{"error":false,"id":["157734"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157734,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157734","日期":"2024-12-03","影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-03T15:12:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-03T15:33:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:20:40","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/28156fb6ec38ead3c5a8a29f76587a7313383a67259e8158b61fa763af197a40555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"15:12:32 - 15:33:12","會議時間":"2024-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.589718750000003,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.69471875,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.027843750000002,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":25.191593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.832843750000002,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.42596875,"end":103.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.62221875,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.29784375,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.77784375000002,"end":155.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.20909375000002,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.23784375,"end":162.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.58659375000002,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.38221875000002,"end":186.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.68534375000002,"end":187.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.47846875000002,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.54159375,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.52409375000002,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.78409375,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.23096875000002,"end":215.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.67659375000002,"end":218.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.15284375000002,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.81846875000002,"end":231.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.19721875000002,"end":237.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.85471875000002,"end":237.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.01909375000002,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.87909375,"end":252.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.80159375000002,"end":254.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.64096875,"end":258.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.50534375,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.03221875,"end":269.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.94659375000003,"end":273.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.54096875,"end":276.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.74721875,"end":280.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.40909375,"end":283.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.48034375000003,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.34909375,"end":289.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.33596875,"end":293.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.26784375,"end":294.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.41971875,"end":296.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.00159375000004,"end":301.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.95846875,"end":310.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.04284375000003,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.39596875,"end":347.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.41971875,"end":360.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.57784375,"end":373.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.35659375,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.86659375000005,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.44846875,"end":382.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.31284375,"end":386.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.31659375000004,"end":389.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.13034375,"end":440.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.46846875000006,"end":457.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.90034375000005,"end":461.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.32159375000003,"end":472.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.44221875000005,"end":479.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.75346875,"end":484.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.29284375000003,"end":489.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.42284375,"end":495.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.85221875,"end":498.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.31596875,"end":501.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.60659375000006,"end":504.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.47534375000004,"end":508.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.14971875000003,"end":518.0090937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.09346875,"end":521.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.31659375,"end":524.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.23159375,"end":531.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.9140937500001,"end":534.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.1709687499999,"e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謝謝韓院長我們各位委員各位我們的在場各位好朋友我們請我們呂秋慧考試委員被提名人麻煩再請呂秋慧次長請備詢"},{"start":36.528,"end":53.744,"text":"張委員你好好 非常感謝我們這個呂秋慧這個考試委員被提名人那我本席稍微看一下你的簡歷你從民國73年就已經進入程序部從科員當到這個常務次長那今年在1月解退"},{"start":54.664,"end":83.435,"text":"幾乎您的一輩子都奉獻給全序部、給國家所以在此本席先感謝你的全心的付出等一下也要借用你長期以來的專業向你請教以下問題首先要跟你請教的是請教我們被提名的人大家都很關心的勞動部前北分署長謝宜榮的霸凌案我們都知道霸凌的事情自古以來一直存在"},{"start":84.075,"end":102.52,"text":"上司跟下屬權力本來就不對等遇到不合理不敢伸張不敢請求救援的問題我們可以看到勞動部前何部長在委員會質詢的時候在上午的時候還一直想要護航結果中午接到一通電話以後下午整個這個"},{"start":104.68,"end":123.198,"text":"大翻轉下午就哭哭啼啼以及請辭那卓榮泰院長也下令說對於全部的公務人員的霸凌事件必須要求一周內清查完畢那我想說這是非常讓人痛心的一件事情因為這是一個國家的公務員用親身換來"},{"start":125.701,"end":148.42,"text":"執場霸凌防制的改革的機會那我想要請教我們的被提名人其實在這件事情發生之前其實有一些警示比如說在這個北分署他一年內有80多個人掉離職在一個200多人的公務機關有80多個人掉離職以及有許多的陳情案給民意代表"},{"start":149,"end":169.233,"text":"那都可能都有疑似被施暗的一個問題所以本席要先請教我們的這個呂備提名人您在公務系統已經有40多年的經驗請問您本身有沒有被霸凌的情形還是你身邊有沒有一些公務人員有被霸凌的一些狀況你所知悉的"},{"start":171.321,"end":192.018,"text":"報告委員我覺得全序部相對是一個組織文化非常好的機關這是為什麼我可以在那邊一待42年的原因我自己不管是當承辦人或是當主管基本上在全序部我們比較沒有這種事情"},{"start":193.515,"end":218.015,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝被提名人那所以全序部是一個良善的地方那第二個我要請教剛剛有特別提到有這麼多的這個警示其實可以提早來處理而不是說很多公務單位遇到這些警示都沒有通報或甚至被刺案的情況那我想說針對這樣的事情我想請教被提名人有沒有未來來防止的一個方式"},{"start":219.669,"end":237.246,"text":"的確我覺得霸凌因為現在一個無性公務人員的頑固讓我們大家整個社會國家社會去面臨這個正式這個問題但是我覺得防治比事後處理來得更重要"},{"start":239.228,"end":261.25,"text":"除了法制上從公務人員保障法還有公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法公務人員考機法這些都要加強整建這些法制之外那我覺得我自己看到很多的主管他有的時候他是不曉得怎麼當主管"},{"start":262.291,"end":285.72,"text":"因此我覺得事前的防治可以在各機關加強教育訓練讓這些尤其是出任主管的人因為主管所承擔的責任比較重有時候為了達到機關組織目標的達成比較工作取向的人可能再加上有的個性比較急"},{"start":286.42,"end":308.917,"text":"不曉得怎麼樣去帶領同仁的時候就會發生這種讓人家覺得很不舒服的霸凌所以我覺得訓練很重要事前的教育跟訓練及後續的追蹤考車加上未來法令的這個加嚴那就拜託我們這個被平民人未來當考試委員一起來努力這一個部分那第二個我要請教也是針對這個"},{"start":310.758,"end":333.229,"text":"謝宜榮這個案子其實當時有成立一個調查委員會可是舊新聞媒體跟很多委員的質詢也提出這個調查小組的成員有問題就調查成員的召集人儀式跟這個謝宜榮是好朋友那調查報告裡面的內容也荒腔走板不僅提出這樣子的霸凌這樣子不當管教是利益良善"},{"start":333.989,"end":359.866,"text":"也提出雖然有霸凌的事實﹐可是謝翊榮對親生的公務人員﹐沒有直接關係﹐就讓大眾而嘩然﹐那我是不是可以請教﹐像這樣的調查委員會﹐其實事實上是失去﹐調查小組是失去它的功能﹐那未來您當考試委員﹐對這樣子的關關相互的做法﹐有沒有一些檢討的機制"},{"start":362.11,"end":388.661,"text":"我覺得現在各機關在對霸凌的部分成立這個所謂的調查小組可能還要提升一下它的位階讓它變成一個調查的委員會然後要納入多一點的外部機制的委員那由外面的這些專家參與這個調查委員會的這個調查那盡量去維持它比較公平公平合理的一個結果出來"},{"start":390.805,"end":418.771,"text":"好 謝謝就是說第一個這調查小組要增加更多的外部調查的專業人士而且調升等級而且要做事先的防堵因為這個調查小組出來的報告這個結果可以說是對被害人來講一錘定焉他更是申訴無門所以我非常認同您的看法那第三個我要請教就是針對這個勞動部現在這個霸淫的事件未來我們所有大眾的公務人員要如何來自處因為我們瞭解"},{"start":419.591,"end":439.794,"text":"第一個就是關於這個未來很多公務人員超時加班的問題或是之後在就這件事情在週末的時候接到LINELINE的訊息10分鐘沒有回然後你下禮拜一上班就被檢討這樣子的問題那尤其最近我們新任的勞動部長也帶頭提油救火"},{"start":440.555,"end":466.974,"text":"要求各單位六日都要來跟勞動部長來做一個報告而且還下令封口說這個東西不能對外說所以我擔心這樣子一直不斷不斷的這樣子的一個不良的示範是不是會讓整個我們所有的公務機關覺得說針對未來霸凌的對象是很大的關係尤其如果霸凌的對象是部長"},{"start":467.774,"end":488.218,"text":"那未來我們所有的公務人員有沒有一個什麼樣的機制可以來防範我們對於霸凌的對象如果是首長的話那他其實是可以跟他的上級機關來提出來那至於剛剛委員提到超時加班的問題我們其實在112"},{"start":494.28,"end":507.666,"text":"111年的公務員服務法修正之後：為了保障所有公務人員的健康權：我們有規定公務人員的加班：加上上班時間不得超過60小時"},{"start":509.227,"end":531.167,"text":"那除非你有特殊的專案或緊急事故需要應變那各主管院訂出來的大概也都是80小時所以如果有超過這個時數那這個是明顯違反服務法的相關規定那我覺得我們現在在各機關應該要多建立保訓會也應該多宣導"},{"start":532.108,"end":548.215,"text":"所有副審也好、申訴制度也好他的管道要盡量讓他暢通公務員真的遭受一些不法的對待的時候那他才會有一個救濟的管道能夠把他的所受的委屈能夠傳遞出去"},{"start":550.475,"end":572.651,"text":"好 非常感謝好 那接下來我要請教的是說剛剛提到的就是內部公務人員對公務人員的霸凌的一些情況上級對下級霸凌的一些情況那我們講一些有關於外部的例子在2018年9月那時候有一個牆台叫燕子重創日本關係有一位女性網友率網軍"},{"start":574.833,"end":596.269,"text":"當時稱讚駐日代表謝長廷因為當時就是因為有關係有很多的這個淹水造成很多旅客沒有辦法離開關西機場後來有大陸的這個客車把這些人都帶走就覺得說我們好像駐日代表這邊沒有很好的處置結果想不到這個陽性網友"},{"start":598.01,"end":603.693,"text":"楊姓女網友率領網軍稱讚朱日代表卻羞辱大阪辦事處的蘇啟臣處長後來悲憤傾聲這件事情很多人都已經忘記了後來針對楊姓女網友其實當時有去做"},{"start":622.028,"end":641.542,"text":"一些訴訟一審其實是判六個月可是後來高等法院的時候判的是只有五個月只有五個月可以一顆罰金可是後來這個楊姓女網友有做上訴結果憲法法庭就是我們現在大家吵得最兇的大法官在判決中認為侮辱公務員應屬於對公務員當場羞辱意思就是說這個楊姓的"},{"start":648.206,"end":671.24,"text":"這個網友他沒有主動當面的去羞辱我們這位公務員他是請網軍用請車椅間接的羞辱公務員所以後來判刑是判說侮辱其罪務就是判說有侮辱公務員的職務罪是違憲所以現在已經發回重新來審那我想要請教我們這個被提名人"},{"start":672.28,"end":697.085,"text":"這樣子大法官所判出來的這個違憲就是說沒有直接去羞辱公務人員可是可以用徹意用網軍去羞辱公務人員來去做判決一個違憲我覺得對公務人員而言是一個非常嚴重的打擊那我想要請教您的看法針對大法官所做出來的釋憲基本上"},{"start":699.198,"end":721.865,"text":"我們是尊重但是其實公務人員在執行公務的過程當中我看到的絕大多數的公務員都是非常認真、非常努力的所以我覺得在工作職場上也應該要獲得他們應有的尊敬與尊榮那這個是"},{"start":724.586,"end":736.163,"text":"當然這個不幸事件發生我們都覺得很遺憾但是也希望我們將來的工作職場是能夠越來越友善不要再發生類似的事情"},{"start":738.079,"end":765.018,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來我來請教我們被提名今天很多委員有請教您有關於這個年金改革的議題那我針對這個很多退休的公務人員我想他們心裡最大的傷痛就是當時在年金改革的時候政府有一些官員大罵這個退休的公務人員以及所有的公務人員是米蟲還有當時民進黨的委員也說你們越包圍越抗議年金就砍得越多"},{"start":765.718,"end":784.15,"text":"那現在結果論而言的確讓他們很多的這個退休的公務人員他們的生活非常的困難那大家都說當時他們願意考公務人員的原因雖然薪資比較低可是他們認為都是鐵飯碗政府也有承諾說要保障公務人員的一些信賴保護原則"},{"start":785.091,"end":814.361,"text":"那本席常常有時候有機會常會為一些公務人員發聲我常講一句話公務人服務保護國家跟人民誰來保護公務人員所以針對這公務人員的年金部分當時第一件事所得替代率大砍15%以及每年還要再砍另外的15%每年砍1.5%的部分其實當時很多委員都特別提到他忽略了"},{"start":815.452,"end":822.335,"text":"很多的這個這個澎澎的一些的影響造成很多公務人員他們現在身心靈壓力都很大"},{"start":823.715,"end":851.494,"text":"那我想要請教一下政府是不是應該還給公務人員公道從今年開始起重新來檢討這個我們所有公務人員的年金問題以及就過去不公不義的這個所得替代率的這個大砍跟每年這個所得替代率的下降以及很多委員有請教你的就是沒有依照這個通貨膨脹率固定來去做調整是不是可以請您檢答一下"},{"start":853.197,"end":878.042,"text":"我們其實當時在年金改革的時候有注意到就是針對退休公務人員的這個因應這個通膨的結果會讓他的收入就是物價因為漲太高所以他的退休金就變得好像不夠之用的問題所以當時在67條我們就有訂說通膨CPI如果大於正負的"},{"start":878.922,"end":879.282,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":894.321,"end":912.55,"text":"然後今年的1月也調了4%那已經調了6%但是這個調整是不是能夠足以因應通貨膨脹的這個結果我覺得這個是值得關注的問題啦那至於就是說要停止這個所得替代率"},{"start":913.21,"end":937.788,"text":"的調降繼續調降我剛剛也有提到就是照顧公務人員是政府的責任可是我們要照顧的是兩方的人馬一個是退休的公務人員那也要照顧現職的公務人員所以在財務穩健能夠永續發展的前提之下那我覺得這個議題才有比較能夠調整的空間"},{"start":938.669,"end":960.92,"text":"如果我們精算的結果還是沒有辦法維持一個世代30年的財務穩健的話那我覺得這個要審慎評估好 謝謝當然很多委員也特別跟您說明就是說我們政府最近很有錢所以從每年超收稅收的部分來看111年超收5000多億112年超收3800多億以及今年"},{"start":966.603,"end":990.959,"text":"統計下來超收四千多億這些所以我認為稅務的剩餘部分也可以來當作來考慮撥補我們這個退府基金的一個方式之一給您來做參考那因為時間的問題我要來特別跟您請教兩個現在本席認為非常嚴重的一個問題它這些問題其實是在我們的公務人員退休撫恤法第45條的規定"},{"start":993.16,"end":1019.834,"text":"就是說這我認為非常不合理就是當這個公務人員退休以後他的這個另外一半是非公務人員比如說我們常常見到的警察他在退休的時候他的另外一半是這個家管可是沒有想到他退休以後如果他離開就是這個這個死亡了以後他的另外一半非公務人員的時候只能繼承他的這個退休金的一半"},{"start":1020.82,"end":1039.773,"text":"我本席認為這個非常的不合理因為過去大家長期以來我舉個例子假設是很認真服務的警察常常都是朝九晚五然後很多時間在加班那他可能養了一個家庭結果他在離開了以後結果他的太太"},{"start":1040.673,"end":1068.841,"text":"卻只能領他的退休金的一半來扶持這個家裡有時候家裡的小孩還小而且他一直都做交管嘛因為家裡需要說他來全心來服務家裡可是他離張發原本這個爸爸離開了以後這個媽媽只能領退休金的一半造成他可能還需要二度就業等等出現了很多的家庭的問題啊所以我想要請這個這個考試委員提名人未來是不是可以針對這個部分本期會來修法也希望說你可以來重視這個問題可以嗎"},{"start":1071.852,"end":1090.539,"text":"務人員亡故之後他的配偶大概有一定的條件他可以領二分之一啦那這個是實施是由來已久那委員針對這個部分我想將來我有機會進入考試院服務的話那我會把這個問題再帶回去詳細研究"},{"start":1091.499,"end":1116.313,"text":"對 這個問題非常的嚴重還有第二個問題也更讓我覺得這個其實有點違憲的問題就是雙方都是 兩方都是公務人員夫妻都是公務人員可是如果夫妻都退休了以後當有一方離世的時候另外一方居然連他一半的退休金都不能領要兩個公務人員處誰高啊所以我認為這個很明顯可能有處罰婚姻的一個狀況"},{"start":1117.293,"end":1134.112,"text":"就是如果我的對象是公務人員的話不是公務人員可以領一半可是如果是公務人員的話他只能兩個的退休金取高的其中之一這樣我覺得有懲罰婚姻的一個狀況而且大家就像我剛剛提到的其實現在他們的退休金"},{"start":1135.421,"end":1157.841,"text":"如果一方是公務人員另外一方是家管不是公務人員的就是全心全意照顧家裡的他原本領的退休金就非常少了而且像現在的這個勞退的機制底下他還要被砍一半所以他根本就已經沒有力氣來照顧他自己的家庭而且每年又砍越砍越多越領越少這是第一個剛剛提到第一個問題第二個問題是"},{"start":1159.542,"end":1182.351,"text":"夫妻都是公務人員結果一個一方離開了以後離世了以後結果另外一個公務人員留下來那一個居然連他另外一半都不能領所以這兩個部分我認為非常的不合理明明連領一半的機會都沒有了所以是不是請考試委員提名人所以這一部分您是不是也覺得現在這個有點不合理"},{"start":1184.447,"end":1210.399,"text":"這個委員剛剛提到的這兩個問題都是屬於復續制度的部分那他其實現在的任何規定他都有他立法的一個當時的一個原意我想我一樣進入將來有機會進入考試院服務委員關切的這兩個問題我們會協同退輔司、全序部那邊再來詳細研究"},{"start":1211.399,"end":1237.24,"text":"這個要拜託因為我相信這個我相信很多委員都很關心而且關心到我們所有大眾公務人員未來想要繼續捧這個鐵飯碗他的想法那最後還是非常感謝我們呂備提名人辛苦了那本席也在此感謝我們所有這個第一線服務的公職人員大家都辛苦了那未來我們一定會繼續捍衛大家的權益請大家不要擔心謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}