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比方說從建七職等然後去做九職等的工作你覺得這也是很正面的一個部分那包括有很多不同的內容可是這部分可能跟現在有一些年輕人的想法可能不太一樣因為你現在你叫他做七職等你去叫他做九職等的工作他可能會覺得你被剝削了"},{"start":113.079,"end":126.634,"text":"等等那因為你在你的那個報告當中你最後你也提到說你過去的經驗的時候事實上你是一個很雞婆能夠比較熱心能夠調和抵賴能夠把你的經驗去做引導後輩的一個這樣的一個"},{"start":127.415,"end":127.615,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":155.492,"end":173.787,"text":"公務員的曾經的工作經驗應該對未來會很有幫助的地方就是說我們要能夠充分的把剛才報告的七成同仁的激勵的部分能夠透過考機或獎程包括您剛剛提到的破格拔佐"},{"start":174.775,"end":193.069,"text":"年輕人也不見得他喜歡這樣子爬格子可是關鍵就是你有一個制度讓他表現那第二個考機能夠讓他一年的工作績效能夠得到該肯定的肯定該否定的否定為什麼因為還是有很多人在看該否定的沒有被否定"},{"start":194.119,"end":215.596,"text":"這就比較麻煩我想這個是我可以做這些方面來貢獻第二個部分我剛才前面也提到過就是說我認為當一個主管或當一個機關的首長他對同仁的照顧尤其跟大家報告的管教養慰他要有這樣的一個修煉有這樣的修養那這樣的話就能夠帶動同仁"},{"start":217.657,"end":236.413,"text":"所以我跟委員報告說我當年被破格拔卓從建十一直接跳建九的科長這是很難可是我們的責任也很大那時候我年輕但是就知道說同仁都在看笑話尤其是科長層級那我們就在這樣的進進業業那麼對同仁"},{"start":239.417,"end":268.283,"text":"我們要勇於負責我想這也是自己的一個要求那這些經驗將來如果有機會在考試院我想在這個相關的考機、獎程、升遷該有能夠主動積極不是像過去只是管人而是要看到他的真正功績要給他肯定我想這個是我願意來貢獻的地方未來若有機會的話是OK你認為現在公務體系當中最需要改革的問題是什麼然後您的具體改革方向是什麼"},{"start":270.236,"end":299.628,"text":"我一開始就跟各位報告就是說我認為考機法是很好來做修改可是我看到考試院提供了很多資料包括最近提的考機法的修正都中途停在那個地方最主要的就是說歸納就是錢獎金不得到大家的這樣的一個支持我想這個還是可以改善可是我的具體建議就是說該考他甲等的我們不要因為財政的限制"},{"start":300.989,"end":321.266,"text":"限制他75%大家覺得75%很多但是對一個機關他也是會有激進同仁全部全年奉獻努力的你也不要讓這樣的主管或首長有這樣線索可是他不應該考甲等的你給他95%就是現在大家的抱怨所以我覺得比如說"},{"start":322.347,"end":330.166,"text":"如果我們不要設限但是條例很清楚符合一二三四項你就該給他夾等不符合的一個都不給"},{"start":330.97,"end":357.772,"text":"第二個部分我認為檢陽報告就是同儕如果你給他自評同人之間如果互相評那再加上主管的賦評最後考機委員會這樣眾人的智慧他一定能夠減少大家的抱怨如果還有抱怨我們公報現在是公開的社會大家都會看這樣的主管做了這樣的考機他有沒有公平我想這應該是可以得到大家支持的修正是不是"},{"start":358.488,"end":378.287,"text":"你有特別提到說在整個通盤檢討中央及地方職務劣等這件事情當中的時候因為確實在中央跟地方機關的職務劣等差異導致地方的人才很容易流失也招募困難這件事情你覺得考試院應該要重視改善你覺得要如何改善你有沒有具體的一個方向要怎麼做"},{"start":379.979,"end":400.496,"text":"簡單講就是說大家提到了全盤的職務列等的檢討如果說要縮小範圍的話我個人倒是建議可以先從縣市跟直轄市其一來做比較這個其一就是說你不要說直轄市的這個層級高相同的職務他就低他一等兩等"},{"start":400.996,"end":428.039,"text":"就是說你只要看他做的工作看他做的職責甚至有些公務員還建議說你看我在偏鄉做的工作的數量不會比直轄市少這部分我們確實也拭目以待因為在地方確實也噴到人才其實很容易流失然後招募不易的問題然後另外就是有關於約聘僱人員長期在政府機關工作當中沒有辦法享受公務人員同等的福利你也提到這個部分要加以改善你覺得要如何去改善"},{"start":429.4,"end":434.64,"text":"因為聘僱最大的問題就是他不屬於公務員他也不是勞工"},{"start":435.595,"end":465.047,"text":"那他們自己就一直在問那我們屬於什麼呢意思就是說在整個人事行政法制裡面沒有針對約聘僱有一套完整的權利義務的保障我想這是我們應該將來有機會要極力來促成但是我以考試院提供的資料我的了解就是說他們已經完成了所謂契約人員人事條例而這個部分將來如果成功他可以把剛才講的約聘人員跟聘僱人員把他納在裡面"},{"start":465.747,"end":489.99,"text":"這樣的話對他整個從禁用、考核、報酬、起價甚至將來的退休給付、工商等等都能夠得到完整的一個權益照片這部分我們其實是有些期待的因為對於整個約聘僱人員確實在地方當中他們定位不明然後權責不明、保障不明所以這確實在地方的公務體系當中很普遍的一個問題所以我們也對於"},{"start":491.531,"end":506.785,"text":"新的考試委員當中是不是能夠取這個問題我們其實是有些期待的那我接下來我想特別問一個因為整個公務人員整個吸引力公務員的一個職缺吸引力不斷在下降我給你看一個數字考選部的資料統計公務員高普考人數從2013年的146209人減少到去年只剩下67339人10年內降幅高達53.89%"},{"start":519.035,"end":531.662,"text":"這麼嚴重的狀態當然有很多一個部分性力下降一定有它的原因那請問您覺得主要原因在什麼地方那您如何要來提升公務職位的競爭力讓更多優秀的人才能夠進入公務體系來"},{"start":532.847,"end":558.101,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說從正面看目前雖然降到七萬、六萬可是我們一年招的是一萬三所以在整個數值來講考試院也做過這樣的一個分析就是說他整個進來的這些學經歷還好就品質沒有變差可是就長程來講誠如委員剛才提的就是說怎麼樣去吸引年輕尤其年輕的公務人員願意進來"},{"start":560.123,"end":574.72,"text":"這個宣導價值觀很重要現在對年輕人來講除了講仇不能夠跟風險不能夠跟工作量來成正比之外他最大的困擾就是公務人員的體系現在做一百件好事只要一件"},{"start":575.481,"end":604.925,"text":"哇那媒體社會就批判那這樣的話對公務人員的成就感正面形象沒有那對年輕人對私人的市場他選材的多元化他的競爭對他的吸引力他怎麼會進到公家機關這是我覺得這個最大的一個隱憂當然就制度上如果我們能夠改善我們的興奉我們的這些值等值別的這些改善能夠有一些誘因能夠吸引優秀的人才進來這也是最好的"},{"start":605.265,"end":615.814,"text":"可是終究不比我們當年當年我們我跟各位委員報告過就是說我們是因為公教子弟受到這樣的一個觀念影響小時候讀書就是為了"},{"start":617.728,"end":643.255,"text":"不是報國打仗就是當公務人員要不然就是教書現在的小朋友沒有這樣的一個概念那怎麼去做宣導上面的改變所以現在考試院我看到他有這個國考的宣講總之團能夠深入校園甚至結合用人機關針對特定的系所特定的考試的類科來做這樣的一個選定標的來宣講我覺得這可能也會是一個有效果的一個方式"},{"start":644.816,"end":657.811,"text":"確實因為薪資待遇、升遷空間還有工作負擔其實三個最主要讓年輕人其實一直沒有走入公務員的三個主要的考量可是我們看到進入公務員的人數也許"},{"start":659.465,"end":673.289,"text":"後來考人數越來越低可是我們也看到離職率不斷的增高我們看到考試院報告2022年公務人員的離職人數達到13500人次比前一年的10990人次增加22.8%一年增加22.8%的離職人次"},{"start":681.352,"end":694.066,"text":"顯示公務體系面臨日益嚴峻的人才流失的狀態針對這樣子離職率上升的問題你認為主要的原因在哪邊如何通過政策的調整能夠有效來降低離職率"},{"start":696.908,"end":714,"text":"這個在之前我也聽過像副院長被提名的人提到就是說除了考試招募人才困難之外你招募進來的人才能夠留住也是非常困難我想這是一個真正的關鍵那麼現在人才因為剛才外面的吸引力很大"},{"start":714.64,"end":738.562,"text":"我們內部如果沒有這樣管理上的一個激勵措施或者向心力的一個培養你要把他留住來尤其對優秀的人才跟外面競逐他一定會跑掉所以我剛才特別報告就是說如果將來有機會我們應該要加強機關的首長或單位的主管在這個領導管理上的一個磨練就是說你要給他有這樣的一個要求"},{"start":738.973,"end":750.051,"text":"而不是只有給他有打考機的權利你打考機完了以後是對同仁向心力團結一個責任這樣的話對人才的留任可能會更有幫助"},{"start":751.153,"end":777.388,"text":"確實是如此因為我覺得怎麼樣提升公務人員的一個在職率的問題確實是一個問題最近勞動部發生的一個職場霸凌的一個案件那我覺得就是一個很明顯的一個狀態其實在目前基層能力配置非常的不足很多單位只有7個人因為負擔12個人的工作量那面對這樣的一個情況你如何你認為要怎麼樣透過更好的一個人力編織跟預算規劃來解決人力短缺的一個問題"},{"start":779.595,"end":793.039,"text":"機關原額一直是政府的一個包袱政府一直強調就是說人事的費用越來越多但是我個人將來若有機會的話我會提供一些意見就是說我們機關的業務"},{"start":795.305,"end":821.542,"text":"也不斷地在成長除非你能夠簡化那如果說我們的機關總額編制總額不能夠突破你怎麼可以要求我們服務的品質提升我想這是一個非常必要要面對的問題所以我想就是說公務機構在這樣的一個狀況你不能夠要馬而好又要馬而不吃草所以這是為什麼說在窮責變的過程各位可以看得到約聘僱的人員不會少"},{"start":822.401,"end":837.027,"text":"他就是希望在這些方面彈性運用那如果是這種情形他的待遇福利又不能夠完全改善的時候這也是我們政府機構包括考試院、人事行政總署我覺得應該要正面面對要不然未來怎麼去跟私人企業來競逐人才"},{"start":838.255,"end":855.648,"text":"因為你剛剛在回答當中你不斷提到跟私人企業的一個職場競爭的一個問題因為你上任工作的時候你是在副班擔任讀董我覺得是一個很特殊而且一個很重要的一個位置那我想特別請教一下針對公務體系跟民間競爭力的落差在職務"},{"start":857.129,"end":871.351,"text":"競爭力落差當中 薪資是一個很重要的考量點您是否支持全面檢討公務員的薪酬結構是否考慮引入彈性工時然後績效獎金等民間的管理模式來提升公務體系的競爭力跟吸引力"},{"start":873.367,"end":892.409,"text":"如果有機會的話我倒是建議這是不得不面對的一個時事的一個趨勢現在不是Z世代的觀念改變時代跟社會都在變那如果說我們公務人員我們的公部門體系還是不能夠跟私部門來做人才競爭的策略思考的話"},{"start":893.01,"end":907.902,"text":"他這個一定是僵化在這個地方所以我們談到就是說現在跟市部門沒有辦法去競爭他已經有彈性他能夠用薪酬來吸引我們公部門還僵化在這些人士報酬升遷獎勵的這樣一個制度這是"},{"start":908.522,"end":908.923,"text":"請問你這邊是不是支持"},{"start":925.942,"end":951.759,"text":"公務人員組成公會或者是錦銷組織公會的相關問題那你之前曾經表示說公務人員跟勞工的身份屬性本質不同那目前的法律不是用公會法本席理解這個狀態那我想說你在指的狀態公會法當中的時候應該指到各級機關跟公立學校公務人員的結社組織其他依其他法律規定"},{"start":952.86,"end":967.773,"text":"所以說我在這邊也特別把那個依照公會法的跟公務人員的相關的協會組成協會的方式做了一個小小的一個比較那在當中的時候因為公會的時候還很清楚保障勞工的結社權、協商權還有一個罷工權、團結議價的一個權利"},{"start":972.897,"end":1001.276,"text":"那公務員這邊的時候呢組織公會當中的時候呢行使爭議權也就是罷工權這個部分您可不可以更具體回應因為你在書面回應的資料當中的時候你提到你是採取一個比較開放的一個觀點可是你提到說目前的關鍵是權益妥善照顧而不是讓他們組成公會針對這個說法你是不是可以更詳細的一個做一個說明"},{"start":1002.264,"end":1008.29,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我的觀察包括錦霄同仁他要的是權力"},{"start":1009.603,"end":1035.924,"text":"權益的照顧這也是我們一再強調國家對公務人員負了基本照顧的責任要不然我們怎麼說他是公法上的職務關係但是公法上的職務關係他在定義他在行使的方式又完全不明那你怎麼去保障公務人員的權益所以我認為我們現在如果說不能夠突破公會法因為公會法你要改變的時候我們團體協商法相關的救濟等等都要改變"},{"start":1036.684,"end":1060.788,"text":"那這個時候所以公務體系現在尋的就是說公務人員協會法來爭取他的團結權爭取他的協商權那如果說有責任他要克責甚至等等那但是這些東西如果你不能夠滿足公務人員的權益保障那這個東西你就必須要做檢討也就是說我認為你不能夠不讓他組織公會可是你又不做他的權益照顧"},{"start":1061.408,"end":1081.657,"text":"我覺得這是政府有失責的地方這也是我一直認為從公務體系出身應該在這些方面要有正確的表達就是說國家有國家的責任主管有主管的責任你不能夠不盡責任而要求我們整個文官體系公務人員不能夠組公會不能夠爭取自己的權益這是我主要的一個看法你認為公務人員組織"},{"start":1085.018,"end":1113.824,"text":"工會你覺得你是朝向一個正面的角度在看待過程當中你覺得政府應該要去妥善的給他們權益的一個保護這是一個過程可是讓公務員組成工會你覺得是應該的我可以這麼理解你的意思嗎我跟委員報告可以開放討論就是說我們原來限制擔憂的因素比如說國家安全公共服務他不能夠不持續來做這些方面的服務只要在不影響這些部分你有限制的他是可以做"},{"start":1114.104,"end":1115.305,"text":"公務員的勞動條件有不合理的規定"},{"start":1137.206,"end":1160.962,"text":"關聯性在齁那所以說我在這邊我也想特別問一下就是你說公務人員跟勞工的身份屬性不同不是用公會法嗎如果未來立法院通過了組織相關一個法律修正案你是不是也支持就公務員組織成公會就你剛剛提到這個部分如果可以開放討論然後立法院也通過了修法你就基本上你就支持我可以這麼理解你的意思嗎"},{"start":1162.512,"end":1189.968,"text":"這個問題在就是說剛才跟委員報告公法上的職務關係他的定義要清楚如果這個部分不能夠清楚他的身份屬性就不會是勞工的關係不會是勞工的關係你要去適用公會法他就是沒有辦法所以我講就是說在這些方面如果在這部分系統上不能夠突破所以我剛才跟委員報告我個人倒是建議就是說國家先組成權益照顧委員會來檢視公務人員的基本權益"},{"start":1190.869,"end":1207.665,"text":"這些做到了以後我們再來做其他方面的改變當然如果法令制度上能夠突破我個人也是會來吸納大家的看法因為你針對這個部分我覺得你公法上的職務關係因為特別權力關係是另外考量的一點"},{"start":1208.726,"end":1234.113,"text":"那我在說你在資料當中你有說到你如果通過審議順利擔任考試委員的時候你會建議提出哪些具體的那個法令的修正來達到你說建立更明確的一個法律規定好 謝謝鄭委員 謝謝鄧備提名人"},{"start":1238.694,"end":1242.611,"text":"全院委員會對考試委員被提名"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}