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2案。．"},{"start":2123.996,"end":2136.384,"text":"一、第五目國際合作及公懷向下加強雙邊及多邊合作有關拉丁美洲及加勒比海斯預算凍結50萬元案。二、第六目一般建築及設備第一屆營建工程向下構建駐外機構觀管設預算凍結50萬元案。宣讀完畢"},{"start":2141.047,"end":2157.971,"text":"好,我們在上一屆的時候通過的書面報告後使得動之這個是不用經同意的請問在場各位有沒有異議沒有異議的話均同意動之提報院會我們待會在整個詢答結束後會處理需同意的案子那個是屬於討論事項"},{"start":2161.533,"end":2179.963,"text":"我們現在今天會議邀請外交部報告美國2024年大選過程對我國及印太地區衝擊及影響以及相關預算的解凍案並備質詢那現在請田政務司長上台就專題跟解凍案進行報告"},{"start":2193.991,"end":2220.716,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安首先要感謝貴委員會邀請外交部前來就美國2024年大選過程對我國及印太地區的衝擊及影響進行專題報告並備質詢以下僅提出本部說明進行質教美國即將於本年11月5日舉行第60屆總統選舉"},{"start":2223.871,"end":2249.57,"text":"美國作為世界最大的經濟體及軍事支出最高的國家對於地緣政治、全球經濟乃至於和平及穩定均具有極大的影響力其中印太地區位處於美中影響力競爭的前線美國政策立場自然是動見觀瞻觀察川普政府至現任的拜登政府可以發現美國擴大"},{"start":2252.832,"end":2281.166,"text":"對包含在臺灣內的印太地區投入的支援．及在區域內強化對中競爭的戰略方針．已經成為了民主共和兩黨的共識．而且具跨政府的延續性．目前美國大選已經確定將由川普拜登再度對決．無論最終何人當選．印太地區及我國對美的重要性．均將持續的提升"},{"start":2282.472,"end":2303.071,"text":"美國大選選舉的概況．隨著拜登總統及川普在本月的5日、超級星期二清取各州的初選．黨內僅存的對手相繼退選．選戰已確定進入拜川再度對決的大選節奏．兩人也將取得提名所需的黨代表票數．"},{"start":2304.392,"end":2309.995,"text":"考量現在距離大選還有7個多月．後續兩人的民調消長仍充滿了變數．整體選情仍屬難分宣誓"},{"start":2317.011,"end":2337.477,"text":"川普政府在2017年所提出的印太戰略為美中競爭揭開了序幕拜登政府上任後亦持續深化印太戰略的布局包括積極與印太地區盟友建立更緊密的安全夥伴關係協助台灣強化自我防衛能量"},{"start":2338.197,"end":2353.784,"text":"以及川普政府所強化的四方安全對話．及拜登政府創建的澳英美三方安全夥伴等印太區域重要安全機制．在美國均享有高度的朝野共識以及支持。"},{"start":2354.983,"end":2372.845,"text":"近年中國勢力於太平洋地區不斷擴張．反制中國惡意滲透已經成為美國不分黨派核心利益．納入自由聯合協定的包裹禮法案．剛剛獲得美國國會通過．並經拜登簽署完成立法．"},{"start":2373.766,"end":2396.947,"text":"使美國得在未來的20年持續提供馬薩爾群島﹐帛琉等台灣兩個友邦﹐以及米克歐尼西亞等71億美元的經濟援助﹐對反制中國的滲透﹐強化美國與我友邦的合作甚具重要的意義﹐與我國在太平洋地區的戰略意義相符合。無論選情如何發展﹐"},{"start":2397.881,"end":2426.326,"text":"每方都會延續對臺海的安全承諾。臺美的關係是基於民主的共享﹐自由及法治的普世價值﹐長期以來受到美國跨黨派、跨政府的高度支持﹐歷任美國政府不論任何執政黨均恪守臺灣關係法以及六項保證﹐確保臺灣具備自我防衛能力﹐並積極深化臺美各項領域的合作。"},{"start":2427.523,"end":2451.748,"text":"不論選舉結果如何﹐華府跨黨派挺台的力道仍然非常強勁﹐拜登或者川普兩人雖然在形式作風上較為不同﹐但美國對台的政策本質不會改變﹐具高度的延續性、一致性。近期美國承諾行政及國會部門展開對台安全承諾的事件包括﹐"},{"start":2452.708,"end":2471.723,"text":"拜登總統本年3月首度在國情諮問中強調美國支持台海和平穩定美國高層亦速度地明確強調美國對台安全承諾堅若磐石美國白宮日前提出之2025年會計年度預算首度單獨匡列對台的軍援預算"},{"start":2476.727,"end":2486.571,"text":"美國的2024年快度年度綜合撥款法也首度的明文提供臺灣不少於3億美元的對外軍事融資無償軍援"},{"start":2488.651,"end":2515.902,"text":"這一周開議至今年國會已經通過了60項的臺灣相關的法案或決議案．內容涉及臺灣國際參與、安全合作．提升臺美互動的架構．強化經貿關係以及臺美教育合作等多元的內容．再次的證明臺美關係穩健發展的深厚基礎．不會因為政黨攻防或者民主選舉結果而有所變化．"},{"start":2517.014,"end":2540.6,"text":"美國強化結合某有及理念相近的國家公開聲明航行自由任務等具體行動傳達重視對臺海和平穩定的重要訊息。近年來美國積極地聯合理念相近的國家重申臺海和平穩定是以國際社會安全與繁榮不可或缺的一環包括在美日韓以及美歐盟等理念相近國家雙邊及三邊會談"},{"start":2543.441,"end":2562.355,"text":"G7領袖峰會等多邊場域都與中方．甚至跟中方高級會談時．均常態性地表達對臺海和平穩定之關切．強調反對以武力脅迫改變現狀．並持續聯合盟友執行航行自由的任務。"},{"start":2564.177,"end":2587.51,"text":"澳洲總理埃博尼斯的政府以及高層持續在各種國際場合公開表達支持臺海和平的穩定．反對片面改變現狀的立場。近年來澳紐部長級諮商會議、澳英部長級諮商會議．會後都聯合聲明公開表達臺海和平穩定的關切。印度近年來逐漸提升對海海議題的關注．"},{"start":2589.093,"end":2599.101,"text":"印度總理莫迪及外交部長蘇傑森近一年均曾公開提及臺灣科技的優勢。印度外交部也"},{"start":2600.034,"end":2626.023,"text":"也強調透過對話維持和平．並捍衛以規則為基礎的國際秩序。韓國自尹錫悅大統領就任後．持續在美日韓峰會等重要雙邊及多邊的場合．公開表達對台海和平穩定之關切．並稱台海和平是印太區域安全及繁榮不可或缺之要素．反對任何片面改變區域現象的企圖。"},{"start":2627.304,"end":2648.757,"text":"日本除去年防衛白皮書以及外交藍皮書稱台海和平穩定對國際社會安定及繁榮不可或缺外今年日本外相上川陽子也在國會政策演說時重申台海和平穩定之重要性顯示日本一貫高度重視台海議題"},{"start":2650.475,"end":2667.66,"text":"我因慎防美國選舉升溫下,兩岸議題遭受到嘲弄,成為政治攻防的議題。本部及相關駐外單位將持續與民主共和兩黨橫頻交往,以及維持與行政立法兩部門的充分溝通。"},{"start":2669.076,"end":2686.817,"text":"即使在當前歐洲及中東戰火瀰漫之下．美國仍持續強化在印太區域軍事部署．及與印太盟邦及友邦之協調．顯示美國印太戰略及印太地區之重視．均未受到影響"},{"start":2688.118,"end":2707.337,"text":"然我當然要持續密切關注．並且與美方密切的協調．以因應中國及北韓等勢力．會否圖謀在接近美國大選時期．意圖推進在印太區域之利益。外交部再次感謝大院及各位委員的支持與鼓勵"},{"start":2708.376,"end":2735.061,"text":"台美關係有數十年之堅實基礎．以及在美國政壇上難能可貴的跨黨派共識．本部將持續在這個基礎上．積極地拓展雙方面．以及多方面、多議題．多層次、多管道的全方位夥伴關係．並共同地捍衛以規則為基礎的國際秩序．促進台海及印太區域的和平、穩定及繁榮．"},{"start":2736.061,"end":2748.658,"text":"敬請大院委員先進部令指導．繼續給予本部大力的支持。謝謝。好,謝謝市長。那我們解凍案也是由您繼續報告嗎?是。好。"},{"start":2758.477,"end":2769.121,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位女士、各位先生大家好。承蒙大院外交及國防委員會安排本部主管113年度公開預算凍結項目進行解凍。"},{"start":2773.542,"end":2792.42,"text":"今日列入議程及有報告事項4案,一共220萬元．討論事項兩案,一共100萬元．合起來一共6個案子,320萬元．該等報告均已送交大院．這個部分已納入大院議案關係文書．敬請各委員參閱"},{"start":2794.193,"end":2811.505,"text":"為了持續推動各項重要的外交事務．敬請各位委員．以本長期以來．對外交工作之關注以及支持．蓄意督導以及鼓勵．並請同意解除上述各項書面報告解凍案．以利本部業務之順利推動。謝謝"},{"start":2818.389,"end":2841.016,"text":"好,謝謝田市長請坐我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點半發言截止登記如果有臨時提案請於10點半之前提出我們11點按照發言的情形在那個左右來進行處理現在第一位詢答委員是林楚瑩委員"},{"start":2850.369,"end":2878.201,"text":"謝謝主席,主席有請田政次來,田次林委員您早市長早今天開始之前我想先問個實事題好了就是不知道您有沒有看過這個現在在您的畫面當中右手邊的這個最新的民調就是這是一個從1992年就開始持續做的是由政大的選研中心所公布的"},{"start":2878.621,"end":2895.19,"text":"就是認為自己是台灣人的部分呢逐年上升從一開始92年的只有17.6%現在來到這是今年2月公佈的喔有61.7%同樣的自己自認是中國人的部分是創了新低只有2.4%不知道您有沒有看過這個民調"},{"start":2896.947,"end":2920.537,"text":"我多多少少有了解,隨著時間的提升,我們這個比例越來越大。好,為什麼我會特別問這個是,我想外交是我們主權的另外一個延伸。外交官們到國外去代表的就是我們中華民國,代表著台灣。有的時候這個定位定定,這個標,座標定對了,才能夠知道到底外交工作要如何來鞏固我們的主權。"},{"start":2921.477,"end":2927.502,"text":"那麼我相信今天外交官走出去都會告訴大家說我是來自於中華民國沒有問題對不對台灣人講得很大聲台灣的民眾也以台灣為榮但是如果說接下來這個最新的訊息就是我們的馬前總統要去中國了"},{"start":2939.11,"end":2959.24,"text":"那麼當他到了中國之後．他所釋出的訊息．跟現在最新的民調當中．沒什麼相同．甚至於在中間產生不同的時候．到底外交官在面對這些訊息的時候．該如何跟國際社會解釋馬英九最近要去中國．馬辦說台灣是中國的一部分"},{"start":2962.381,"end":2983.56,"text":"然後馬英九也認為說九二共識他講的這個九二共識是不是習近平說的那一個只有一中而且沒有個表只有那個中華人民共和國的一中因為他說他在選前講了要相信習近平等於習近平說的話就算那麼我想就叫這次的就是那如果這樣馬英九4月1號去了中國之後"},{"start":2984.121,"end":2997.585,"text":"呃﹗"},{"start":3000.582,"end":3022.667,"text":"中華民國從來就不是中華人民共和國的一部分這個是非常非常的清楚的所以我們在外交從事外交的這個立場我們非常非常清楚在國外我們推動臺灣的外交也是以這個基礎來做那麼我們本的是什麼呢本的是我們是民主"},{"start":3023.507,"end":3030.768,"text":"自由、人權這非常重要的普世價值來推動我們的外交那我們來看看對岸是不是民主"},{"start":3031.926,"end":3060.035,"text":"對外是不是尊重人權．這個答案卻非常非常的明顯所以呢跟我委員也報告不要擔心外交部外交部一定本這個原則去推動我們跟國際的外交好因為我會特別提這個部分是因為你們過這些年來在國際上面面對中國許多外交上面的打壓是辛苦的他們的戰狼外交處處讓我們穿小鞋其實第一線的同仁外交同仁的辛苦我都知道"},{"start":3060.675,"end":3078.228,"text":"但是如果說今天前總統到了中國去之後再更進一步的過去他只講說要相信習近平現在如果開始跟習近平手拉手的時候這樣的訊息是跟我們國內大家超過六成以上認為自己是台灣人的民眾是相違背的"},{"start":3079.969,"end":3102.946,"text":"那麼我希望有這個民調讓你們做底氣在面對國際社會解釋的時候要講清楚不是現在他們所講的立法院新民意那麼就是要跟中國站在一起甚至於說台灣是中國的一部分我希望這個數據拿出來而且是個最新的數據可以給外交同仁在第一線的時候更有底氣謝謝"},{"start":3104.447,"end":3121.644,"text":"另外一個要問的當然一個最新的訊息不知道說今天早上部長請假是不是因為去這個接見了這個來自於美國聯邦眾議院的軍事委員會其中呢情報暨特別作戰小組的主席博格曼現在人在昨天已經抵達了台灣這樣的一個軍委會來台灣"},{"start":3125.587,"end":3136.612,"text":"其實大家想要了解的是他背後的訊息又是什麼因為今天剛好我們的報告也提到了那麼接下來大概就是拜登跟川普再度的二度對決那麼尤其選在520之前來台灣又代表的是什麼樣的訊息呢包括我們也看到了美國2024年他們的會計年度的這個撥款計劃其中竟然"},{"start":3149.117,"end":3162.832,"text":"政府內部為了讓政府可以運作的這樣的一個撥款計畫也讓台灣包含其中因為時間有限所以我是不是可以讓大家跟大家說明一下到底這一次的這種情報暨特種作戰小組來台他代表什麼樣的意涵以及對未來對台灣以及台美之間有什麼影響"},{"start":3171.321,"end":3199.586,"text":"其實我們翻開過去美國不論是民主黨、共和黨的議員來台灣身份都有非常多那麼台灣跟美國基本上就是民主聯盟的一份子所以有各式各樣的委員會來台灣來表達一個支持、跨黨派的支持所以說我認為有情報及特種作戰小組來這裡也不足為奇在再次表達對台灣的一個支持"},{"start":3200.103,"end":3206.69,"text":"只是就是所謂的臺美或者是臺海或甚至印太地區的合作臺灣是堅強的一份子那麼這個是不會改變的也無論說接下來他們的大選結果有什麼不同因為對他們的國家戰略來說臺灣就是重要的一份子是這個意思嗎確實"},{"start":3218.143,"end":3239.245,"text":"好但是呢我們看到就像剛剛我延續的馬英九故意選在520之前去中國甚至於會見所謂的老朋友身為一個總前總統但是卻說台灣是中國的一部分非常的奇怪那麼是不是他們也擔憂台灣內部的一些政治上的變化所以也來這裡瞭解一下台灣內部的狀況呢"},{"start":3240.866,"end":3266.921,"text":"我是指美國的這個訪問團我認為這個訪問團跟馬前總統去中國與否並沒有直接的關係我們退一步講如果說馬總統今天沒有去這個訪問團還是會來表達一個支持的立場所以這個部分其實對台灣來講在國際來講台灣的形象也非常非常的重要非常非常的肯定"},{"start":3267.657,"end":3279.686,"text":"好,所以對於這個報告當中特別提到不論是川普或是拜登在印太戰略當中其實他們的目標都是一致的那麼其實在這個選舉當中我還記得王定宇、趙偉當時在成立台灣跟美國的國會聯誼會那麼我們的未來的蕭美琴副總統也曾經講過了這是別人在國會上面的一些選舉的過程當中但是台灣站在一個跟美國重要的戰略夥伴當中的這個"},{"start":3295.999,"end":3304.086,"text":"有疑關係是不變的那麼對於外交部來說怎麼樣來做現在接下來美國的選舉的情勢的評估剛才在報告中也跟大院的委員做一次報告其實臺美的關係非常非常的深厚我們有臺灣關係法我們有六項保證這都是我們非常堅強的機制所以說今天他"},{"start":3322.443,"end":3323.563,"text":"好,謝謝那你要繼續也可以啦"},{"start":3353.12,"end":3374.083,"text":"好 謝謝林楚英委員 來次長請回我們今天本委會安排的美國2024年總統大選對印太跟台灣的衝擊跟美國的國會軍事及情報委員會來毫無關聯我們沒有事前的聯繫但是你們質詢的內容會不會聽到我就不知道"},{"start":3375.084,"end":3392.273,"text":"另外外交部長今天是有重要的外交場域以及外交的活動必須請假我也沒有說是哪一個外交場域這個是你猜的接下來我們要邀請進行詢問的委員是羅美玲委員"},{"start":3401.273,"end":3405.474,"text":"謝謝主席有請田次長還有領務局何局長羅委員您早次長早次長我要延續上個禮拜的這個有關於這個結婚疫情面談的這個議題喔其實上個禮拜我們有稍稍做了一個討論就是有關於這個面談時間等待太久的這個問題"},{"start":3425.319,"end":3434.484,"text":"那我沒有看到就是說像東南亞當然就是我們一起面談的最大宗那其中呢就是越南的人數是最多的然後從過去這麼多年我們來看的話越南幾乎除了疫情當中之外呢其實都維持了每一年有6000多人的這個面談的這個人數那其他的國家像印尼、泰國、菲律賓"},{"start":3448.212,"end":3461.721,"text":"而人數雖然比較少可是呢至少的等待期都是要兩個月那越南越人數多那目前呢我們看到他們的等待期是長達半年那柬埔寨雖然是說他們面台人數不多可是因為柬埔寨並沒有我們並沒有台灣外館在那裡所以他必須要到越南去去面談那越南本身的人數已經很多了可是還要承接這個柬埔寨的這個面台人數所以柬埔寨的等待期也是高達這個長達半年"},{"start":3476.93,"end":3497.471,"text":"上個禮拜我們區長有提到就是說我們可能暫時會派一些人力到越南去紓解這個面談的這個篩測的這個問題因為上個禮拜因為時間的關係這部分沒有講得很詳細那本席這個部分的話是不是要請次長或是局長來回覆一下就是這個問題我們要如何紓解這個篩測的問題"},{"start":3500.914,"end":3523.95,"text":"我先回答一下首先要謝謝羅委員過去對新住民的權益真的是我覺得你非常非常的用心新住民也受到了很多鼓舞確實疫情結束以後結婚面談的數量是增加的我們也理解我們領悟局也做不時做滾動的檢討"},{"start":3525.171,"end":3540.85,"text":"那麼跟委員也報告這個週末我們就有同仁會飛到越南特別來處理結婚面談的這個事情當然了我們除了派人去以後我們整個流程看看要不做一些調整就是分兩道來走"},{"start":3542.932,"end":3571.752,"text":"如果他的文件比較沒有問題的不需要再進一步了解那個他管道就可以走所以這一部分可以紓解很多等待人的時間如果他的證件有一天需要另外查證他可能走另外一個管道去走換言之呢如果說100個人排隊可能中間只有3個人文件會有問題那97個人就會很快這樣子能夠減少他等待的時間這是第二點"},{"start":3572.652,"end":3597.686,"text":"第三點我們也在研議有些是不是可以免除免除面談這一塊這個部分我們也在研議我們也希望把這個等候的時間從6個半月大概至少能夠縮減到4個月左右這是我們目前的一個策略當然這個進行的中間如果有什麼還有改善的部分我們會持續的加以改善"},{"start":3598.166,"end":3600.629,"text":"謝謝次長的這個回覆其實這面談制度的這個檢討我跟其實上一屆我就一直不斷的跟我們領悟集這邊做了很多很多的討論那當然我今天非常開心就是說我們有看到了今天次長的這個回覆至少說我們說可能有些人可以免疫面談"},{"start":3616.067,"end":3643.146,"text":"可能有些人他沒有問題的我們讓他快速的通過面談那再來有問題的我們大概就是說可能要多花一點時間來跟他多了解那這部分我是覺得這是跨出了一個跨出了一個一大步因為像過去的話面談制度實施實施二十幾年以來其實裡面的面談的內容啦制度啦流程一直都沒有什麼在更動我在想說我們已經進行了二十幾年"},{"start":3643.766,"end":3667.146,"text":"也該來做一個滾動式的這個修正我在想在新住民來講我想這是一個很大的這個福音那再來的話就是說我有看到就是說像我們外管我們外管其實這個派駐面談的人數其實並不是很多像越南我們來講一年6000多人可是不管是駐越南代表處也好或是駐福住民事辦事處面談人數只有22人"},{"start":3670.049,"end":3675.232,"text":"那目前我們說雖然說這個禮拜我們可能就要派駐人力到越南去可是那也是暫時性的那我們也不能說你疏解了目前的這個SET的狀況可是往後呢往後可能還是會有同樣這麼多的人要來申請這個面談那後面的問題我們還是要解決所以我在想流程讓它更加的快速便捷"},{"start":3692.842,"end":3717.257,"text":"應該就是我們要進行的就像次長剛剛所提到的那再來還有一點就是我想請問請問一點就是說比如說像越南、泰國、印尼我們不知道手上有沒有一些數據就是說到底我們在面談的時候的那個通過率到底是多少次長你手上有沒有資料這部分有嗎還是局長我是不是可以請局長來代表回答一下"},{"start":3720.053,"end":3729.087,"text":"謝謝委員如果是單純回答通過率的部分我們平均的通過率結婚面談平均通過率大概是90%"},{"start":3730.816,"end":3735.818,"text":"那一般上不通過的原因是什麼?因為我有看到就是說常常會有接到一些曾經或是投訴就是說"},{"start":3753.444,"end":3778.637,"text":"我們明明講的都沒有問題啊可是問題就是不通過然後外管一般上給的回函就是給當事人回函就是有重要事實陳述不一大概就是一個很含糊的一句話告知對方連對方都不了解說為什麼他沒有通過所以這個部分的話以後有沒有辦法就是說比較具體的告知告知對方就是說為什麼他不通過"},{"start":3780.422,"end":3798.415,"text":"當然是說我有看到就是說通過率如果按照局長你所講的是屬實的話那也算是不低可是有些人還是面臨一而再再而三不通過的問題所以這個的話那自己也不太知道為什麼發生了什麼事情那你們也好像也不會明確告知當事人到底為什麼他不能通過他為什麼不能通過"},{"start":3800.837,"end":3823.939,"text":"其實依照各國簽證的這個合法的這個通例基本上如果不許可的話基本上是政府沒有因為他是主權的行使他基本上不需要對當事人去做說明但是我們依照我們結婚面談的這個辦法就是依照這個命令上面其實有規範的非常清楚"},{"start":3824.58,"end":3851.07,"text":"是哪幾個項目是不會核發的那簡單來說比如說他有這個通謀這個類似假結婚的狀態我們如果當事人的一方有做這樣的陳述的話或是我們有發現他的這個提供的這些相關的這個比如單身證明等等這些佐證的文件是證明它是為假文件那這個也不會通過"},{"start":3852.31,"end":3875.492,"text":"所以我們是有規定裡面是有明確規定在這種情況之下他是不會通過的那至於一般有有些case他們會說是不是過去有違停的情況其實那些並不是他不是所以就算說他是過去在台灣有這個就是違法停留或是滯留的這狀況其實不是造成他不能通過的主因嗎沒錯他不是對"},{"start":3876.753,"end":3902.951,"text":"那如果說也許他要結婚的這對象也許是過去就是在臺灣的討議的這個移工所以這也不是成為他不能夠通過的理由基本上對因為就是說我們還是要從個案來看如果他情況是非常嚴重的那當然會外管他基於他領事財量權的關係他會去做個案的來看但是大致上他不會是主要的理由"},{"start":3904.587,"end":3924.876,"text":"一般上來講的話就是他可能提供的文件有問題或是說他所陳述的這個內容有問題才造成他不能通過的主要原因可是往往當事人都不知道然後因為我們當然不通過的他會找我們投訴 透過的當然不會找我們所以說我們也很難去理解因為你們也不會提供任何的資料"},{"start":3925.456,"end":3926.337,"text":"其實他們有救濟措施的,可以他們提起這個行政"},{"start":3942.131,"end":3942.972,"text":"接下來請王定宇召委"},{"start":3975.643,"end":3994.482,"text":"好,謝謝主席。麻煩次長。有請次長。次長早。美國中文大選跟國會的改選對印太跟台灣來講,大體來看你有什麼評價?對這邊有什麼衝擊影響?"},{"start":4000.329,"end":4024.276,"text":"因為現在來看整個局勢來說,美中的競逐非常非常激烈。那麼各方競逐我覺得最重要的一塊地方就是印太地區。這也就是2017年川普所提出的印太戰略。那麼隨後...我其實不是要你報告,你一句話的評價。我不曉得我們看法也不一樣。"},{"start":4025.598,"end":4040.933,"text":"未來的前景應該算是光明但是充滿了隱憂這樣評價不知道對不對隱憂大概有兩個一個是你剛才提到中國在印太地區的威脅那美國在這邊當然跟他是呈現一個緊張的狀態其實還有一個隱憂"},{"start":4044.136,"end":4068.006,"text":"就是我今天排這個題目的主要原因是美國的內部的政治局勢我們也應該要關心關注所以印太地區對別人來講是一個地區對我們來講是我們家我們就住在這裡台灣就是我們的國家我們就住在這裡所以這一些充滿好的部分我們也要看出來隱憂的部分然後來做處理所以第一個要請教的"},{"start":4069.587,"end":4082.542,"text":"這正面的啦這好像是第一次不是第一次這個是拜登簽署2024年的綜合撥款法案這個撥款法其實不是一個正常的年度預算這是美國"},{"start":4083.803,"end":4104.258,"text":"怕國會吵太久那個預算沒辦法用怕聯邦政府關門所以把撥了一個一兆兩千萬美金維持政府運作到9月底吧10月1號嘛我這樣全是沒有錯嘛所以這是一個綜合撥款法是一個維持聯邦政府運作到9月底的一個撥款法"},{"start":4105.362,"end":4134.067,"text":"所以既然他是一個為了因應聯邦政府不要關門蠻有意思的他把台灣相關的議題放在這個撥款法案裡面你怎麼看這個事情是美國認為在緊急狀態政府不能中斷的事項包含對台的失誤嗎你們外交部怎麼看這個事情如果我們再看大一點的他裡面好像也包含了COFA這筆錢是不是另外一筆錢"},{"start":4137.148,"end":4162.069,"text":"那裡面您如果看過它是說不少於3億美元的對外軍事融資FMF這個我待會兒會問就是台灣放在它這一個綜合撥款法案裡面其實是蠻有意義的年度剛放了一個項目那個年度的預算有那個是一個意義我說在撥款法案裡面把它們放進去表示說聯邦政府這段時間不能中斷運作跟台灣相關的議題其實是裡面他們認為"},{"start":4163.67,"end":4181.156,"text":"是他們國家必須維持運作或者國家利益的事項所以有三筆第一個是不少於3億美金很有意思他把金額寫出來而且不少於3億美金這個叫直接軍援直接給你的請問一下你知不知道這個直接軍援的用途"},{"start":4182.401,"end":4210.138,"text":"外交部知不知道大概就是提供我們購買武器的一些武藏還有訓練還有訓練人員的訓練等我的意思說美方通常提供直接軍援會在前期跟該國進行磋商你需要什麼而不是他要給我們什麼就說什麼雙方進行磋商的外交部知不知道他這一個不少於3億美金的直接軍援跟台灣磋商的項目有哪些不能講就不能講可以講可以讓大家知道一下"},{"start":4211.161,"end":4238.431,"text":"我想這個部份可能國防部部長掌握得比較精準外交部這方面就不必先講出來那放在這裡面的意義是什麼當然是協助我們能夠建立我們這個國防自主所以安全議題然後不對稱戰力對台灣的那個是指用途你又不講用途你現在要跟我詮釋不對稱戰力來買他要送我們什麼東西"},{"start":4240.868,"end":4265.324,"text":"有啦有些項目啦但是這個讓國防部談比較我的意思說把這不少於3億美金的FMF grant其實它的意義是臺灣這個區域的安全屬於美國重大的國家利益在它綜合撥款政府不能停止運作裡面它把這個放在裡面否則它放到10月也沒關係啊為什麼一定要這個時候而且是不是在9月底之前這筆錢就要動用"},{"start":4269.368,"end":4271.129,"text":"國際安和計劃有2600萬美金這個要做什麼?"},{"start":4298.745,"end":4326.423,"text":"它這個主要是...這個的話它是在那個印度PACIFIC的這個印度PACON的那個向下是可以支用的對就是...它用在軍事還是用在...就是安全合作的...它沒有...裡面沒有specifically是說怎麼用但是它是列在...那凍資的決定權...它這個是要給台灣嗎?用在跟台灣的安全合作對安全合作所以安全合作項目細項沒有出來?"},{"start":4327.468,"end":4344.685,"text":"就是大家討論軍事訓練算不算這個的話可能就還是我們請那個國防部那邊能夠提供第三個你們就要講清楚了400萬美金的GCTF這個是跟我們合作我們在全球在做這個大概用途用在哪裡"},{"start":4345.861,"end":4372.755,"text":"就是其實美國他是從2022年就開始在他每年度的撥款法案下面都有放這個啊能夠撥允一些這個GCTF的那凍結的是由我們有決定權還是雙方要磋商我們每年其實現在GCTF的夥伴已經從臺美已經拓展到跟日本還有澳大利亞所以呢我們每年會開一個Joint Committee去討論我們今年在GCTF的想法所以GCTF這一個平台可以說是每"},{"start":4373.737,"end":4391.969,"text":"日、澳、台的一個合作平台所以這個平台我們期待他有更大發展空間我還是要講一下隱憂因為時間關係我兩個隱憂你看太平洋衝突壓力測試法案是美國三個州亞利桑那、內布拉斯加跟伊利諾州他們有一個基礎他們認為"},{"start":4393.53,"end":4417.097,"text":"他們要去評估如果中國在這個區域動武他必須評估三件事情第一個美國的基礎的水電設施會不會被中國攻擊截斷那這個對台灣的意義是連美國都擔心他們會被攻擊基礎水電設施台灣當然要更加要去思考這個問題第二個部分是中國發動攻擊的時候"},{"start":4419.363,"end":4428.258,"text":"公認鏈中斷的衝擊與影響以及他們要因應的方式所以這一個測試法案所顯示台灣"},{"start":4429.637,"end":4458.329,"text":"對美國來講很重要以外我為什麼說這是隱憂呢?如果供應鏈中斷對美國衝擊影響很大基於美國的國家利益它只有兩種做法第一種想辦法降低台灣的重要性免得中斷的時候我受不了啊這很正常啊可是我降低不了的時候我一面我當然還要保護台灣避免台灣受損導致美國國家利益受損有兩種思維這兩個可以同時存在啦未必是競合"},{"start":4459.724,"end":4487.821,"text":"所以對外交部來講這個你們有沒有在關注到美國這個氛圍就是說連晶片其實也是在這個邏輯下就是說晶片供應台灣太重要了台灣的重要性就照布林肯講那句話台灣這邊如果發生衝突的話全球經濟可能會毀掉這是布林肯講的話歐盟有類似的評估報告所以當美國州政府都開始提這個太平洋衝突壓力測試法案他指的可能是台灣可能是東海可能是南太"},{"start":4488.622,"end":4490.537,"text":"那不是南台那個南海"},{"start":4492.059,"end":4521.719,"text":"在這樣情形下外交部怎麼去觀察或遊說當一方面台灣要維持我們的重要性有的重要性是改不了的啦我們的戰略位置重要除非我們開走要不然我們停在這裡他就是戰略位置重要民主自由價值重要這個都改不了的但是供應鏈的重要性經濟的這個power這個是很重要所以我請教一下外交部怎麼去看待美國如果我們的重要性被降下來的話其實對我們安全也是有影響的外交部怎麼評估這個事情"},{"start":4522.623,"end":4533.989,"text":"當然我們要維持我們對美國的一個重要性 這非常重要那麼我們在比如說我們這個高科技是不是做某種程度的diversify"},{"start":4534.848,"end":4559.071,"text":"這個我覺得我們已經在做了我們應該要強化我們的經濟科技實力國防實力要提升但經濟科技實力讓我們成為全球不可或缺的夥伴這也是安全之道我反而另外題目是有關這個援助烏克蘭以色列台灣的法案我希望私下了解你們有沒有向美國表達我們的concern就是一個分裂的決策一個延宕"},{"start":4560.831,"end":4561.131,"text":"接下來請馬文君委員"},{"start":4606.541,"end":4606.561,"text":"市長請"},{"start":4616.44,"end":4634.888,"text":"馬委員早次長早次長今天我們還有很多的議題在之前在業務報告的時候其實也有請教過部長那在這裡我們還是要再延續一下就是就海地現在的局勢發展"},{"start":4636.149,"end":4660.528,"text":"那我們本來在上一次巡打的時候我們那時候的國人還有23位那好像有幾位離開是不是?現在可以確定的是有五位五位同仁已經安全地抵達了多米尼亞那麼也受到當地的僑胞的照顧那像我們現在還沒有撤僑的計畫嗎?"},{"start":4662.194,"end":4683.843,"text":"我們有不同的階段,那麼這五個可能也就是所謂的第一階段的撤僑。他們是什麼樣的對象?有一個是我們同仁的眷屬,有一個是在那裡工作的同仁,還有幾個知道嗎?"},{"start":4685.208,"end":4701.376,"text":"一位同仁眷屬一位台商所以我們現在還有18位留在那裡是的那他們如果要離開的時候要怎麼離開因為顯然我們是搭別人的順風車對不對那如果沒有機會你萬一臨時的狀況很緊急的時候我們應該要怎麼樣去因應"},{"start":4707.078,"end":4732.266,"text":"因為顯然我們沒有安排我們只是說要找理念相近的國家然後來協助我們那萬一大家都沒有機會或者根本沒有辦法離開的時候我們的人怎麼辦我們其實是有不同的階段在準備的工作我們成立一個緊急應變小組這個應變小組其實把我們走的路線都已經規劃好了他可以給我們位子嗎我們要做誰的"},{"start":4733.979,"end":4754.236,"text":"因為不是我們自己安排啊很遠欸海地我們那時候去的時候所以你自己的撤僑計畫你是按階段來分配沒有錯可是顯然不是由我們可以自主決定的萬一如果沒有位置沒有一個方法或者我們根本離不開的時候你要怎麼辦現在顯然並不是這樣跟上一次報告的時候不一樣"},{"start":4760.581,"end":4771.353,"text":"所以我們在面對很多緊急狀況的時候包括之前日本我們發生一些突發的意外的時候我們自己的安排也都是落後的才造成後續的一些紛紛擾擾那現在這個狀況勒"},{"start":4777.828,"end":4789.946,"text":"你怎麼做?先簡單的說就好了因為到時候跟我們說有徹橋計畫我們都有備案我們都有備案現在如果立即發生我們應該要怎麼做?他們會坐誰的飛機走?"},{"start":4791.465,"end":4795.347,"text":"這個要看狀況了因為他飛機每天有不同國家在飛那時候如果沒有位置大家都要走啊你現在還可以準備因為我們對於自己的國人我們現在在第一線明知道他已經很危險美國都已經撤掉了連美國都覺得那個不容易掌握他們都早就在啟動撤僑機"},{"start":4814.355,"end":4832.875,"text":"美國早就已經在啟動撤僑計畫而且他們是有準備的他們的飛機或什麼他們都可以我們沒有所以這個部分我們還是在這裡提醒因為跟我們說明的時候跟顯然現實的狀況是不一樣的我只是特別提出來那到底要怎麼做你們會後再來做報告好了謝謝"},{"start":4834.897,"end":4848.74,"text":"現在我想要請教的是在貶政府時期我們為了減少台灣對丹麥的一個貿易順差然後也發展我國的替代能源政策2004年台灣跟丹麥採購了高達3000萬美元的風力發電機那在2019年的時候蔡英文總統也接見了丹麥的國會副議長他們的訪問團"},{"start":4863.627,"end":4869.509,"text":"當時也承諾不管是在綠能、在環保、在創新設計還有老人照護、農畜食品跟產業這個都是丹麥發展的重點產業然後也希望雙方有更好的一個交流跟學習"},{"start":4881.454,"end":4893.243,"text":"那在希望持續加強跟丹麥各領域的合作情況之下2022年前委員就是林昶佐他"},{"start":4894.397,"end":4922.415,"text":"他也籌組了跨黨派的立委的訪問團到丹麥去參加哥本哈根的民主高峰會這個國會議員的論壇那時候總統也發表視訊演說可是在這麼短的時間因為我們看到媒體可能也有披露現在丹麥他只承就是不承認台灣是一個國家那對我們會造成很大的衝擊首先在"},{"start":4925.492,"end":4947.729,"text":"他們的居留證上面你必須做圈選他現在台灣這個選項沒有了我想要請教次長今天如果我們到丹麥去我們的國人需要申請居留證的時候他現在只有中國只有香港只有澳門我想請問我們應該要勾選哪一個我們的國人應該要勾選哪一個"},{"start":4952.37,"end":4965.315,"text":"我們現在已經注意到這個問題了我們已經跟丹麥的官方去積極的洽商讓他們把這個名稱做改過來我們已經採取了動作那如果他不改勒"},{"start":4966.833,"end":4986.169,"text":"因為顯然他們是非常明確的態度因為從2021年開始2021年之前都還有可是2021年以後就沒了所以他們的態度越來越明確的情況之下我們要怎麼做你只是跟他說要做修正因為這是國際現實"},{"start":4987.99,"end":5005.739,"text":"今天我們希望說在這樣的情況之下我們即使在我們自己的國內說我們台灣在整個國際上面我們有多少理念相近的國家對我們有多支持我剛剛講的這部分都是政府在我們國人的面前告訴我們的"},{"start":5006.88,"end":5022.274,"text":"我們跟丹麥的關係非常友好當然在很多的方面不管在自由民主不管在我們的整體的國家發展或者在科技在各方面台灣有很優秀的一個部分可是在國際現實上面我們常常面臨到這樣的問題怎麼辦"},{"start":5027.745,"end":5055.557,"text":"這個問題再次的印證中國在世界各地對我們的打壓所以這一點要國際一定要清楚這個問題市長我們非常清楚我們現在要知道的是我們要怎麼因應因為即使連我們認為理念相近國家非常支持我們的我們這樣告訴國人的都是這樣對待我們的情況之下我們應該要怎麼樣走出國際因為我們的邦交國越來越少"},{"start":5056.638,"end":5072.278,"text":"連支持我們可以公開幫我們講話的也越來越少然後我們說理念相近的國家跟我們一直維持友好的關係我們也花了錢可是他說改就改那我們應該要怎麼做總是要有一個因應的方式啊這就是國際現實啊"},{"start":5074.711,"end":5075.432,"text":"我們嚴正的去抗議"},{"start":5091.738,"end":5112.975,"text":"對岸對我們的打壓尤其在外交上面可是當我們應該要尋求更好的溝通跟對話的時候也有人唱反調今天如果我們由政府做不來的部分有些人有些代表團有些有機會可以去溝通對話的時候被抹紅成什麼樣子"},{"start":5114.778,"end":5129.75,"text":"那你怎麼會有路可以走今天包括普丁他也公開一直宣示把台灣當成中國的一部分他所有的唱和都是跟著中國的步調走這對我們來說壓縮越來越嚴重俄烏戰爭他什麼時候結束我們不曉得可是俄烏戰爭也會牽動台海的局勢緊張所以當我們自己在討論這些的時候怎麼樣開啟對話因為"},{"start":5143.962,"end":5150.288,"text":"原頭的解如果不解有時候我們路就走不出去當我們路越走不出去的時候你即使擁有再多的優勢也會越來越瓦解就像我們的高科技我們的戲盾今天美國也設廠了"},{"start":5159.858,"end":5160.198,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員來次長請回"},{"start":5190.623,"end":5190.783,"text":"請田市長市長請"},{"start":5215.836,"end":5215.856,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5245.956,"end":5259.842,"text":"那我自己感覺這幾年其實在一些移工的議題上其實慢慢的其實更多了一些彼此之間友善的措施跟這個氣氛但我現在發現一個蠻奇怪的事情"},{"start":5261.322,"end":5289.067,"text":"這個有一些外籍勞工他結束了在臺灣的蘭嶺工作他回到家鄉以後但他可能也許他結束工作他回到他家鄉有可能還20幾歲出頭他想來臺灣念書或想要來攻讀學歷或者是他想來臺灣學中文把中文學好但這個這樣你知道像這樣子的人他申不申請的到我們的簽證"},{"start":5290.56,"end":5304.526,"text":"而他如果證件合的話經過我們審核當然可以拿到簽證了錯了 次長這樣子他沒有辦法拿到我們簽證因為在我們外交部的規定裡面外籍人士來台沿襲中文申請停留簽證手續裡面就說"},{"start":5306.046,"end":5326.967,"text":"對於這個曾來台從事就業服務法第46條第一項第8款到第10款規定工作簡單來說就是在台灣做藍領的工作啦我簡單來說是這樣我駐外館得不受理以研習中文為申請簽證所以我們聽過好多個"},{"start":5328.612,"end":5344.792,"text":"他其實過去曾經在台灣工作過他是移工他回到他國家以後他想要再來台灣學中文或者是想要來台灣可能下一步他的生涯規劃可是卻被這一條給擋住了次長你覺得這合不合理"},{"start":5346.113,"end":5371.161,"text":"基本上我不認為這個合理我必須說這個應該不合理但是我想請領事事務局說明為什麼有這一條是不是以前有什麼案子發生以後這樣我跟你講我直接跟你說因為我們都問過了很簡單他其實就覺得因為很多這些來台灣過去可能在做過藍領的工作然後要來台灣學中文的我們的領務局覺得他們都會偷偷去打工"},{"start":5372.941,"end":5399.507,"text":"所以用一個想要防止非法就業的理由一竿子打翻了所有的人可是我們在問說這是我們問到的就是說他覺得這些人很多都來非法打工所以不然如果領務局有更新的理由也可以跟我們說為什麼會有這樣的規定這是我們跟領務局請問他們跟我們說的說法如果有別的說法也可以那我們在國會殿堂拿出來講"},{"start":5400.723,"end":5402.325,"text":"我當然知道 但現在問題是討論規定合不合理啊"},{"start":5419.626,"end":5439.89,"text":"你前面提到說因為他做過攬領他就不能來我認為那可能是個案不是你的規定上面就寫了這個你們自己的注意事項寫說如果他來從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第10款這個就業服務法可能現場的不一定下就是攬領工作啦"},{"start":5441.175,"end":5465.423,"text":"所以我駐外管得不受理以沿襲中文為由的申請簽證嘛這是你們的規定不是我的規定啊所以我現在說有別的理由你們也可以講但我得到的理由是說因為你們認為這樣很多來台學中文的人他們都會偷偷打工我嘗試解釋看看"},{"start":5466.383,"end":5490.303,"text":"我嘗試解釋看看因為研習中文這幾個是非常非常廣泛的一個定義我研習中文跟我來大學念書是不一樣的當然所以他只要說我來研習中文他提不出一個證據說他是哪一個機構已經錄取了他有沒有如果他能夠提出你這個跟我們的規定是不一樣的"},{"start":5491.443,"end":5512.668,"text":"你這個規定裡面就是他曾經來台灣做過這幾款裡面的工作他就不能以延期中文為用這個裡面的條文寫的就是這個意思不是你如果你說假設他沒有出具是誰來錄取他你也可以寫在裡面可是這個條文不是這樣寫的啊這個注意事項不是這樣寫的啊我現在是拿你們的注意事項來講啊"},{"start":5514.54,"end":5518.744,"text":"這是你們寫的規定 又不是我的規定 又不是別的部會的規定這是你們的規定吧"},{"start":5540.919,"end":5547.324,"text":"李秘書這是不是你們的規定外籍人士來台延期中文申請停留簽證手續說明是不是你們的規定是這是從你們的網站發布單位是外交部領事事務局可是不是拒絕阿他這個是得阿他是有一個裁量權在那邊阿但這一條的原因是什麼嘛就有人被擋住嘛"},{"start":5563.712,"end":5569.754,"text":"市長我覺得我們可以來判斷他適不適合來但不應該用他過去在台灣是不是做過藍領工作來判斷這一條條文的敘述的邏輯就是這樣因為你做過藍領工作在台灣做藍領工作所以我可以不讓你來"},{"start":5590.714,"end":5596.423,"text":"你如果要設定其他的審核標準我同意我們來討論那標準合不合理但這條的邏輯不是這樣啊"},{"start":5598.769,"end":5622.195,"text":"好,這樣子我跟委員保證我們來處理這條看看但是我需要給我一個例子我們要看他的背景到底他為什麼會被拒給我一個例子就好是,但是市長我這邊還是要跟你說我們來檢討我們可以從那個例子裡面適不適合來判他是因為什麼條件不適合但我今天跟你討論的不是那個例子適不適合我跟你討論的是這個條文適不適合這個條文的邏輯對不對"},{"start":5626.696,"end":5651.265,"text":"我現在跟你討論的是這件事情所以我現在不是要討論單一個案的問題我是要討論這個條文對不對如果不對他的邏輯他的篩選的門檻不對該改就改嘛好 我們來檢討這個也不是放在母法裡面啊這是我們自己的規定裡面來就可以處理的問題啊所以一個月來調整這可以嗎我們處理好 一個月齁好這樣第二個我接下來也還是要問喔其實今天幾個問題針對領務局齁我沒有特別這個要刁難領務局"},{"start":5657.092,"end":5671.861,"text":"有一個小朋友他寄給我的一個陳情信這個陳情信上面是這樣寫的他說這個小朋友說當初他的媽媽帶孩子他嫁來台灣媽媽沒有國籍所以這個小朋友是用叛親停留簽證的方式進到台灣"},{"start":5673.615,"end":5701.708,"text":"他進到台灣以後後來就變成移民署的失聯外國人十幾年過去了因為鄰居舉報說檢舉他疑似有在這個外國人非法工作所以這個小朋友才被移民署發現因為他是失聯外國人所以這十幾年在台灣都沒有辦法受正常的教育包括就醫等等等連疫苗也沒有辦法打那這樣的狀況接下來他可能會被移民署遣返或者是會有相關的管制入境"},{"start":5703.505,"end":5711.92,"text":"主席我想再一點點時間我們當然都希望這樣的事情不要再發生市長是吧我們希望這樣的狀況不要再發生對不對"},{"start":5713.394,"end":5740.353,"text":"當然好但是現在為什麼會有這個狀況發生我跟次長報告但有一個有一個很重要的環節因為我們也去問過移民署移民署在他的這個新住民的及家庭關懷跟訪視之中為什麼明明知道這個外籍的配偶帶有未成年的兒童入境台灣但卻沒有去詢問這位失聯的小朋友的原因我們也去問移民署但移民署回覆給我們一個狀況確實是現在在移民署跟領務局間接的系統裡面"},{"start":5742.074,"end":5763.173,"text":"只有名字、護照號碼、國別跟簽證期限這些資訊在他們借接的資料裡面沒有年齡沒有簽證類別或者是他其實在台灣的聯絡人所以看起來是因為這兩個單位之間借接的資料的欄位不足所以導致資訊在傳遞的時候也會有所不足"},{"start":5763.593,"end":5788.032,"text":"所以變成相對像這樣子外籍小朋友他可能是一個比較高風險的狀況這樣不容易被辨認我想要請次長我們也是會在一個月內可以跟移民署這邊針對這個借接欄位的部分來做一個相對應的調整或改善我們希望未來能夠把類似的案例能夠在更開始的時候就掌握更多的資訊能夠去防範或去追蹤而不會變成我們現在看到這些不樂見的狀況"},{"start":5790.033,"end":5804.223,"text":"十幾年後再變成陳秦杏來找我們,可以嗎?可以。一個月?好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝紅山和委員。這兩件事情外交部一個月,都一個月,待會我們會載名。好,謝謝,請回。好,接下來進行詢問委員陳冠廷委員。"},{"start":5826.517,"end":5826.537,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5827.739,"end":5828.96,"text":"有聽過這個消息"},{"start":5857.881,"end":5881.971,"text":"那如果我們把時間再往前一點2016年包含不當使用臉書用戶來去干預美國選舉的建橋分析這個市長也有聽過嗎?有有聽過部長你會不會覺得說極權主義干擾這一個民主國家的選舉已經成為常態這是他一貫用的手法這是他一貫用的手法用假訊息用認知作戰這種他都會用"},{"start":5882.93,"end":5912.137,"text":"我想前天這個泛歐綠黨訪台的團長那鮑瑞漢也談到說在安全議題上面俄羅斯是颱風中國是氣候變遷所以現在我們同時要面對的是氣候變遷跟颱風的這樣的威脅就是包含中國跟俄羅斯他們會在各個不同的地方不同的領域來去挑戰我們的民主這一個的選戰或者是選舉的過程包含在美國也會遇到這樣子的問題所以這一次的美國大選"},{"start":5912.717,"end":5929.608,"text":"我希望外交部的同仁能夠持續觀察他們競選的方式特別最近台灣有遇到一個問題就是不在籍投票的討論特別在境外投票也有人討論那我們大概是主要專注在中國所以如果在中國投票的話那一定會受到若干干預跟影響"},{"start":5930.228,"end":5955.284,"text":"但我認為不僅僅在中國在民主自由的國家同樣也有中國的能量在裡面他們同樣能夠透過干預的系統物理上面也好或者是透過這種網際網路來去探知我們的個人資料也好或者是直接利用得到的資料來去做細部上面的這種脅迫這都是有可能會發生的那外交部的立場當然不是中選會但是要把這些情資跟這些資訊來轉達給我國的相關選務機構"},{"start":5959.787,"end":5983.078,"text":"因為在美國發生的事情未來一定也沒有不可能排除在台灣發生嘛所以今天我們看2024年大選過程對我國的影響的時候我們不僅僅是要再從地緣政治上面去看同時要從這個國家怎麼遇到俄國中國還有其他極權國家怎麼樣去干預他們大選從中學習到一些東西並且用"},{"start":5983.678,"end":6009.922,"text":"真正的資訊提供給中選會而不是就是說我們過場我們質詢完就結束不是這樣子的我想每一個部門都有他跨部會的協調包含最近勞動部那針對印度的一些說法就是因為資訊沒有傳達的完整特別是外交部就是主責機構對這些國家的這些基本的背景人文、宗教、種族都必須要做完整的這個說明給我們相關部門"},{"start":6011.479,"end":6038.906,"text":"當然我個人是並不支持此時在境外的不在期投票因為就是如同剛才提到的這些問題所以我還是希望市長如果說未來針對假設有一法院有決議那針對不在期的投票境外的部分請你們做言語的話你們會不會有什麼配套的做法中國會怎麼樣介入你們有沒有辦法做一些事先的這個模擬來去防止"},{"start":6041.543,"end":6060.856,"text":"您這個問題我必須說我們並沒有考慮過境外投票的部分因為基本上這個可能還是內政部總選會的一個權責但是呢在這些樣態方面我們可以去收集中國怎麼樣去用假訊息"},{"start":6061.957,"end":6075.13,"text":"用這個認知作戰來影響一個國家的選舉結果 這個我們可以提供市長 我剛才的意思不僅僅是這樣子 比方說中國在美國已經規劃美國的國民的"},{"start":6076.932,"end":6101.122,"text":"那中國的駐美的大使館有沒有透過他們的能量去脅迫我為什麼講這句話其實過去我們在美國就讀的時候在美國留學的時候中國大使館就直接會發訊息給他們的留學生叫他們做某些事情叫他們不做某件事情包含對他們僑民都有實質控制的力量在那他們實質控制的力量這個東西作為面對威脅的第一線國家"},{"start":6102.659,"end":6127.726,"text":"我們有責任把這些情報做為這個甚至是報告來去分來去分享給其他的友邦為什麼我們這麼說就如同我們會去讀美國的報告一樣如果我們第一線的人知道他們會做這件事情因為我們直接是其實語言是相通的大概他們的僑民遇到什麼樣的挑戰我們大概也知道那我們把這些訊息情資做出來之後美國第一線就會知道我們就有辦法有相應的對口"},{"start":6128.186,"end":6151.909,"text":"有相應的對口未來預期面對這樣的威脅跟挑戰的時候就能夠更加的一致所以我一直強調說當然啦這個是中選會的職責啊跟外交部有什麼關係這是美國的選舉啊跟這個台灣有什麼關係但如果都沒有關係的話我們為什麼會研究這件事情因為都是有聯繫的我們的部門不可以有本位主義所以我瞭解市長會除了這個做這個整體的研討說怎麼樣干預"},{"start":6153.39,"end":6167.109,"text":"這個你說社群媒體除此之外實質上國家的力量怎麼干預我希望還是有一個相關的書面報告結束之後選戰結束之後一定要有完整的那這個盡量不要用模糊的語言"},{"start":6168.59,"end":6185.539,"text":"文字很多沒有意義啦重點是有沒有辦法精確的掌握到哪些實證哪些實證是他們直接干預的我們用實證來去說服民眾說這就是我們實質上面臨的威脅不是說這是我們要鼓吹我們面臨到的威脅實質上發生的事情就要讓民眾知道那"},{"start":6187.217,"end":6205.659,"text":"這個部分可不可以請市長能夠來傳達給外交部?我跟委員報告一下其實這次的選舉我們也派出了很多的學者智庫到世界各地尤其是美國來說明我們選舉的過程當然這個過程當中也會把中國借選的一些方法也利用這個機會跟他們瞭解"},{"start":6207.781,"end":6222.093,"text":"謝謝,其實過去包含中國籍的這種直接一舉的規劃權利之後來干預我們的選舉甚至是合成我國的黨主席跟他們的這些照片在干預選舉甚至是這種錯假亂訊息在地方上"},{"start":6225.836,"end":6227.998,"text":"最後再補充一下這一次的選戰我們當然知道說他除了選擇總統之外"},{"start":6248.103,"end":6267.797,"text":"我們是希望透過這個系統來去擴大跟美國的跨黨派的動能但是我還是想強調說不管是拜登還是川普總統他們各自有不同的外交政策那比較多擔心的可能是關於這個再保證的部分川普跟盟友再保證的部分這部分市長有什麼樣的評估"},{"start":6270.904,"end":6293.293,"text":"我請我們北美斯的同仁來回答一下其實我們一直在強調的就是美國政府他對於台灣的政策一直是有他的延續性對於那個海峽的侵蝕也都是一直在專注的所以對台灣來講的話他們現在每次在提到對台灣的政策的時候強調的就是對台灣的六項保證還有台灣關係"},{"start":6293.993,"end":6309.009,"text":"我剛講的是在保證不是是對台灣是對他的盟友的這個評估因為過去那當然是對中國的立場川普總統是堅定的但是對他盟友的立場對日本對韓國對傳統的這個部分您怎麼看這個部分你怎麼評估"},{"start":6310.161,"end":6332.584,"text":"美國政府現在也是很積極的在跟盟友一起來關注台海的情勢那所謂的在保證目前是有一些學者在討論但是我想我們對這個也是有我們自己的看法好那請把我們的這些擔憂還是要傳達過去希望說對盟友不管是台灣也好對台日韓等印太國家都必須要加強這個幫助最後一句話"},{"start":6333.805,"end":6358.548,"text":"五二零的管理計劃我們當然知道五二零的管理計劃我們一定會邀請許多邦交國跟有我的盟國的政要來但是我還是強調除了國會議員總統副總統或者是我們友邦的元首等等可以思考的就是非政要的重要影響人物不管是在社群的影響也好或者是在理念的部分就自由民主他可能在"},{"start":6359.569,"end":6386.655,"text":"我們的友邦他或許他不是他可能是反對黨的他可能是支持反對黨的那可能這個國家還不是這麼民主化但我們就如同我上次的質詢有強調作為民主國家我們有示範有領導的責任在除了邀請友邦之外包含友邦的這些在野陣營或者是甚至是異議人士都可以納入考量當然是在不危及邦誼的狀況之下可以做思考"},{"start":6388.236,"end":6411.474,"text":"謝謝,謝謝次長謝謝陳冠廷委員,次長請回接下來進行詢問委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接下來進行詢問委員是沈伯陽委員好,謝謝主席,那有請次長,謝謝來,次長請"},{"start":6419.697,"end":6442.63,"text":"沈委員您早因為上次比較專注在法律戰那因為這一次我覺得蠻重要的一點是因為我們這份報告是在講這一個不管這一個美國的候選人是誰以及誰當選對台灣的影響所以呢我想說從這一點來看因為畢竟剛剛在報告裡面也有提到非常重要的事情就是其實美國看起來不分黨派"},{"start":6443.15,"end":6456.651,"text":"對於中國的議題或對於台灣的保護其實有一定的立場但是其實中國一直以來想要去鬆動這個立場所以我想說我們從反過來看就是說我們要怎麼去反制中國去鬆動這個立場的問題今天大概就只著重在這一點而已"},{"start":6458.263,"end":6481.29,"text":"那這個就是在我認為就是說因為我們現在在講的是總統選舉那所以他代表是政府那我們當然一直以來對於這個國會的外交外交部也是不遺餘力這個是在這個三角形的最上方那中間呢就是還沒到社會大眾包含智庫、學界、civil society我想說其實我們的國家跟他們的連結也是蠻多的"},{"start":6481.89,"end":6499.031,"text":"最下面就是社會大眾現在我們就是說如果討論這個美國對台灣的支持我認為說以報告來講我們的政府這一端或者國會這一端對我們的支持當然我覺得是比較明顯但現在就是最下面這個所謂社會大眾的支持其實有可能還是要打一個問號"},{"start":6500.172,"end":6514.115,"text":"為什麼這樣講就是因為他被鬆動的可能性看起來是最高的所以我大概先從這一個我們在這幾年我們的這個當時我在民間的時候我們民主實驗室有做這個China index那我先透過這一個這個是比較複雜的圖形那個我們當時在看的時候發現在美國社會裡面這個是中國對美國社會的一個滲透圖"},{"start":6522.597,"end":6541.952,"text":"那可以看到這個紅那個中間的灰色那一圈是平均值那這個圖出來的那一個就是長得比較奇怪的圖形就是美國現在的狀況那可以看到美國現在被滲透最嚴重的是學術然後還有政府然後呢他的society在右下角呢其實就是當然還是比平均高但是沒有到那麼高"},{"start":6542.472,"end":6570.715,"text":"所以我們在看這一個問題的時候就會發現如果我們按照過去的一些評量標準顯然他們在中間那一塊也就是學術這一塊看起來做了不少事上面政治那一塊也做不少事然後社會主義這個因為這是2022的我們測量的標準那在2023我還不得而知但從最近的資料看起來他們對文化跟這個社會的滲透看起來是不遺餘力所以這邊我舉幾個簡單的例子第一個就是這個MBA的例子"},{"start":6571.175,"end":6597.787,"text":"因為當時我們在看這個哈佛跟這個芝加哥大學的民調的時候就發現他們民意對於中國的一個反感在NBA那一次的事件是突然起來的那其實這件事情已經很久了那即使他們對中國開始感受到因為這個中國看起來是看起來對我們不太友善跟他們認為中國是一個有危險的有敵意的國家其實還是兩件事所以這個事情其實大家這個記憶可能不是那麼的熟悉以後它又會慢慢掉下來"},{"start":6598.847,"end":6621.479,"text":"接下來就是這個他們的這個拼多多還有他們的TikTok像這一些對於他們社會的影響看起來是越來越大所以我們現在害怕的事情就是當下面這個社會的影響越來越大之後他會不會往上侵蝕就像剛剛那個圖形對於學界然後對於政治人物的侵蝕那不知道現在外交部對於這件事情有什麼應對的方式"},{"start":6624.959,"end":6634.634,"text":"委員提的問題我覺得是相當大的一個問題基本上現在我們外交部在做的工作您剛才也提到對政府對國會議員對智庫等等對大眾來講"},{"start":6639.641,"end":6664.762,"text":"大眾現在因為媒體的發展有的時候可能是很難去說明但是我們只能做一個對比的工作來說比如說最近對中國的印象全世界也做過一些分析印象好的有多少印象壞的有多少這個部分我覺得應該可以做一些宣傳"},{"start":6665.763,"end":6690.451,"text":"那麼他的一個所謂的戰狼外交事實上對中國的形象並沒有幫助有80%的人對中國的形象都是負面的所以這個部分我覺得我們可以利用一些方法告訴他們大眾其實這個部分政府官員知道媒體知道智庫知道但是一般大眾可能沒有辦法這麼清楚的知道"},{"start":6690.711,"end":6692.232,"text":"謝謝次長的說明那剛剛講的比較像是一些正面的作為也就是說因為剛剛講的"},{"start":6707.222,"end":6731.717,"text":"美國社會對於中國的一個想法現在可能漸漸偏向負面那當然我們可以繼續讓大家知道說中國做什麼事情但對於他們要不要support他們的政治人物作為更積極的行動對他們來講又是一個gap又是另外一件事所以像在這邊呢我們這次就看到我休閒娛樂先就是在這一個白小白這個議員他這個議員在這次TikTok的這個案子裡面呢"},{"start":6731.997,"end":6752.197,"text":"他投下了因為本來他們說針對這個TikTok在100多天之內他要把它賣掉這樣的一個議案他投下了反對票那投下反對票之後我們可以看到左邊這個圖就是TikTok其實是有請大家打電話那最更重要的是他們其實有請大家打電話給這位議員所以也就是說在社會上當大家"},{"start":6752.577,"end":6770.629,"text":"在長期使用這些短影音的平台的時候他跳出了這一個他也打電話給這個議員這個這個議員他在發言的時候他就有點鬆動了他就說他也確實認為這可能是一個威脅但他也覺得就跟替他的講法一樣言論自由啊什麼等等值得保護所以因此他投下了反對票"},{"start":6771.389,"end":6787.991,"text":"他就是形成了一個從社會大眾直接影響到最上層的這一個政府跟國會的一個決策所以我們現在當然是比較擔心這件事情是以往我們會比較忽略這種社會文化的侵蝕跟滲透但是這一個社會基礎文化跟滲透在美國的尤其是因為畢竟他們"},{"start":6788.592,"end":6791.594,"text":"所以希望說能不能有一些可能更積極的行動去反制中國這樣的一些作為"},{"start":6812.416,"end":6838.814,"text":"就是謝謝委員的提示這個確實是我們現在對美工作的一個重點包括說去深化跟各州的關係那另外呢就是在智庫的這一塊還有就是其實我們最近也剛跟美國舉辦了這個印太民主治理諮商我們也是特別有邀請NGO就是專門在研究中國的滲透的這些作為的來參加這樣子的討論所以另外我們跟美國也有一個台美教育倡議也是強調"},{"start":6839.855,"end":6843.217,"text":"謝謝司長的說明那我重整一下就是說現在外交部其實蠻多的行李是放在剛剛那個中層結構就是說因為畢竟要影響到整個社會文化美國人真的很多"},{"start":6862.309,"end":6882.365,"text":"對我們來講,要不是我們有,要是也有TikTok相關的類似的影音平台的話,我們當然也可以做一些更好的反制措施。但現在就只是在有限的預算之下,我們只能先從中層結構開始加強起,不管是對於智庫的交流,對於學者的交流。那這個當然蠻重要的是因為他們很多有類似選轉門,他們其實很多也會到政府裡面工作。"},{"start":6883.146,"end":6883.246,"text":"是的"},{"start":6909.907,"end":6914.148,"text":"謝謝謝謝沈博洋委員請回接下來進行詢問委員黃國昌委員謝謝主席麻煩有請次長來 田次長"},{"start":6938.86,"end":6957.469,"text":"黃委員您早市長早今天外交部針對美國2024年大選對於我們自己所會產生的影響進行專題報告那依照你們目前所掌握到的狀況你們對於11月美國總統大選有沒有什麼預期"},{"start":6959.877,"end":6985.1,"text":"基本上這個美國的選舉不但是我們關注我想全世界都在關注這個問題當然所以即使我們有預期我們也不便說出來很好就是這個立場就是這個立場在不干預的原則下面我們對於我們的友當我們要尊重別人的民主程序"},{"start":6986.201,"end":7009.948,"text":"無論如何那個都是美國人民的選擇他們透過民主程序所做出來的結果我們一定要尊重那因此我對於次長剛表達的這樣子的一個立場我覺得您嚴謹的守了在外交上面應該遵循的原則那當然從媒體的角度"},{"start":7011.308,"end":7024.514,"text":"從各個研究機構從關心這個結果的人的角度來看美國總統大選可能的結果的時候各個民調機構當然會做他們的預測特別是在幾個搖擺州幾個搖擺州"},{"start":7029.017,"end":7048.296,"text":"他會決定最後大選的結果當然我們不願意去介入別人的民主程序但從外交部的立場來講對於可能總統當選人各自因應的策略外交部準備好了嗎?"},{"start":7049.605,"end":7063.662,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們對民主共和兩黨的不管他是將來有機會做閣員做部長等等這些甚至議員等等其實平常都有做很多的功夫"},{"start":7064.449,"end":7087.836,"text":"這我了解但我的意思是說針對兩個不同的當選人我們應該要有一個因應的策略我現在倒不是在講說什麼部長、閣議員、議員這平常外交部的同仁都很認真在做嘛我們大家都很支持外交部的同仁在國際社會上面幫我們開疆閉土幫台灣交朋友讓台灣走進國際社會這個我們大家都支持次長"},{"start":7088.556,"end":7116.014,"text":"和我不同黨派的立委我相信大家的心都一樣但我會問這個問題是其實我問的是蠻具體的問題我舉一個簡單的例子假設如果川普總統他再再度的回到白宮去的話在很多分析的報告當中他有提到說他有沒有可能對中國再進一步發動另外一個貿易戰"},{"start":7117.435,"end":7142.72,"text":"把關稅拉到60%這個是他公開講過的那在我們simulation的時候當這件事情發生的時候對我國產業可能會造成的衝擊是什麼我剛指的是這個層次的問題社長您可以瞭解嗎您講的我可以瞭解對我的意思是那針對這些事情我們有開始準備因應的策略嗎"},{"start":7144.557,"end":7162.942,"text":"我們會做一些砂盤推演但是呢 細節不方便提供 不會 不會 好 非常的好您覺得我們自己在大選的時候 其他國家的不管是意見領袖還是政治人物適合對我國的大選表態攻擊特定的候選人嗎"},{"start":7165.256,"end":7191.624,"text":"如果都是民主國家的話應該不會應該不會嘛那相對的我們基於對於其他國家的尊重就是我們對於其他國家在進行大選的民主程序也應該要尊重吧我為什麼會特別提這件事情四年前在選舉的時候四年前在選舉的時候我們國家是有政治人物"},{"start":7192.932,"end":7221.795,"text":"把拜登直接綁到親北京公開挺川普這是我們應該採取的立場嗎?四年前的集體瘋狂今年應該再重新上演嗎?市長您的意見我不點名啊我想我全部貼出來現在在網路的世界大家都看得到嘛我四年前對四年前發生的這個集體瘋狂我老實講我是看得瞠目結舌啊"},{"start":7222.731,"end":7222.751,"text":"市長"},{"start":7239.045,"end":7259.818,"text":"我們政府沒有採取這個步驟是 我知道我們政府沒有採取這個立場那但 如果讓特定陣營的不管是政治人物 或者是車役不斷地散布這個訊息的話其實對於我們 政府對外交部的同仁可以有時候再做一些外交工作反而造成困擾"},{"start":7261.039,"end":7282.307,"text":"這不是一件好事這不是一件好事我只希望今年美國總統大選我們密切注意觀察以台灣的利益為最高優先尊重美國的民主程序四年前的集體瘋狂不要再發生了好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員 次長請回我們接下來進行詢答的委員是李昆城委員"},{"start":7293.942,"end":7296.684,"text":"臺灣民主基金會 韓院長已遞補為董事"},{"start":7318.116,"end":7344.434,"text":"按照我們的組織章程的話那是不是由立法院院長來接任董事長這個好像照他的章程好像要經過會議董事會的會議來決定還是執行長可能會比較清楚一點請這個黃執行長請教一下這個按照基金會的章程這個慣例是不是由立法院院長來接任董事長"},{"start":7345.454,"end":7367.708,"text":"報告委員依照章程董事長是由董事互推產生但慣例上是的確由立法院院長來擔任立法院院長大概是按照慣例都是由立法院院長來擔任基金會的董事長按照慣例的話接下來台灣民主基金會的董事長應該就是韓院長"},{"start":7369.523,"end":7390.383,"text":"對,依照慣例是這樣那請教一下,因為這個韓院長是哪時候接任董事的?必不董事的?報告委員在2月1號韓院長報到就任之後他就已經成為基金會的當然董事那請問一下,那按照這個章程來講這個原本的這個董事長是我們的前院長這個游錫堃游院長"},{"start":7393.266,"end":7397.308,"text":"按照章程我們必須在4月30號以前完成新任董事長的推選所以大概還剩一個月的時間"},{"start":7421.667,"end":7439.62,"text":"大概一個月出頭那剩下這一個月的時間裡面我再請教一下這個執行長剩下的這個時間裡面這個召開董事會這個是由誰來召開的是由誰主動來召開的這個是由我們外交部主動來召開的呢那還是由這一個韓院長來決定說何時要召開的"},{"start":7442.032,"end":7442.552,"text":"現在主動權是在我們的吳部長嗎?"},{"start":7463.766,"end":7490.672,"text":"當然代理董事長要開會如果涉及到新任董事長的推舉我想他應該會跟韓院長商量開會時間那請教一下執行長那你知道吳部長有跟韓院長有商量這個何時要召開董事會的時間了嗎我知道吳部長在2月23已經見了韓院長那已經跟韓院長提出董事長改選的事情"},{"start":7491.619,"end":7500.987,"text":"所以說這個部長找過院長了那現在就是說看院長有沒有時間或是說院長何時方便來召開這個董事會是配合這個我們韓院長的時間嗎?"},{"start":7503.019,"end":7526.097,"text":"報告委員基於尊重韓院長這個開會時間只要韓院長跟吳代理董事長講說可以開會那吳代理董事長有交代我們馬上就可以來發開會通知所以現在聽起來沒有什麼誰卡誰的問題嘛那現在很簡單現在就是說這個按照章程就是4月底之前一定要這個開會要選出新任的董事長"},{"start":7528.839,"end":7544.894,"text":"現在吳部長也去跟韓院長見過面了那我想也似乎問這個韓院長就是說何時方便因為大概要尊重他的時間嘛那尊重他的時間看韓院長哪時候方便召開這個董事會按照這個執行長講法應該是這樣的程序吧"},{"start":7546.39,"end":7559.816,"text":"因為部長也不可能是說好那我就決定說比如說4月1號我就要開這個這個董事會也不管這個韓院長的時間嘛這時間理論上這個部長應該會跟這個韓院長先喬好吧就是配合韓院長的時間韓院長我看他也是非常的忙啊"},{"start":7561.246,"end":7585.936,"text":"只要吳代理董事長交代要開會我們就會發開會通知事實上我們也都準備好了因為我們還有決算案也要來處理決算案的日期是在4月15對阿所以我現在看外界有些報導就是說在卡韓這個不讓這個韓院長接任董事長如果按照執行長這樣說明的話那我聽起來沒有什麼卡韓阿現在就是配合這一個韓院長的時間嘛只要韓院長時間可以了"},{"start":7588.317,"end":7612.274,"text":"那這個基金會這邊就準備好然後就是開會然後就來決定說這一個接下來這一個基金會董事長的這個候選人選然後接下來執行長人選吧應該是這樣子吧是的那看起來因為看外界對於這次這個民主基金會董事長還有執行長的這一個過程風風雨雨啦我是想說藉著這個過程把這個話講清楚那現在就是說只要基金會準備好了"},{"start":7612.594,"end":7640.359,"text":"部長也去見過這個韓院長了那只要韓院長這邊的時間方便能夠配合那也希望說順利能夠在4月底之前董事會能夠召開也把這個順利把董事長選出來好不好謝謝好謝謝謝謝主席李昆城委員那次長請回好執行長請回好接下來進行詢答的委員是牛許廷委員好謝謝主席齁這個次長有請來廷次長請"},{"start":7647.529,"end":7667.62,"text":"委員您早市長早安辛苦了今天討論的是美選對台灣的影響當然免不了聊聊中美關係聊聊兩岸關係本期過去是內政委員會的委員我們曾經質詢過陸委會質詢過海基會當初的主委跟董事長其實我們都討論過美中關係的議題也討論過兩岸的議題"},{"start":7669.861,"end":7679.257,"text":"那大體上來講他們都認為說這個中美對抗的態勢如果往緩和的方向走的話也有助於降低這個台海的這個衝突風險請問次長同意這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":7682.403,"end":7682.643,"text":"目前發生的事情之下"},{"start":7706.465,"end":7733.439,"text":"目前沒有我們堅持我們堅守的很嚴格我們跟美國的關係也一直維持的相當好跟歐盟的關係也維持的非常好日本韓國都維持的非常好所以按照這樣子的國際趨勢的一個走向目前來講對中華民國來說是不錯的因為大的環境和緩了但相對來講我們國家利益沒有被犧牲是這樣做的嗎是的但是還可以更好還可以更好那你要不要說明一下怎麼樣可以更好"},{"start":7735.342,"end":7759.302,"text":"當然如果說民主國家能夠大家再來研究這個民主制度所帶來的一些對民生樂利的事情那麼把台灣怎麼樣推到國際組織那麼台灣加入國際組織是對國際組織本身是有幫助的我們並不是為了加入而加入這是一個互相的對不對沒錯比如說世界衛生組織好了"},{"start":7759.502,"end":7763.004,"text":"以次長的經驗來看,美中關係如果是緩和的局勢,比較有助於完成我們剛剛次長講的希望達成的目標,還是對抗的態勢的時候比較容易完成這樣的目標?"},{"start":7786.127,"end":7800.37,"text":"我沒有辦法告訴您這個不太確定很難很難這個國際關係變化萬千這個很難那他各有看一看中國他是基於什麼條件對這個牽涉到雙邊之間的談判的條件對不對好沒有關係這我們後面來討論"},{"start":7801.391,"end":7822.48,"text":"那今天這個外交部的書面報告有講因為現在我們還是討論美國大選嘛就要慎防美國選情升溫之下兩岸議題操弄變成一個政治攻防的議題喔市長要不要說明一下操弄是什麼意思怎麼樣的操弄舉個例子給大家說明一下剛才委員也提到不是您喔你前面的委員提到比如說這個假訊息的假如說比如說是認知作戰的"},{"start":7828.792,"end":7843.028,"text":"比如說他們提供一些誘因的我覺得各方方面面都會有一些被操弄的一些影響在的話這對我們這個並不是一個好的現象"},{"start":7844.076,"end":7870.771,"text":"並不是一個好的現象我所謂操弄您了解我的意思嗎因為你剛剛講的是認知作戰也就是說他們彼此之間會不會用假訊息的方式去竊選那是另外一個層面但是你的報告是寫說兩岸議題被操弄換言之就是兩岸議題也許是民主黨的候選人或共和黨的候選人針對兩岸議題的表態或者是拿來做政治攻防的工具然後對這個對我國的國家利益造成衝擊目前看起來有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有可能發生這樣的事可能事實是有但是我們密切觀察"},{"start":7873.065,"end":7892.904,"text":"外交部的立場應該不希望發生這樣的事對不對?當然不希望我們可以看出來現在這個民主黨執政的民主黨現在的走向看起來是往緩和的方向走我們剛剛有討論過那他的對手曾經開啟中美貿易戰的川普你覺得他以目前你們的所知他會希望美中關係是緩和還是對抗?"},{"start":7896.482,"end":7897.722,"text":"目前你掌握的狀況,你們對選舉的研判是怎麼樣的?"},{"start":7913.759,"end":7930.984,"text":"我們從兩個角度來看一個中美對抗第二個是印太戰略的這兩個東西的其實是有一點點矛盾的如果說印太戰略要守得好的話那勢必要對中國比較採取比較嚴格的比較強硬如果說對"},{"start":7933.005,"end":7947.744,"text":"中國比較軟的印太戰略可能就沒有辦法向他推動這麼好因為2017年是川普推動印太戰略對他來講他非常非常重要所以你的評斷川普相對來講可能會讓對抗稍微往對抗的方向靠攏一點我們不要講說很極端這樣對不對"},{"start":7949.827,"end":7949.847,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":7974.438,"end":8000.305,"text":"我們的國家利益被拿去他們中美雙方強權談判的交換籌碼這一點事情外交部一定要充分的掌握不要讓彼此間的衝突影響我們的國家利益今天因為時間有限我們沒有辦法深入探討但初步來做這樣一個對話也希望外交部好好掌握更重要的是我同意剛剛大家我們自己做政治總要守住自己的立場關注好內政問題可能比較重要好不好好謝謝好次長辛苦了謝謝那田次長請回接下來進行勳搭委員是徐曉新委員"},{"start":8013.213,"end":8013.776,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請次長"},{"start":8021.469,"end":8047.34,"text":"學員,您早。早安。司長,我想先問一下,馬前總統即將要到大陸去訪問。現在也傳出說可能會有馬席二會。我想要請問從外交部的立場以及相關的研判資訊的理解,如果馬前總統與習近平主席見面,傳達和平、區域穩定的主張,就你們的掌握對於台灣幾個相當重要的國家,例如美國跟日本,"},{"start":8047.68,"end":8071.68,"text":"他們的態度會是保持肯定的嗎：或者是會有什麼樣的一些想法跟思維這一次當然他有沒有見到面我們還不知道這是媒體在揣測的假如說有的話中華民國的利益不應該被犧牲掉這是非常重要的是那您認為說會因為這樣子的會面中華民國的利益有所犧牲嗎還是說這個是判斷在於說馬前總統是帶什麼樣的主張"},{"start":8075.583,"end":8083.939,"text":"那假使說在維護中華民國主權以及傳遞兩岸和平跟區域穩定的情況之下那世界各國會怎麼樣看待這個馬錫會二會"},{"start":8088.969,"end":8110.319,"text":"這個我們還要看看習近平怎麼樣來結招了你要看習近平要怎麼樣結招那麼如果說能夠把這個中華民國主權我們的民主、我們的人權以及我們這些過去的過往經濟的發展等等能夠很忠實的傳達到對岸能夠減少對岸的敵意"},{"start":8114.401,"end":8126.597,"text":"我相信這應該是一個正面的發展但是呢中國會這麼容易接受嗎他裡面講的很多條件可能也不見得我們能夠接受的這就是兩岸需要實際來溝通嘛"},{"start":8131.784,"end":8148.857,"text":"我要問一下我們談到我們自己的主權很重要的最重要其中一個是我們的經濟情況我們看一下我們這幾年來斷交了非常多的國家我們也發現說斷交的國家有很多國家都跟台灣實際上是欠錢沒有還的"},{"start":8149.918,"end":8172.193,"text":"例如巴拿馬、多明尼加、布吉納法索、薩爾瓦多、索羅門群島、吉里巴斯、尼加拉瓜、宏都拉斯跟諾魯有太多的國家跟我們斷交之後積欠我國債務的情況那請問目前處理的狀況如何?那他們還的貸款是只還了利息還是本金都有穩定的在償還?"},{"start":8173.868,"end":8174.749,"text":"當然,欠錢本來就要還錢"},{"start":8199.873,"end":8216.461,"text":"我們要問說這9個國家斷交之後的相關的還錢的進度是什麼因為這是涉及到國家人民的納稅錢我們是立法委員就是來幫大家勘緊荷包所以我們想知道說你在跟我們建交的時候跟我們來借款我們當然是願意一起來朋友嘛一起來合作來協作"},{"start":8217.461,"end":8239.867,"text":"但斷交以後我們包含是追款跟追債的角度是不是來說要加強不然他比如說他斷交了之後跟我們斷交跟中國大陸借交他又跟中國大陸又借錢還我們的錢又還很慢那台灣人不就被當盤子嗎會有很多人有這樣的想法所以我想要問細節就是說斷交國家這9個國家目前還款的情況是怎麼樣可不可以跟大眾說明一下"},{"start":8240.767,"end":8255.1,"text":"這些國家貸款案都依照合約的規定正常的還本以及還息都有那如果有些國家他比如說他還本還息的速度狀況比較慢的話我們有什麼樣積極的處置作為"},{"start":8256.781,"end":8259.565,"text":"所以變成是說我們的邦交國跟我們借錢的時候對我們來協助的相關的商業銀行來說是一個很大的風險"},{"start":8272.725,"end":8293.127,"text":"因為他可能之後就斷交了之後他還錢的速度等等的他變成是商業那外交部在這個過程當中就是說如果我們的斷交國欠錢沒有還然後呢一段時間了那我們的外交部把他當成是一個單純的商業行為沒有其他的協助嗎沒有協助我國的商業型銀行向這個斷交的國家持續去催款嗎"},{"start":8295.412,"end":8315.484,"text":"跟委員報告斷交以後這個款項已經是商業行為了對這就是公公我理解你的意思但他就是一個很詭異的地方嘛他今天如果不是跟我們有當交的話那他也不會跑來跟我們的銀行借錢所以當初在借錢的時候是透過所謂外交的手段一起共同合作來協助的"},{"start":8316.545,"end":8343.502,"text":"可是一旦斷交之後那外交部的角色被抽掉了變成是一個單純的商業行為我就問我們台灣的銀行要去跟這些斷交的國家催債那在外交部沒有其他支援援助的情況下面要怎麼樣能夠做到呢欠債還錢連在台灣自己對本國人追債可能都有困難了你要追到斷交的前邦交國去到底要怎麼做到我們外交部在這件事情協助商業銀行的積極性手段有哪一些"},{"start":8344.76,"end":8362.333,"text":"跟委員報告在商業貸款的時候他們國家要提出相當的擔保這個擔保如果說他沒有還款的話他有兩個現象第一個國際債性他就很差國際債性他下次再債可能就很貸不到"},{"start":8362.833,"end":8391.721,"text":"他們可能都一直都沒有到很好嘛因為他是用外交手段去來借款的嘛我們當時借他錢的時候是以他的受信平等來作為要不要借他錢的決定嗎也不是啊我們是因為他是我們的邦交國啊所以這個部分看起來成效有限請您繼續說另外一個手段是什麼另外一個手段我們就有相當的抵押的東西嘛所以我們有沒有曾經過去有任何的跟我們的斷交國家他們當初提供的抵押品最後我們的銀行把他收走的有這樣的案例嗎"},{"start":8392.526,"end":8397.516,"text":"目前他是正常的還款速度貸款的合約的擔保人是誰?"},{"start":8397.516,"end":8398.738,"text":"當時借款的擔保人?"},{"start":8401.954,"end":8423.866,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說雖然我們的貸款是商業合約的方式但是合約都會有明定就是說在凍支的時候包括政府的本票包括這個國會的議決書包括這個檢調單位的一些文件等等這些都是對方國家所出具的主權擔保"},{"start":8425.187,"end":8451.318,"text":"所以針對這個擔保品的部分呢我們未來如果有任何違約的狀況都可以按照合約的爭端解決機制循司法途徑所以我們合約的擔保人是誰就是跟這九個斷交國當時在借款的時候我們一定合約當中借款上面有寫擔保人嘛擔保人是哪一個單位如果在每一個合約裡面都是對方的政府"},{"start":8451.778,"end":8471.047,"text":"對方的政府是擔保人那今天如果說對方他還不出錢的時候我們根據所有的合約我們前面有沒有曾經有先例就不管是在誰的任內斷交就中華民國史上有沒有曾經有案例是對方因為沒有還出錢來然後去把他們擔保品收回來的有這樣的案例嗎"},{"start":8472.708,"end":8496.89,"text":"跟委員報告我們曾經有勝訴過然後勝訴之後呢然後都會都會按照這個這個實務上面就是去查扣他的可抵押的資產那誰去查扣呢我們會有銀行委託的律師銀行委託的律師但是我們在這些邦交國我們當時在借款的時候都是選擇在這些邦交國有我們的銀行在嗎"},{"start":8497.802,"end":8523.384,"text":"那誰去做這件事就以你剛剛的案例來說是誰來處理這件事情我們的銀行我們的銀行來處理這件事情那最後做一個結論就是說呢斷交國現在9個國家跟我們的欠款我們還是希望第一個要公開透明的告知大眾那他們欠款的還款情況第二個政府也應該要強硬起來來跟我們的這些斷交國要求他們盡快的幫欠台灣的錢能夠還回來謝謝"},{"start":8525.145,"end":8541.576,"text":"好 謝謝徐曉清委員 次長請回好接下來進行詢答委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員不在林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在接下來詢答委員陳培宇委員沒關係慢慢來"},{"start":8563.018,"end":8578.093,"text":"好 謝謝主席這邊有請部長好了 謝謝部長今天我們請工假次長 對不起 次長對 部長今天請假 謝謝他有可能會升部長沒關係謝謝主席的暗示那也祝福你 祝福你次長"},{"start":8580.643,"end":8581.644,"text":"關於這個運動外交的部分,不知道次長您對於運動外交這個部分您有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":8605.385,"end":8632.752,"text":"運動外交我只能跟委員報告那麼上一次的我們的奧運得到了很多美的金牌大家都知道我覺得這個運動的外交達到了極端的一個效果最大的效果那麼我們很多的運動員在國際的競技場域上把中華民國台灣帶到了國際的這個運動場這個是非常非常了不起的事情"},{"start":8633.512,"end":8642.356,"text":"這確實是一個而且是一般國人看起來都會很有感的部分了那我們來分享一下目前有台灣日這個部分不知道您知不清楚台灣日這個活動其實是美國大聯盟球隊紐約大都會的活動他們從2005年就開始舉辦"},{"start":8650.02,"end":8677.657,"text":"主要的原因是因為大都會對主場非常靠近皇后區法拉盛而這裡從1980年代就開始聚集非常多的台灣移民法拉盛曾經還被稱為小台北到目前為止都還是美國東岸最多亞洲移民聚集的區域之一所以大都會對希望可以透過台灣日的活動拉近跟台灣當地居民的關係跟距離雖然這不是台灣外交部官方促成的活動"},{"start":8678.197,"end":8687.102,"text":"可是也確實看到他其實很重要的兩方往來的窗口之一其實我們在這個影片裡面這個照片裡面我們甚且在左上角還有看到蔡英文總統透過這個畫面跟當地的人們打招呼還有台灣的導演李安甚至呢下一任的總統賴清德跟蕭美琴有這個照片在這邊不知道次長您清不清楚這個活動也就是說如果我們有機會把台灣日當成是一個很重要的讓大家認識台灣然後跟台灣交朋友"},{"start":8707.233,"end":8713.957,"text":"是不是一個很棒的國民外交、運動外交?當然是當然是那我們來看一下可是假設這個活動它就要有一些改變的話怎麼辦呢?我們到底還可以做哪些事情?我們來看一下紐約大都會對台灣日目前新聞說可能要停辦其實我們覺得蠻意外也很可惜可是我剛剛已經先說它不是官方的活動那次長您有跟相關同仁討論一下你覺得有沒有機會我們可以幫上什麼忙?"},{"start":8735.335,"end":8751.328,"text":"這個案子我們已經請我們駐紐約的辦事處去深刻的瞭解跟相關的單位再進一步去洽談到底是哪一方面這個大概沒有聯繫好或者有這些訊息傳出來"},{"start":8752.389,"end":8762.214,"text":"所以我們這邊是有意願希望有機會他可以繼續辦嗎?對不對?好那我們來看一下其實我這個投影片上也幫您整理了除了紐約大都會對2005年其實奧克蘭運動家在2022年也有洛杉磯天使對2023西雅圖水手2024也就是說這麼多美國大聯盟球隊都開始辦自己的臺灣日活動我相信你也認為這是非常好的一種外交方法"},{"start":8776.542,"end":8784.228,"text":"那這邊是不是也可以請外交部的同仁主動協同僑委會一起去促成更多的球隊來辦台灣日你覺得有沒有這個機會先開啟這個討論好了當然不是請大家立刻就行動而是開啟相關的討論您覺得有沒有可能"},{"start":8791.573,"end":8809.96,"text":"我們會跟僑委會去稍微談一談那麼怎麼樣的過程怎麼樣能夠把我們台灣日在這個利用這個運動的場合把它發揚光大我覺得這個才是比較重要的那如果只是開啟相關跨部會的初次討論有沒有機會再"},{"start":8811.44,"end":8814.822,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們會後呢,我們會先跟僑委會去做一個接觸。我在這裡可能沒有辦法說一個月、兩個月、三個月,但是我可以保證,我們在一個月之內會把接觸的結果跟做一個報告。"},{"start":8831.889,"end":8831.909,"text":"劉柏鈞"},{"start":8848.779,"end":8862.446,"text":"劉柏鈞,他很重要,他其實跟美國國務院他們有合作一個全球運動導師計劃,那這件事情我現在從影片上沒有劉柏鈞的照片,但是我們想問一下劉柏鈞他本人在台灣其實也創立了台灣運動好事協會,那他同時響應跟美國國務院的合作"},{"start":8868.749,"end":8898.029,"text":"這件事情其實也是一個很重要的運動外交甚且我在前一陣子還去參加他們跟法國合作的關於推廣奧運的這個活動也就是說他做了一個非常多在民間的交流這個部分可能也是您不熟悉他確實也不是官方的角色但是有沒有機會跟外交部這邊許願我個人跟球員一起許願有沒有運動外交或國際人才的交流其實美國跟法國在這些活動當中做了很好示範也不是只有劉伯鈞我只是把它當成一個特殊的案例來講"},{"start":8898.769,"end":8924.571,"text":"那這個部分我們也希望透過外交政策的一些調整讓更多的運動人才交流透過民間的活動可以來舉辦,可以嗎?好,謝謝陳委員指教好,謝謝市長,謝謝,謝謝主席,謝謝我可以跟你講另外還有一隊在稻妻也有台灣人但是人家上市公司我不能替他宣布對,所以我們也不敢幫謝謝市長多運動好不好好,謝謝主席,謝謝市長,謝謝接下來進行詢問的委員是林益君委員"},{"start":8938.993,"end":8941.254,"text":"主席 有請次長次長早次長今天報告主題是美國2024年大選過程對我國及印太地區的衝擊及影響對吧是"},{"start":8958.291,"end":8971.78,"text":"但是你們昨天晚上交出來這5頁的報告裡面基本上就是整理了美國過去幾年對台灣的一些軍事跟外交上面的協助那請問次長美國大選期間對台灣的衝擊到底在哪裡影響在哪裡然後這樣的報告會不會有點離譜呢"},{"start":8977.721,"end":8999.868,"text":"首先我們想從美國大選兩個候選人對台灣過去對台灣的政策來分析美國大選後對台灣或者印太的地區會不會產生衝擊那麼我們的評估到目前為止不管是哪一個候選人勝選"},{"start":9002.287,"end":9028.5,"text":"美國整個對台灣的政策或者對印太地區的政策不至於有很大的變動因為我們過去跟兩黨的兩黨的這個官員也好國會議員也好都建立了非常良好的關係這是第一點第二點呢其實我們回頭看看台灣所扮演一個角色我們在這個自由民主這個這個camp這個"},{"start":9032.022,"end":9047.731,"text":"自由民主這個群裡面我們是扮演非常非常重要的一個角色除了在地緣政治上面來說第二呢在自由民主以及經濟方面都是足以跟他們做一個相當重要的一個夥伴"},{"start":9049.501,"end":9068.308,"text":"我針對報告裡面我覺得缺少的部分我直接請教次長我們都知道美國已經決心要跟中國進行長期的戰略競爭然後把中國視為美國的戰略對手已經是兩黨的共識只是兩黨對達成的目標的方法不同,對嗎?是的那請問民主黨跟共和黨的差別是在哪裡?"},{"start":9077.282,"end":9099.64,"text":"這個問題可能要回到比較原始兩黨的一個政策來講比如說共和黨跟民主黨他的基本的政策就是不一樣的一個是要求一個大政府一個是要求小政府一個是要走這個比如說照顧一些"},{"start":9101.561,"end":9102.221,"text":"外交部長報告"},{"start":9113.988,"end":9117.549,"text":"川普時期的時候美國傾向用關稅戰和貿易戰的方法對中國直接對抗相對來說拜登政府採取的比較像戰略家李德哈特提出的間接的路線所以用比較戰略性的方法"},{"start":9131.974,"end":9133.995,"text":"拜登政府會不會為了展現自己對中國的有夠強硬．而對中國有比較多挑釁的行為呢?"},{"start":9163.034,"end":9168.396,"text":"這個我們不便在這裡做揣測。不便做這個揣測。市長判斷一下這段時間北京當局對美國的舉動會比較忍讓還是比較會強力揮擊呢?跟委員報告,這個選舉東西它可能比較牽涉到我們在這裡不方便做任何的評論跟猜測。"},{"start":9185.383,"end":9200.782,"text":"我再問其他問題好了面對中共近年來不斷的擴張武力威脅到印太地區的繁榮穩定每日台三個國家其實都有非常緊密的雙邊互動跟情報交流是不是這樣是的"},{"start":9202.878,"end":9221.783,"text":"但到目前為止好像都是美日還有美台然後這種雙方的交流關係然後北溪想要請教次長基於維護印太地區的繁榮穩定的共同利益外交部有沒有可能考慮推動一個包含美日台三國政府的高層人員的三邊戰略溝通平台呢?"},{"start":9224.273,"end":9250.765,"text":"其實我們在這個印太地區您剛剛提的除了美日台其實美日韓也有澳洲也是加入這個陣營現在包括紐西蘭也想加入這個陣營更別談到印度在這一塊也是非常重要的player所以其實這個牽涉的不光是美日台而已其實牽涉到整個印太地區的國家"},{"start":9251.636,"end":9264.191,"text":"其實這個想法其實之前都很多人提過啦但是扁政府的時候有事的推動過但是包含柯文哲在選舉期間也有提過但是其實這個很可惜啦到現在都沒有實現前幾年有舉辦過臺美日的三國國會議員對話的線上論壇但是日本自民黨"},{"start":9271.44,"end":9297.515,"text":"副總裁麻生泰郎甚至也有出席但是如果把這種類似的會議從立法部門轉成行政國安單位的對話那其實三方的戰略溝通平台的出行就有了那是不是外交部會要努力去推動這樣啊如果成功的話那對印太地區的安全保障是不是會比較有重大的意義呢還是次長你有沒有什麼比較推動的想法呢"},{"start":9298.996,"end":9324.09,"text":"您剛剛那個想法其實外交部一直在做但是我們覺得印太地區我們光講2016年的新南向政策來說就有18個國家那麼18個國家我們除了在經貿方面其實在區域安全我們也透過一些管道跟他們的智庫跟他們的1.5軌進行一些對話跟政策的一些交換"},{"start":9325.692,"end":9340.57,"text":"最近我們也參加了新加坡的香格里拉對話我們也參加了印度的雷剛對話這等等的都是我們利用這些對話的一些管道跟他們進行這些相關區域安全等等的一些交流"},{"start":9342.906,"end":9352.611,"text":"我還有一個問題就是根據台灣民意基金會前年的一個民調有43%的台灣民眾相信如果中國入侵台灣的話日本會為了台灣出兵那請問次長你既然台日關係跟他講說如果那麼緊密的話那你是否認同中國侵略台灣的時候日本會出兵協助台灣呢"},{"start":9366.575,"end":9386.641,"text":"台灣有事就是日本有事這句話是安倍首相顧首相他所提出來的那這句口號基本上也得到相當多的日本民眾的一些支持那麼現在這個已經談到就是台灣有事"},{"start":9387.741,"end":9405.541,"text":"印太也會有事所以說呢大家都有一些共同的理念怎麼樣維護印太地區的和平穩定這是大家在這個區域裡面大家的一個共識所以我相信台灣有事他們大家都會出來做一些聲援"},{"start":9406.021,"end":9417.152,"text":"因為上週外交家雜誌有一篇比較熱門的文章有討論到這個問題但是這一個篇我就有提到2022年日本一份全國性的調查只有22.5%的日本民眾支持日本為台灣出兵並與美國並肩作戰有74.5%的民眾反對日本出兵"},{"start":9427.822,"end":9446.242,"text":"另外我看了這個是比較擔心的是在同一個調查中大概有一半的民眾支持美國在台衝突的時候使用駐日美軍基地另外一半認為應該要關閉駐日美軍基地所以這樣看起來要能夠有夠嚇阻中共犯台的野心主要是要靠我們自己的強軍備戰"},{"start":9448.784,"end":9466.124,"text":"市長您覺得呢?確實,我想政府已經在做怎麼樣加強我們自衛的自我防衛的能力怎麼樣加強我們不對稱戰力的那麼能夠有些like-minded country能夠幫助我們當然是非常感謝但是我們不能期待人家來幫助"},{"start":9468.042,"end":9469.162,"text":"請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關的已書面"},{"start":9495.908,"end":9520.427,"text":"與兩週內答覆．本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分．或約定要求處理或補充資料者．也請相關單位在約定的時間內．或兩週內提供。那我印象紅山委員那是約定一個月嘛好那接下來我們要處理的是上一屆啦我們上一屆的"},{"start":9521.528,"end":9544.958,"text":"解凍案有2個案子是需經同意使得凍資那剛才已經宣讀過了吧已經宣讀過了那2個案各位在場的委員看一下在討論事項第一案跟第二案分別是凍結50萬有關拉美斯的預算還有管社的預算等等第一案不知道各位有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":9547.383,"end":9559.469,"text":"第一案如果沒有意見的話我們就照案同意解凍第二案有關關涉的部分各位有沒有意見好來請徐曉欣委員那個麥克風然後台冰箱"},{"start":9575.666,"end":9595.067,"text":"在這個第二案的部分就是說它整體的這個包含是有幾個要購置的像是駐洛杉磯駐舊金山然後還有波士頓那它整體的這個規劃金額修建都比較龐大那我們是裡面呢大家可以看裡面寫的內容都"},{"start":9596.709,"end":9606.64,"text":"蠻簡略的喔那我們都希望說可以更了解一下到底實際上面這整體的這個經費運用上面他構置的計畫的詳細細目是什麼那再再討論好不好我的意見是這樣"},{"start":9611.185,"end":9626.959,"text":"謝謝徐小新委員因為我們上一屆這個案跟討論很久像那個洛杉磯的新館當時我們還有去看那因為新的委員沒有經歷那一段我們是不是請外交部是不是做一個因為那個很多細節每個地方所以overall的先報告"},{"start":9628.76,"end":9655.976,"text":"那許委員如果有特別針對哪一個部分也可以提出詢問那如果今天真的說明不清楚的話我也建議有關管處個別委員有意見的話你們去做個報告因為像夏威夷還有一個我們還有一個公司在夏威夷然後在泰國新購的管社那我們在中東也賣掉過一個管社這個大概都是過去這將近10年內發生的事情有關這個解凍案是我看一下"},{"start":9656.756,"end":9662.9,"text":"是駐外機構官社的部分是不是哪一位來做一個概要的報告秘書處處長來處長請清除檢要命題"},{"start":9672.574,"end":9696.345,"text":"我想委員關心的主要就是過去10年我一個管轍購置的那個計畫那基本上過去10年有具體的那個事實上有一些具體的進展包括芝加哥、歐盟、泰國、洛杉磯、布里斯本、捐贈山以及義大利都有實質的購置那Boston這個案子是因為10年前那時候在那個就是列為購置案的時候那那個"},{"start":9697.245,"end":9726.064,"text":"因為後來也同時第一個就本身Boston這個案子當時就是C級的就是說不是第1最優先的那第二個呢因為在後來又有歐盟或是同時期的有其他的管轄公司洛杉磯辦事處的構思案所以那個當時到考慮到整個政府財政的情況呢所以Boston這個案子就不要延後那個以上基本報告那如果委員還詳細需要更詳細的每個構思案的那個我們在會後再提供給委員"},{"start":9727.364,"end":9755.281,"text":"主席我想是這樣因為我們剛好換一屆新的國會據主席剛剛講到過去有很多的細節的討論但是因為我們新進來的關係所以目前看到報告還有說明上面會比較簡略一些所以既然說要討論的話那我希望是不是可以先會後提供給我們像你們跟上一屆的委員們所說明的詳細的資訊之後我們再來進行這個結凍的部分好不好這樣好不好因為這兩筆預算坦白講不大啦50萬"},{"start":9756.702,"end":9756.722,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":9771.759,"end":9799.702,"text":"對新的委員有一些比較專案性的報告我這邊再要說明我看到的部分像洛杉磯的管社我們第一次買買失敗後來繞了很大一圈因為在舊金山、洛杉磯租金越來越貴所以後來在那個向著好萊塢那個山脈地方買到那一棟那個好像原來是銀行買了之後他們就簽約找人家來裝潢遇到COVID-19那個約一言再言然後我們要換解掉合約"},{"start":9800.623,"end":9823.525,"text":"那個包商還提告那我就比較倒楣在他們在提告的時候我去看的那個地方很大的空間就沒辦法裝潢後來又加價又進行所以在美國還有他們的工會啊什麼的很多部分啦齁那澳洲那邊也有類似的案子所以真的每個管社的狀況都不太一樣那在夏威夷我也跟各位委員說夏威夷我們有個松鶴公司吧"},{"start":9824.785,"end":9852.851,"text":"鬆合公司是我們外交部百分之百的公司持有夏威夷的那一個compound在那裡所以那邊又不太一樣又不是用外交部經過一個鬆合公司在管理那個物業那個物業還有營收還有出租那個房子像古蹟一樣百年的房子光修的錢我看搞不好比租金還貴了所以很多細節狀況那個沒辦法用同一樣的概況來描述所以看徐委員怎麼樣第一個是不是讓他過"},{"start":9853.891,"end":9876.323,"text":"那因為我們這已經上一屆凍結了啦我們今天再繼續凍也不是處理這個案的方式那另外一個方式是那他們事後來說明如果說明的不清楚我們年底還會再審他這個預算每年都要的啦那個都還沒裝潢好嘛通通都還沒裝好大筆的錢在後面啦是不是這個解凍案我們讓他過然後我們後續再來處理不知道你意下怎麼樣"},{"start":9877.197,"end":9903.519,"text":"好 沒問題 尊重主席才是 謝謝好 謝謝徐曉欣委員好 我們第二案先遭案解凍通過但是請秘書處你們是不是專程找個時間去個別委員特別許委員這邊看他詢問哪一國什麼狀況那他們真的是每一國都不一樣我們還有買在巷子裡面的嘛 泰國那個從大馬路搬到巷子裡面那個都有故事啦可以去跟委員 讓委員進行了解好請回"},{"start":9904.845,"end":9909.963,"text":"我們解凍案全數通過那各位辛苦本日會議到此結束散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}