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剛剛問過了齁 那麼"},{"start":224.076,"end":233.523,"text":"法治局他是根據什麼?議事處是負責什麼?議事的事項對不對?法治局是法治的諮詢你確定嗎?好來往下看"},{"start":234.397,"end":262.357,"text":"那往下看所以我們在發生了所謂的要成立院會要成立國發基金調查委員會他在11月20號院會決議要成立到他的委員會11月27號名單送議事處那12月2號我們提示開會選召委那時候呢你認為院會我先問你院會的決議可不可以抵觸法律可不可以違背法律不行不行很好往下看"},{"start":263.337,"end":276.699,"text":"來我們看一下這是院會的決議11月22號他有幾個重點他規定了調查會的組成按照各黨團的席次比例推派對不對一席次比例分布多少席61761是不是這樣子然後推派是誰推派黨團推派嘛那誰會整"},{"start":293.562,"end":313.105,"text":"議事處會診 會診有沒有審查或否準的權利 沒有 他只是會診 然後呢 院會匯報 什麼叫院會匯報 匯報給大會知道嘛 各黨能送來的名單嘛 院會有否準的權利嗎 有沒有 有沒有否準的權利 大聲點 有沒有"},{"start":314.542,"end":340.047,"text":"沒有基本上是沒有沒有好那麼他這裡面規定了黨團來推派比例如何而且規定了名單要跟院會報告第一次會議什麼時間決定了對不對決定了時間對不對就是12月2號然後呢是由國民黨黨團來推派臨時主席對不對臨時主席要做什麼事情要決定召集人對不對召集人幾位幾位"},{"start":343.89,"end":367.737,"text":"議員寫在哪裡立法院職權刑事法第46條調查委員會設召集委員一名對不對是嗎好然後呢這個調查委員會要不要運作要不要運作要點要你們要協助人跟他打聲一點時間很寶貴該誰跟我們副部長提示就提示好那我先問你一下根據立法院各委員會組織法第4條4-1條委員會的議程是由召委來決定"},{"start":373.328,"end":402.167,"text":"那麼報告調查委員會調查委員會的議程是不是由調查委員會的召委來決定那根據我們過去的慣例調查委員會成立之後召委產生之後是不是調查委員會的議程由該委員會的召委決定是嗎 是不是好 那請問一下安排議程是召委的法定職權院會可以決議委員會第一次12月2號議決的內容要他們去處理運作要點嗎"},{"start":406.247,"end":407.894,"text":"委員會中心主義基本上是委員會主義"},{"start":410.506,"end":437.713,"text":"好接下來第二個問題既然院會要求要成立決議要成立一個調查委員會也決定調查委員會的組成也要告訴他時間名單等等等還包括說要推選出召委推選那個召委之前的臨時主席是由國民黨來推派都訂了很清楚了而且呢這個委員會的運作的時候呢要一個要運作要點好那現在我請問一下你看了有沒有看到上上星期"},{"start":439.283,"end":445.767,"text":"十二強國際棒球十二強的決賽有嗎 對不對台灣的先發投手是誰林玉明林玉明很好林玉明是原來大會先發的名單當中的嗎不是中華隊台灣更換了嘛 對不對更換了依規定可以更換嗎"},{"start":467.622,"end":490.396,"text":"他會受到處罰要罰款嘛那我們台灣就決定更換那大會可以強制不更換或強制要更換嗎不行很好所以今天我們院會的決定這個調查委員會的推派各黨人推派代表之後院會也匯報給院會知道之後第一次名單先發名單出來了先發名單出來之後民進黨團可不可以更換可不可以根據立法院執行法第45條之一事實情況改派可不可以"},{"start":499.847,"end":504.354,"text":"可不可以來 署長可不可以可不可以改派名單簽發名單出來了可不可以改派"},{"start":508.787,"end":536.048,"text":"這個涉及到說我們當初第一次院會的決議剛剛對啊決議啊決議說要送名單啊名單送了沒那名單如果不送的話就是預算了送了沒已經送了送了送完之後可不可以改院會已經被查過了被查過了可不可以改被查過之後呢這個被查的名單就用來開第一次會好開了第一次會第一次會開始開了嘛第一次會開的時候呢有黨團要求要改派那可不可以改那但是改派的話呢巡曆還是要再報告院會什麼叫巡曆來我們來看下一個例子來往下一看"},{"start":537.99,"end":559.091,"text":"當時啊我們說這個是要議事處是匯報院會報告往下一頁國民黨說啊說必須正式新聞被查方法變更有這樣的規定嗎我們現在看陳柏惟當年陳委員解職後我們黨的新聞議事處改派蔡世應院會被查什麼時候生效"},{"start":563.117,"end":565.178,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":592.383,"end":621.158,"text":"明期出席來請問一下我們國發會的這個設置要點立法主管機關要聘請各黨團推薦的學者專家臨聘之這個基金會啊他是根據一個管理條例設置管理條例來依法臨聘之那這個臨聘的這些學者專家是由各黨團推薦好啦那現在呢要調查的時候這些學者專家有沒有出席的義務"},{"start":623.203,"end":638.113,"text":"立法院只願新是吧?有沒有?基本上是臨聘啦那臨聘了以後他應該就有出席義務阿那他是對基金會的出席義務阿現在是調查委員會要請他來阿調查委員會要根據哪一條請他來往下看"},{"start":642.708,"end":663.898,"text":"我們來看一下齁 我們的修正動議的內容啊 是說什麼必案有無護航犯水 刑事不法 檢調真怕違法失職 監察院糾舉彈劾彈劾糾舉 如果是行使憲法職權的特定議案的重大關聯是立法院調查 那麼現在調查必案是立法院的職權嗎是不是法制局局長 調查必案是誰的職權"},{"start":674.721,"end":695.791,"text":"有關那個調查委員會他必須針對特定議案那特定案所衍生的相關事項就由這個調查委員來做人那請問一下那目前這調查委員會他可以調查的人在我們立執法的規範當中第46條以及46條之一之二"},{"start":700.051,"end":704.815,"text":"之三還有第59條聽證權的內容46條之二跟47條第二項和我們50條之一之三之四之五有沒有一樣"},{"start":717.974,"end":740.806,"text":"規範的內容有沒有一樣為你所謂的規範的內容調查提要求人員來進行聽證或詢問我們的調查權的行使是在第8章第45條之後他這整張都都都在規範掉那他跟我們聽證權的三章59條之一到之五的內容第9章之一第9章之一對不對59條嗎對對對有沒有一樣"},{"start":743.837,"end":744.839,"text":"有些一樣有些不一樣"},{"start":748.069,"end":775.849,"text":"我們歷史法往下一頁歷史法修改之後我們看到我們歷史法59條之五的第一項拒絕證言的事由涉及國安及國安外交法律明定之個人隱私或公私的秘密請問59條之五的內容這些拒絕證言的事由我們在調查委員會裡面46條之一46條之二以及我們所說的47條第二項有沒有一致"},{"start":777.776,"end":807.082,"text":"有沒有一致我直接告訴你喔47條的第2項沒有所謂的涉及國安國安外交啦也沒有法定明定的個人隱私跟其他秘密啦所以同樣的一個調查委員會當他辦聽證會的時候或者他進行調查的時候被詢問或調查的人他的拒絕證言的室友就不一樣了國民黨院會的決議漏了國安跟隱私或營業秘密當事人可不可以主張"},{"start":808.19,"end":823.025,"text":"議員會的決議只有寫哦﹚詢問的內容不得逾越調查目的事項範圍﹚並於詢問前告知有拒絕證言之權利及事由﹚拒絕證言之事由準用行政訴訟法的相關規定那麼有沒有包括59條之五的內容有沒有包括這樣決議的內容我們有沒有說排除59條之五的適用"},{"start":832.469,"end":841.68,"text":"跟委員報告,第50條之五在大法官宪判是第9號的解釋指向,第50條之五指第一項"},{"start":843.683,"end":862.377,"text":"沒有違憲。第二項、第三項、第四項、第五項、第六項、第七項都被大法官宣布。所以這第一項的內容很重要對不對?他的第一項的內容就是說出席人員有下列情形之一者的拒絕證言或表達意見。區長我的設計是說11月22的決議內文有沒有排除59條之五第一項的適用?"},{"start":868.842,"end":884.406,"text":"這個要由調查委員會的委員來他們做 欸剛剛副秘長你不是說了嗎我們立法院的院會的決定都不可以抵觸法律違背法律了難道調查委員會可以排除59條之五的第一項的適用嗎可以說我們不適用59條之五第一項 可以這樣嗎"},{"start":895.586,"end":916.072,"text":"第59條之五的第一項 宪判是第九號 他是沒有宣布違憲要適用啊 就要適用啊第59條之五的第一項的內容對於當事人被要求去詢問的當事人的權利保障比47條"},{"start":919.406,"end":947.663,"text":"出席人員有下列之一的拒絕陣營或表達意見他可以拒絕陣營他也可以表達意見啊應該要適用嘛適用啊很好那就對了問了半天來最後我要結束主席站下一項好最後呢這個跟我們預算執行啊我們目前副院長你知道我們立法院的會議是有一些空氣品質指標啊這個會議是有沒有應該有啊沒有啊沒有空氣品質指標啊"},{"start":949.418,"end":969.465,"text":"指標的部分那個部分會議是公報處的部分公報處有沒有有沒有空氣品質指標總務處是哪一個處管的你都搞不清楚哪裡有空有沒有2011就有啦2011的交通委員會就有啦教育委員會紅樓伊尼也有啦那為什麼這裡沒有"},{"start":970.393,"end":998.898,"text":"是不是要有?空氣品質指標要不要有?每個會議室都裝潮好不好?可以承諾嗎?好,空氣品質很重要。噪音污染要不要研究一下?那也要求比照空氣品質指標,把每個會議室的噪音啊,的指標也放進去。因為我們會議室啊,這個職場啊,霸凌呢,空氣不好,噪音過潮,都會妨害我們的意識。承諾每個會議室都安裝兩個,空氣品質跟噪音,可以嗎?"},{"start":1000.938,"end":1001.719,"text":"主席可以做出這樣的決定嗎?"},{"start":1034.228,"end":1057.968,"text":"我們希望調查委員會根據我們的立職法應該就要遵照立職法的規定而且請責成法治局立職法通過之後前後條文相關需要整合的配套規章要求一併提出一個研究報告這個跟委員報告我們在憲判是第9號之後我們有做一個那個"},{"start":1059.462,"end":1084.814,"text":"因備齊的配套規章有沒有準備了?配套規章準備了沒?我們是有把它整理啦,把它整理後我們事後再提供給委員會跟委員辦公室可不可以?副秘書長,責任法治局一個月內把相關的配套規章因備齊的條文應該補齊的,我們國會要趕快迅速推動內規我是問副秘書長啦,一個月內可以嗎?"},{"start":1089.295,"end":1089.817,"text":"黃國昌委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:36.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:41:40.813000+08:00","text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:42.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:41:44.057000+08:00","text":"主席，我可不可先請副秘書長？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:44.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:41:50.824000+08:00","text":"但是我要先了解他哪些部分可以取代秘書長，再請其他可以幫忙的人上臺，可以嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:50.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:41:51.885000+08:00","text":"先請副秘書長，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:52.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:41:53.206000+08:00","text":"好，麻煩副秘書長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:53.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:41:56.530000+08:00","text":"我先來問一下，我再決定要請誰來協助他，因為……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:58.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:41:59.659000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是說時間先不要跑？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:41:59.659000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:00.659000+08:00","text":"對，先不要動。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:00.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:01.920000+08:00","text":"好，那我們時間先不要動。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:01.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:12.927000+08:00","text":"副秘書長，抱歉，如果今天是秘書長的話，我就可以很放心，我必須詢問一下你對於法規的嫻熟，才決定邀請哪些主管來協助你，好嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:12.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:15.328000+08:00","text":"你對中華民國憲法熟悉嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:15.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:15.468000+08:00","text":"熟讀啦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:16.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:16.729000+08:00","text":"基本上熟悉。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:16.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:18.470000+08:00","text":"好，增修條文熟讀吧？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:20.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:21.672000+08:00","text":"立法院組織法熟悉吧？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:22.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:24.153000+08:00","text":"有閱讀過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:24.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:26.215000+08:00","text":"立法院職權行使法如果不了解的話，你會問誰？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:27.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:31.300000+08:00","text":"法制局還是議事處？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:31.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:32.300000+08:00","text":"兩位可能都會問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:31.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:35.061000+08:00","text":"議事規則不熟悉，你會問誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:35.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:36.081000+08:00","text":"議事處。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:36.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:37.061000+08:00","text":"議事處，好，議事規則你熟嘛？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:39.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:40.122000+08:00","text":"目前在熟悉當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:41.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:42.123000+08:00","text":"好，職權行使法剛修過，你熟嘛？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:43.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:45.844000+08:00","text":"因為修了很多，我熟悉的是比較舊的，不過沒關係……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:46.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:48.304000+08:00","text":"新的你要適應？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:48.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:50.545000+08:00","text":"立法院各委員會組織法你熟嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:50.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:51.545000+08:00","text":"有涉獵過一部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:51.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:52.545000+08:00","text":"如果不了解你會問誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:52.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:53.545000+08:00","text":"問議事處嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:53.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:54.545000+08:00","text":"應該會問法制局。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:54.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:55.545000+08:00","text":"好，那我們就請議事處跟法制局分別上來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:55.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:56.545000+08:00","text":"麻煩議事處、法制局。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:56.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:57.545000+08:00","text":"好，那我這樣可以開始問了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:42:52.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:42:54.634000+08:00","text":"副秘書長，請教一下，你認為立法院存在的目的，這個組織存在的目的，根據組織法第二條目的是什麼？","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:19.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:23.404000+08:00","text":"是不是要協助立法委員來問政、行使憲法的職權，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:23.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:27.587000+08:00","text":"你不用看法條，我就告訴你了，立法院組織法，立法委員行使職權嘛！是。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:28.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:30.069000+08:00","text":"立法委員就來開會嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:32.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:39.675000+08:00","text":"立法院組織法存在就是要讓我們立法委員來開會，你認為民主國家的軍隊可以阻止國會議員到立法院開會嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:39.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:41.016000+08:00","text":"到國會開會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:41.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:41.296000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:41.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:42.116000+08:00","text":"基本上不行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:42.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:50.576000+08:00","text":"不行，好，我們憲法規定中華民國總統可不可以宣布戒嚴？可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:51.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:52.818000+08:00","text":"但是要怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:52.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:54.699000+08:00","text":"是不是要經過立法院的通過或追認？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:55.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:56.861000+08:00","text":"沒有通過或追認有沒有效？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:58.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:43:58.322000+08:00","text":"基本上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:43:59.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:01.304000+08:00","text":"憲法第三十九條你熟讀嘛！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:02.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:02.985000+08:00","text":"對不對？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:04.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:04.466000+08:00","text":"增修條文認為，總統在戒嚴的時候可以解散國會嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:04.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:04.586000+08:00","text":"不可以嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:04.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:06.267000+08:00","text":"這直接回答，顯然你不太熟喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:06.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:07.768000+08:00","text":"不可以，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:18.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:28.457000+08:00","text":"所以如果在臺灣，根據中華民國憲法跟增修條文，總統要宣布戒嚴要經過國會同意，而且在這段時間不能解散國會，要維持國會的運作，是不是這樣？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:28.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:33.001000+08:00","text":"那戒嚴法第一條，什麼時候我們可以宣布戒嚴？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:33.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:34.623000+08:00","text":"要有戰爭或叛亂發生嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:34.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:36.484000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:36.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:38.986000+08:00","text":"而且在一個月內要提交立法院追認嘛！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:39.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:39.867000+08:00","text":"是不是？是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:40.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:43.550000+08:00","text":"所以我們昨天看到一個情況，你認為在臺灣可不可能發生？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:43.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:44.550000+08:00","text":"基本上所有憲法設計的都有可能發生。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:44.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:45.550000+08:00","text":"不是，你認為在臺灣可能發生？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:45.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:46.550000+08:00","text":"我們臺灣的法律，憲法規定跟韓國不一樣，你覺得昨天韓國的這個事情有沒有可能在臺灣發生？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:46.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:47.550000+08:00","text":"我認為不太可能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:47.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:48.550000+08:00","text":"不太可能，很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:44:46.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:44:48.695000+08:00","text":"那我現在問的就是我們審預算的事情，議事處及法制局分別的職掌，剛剛問過了。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:15.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:45:16.619000+08:00","text":"議事處是負責什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:16.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:45:18.300000+08:00","text":"議事事項，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:18.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:45:21.742000+08:00","text":"法制局是法制諮詢事項，你確認嘛！好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:25.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:45:39.468000+08:00","text":"我們院會在11月22日決議要成立國發基金調查委員會，名單於11月27日前送議事處，12月2日我們第一次開會選召委。","quality":0.698},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:42.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:45:46.694000+08:00","text":"我問你，院會的決議可不可以牴觸法律？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:47.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:45:49.916000+08:00","text":"可不可以違背法律？不行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:50.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:45:50.856000+08:00","text":"不行，很好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:45:52.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:04.479000+08:00","text":"我們看一下，這是院會的決議、11月22日，它有幾個重點，規定了調查委員會之組成，按照各黨團的席次比例推派，依席次比例分布，多少席？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:04.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:04.759000+08:00","text":"7、6、1，是不是這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:04.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:05.239000+08:00","text":"然後是誰推派？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:05.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:05.319000+08:00","text":"黨團推派。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:05.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:05.679000+08:00","text":"那誰彙整？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:22.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:23.964000+08:00","text":"議事處彙整。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:23.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:25.946000+08:00","text":"彙整有沒有審查或否准的權利？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:26.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:27.608000+08:00","text":"沒有，它只是彙整。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:28.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:32.454000+08:00","text":"然後什麼叫院會彙報？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:32.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:32.994000+08:00","text":"彙報給大會知道嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:33.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:37.760000+08:00","text":"各黨團送來的名單，院會有否准的權利嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:37.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:40.043000+08:00","text":"有沒有否准的權利？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:41.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:43.722000+08:00","text":"大聲點，有沒有？沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:44.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:45.082000+08:00","text":"基本上是沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:45.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:45.623000+08:00","text":"沒有，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:46.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:56.805000+08:00","text":"這裡面規定了黨團推派、比例如何，而且規定了名單要跟院會報告，第一次會議是什麼時間決定了，對不對？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:56.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:46:58.625000+08:00","text":"決定了時間，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:46:58.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:04.407000+08:00","text":"就是12月2日，是由國民黨黨團推派臨時主席，對不對？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:04.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:05.167000+08:00","text":"臨時主席要做什麼事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:06.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:08.407000+08:00","text":"要決定召集人，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:08.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:09.027000+08:00","text":"召集人幾位？幾位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:12.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:14.271000+08:00","text":"1位，寫在哪裡？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:14.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:20.452000+08:00","text":"立法院職權行使法第四十六條，調查委員會設召集委員一名，是嘛！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:21.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:23.453000+08:00","text":"好，然後這個調查委員會要不要運作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:25.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:27.375000+08:00","text":"要不要有運作要點？要。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:27.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:45.990000+08:00","text":"你們要協助人，大聲一點，時間很寶貴，該誰跟我們副秘書長提出提示……好，那我先問你一下，根據立法院各委員會組織法第四條之一條，委員會之議程，是由召委決定，那麼包不包括調查委員會？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:45.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:48.012000+08:00","text":"調查委員會的議程是不是由調查委員會的召委決定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:49.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:58.599000+08:00","text":"根據我們過去的慣例，調查委員會成立，召委產生之後，是不是調查委員會的議程由該委員會的召委決定？是嘛！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:47:59.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:47:59.479000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:00.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:11.167000+08:00","text":"好，那請問一下，安排議程是召委的法定職權，院會可以決議委員會第一次（12月2日）議決的內容，要他們處理運作要點嗎？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:11.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:15.247000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:15.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:16.874000+08:00","text":"我們採委員會中心主義，基本上是委員會自……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:16.874000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:20.146000+08:00","text":"很好，謝謝。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:20.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:43.192000+08:00","text":"接下來第二個問題，既然院會決議要成立一個調查委員會，也決定調查委員會的組成，也告訴它時間、名單等等，還包括要推選召委之前的臨時主席，是由國民黨推派，都訂得很清楚了，而且這個委員會運作的時候要有一個運作要點。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:43.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:50.625000+08:00","text":"那現在我請教一下，你有沒有看到上上星期國際棒球十二強的決賽，有嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:50.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:51.926000+08:00","text":"臺灣的先發投手是誰，有沒有人可以告訴他？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:51.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:51.926000+08:00","text":"林昱珉。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:52.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:52.486000+08:00","text":"林昱珉，很好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:52.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:54.067000+08:00","text":"林昱珉是原來大會先發名單當中的嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:54.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:54.347000+08:00","text":"不是，臺灣更換了，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:54.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:54.427000+08:00","text":"更換了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:48:54.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:48:54.767000+08:00","text":"依規定可以更換嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:16.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:17.683000+08:00","text":"會受到處罰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:17.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:18.123000+08:00","text":"要罰款嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:19.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:21.305000+08:00","text":"我們臺灣就決定更換。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:21.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:25.287000+08:00","text":"那大會可以強制不更換或強制要更換嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:25.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:37.835000+08:00","text":"不行，很好，所以今天我們院會的決定，這個調查委員會的推派，各黨團推派代表之後，也彙報給院會知道後，第一次名單、先發名單出來了；先發名單出來之後，民進黨黨團可不可以更換？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:37.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:39.376000+08:00","text":"可不可以根據立法院職權行使法第四十五條，視實際情況改派，可不可以？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:48.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:49.128000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:49.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:50.128000+08:00","text":"我可不可以請議事處處長講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:49.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:49.648000+08:00","text":"來，處長，可不可以？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:49.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:50.570000+08:00","text":"可不可以改派？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:50.570000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:51.570000+08:00","text":"可以改派。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:50.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:49:53.334000+08:00","text":"名單、先發名單出來了，我可不可以改派？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:49:57.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:01.230000+08:00","text":"這個涉及到我們當初第一次院會的決議，剛剛……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:01.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:01.750000+08:00","text":"對，決議啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:02.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:02.791000+08:00","text":"決議說要送名單哪！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:02.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:03.411000+08:00","text":"名單送了沒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:04.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:05.633000+08:00","text":"名單如果不送的話，就是逾期。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:05.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:06.214000+08:00","text":"送了沒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:06.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:07.454000+08:00","text":"已經送了。送了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:07.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:08.454000+08:00","text":"而且院會已經備……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:07.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:08.415000+08:00","text":"送完之後可不可以改？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:08.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:09.836000+08:00","text":"而且院會已經備查過了。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:10.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:10.737000+08:00","text":"備查過了，可不可以改？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:10.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:13.819000+08:00","text":"備查過之後，這個備查的名單就用來開第一次會議。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:13.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:15.300000+08:00","text":"好，開了第一次會議，第一次會議開始開了嘛……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:15.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:17.642000+08:00","text":"第一次會議要開的時候，有黨團要求改派。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:17.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:18.123000+08:00","text":"那可不可以改？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:18.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:22.045000+08:00","text":"但是改派的話，循例還是要再報告院會。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:22.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:22.226000+08:00","text":"什麼叫循例？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:23.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:38.701000+08:00","text":"我們看下一個例子，議事處是彙報，院會報告……國民黨說必須正式行文備查方可變更，有這樣的規定嗎？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:40.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:48.071000+08:00","text":"當年陳柏惟委員解職後，我們黨團行文議事處改派蔡適應，院會備查，什麼時候生效？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:48.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:49.071000+08:00","text":"回去查啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:49.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:50.071000+08:00","text":"備查的意思是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:50.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:51.071000+08:00","text":"我決定了，事後告訴你就好了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:51.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:52.071000+08:00","text":"副秘書長，是不是這樣子？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:52.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:53.071000+08:00","text":"你熟讀法規嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:53.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:54.071000+08:00","text":"什麼叫備查？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:54.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:55.071000+08:00","text":"我決定了，事後告訴你，是不是這樣子？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:55.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:50:56.071000+08:00","text":"所以議事處的處長顯然對法規的了解有缺失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:50:52.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:51:45.275000+08:00","text":"調查委員會要命其出席，請問一下，國發會的這個設置要點，主管機關要聘請各黨團推薦的學者、專家遴聘之，這個基金會是根據一個設置管理條例依法遴聘之，遴聘的這些學者專家是由各黨團推薦。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:51:46.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:51:50.158000+08:00","text":"現在要調查的時候，這些學者專家有沒有出席的義務？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:51:52.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:51:53.624000+08:00","text":"立法院職權行使法，有沒有？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:51:54.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:51:59.948000+08:00","text":"基本上是遴聘，那遴聘了以後他應該就有出席義務。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:00.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:02.029000+08:00","text":"那是他對基金會的出席義務啊！對。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:03.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:04.631000+08:00","text":"現在是調查委員會要請他來啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:05.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:06.993000+08:00","text":"調查委員會要根據哪一條請他來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:13.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:16.490000+08:00","text":"我們的修正動議的內容是說什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:16.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:17.631000+08:00","text":"「弊案有無護航放水」。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:18.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:32.437000+08:00","text":"刑事不法，檢調偵查；違法失職，監察院彈劾糾舉；如果與行使憲法職權之特定議案有重大關聯，是立法院調查權，那麼現在調查弊案是立法院的職權嗎？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:32.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:32.498000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:32.498000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:33.498000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們請法制局局長回答，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:32.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:32.898000+08:00","text":"法制局局長，調查弊案是誰的職權？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:43.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:52:52.985000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關那個調查委員會，它必須針對特定議案，而特定議案所衍生的相關事項，就由調查委員來做。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:52:54.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:10.432000+08:00","text":"請問目前這個調查委員會，它可以調查的人，在我們立職法的規範當中，第四十六條及四十六條之一、之二、之三，還有第五十九條聽證權的內容……","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:10.432000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:11.432000+08:00","text":"報告委員，沒有第四十六條之三。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:11.432000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:12.432000+08:00","text":"對不起，是第四十七條第二項。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:10.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:13.815000+08:00","text":"第四十六條之二及第四十七條第二項和第五十九條之一、之三、之四、之五有沒有一樣？","quality":0.629},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:26.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:28.095000+08:00","text":"規範的內容有沒有一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:28.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:29.555000+08:00","text":"委員，你所謂的規範內容一樣……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:30.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:34.398000+08:00","text":"調查，要求人員來進行聽證或詢問。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:34.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:42.962000+08:00","text":"我們的調查權行使是在第八章第四十五條之後，這整章都都在規範調查……","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:43.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:47.225000+08:00","text":"那它跟我們聽證權的專章第五十九條之一至之五的內容……","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:47.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:48.185000+08:00","text":"它是第九章之一。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:48.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:49.406000+08:00","text":"第九章之一，對不對？對。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:49.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:50.406000+08:00","text":"第五十九條嘛！對。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:49.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:49.806000+08:00","text":"有沒有一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:52.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:53:53.839000+08:00","text":"有些一樣，有些不一樣嘛？對。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:53:57.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:54:24.829000+08:00","text":"副秘書長，立職法改了之後，我們看到立職法第五十九條之五第一項得拒絕證言之事由，涉及國安、國防及外交、法律明定之個人隱私或公司的秘密，請問第五十九條之五這些得拒絕證言的事由，在調查委員會裡面，第四十六條之一、第四十六條之二以及我們所說的四十七條第二項，有沒有一致？","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:54:26.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:54:27.096000+08:00","text":"有沒有一致？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:54:29.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:54:35.898000+08:00","text":"我直接告訴你，第四十七條第二項沒有所謂的涉及國安、國防及外交，也沒有法律明定的個人隱私或其他秘密啦！","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:54:37.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:54:49.761000+08:00","text":"所以同樣的一個調查委員會，當它辦聽證會或者進行調查的時候，被詢問或調查的人，他拒絕證言的事由就不一樣了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:54:52.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:54:56.082000+08:00","text":"副秘書長，院會的決議漏了國安跟隱私或營業秘密，當事人可不可以主張？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:54:57.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:09.523000+08:00","text":"院會的決議只有寫，詢問的內容不得逾越調查目的、事項、範圍，並於詢問前告知有拒絕證言之權利及事由，拒絕證言之事由準用行政訴訟法的相關規定。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:09.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:10.784000+08:00","text":"那麼有沒有包括第五十九條之五的內容？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:10.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:11.164000+08:00","text":"有沒有包括？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:11.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:12.005000+08:00","text":"這項決議的內容，我們有沒有說排除第五十九條之五的適用？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:21.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:34.524000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，第五十九條之五在大法官憲判字第9號的解釋意旨下，第五十九條之五指第一項沒有違憲。對啊！","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:34.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:35.524000+08:00","text":"沒有違憲，對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:34.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:38.307000+08:00","text":"第二項、第三項、第四項、第五項、第六項、第七項都被大法官宣判……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:38.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:41.009000+08:00","text":"是，所以這第一項的內容很重要，對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:41.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:48.395000+08:00","text":"第一項的內容就是說出席人員有下列情形之一者得拒絕證言或表達意見，他可以……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:48.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:55:51.357000+08:00","text":"局長，我的意思是說，11月20號的決議內文有沒有排除第五十九條之五第一項的適用？","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:55:57.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:01.003000+08:00","text":"這個要由調查委員會的委員他們做……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:02.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:04.344000+08:00","text":"剛剛副秘書長你不是說了嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:04.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:12.205000+08:00","text":"我們立法院院會的決議都不可以牴觸法律、違背法律，難道調查委員會可以排除第五十九條之五第一項的適用嗎？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:12.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:13.205000+08:00","text":"既然已經成立調查委員會，這個要由調查委員的委員合意……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:12.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:13.406000+08:00","text":"合意說我們不適用第五十九條之五第一項，可以這樣嗎？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:24.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:33.789000+08:00","text":"這個第五十九條之五的第一項，憲判字第9號它是沒有宣布違憲。對啊！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:33.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:34.329000+08:00","text":"沒有宣布違憲，所以要適用啊！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:35.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:35.790000+08:00","text":"就要適用啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:37.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:45.072000+08:00","text":"第五十九條之五第一項的內容，對於被要求去詢問的當事人的權利保障，比第四十七條的第二項更重要。","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:48.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:54.790000+08:00","text":"出席人員有下列之一者，得拒絕證言或表達意見，他可以拒絕證言，他也可以表達意見。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:55.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:57.131000+08:00","text":"是，所以應該要適用嘛！適用。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:58.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:56:59.392000+08:00","text":"這樣就對了，問了半天。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:56:59.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:13.041000+08:00","text":"最後，我要結束了，主席站起來……最後跟我們預算執行有關，副秘書長，你知道我們立法院的會議室有一些空氣品質指標，這個會議室有沒有？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:14.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:14.281000+08:00","text":"應該有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:14.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:15.302000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:15.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:16.643000+08:00","text":"沒有空氣品質指標啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:16.643000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:20.059000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:20.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:21.259000+08:00","text":"會議室是公報處的部分。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:21.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:21.799000+08:00","text":"公報處，有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:21.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:25.420000+08:00","text":"有沒有空氣品質指標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:25.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:25.420000+08:00","text":"是總務處。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:25.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:26.821000+08:00","text":"是哪一個處管的，你都搞不清楚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:28.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:28.922000+08:00","text":"哪裡有空氣指標？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:31.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:31.502000+08:00","text":"201就有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:32.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:33.843000+08:00","text":"201的交通委員會就有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:35.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:37.544000+08:00","text":"教育委員會紅樓101也有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:37.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:38.445000+08:00","text":"那為什麼這裡沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:39.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:39.673000+08:00","text":"是不是要有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:40.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:41.433000+08:00","text":"空氣品質指標要不要有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:41.433000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:42.594000+08:00","text":"要，這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:42.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:43.714000+08:00","text":"每個會議室都裝設，好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:44.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:45.654000+08:00","text":"可以承諾嗎？是。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:45.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:57:48.895000+08:00","text":"好，空氣品質很重要，噪音污染要不要研究一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:57:50.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:07.898000+08:00","text":"也要求比照空氣品質指標，把每個會議室的噪音指標也放進去，因為我們會議室的職場霸凌，空氣不好、噪音過吵，都會妨害我們的議事，承諾每個會議室都要安裝兩個，包括空氣品質跟噪音，可以嗎？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:07.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:08.898000+08:00","text":"可以，如果委員支持的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:08.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:09.898000+08:00","text":"好，當空氣品質不佳或者是噪音產生的時候，怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:09.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:10.898000+08:00","text":"有沒有斷訊、斷音？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:10.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:11.898000+08:00","text":"什麼情況之下可以消音？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:11.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:12.898000+08:00","text":"什麼時候可以斷訊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:12.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:13.898000+08:00","text":"有沒有這個規範？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:13.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:14.898000+08:00","text":"主席可以決定，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:14.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:15.898000+08:00","text":"如果空氣品質太差、聲音太吵，怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:15.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:16.898000+08:00","text":"基本上這是國會自律事項。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:16.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:17.898000+08:00","text":"國會自律事項，設備要不要支持？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副秘書長裕榮","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:17.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:18.898000+08:00","text":"設備我們絕對支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:09.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:58:10.699000+08:00","text":"要支持主席可以做出這樣的決定嘛！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:58:43.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:00.823000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望調查委員會根據我們的立職法，那麼應該就要遵照立職法的規定，而且請責成法制局，立職法通過之後，前後條文相關需要整合的配套規章，要求一併提出一個研究報告。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:02.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:06.948000+08:00","text":"這個跟委員報告，我們在憲判字第9號之後，我們有做一個……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:09.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:16.246000+08:00","text":"應備齊的配套規章有沒有準備了？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:16.246000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:17.246000+08:00","text":"我們在113年6月24號，我們國會五法修正過後，總共修了大概41個條款，包含中華民國刑法，那……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:17.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:18.147000+08:00","text":"配套規章準備了沒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:18.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:25.970000+08:00","text":"我們是有把它整理，我們事後再提供給委員會跟委員辦公室，可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭局長明政","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:25.970000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:26.970000+08:00","text":"我們把它完全整理了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:26.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:33.554000+08:00","text":"好，副秘書長，責成法制局一個月內把相關的配套規章，應備齊的條文、應該補齊的，我們國會要趕快迅速推動內規，我是問副秘書長啦！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:33.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:33.814000+08:00","text":"一個月內可以嗎？可以。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:33.814000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:38.295000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T09:59:38.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T09:59:38.797000+08:00","text":"那我們下一位請黃國昌委員發言。","quality":0.5}]},"gazette":{"lineno":338,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時41分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。主席，我可不可先請副秘書長？但是我要先了解他哪些部分可以取代秘書長，再請其他可以幫忙的人上臺，可以嗎？先請副秘書長，好不好？"],["主席：好，麻煩副秘書長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先來問一下，我再決定要請誰來協助他，因為……"],["主席：所以你的意思是說時間先不要跑？"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，先不要動。"],["主席：好，那我們時間先不要動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副秘書長，抱歉，如果今天是秘書長的話，我就可以很放心，我必須詢問一下你對於法規的嫻熟，才決定邀請哪些主管來協助你，好嗎？你對中華民國憲法熟悉嗎？熟讀啦？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上熟悉。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，增修條文熟讀吧？立法院組織法熟悉吧？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：有閱讀過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院職權行使法如果不了解的話，你會問誰？法制局還是議事處？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：兩位可能都會問。"],["鍾委員佳濱：議事規則不熟悉，你會問誰？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：議事處。"],["鍾委員佳濱：議事處，好，議事規則你熟嘛？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：目前在熟悉當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，職權行使法剛修過，你熟嘛？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：因為修了很多，我熟悉的是比較舊的，不過沒關係……"],["鍾委員佳濱：新的你要適應？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院各委員會組織法你熟嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：有涉獵過一部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不了解你會問誰？問議事處嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：應該會問法制局。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們就請議事處跟法制局分別上來。"],["主席：麻煩議事處、法制局。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我這樣可以開始問了。","副秘書長，請教一下，你認為立法院存在的目的，這個組織存在的目的，根據組織法第二條目的是什麼？是不是要協助立法委員來問政、行使憲法的職權，是不是？你不用看法條，我就告訴你了，立法院組織法，立法委員行使職權嘛！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法委員就來開會嘛！立法院組織法存在就是要讓我們立法委員來開會，你認為民主國家的軍隊可以阻止國會議員到立法院開會嗎？到國會開會嗎？可不可以？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不行，好，我們憲法規定中華民國總統可不可以宣布戒嚴？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是要怎麼樣？是不是要經過立法院的通過或追認？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有通過或追認有沒有效？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：憲法第三十九條你熟讀嘛！對不對？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：增修條文認為，總統在戒嚴的時候可以解散國會嗎？不可以嘛！這直接回答，顯然你不太熟喔！不可以，對不對？所以如果在臺灣，根據中華民國憲法跟增修條文，總統要宣布戒嚴要經過國會同意，而且在這段時間不能解散國會，要維持國會的運作，是不是這樣？那戒嚴法第一條，什麼時候我們可以宣布戒嚴？要有戰爭或叛亂發生嘛！對不對？而且在一個月內要提交立法院追認嘛！是不是？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們昨天看到一個情況，你認為在臺灣可不可能發生？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上所有憲法設計的都有可能發生。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，你認為在臺灣可能發生？我們臺灣的法律，憲法規定跟韓國不一樣，你覺得昨天韓國的這個事情有沒有可能在臺灣發生？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我認為不太可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不太可能，很好。","那我現在問的就是我們審預算的事情，議事處及法制局分別的職掌，剛剛問過了。議事處是負責什麼？議事事項，對不對？法制局是法制諮詢事項，你確認嘛！好。","我們院會在11月22日決議要成立國發基金調查委員會，名單於11月27日前送議事處，12月2日我們第一次開會選召委。我問你，院會的決議可不可以牴觸法律？可不可以違背法律？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不行，很好。我們看一下，這是院會的決議、11月22日，它有幾個重點，規定了調查委員會之組成，按照各黨團的席次比例推派，依席次比例分布，多少席？7、6、1，是不是這樣子？然後是誰推派？黨團推派。那誰彙整？議事處彙整。彙整有沒有審查或否准的權利？沒有，它只是彙整。然後什麼叫院會彙報？彙報給大會知道嘛！各黨團送來的名單，院會有否准的權利嗎？有沒有否准的權利？大聲點，有沒有？沒有？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，好。這裡面規定了黨團推派、比例如何，而且規定了名單要跟院會報告，第一次會議是什麼時間決定了，對不對？決定了時間，對不對？就是12月2日，是由國民黨黨團推派臨時主席，對不對？臨時主席要做什麼事情？要決定召集人，對不對？召集人幾位？幾位？1位，寫在哪裡？立法院職權行使法第四十六條，調查委員會設召集委員一名，是嘛！好，然後這個調查委員會要不要運作？要不要有運作要點？要。你們要協助人，大聲一點，時間很寶貴，該誰跟我們副秘書長提出提示……好，那我先問你一下，根據立法院各委員會組織法第四條之一條，委員會之議程，是由召委決定，那麼包不包括調查委員會？調查委員會的議程是不是由調查委員會的召委決定？根據我們過去的慣例，調查委員會成立，召委產生之後，是不是調查委員會的議程由該委員會的召委決定？是嘛！是不是？好，那請問一下，安排議程是召委的法定職權，院會可以決議委員會第一次（12月2日）議決的內容，要他們處理運作要點嗎？可不可以？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我們採委員會中心主義，基本上是委員會自……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝。接下來第二個問題，既然院會決議要成立一個調查委員會，也決定調查委員會的組成，也告訴它時間、名單等等，還包括要推選召委之前的臨時主席，是由國民黨推派，都訂得很清楚了，而且這個委員會運作的時候要有一個運作要點。那現在我請教一下，你有沒有看到上上星期國際棒球十二強的決賽，有嘛！臺灣的先發投手是誰，有沒有人可以告訴他？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：林昱珉。"],["鍾委員佳濱：林昱珉，很好。林昱珉是原來大會先發名單當中的嗎？不是，臺灣更換了，對不對？更換了。依規定可以更換嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：會受到處罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要罰款嘛！我們臺灣就決定更換。那大會可以強制不更換或強制要更換嗎？不行，很好，所以今天我們院會的決定，這個調查委員會的推派，各黨團推派代表之後，也彙報給院會知道後，第一次名單、先發名單出來了；先發名單出來之後，民進黨黨團可不可以更換？可不可以根據立法院職權行使法第四十五條，視實際情況改派，可不可以？可不可以？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我可不可以請議事處處長講？"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，處長，可不可以？可不可以改派？"],["高處長百祥：可以改派。"],["鍾委員佳濱：名單、先發名單出來了，我可不可以改派？"],["高處長百祥：這個涉及到我們當初第一次院會的決議，剛剛……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，決議啊！決議說要送名單哪！名單送了沒？"],["高處長百祥：名單如果不送的話，就是逾期。"],["鍾委員佳濱：送了沒？"],["高處長百祥：已經送了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：送了。"],["高處長百祥：而且院會已經備……"],["鍾委員佳濱：送完之後可不可以改？"],["高處長百祥：而且院會已經備查過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：備查過了，可不可以改？"],["高處長百祥：備查過之後，這個備查的名單就用來開第一次會議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，開了第一次會議，第一次會議開始開了嘛……"],["高處長百祥：第一次會議要開的時候，有黨團要求改派。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那可不可以改？"],["高處長百祥：但是改派的話，循例還是要再報告院會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼叫循例？我們看下一個例子，議事處是彙報，院會報告……國民黨說必須正式行文備查方可變更，有這樣的規定嗎？當年陳柏惟委員解職後，我們黨團行文議事處改派蔡適應，院會備查，什麼時候生效？回去查啦！備查的意思是什麼？我決定了，事後告訴你就好了啦！","副秘書長，是不是這樣子？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你熟讀法規嘛！什麼叫備查？我決定了，事後告訴你，是不是這樣子？","所以議事處的處長顯然對法規的了解有缺失。","調查委員會要命其出席，請問一下，國發會的這個設置要點，主管機關要聘請各黨團推薦的學者、專家遴聘之，這個基金會是根據一個設置管理條例依法遴聘之，遴聘的這些學者專家是由各黨團推薦。現在要調查的時候，這些學者專家有沒有出席的義務？立法院職權行使法，有沒有？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上是遴聘，那遴聘了以後他應該就有出席義務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是他對基金會的出席義務啊！"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是調查委員會要請他來啊！調查委員會要根據哪一條請他來？我們的修正動議的內容是說什麼？「弊案有無護航放水」。刑事不法，檢調偵查；違法失職，監察院彈劾糾舉；如果與行使憲法職權之特定議案有重大關聯，是立法院調查權，那麼現在調查弊案是立法院的職權嗎？是不是？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：這個部分我們請法制局局長回答，好不好？"],["鍾委員佳濱：法制局局長，調查弊案是誰的職權？"],["郭局長明政：跟委員報告，有關那個調查委員會，它必須針對特定議案，而特定議案所衍生的相關事項，就由調查委員來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問目前這個調查委員會，它可以調查的人，在我們立職法的規範當中，第四十六條及四十六條之一、之二、之三，還有第五十九條聽證權的內容……"],["郭局長明政：報告委員，沒有第四十六條之三。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對不起，是第四十七條第二項。第四十六條之二及第四十七條第二項和第五十九條之一、之三、之四、之五有沒有一樣？規範的內容有沒有一樣？"],["郭局長明政：委員，你所謂的規範內容一樣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：調查，要求人員來進行聽證或詢問。"],["郭局長明政：我們的調查權行使是在第八章第四十五條之後，這整章都都在規範調查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那它跟我們聽證權的專章第五十九條之一至之五的內容……"],["郭局長明政：它是第九章之一。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第九章之一，對不對？"],["郭局長明政：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第五十九條嘛！"],["郭局長明政：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有一樣？有些一樣，有些不一樣嘛？"],["郭局長明政：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。副秘書長，立職法改了之後，我們看到立職法第五十九條之五第一項得拒絕證言之事由，涉及國安、國防及外交、法律明定之個人隱私或公司的秘密，請問第五十九條之五這些得拒絕證言的事由，在調查委員會裡面，第四十六條之一、第四十六條之二以及我們所說的四十七條第二項，有沒有一致？有沒有一致？我直接告訴你，第四十七條第二項沒有所謂的涉及國安、國防及外交，也沒有法律明定的個人隱私或其他秘密啦！所以同樣的一個調查委員會，當它辦聽證會或者進行調查的時候，被詢問或調查的人，他拒絕證言的事由就不一樣了。副秘書長，院會的決議漏了國安跟隱私或營業秘密，當事人可不可以主張？院會的決議只有寫，詢問的內容不得逾越調查目的、事項、範圍，並於詢問前告知有拒絕證言之權利及事由，拒絕證言之事由準用行政訴訟法的相關規定。那麼有沒有包括第五十九條之五的內容？有沒有包括？這項決議的內容，我們有沒有說排除第五十九條之五的適用？"],["郭局長明政：跟委員報告，第五十九條之五在大法官憲判字第9號的解釋意旨下，第五十九條之五指第一項沒有違憲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！沒有違憲，對啊！"],["郭局長明政：第二項、第三項、第四項、第五項、第六項、第七項都被大法官宣判……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以這第一項的內容很重要，對不對？"],["郭局長明政：第一項的內容就是說出席人員有下列情形之一者得拒絕證言或表達意見，他可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長，我的意思是說，11月20號的決議內文有沒有排除第五十九條之五第一項的適用？"],["郭局長明政：這個要由調查委員會的委員他們做……"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛副秘書長你不是說了嗎？我們立法院院會的決議都不可以牴觸法律、違背法律，難道調查委員會可以排除第五十九條之五第一項的適用嗎？"],["郭局長明政：既然已經成立調查委員會，這個要由調查委員的委員合意……"],["鍾委員佳濱：合意說我們不適用第五十九條之五第一項，可以這樣嗎？"],["郭局長明政：這個第五十九條之五的第一項，憲判字第9號它是沒有宣布違憲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！沒有宣布違憲，所以要適用啊！就要適用啊！第五十九條之五第一項的內容，對於被要求去詢問的當事人的權利保障，比第四十七條的第二項更重要。"],["郭局長明政：出席人員有下列之一者，得拒絕證言或表達意見，他可以拒絕證言，他也可以表達意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以應該要適用嘛！"],["郭局長明政：適用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣就對了，問了半天。最後，我要結束了，主席站起來……最後跟我們預算執行有關，副秘書長，你知道我們立法院的會議室有一些空氣品質指標，這個會議室有沒有？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：應該有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啊！沒有空氣品質指標啊！有沒有？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：會議室是公報處的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：公報處，有沒有？有沒有空氣品質指標？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是總務處。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是哪一個處管的，你都搞不清楚？哪裡有空氣指標？201就有啦！201的交通委員會就有啦！教育委員會紅樓101也有啦！那為什麼這裡沒有？是不是要有？空氣品質指標要不要有？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：要，這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：每個會議室都裝設，好不好？可以承諾嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，空氣品質很重要，噪音污染要不要研究一下？也要求比照空氣品質指標，把每個會議室的噪音指標也放進去，因為我們會議室的職場霸凌，空氣不好、噪音過吵，都會妨害我們的議事，承諾每個會議室都要安裝兩個，包括空氣品質跟噪音，可以嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：可以，如果委員支持的話。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，當空氣品質不佳或者是噪音產生的時候，怎麼辦？有沒有斷訊、斷音？什麼情況之下可以消音？什麼時候可以斷訊？有沒有這個規範？主席可以決定，是不是？如果空氣品質太差、聲音太吵，怎麼處理？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上這是國會自律事項。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國會自律事項，設備要不要支持？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：設備我們絕對支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要支持主席可以做出這樣的決定嘛！所以我們希望調查委員會根據我們的立職法，那麼應該就要遵照立職法的規定，而且請責成法制局，立職法通過之後，前後條文相關需要整合的配套規章，要求一併提出一個研究報告。"],["郭局長明政：這個跟委員報告，我們在憲判字第9號之後，我們有做一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：應備齊的配套規章有沒有準備了？"],["郭局長明政：我們在113年6月24號，我們國會五法修正過後，總共修了大概41個條款，包含中華民國刑法，那……"],["鍾委員佳濱：配套規章準備了沒？"],["郭局長明政：我們是有把它整理，我們事後再提供給委員會跟委員辦公室，可不可以？我們把它完全整理了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，副秘書長，責成法制局一個月內把相關的配套規章，應備齊的條文、應該補齊的，我們國會要趕快迅速推動內規，我是問副秘書長啦！一個月內可以嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。那我們下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","林思銘","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","葉元之","吳思瑤","謝龍介"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11311101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}