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謝謝委員關心那就是剛剛委員所提到的我們之前有立法院未來國會院警規劃諮詢委員會他的成員有21人召開了6次會議是啦 這就不用再給我拖時間了我就你就簡單跟他說你怎麼有編預算嘛預算也編了 你們編了多少本來去年編了多少好 這個部分709萬709嘛 有開的集嗎"},{"start":100.49,"end":129.574,"text":"還沒有一家人就沒開到還沒有那你不做事了報告委員這個部分是這樣啦容我再補充一下在113年5月的時候總務處有報請邀請了黨團協商組成國會貴賤規劃暨監督委員會那這個部分我們必須要等到議決以後然後配合預算709萬來辦理後續的規劃如果說沒有在113年執行去年編的709就是給今年用那現在已經12月份了嘛"},{"start":130.174,"end":132.079,"text":"那你們這個預算怎麼去辦保留?什麼到時候?都12月底了,什麼到時候?那就不可能辦保留了吧?"},{"start":141.835,"end":166.257,"text":"副編長答詢不能開玩笑你動作在這裡我是在跟你開槓這個是很嚴肅的事情啊去年編的預算今年用然後今年用你說可以講了很多理由朝野動盪不安為了整個議事你們這個幾乎心思花在這個地方所以整個擴建我們就全部都停擺了就算你停擺那你這個去年編的錢你今年就沒編了嘛"},{"start":169.238,"end":178.077,"text":"所以說嘛 從看你們花錢跟看你們有沒有編預算我就看得出來新任院長的心思嘛 不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":179.352,"end":186.856,"text":"你做一個負密你是負貿要賺而已嘛你沒辦法給我寫嘛就是說這件事情你們不把它當重要的事也沒有關係但是要講清楚怎麼你們連這個去你們自己都不編那去年編的你們一毛錢也都沒用然後你們錢也沒有去辦保留然後今年也不編明年的那所以你的解讀總歸一句話你認為在韓院長任內裡面有會有任何作為嗎"},{"start":208.644,"end":221.313,"text":"這個部分我是不是請總務處長來做一個補充他沒有辦法回答這個啦搞不好你也沒辦法回答啦我是說從你們沒有編預算還有別人編了預算你們一毛錢都沒花就可以知道你這個態度了嘛這個不要跟我講漂亮的話這個議題是朝野最高度共識的欸到底是你們怠惰"},{"start":230.916,"end":232.476,"text":"今天幾號?今天幾號你都不知道勒"},{"start":262.555,"end":272.783,"text":"這不能嬉皮笑臉啦我跟你講我就從第一個上來的答詢我就覺得奇怪你怎麼這樣的一個答詢的一個方式可能你沒有準備喔可能是要周秘書長來自己親自來來來備詢的但也不能這樣像這一種東西就是親著我親著叫一下也能回答什麼你給我回答這樣"},{"start":280.854,"end":280.914,"text":"我們積極辦理"},{"start":311.718,"end":313.661,"text":"對啦 要積極辦理積極辦理是四個字積極辦理 你們怎麼積極辦理法"},{"start":317.293,"end":334.938,"text":"市部的部分,廢後再跟總務處這邊來做商討不行啦,你們這樣不行啦一毛錢都沒有發,你說你要積極辦理你動作大家都中斤啦,這就不對啦立法院,我再另外一個重要的問題啦大家都希望是五指化啦,不要浪費這麼多的一個帳我給你看一下,三天分的那三天的,再過年一個啦你覺得你地下室你看過沒有?有多嗎?"},{"start":344.659,"end":357.818,"text":"有很多很可怕那確實是很可怕那這個議題我倒是這樣子認為我們立法院我們其實也在推這個五子化的一個會議但我相信大多數人也不太清楚你如果從立法院的內網裡面那個網站"},{"start":361.483,"end":361.503,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":385.287,"end":385.387,"text":"﹚莊瑞雄﹚"},{"start":406.892,"end":416.95,"text":"拜託你剛才說的 要積極辦理 這都是假話 這都是空話 立法院應該做的是說我怎麼樣去量化我一年我要減少多少值的使用量的一個百分比 然後呢"},{"start":417.881,"end":444.476,"text":"定期去做一個公佈說無紙化你推動的一個成效的一個數據啊逐步去強化我們整個線上系統的一個便利性跟使用度那我想呢這個最主要是說全球現在都是在推行節能檢探當下無紙化減少紙張啦不是那個不少紙化那個紙這個我相信立法院應該是積極來辦理的我不曉得你們的意見怎麼樣可以再加強嗎"},{"start":448.067,"end":460.998,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我想五指化這個趨勢是大家世界上共通的趨勢然後這部分可以分為兩個部分一個部分是電子公文的部分 一個部分是會議資料的部分這我就知道了 因為先跟你說 我現在跟你說你要怎麼積極辦理就像你剛講的積極辦理 你有簿嗎 我要求的時候你要去做一個量化"},{"start":470.277,"end":475.566,"text":"指標定期做一個公布你們有誰有沒有辦法來幫忙他副秘書長來回答這個問題我們請公報處長"},{"start":480.28,"end":480.32,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":510.82,"end":532.09,"text":"當年的用紙量大概是一萬五千令那到去年大概一百一十二年的統計已經降到四千令所以我們整個很具體的一個節省大概百分之七十三%的一個節省一年減七百一年差不多不知道一百七十三%"},{"start":536.932,"end":541.576,"text":"95年至112年總共減73%本來是15000人今年呢今年大概也會預估大概用了"},{"start":553.208,"end":580.105,"text":"目前113年到現在用1278令而已。減少的跟去年減少的幅度做比較呢?減少,因為到113年以後就穩定了啦,大概都是用4000令左右。所以我的意思就是說,我希望你們有一個具體的一個指標啦。那我會給你一個辦公室三天就這麼可怕。那那麼多的一個辦公室啊,有點可惜啦。你看那個程序委員會,對吧?"},{"start":582.342,"end":582.462,"text":"議員：莊瑞雄議員"},{"start":612.011,"end":614.999,"text":"差不多就好了我有請我辦公室去算中興大樓這樣"},{"start":620.233,"end":642.923,"text":"我告訴你 我要去算過 一天後一百三十八隻 最少我算一百二百隻 辦公室都出動 去數那個機車 數那個機車要幹什麼呢 就是說我們那個整個下去那個坡道 停在外面的機車不算喔 我說停在中心大樓底下的 那變成說我們地下的坡道是暗藏危機 要特別小心 就是說看"},{"start":643.763,"end":651.139,"text":"秘書長 副秘書長 還是找您總務處長您討論一下就是說那個地下停車場那個坡道可不可以改成比較防滑一點"},{"start":652.332,"end":652.712,"text":"最後一個問題"},{"start":676.816,"end":678.337,"text":"委員指的是哪一種顏色的嗎?因為他有分不同的顏色。"},{"start":697.148,"end":697.528,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":717.924,"end":736.638,"text":"一些門禁、考勤、交通支付甚至於都讓拿的人都會覺得說他是非常有一個便利性好好的再去想一下讓這些使用的人覺得很便利那也體現一下你們對員工的一個照顧嘛"},{"start":737.435,"end":737.555,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":755.04,"end":781.153,"text":"不然立法院所有的各局處都在處理議事工房沒有這種事嘛你們各個單位全部都是不同的嘛那這個沒有提升的話代表沒有在做事啊你不能說立法院都是沒人管的立法院都是可以管你們的怎麼會不能管我們是說早末每一個政黨早末在政治議題啊可是你立法院該去提升的這個部分跟其他的各個單位啊立法院是一個院欸"},{"start":782.914,"end":785.516,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒 這個部分我們會來做一個研究提升它的功能"},{"start":808.802,"end":819.772,"text":"這個有必要啦!不然現在真的是太陽春啦!院欸!我們這叫做院欸!不要開玩笑欸好不好!你那個立法院那個簽件跟擴建那件事情喔不要再推給各黨團好不好!你們錢沒有給人家用一毛錢然後沒有去辦保留然後"},{"start":827.739,"end":839.921,"text":"明年的今年沒有給他兵辦毛錢這代表叫做不是說你們以後要積極辦理這個叫做怠惰啦好不好謝謝委員我們會辦保留謝謝謝謝莊委員欸那個蜂蜜蜂蜜我想請教"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時26分）謝謝主席，有請立法院副秘書長，秘書長跑去哪？"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。秘書長身體不便，我們剛剛有宣示，他血氧降到很低。"],["莊委員瑞雄：問他比較好玩啦！沒關係。"],["主席：可是因為身體因素，我們一定是第一考量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒問題，當然，身體最重要。來，副秘書長，副秘書長是多大你知不知道？備詢準備成這樣不行啦！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：委員早，不敢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我來請教幾個問題，就我們立法院遷建或者擴建這樣的一個問題，我記得我們本來是26個地址選址，到最後變成6個。當然，現在的一個狀況，我看這整個會期這樣子，似乎朝野動盪不安，你們可能要花更多的心思在議事上，但是也快一年的時間，對於立法院的擴建委員會，或者尋找新的一個場域裡面，你們現在這個計畫有沒有在進行？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：好，謝謝委員關心，就是剛剛委員所提到的，我們之前有立法院未來國會願景規劃諮詢委員會，成員有21人，召開了6次會議。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，這有啦，這就不用再拖我的時間了。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你就簡單跟我說，你們有編預算嘛，預算也編了，你們編了多少？本來去年編了多少？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：這個部分是709萬。"],["莊委員瑞雄：709萬嘛。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有花到錢嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：還沒有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一毛錢都沒花到？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：還沒有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那就代表你們沒做事情啊！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：報告委員，這個部分是這樣，容我再補充一下，在113年5月的時候總務處有報請、邀集了黨團協商組成國會擴建規劃暨監督委員會，這個部分我們必須要等到議決以後，才能配合預算709萬來辦理後續的規劃，如果沒有在113年執行……"],["莊委員瑞雄：去年編了709萬就是給今年用嘛。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在已經12月份了，你們這個預算有沒有去辦保留？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對，到時候就會辦保留……"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼到時候！都12月底了，什麼到時候！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：因為現在還有一些事……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那就不可能辦保留了吧？副秘書長，答詢不能開玩笑，不能開玩笑！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你當我在這裡是在跟你聊天，這個是很嚴肅的事情。去年編的預算，今年用，然後今年用的你可以講很多理由──朝野動盪不安，為了整個議事，你們幾乎心思花在這個地方，所以整個擴建你們就全部都停擺了，就算你停擺，你去年編了錢，你今年就沒編了嘛，所以從看你們花錢跟看你們有沒有編預算，我就看得出來新任院長的心思，不是這樣子嗎？你做一個副秘，你是副幕僚長而已，你沒辦法解決什麼，這件事情你們不把它當成重要的事也沒有關係，但是要講清楚，怎麼連這個你們自己都不編？去年編的你們一毛錢也都沒用，然後你們錢也沒有去辦保留，今年也不編明年的，所以你的解讀總歸一句話，你認為在韓院長任內會有任何作為嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：這個部分我是不是請總務處長來做一個補充？"],["莊委員瑞雄：他沒有辦法回答這個啦，搞不好你也沒辦法回答，我從你們沒有編預算，還有別人編了預算你們一毛錢都沒花，就可以知道你的態度了，不要跟我講漂亮的話，這個議題是朝野最高度共識的，到底是你們怠惰，還是你們……"],["張副秘書長裕榮：程序上黨團協商會有共識……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不要推給黨團協商，這不要推給黨團協商，這是立法院最有高度共識的，你不要推給立法院的各黨，你們就沒有積極的作為啊！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：如果這一個年度沒有使用到這個經費的話，我們會辦保留。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們會辦保留？今天幾號？你今天來備詢連今天幾號你都不知道了，這不能嬉皮笑臉啦，我跟你講，我從你第一個上來的答詢，我就覺得奇怪……"],["張副秘書長裕榮：12月4號。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你怎麼會是這樣的一個答詢方式，可能你沒有準備好，可能是要周秘書長自己親自來備詢，但也不能這樣，像這種東西我隨便叫一個起來也可以回答，怎麼你回答成這樣？你就說：「好，我們後面會來積極辦理」，替你們韓院長說個好話也好，但你不是耶！你是去年的錢一毛錢都沒花，然後明年的、今年該編的錢，一毛錢都沒編耶！我從這兩點就可以看得出來你們對這個議題是玩假的，玩假的也沒關係，你們就是認為這個對立法院來講不是最重大的事，但只要有一個好答案我也沒意見，這樣不行啦，好不好？你今天答詢的態度代表韓院長喔！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我們積極辦理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對啦，要積極辦理！積極辦理是4個字，「積極辦理」你們怎麼個積極辦理法？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：細部的部分會後再跟總務處這邊來做商討，然後再請教委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不行啦！你們這樣不行啦！一毛錢都沒有花，你說你要積極辦理，你以為大家都「囡仔」，這就不對了。","立法院我另外一個重要的問題，大家都希望無紙化，不要浪費那麼多的紙，我給你看一下3天份的，這是3天份的，我個人的啦，地下室你看有過嗎？有沒有很多？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：有，很多。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很可怕喔！確實是很可怕，這個議題我倒是這樣子認為，我們立法院其實也在推無紙化的會議，但我相信大多數人也不太清楚，你如果從立法院的內網，那個網站入口進去以後會有一個無紙化的會議系統，點進去以後常常會卡住，你想要去找會議的參考資料其實還是很分散。當然，我們在審法案也好，預算也好，尤其是法案，常常會有一些對照表，不可能說完全都沒有紙張，但是我們立法院身為最高民意機關，我們也必須要去做一個社會的典範，立法院是不是應該更加強來推動電子化的公文系統，減少不必要的紙張？怎麼樣去避免浪費，本席認為這個很重要，尤其我也認為立法院應該建置一些量化的指標，譬如不要像你剛才說的「積極辦理」，這都是假話、空話，立法院該做的是要怎麼樣去量化，一年要減少多少紙使用量的百分比，然後定期去公布無紙化推動成效的數據，逐步去強化我們整個線上系統的便利性跟使用度，我想這個最主要是全球現在都是在推行節能減碳的當下，無紙化是減少紙張啦，不是少子化的那個「子」。這個我相信立法院應該是要積極來辦理的，我不曉得你們的意見怎麼樣？可以再加強嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是，謝謝委員，我想無紙化這個趨勢是世界上共通的趨勢，這可以分為兩個部分，一個部分是電子公文的部分，一個部分是會議資料的部分，電子公文的部分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我都知道，我已經先跟你說了，我現在是問你說你們要怎麼積極辦理，就像你剛剛講的「積極辦理」，你們有方法嗎？我要求的是你要去做一個量化，那個指標要定期去做公布，你們誰有辦法來幫忙副秘書長回答這個問題？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：好，我們請公報處長來。"],["蘇處長顯星：跟委員報告，目前我們印刷所用紙的部分在每一屆委員上任的時候都會用一個書面調查，希望他們提供我們需要紙本，或者是需要電子公文，我們會經由這樣的調查來統計需要印的印量。以我們目前的統計資料來講，95年當年的用紙量大概是1萬5,000令，到112年的統計，已經降到4,000令，所以我們整個很具體的節省大概73%紙的用量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一年減1%？"],["蘇處長顯星：一年差不多……不只1%。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你剛剛說7%？"],["蘇處長顯星：73%。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一年減73%？"],["蘇處長顯星：95年到112年總共減73%，本來是1萬5,000令……"],["莊委員瑞雄：今年呢？"],["蘇處長顯星：今年預估大概用了……目前113年到現在用三千多令而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：跟去年減少的幅度做比較呢？"],["蘇處長顯星：因為到113年以後就穩定了，大概都是用4,000令左右。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我的意思就是說，我希望你們有具體的一個指標，一個辦公室3天就那麼可怕，那麼多的辦公室，有點可惜啦！你看程序委員會，大家去都在舉手而已，沒有人在翻，但不備又不行，能夠電子化的盡量電子化啦！好不好？"],["蘇處長顯星：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外，我要來幫我們立法院那麼多的助理來談一個問題，我們在立法院工程的問題，浪不浪費這個就是你們自己要好好去做檢討，但是工程方面我不曉得你們有沒有注意到，立法院一天差不多有多少台助理的機車在停，你們知道嗎？有人知道這個問題嗎？差不多就好了，我有請我辦公室去中興大樓算，我跟你說，我曾經去算過，一天有138臺，最少有102臺，辦公室都出動去數機車，數機車要幹什麼？就是說我們下去那個坡道，停在外面的機車不算，我說停在中興大樓底下的，變成說我們地下的坡道是暗藏危機，要特別小心。副秘書長，還是找總務處長，你們討論一下，地下停車場那個坡道可不可以改成比較防滑一點，不然讓那些助理大家尤其在下雨天會提心吊膽，這也不好。立委的沒問題，大家有車，我也很少看到立委騎機車到立法院來，但是助理很多都騎機車，一百多部，放在外面的不算，下去那個地方，我相信你們也收到反映，錢該花在刀口上的還是要去花，好不好？","最後一個問題，我要就教的就是你們都有出入識別卡，出入的這個識別卡，到底那一張的功能有多少種？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：委員指的是哪一種顏色的嗎？因為它有分不同的顏色。"],["莊委員瑞雄：出入證，你的出入證，我問它的功能啦！你知道它有什麼功能嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：就是識別嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：只有識別？那樣不行啦！你看你第一個想的就是識別。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：另外還有就是使用電腦的時候，我們會插卡。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那個都不夠啦！我跟你說，那個都不夠，功能都太過於陽春了，你去看看各縣市政府，它那個識別卡，就是那個出入證，幾乎都有一些門禁、考勤、交通支付，甚至於讓拿的人都會覺得說它是非常有便利性，好好的再去想一下，讓這些使用的人覺得很便利，也體現一下你們對員工的照顧嘛！好不好？比如說，目前最大宗的整合悠遊卡的功能，可以去實現無現金的支付，大幅去提高使用效能。我去福利社也看過那邊有一臺，使用度到底多高不知道，但是這個看得到的問題，沒有所有立法院各局處都在處理議事攻防，沒有這種事嘛！你們各個單位全部都是不同的，這個沒有提升的話代表沒有在做事啊！你不能說立法院都是沒人管的，立法委員都是可以管你們的，怎麼會不能管？只是每一個政黨比較著墨在政治議題，可是立法院該去提升的這個部分跟其他各個單位……立法院耶！是一個院耶！跟地方政府……只有一個出入證、一個識別卡，你們的功能那麼陽春，代表這實在是……就發揮一點創意，然後大家多積極一點，不會的話很簡單啊！問各縣市政府看他們怎麼做的，可以嗎？副秘書長簡單回答一下。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：可以，謝謝委員的提醒，這個部分我們會後來做研究，提升它的功能。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個有必要啦！不然現在真的是太陽春啦！院耶！我們叫做院耶！不要開玩笑，好不好？","立法院遷建跟擴建那件事情，不要再推給各黨團，好不好？你們沒有給人家用一毛錢，沒有去辦保留，然後明年的今年沒有給它編半毛錢，這代表你們以後不是要積極辦理，這個叫做怠惰啦！好不好？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：謝謝委員，我們會辦保留。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","副秘，不好意思，我想請教，因為我注意到立委下那個地下通道的時候，會有一個車牌辨識系統，但是同仁下去的時候，機車沒有辦法辨識，可不可以多裝一個？不然我看每一次駐衛警都把他們攔下來，然後還要再找證件，駐衛警有時候還要從管理室跑出來，是不是多裝一個機車的辨識系統？反正是同一套系統嘛！可不可以多裝一個？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：如果技術上面沒有問題的話，我們來研究後續也把這個納入。"],["主席：我想原本的管理系統應該軟體的部分是一樣，就是多一個感應機車車牌的，謝謝。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","林思銘","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","葉元之","吳思瑤","謝龍介"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11311101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}