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09:52:38","會議時間":"2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算。三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案。四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進會114年度預算書案。【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.0772187500000001,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.46096875,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.30034375,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.476593750000003,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.73284375,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.14596875,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.95096875,"end":39.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.78471875,"end":38.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.50596875,"end":38.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.72534375,"end":38.759093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.822218750000005,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.97471875000001,"end":91.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.40471875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.82596875,"end":98.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.44596875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.56784375000001,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.33971875,"end":105.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.22534375000001,"end":108.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.63409375,"end":114.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.44346875000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.18971875000001,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.24034375000001,"end":118.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.43409375,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.59721875,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.66034375,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.67721875,"end":130.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.80784375000002,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.39846875,"end":132.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.43221875,"end":134.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.53721875000002,"end":141.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.89909375000002,"end":144.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.10534375,"end":147.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.73784375,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.88409375,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.99346875,"end":160.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.64721875,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.38534375,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.40596875,"end":166.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.75596875000002,"end":167.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.02159375000002,"end":172.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.99971875,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.73346875000001,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.53846875000002,"end":187.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.03534375,"end":189.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.75659375,"end":190.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.39346875,"end":198.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.61596875,"end":200.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.67471875,"end":202.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.90221875,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.93159375000002,"end":208.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.94346875000002,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.73596875,"end":215.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.82846875,"end":217.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.81971875000002,"end":218.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.52846875,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.49846875,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.06346875000003,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.44221875000002,"end":231.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.46721875,"end":235.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.84221875000003,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.28909375,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.51659375000003,"end":242.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.06471875000003,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.53284375,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.08846875,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.02909375000002,"end":258.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.48409375,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","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謝謝就中國的法令來講對中間有沒有很明確的確定這個非法集會有可能是被判徒刑的吧"},{"start":269.295,"end":270.877,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":278.288,"end":279.91,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":301.532,"end":310.587,"text":"這個是中國的他本身的法律規定對啊我為什麼會特別請教這個一貫道在台灣大概有200萬的道卿"},{"start":311.843,"end":331.45,"text":"那如果中國要對一貫道出手,可能入海關、道青有金書有什麼的話,可能就會被盤查。這個我覺得可能要像我們台灣一貫道的道青要多一點宣傳,不然很多都是有上年紀的人,他們根本不知道。"},{"start":332.31,"end":334.992,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":358.574,"end":359.577,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":365.053,"end":390.912,"text":"我想委員在講那個不不你回答我是不是啊就好了我想我們當然是中華民國啊對啊對所以我要說這次這個某個基金會然後有很多中國的學生來啊你有沒有覺得他們的言論有超過了學生的參訪的條件講到了很多政治的層面呢"},{"start":391.252,"end":414.082,"text":"是,跟委員報告,這次馬英九基金會的陸生團到臺灣來,也包括有陸團的這些代表講了中國臺北,我想這個傷害了臺灣人民情感,那麼這些矮化臺灣的言論也被大家所無法接受。"},{"start":415.483,"end":420.427,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":440.022,"end":442.564,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":469.522,"end":471.542,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":498.288,"end":499.91,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2016,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時44分）請邱主委跟羅文嘉副董事長。"],["主席：請邱主委、羅副董事長。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：好，我想請問一下，我們現在跟中國的關係是不讀不回，還是已讀不回，還是偶而看心情回？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們現在跟中國大陸的溝通聯繫，是依照過去已經有的溝通聯繫機制，大概分三個部分。"],["張委員宏陸：簡單說就好。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，當然在陸委會跟國台辦、海基會跟海協會，我在海基會任職經驗，去年我們給對岸3,179封信，他已讀不回但有處理，那陸委會基於避免誤解、誤判，我們認為有價值的資訊還是會提供給他們參考。此外兩岸目前正在落實兩岸協議有26項，工作層級都有在互動，進一步的互動是沒有，但是現在兩岸的大方向還是依照兩岸協議。"],["張委員宏陸：好。"],["邱主任委員垂正：另外就是兩岸之間有許多智庫、民間、臺商也會傳遞有益的資料，避免兩岸誤解、誤判。"],["張委員宏陸：好、好、好，其實我簡單的請教而已，我為什麼要問這個問題？主委跟副董事長，10月份在中國廣東有臺灣的人被扣押，是因為宗教、一貫道，我不知道我們有沒有接收到這個訊息？這個也可以請羅副董事長回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我想有一些國人跟海基會就宗教、一貫道的部分去陳情，我請海基會來說明。"],["張委員宏陸：好。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：向委員做回應，在今年10月上旬，如果正確日期我所知道應該差不多在10月10日前後，在中國中山地區的一處民宅，中國的公安突然進去逮捕裡頭的一些人，多少人員詳細數字我不知道，但是其中有3位是來自於臺灣一貫道的道親，他們大概的年紀都有七十幾歲，都年紀蠻大，他們是前往陪同當地人讀一貫道的經書。我們是在10月下旬才知道這個事情，是因為家屬來向海基會陳情，希望海基會能提供協助，如同剛剛講，我們隨即也立即傳真給對岸的海協會，就這三個人的狀況詳敘並希望他們能夠協助支援，但是並沒有得到回復。隨即我們也透過過去簽訂的海峽兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議，會同我們的主管機關法務部及警政署，透過他們的管道跟窗口去瞭解這個案例，但是對岸一直也沒有具體的回應。之後我們也透過其他海基會能運用的管道，來探尋這三位道親到底現況如何？這個資訊相較以往有類似的案子，非常不透明，所以我們能夠提供給大院的詳細內容也有限，我們多次跟這三位的家屬在海基會有過非常深入的討論，如何能夠瞭解更多他們資訊及提供協助，目前做到的是提供大陸的律師協助他們，以上是我們掌握的資料，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：就中國的法令來講，對宗教沒有很明確的確定，這個非法集會有可能是被判徒刑的吧？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我想請教，會不會有可能被判刑？有沒有這個可能？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：在中國的刑法第三百條規定「組織和利用會道門、邪教組織或者利用迷信破壞國家法律、行政法規實施的」，會是什麼會，各種會，這個罪最重可以判到無期徒刑，最輕也可以單處罰金，範圍非常大，這是中國本身的法律規定。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，我為什麼會特別請教這個？一貫道在臺灣大概有200萬的道親，如果中國要對一貫道出手，可能在入海關時，道親有經書或有什麼的話就可能就會被盤查，我覺得要向臺灣一貫道的道親多一點宣傳，不然很多都是有上年紀的人，他們根本不知道，如果去中國旅遊時，因為他每天要念經書就帶一本，在機場可能就被抓起來了，這個是我擔心的，那三個人當然也要儘量去幫忙，我覺得就是這樣。","我再請教一下邱主委，我們是中華民國，賴總統去到夏威夷是中華民國臺灣，對不對？他的獻花是中華民國臺灣總統，對不對？我們不是中國臺北吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想委員在講那個……"],["張委員宏陸：你回答我是不是就好了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們當然是中華民國啊，但是……"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，所以我要說，這次某個基金會有很多中國的學生來，你有沒有覺得他們的言論超過了學生參訪的條件，講到很多政治的層面了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，跟委員報告，這次馬英九基金會的陸生團到臺灣來，也包括陸團的代表講了中國臺北，我想傷害了臺灣人民情感，這些矮化臺灣的言論也被大家所無法接受，這個已經涉及違反大陸人士來臺許可辦法。同時，馬英九基金會跟主管機關有一個聲明的內容，它也沒有確實來遵守，這個部分等他們回去之後，我們會邀集相關的主管機關就行政程序以我們蒐集到的事實來做進一步的處分，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得除了這個之外還有一些羞辱性的言論，這個我們就不再提了，可是一群學生來，也不是每個學生都這樣，我們必須也要對學生有所尊重，不是每個學生都這樣。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：但有沒有違反中華民國的法令，我倒覺得不管它是不是誰的基金會，該怎麼辦就怎麼辦。"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我們一視同仁。"],["張委員宏陸：我不認為這是一視同仁的問題而已，這是國格的問題！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們依規定處理。"],["張委員宏陸：涉及一個國家的國格跟國家的尊嚴，如果連在臺灣發生，我們都沒有辦法處理的話，國際上怎麼看？未來大家怎麼做？這一點我特別要問就是這一個。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們會很慎重看待這個問題加以做行政處分。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-13","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","王美惠","李柏毅","張智倫","黃捷","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","黃建賓","賴士葆","吳琪銘","丁學忠","王義川","葉元之","黃國昌","羅智強","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算；三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法\n人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案；四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進\n會114年度預算書案【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】","agenda_id":"11311101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}