，因為我也在總統府工作過，也陪馬總統出訪過很多次，馬總統任內歷次出訪，如果有安排過境美國，公布出訪行程的同時，也會同時公布過境地點，沒錯吧？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:20.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:26.556000+08:00","text":"慣例是這樣嘛，至少馬總統的慣例是這樣，對不對？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:26.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:28.377000+08:00","text":"您最了解，對。對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:29.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:35.480000+08:00","text":"那我就不太懂，為什麼賴總統要這麼神秘，是有什麼難言之隱？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:35.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:36.821000+08:00","text":"還是有什麼不可告人呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:37.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:44.545000+08:00","text":"我想出訪有很多的配套，怎麼樣去做好公共訊息……好啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:45.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:47.987000+08:00","text":"部長也答不出來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:47.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:51.208000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有，今天就清楚啦，因為所有相關的配套……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:51.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:52.449000+08:00","text":"所以今天就會公布了，對不對？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:53.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:57:55.991000+08:00","text":"就是會有進一步的對外說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:57:56.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:58:11.761000+08:00","text":"我建議這種東西就不用吊大家胃口，去哪就去哪，當然如果真的有特殊考量，就跟國人說清楚，但顯然現在政府也沒交代，為什麼別的總統會公布，這次賴總統要這麼神秘？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:58:12.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:58:14.362000+08:00","text":"還是說神秘是賴總統的風格？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:58:15.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:58:17.764000+08:00","text":"但不管怎麼樣，我們都還是希望賴總統這次出訪順利成功。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:58:21.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:58:38.739000+08:00","text":"另外一個問題再請教部長，我不太懂，為什麼陳總統、馬總統、蔡總統第一任當選，不是8月出訪，就是6月出訪，大概都在三個月內出訪，而且一定會過境美國西岸，也就是僑胞最多的地方。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:58:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:58:51.771000+08:00","text":"這一次雖然你沒有講到底是關島還是夏威夷，因為我對出訪的路徑安排也有一點概念，訪問南太平洋就不可能到美國的本土，要不就是關島，要不就是夏威夷，對不對？","quality":0.779},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:58:54.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:58:57.719000+08:00","text":"我就不懂，為什麼這一次沒有相同的規劃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:58:57.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:58:59.240000+08:00","text":"為什麼這次不去美國本土？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:59:01.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:59:16.073000+08:00","text":"最主要是南太平洋這三個國家，今年都是年底的時間可以接待我們元首出訪，他們從年初到年末都在選舉，包括帛琉也剛選完。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:59:17.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:59:18.795000+08:00","text":"因為他們也都來參加520……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:59:19.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:59:29.589000+08:00","text":"部長，我打斷一點點，其實大家每年選舉的安排都是差不多的時間，不管是美國也好，友邦也好，你講的選舉的考量，在馬總統、陳總統跟蔡總統也都有啊！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:59:29.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:59:39.957000+08:00","text":"可是我們已經五年沒有去太平洋地區這些島國訪問。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:59:39.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:59:57.430000+08:00","text":"我跟部長說，如果是我在總統府，除了有特殊考量，我想就去訪問巴拉圭，然後過境美國，再馬上訪問南太平洋，或是訪問巴拉圭、過境美國再轉到南太平洋，都是可以的安排啊！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T12:59:58.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T12:59:59.372000+08:00","text":"可是顯然你們今天……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T12:59:59.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:00:01.593000+08:00","text":"南美跟南太是比較困難一點的。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:00:03.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:00:18.043000+08:00","text":"還是可以安排，如果你有心安排，飛過去，你還是有辦法安排啦，但是不管怎麼樣講就是它不是互斥性的嘛，你既可以訪問南美，一樣可以訪問南太，它沒有互斥，因此我不認為互斥是個理由。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:00:18.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:00:32.451000+08:00","text":"但是另外一件事情我要跟部長說，其實坦白講為什麼大家會去在乎今天總統當選之後在最快時間內能夠過境美國、同時過境美國本土？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:00:32.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:00:37.735000+08:00","text":"是跟一個東西有關，就是跟臺灣民眾的安全想像有關，你認不認同？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:00:38.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:00:42.658000+08:00","text":"我們跟美國現在關係真的是很有互信的基礎……對、對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:00:42.658000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:00:45.540000+08:00","text":"而且越來越好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:00:45.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:00:57.088000+08:00","text":"我跟部長說，因為這個互信基礎其實存在於您嘴巴的說明，但是對臺灣民眾來講，美國是我們非常重要的盟友，對不對？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:00:58.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:18.869000+08:00","text":"這種情況之下，臺灣人民覺得看到總統一當選就能夠到美國本土去的時候，他其實是會產生比較強的安全想像，這是為什麼歷來的總統都把當選之後造訪美國本土做為第一要務，就是因為臺灣人民民心的安定很重要。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:20.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:34.528000+08:00","text":"過去總統都做得到到美國本土訪問，給予臺灣人民足夠的安全想像，而如果賴總統今天做不到這件事情的話，那你也不能怪說今天坊間有些人對這件事情產生擔憂，這擔憂應該也很合理吧，對不對？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:35.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:37.151000+08:00","text":"這擔憂不太需要，但很快就會澄清。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:37.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:39.072000+08:00","text":"你覺得不太需要，但是我剛剛就說你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:39.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:46.338000+08:00","text":"因為我們大概從……不管是蔡總統或賴總統，其實我們跟美國都有很好的溝通協調，有關出訪的事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:46.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:46.618000+08:00","text":"那這樣……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:47.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:50.921000+08:00","text":"包括去年賴總統當副總統時……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:50.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:51.921000+08:00","text":"我換個角度問……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:50.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:52.282000+08:00","text":"當總統特使到巴拉圭過境也是……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:53.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:01:54.944000+08:00","text":"很好啊，過去做得很好，未來要做更好啦！是。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:01:55.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:09.104000+08:00","text":"但是我要跟部長說，反過來說，難道您覺得其實總統當選後在最短時間內過境美國本土是一點都不重要，過去總統這樣做其實也不重要，就想太多，也不用管臺灣人民到底有沒有安全想像？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:09.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:12.767000+08:00","text":"因為這一定基於主客觀跟雙方面覺得最適當的時間跟地點，因為最近太平洋3個國家他們就一直邀請我們要去，而且他們都在今年初，就是馬紹爾群島跟……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:12.767000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:13.767000+08:00","text":"受歡迎當然很好，馬總統也有去訪問南太……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:13.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:14.769000+08:00","text":"吐瓦魯選出新的總統跟總理……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:14.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:15.769000+08:00","text":"蔡總統也有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:15.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:15.750000+08:00","text":"帛琉又是總統連任……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:15.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:16.750000+08:00","text":"對、對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:15.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:16.050000+08:00","text":"所以這個時間我們認為3個國家排在一起最好。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:33.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:02:54.224000+08:00","text":"我還是跟部長講，因為真的不是互斥，當然賴總統累一點點跑個兩趟maybe OK，但是真的不是互斥，如果你今天學馬總統或是陳總統或是蔡總統，8月就去訪問巴拉圭，過境美國，那你現在一樣可以訪問南太呀，所以我才講不是互斥，這個我必須說……","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:02:55.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:03:01.468000+08:00","text":"有時候我們訪問也會考慮到他們的……比如就職或什麼樣特殊的慶典。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:03:01.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:03:19.457000+08:00","text":"我知道啦，當然會有，但是說實在話，真的有心要訪問，你一定會找出一個方式安排，這個當然是外交部要努力的地方，因為不要輕忽所謂的安全想像，說實在話，我自己就會非常擔心，因為我擔心的是什麼？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:03:19.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:03:27.320000+08:00","text":"我擔心是，比方舉個例子，有人就說其實不要在乎這些東西、這些東西也不重要，那我告訴你，不重要就更重要!為什麼？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:03:27.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:03:47.764000+08:00","text":"如果這麼不重要的事情就能夠換得人民的安全想像，就這一點如果外交部都做不到，那我就對外交部的能力會打折扣；還是說今天美國不讓你做得到，那就抱歉，那就會不能怪人家覺得美國有疑賴論，所以這件事情不要以為它是表面上的象徵性，它實際上攸關某些部分，我們講的安全想像。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:03:48.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:03:52.885000+08:00","text":"拜託部長，當然過去就過去了，後面趕快安排好不好？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:03:53.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:03:56.190000+08:00","text":"好，我們會有序的安排。好。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:03:57.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:03:58.951000+08:00","text":"因為立法院也有編列預算嘛！對。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:03:59.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:04:14.236000+08:00","text":"就像我們今年也有預訂，出訪上是在年底壓軸，雖然是先到南太，但我們有綜合的規劃，後續的出訪會依據委員提醒的重點。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-28T13:04:14.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:04:16.237000+08:00","text":"好，那部長再加油一下，謝謝你。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2024-11-28T13:04:16.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-28T13:04:16.857000+08:00","text":"好，一起努力，謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T13:04:17.357000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:04:20.499857+08:00","text":"謝謝羅智強委員，部長請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T13:04:20.799857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:04:25.942714+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-28T13:04:26.242714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-28T13:04:30.528429+08:00","text":"接下來我們請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時56分）有請部長。"],["主席：請林佳龍部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：賴總統是後天11月30日要出訪南太平洋的友邦，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：請問部長，他會不會過境夏威夷跟關島？"],["林部長佳龍：這個部分總統府方面會進一步對外說明。"],["羅委員智強：我很好奇，因為我也在總統府工作過，也陪馬總統出訪過很多次，馬總統任內歷次出訪，如果有安排過境美國，公布出訪行程的同時，也會同時公布過境地點，沒錯吧？慣例是這樣嘛，至少馬總統的慣例是這樣，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：您最了解，對。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！那我就不太懂，為什麼賴總統要這麼神秘，是有什麼難言之隱？還是有什麼不可告人呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我想出訪有很多的配套，怎麼樣去做好公共訊息……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！部長也答不出來……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，沒有，今天就清楚啦，因為所有相關的配套……"],["羅委員智強：所以今天就會公布了，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：就是會有進一步的對外說明。"],["羅委員智強：我建議這種東西就不用吊大家胃口，去哪就去哪，當然如果真的有特殊考量，就跟國人說清楚，但顯然現在政府也沒交代，為什麼別的總統會公布，這次賴總統要這麼神秘？還是說神秘是賴總統的風格？但不管怎麼樣，我們都還是希望賴總統這次出訪順利成功。","另外一個問題再請教部長，我不太懂，為什麼陳總統、馬總統、蔡總統第一任當選，不是8月出訪，就是6月出訪，大概都在三個月內出訪，而且一定會過境美國西岸，也就是僑胞最多的地方。這一次雖然你沒有講到底是關島還是夏威夷，因為我對出訪的路徑安排也有一點概念，訪問南太平洋就不可能到美國的本土，要不就是關島，要不就是夏威夷，對不對？我就不懂，為什麼這一次沒有相同的規劃？為什麼這次不去美國本土？"],["林部長佳龍：最主要是南太平洋這三個國家，今年都是年底的時間可以接待我們元首出訪，他們從年初到年末都在選舉，包括帛琉也剛選完。因為他們也都來參加520……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我打斷一點點，其實大家每年選舉的安排都是差不多的時間，不管是美國也好，友邦也好，你講的選舉的考量，在馬總統、陳總統跟蔡總統也都有啊！"],["林部長佳龍：可是我們已經五年沒有去太平洋地區這些島國訪問。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，如果是我在總統府，除了有特殊考量，我想就去訪問巴拉圭，然後過境美國，再馬上訪問南太平洋，或是訪問巴拉圭、過境美國再轉到南太平洋，都是可以的安排啊！可是顯然你們今天……"],["林部長佳龍：南美跟南太是比較困難一點的。"],["羅委員智強：還是可以安排，如果你有心安排，飛過去，你還是有辦法安排啦，但是不管怎麼樣講就是它不是互斥性的嘛，你既可以訪問南美，一樣可以訪問南太，它沒有互斥，因此我不認為互斥是個理由。","但是另外一件事情我要跟部長說，其實坦白講為什麼大家會去在乎今天總統當選之後在最快時間內能夠過境美國、同時過境美國本土？是跟一個東西有關，就是跟臺灣民眾的安全想像有關，你認不認同？"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟美國現在關係真的是很有互信的基礎……"],["羅委員智強：對、對！"],["林部長佳龍：而且越來越好。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，因為這個互信基礎其實存在於您嘴巴的說明，但是對臺灣民眾來講，美國是我們非常重要的盟友，對不對？這種情況之下，臺灣人民覺得看到總統一當選就能夠到美國本土去的時候，他其實是會產生比較強的安全想像，這是為什麼歷來的總統都把當選之後造訪美國本土做為第一要務，就是因為臺灣人民民心的安定很重要。過去總統都做得到到美國本土訪問，給予臺灣人民足夠的安全想像，而如果賴總統今天做不到這件事情的話，那你也不能怪說今天坊間有些人對這件事情產生擔憂，這擔憂應該也很合理吧，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：這擔憂不太需要，但很快就會澄清。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得不太需要，但是我剛剛就說你……"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們大概從……不管是蔡總統或賴總統，其實我們跟美國都有很好的溝通協調，有關出訪的事情……"],["羅委員智強：那這樣……"],["林部長佳龍：包括去年賴總統當副總統時……"],["羅委員智強：我換個角度問……"],["林部長佳龍：當總統特使到巴拉圭過境也是……"],["羅委員智強：很好啊，過去做得很好，未來要做更好啦！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：但是我要跟部長說，反過來說，難道您覺得其實總統當選後在最短時間內過境美國本土是一點都不重要，過去總統這樣做其實也不重要，就想太多，也不用管臺灣人民到底有沒有安全想像？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這一定基於主客觀跟雙方面覺得最適當的時間跟地點，因為最近太平洋3個國家他們就一直邀請我們要去，而且他們都在今年初，就是馬紹爾群島跟……"],["羅委員智強：受歡迎當然很好，馬總統也有去訪問南太……"],["林部長佳龍：吐瓦魯選出新的總統跟總理……"],["羅委員智強：蔡總統也有……"],["林部長佳龍：帛琉又是總統連任……"],["羅委員智強：對、對、對、對。"],["林部長佳龍：所以這個時間我們認為3個國家排在一起最好。"],["羅委員智強：我還是跟部長講，因為真的不是互斥，當然賴總統累一點點跑個兩趟maybe OK，但是真的不是互斥，如果你今天學馬總統或是陳總統或是蔡總統，8月就去訪問巴拉圭，過境美國，那你現在一樣可以訪問南太呀，所以我才講不是互斥，這個我必須說……"],["林部長佳龍：有時候我們訪問也會考慮到他們的……比如就職或什麼樣特殊的慶典。"],["羅委員智強：我知道啦，當然會有，但是說實在話，真的有心要訪問，你一定會找出一個方式安排，這個當然是外交部要努力的地方，因為不要輕忽所謂的安全想像，說實在話，我自己就會非常擔心，因為我擔心的是什麼？我擔心是，比方舉個例子，有人就說其實不要在乎這些東西、這些東西也不重要，那我告訴你，不重要就更重要!為什麼？如果這麼不重要的事情就能夠換得人民的安全想像，就這一點如果外交部都做不到，那我就對外交部的能力會打折扣；還是說今天美國不讓你做得到，那就抱歉，那就會不能怪人家覺得美國有疑賴論，所以這件事情不要以為它是表面上的象徵性，它實際上攸關某些部分，我們講的安全想像。拜託部長，當然過去就過去了，後面趕快安排好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會有序的安排。"],["羅委員智強：好。"],["林部長佳龍：因為立法院也有編列預算嘛！"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["林部長佳龍：就像我們今年也有預訂，出訪上是在年底壓軸，雖然是先到南太，但我們有綜合的規劃，後續的出訪會依據委員提醒的重點。"],["羅委員智強：好，那部長再加油一下，謝謝你。"],["林部長佳龍：好，一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員，部長請回。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在場。","接下來我們請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}