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字幕組"},{"start":1407.23,"end":1408.352,"text":"食藥署為股利符合時"},{"start":1755.666,"end":1771.994,"text":"好我們現在開會出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年3月27日星期三9時至13時37分3月28日星期四9時2分至13時22分地點群賢樓801會議室"},{"start":1779.938,"end":1799.256,"text":"出席委員．林月琴等15人．列席委員．黃國昌等28人．列席官員．3月27日．環境部部長薛復聖等相關人員．3月28日．衛生福利部部長薛瑞元等相關人員．主席黃兆吉委員秀芳．3月27日報告事項一．宣讀上次會議議事錄．決定確定"},{"start":1801.658,"end":1809.9,"text":"處理環境部含為中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結案書面報告45案決定均同意動之並提報院會邀請環境部部長就邁向探有價時代、探費擬定時程表及探費審議委員會之相關內容進行專題報告．並備質詢本日會議專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答"},{"start":1826.303,"end":1844.965,"text":"由環境部部長報告後委員林月琴等26人提出質詢均經環境部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於2週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定"},{"start":1846.006,"end":1869.362,"text":"討論事項審查環境部含為中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部有關環境部主管預算凍結案書面報告4案決議報告及詢答完畢均同意動之並提報院會3月28日報告事項一處理衛生福利部含為中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結案書面報告18案決定"},{"start":1871.784,"end":1896.227,"text":"第11、12及13案令則其繼續處理與均同意動之並提報院會．邀請衛生福利部部長就社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進辦法進行專題報告．並備質詢。．邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議．要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告"},{"start":1897.588,"end":1913.84,"text":"進行專題報告．並備質詢本日會議專題報告綜合詢答由衛生福利部部長及教育部政務次長林明玉報告後委員陳昭芝等22人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及教育部政務次長及各相關主管等即席答覆"},{"start":1914.56,"end":1936.562,"text":"委員黃珊珊、楊耀、邱振鈞、張祺凱及陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定宣讀完畢好,請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1938.18,"end":1960.039,"text":"若沒有議事錄確定本日會議議程為邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．"},{"start":1964.597,"end":1991.726,"text":"現在介紹現場的委員及列席的官員我們現場的委員陳昭之委員林月琴委員王振旭委員我們現場的官員衛生福利部薛瑞元部長食品藥物管理署吳秀美署長疾病管制署羅一鈞副署長環境部化學物質管理署謝彥儒署長"},{"start":1993.65,"end":2020.973,"text":"評估管理組．林松景組長食品安全辦公室主任．徐福主任消費者保護費．鍾瑞蘭處長檢任消保官．梁明俊檢任消保官臺灣菸酒公司賴煥中副總經理生技事業處．柯惠玲處長"},{"start":2023.753,"end":2027.837,"text":"經濟部商業發展署劉雅娟副署長補充介紹委員陳瑩委員好接下來我們請衛福部學部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2047.095,"end":2074.751,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開的全體委員會議本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸之就蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為提出專題報告進行各位委員不吝會議指教"},{"start":2076.924,"end":2076.944,"text":"第1個"},{"start":2078.659,"end":2102.516,"text":"辣椒粉檢出蘇丹色素案之檢討與策進作為本部食藥署與跨部會的通力合作維護食品安全所以就源頭主角強化管理強化業者自主管理以及預防業者組織犯罪強化風險預警分析及設立專區資訊公開等策進作為分數如下"},{"start":2108.079,"end":2129.645,"text":"1.辣椒粉及辣椒乾,邊境都逐批檢驗蘇丹色素。2.經邊境或後市場茶宴不合格且情節重大者,立即停止其源頭製造場輸入茶宴。邊境檢出蘇丹色素者,一律銷毀,不得退運。"},{"start":2130.805,"end":2159.395,"text":"3、無限期停止中國21家製造廠及國內7家輸入業者35個號列產品的輸入查案申請4、辦理食品業者自主管理說明會並周知所有的食品業者適時自主管理有衛生安全之律者應該主動通報5、比對可能的業者名單納入邊境預警的名單"},{"start":2162.119,"end":2170.858,"text":"6.針對組織犯罪涉案的11家業者,廢止他的業務登記事項及食品業者的登錄,且不得辦理食品業者登錄。"},{"start":2175.837,"end":2192.224,"text":"7.盤點國際警訊非法添加物質,列入邊境檢驗項目8.設立辣椒粉檢出蘇丹色素不合格專區,公布政府作為以及檢出蘇丹色素產品相關資訊"},{"start":2194.329,"end":2214.995,"text":"那第二個案件是日本小林製藥紅麴案的檢討以及策進作為那有關日本小林製藥股份有限公司紅麴產品造成的民眾健康影響事件那有五項的紅麴產品那這些都沒有臺灣的輸入的記錄"},{"start":2217.896,"end":2241.188,"text":"但是這一個仍然是有兩家業者有進口這個小林製藥的紅麴產品的原料所以本部食藥署是接獲這個資訊之後積極處理辦理以下的措施第一個停止日本小林製藥紅麴原料及相關產品輸入查案登記"},{"start":2242.809,"end":2256.405,"text":"通知所有食品業者停止使用及販售日本小林製藥的紅麴原料及相關食品並落實自主通報主動稽查曾輸入日本小林製藥紅麴原料的兩家業者"},{"start":2258.627,"end":2277.616,"text":"預防性封存並責令業者落實回收的相關產品。第四,持續向日本洽詢本案相關資訊與日方處置作為。第五,設置日本小林製藥紅麴案相關資訊專期,提供日本及國內回收產品的資訊。第六,"},{"start":2279.457,"end":2308.016,"text":"提供民眾非預期反應通報與食安專線的諮詢服務．食安保護基金也可以補助消費者團體進行訴訟．第三,寶林茶室的食品中毒案本部食藥署在113年3月24日起陸續接獲地方衛生局通報寶林茶室疑似食物中毒案件"},{"start":2309.958,"end":2330.976,"text":"今天已經累計通報有31名的病人那死亡人數是兩人經過通報後本部級展開下列作為第一個聯合稽查抽驗對於寶林茶室及果條供應商完成聯合稽查並抽驗50件的檢體優先檢測果條米酵菌酸毒素"},{"start":2337.863,"end":2362.765,"text":"並廣篩藥物、農藥及其他化學藥至少有15000則品項目前在這一個35件從寶林茶室扣回的以及這一個供應商大阪城那邊所扣回來的這一些樣品都已經完成那沒有檢出這個米酵菌酸米酵菌酸毒素"},{"start":2363.7,"end":2386.991,"text":"那第二個是召開專家會議那3月27日召開專家會議那會上多數的專家意見指向是米酵菌酸毒素的中毒那3月29召開專家會議就食品中米酵菌酸污染的預防收集專家的意見那即使說明進度"},{"start":2388.552,"end":2413.29,"text":"在3月28日晚上有召開記者會首例死亡個案有驗出米酵菌酸是國內首次發現這個毒素目前的話大概有已經十幾個案子包括這些重症案子、死亡案子還有幾件輕症案子都有驗出來是有米酵菌酸這一個"},{"start":2415.712,"end":2417.993,"text":"這兩個案子的話是沒有驗出米酵菌酸"},{"start":2442.263,"end":2443.203,"text":"好,我們謝謝部長的報告"},{"start":2471.398,"end":2495.283,"text":"現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面諮詢請於三會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案如有提案請盡早提出以例議事進行有關本次會議"},{"start":2496.912,"end":2508.065,"text":"各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始進行我們的質詢請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員好麻煩薛部長好請薛部長"},{"start":2521.341,"end":2545.849,"text":"委員好 薛副長早安 薛副長請問您有沒有參加3月13號的食安會報有 有參加 好很好那部長知道這次會報當中陳建仁院長有做出一項重要的這個指示就是在3月底前要訂定食品檢驗處理的一個SOP讓第一線負責這個食品安檢的這個人員能有所依詢請問部長這個SOP出爐了嗎"},{"start":2549.464,"end":2560.291,"text":"這已經有定出來已經出爐了是不是好確定那請部長是不是簡單說明一下這份新的SOP跟過去的程序有什麼不同有哪些精進的地方"},{"start":2561.556,"end":2586.351,"text":"主要是在邊境的部分的話那我們就是在這種特定的不應該出現在食品裡面的這種化學品有發現的話馬上就是把這個抽批的這個比例的話提升到100%就逐批檢查那這是在邊境那第二個就是說如果檢查有的話就一定是銷毀沒有退運的"},{"start":2587.392,"end":2598.335,"text":"好 了解 謝謝部長那部長在蘇丹紅辣椒粉全面大爆發之前我就曾經上了食藥署的這個邊境檢驗部符合食品資訊查詢網上去查詢因為我想要了解有沒有這個類似的情形那請看這個左邊這張圖當時我是查到2021年8月13日海順公司就曾經進口含蘇丹色素的辣椒粉"},{"start":2610.899,"end":2620.314,"text":"那現在因為後來新聞越來越多嘛等於是全國淪陷所以我重新回到這個網站上再去重新查詢那一查不得了的部長"},{"start":2622.017,"end":2623.318,"text":"這個系統的問題我是不是可以請我們署長來回答好麻煩署長"},{"start":2649,"end":2665.298,"text":"委員好 因為我們過去其實是把歷年的通通都放上去 但資料非常的大所以後來我們都是擺近兩年的 近兩年的資料這個說不過去啊 這麼巧 我之前還在 還沒辦花錢都查到這樣子的機制已經很久了 應該有好幾年了"},{"start":2665.899,"end":2687.338,"text":"但是之前我明明秀我查到2021年而且這個系統這個不足這個食藥署就是在幾十年前的藥品區核證都查得到資料健保署30年這個核架這個歷史也都查得到這個系統或是capacity問題說不過去說不過去這個是硬拗啦反正這麼巧就是要查查不到而且最重要部長"},{"start":2687.958,"end":2704.259,"text":"你們自己也說辣椒粉保存期限至少3年嘛所以會從2021年進口的開始全面清查結果時間還在那裡面啊這現在還沒有查完你這些違法廠商的資料就全部消失了衛福部是在幫這些違法廠商做遮羞布嗎"},{"start":2705.25,"end":2734.46,"text":"沒有啦 這我們的確是可以檢討啦就是說呈現資料的這個區間到底要幾年那部長我現在要求重新本期要求重新上傳這些資料而且時間三年是起碼的嘛有些像罐頭保存時間更久是不是可以追溯到五年讓民眾至少他有可以去了解有機會去了解這些違規的這個廠商嘛我們看一下啦就是說你可以承諾嗎部長製藥庫的容量怎麼樣大概至少三年這個可以啦"},{"start":2735.14,"end":2760.858,"text":"但是現在是全部消失了現在是兩年了2021年我查到這麼巧在近日就全部都不見了2021年剛好過了現在是2024年部長我們要求這些是最基本的資料因為這個保存期都還在這裡面部長你們上個禮拜3月26號又公布有1萬公斤的蘇丹紅的辣椒粉是在邊境被查到剛剛你也報告了那我還是要再確認一下你們這個是退運還是銷毀"},{"start":2763.3,"end":2779.72,"text":"右邊這邊三千公斤跟七千公斤總共一萬公斤消毀你是消毀但是請看一下你們處置行情我把它放大案內不符合商品依規定退運或消毀退運是退運消毀是消毀退運可能在公海繞一條"},{"start":2780.401,"end":2781.021,"text":"對人民來說意義差別太大,完全是兩件事情"},{"start":2805.297,"end":2821.698,"text":"那部長這個寶林這個茶室食安問題已經造成糧食現在還有一些人還有幾位在搶救中當然我們了解可能的是還是類似這個米酵菌酸這個化學物致死的可能性是很高的那也有人判斷說是食物保存當中出了問題現在還沒有真相"},{"start":2823.359,"end":2838.97,"text":"衛福部在2010年有推動餐飲衛生管理分級平和分級平和系統食藥署來制定這個所謂基本資料表那這個平和系統是由業者自主申請然後由地方衛生局負責去平和那是不是有通過那分成優"},{"start":2839.79,"end":2853.297,"text":"跟兩種等級那食藥署每年也會去公布在右邊這個地方公布就是說通過衛生平和餐飲業的加速跟名單例如右邊這個就是去年這是2023年有4640家的餐飲加速申請這個平和那有4489通過部長請問您給這個政策這個平和政策打幾分"},{"start":2867.013,"end":2891.244,"text":"這平和政策的話當然就是一個鼓勵的性質讓這個自信有優良的廠商他可以來參加那如果他經過這個平和通過的時候是優惠兩的話那經過我們的這個對外那請問寶林茶室有沒有在這個名單上有沒有在這個平和的名單上這個可能我要查一下看看"},{"start":2892.024,"end":2909.795,"text":"部長我直接告訴你寶林茶室沒有在這個名單上因為他根本沒有申請茶盒沒有參加評核部長我統計過去這幾年來臺灣攤飲業者的家數跟有參加衛福部衛生評核的家數我們來看看看這個百分比前幾年都2%去年是3%"},{"start":2914.045,"end":2914.225,"text":"這不能這樣講因為這個"},{"start":2925.171,"end":2948.327,"text":"就好像米其林一樣,不會每一家都是...百分之三等於沒有做嘛百分之三,米其林更少所以不能這樣講我們正在談安全,不是談好吃你如果是一個好的一個朋友的機制部長,我告訴你,參議院為什麼不參加?可能是沒有誘因嘛就那兩張紙,你發給他兩次,一次誘惑兩,那他貼不貼呢?這個就是比米其林還稀有嘛,我們看不到那兩張紙嘛不見得啦"},{"start":2950.228,"end":2975.698,"text":"那部長我再請教你立法院如果我想在立法院附近有哪些是通過這個衛生優良平和的我有方式去找嗎我有方式去了解嗎在這立法院有你們有個地圖這個食藥署有個實在優良地圖食品的實在優良地圖據說可以用GPS定位找到附近的優良餐廳那我們來看一下這個地圖怎麼用我助理做了這個影片"},{"start":2977.287,"end":3004.104,"text":"只要屬為鼓勵符合食品良好衛生規範的優良餐飲業,自99年起開始推動餐飲衛生管理分級平和,自106年起民眾可以利用食藥署的實在優良查詢地圖,透過衛星定位的方式,直接看到附近通過分級平和的餐飲業者,作為外出聚餐的選擇參考。好那我們就點進去這個實在優良地圖看看怎麼找餐廳,好我們來找一下臺北市中正區有哪些衛生優良餐廳。"},{"start":3005.629,"end":3022.013,"text":"哎哎哎根本顯示不出來啊而且這是南港區不是中正區啊再來是一個來看看賴清德副總統的老家新北市萬里區有什麼衛生優良餐廳新北市萬里區查詢同樣顯示錯誤實要數這個實在優良地圖"},{"start":3028.82,"end":3052.162,"text":"部長其實我知道食藥署跟地方衛生局同仁其實都很忙碌我其實不忍心苛責但是一個政策搞成這個樣子實在令人搖頭我建議乾脆打掉重練打掉重練我們是不是找到一個方法也可以方便查核民眾可以查詢然後業者願意參加的這個評鑑制度重新打掉重練好嗎部長其實"},{"start":3055.854,"end":3069.672,"text":"重練大概內容也不會差太多啦所以這個是系統的問題這系統問題我們根本查不到好嗎部長剛剛大家都看到影片了所以這是系統系統不知道哪個地方有BUG啦這我們大概一天的時間就可以處理一下剛剛也是問系統現在還是BUG部長"},{"start":3072.836,"end":3085.118,"text":"本期建議衛福部可以參考這個英國的做法那個部長一定去過英國吧在英國的餐廳大概都有貼一張綠黑的這個貼紙那這貼紙從0分到5分都有一個評價所以依照規定英國的餐廳在開業的時候除了需要取得食品衛生的這個執照公眾責任保險還需要主動聯絡他們叫做食品局然後官方派人來查核會打分數如果0分當然要立刻改進如果2分以下必須一直改進到下一次的查核為止5分"},{"start":3102.762,"end":3103.022,"text":"您覺得臺灣可以參考這個制度嗎?"},{"start":3120.273,"end":3136.07,"text":"就是說有強制性、延期又公開的做法其實臺灣的制度跟這個並沒有差太多啦對阿剛剛講的沒有差太多優良的話大概就是屬於但是百分之百欸強制性欸對阿但是我們的那個GHP的差額也是百分之百阿"},{"start":3137.031,"end":3137.851,"text":"接下來我們請林月琴委員進行質詢"},{"start":3170.93,"end":3172.611,"text":"二月一號我是新克利委上任食安問題現在就已經是第三期上這件事情讓民眾大家都是感到焦慮那還有資訊非常混亂所以想就教育部長因為第一次我上台質詢就是問食安問題"},{"start":3200.407,"end":3211.586,"text":"那想問一下上次我有建議說針對於是不是資訊這麼混亂的話是不是可以加我們的在你的平台上增加食安安全的即時新聞的連結跟"},{"start":3213.012,"end":3215.333,"text":"上次我也提過要源頭管理可是從我們的食品安全衛生管理法第7條講要自主管理"},{"start":3240.188,"end":3252.1,"text":"那到底多少業者可以做到因為自行把花錢然後呢把採購進來的原物料送去化驗所以金周刊他報導說以蘇丹紅為例2021年到2023年有廠商他自主檢驗513次"},{"start":3260.369,"end":3286.73,"text":"總減經費花掉156萬過程當中曾經驗出有問題的蘇丹紅可是基於人情壓力所以呢頂多就是我拒絕那個廠商進到我這邊進貨所以政府如何期待他會針對有問題的一個是有錢的他好啦他自己為了自保他驗了可是如果沒有錢的甚至有意要那你用自主管理所以我不知道這個政府如何期待他會去通報哪些貨有問題"},{"start":3288.609,"end":3314.854,"text":"這是強制要通報的如果他自主檢查發現有問題的話不是私了把東西退回給原來的廠商就好他還要另外要做通報可是部長他總共花掉156萬到底有誰有這麼有的有財力齁就是因為這是金鐘看報告他已經檢查了嘛他已經檢驗嘛檢驗出來是有問題這個就要通報那你說沒有財力沒有做這個檢查那這是另外一件事情"},{"start":3317.317,"end":3333.562,"text":"所以可不可以建議是現在食品安全衛生檢查的那個處理跟獎勵辦法只針對個人獎勵可是如果有犯罪有系統性的有時候反而不是因為一些化學性的危害絕不是一般消費者有能力發現的是不是應該擴及到組織獎勵企業熱於提報這才會是可以有機會"},{"start":3341.64,"end":3367.493,"text":"業者如果說是自己驗出來不管用什麼樣的方法把它驗出來有的話本來就應該通報這沒有通報還有處罰的那另外一個是那民眾的部分民眾的部分我們有吹哨者的條款在食安法裡面也有那民眾如果自己能夠有這種檢舉的話那如果呈案的話還是有獎勵的"},{"start":3370.773,"end":3389.577,"text":"這個是最近我們的紅麴事件那小林製藥大概1月15號就已經延燒一段時間那食藥署是到3月30號公告225件要下架的名單那有很多東西事實上是熱銷的一些產品"},{"start":3390.373,"end":3413.051,"text":"那就想問這邊在很快在3月30號我們也看到了就是我們的衛福部有這個業者的主動預防就是預防性下架的資訊可是我們在我在很多群組都看到民眾也在問就是說到底像這個東西我家裡有的話"},{"start":3414.877,"end":3438.551,"text":"我到底要不要吃還是一樣資訊比較混亂另外一個想問的是如果廠商在一批貨品在問題我們的紅麴事件發生前後上架的話那這個2月比如上上架3月這批貨有問題3月1號那2月份的要不要要在事前發生要通報下架是不是也要所有產品都要下架"},{"start":3439.98,"end":3467.268,"text":"基本上那個有使用到這個小林的紅麴的原料製作的在國內製作的那這些通通都要下架那是預防性的下架連前嗎?就是說它是尖點甲是3月1號可是往前2月份的話還是要下架還是要下架那現在想問網路雜貨店這些廠商不一定都直接掌握通路都確保安全性嗎?都已經預防性下架都做完了嗎?"},{"start":3469.029,"end":3495.625,"text":"這個都有在查不過對民眾來講的話你既然是知道這個那你下架就是意思就是你如果已經買了就不要吃了就不要吃了然後是否要退貨這個就要看每一家廠商都有退貨的專項我現在看很多什麼益生菌之類的甚至有一些非常有名的如果是家裡有老人家的他不會上你的網站他怎麼知道"},{"start":3496.192,"end":3524.173,"text":"他正在服用的這些保養品可能有問題目前現在做了什麼事這種東西如果說是老人家自己去買的話他一定有他的訊息來源不管是看電視還是還是這一個他自己可以上網這個沒有但是也有很多是家屬幫忙去看的買來孝順自己的父母親可是我們現在看到李明的群組很多人都在問說他到底可不可以吃不可以"},{"start":3525.033,"end":3545.484,"text":"對,可是我的意思說有沒有有透過裡面的一些管道出去讓他們知道因為他們畢竟現在LINE裡面的群組裡面裡面事實上是會看這些東西的對,所以這個部分我們會透過多元的管道再把這個訊息散佈出去也就是說現在有這些的產品可疑的產品的話"},{"start":3546.417,"end":3550.759,"text":"現在這些東西我不知道衛福部有沒有跟蕭記會好好演繹一下去跟廠商爭取"},{"start":3563.171,"end":3588.852,"text":"一些退貨的條件降低然後從寬處理來方便退貨這個都有在處理可是我現在看到剛剛報告裡邊消保處這邊大概目前只有12件申訴案看起來案量非常的低不知道是不是有沒有特別的一些狀況民眾根本都還是不知道這些訊息是他們現在沒有去做辦退貨的我是請消保處"},{"start":3593.7,"end":3616.649,"text":"委員好跟委員報告一下我今天早上我們出門的時候又看了一下我們的申訴系統現在這個案子應該是18件就是今天早上18件也很低那跟委員報告一下因為通常民眾的訊息會先他會先先去釐清瞭解事實然後再透過這個一些管道然後去了解我們申訴系統所以我們會透過這個各地的消保官"},{"start":3617.029,"end":3617.809,"text":"再麻煩會後再提供相關你們的做法和數據"},{"start":3644.133,"end":3669.109,"text":"所以除了主動通報以外想問一下在這225件以外如果有使用到問題紅麴的商品如果沒有自動下架的話是不是就是衛福部要發動那個預防性下架的時機是不是就可以確保所有的東西都下架目前的話就是已經在發動包括說我們已經知道"},{"start":3670.389,"end":3692.462,"text":"從日本原料進來往下有52家的廠商他所製造出來的成品但是有一些是他製造出來不是直接就販售的成品而是他在製造的這種次級的成份的話那再提供給其他廠商那再去做出成品出來所以這樣加起來大概226種產品"},{"start":3695.484,"end":3719.075,"text":"那這些的訊息我們是都有這些通通要下架保齡事件齁我覺得現在訊息非常混亂連那個所有的小吃部這些都受到一些影響了齁所以我就不知道衛福部對於地方跟中央是不是應該趕快釐清真相否則的話一些事上是"},{"start":3719.69,"end":3743.943,"text":"移運者一個事實上是民眾他都會有很大的恐慌那本次案件在3月24號接獲通報然後在26號回溯3月19、3月21民眾有出現一些病徵從時序來看的話到3月26第一間餐廳才被停那可是都是一直都有民眾去用餐這一禮拜的時間很多人是暴露在這種風險當中那想問的是"},{"start":3750.014,"end":3776.103,"text":"能不能應該說清楚像衛福部臺北市政府3月24號就接獲新北市通報直到3月27才對業者勒令停業的行政處分有沒有延遲的問題事實上24號那食藥署跟臺北市同時就接到新北市的通報那臺北市他是有開始做食安的稽查"},{"start":3777.165,"end":3799.305,"text":"但是因為當時可能同仁並沒有把他跟這個死亡的原因連在一起所以認知上面並沒有特別是覺得說這個個案雖然有兩個一個是輕症另外一個是死亡但是這兩個那個死亡的原因是否跟這個食物中毒是有關"},{"start":3800.166,"end":3828.561,"text":"所以他到了現場的話主要是就是說做routine的這個食物中毒的一些採檢而已那到了3月26那我們就發現說這個通報的醫院越來越多那顯然這個事件就不單純而且通報的那個那個病症也是越來越嚴重所以3月26我們就再度找了這食藥食物"},{"start":3829.401,"end":3851.114,"text":"CDC再加上台北市我們再進去做稽查部長最後一個問就沒有標準品怎麼驗出米酵菌酸這次事件是不是就遇到這個問題媒體就一直很關心說那為什麼只有張記有標準品那這個病毒過去沒有在"},{"start":3852.007,"end":3871.335,"text":"臺灣出現過嗎?那這個是說明什麼樣的狀況?的確這個米酵菌酸是沒有在臺灣出現過那張熙之所以有這個標準品是當時105年的時候他們要建設實驗室那建設這個實驗室他們希望說做的是比較先進一點所以"},{"start":3873.103,"end":3886.678,"text":"大概可以查得到的那在就是說就盡量他們去收集結果這個105年這一個標準品一直都沒有用"},{"start":3887.836,"end":3888.717,"text":"接下來我們請陳金輝委員進行質詢"},{"start":3923.482,"end":3930.081,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員早安想要請薛部長還有吳署長好部長署長請"},{"start":3937.225,"end":3961.298,"text":"首先我們要跟第一線所有的稽查人員以及檢驗人員致敬大家知道這個週末他們已經幫我們完成35項實材的稽查還有35項實材的檢驗還沒有找出這次寶林茶室的風波到底是什麼原因而起可是我們還沒查出真相前就發現"},{"start":3962.85,"end":3986.363,"text":"已經在反映說不停的在招人還是招不滿北市衛生局雞茶客不會員業務很辛苦全年無休沒有蛋旺季過年值班連假都在值輪值流動率非常的高最慘公告5次都沒有人來所以根據媒體的統計目前舉例啦每一個地方都不夠人臺北市的離職率甚至高達36%想問一下"},{"start":3990.445,"end":4018.935,"text":"衛福部或食藥署有沒有針對這方面有所因應呢跟我們報告這個食品機場人員基本上他都是公務員那配屬在各個縣市那是由地方政府依照他們自己的組織編制來做規劃的好我們稍微看一下在105年以前其實呢你們都有編列地方的預算去"},{"start":4020.307,"end":4034.987,"text":"一注食品稽查量能那當然我有去查以前的企劃書你們是編列說比如說他要增加到一年15萬次、12萬次但現在這方面顯然是行不通了嘛所以"},{"start":4036.109,"end":4057.288,"text":"不可諱言啦,上次我們社安網討論了很久,像社工你就說每個縣市應該要多少人數才會充足,其實很明顯的現在這些稽查員檢驗人員就是食品的社工啊,他就是我們食品的社工,所以我們是不是應該要換一個方式"},{"start":4058.593,"end":4072.049,"text":"來增加他們的量能不然你再這樣繼續查下去可能離職率會從36%到50、60這樣我們要怎麼因應今年今年才過了四分之一可是我們全國的新聞幾乎都是食安相關"},{"start":4074.586,"end":4088.012,"text":"這部分的話當然是可以再來檢討因為現在光是用預算去處理的話那也不完全都能夠可能會反不及急所以是不是應該要建立新資的"},{"start":4089.592,"end":4115.188,"text":"調整制度呢?薪資調整這可能很難因為他是公務人員所以一定是按照他的職級根據公務人員的薪資表不會說稽查人員特別高所以現在是人力的擴充的部分人力擴充的部分的話有兩個問題第一個就是種原額那這個部分的話是人事總署在管理的"},{"start":4115.848,"end":4140.169,"text":"那第二個是這個稽查員他是屬於地方政府的所以地方政府也必須願意把這個緣合是擴充啦好地方政府很願意他們只是現在招不到人公告5次都還招不到人所以我希望中央也可以介入本席認為應該要重新編列預算來補助禁用稽查人力來提升我們的稽查量的"},{"start":4141.05,"end":4161.259,"text":"我們來看一下2016年蔡政府就職典禮的時候當時他考試一下馬政府所以他說我們的食品安全問題困擾著所有家庭臺灣是七成外食族因此我們特別要重視食品安全因為幾乎大家的"},{"start":4162.259,"end":4181.984,"text":"食品都是仰賴著外界結果今天來看似乎這個就職演講變成一個大預言家到今年去年我們都被雞蛋瘦肉精、蘇丹紅、小林製藥還有這次的這個米酵菌酸困擾至今"},{"start":4185.714,"end":4209.862,"text":"但很諷刺的我們來檢討一下這是你們自己公布的數據喔從105年馬政府卸任到112年呢我們的食品中毒人數是創歷史新高112年到了633個案例那當然今年113年我是難以想像的啦因為至今我們就已經累積了太多案例了"},{"start":4211.653,"end":4238.229,"text":"我已經幫賴準總統的致詞演講稿想好了還是一樣可以沿用2016年我們的食品安全問題困擾著所有的家庭我們來看一下您109年、110年照理說在COVID期間所有人是比較少外食嘛結果為什麼食品中毒的人數還是一年比一年飆升呢"},{"start":4242.141,"end":4267.642,"text":"我可能先釐清一下要先釐清一下這個到底是件數還是人數因為每一個食品中毒的案件它牽涉到的人數是差異非常大的對,所以像一個比較大的事件可能人數就會突然增加很多所以這個不知道到底是人數還是件數但是基本上我看起來比較像是件數啦好那件數的話"},{"start":4269.417,"end":4269.837,"text":"瞭解瞭解"},{"start":4289.496,"end":4308.994,"text":"這個行政院的食安辦公室每年花了我們不少預算但他這次的報告2.5頁裡面的內容大概就是關於每一個部門做了什麼然後在政令宣導請大家follow一下法規最後總結幾乎跟每一個部門的總結一樣就是食安五環很重要嘛"},{"start":4309.835,"end":4336.5,"text":"但全國人民比較沒有辦法接受的是我們3月13才剛開完食安匯報馬上又爆發了更大的食安問題而且是一般台灣人民比較難接受的中午出去吃個飯但在很短的時間內就過世了所以我會建議啦不知道針對這樣子的情形你們是不是需要再召開臨時的食安匯報呢"},{"start":4338.272,"end":4354.277,"text":"報告委員其實這個在衛福部這一個層級的話我們是有這樣子一個緊急處理的專案小組在進行當中至於食安會報因為他必須要召集各個部會那可能"},{"start":4355.616,"end":4357.938,"text":"本席有幾個小小的建議第一這是臺灣第一次在這樣先進的國家有人到百貨公司小吃街"},{"start":4378.994,"end":4405.568,"text":"吃完東西還到現在找不到原因過世所以我想這個盡快給全民一個答案很重要嘛再來稽查人力的不足不知道是不是你覺得拖到6、7月再開會就可以了還有本席辦公室已經接獲許許多多廠商的反應南部整條廠商他因為你找不到答案他現在什麼東西都賣不出去耶"},{"start":4406.508,"end":4435.231,"text":"大家打開根本不敢吃你只要想到新聞就不敢吃所以這一切一切的問題還有最後你的標準品是仰賴一個醫院他自己都不太記得好險有神隊有幫忙所以你講到說這個報告裡面提到說我們都知道我們一定要高效能用大數據高科技去做預警系統然後盤點國外警訊非法添加物列入邊境管理強化食安"},{"start":4437.396,"end":4465.554,"text":"這些食藥署編的預算跟計畫喔過去三四年加起來都是幾億幾億的我們來仔細的看你的工作計畫裡面的名詞重複性很高啊不是智能監控高風險目標智能監控及風險預警還有最後這邊強化大數據預測機制其危機應變你的計畫內容就是不同的字一直在堆疊重複"},{"start":4466.314,"end":4477.35,"text":"我想問一下從雞蛋到剛剛蘇丹紅到今天到底你這些工作計畫哪一個工作計畫我們有成功攔截到今天我們討論的這幾個項目呢當然現在會出問題就是沒有攔截到的"},{"start":4482.737,"end":4509.284,"text":"但是未來的話這個就會再進入到大數據裡面再去變成是一個風險因子那我們這一個模式的話本來就是靠過去的一些案例然後進入然後我們去把設法把它的這種風險的因子把它分析出來然後最往後那個是要加強就是說稽查的對象"},{"start":4511.305,"end":4536.592,"text":"好我再給部長看一眼這是你們的報告你們的報告就是寫盤點國際警訊非法添加5還有盤點國際基本上日本小林好或者是這個米校米校群酸這些就是在我們鄰近國家發生的事你沒有加入預請系統我們全國人民都覺得大家看了日本的新聞然後我們這邊才開始動作"},{"start":4538.493,"end":4567.253,"text":"所以我很希望你的這些智能監控高風險目標預警系統過去三四年已經花了一億多可不可以真正的發揮效果最後一個建議啦我們剛剛講到要不是有你本來上禮拜我們在這邊討論這件事你說還要一兩週才驗得出來因為你要跟進口商去買這個米酵菌酸的標準品後來是進口商自己想起來有人訂購過我們才到張機去拿的耶"},{"start":4568.053,"end":4588.613,"text":"對啊 剛提到你的這些預警系統我們附近的國家發生過其實我們早就應該把它列進去而且至少你要知道說我們自己沒有準備標準品沒關係可是台灣哪邊有嘛 對不對這個齁 我們附近鄰近的國家有發生食安問題的非常非常多啦"},{"start":4589.733,"end":4590.594,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員進行質詢"},{"start":4630.88,"end":4657.308,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們薛部長好 有請薛部長委員好薛部長好部長首先先問你毒物專家建議我們政府培養這個糖瘡、蒲伯克氏菌要避免米酵菌酸的生成想要請問部長這在臺灣是有技術的嗎可行性是有多少"},{"start":4658.188,"end":4679.122,"text":"目前我們正在檢驗的那對於這個米香菌酸這一個毒物的檢驗是正在進行當中但是培養的部分的話有一些還在進行因為培養需要時間比較長所以技術上面應該沒有太大的問題所以你們未來可能會做這件事情"},{"start":4680.289,"end":4696.851,"text":"現在正在做這件事好 謝謝那再來就是我們駐日代表謝長廷先生建議說由這個小林製藥部分由國內進口業者一併呈報給小林製藥集體跟藥廠去做這個交涉比較容易達成這個求償的目的想要請問部長怎麼看"},{"start":4698.692,"end":4708.184,"text":"這個部分也跟委員報告前天日本方面已經透由CDC的IHR國際衛生規範所設置的點"},{"start":4716.454,"end":4736.283,"text":"那日本那邊已經他們的IHR已經跟我們這邊的IHR聯繫那要求我們收集這一些可能的一些案例那的情況的話那回報給他們目前我們正在做所以代表就是衛福部會出面也當作一個統籌的單位好謝謝部長再來"},{"start":4739.022,"end":4758.897,"text":"部長我們那個日本的草莓農藥不斷的超標而我們邊境茶葉也多次攔下然後退運保障我們國人的食安我們在這裡要給予我們的這個邊境的茶葉人員給予肯定那我也看到食藥署在113年也就是今年針對世界各國輸入臺灣的食品跟相關的產品"},{"start":4760.034,"end":4778.3,"text":"加強的這個茶宴的品項是有一份清單共計是12項那其中日本的仙草莓也是加強茶宴對象請教部長會列在清單上是不是代表過去不管是不是農藥殘留或重金屬超標等等都是有許多的紀錄才會被列上這個專案清單"},{"start":4781.055,"end":4793.083,"text":"跟委員報告這情況大概是這樣同樣是草莓在國內種植的時候他也會用到某一些的農藥在日本也會用到某一些的農藥但是說農藥不一樣是等一下部長我只是想要問說這個列上這個清單"},{"start":4797.717,"end":4822.706,"text":"是不是代表過去的這個違規的紀錄比較多?被查驗到的紀錄比較多?對,這個不一定啦,就是說這個如果是加強查驗的品項的確是過去違規比較對嘛,就是嘛,好,OK那部長,但是你知道嗎?就是食藥署在今年的1月24日就有預告因為日本交流協會的申請要放寬過去禁用的幾種農藥"},{"start":4824.327,"end":4834.932,"text":"結果你們在3月29日公告發布也就在今天4月1號愚人節當天實施我是想問說這樣子是要把全國百姓當愚人嗎?部長"},{"start":4835.916,"end":4861.308,"text":"克凡派跟這個滅達勒這兩種農藥Codex的檢出標準就是零檢出就是不得檢出但是在日本交流協會提出申請後你們就趕緊開會讓他通過我想請問你們的通過科學依據何在因為過去你們都說Codex是國際上公認的標準但是曾幾何時為什麼這個日本交流協會好像比Codex還專業來要求我們就過"},{"start":4862.691,"end":4877.181,"text":"而且2022年的時候因為日本的進口草莓不斷被驗出農藥超標食藥署說因為涉及的牽涉的層級太高不會停止進口還被當時的這個部長陳時中說這樣的說法不恰當"},{"start":4880.455,"end":4905.395,"text":"然後他說只要被驗出農藥超標批次比較多就會開始逐批查驗嘛查到有超標就退運銷毀可是為什麼到了現在才不到才兩年的時間喔你們就退讓了部長這是要送給全國人民的愚人節大禮嗎你們同時要開放日本的農藥殘留標準又同時說要加強邊境查驗你不會覺得這樣子的邏輯很矛盾然後很混亂嗎"},{"start":4907.913,"end":4929.063,"text":"這個就是我剛剛跟委員報告的因為同樣的一個產品這個草莓在日本用的農藥跟在臺灣用的是不一樣因為臺灣沒有用日本所使用的農藥所以我們就沒有這個殘餘的這個標準但是他讓你們開放了所以他依法他就可以來申請"},{"start":4930.143,"end":4953.78,"text":"申請之後的話我們會經由這個專家會議來去做討論看看如果可以的話但是你們今天不就公告說這個事情就是對阿這已經討論過但是我想要提醒的是說我們食藥署究竟應該是要幫我們國人保障我們健康還是要幫日本賣草莓因為在Codex上面就是確切的說不得檢出喔那為什麼我們又要開放呢"},{"start":4954.86,"end":4972.207,"text":"這個你看在美國它是有的所以也不是完全都按照Codex但是Codex也是過去我們常常說這是最廣的標準所以我們也許Codex並沒有收集到部長我要在這裡說的事情是因為國人的健康不應該是變成是政治利益的籌碼來談判"},{"start":4974.208,"end":5002.93,"text":"所以CODEX既然它的標準尤其是我們國人對食安的標準也是很要求很嚴格為什麼我們要做這個時候而且匆匆忙忙就給它通過呢我認為這樣子是非常對國人的健康是非常不好的而且也是不負責任為國人把關健康的這個當然有我們也有參考其他國家的標準像剛剛委員在提到的客房派其實歐盟也有歐盟標準有我這個圖表上是很清楚沒有錯但是我說的就是CODEX他就是說不得檢出我們如果"},{"start":5004.051,"end":5028.795,"text":"我們CODAX並不是我們參考唯一的標準不是唯一的標準但是它卻是可以把關我們國人比較嚴格的標準我們是不是應該為了國人的健康如果是零檢出但是其他國家有標準我們就要考慮說那CODAX是否是因為它沒有收入那你們這樣子是不是也代表說有承受到一定的壓力所以你們必須這樣做因為我們本來也沒有說要開放"},{"start":5030.276,"end":5055.833,"text":"本來廠商就依法是可以來做申請申請之後我們本來就是依法部長我是想要提醒喔部長署長我還是想要提醒喔國人的健康應該是在所有的標準裡面應該是不容妥協的尤其是食安所以我想要告訴你從過去的經驗看起來你們就是感受到這種政治的壓力啊因為包含部長現在美國貿易代表署也點名臺灣"},{"start":5056.813,"end":5073.973,"text":"要求標示萊克多巴胺的殘留容許量是在不正確的暗示美豬產品有食安風險同時要繼續敦促臺灣全面開放對美牛及其產品的市場甚至還有希望我們把校園禁用基改食品的這個法律條文拿掉"},{"start":5075.017,"end":5097.775,"text":"所以我想問對於這份報告美國貿易代表署的這份報告您有什麼態度而且部長有被AIT關切過這個議題嗎第一個你剛剛問的我沒有被關切到這個第二個這個可能有問題這一個報導因為我們國內從來沒有去規定來即的標示我們沒有這一個"},{"start":5098.655,"end":5107.255,"text":"是對啊啊所以為什麼現在因為現在我們提案希望來即一定要標示上去啊我們就沒有啊現在沒有但是沒有的話美國為什麼會訴說要廢除"},{"start":5112.139,"end":5127.085,"text":"所以我想問部長對這件事情的態度是什麼也是一樣是不是要站在國人的健康立場上面做最嚴格的把關這個本來就是按照這個國際上的一個通例然後就是我們國內的這樣子的一個規範來進行"},{"start":5131.187,"end":5153.133,"text":"所以我要告訴部長我覺得面對這樣子的國外的這個對於健康的施壓對於這樣子的貿易的施壓我們不能夠讓步好不好健康無價我們人民的健康不應該是被當成談判的首碼但是我們政府應該也要強烈的表達我們的立場對內積極強化食安的把關才可以贏得我們國人的信任那部長再來"},{"start":5156.357,"end":5180.469,"text":"2019年的時候修正過這個通過過食安法明定散布食安謠言可以罰百萬請教部長從寶林市食安事件開始到現在有沒有人在造謠部長因為這一次事件也已經造成兩人死亡國人非常擔憂而王必勝次長也速度開了記者會也包含透過臉書管道呼籲澄清希望不要造成國人恐慌"},{"start":5181.249,"end":5200.281,"text":"而且部長因為第一例是在新北就醫所以新北市政府3月24日當天通報了中央跟臺北市政府臺北市政府也馬上稽查我想臺北跟中央都是同步掌握也是符合SOP那雙北政府也沒有人說因此就說中央當天沒有派人檢驗所以慢半拍對吧"},{"start":5201.363,"end":5221.341,"text":"那部長當中央地方都忙著處理寶林的這個食安事件而且根本沒有慢半拍的時候卻有人造謠謊稱衛福部是慢了兩天到3月26號11點18分才接受到北市府的通報請問部長可以這樣子污名化盡忠職守的基層人員嗎這樣的造謠行為會不會因為身份的關係可以豁免"},{"start":5223.445,"end":5248.592,"text":"我想是否造謠這個還有待再去釐清不過整個的事情的一個前後的話大概都已經前後的這些時序的話是沒錯都已經公開對所以我沒有要怪部長我只想要說是否有改進的地方這個都可以進一步來做檢討我想要提醒的就是我們也看到食安急查人員剛剛我們陳吉輝委員有提到爆離職草"},{"start":5250.072,"end":5269.827,"text":"而且包含直轄市臺北的稽查科都有36%的人員不作更遑論其他的縣市而我們國人對於食安的要求期待甚高所以前面那兩題從國外來的也是一樣的意思因為我們國人對食安要求是很高標準而且我們也應該負責任的政府也應該積極而且更高標準的為他們把關"},{"start":5271.061,"end":5286.178,"text":"所以國人對於這個所以包含現在辛苦這些稽查人員之外各別的政治人物打擊我們稽查人員的士氣就會讓人家感覺有一句話叫做前線吃緊了後線緊吃所以我是想要告訴大家的事情是"},{"start":5288.41,"end":5308.912,"text":"我們期待衛福部也能夠剛剛您講的很清楚時序都很清楚希望個別某些的執政黨立委不要到處散播謠言畢竟人民關心的應該是食品的安全而不是個人的政治利益這部分到這裡其實我還有一題主席我可以再問一下嗎時間差不多好最後問問進述"},{"start":5310.034,"end":5323.883,"text":"就是在2019年的時候有修正一個毒性跟關注化學物質管理法的第47條要明定這可能要跟這個我們的化學署長跟我們許主任有關"},{"start":5325.253,"end":5346.534,"text":"明定說要成立毒物及化學物質管理基金我看到這個東西因為現在很久沒有這件事情到現在都沒有成立那因為這件事情又涉及到這種毒物而且這也是第一這個食安的源頭的管理喔所以我想要提醒你們這件事情現在進度到底到哪裡你們為什麼被卡了這麼久都沒有動作"},{"start":5348.227,"end":5371.808,"text":"報告委員我們基金的成立是在108年修法的時候把它放到法規裡面去那其實我們法公佈之後我們也積極在進行基金的籌備工作在103年我們也開始做這個跟業界的溝通但是很不巧是那時候有COVID-19的發生所以我們那個時候就先緩下來那麼最近我們有開始再來跟業界溝通來成立這個基金"},{"start":5372.008,"end":5392.183,"text":"對所以我要告訴你已經拖了5年多這就是因做而未做尤其是到現在這樣子的這個事件發生我想這件事情也顯得格外的重要我要提醒你們這件事情要趕快進行好謝謝好謝謝委員好我們謝謝廖偉祥委員的諮詢接下來請王育明委員進行諮詢"},{"start":5405.849,"end":5416.505,"text":"請王月明委員好 謝謝主席我們是不是請薛部長有請薛部長還有經濟部商業發展所副署長一起上來委員好"},{"start":5418.789,"end":5443.066,"text":"部長好部長有關於寶林茶室的這個中毒事件喔到目前為止追查不出這個真正的來源是什麼那現在到底是遇到了什麼樣的困難跟問題喔部長可不可以承諾國人你大概多久可以追查出這個整個事情的脈絡因為現在真的大家都很焦慮剛剛有委員說大家最近都不敢吃粿仔條"},{"start":5443.987,"end":5451.328,"text":"但是這到底整個事件發生的原因現在回去溯源到底還要花多久時間可以溯源出來"},{"start":5453.004,"end":5475.661,"text":"跟委員報告目前的話就是一樣一樣的把它排除掉這個原因把它排除掉但是到現在為止的話我們還是鎖定就是說只有在這一家裡面而且共同這一些病患他共同有實用的就是果條"},{"start":5478.364,"end":5486.623,"text":"所以原因應該還是在這裡至於說他怎麼樣去發聲的這個要調查那這個調查不是那麼容易啦"},{"start":5487.023,"end":5513.866,"text":"那你預計要多久?這個真相可以水落石起?沒有辦法給時間那請問你們現在調查的速度你們是多麼的積極?有多麼的組成一個專家或是獨務小組還有鑑定小組?你們是用什麼樣的速度來做這件事情?目前大概有兩個方面一方面的話是檢調司法調查他所調查的就是有可疑的這些人"},{"start":5514.266,"end":5541.902,"text":"是不是犯罪的部分嗎那食物的部分呢那食物的部分的話我們是一直就是說目前的話就已經收集的包括是在寶林茶室的這一家裡面所收到的剩餘的這些檢體我們都已經全部都已經驗完了那並沒有發現說有這個米酵菌酸沒有這個東西那另外的話就是在源頭的供應商大阪城"},{"start":5542.862,"end":5557.284,"text":"那邊收集到的也沒有那在饒河街那邊的兩個病人去驗血的結果也沒有所以目前還是仍然是在這個寶林茶室就是說A13的這裡"},{"start":5558.685,"end":5580.227,"text":"至於說這中間的話怎麼樣去產生的這個還是如同我剛剛講就是說要進一步的調查但是從這樣子的一個現象來看的話其實民眾也不必太過恐慌因為同樣的這種粿仔條它並不是很少見的其實是很常見的一個食材"},{"start":5581.849,"end":5588.135,"text":"所以民眾可以安心吃嗎?學校也可以不用進嗎?學校也可以不用進嗎?民眾可以安心吃嗎?在原因還沒有查出來之前"},{"start":5601.799,"end":5627.764,"text":"大致上並不會有就是說並不是有那麼風險所以部長覺得風險不高因為現在民眾真的是非常焦慮我希望這個衛福部還是必須在最快的時間去查出來到底是什麼原因所造成的第二個就是這一次我們看到在百貨商場的監理機制是出現問題的這一種已經快要到期的就是他結束營業但是他的保險竟然沒有續保這個部分經濟部"},{"start":5629.004,"end":5658.219,"text":"這個商業發展署這一塊是屬於你們應該去管理的範圍嗎跟委員報告百貨商場保險的部分百貨商場的保險他目前的話大概是各地方政府如果他有依消費者保護法有定這種特定消費場所的保險的話他會依各地方政府的法規去做保險那有關於餐飲業的部分這個部分其實食安法裡面有要求要投保就是產品責任保險那這一塊的話就是依食安法的部分來的"},{"start":5658.379,"end":5673.179,"text":"那主管機關是誰?是你們還是衛福部?食安法的部分是衛福部所以還是衛福部管?管政大?好來那我就要問那個部長因為這次我們看到在這家百貨公司裡面有公共責任選跟產品責任選"},{"start":5673.72,"end":5701.879,"text":"那他現在產品責任險的部分他就是沒有續保那未來這個整個衛福部應該怎麼樣去確保就是這一些食品業者他在這個產品責任險的部分應保都一定要加保而沒有這種漏網之魚這一次臺北市去稽查也發現其中還有別家的這個業者就是在不同的百貨公司也一樣應該保這個保險但是沒有保險這塊你們未來要怎麼管理"},{"start":5702.98,"end":5723.138,"text":"這一個部分的話當然依法是可以罰三百萬如果說應該加保而沒有應該投保而沒有投保的不過有關於公共意外險的這一個部分的話可能就不是衛福部這邊的你們是產品責任險嗎?我們是產品責任險但是產品責任險一定都要保嗎?對"},{"start":5724.139,"end":5741.375,"text":"那所以說未來這部分的話我已經有交代我們食藥署那在他的非登不可的這個系統裡面要加上這個產品責任選的什麼時候到期然後我們希望這個系統能夠在"},{"start":5742.176,"end":5745.139,"text":"我希望這個將來應該是要雙軌制一個就是說你們自己的這個可以透過這個建制的系統就知道說他什麼時候到期而且有警示這個比照"},{"start":5762.015,"end":5789.175,"text":"汽車強制責任險的一樣就是要做到這樣的一個程度第二個就是百貨公司的督導程度我們發現百貨公司裡面他收業者這一個收這個租金抽成都很高都一到兩成但是好像都不關他的事在這裡面就是出了事情業者也是你引進來的那你應該也要負起相對的這個督導的責任如果百貨公司幫助你們去做行政管理的話事實上他是可以做得到的"},{"start":5789.935,"end":5814.995,"text":"他每一個櫃位都要跟他簽約每一個櫃位他每天都有百貨公司的人都可以去巡檢那對於這一種即將要到期的他其實也知道老早就知道誰要撤櫃了要換人了所以我希望可以去強化這個百貨公司跟商場的這些管理者的責任這個之後你們再去研議應該要怎麼做另外一個比較重要的是那個小林紅麴的這一個部分就是小林製藥進來的這個紅麴"},{"start":5817.677,"end":5845.158,"text":"我要問一下你現在說你有226種產品下架那是不是市面上的現在所有的紅麴產品都沒有問題現在是只有用到這個小林紅麴的這個原料的才需要因為目前跟我們報告日本那邊仍然沒有確定到底是什麼東西他們不是說是染毛青霉酸嗎那只是一個推測但目前的話還不知道成分是什麼對"},{"start":5847.28,"end":5851.384,"text":"我在想我們臺灣也有很多其他的紅麴產品包括今天也有邀請臺酒到現場來臺酒也有生產紅麴產品那我們怎麼確保日本現在是讓我們視為他們在藥品食安方面是相對嚴格的國家如果那個紅麴產品出了這個問題我要問部長的是你怎麼確保包括我們臺灣像臺酒還有我們其他廠牌的"},{"start":5871.462,"end":5880.013,"text":"沒有用到小林製藥原料你怎麼確保我們自己他從其他原料的他沒有產生同樣的問題他都是安全的你們有進一步做什麼檢測嗎"},{"start":5881.964,"end":5905.939,"text":"目前來講的話已知的可能會有傷人體然後是可能存在於紅麴產品裡面的我們都有要求他們要上市前就要做檢驗那平常的時候也可以自我檢驗自主檢驗那這中間比較有名的叫菊梅樹但這次不是菊梅樹這次看起來不是"},{"start":5907.455,"end":5925.541,"text":"所以我的問題就在這邊嘛就是說日本那邊出現的是一個未知的我剛剛說可能是軟毛青霉酸你說還沒有確定嗎那如果日方是這樣子的話我們怎麼確保我們臺灣的這些產品都是安全的就用公共衛生的方式先去做先去做分析啦"},{"start":5926.061,"end":5954.192,"text":"那也就是說如果這一個國內國人使用這一個紅麴的相關的產品的話不管他是日本來的還是台灣自己製造的那看看有沒有這一些不是的一些通報那你現在的18件有是來自其他產品的嗎還是通通都是小林製藥的目前是有6件6件的通報是跟剛剛蕭寶書說18件"},{"start":5957.225,"end":5973.879,"text":"那是申訴啦喔申訴那你們不兩的是六件那六件通通都是小林製藥的還是有來自別的廠牌都跟這一個有關跟小林製藥的是完全有關的對就是他的原料到國內然後再去做製造的都跟這個有關"},{"start":5974.6,"end":5992.328,"text":"好那這一次其實有民眾他就抱怨說其實他是選小綠人標章但小綠人標章依然喜勝小綠人標章是我們自己這個食藥署去核發的健康食品而且你現在還兩類一種是個案認證一種是規格標章審查你這次紅麴的個案認證有九家這九家有一家還是出了問題那規格"},{"start":6000.271,"end":6000.291,"text":"蘇長你說"},{"start":6021.926,"end":6039.725,"text":"報告委員我們確實是有雙軌的制度那有一軌就是他要檢據所有的一些他檢驗的就是個案審查嗎對那如果是第二軌的他像精油那個魚油跟紅麴就是屬於他的規格如果能夠符合之前已經有通過的其實就可以審定"},{"start":6040.626,"end":6056.839,"text":"所以你這一次下架的226種產品多數其實都是屬於書審嘛規格標章審查嘛都不是個案審查但是業者一樣要做我們相關規格裡面所要求的他必須要做的檢驗他們一樣要執行但像這樣子民眾就說我都專門買小綠人了結果還是出問題"},{"start":6059.901,"end":6086.927,"text":"有一個個案說他這樣子還是是要到洗腎的情況那這種情況怎麼辦他要怎麼賠償另外一個我要問你是賠償的問題剛剛提到說統一都是跟小林製藥賠償那有一些他是進原料進來在臺灣生產重新製造的這個臺灣的廠商都不用負責嗎這就要回到消保法的規定了那這個有一些是會有連帶責任的那個消保處處長你上來一下"},{"start":6089.773,"end":6114.913,"text":"因為我覺得這樣是有點不合理就是說所有發生他買來吃結果他吃了有問題現在你說要等這個日本那邊但是其實有一些他不是直接進口藥品進來他是原料進來他自己再變成產品的這一類他不能跟臺灣求償嗎臺灣的廠商求償嗎跟委員報告在我們的消保法裡面就是製造商跟輸入商是負同樣的責任的那經銷商也是一樣要針對他們的這個"},{"start":6117.234,"end":6143.119,"text":"就是經銷的一些成果也要跟這個製造商負相同的責任所以臺灣的廠商應該要負責嘛那我們的消費者怎麼跟臺灣的廠商求廠這是我們現在機制是什麼我們政府可以協助他們做什麼提供幫忙就是說如果消費者對這個部分有問題可以我們申訴其實有三個管道可以直接跟企業經營者也可以跟這個消保團體也可以跟我們的地方政府的消福中心就是消保官他們那邊會處理還有主管機關那如果他們"},{"start":6143.559,"end":6143.579,"text":"陸陸續續還會有"},{"start":6172.628,"end":6184.217,"text":"因為紅麴相關的產品在臺灣打的廣告很大然後有一些這個高血脂問題的人他可能都希望吃這個他以為是吃了很健康結果現在成分有問題變成他的腎功能開始出現問題所以我要求衛福部跟消保署應該是要用一個專案"},{"start":6190.982,"end":6207.157,"text":"然後好好的來受理這一些受害者他的陳情而且必須協助他整個過程他的這個整個法律訴訟的過程應該政府中央政府要責任不是都是這個地方政府中央跟地方政府要作為我們這一些受害的消費者最大的後盾可以嗎"},{"start":6208.686,"end":6208.706,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":6246.633,"end":6268.351,"text":"好 我們現在請蘇清泉委員進行質詢好 謝謝 謝謝主席我請部長部長辛苦了好 請薛部長還有我們請我們請我們機關署副署長"},{"start":6279.031,"end":6295.508,"text":"這個寶林茶室的事情我們用醫生的角度來看已經灰灰洋洋已經好幾天了那我現在要問疾管署到底到底是哪一個東西引起這一次那麼嚴重的中毒事件"},{"start":6298.095,"end":6310.321,"text":"應該你講的什麼米酵素酸啦或者是佐料啦或者是添加物啦因為有人說吃那個調味品的時候很苦啦現在大家一頭霧水"},{"start":6312.472,"end":6335.805,"text":"到底現在是怎麼樣跟委員報告 疾管署在這個事件的角色是協助做人體檢體這邊的收集檢驗那我們也會跟食藥署一起去做環境的稽查那針對人這邊的追蹤也是由我們負責所以食材這邊目前因為都檢驗陰性還需要再進一步的調查那在人體這邊是已經檢驗14例都是陽性都是米酵菌酸"},{"start":6337.523,"end":6353.9,"text":"那這個米酵菌酸是一個細菌的外毒素嘛外毒素那就是這個這個伯克霍爾加這個這個組的裡面一兩種菌類會產生那是一個外毒素是蛋白質的"},{"start":6355.495,"end":6383.905,"text":"那現在有人說這個東西就是從國外飄進來的部長你也覺得這種講法是很荒唐的吧可能性不高啦一天到晚甩鍋碰到事情就甩鍋甩給什麼墨山、鼻刻、中國乾脆你講從日本飄過來就好了啦韓國、歐北共好在跟日本給我卡了一個紅麴讓我們可以搖一搖我覺得啦這些東西齁"},{"start":6385.677,"end":6405.555,"text":"他的標準品我建議我們衛福部部長還有食藥署很重要的就是要常常去掃描全世界到底發生什麼特殊的案子啦或者是一些群聚的啦那些東西的檢查品、標準品、對照品都要必備啦署長,這樣做得到嗎"},{"start":6412.709,"end":6424.245,"text":"報告委員像相關這個我們都會做對那目前其實我們也都儲備了相當多的一些標準品你的裝機都為了要實驗室都進了一堆人家現在有7000多種的標準品單單這個沒有"},{"start":6427.908,"end":6451.955,"text":"這個沒有啦,從來沒有發生過而且在全世界也是少見的嘛那你那個study出來的一些文獻也相當有限也不是那麼多啦我也跟大家報告我這個月議事前那個理事長所以我看到你議事說要被告我又說重症第一線的我看了真的是沒有啦,他已經澄清了啦並沒有這樣子,媒體誤導啦"},{"start":6453.692,"end":6470.672,"text":"所以這些集中症的醫師第一線的這樣子被搞齁我看他們現在這兩天陳情跟我講的都說不然他現在要捐給別人委員應該用你的高度來跟媒體說不好給別人報告"},{"start":6473.732,"end":6492.098,"text":"對 醫生要捐美人要拒絕病人這完了 對不對再來做重症的醫師醫院有沒有保護他我看他們醫院也沒有講話醫院的院長要打屁股部長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6493.379,"end":6507.013,"text":"對,所以我剛剛講了這個當事人都出來否認了他沒有說要告醫師、告醫院並沒有這麼回事所以這是媒體誤導所以第一個要苛責的、要責備的應該是媒體"},{"start":6508.775,"end":6527.865,"text":"沒有好好去查證然後就散佈這樣子的訊息這種訊息其實非常傷因為整個的醫療會覺得整個士氣對,士氣受打擊而且會有出現防衛性醫療的可能性叫派出力的都把我拔回去"},{"start":6529.586,"end":6536.189,"text":"這個對我們的那個病人是非常不利的所以不但是就是說我們去應該對媒體這樣譴責其實全民都應該譴責這個媒體"},{"start":6540.751,"end":6562.786,"text":"這個不時的報導部長這樣講得非常好也順便一起幫我們做第一線重症的醫師跟他們打打氣我這裡一定要特別提出來要捍衛他們的權益不要再去打擊醫護人員我跟你講這個什麼米酵菌酸我做醫生做我們還做幾年了要省了"},{"start":6563.649,"end":6585.349,"text":"我這輩子第一次聽到第一次聽到第一次聽到我就說這是黑白說的福壯八道的這種這種這種這種外讀術所以查清楚之前大家都不要亂甩鍋查清楚之前大家都冷靜看倒是我我要這裡要呼籲啦你衛部也要呼籲啦"},{"start":6586.23,"end":6603.544,"text":"這種天氣那麼炎熱齁,所有的東西、食材該冷藏要冷藏,該冷凍要冷凍,該丟棄要丟棄那這些佐料啊、配製品、獨門、配方啊放在室溫上三十幾度,一天、兩天、三天那個會滋長滋養、滋長細菌我才不相信呢"},{"start":6604.985,"end":6633.445,"text":"所以這部分的話我因為天氣也正在變所以我會請食藥署在未來的這一個衛生稽查的部分的那些要去查的這些項目的話可能要再嚴格一點因為所有因為現在外食組實在是很多所有的這一些這個飲食場所的話的衛生要求應該還要更升級尤其以這一次的事件來看"},{"start":6634.249,"end":6657.75,"text":"因為臺灣這醫療就是血汗、壓榨然後大家都過勞那在這種高壓的情況下然後出這個事就大家還在罵我覺得部長你自己也是臨床醫師、婦產科醫生我是覺得你要隨時要捍衛要打打氣好不好我們要講有力嗎?有"},{"start":6659.611,"end":6679.846,"text":"再來,最重要、奇怪的這間公司、這間茶室本身去保險的已經過去了然後這個收購的還有那個二手的房東什麼什麼什麼什麼這個都有保公公責任險吧那這個東西也是食藥署在管嗎"},{"start":6681.669,"end":6699.987,"text":"他有兩個部分保險一個是安全這個場所安全的責任險另外一個是產品的責任險產品責任險的部分的話是定在食安法裡面所以衛福部會管到這一塊阿連那個保險端有沒有也你要管喔"},{"start":6701.621,"end":6704.543,"text":"目前的話是我們的衛生稽查人員去做稽查的時候會要求看這個保單是否還是有效"},{"start":6716.656,"end":6737.647,"text":"那這一次日本的這個案子齁他那個東西有辦成品然後有都做成成品然後送到台灣來台灣就加工然後又產就做出來第二個加工品出來販賣那現在日本那邊到底我看日本的食藥署可能就輸爛囉輸爛我看他們年齡不太好我感覺啦"},{"start":6745.492,"end":6759.127,"text":"我看他也是又慢然後環境又差然後那個小林製藥開個董事會要開好久齁出事情了還不曉得怎麼善後那到底我們這邊怎麼球場有沒有人過世"},{"start":6761.957,"end":6777.302,"text":"目前是沒有在日本那邊好像是有五位有五個死亡那日本那邊也有跟我們這邊做了聯繫請我們把這個我們的有一些個案那通知了"},{"start":6777.882,"end":6801.531,"text":"那把他的狀況提供給他們這個是在前兩天才收到的一個訊息那國內的這部分的話第一個產品如果有風險的這些產品大概都已經下架就是說也要求說回收啦這些公司來做回收那進口不管是產品或原料都暫停都"},{"start":6802.972,"end":6816.732,"text":"不接受這個申請進口所以大概現在先擋住在這裡那至於後續的有這種使用相關的產品而有症狀的這些的話那麼陸續就收集這個個案"},{"start":6820.36,"end":6834.03,"text":"這種這種健康食品的原料齁都是長期侵犯你的肝腎功能這個沒有應該到最後出事你要說直接相關齁在法律上真的非常難直接相關就是"},{"start":6836.271,"end":6862.271,"text":"所以可能在用的都是消保法無過失責就舉證的就是在企業經營小保法這10年來幫我們集體求償我看沒有一件案件漂亮的要不然都不了了之不一定啦要看個案這個也很難舉證說到底受傷CCR什麼聖功能等等受傷多少那個都很難量化的"},{"start":6863.233,"end":6881.539,"text":"但是這個消保法舉證責任是廠商要舉證我做的產品不會印去這樣這很難的啦好最後我還是要講食藥署還有衛生部你們全世界在發生這種食安事件啊你要隨時掃描重大的有可能我們這邊會發生啊"},{"start":6882.719,"end":6905.007,"text":"所以這個該準備的試劑啦比醉瓶啦什麼什麼什麼什麼G-max什麼等等這一些東西的東西都要隨時準備好了不然像這樣出事情找不到東西然後這邊趕著召集這樣這樣食藥署也是很為難啦所以一定要這種錢不能省不能省好不好"},{"start":6906.447,"end":6909.189,"text":"等一下劉建國委員質詢結束後休息5分鐘現在請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":6936.299,"end":6936.76,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":6947.361,"end":6960.209,"text":"部長這幾天的這個米酵菌酸的這個中毒事件其實基層很多人很擔心尤其是每次這個大家最喜歡吃的粿仔條、板條粿仔條大家知不知道傳統市場原本在賣麵的在賣麵的在那個賣"},{"start":6966.953,"end":6970.636,"text":"我們目前到目前為止也還沒有很確定說是什麼樣的東西造成這個中毒嗎"},{"start":6987.046,"end":7006.768,"text":"是已經很能確定是因為果條是因為果條的關係嗎是已經確定了嗎大概是BK也就是說米消菌酸是一個主要的重引起中毒的物質是這個相對是可以確定了是那他是來自於哪"},{"start":7007.108,"end":7030.494,"text":"但是來自哪裡的話第一個從這些有症狀的個案那把它綜合去做分析它的共同點就是有吃果條所以大概來源就是這個至於說這一些果條到底是經過什麼樣的程序那產生這個米酵菌酸這個目前還不知道"},{"start":7030.834,"end":7045.617,"text":"是所以大概現在調查的重點會是在這個地方那也是檢調他們現在進行調查的一個重點是他想要想要把這個事情釐清就是說那個原料一百的料啊到底"},{"start":7047.019,"end":7063.474,"text":"這廚師有做什麼操作然後他的保存到底又是什麼樣子等等這些必須要把它調查清楚也許才比較有可能推測出來說那到底這個事件怎麼來的"},{"start":7064.255,"end":7078.896,"text":"所以我們知道說要滿足這個毒素的生成可能有幾個條件就第一個你可能要有這個唐昌浦伯克氏菌這個菌株那也要它適合的這個環境才有辦法"},{"start":7080.097,"end":7109.017,"text":"來就是繁殖然後產生這個米酵菌酸那我想請教部長就是說以我們目前所有可能在我們可以見的國人的飲食當中其實我們可以在一些環境或者是烹調的這個環境當中都有可能都有可能會產生這樣的一個這個利於這個菌種的一個生成那我想請教就是說怎麼樣去避免"},{"start":7111.178,"end":7125.911,"text":"其實這個細菌能夠產生米酵菌酸這個物質是在很多條件之下才會有所以要怎麼去避免"},{"start":7126.731,"end":7143.26,"text":"因為現在大家是很擔心看到麵現在是甚至有的連麵都不太敢吃就是說先動一陣也好先不要吃一陣所以我覺得真的要趕快釐清或者是要怎麼讓我們的民眾怎麼知道說那怎麼去預防或怎麼去避免"},{"start":7143.888,"end":7161.584,"text":"那從現在至少到目前調查的結果第一個就是說來源的這個果粉它的來源廠商那邊的檢驗通通都是沒有米酵菌酸所以這一個先排除說大規模的在來源的部分的話有這個東西"},{"start":7162.785,"end":7179.786,"text":"那所以它會產生米酵菌酸的話應該是這一些果粉到了這個寶林茶室之後它的操作過程才產生的大概目前第一個是可以這樣做一個推測所以一般的果粉可能就不用太過緊張不過"},{"start":7182.409,"end":7203.6,"text":"他這個到底怎麼樣去操作當然從研究上面有一些嘛比如說他可能需要跟有一些是椰子啦玉米啦等等這些比較容易有果粉的成分裡面的確也有他的澱粉有可能是玉米啦所以跟米到底有沒有關係"},{"start":7205.709,"end":7233.026,"text":"關聯性可能不大不過因為果粉裡面也有用到再來米粉再來米粉也有用到玉米粉也有用到小麥澱粉也有用到所以這一些都有用到但是並不表示說有這些混在一起的話就一定會產生所以到底還有中間有什麼樣的一個操作以及保存很重要是保存這個保存條件因為從這個"},{"start":7235.928,"end":7258.431,"text":"這個所謂的糖酸薄克斯菌要產生米酵菌酸通常會是在溫度是22到33度所以一般的其實一般臺灣國人在那個餐廳也好或者可能在一般的那個小吃他的烹調的或者是他在工作的這個場域可能就是這一個溫度啊"},{"start":7259.63,"end":7283.304,"text":"但是有一個是中性的PH值,所以如果產生、產業減的話就比較不容易當然這樣看起來好像還是條件還是蠻寬鬆的那如果說只有符合這樣子的條件就可以產生的話我相信就國內不會只有這樣子一件,所以應該還有其他的"},{"start":7283.584,"end":7309.335,"text":"所以我覺得應該還有其他的原因應該把這個原因趕快找出來是不是溫度的忽高忽低也比較容易產生這些目前就是在調查這個好我們希望說趕快盡快對因為國人可能對於這個是真的還蠻擔心的那尤其這個賣果條的賣那個板條過了條大家怕就不敢吃"},{"start":7311.176,"end":7331.037,"text":"對所以我們希望說能夠盡速盡速把它釐清希望盡速可以是好那我想請教就是說那個農業部農糧署他們有特別提到就是說米酵菌酸他這個這個應該是可以要把它證明就是說野毒亞型那是不是這個跟"},{"start":7332.418,"end":7351.156,"text":"跟米可能沒有什麼太大的關聯所以我不知道衛福部是不是可能針對這部分來做一個釐清我們不會反對因為到底當時所謂米酵菌酸這個翻譯是從哪裡引進來的也不清楚因為你要從它的英文的原名"},{"start":7353.858,"end":7379.168,"text":"所以米酵菌酸是誰?你不知道為什麼一開始就講米酵菌酸?所以你們也就一直沿用就是說一開始說米酵菌酸可能從上上禮拜開始就一直講說是米酵菌酸因為可能就在文獻上面有這樣子的一個翻譯所以我們就把它引用進來就直接翻"},{"start":7379.728,"end":7403.006,"text":"那跟米也沒有太大的直接關聯所以其實農糧署對於這一次的他們是希望說是不是可以證明我們要請專家委員會去討論一下因為其實很多民眾看到說米酵菌酸那是不是跟米去製作的這個食物有關所以大家會擔心那國人吃米"},{"start":7403.726,"end":7428.076,"text":"真的也是米飯米製品真的是非常的多那也不希望說因為這樣子然後造成這個一些影響那接下來就是我希望就是說能夠盡速把這個原因釐清好原因釐清之後未來怎麼去預防預防其實我覺得也很重要既然如果說這個菌或者是產生這個米酵菌酸已經在這個"},{"start":7429.918,"end":7448.573,"text":"臺北這一家保林茶室已經有那未來會不會也有可能如果這個環境也是適合的話是不是這個菌也是開始會繁殖那在臺灣就這樣子這個生存下來所以我覺得這是很可怕的事情那我們希望說真的要盡速去把它釐清"},{"start":7449.693,"end":7471.279,"text":"一方面是釐清這個確確的原因但是也跟我們報告這個原因的調查是否可以真的是那麼精確的把它查出來這個也不一定但是至少有兩件事情要去處理第一個就是一般的像這種果條這樣子的產品的保存要怎麼樣保存"},{"start":7472.079,"end":7486.3,"text":"可能要有一個指引這個我們會來做其實也不只是果條其實像現在天氣熱了很多這些食品要怎麼保存是一個比較妥善的方法這個我們會來做"},{"start":7487.822,"end":7503.788,"text":"那第二個的話就是說這些像這種火條這樣子的一個特殊的東西在餐飲店裡面應該他的SOP是怎麼樣保存跟操作這些注意的事項應該也要有"},{"start":7505.569,"end":7516.599,"text":"有所依詢,讓這些餐飲業者能夠...所以我們希望你們趕快把它定下來然後讓這些業者有一個依詢另外部長最後幾分...這個最後30秒時間我想請教就是說這個有關我們鄰近國家這個中國這邊有這個白日渴"},{"start":7524.286,"end":7536.654,"text":"那我想請教就是說針對這個臨近國家有這個百日渴的這個案例已經3萬多例啦那我想請教臺灣目前的這個狀況是怎樣"},{"start":7538.34,"end":7563.51,"text":"目前是兩例那其實中國跟臺灣有點不太一樣因為我們的疫苗打的跟中國不太一樣我們會在入學之前入學前會多打一劑所以大概會比較有保護所以也沒有說有病例上升的那種狀況目前沒有好 謝謝"},{"start":7569.059,"end":7572.501,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢好 謝謝主席 有請部長跟署長好 部長、署長請"},{"start":7589.315,"end":7612.521,"text":"部長我們上個禮拜齁週四就在這邊那有特別針對這個寶林茶室的保險問題有請教過部長嘛齁那依據食安法13條這個寶林茶室應該要保險這個食品及公共意外責任險但是我們知道就去年10月就過期嘛齁所以也沒有續保現在臺北衛生特別是衛生局有確定要針對這塊保險來開罰200萬對他已經罰了對他已經罰了"},{"start":7618.143,"end":7636.337,"text":"那划得到嗎?不曉得啦後面的跟部長討論的事情部長我們再來double check啦其實上週還在猜啦是不是因為這個原本A13這個寶林茶室藥生液體就要結束這個這個這個策略嘛所以才會便宜行事"},{"start":7637.017,"end":7665.336,"text":"可能保單到期後就沒有再續約導致今天這個消費者可能未來會求償無門的窘境上禮拜四我就擔心這個事情現在台北市政府自己再去做這樣的一個稽查不只是原擺這一家的分店沒有如老河店、松山店、台北車站的保險也都因為全部欠匯餵繳而喪失保約這應該你查的嘛對不對"},{"start":7668.398,"end":7688.076,"text":"那現在臺北市政府才要一一的針對這些沒有保險的店面開罰你敢不敢說我這很憤怒很離譜的啦不止這樣啦我想我們為什麼連這個一個基本的保險而且它有法律的規範第13條怎麼連一個預警機制都沒有這其一啦那其二"},{"start":7688.957,"end":7708.97,"text":"其實這一次的食物中毒事件之後我覺得臺北市政府衛生局的同仁大家也很辛苦了但是好像都要做基本功了你看他們去稽查上月29號浩浩噹噹跑去這個原擺S3美食業做稽查27家業者中有3家發現這個衛生環境的缺失"},{"start":7711.491,"end":7734.685,"text":"當然這個是基礎的重點但也發現還有9家業者該去登錄非登不可沒有登錄所以他的提供體檢或進行這個進貨單的這類的行政的缺失是很明顯的那該去登錄非登不可沒有去登錄的有沒有委員實案法有委員第幾條要怎麼划"},{"start":7738.182,"end":7761.677,"text":"違反第8條、第2項的時候,要依48條去處罰對,要處罰多少?最低多少?最高多少?也是3萬到3百萬也是3萬到3百萬?對啊但我沒有看到台北市政府要開罰他有一個限期改善,前面有一個緩衝的處理"},{"start":7764.788,"end":7787.272,"text":"3月30在臺北市在突起這個臺北市內的百貨美食街又稽查39家除了衛生環境缺失外又發現一家為投保這個產品責任險剛剛那個是27家就有三分之一就9家那3月30我不曉得他的稽查他39家又有一家發現為投保這個產品責任險請部長再看這張圖"},{"start":7791.773,"end":7817.428,"text":"37家的百貨公司及各大賣場的美食街他要一個月清查全部清查這個我們當然支持不過你看到稽查重點第一風險食材保存、溫度與環境第二產品責任保險視為有效第三設備環境清潔你第一點第二點到現場我覺得我覺得當然是必要但是產品責任保險要到現場去稽查"},{"start":7822.613,"end":7832.563,"text":"我剛才說了都沒有一個事情預警的機制,人家要去檢查料、化配、補端、藉口去發工,這都沒福氣啊嘛對不對?不是不是,我說我想是這樣齁"},{"start":7837.288,"end":7862.983,"text":"中央當然要有中央改動要去把相關的這個制度頂得好啦台中幾乎在欠債的部分如果經常有在做稽查要看到這個保單就不會現在才要去看保單嘛把它列為這個環境稽查的重點我覺得這個首都勒首都現在在做這個事情所以我才會講說全部通通通通在做基本功而且看保單還要派這麼多人力"},{"start":7864.478,"end":7890.897,"text":"這其實連結到我們保險相關單位應該就可以勾結出來的為什麼不去做這其實很簡單只要把這些應該要投保的這些店家的列表然後他的保單效期到什麼時候對 所以我想說包含這個平台包含這個對 成品保險這個都不是這個其實都不需要到現場去勾 去稽查的嘛"},{"start":7891.357,"end":7892.238,"text":"那除了之外"},{"start":7911.85,"end":7937.098,"text":"我沒有去掌握到這相關的業者的保險存續問題那百貨公司剛剛也有人特別提到百貨公司的業者他們是不是也應該有監督的責任但是監督的責任跟法律上實際上他必須要去承載的這樣的一個法律責任就坦白講我感覺如果沒有法律過範其實那個落差也會蠻大是其一那其二"},{"start":7937.998,"end":7953.856,"text":"你看這次意外原本是大黃東嘛大時代廣場是二黃東台北市政府現在是拿大黃東的三頁綜合責任險與二黃東的公共意外責任險出來審視那到底能不能涵蓋到這次寶林茶室的食物中毒"},{"start":7954.597,"end":7974.893,"text":"意外在最終最終還沒有出入前都還是有變數了但是我看他們的記者會好像覺得好像是好像是朝那個方向但是我覺得這是有有不一樣的到時候會有不一樣的一個一個一個一個一個法律上的見解或是怎麼樣的一個處理"},{"start":7975.934,"end":7999.819,"text":"所以我是要強調說這些百貨業者或是美食界的承包商對旗下的餐廳他到底應該有什麼樣的一個連帶的責任然後跟這個保險上可以直接掛上去這是不是我們也要思考的問題嗎這當然以保險的責任如果在食安法他當然就是這一個提供飲食服務的這個廠商要去投保"},{"start":8000.919,"end":8022.296,"text":"至於說他的上層的這一些提供場地或者是說提供歸位或者是收取租金的這一些廠商的話跟他在責任上面要怎麼樣去share有沒有他的保險是否可以cover這老實說這要好好去研究"},{"start":8024.918,"end":8026.739,"text":"我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我..."},{"start":8053.436,"end":8058.507,"text":"地方政府有沒有去攻擊他的保險啊到底有沒有續保現在出事情了到底誰要負責責任"},{"start":8061.98,"end":8085.606,"text":"如果從法律的觀點來看的話那就是說這個場所的主人也就提供這些空間的這個公司是否對這個個別的廠商這些飲食店有監督管理職責那如果有那這個受害者要去球場的時候即使都這兩個就可以連帶球場"},{"start":8087.826,"end":8113.585,"text":"內在他們要怎麼遮蓋要怎麼保障責任分割那是他們內在的自己的事情對一個有保險可以遮蓋到那也是他們自己個別保單要去處理的所以對消費者來講他只要確定這一點就是說場所的這個主人對於個別廠商有沒有監督管理之責有沒有嘛部長因為要看他們的合約"},{"start":8117.428,"end":8133.326,"text":"基本上我相信消費大眾應該一定是有嘛因為我在這裡我的報告公司消費嘛對不對我是看這間報告公司的名來的嘛但是也不能排除說它是因為這間店很有名的比方說某家拉麵店"},{"start":8134.867,"end":8163.755,"text":"他不是因為這間百貨公司,他是因為這個拉麵很有名所以這很難說,回過頭來法律關係還是要看他們之間的契約如何但是我在這邊要去理要求部長跟食藥署可能站在中央主管機關對這件事情要儘快去做相關的調查跟釐清讓消費者可以得到一定程度的保障我們來跟消保處一起來處理好了"},{"start":8164.375,"end":8172.183,"text":"好然後相關的那些運行機制可能是不是可以盡快來建置好不好一個月內可以吧一個月"},{"start":8174.184,"end":8196.085,"text":"我們試試看啦,有可能啦有可能啦,我想這不能叫有可能,就是可能要了吧對啊,一定會做啦,只是說一個月內是不是能夠做出來,這個是有可能我就是要求一個月啦好不好,請部長跟署長就盡快啦最後一件事情,我要請教署長啦齁這個有人叫我不要提出來,但是我還是覺得必須要講"},{"start":8196.906,"end":8225.14,"text":"去年3月22 食藥署有公布111年度的食道違規食藥廣告並累計開罰到了將近200萬對啊那今年已經失業以後了報告委員這個禮拜我們就會公布而且齁臺北市衛生局都在2月19號公布他去年開罰的結果是所以我們什麼時候要公布我們這個禮拜會公布好是好我就我就善意的提醒了好不好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8230.299,"end":8231.623,"text":"小林製藥紅麴原料"},{"start":8599.909,"end":8603.951,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請圖全級委員進行質詢好 謝謝主席 那請我們薛部長好 請薛部長委員好"},{"start":8625.745,"end":8629.518,"text":"好部長那個針對寶林茶室那我知道我們"},{"start":8630.56,"end":8657.518,"text":"我們對於果條跟香蘭葉果汁還有再來米粉好像也有去檢驗過嘛那是不是零檢出食材的部分是零檢出對都沒有檢出那個米酵菌酸所以他這部分都沒有檢查出來那所以那現在因為就是沒有檢查出來所以國人對這個反而更加的恐慌那針對這部分他們說是不是米粉果條有沒有可能源頭供應有參毒的"},{"start":8660.86,"end":8684.785,"text":"那有沒有可能因為現在反而就是原因沒有出來反而大家議論紛紛那又說是不是因為這個成品上面長這個菌就是說有可能是炒好之後他去保溫到時候再加熱給民眾使用然後造成這個菌的滋生有沒有可能這樣子"},{"start":8685.345,"end":8706.368,"text":"那這部分有沒有去做這個測驗檢測?這部分我跟委員報告,現在比較頭痛的就在這裡也就是說一份一份做出來的都民眾都吃掉了沒有吃掉也當成廚餘也丟棄了所以在當時所使用的這個東西的話目前是沒有留樣啦"},{"start":8707.949,"end":8724.501,"text":"所以現在的困難是在這裡那就變成要往往前去追說那到底廚師在處理這一個不管是他的保存或者是在烹調的過程當中有沒有什麼樣的步驟可能引起這一個"},{"start":8724.881,"end":8742.966,"text":"所以我說有沒有針對他這樣子如果炒好他去保溫加熱之後會不會產生這個米酵菌酸目前所知的都是當場要用的時候才炒的並沒有說炒好是留下來所以他說他們都是炒好上的沒有存放"},{"start":8745.027,"end":8761.252,"text":"那現場之前的那個食材是否有好好保存這就是現在在調查的重點那會不會來把它保存加熱過會不會產生這個米酵菌酸有沒有可能加熱本身是不會啦是不會有測試過嗎"},{"start":8762.732,"end":8782.731,"text":"因為它這個菌會產生這個酸它是在特定的條件之下那我們所知這個特定條件包括溫度是22到33所以你一加熱的話一定不只這個溫度所以不是在那個時候炒的時候產生這個酸出來"},{"start":8783.459,"end":8808.966,"text":"那醬料的部分嗎?因為他說這個是獨門醬料那醬料的部分有沒有可能?醬料的部分我們也去驗過也沒有驗出來米消菌酸所以這些都已經去檢測過都沒有?對那針對這個寶林茶室這個部分因為很多的病例都是3到6天然後醫院才通報衛生局那這個部分我們之前有詢問過那了解這到底有沒有通報疏漏的狀況?"},{"start":8811.823,"end":8838.916,"text":"這個案子跟一般的食物中毒案子有不一樣因為他是個別去用餐了之後回到家然後才發生症狀然後分別去就醫所以並不是說很短的時間內很多的人同時去做就醫到同一家的院所去就醫所以他是分散的所以第一時間不向食物中毒對就那個醫療院所可能沒有辦法因為他不知道還有沒有其他"},{"start":8839.176,"end":8866.912,"text":"沒有辦法第一時間反應過來那所以因為這樣子的情形所以我們就是擔心說我們後來回去找這個食材其實一般的餐廳它沒有備那麼多食材其實以三到六天然後我們回去檢測其實這些食材早就已經找不到了對不對對 有可能所以我後面的食材其實已經不是當初那一批的食材只能推測這些食材所以第一批食材其實已經沒有辦法做檢驗了"},{"start":8868.632,"end":8887.7,"text":"那所以針對這部分其實採樣上是有難度的那我記得薛部長在3月28號的時候有說過說是不排除人為下毒那請問你現在經過這幾天你覺得這個看法還是一致嗎"},{"start":8890.381,"end":8917.054,"text":"應該現在的看法會是這樣那個所謂的人為下毒是一個故意的行為現在大概看起來不像因為從這個米下菌酸的產生的流程來看的話大概要做這樣的操作有困難但是是否為人為比如說疏失包括說食物上面的處理跟保存有應該注意沒有注意的這個不排除"},{"start":8918.027,"end":8931.482,"text":"所以部長的意思說目前看起來人為故意下毒的機會不大所以比較有可能是人為疏失造成的對有可能不能排除好那針對其實這一陣子我們衛福部"},{"start":8933.804,"end":8948.224,"text":"其實我也知道大家都很辛苦啦因為一連串的事項喔從之前我們蘇丹紅然後現在又孽兒然後現在又這個食物中毒然後從社福安全到食品安全其實當初我們就有"},{"start":8950.506,"end":8973.383,"text":"針對這個社福安全網因為虐兒事件造成輿論攻擊很多的社工嚴重的出走所以那時候我們也擔心說這個社工在我們推出很多措施方面但是沒有這麼多的社工去執行那現在我們衛福部又面臨從去年巴西蛋又到台糖豬瘦肉精"},{"start":8973.643,"end":8974.404,"text":"這部分因為這一個衛生稽查員是公務人員"},{"start":9000.415,"end":9018.846,"text":"那所以他的流動的部分的話通常會是換單位換一個執掌但是比較跟其他的說是一個約聘人員然後他就離開這一個場域的這機會是比較少的"},{"start":9021.289,"end":9046.81,"text":"對啊 據我們掌握這個訊息好像我們去年有統計過這個離職潮高達36%那捕人的速度捕人的速度這趕不上這個出走潮所以我們現在擔心就是我們現在發生那麼多的問題那我們也一直在做一些檢討跟改善的措施可是到時候會不會因為沒有這麼多的稽查人員去執行這些事務"},{"start":9048.614,"end":9071.208,"text":"這我們會一直來監測這些人力因為像衛生機茶園它的進跟出它有一定的一些管道所以這我們會監測對 針對我們有看這個衛福部網站的查詢那我看這個上面資訊全國的衛生機茶園只有119人是嗎應該不只啦"},{"start":9077.709,"end":9092.417,"text":"那這個他這個上面你看他總計只有11910幾年了只有107113年會有465個那是那個資料沒有更新還是怎麼樣這我們再check一下看看他到底因為這個"},{"start":9095.215,"end":9112.069,"text":"這個範圍有一點奇怪就是說他跟護士、助產師、醫放師這個放在一起所以可能部長去了解一下因為我們看到這個我們很擔心因為據我們了解我們現在七大案件整年稽查將近"},{"start":9112.329,"end":9113.05,"text":"那個太少了"},{"start":9125.996,"end":9149.489,"text":"我所知道應該不只啦好所以針對這部分希望部長去了解一下因為我們看到這個人數我們真的很擔心這稽查人數這根本負荷量又要去稽查又要寫報告又要到現場實驗室去檢驗那以這樣的人力難怪達不到這稽查的效果所以希望我們部長這一陣子我知道大家都很辛苦那"},{"start":9150.129,"end":9170.081,"text":"也希望我們針對這個食安五環的部分希望了解一下原因能夠加強改善檢討因為最近這食安問題讓我們全國人心惶惶希望能夠保障我們國人的健康那請部長還有我們署長這方面大家多加強一起努力好 謝謝好 謝謝圖全級委員接下來我們請王正旭委員進行質詢"},{"start":9188.563,"end":9211.948,"text":"謝謝主席有請薛部長好請薛部長委員好部長好真的是辛苦不過我想發生這個事情大家心情還是非常沉重而且也希望能夠得到儘速的改善那我們也知道其實很多的檢驗標準品有時候"},{"start":9214.988,"end":9235.346,"text":"從來沒有發生過我們就很難去做好準備那這一次真的非常感謝這個基督教彰化基督教醫院的即時協助因為幸好他們在早年有準備了這個標準品讓我們在第一時間安定民心讓我們知道透過這樣的即時的檢驗可以確定"},{"start":9237.167,"end":9259.285,"text":"應該是可以確定目前這個米肖峻酸的確是引起這次重大事件的一個影響那這部分除了我們要特別感謝這個彰化基督教醫院以外那未來在這個過程裡面我們如何能夠再做更多的準備這部分也要麻煩大家來幫忙或者是署裡面或者是部裡面來幫忙"},{"start":9260.046,"end":9285.789,"text":"那不過在這個不幸的事件裡面很多的醫療機構啊一開始醫療人員好像也受到一點誤解那幸好後面很快就可以讓社會民眾還有這些病患家屬知道所有的醫療機構都是很用心的在照顧我們民眾的健康這種突發事件雖然我們不樂見可是至少我們都善盡了一些醫療的責任那今年也開始實施了這個"},{"start":9286.93,"end":9311.328,"text":"醫療事故預防跟正義的處理法所以不管事前的這個事故的預防事後的這些關懷溝通跟正義的調解都很希望衛福部這邊能夠更主動的來協助不管是在民眾端、社會端或是醫療端都能夠得到更大的協助跟關懷那這部分部長將來能不能夠以這樣的態度跟方式來處理"},{"start":9313.245,"end":9322.99,"text":"目前醫療事故爭議的預防及處理法已經開始上路了有關這一類爭議的話我們就會有一個比較和緩的分階段處理的一些機制"},{"start":9329.153,"end":9348.994,"text":"讓他減低不管是醫病雙方哪一方他的一些負擔這個是這個法的一個重點但是以今天的這個案子有一個食物中毒的案子"},{"start":9350.735,"end":9375.367,"text":"變成說這一個被害人要去告醫院這本來就是一個非常奇怪的一個行為但是後來我們的了解當事人也出來澄清了根本沒這回事是媒體的錯誤的報導所以理論上來講媒體有這樣錯誤報導應該出來道歉跟社會道歉因為這個會影響很大"},{"start":9376.147,"end":9395.378,"text":"對於醫療人員的傷害以及是否會造成所謂的防衛性醫療造成對其他病人的損害這個都有可能的所以我是希望說媒體如果說報導不實的話應該出來道歉澄清"},{"start":9396.258,"end":9413.634,"text":"我們也期待大家可以更用包容可是在追求事實的過程裡面有更好的這個可能性那我們也知道這個食品檢驗基金是未來可以提供這個標準品統一採購的可能性那這部分不知道目前有沒有進度"},{"start":9415.395,"end":9436.581,"text":"所謂的食安檢驗基金的如何用、怎麼樣來用、錢從哪邊來這個都還在規劃當中那初步的話是可能從食安基金的部分來增加它的用途這個方向去走但是實際上要怎麼樣來"},{"start":9437.841,"end":9458.729,"text":"臺灣"},{"start":9458.829,"end":9462.71,"text":"我跟你們報告這一個標準品的準備是沒有極限的以現在食藥署有7000多個標準品在"},{"start":9488.527,"end":9512.424,"text":"他的那個等於說銜路裡面大概2萬多個啦但是那個還是有可能不足那什麼樣需要去準備標準品這個不是像說在打電動這樣把你擠下去你就造出來不是這樣因為有一些標準品的話你要去訂了他才會開始製造國際的這些廠商他也沒有"},{"start":9513.925,"end":9535.564,"text":"因為太少用的就是這個樣子所以這個是有一點點複雜的問題但是如果經常可以用得到的話我們大概都已經準備了是 好了解因為現在全球流通疫情以後事實上是越來越頻繁那如果鄰近國家曾經有一些可能"},{"start":9536.224,"end":9560.129,"text":"或者曾經發生過的部分我們就盡量來準備這部分就麻煩部裡面可以努力的來處理那到底發生的這些中毒的物質啊或者是這些食品的判斷標準一直都是會讓民眾迷惑包括說這次的小林製藥的紅麴它到底是什麼樣的菌它是什麼樣的毒素"},{"start":9560.769,"end":9580.281,"text":"或者是有其他的相關的可能性也好或者是米酵菌栓到底很多這個對民眾教育來講其實剛好就是一個機會教育讓民眾對於他的生活在他飲食可以更為了解那對於以前我們所學習到的這些微生物對人體的影響"},{"start":9581.141,"end":9609.058,"text":"致病菌的問題這個部分也麻煩部裡面署裡面可以有更多的民眾教育來加強這方面讓民眾對於自己身體健康的安全的了解這部分的話其實從最近這兩件包括小林紅麴的這一個到現在還不知道到底是什麼東西引起來的到寶林茶室的這一個米酵菌酸這也是我們第一次接觸到的"},{"start":9609.958,"end":9623.511,"text":"我們都可以看得到這食安的問題是在演變當中有很多可能未來會有很多這種過去從來沒有碰到的會跑出來這種問題會跑出來這個就跟傳染病新興傳染病一樣"},{"start":9629.156,"end":9655.247,"text":"過去沒有的這些微生物現在又逐漸的也許氣候變遷還是怎麼樣等等的關係就逐漸跑出來再加上國際間的一個平衡的交流所以老實講這個有它的共同點也就是說我們越來在預防上面是越來越困難但是我們必須要建立我們的韌性"},{"start":9656.721,"end":9671.955,"text":"重點是一旦有這種新興的案件出來的話能夠很迅速的去發現它的原因然後去做處理才能夠說以後有這種預防的措施出來"},{"start":9672.515,"end":9691.632,"text":"是的確我想民眾透過這次的整個慘痛的過程也會知道到底未來要注意什麼事情不過我們看到這個在網頁上有細菌性食品中毒相關的一些說明那不知道這次米酵菌栓的說明已經登錄上去了嗎"},{"start":9694.018,"end":9714.555,"text":"我們現在正在簽我們會把它加進來OK 這個應該盡速了因為都已經經過一兩個禮拜相信大家很清楚那對於將來的醫療機構要做判定也好對民眾來講應該都是非常重要的一個訊息那我們真的很希望民眾不要恐慌"},{"start":9715.756,"end":9740.653,"text":"因為政府把關之下其實一開始會有一些狀況不過相對來講透過這樣的這些過程民眾也應該要有好的正確的判斷避免自己的生活陷入一個恐慌當中那這個當然是很希望大家共同來努力那食安問題政府應該可以更主動的來做一些部分的加強比如說以小林這個製藥紅麴事件來看的話我們在"},{"start":9746.797,"end":9764.39,"text":"3月27號的時候是有國內預防性下架121件可是到了3月29號兩天以後就增加到200多件意思就是說除了我們讓業者能夠主動的通報下架以外其實我們主管機關這邊應該主動的聯繫業者下架這變成是一個雙向"},{"start":9768.473,"end":9782.469,"text":"其實我們一開始就主動聯繫進口提供的這些下游廠商他們所製造出來的產品我們就主動通知他們下架那現在是還在"},{"start":9783.37,"end":9809.804,"text":"謝謝﹖"},{"start":9810.703,"end":9833.064,"text":"好 謝謝王振旭委員的質詢等一下盧縣議委員質詢完畢我們處理臨時提案現在請林淑芬委員質詢好 主席 各位各位大家午安是不是來請我們薛部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":9842.085,"end":9862.901,"text":"對立法院來講其實是很敷衍了事你再看看3月7號3月7號你們來這裡做這個也是十三五環3月4號十三五環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告這個是今天的檢討報告你們的結語除了主持第一句不同然後每一次每一句通通都一樣結語通通都一樣"},{"start":9865.604,"end":9870.15,"text":"結語就是說我們都已經採取了精進措施了而且強化了風險預警的功能了而且及早發現未來將於第一時間阻斷問題產品於境外等等啊都講的一模一樣3月4號跟4月1號寫的都一模一樣的結論啊"},{"start":9880.663,"end":9909.184,"text":"那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的這個措施啦你們在討論光是寶林茶室啊我上次在上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已第一個是通報的問題第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實而且沒有集合沒有監督的這個問題就這兩點你們在這個裡面食藥署提出來的報告食品中毒通報你們不覺得你們有問題然後對於這個投保產品責任險的問題你說我們有法律了"},{"start":9909.824,"end":9911.665,"text":"現在我們在講的是說如果因應非典型新型態而且是非社區型的餐飲場所的這個食品中毒案例那你上次說"},{"start":9932.25,"end":9938.913,"text":"我上次就教於你說大家要是沒有新聞露出大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源然後大家集體去這個通報才有這麼的案例如果從3月24的第一例死亡通報324、325到326"},{"start":9952.301,"end":9968.117,"text":"三月二十六新聞露出才有之後才有大量通報那我要說很多話你若不是因為新聞露出你去看病醫生有可能誤判以外也有可能是說這是我個人健康管理不良或是我自己吃壞肚子這樣而已"},{"start":9970.399,"end":9988.328,"text":"所以這個通報很重要那你上個禮拜你跟我講說這個食品中毒也必須要兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品發生相似的症狀嗎但是事實上你們食藥署在規定你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段"},{"start":9989.048,"end":10009.385,"text":"後半段是因為涉食食品造成極性的食品中毒不管它是化學的或是天然的毒素中毒即便只有一個人也視為一件食品中毒事件但通報通報是一回事啊那種非社區型的餐飲場所的食品中毒通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來"},{"start":10010.806,"end":10036.526,"text":"所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的非典型的食品中毒裡面如果受害了或者是有症狀了可以在大家在通報以外還可以連結在一起找出正確的對症然後治療這很重要啊可是你們根本沒有精進的作業你們還沒有精進的措施你們說你們精進你怎麼都沒都沒有啊"},{"start":10039.648,"end":10054.752,"text":"對於整個制度,我上禮拜就跟你們說有沒有可以再檢討的地方,難道一點問題都沒有嗎?看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題,你們也不覺得制度有問題,也沒有覺得執行面有問題,你們還節於寫的跟3月4號的報告一模一樣,這不是在呼嚨立法院嗎?難怪人家講藐視國會啊!"},{"start":10063.046,"end":10063.806,"text":"我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制"},{"start":10090.738,"end":10116.474,"text":"對啦,要建立一個補充的機制雖然個案數少,但是嚴重度高的那這一種的通報的話,也許後面的處理方式會不足通報還不是這樣,3月23給你們通報通報跟大家,大家都沒有來通報因為新聞沒有露出嘛我們是後來3月26一死一重症露出以後大家才瞬間湧入"},{"start":10118.415,"end":10137.004,"text":"那個是老實講也有媒體的效應的問題但是我們現在要去處理就是因為一個案子進來的時候其他醫院並不知道所以未來這個部分都要去做處理如果說他有嚴重的比方說死亡的個案的時候怎麼樣"},{"start":10138.425,"end":10148.056,"text":"就讓醫院知道說,啊,類似的對啊,所以製度面,連製度面都有檢討,值得檢討的地方啊可是你們食藥署,寫的這個報告能看嗎?那我們現在講說,成功的預判,你們的結論講我們喔,更精進的政策,我們要發揮成功的預判,這都說過了,哪有成功預判過?"},{"start":10159.85,"end":10169.649,"text":"連使用的既有的系統和制度都發生問題然後也不承認問題那我現在在問你說保定未來的米酵菌酸是不是會列入食品的常規檢驗裡面"},{"start":10172.268,"end":10189.202,"text":"這個還是要再看我們這一次調查結果是怎樣因為老實講它怎麼樣發生的到目前你還不知道所以你要去說但我們知道如果也有個案的話米肖峻山的個案的話都是非常重大的傷亡重症或死亡很嚴重"},{"start":10190.303,"end":10204.813,"text":"所以到底現在如果是在操作的哪一個環節才會進行這個米香菌栓這目前是我們在調查的一個重點啦好啦 單調查出來現在看說要不要列入常規的檢驗項目啦"},{"start":10206.314,"end":10207.374,"text":"你回去好好想一下啦但我今天還是要講土法不足以自刑"},{"start":10222.54,"end":10249.885,"text":"這個業者自律我們都看到屢屢破功而且不可行而且絕對不能只仰賴業者自律你不能讓民眾去吃飯都是用生命在拔在拔在堵啊堵生命在吃飯啊你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎都是外食大家用生命去吃飯要堵堵這個運氣這是不行的但我們要求說那至少大家都會確認說食安法第13條第1項裡面要公告的就應投"},{"start":10251.245,"end":10252.365,"text":"給你四十三萬、四十五萬"},{"start":10280.447,"end":10284.19,"text":"我現在告訴你沒關係食品製造輸入經營一百萬一百萬啦汽車要強制顯示一千三百萬輛的車子他都可以管理了"},{"start":10303.105,"end":10319.005,"text":"現在AI大數據人說你們沒辦法勾結案管理我覺得這是真的是不對的這可以做這一次的這個寶林茶室他沒有投保責任權如果沒有大時代如果沒有大原百"},{"start":10320.066,"end":10339.553,"text":"事實上這些傷亡其實是重症的是沒有辦法接住他們的啊所以怎麼可以怎麼可以不被接住 不可以用死命打暈了但我比較慢的打到 還沒保險怎麼辦絕對要每一個每一時每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態裡面那我現在問你喔 這個我們請食藥署提供的啦"},{"start":10345.315,"end":10359.207,"text":"請食藥署提供這五年裡面2019到2023年各個縣市沒有投保產品責任權開罰的件數這五年裡面你們食藥署提供的數字有沒有辦法放大"},{"start":10361.437,"end":10387.764,"text":"這五年裡面,食藥署提供的,我不曉得正不正確,如果他對我們虛偽偽、亂說話,我也沒辦法這個不在上面的是沒有零,是零,沒有開罰的紀錄,這個裡面一共全部162件,光是臺南市政府就佔了九成以上,其他各縣市,我現在要問的是,是沒有在查還是查不到?"},{"start":10389.394,"end":10390.876,"text":"我現在要問你師弟你覺得這個數字反映是什麼意思什麼意義反映了什麼"},{"start":10408.347,"end":10419.25,"text":"報告委員 因為我們這一條的規定喔業者他其實也可以限改所以如果去查的時候看他沒有保那地方政府會要求他你看 很好 你看 我們都沒報一年沒報 兩年沒報 查到叫你馬上限期改善經濟保險而已未開罰 大家也敢沒報開罰對3萬到3百萬大家最低開罰3萬起條 我們都知道所以呢"},{"start":10439.497,"end":10451.829,"text":"你這樣子還可以限期改善所以都沒開法數字就是這個意思我們在法律上雖然有規定但在執行面大家都輕輕放下叫他趕快去保險就好了照署長的講法"},{"start":10456.656,"end":10472.546,"text":"我們現在問說中央主管機關你要督導地方縣政府齊查以外、人力配置以外、中央法規要落實法規的這個規定啊阿拉伯都可以限期改善大家可以一年、兩年沒保險一站起來抓到又不會出發這樣感覺"},{"start":10477.039,"end":10506.699,"text":"這份報告我們再來精進啦對啦,這樣就不行了啊包括說你如果這一個有多久這個衛投保已經超過多久了也許就不給他衛投保再兩天、一天給他一個機會限期改善衛投保一個月、兩個月、三個月一年、兩年、三年處分會一樣嗎對不對所以有沒有需要精進的管理政策有啊"},{"start":10507.399,"end":10516.11,"text":"你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎?沒有!大家立委大家跟你們解釋一下,你們現在要怎麼說?我現在還懷疑這個案件,看得出是中央政府沒在查嗎?還是中央政府沒在跟中央政府聯繫?跟地方政府聯繫,所以沒有聯繫,所以不知道"},{"start":10527.643,"end":10552.241,"text":"這應該就是有去查的不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件"},{"start":10556.303,"end":10575.935,"text":"109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的"},{"start":10577.585,"end":10605.074,"text":"因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉"},{"start":10606.794,"end":10619.04,"text":"如果照那樣子的話一百...如果這樣子台北市的112年的應該就不會有寶林茶室了或是應該就一件是寶林茶室了"},{"start":10620.67,"end":10640.11,"text":"這個我是有點懷疑啦,好,沒關係,我再幫你問問我們現在看到說臺北市政府就針對轄區內37家保護公司跟大賣場、美食街、稽查然後查核這個風險那各縣市的稽查是只有臺北市在進行還是各地方政府都在進行"},{"start":10641.584,"end":10661.412,"text":"目前我們知道是臺北市比較積極在做阿那為什麼不要利用這個經驗以這個經驗要求全國全面性的清除了查一遍百貨公司各縣市通通都有百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎阿現在我看到剛剛看到新聞桃園只查異國料理只有異國料理有問題嗎我覺得這樣子講是不是也"},{"start":10665.954,"end":10674.585,"text":"也有一點點怪怪的那我現在在跟你講這個我一直講土法不足以自行你們今天講這麼三大主題的檢討和策進行為光是蘇丹紅好了蘇丹紅事件"},{"start":10681.634,"end":10707.675,"text":"蘇丹紅事件我們來看一下查到登錄不實因為你們檢討報告還有因應的對策很多但是說來說去就是沒有對自己的檢討你們都只有對業者的檢討對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環你們的溯源追蹤系統人家登載不實或是要應登而未登你們都沒在管"},{"start":10710.797,"end":10724.692,"text":"你的報告也沒寫,你都沒在管要怎麼處理?有啦,這個補分有啦,未來對於這些邊境的管理的不尊重沒有啦,我覺得你在這個委員會對立法院很不尊重欸"},{"start":10725.956,"end":10742.303,"text":"我在質詢的時候就跟你講了你們現在被禁的21家的中國中國這個辣椒粉產品輸入的廠商我們講過Kevin Shipp是傳物公司根本不是食品公司你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的你現在自己這麼說的假"},{"start":10750.308,"end":10763.381,"text":"這個貨源來自於凱文西普這件事你還寫在這裡給我們報告這間公司給我們禁掉啊這間就不是食品製造商輸出商這間是傳物公司啊輸出商我們已經禁掉啊"},{"start":10764.142,"end":10790.475,"text":"你今天在立法院跟我們報告的,還跟船務公司說禁止你趕緊下來嘛,你們的製造商還有一間凱文食品第13頁你連這個都不願意更改你再提供給立委的資料,還是這樣子一字不改安於電管的電器就是這間嘛"},{"start":10793.343,"end":10794.504,"text":"我問你啦這個登錄不實啊你平時要怎麼集合不要講說出事了才來抓你要發揮預警預判的功能"},{"start":10815.285,"end":10822.491,"text":"兩監察院有共第一個應登錄的廠商就已經夠少了四十幾萬家廠商你這登錄一萬家然後登錄了這麼少的量裡面呢他胡說八道亂填亂登你也沒有再集合這要怎麼處理這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼你都沒有寫你的食藥署現在還用這種"},{"start":10841.86,"end":10858.494,"text":"不死的數據來呼嚨全立法院的立委這些數據沒有不死啦有啊,開發食品就不是廠商,就不是食品輸出廠商啊現在一直系統中完整的就是這個名字你現在大聲一點跟我們說,這真的是睜著眼說瞎話,恥辱為麻你說喔,嚇死跟我們說的就是這間你不要去調查嚇死很多的兄兄,嚇死你"},{"start":10866.58,"end":10869.824,"text":"因為我們當時在系統裡面的話就是輸入啊我問你啦追溯追蹤系統亂登啦登載不實啦除了發生重大事件被你們查出來還不是你們查出來被立委"},{"start":10883.491,"end":10904.6,"text":"我們幫你查的啦被立委查出來了你們才要處罰以外你們才要重懲然後回頭去看他登錄不實然後嚴懲以外請海順你就沒出分啊海順你這台電也沒出分啊也登錄不實啊那平常登錄不實你要怎麼勾結啊你要怎麼集合啊"},{"start":10906.646,"end":10907.889,"text":"你不要說大家出問題你就去種種啦沒出問題你要怎麼處分、處理、精進、檢討"},{"start":10915.45,"end":10940.602,"text":"因為時間的關係請那個衛福部長對阿他都沒有講阿從一發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討也沒有精進的作為他現在精進的作為都管理業者安裝安裝安裝他都沒說我自己未來要做什麼你未來你做你讓食安五環破工讓溯源追蹤系統這個制度土法不足以自行你就是建立登陸制度就沒有食安問題了嗎"},{"start":10941.883,"end":10957.048,"text":"以後北東你都沒在管理,也沒集合,這個問題要怎麼解決啊?你不來講?衛福部要提出那個檢討報告。不要講啦!不要這樣子挨到520,大家都要下台了,所以就忍一下就算了吧。"},{"start":10958.289,"end":10958.789,"text":"主席請部長"},{"start":10988.359,"end":11013.087,"text":"好 請薛部長部長辛苦囉好 委員好那我們先就這個寶林茶室的這個問題來看齁你先唸一下它的英文的名字好嗎Bone Cracked Acid那請問在字面上的意思是什麼意思這個是"},{"start":11015.475,"end":11037.472,"text":"這應該是一個...它是我們南島語系的所謂的拍擠的意思拍打的意思它是因為那個餅它在做的時候是這樣做的可是跟米一點關係都沒有那也就是說你們在取名的時候是完全複製了中國的名字你們很喜歡去中國化那為什麼這個時候又用了中國的字眼呢?"},{"start":11039.255,"end":11056.644,"text":"當時是怎麼想的當時第一次發現這一個這可能是這一個物質的時候因為它以前是發生在中國所以就引用了中國不過現在大家在唸的時候就很不順口啊我剛剛在聽陳敬惠律委在講的時候"},{"start":11058.024,"end":11085.317,"text":"因為這個我們確實也沒有遇過對不對那米酵菌酸它其實跟米一點關係都沒有不過裡面唯一發對的那個是酵就是發酵的時候發生的這個它是在我們在油脂這個環境之下產生的那這次我們看到的這個兩個死亡的案件我看它的年齡很像跟"},{"start":11086.377,"end":11112.93,"text":"沒有所謂的一定性,他一個是39歲一個是60幾歲那你認為他的underline底細值有關係嗎?看起來應該不太有關係那現在這五個加護病房的個案有醫院之間有互相聯繫嗎?因為我們有找他們一起來開過會大概做了這些case本身的一些review所以大概訊息上面應該會有互通"},{"start":11115.009,"end":11133.499,"text":"好,就我們這一頁看到一個唐昌浦博士菌,它又叫做唐昌浦博士菌,它又是米酵菌酸,都沒有一個一定的那個名稱,那個唐昌浦是什麼意思?應該是一個植物。是,它是健卵。那為什麼就不用健卵就好了?"},{"start":11135.707,"end":11159.934,"text":"所以有時候要想一下然後跟上面那個又不一致啊那到底在講什麼大家都不知道而且這個翻譯的名稱又不是所有的唐昌甫伯克氏菌都有產生以下菌酸所以有時候在做一些疾病的一些命名或者是規範應該要讓大家知道不然你又是這個又是那個然後也不知道這到底在講什麼我們拿到那個我們個案數"},{"start":11162.261,"end":11178.244,"text":"我看這樣一個個案齁就是你從上面到下面看到的關鍵字齁大概都是草規條嘛齁那這個草規條的幾乎上最主要的關鍵字就是草嘛所以它就是有啊所以想到的話是不是這樣子第一個"},{"start":11179.537,"end":11207.312,"text":"跟油有關係?跟調味料有關係?當然都不排除啦但是後來我們在現在有比較確定的方向了嗎?現在我們把那一個從寶林茶室這邊收集回來的這些檢體去驗包括醬油、包括油、包括這個果條等等這一些大概都沒有驗出來這個所謂的米焦因素那現在是25案了嘛對不對?欸,31"},{"start":11210.914,"end":11235.674,"text":"那你看剛才都說保險的問題那現在如果說確實有發生傷亡了那完全球場無門我們政府要怎麼辦可能也不至於通通球場無門第一個就是說該負責的除了這一個寶林茶室本身這一個廠商之外的話那他的出租者"},{"start":11237.455,"end":11254.757,"text":"有沒有這個因為場所而有監督管理的責任這件事情如果有的話他就會必須要付年代賠償的責任我剛剛看到了就家務病房有臺北馬街有三重有北一還有台南市立醫院"},{"start":11255.498,"end":11271.989,"text":"那我希望能不能他們有一些所謂的視訊會議對個案的照顧上面這個會啦會有嗎這個基本上都會有啦那我們也都那個我們的CDC齁 集管署也都陸陸續續在關心這些病人的一個進展"},{"start":11276.652,"end":11296.929,"text":"關於小林製藥這個紅麴的部分他2016年開始原料供應然後2021年開始販售那大概兩三年的時間造成了這些問題那我們是什麼時候開始注意到我們這個問題應該是在日本的報導出來應該是在今年的年初"},{"start":11298.773,"end":11326.713,"text":"那現在的作為是什麼現在我們一方面還是收集這個日本那邊的一些資訊一方面的話我們就接受我們國內所以目前臺灣就只有那一件洗腎的個案嗎有 現在報上了應該是有六件有六例啦他上面寫說很像也不是Straining嘛他說是不明的物體那不明的物體是指什麼現在還不知道所以也不知道日本也不知道也還沒查出來"},{"start":11327.293,"end":11348.764,"text":"他們現在只是說那個軟毛青梅樹這一個部分的話他們懷疑的那日本現在無死那你有沒有做case study有沒有得到資料目前還沒有還是希望你們能夠拿到資料不然我們台灣發生的話你還是可以做一個依據啊可以嗎當然當然那還是講到賠償的問題像這跨海賠償是誰要幫忙"},{"start":11356.024,"end":11361.086,"text":"目前在目前建立的窗口是在IHR也就是CDC這邊CDC這裡對對對"},{"start":11387.295,"end":11403.27,"text":"這個有幫忙嗎?有協助了嗎?剛剛他兩天前他才來要資料而已我們現在準備把資料所以目前的六案裡面有幾個人起身?好像不是所有都是起身這我剛才確認一下"},{"start":11417.486,"end":11417.586,"text":"主席"},{"start":11432.078,"end":11459.415,"text":"臨時提案第一案．寶林茶室中毒事件整體食物中毒因果尚未釐清．為敦促行政院以及各部會就食安檢驗、稽查量能、風險預防以及本事件後續處理進行檢討．並研擬策進作為．原要求行政院食安辦公室、衛生福利部緊速提出召開緊急食安匯報的需求提案人委員陳金輝、廖偉祥、蘇清泉第二案"},{"start":11460.035,"end":11466.261,"text":"近日寶林茶店等一連串食安風暴導致各地衛生局稽查人員業務量大幅提升若基層稽查人員不足食安網也無法發揮預期功能為了使綿密的食安網系統發揮作用"},{"start":11476.091,"end":11495.524,"text":"預防並即時因應未來食品衛生安全事件,原要求衛生福利部通盤檢討,中央與地方積查量能,強化人力禁用及專業久任,增資源補人力,中央與地方協力,完善食品安全網。提案人委員陳金輝、廖偉祥、蘇清泉"},{"start":11497.23,"end":11503.978,"text":"第三案有鑒於近期寶林茶室食物中毒事件卻因餐廳業者產品責任顯過期恐造成受害者求償無門亦有數家業者未保險或保險過期甚至有持過期保險證件以應付稽查之情形發生"},{"start":11514.609,"end":11535.23,"text":"逐漸此問題應建立有效監督系統改善之必要．原要求而未服部於一個月內．完成對於餐飲業者之產品責任險．評估建立雲端資料庫之可行性．以供主管機關、保險公司、業者以及民眾做管理及查核之用提案人委員王育敏、陳金輝、蘇清泉聯署人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉"},{"start":11538.673,"end":11554.742,"text":"第4案有鑑於日本小林製藥生產有毒紅麴事件我國亦有上百件產品遭到污染其中近九成具有衛福部鑑識規制小綠人認證標章又查我國另有更進一步個案審查之鑑識制認證標章為紅麴類產品"},{"start":11558.104,"end":11583.477,"text":"自設立標章制以來,僅有9件通過且民眾不易分辨兩種標章區別原要求衛生福利部於一個月內提出小綠人標章之機制檢討報告評估有效使民眾辨認兩種小綠人標章之可能性另應同時說明如何解決見識自標章產品數量偏少之問題與成因提案人委員王育敏"},{"start":11584.097,"end":11604.532,"text":"聯署人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉第5案食品安全衛生管理法第13條第一項明定經中央主管機關公告類別及規模之食品業者應投保產品責任保險現行規範系仰賴自我約束之被查制應將現行食品安全責任保險比照"},{"start":11605.272,"end":11630.948,"text":"強制《汽車責任保險法》導入強制性明確規範投保義務人保險人及主管機關兼之權利義務以利系統化勾基跟除投機業者原建請衛生福利部針對食品安全責任保險改強制性議案與立法院召開公聽會並提出強制食品安全責任保險法草案提案人委員廖偉翔、陳金輝、屠權及徐巧欣"},{"start":11632.83,"end":11637.932,"text":"第6案．近期食安事件憑人簽有進口過期單繼臺堂驗出萊豬蘇丹紅事件後．近期又爆出寶林茶室食品中毒事件．一連串的食安風暴讓臺灣民眾人心惶惶．原要求衛福部於一個月內研議食安五環．針對每個環節違反業者研議防毒改善方案．並擬定裁罰措施或提高裁罰金額．"},{"start":11659.222,"end":11666.926,"text":"避免再發生食安事件提供消費者安全的食安環境並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告提案人委員蘇清泉、陳金輝、廖偉祥第7案"},{"start":11673.154,"end":11679.138,"text":"有鑒於行政院經濟部依電價費率審議會決議電價113年4月起平均調漲11%衛生福利部對醫療的管制採社會福利的思維計劃性經濟的管制措施演覽醫療機構的生存可視為社會福利的公益團體原此為保障民眾就醫的可得性與品質衛生福利部及經濟部必須共同考量醫療機構的社會公益的特殊性"},{"start":11702.534,"end":11718.116,"text":"醫療機構應比照攝服機構引列入動仗列入動仗店駕提案人委員蘇清泉、陳金輝、廖偉祥、王育敏第8案近期因寶林茶室中毒案影響國人攝取米飯米食製品"},{"start":11718.877,"end":11728.425,"text":"等產品的消費信心：農糧署也特別對外表示以米為主成分或純米製成的果條、米粉等產品不經過發酵步驟製成單純。原此為重建民眾對米類製品信心要求一"},{"start":11734.89,"end":11759.78,"text":"衛福部應緊速完成事件調查嚴格要求地方政府落實食品安全督導業務。二衛福部應跨部會合作針對米類製品進行相關食品安全衛教及宣導並將相關作為於一個月內以書面報告向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告提案人委員黃秀芳、劉建國、王振旭第9案日前食藥署及疾管署"},{"start":11761.02,"end":11767.107,"text":"會同臺北市政府衛生局及毒物專家製寶林茶室聯合調查由食藥署吸回檢驗,依目前檢驗情況而言,僅是確定患者體內有米酵菌酸,若進一步進行定量檢驗則可確認濃度,有助釐清患者體內米酵菌酸濃度與病況間之關係。"},{"start":11782.967,"end":11804.344,"text":"原此要求衛生福利部在陸續取得標準品後因持續優化檢驗方法緊速完成相關試驗以利早日釐清毒性物質與個案間病況之關係提案人委員黃秀芳、劉建國、王正旭第10案此次臺北市寶林食安事件突顯出餐飲業者在為投保"},{"start":11805.265,"end":11822.103,"text":"保險為登錄非登不可平台為提供員工檢體資料以及進貨單據等行政類作業政府端竟然都沒有預警機制同時針對餐廳業者保險未保一事竟然都沒有人知道層層把關機制完全喪失"},{"start":11823.044,"end":11850.179,"text":"要求衛生福利部立即檢討一個月內建立諸如保險資訊、員工體檢報告、進貨單據這些資料可以透過系統勾結、系統警示的應該儘速來建置系統同時研擬百貨業者、美食街承包商對於下層餐廳的管理責任建置起一個食安網提案人委員劉建國、連署人委員黃秀芳、王振旭宣讀完畢"},{"start":11860.058,"end":11874.248,"text":"好那個剛剛蘇委員他提案的五期要優先處理請問各位有沒有意見沒有那就讓蘇委員的案子先處理來第五案先處理第五案"},{"start":11881.061,"end":11885.785,"text":"包括委員第5案的部分有一些文字的修正"},{"start":11889.878,"end":11915.943,"text":"那第二段這裡應該加應將現行依據加加依據食品安全衛生管理法第13條授權公告導入強制性那後面第二行就沒有修改到第三行以利系統化勾基這裡勾基劃掉以利系統化根除投機業者"},{"start":11917.483,"end":11942.751,"text":"那原件請衛福部針對前述公告改強制性疑案召開說明會並提出公告修正草案不過這個我們本來就是強制的本來就是強制是沒有落實的問題應該是在執行的時候地方在稽查可能要確實去那這個都強制的要這裡改這個要怎麼好"},{"start":11945.151,"end":11949.403,"text":"就一案一案來第5案來那個委員巧欣委員"},{"start":11953.225,"end":11980.236,"text":"主席 我說明一下現在我們食品安全衛生管理法雖然看起來是強制的但實際上根本不需要向政府部門通報所以剛剛林淑芬委員的質詢裡面也講了為什麼它裁罰的件數這麼少就是因為它變成是要地方每一個稽查員到每一家店去檢舉的時候看才知道它有還是沒有可是我們在這個提案裡面想到的比照所謂的強制汽機車責任險的保險法我們都知道我們的汽機車強制險"},{"start":11981.536,"end":11981.636,"text":"是會通報的"},{"start":12012.016,"end":12023.68,"text":"過期了被發現的話有罰則可是他不需要向政府部門一定說通報之後他的期限過了以後那我們會收到這個alarm之後直接去做採訪我們並沒有這樣子的規範啊"},{"start":12026.199,"end":12043.084,"text":"報告委員我們會改我們的系統以後就會有警示的機制然後這個警示會通知業者會通知地方政府讓他們看到他已經到期了而且這個是會到期之前的一個月我們現在是朝這個方向在改這裡這邊寫的好像又跟我們現在那個"},{"start":12049.426,"end":12076.357,"text":"因為我們在飛燈不可見現在就可以已經他們要上去勾只是那個到齊了沒有齁等於沒有現在等於是沒有看到那個資訊對啊你到齊了之後他沒有那個資訊沒有通報給地方政府沒有因為這樣子連動的後續開罰這後面完全是沒有的所以這部分是沒有的對你們要做OK所以我的意思是說其實就就一樣嘛那個公聽會部分可以改成說明會沒有問題喔嗯改說明會"},{"start":12078.748,"end":12081.786,"text":"並提出改善措施這樣好不好"},{"start":12082.423,"end":12082.563,"text":"好,好,謝謝"},{"start":12110.313,"end":12137.834,"text":"那就按修正通過來接下來第6案7啊好你要先沒關係啦沒差也報告委員吼那個第6案這裡的第一行後面驗出萊豬這個吼要改祭台堂驗出西部特羅這次的事件是西部特羅第一行第一行後面那裡"},{"start":12139.396,"end":12167.197,"text":"西部特羅那第二段的部分第二段有一些文字上面的修正原因要求衛福部於兩個月內二個月內研議食安五環這裡的到第二行的時候就是研議有效我們加個有效防毒改善方案這個防毒不法事件改善方案"},{"start":12171.323,"end":12174.745,"text":"並擬定強化措施或落實才華"},{"start":12190.868,"end":12206.386,"text":"第7案報告是有關電價調整那我們這邊提案是建議把醫療機構比照社福機構來列入動長那我們最後這兩行第二行我們建議改幾個字第一個就是加入評估醫療機構"},{"start":12208.188,"end":12223.859,"text":"然後把硬取掉評估醫療機構比照社福機構列入動長之可行性我們來評估它的可行性那主要是要跟各位委員報告就是說依照電業法那個電價的調整是由我們有一個電價"},{"start":12225.26,"end":12247.545,"text":"的審議會來做決定那事實上這個這次的電價調整已經開始實施了那但是委員的建議我們願意把他納入評估因為我們在未來做電價調整我們可以做納入動長的一個可行性評估那主要為什麼社福機構有那主要是針對弱勢團體那麼這次有考慮針對弱勢團體我們給他做動長那至於未來醫療機構要不要"},{"start":12254.366,"end":12269.629,"text":"我看你們經濟部就是公告倉促公告然後就這個理由好像在國防委員我有聽到你都說阿的審議小組已經通過阿所以今天漁人姐會把你們當作笑的就把你氣了"},{"start":12271.408,"end":12298.15,"text":"國民黨黨團那次接見我們醫療團體本是要求所有的醫療相關的都動長那後來我們衛福部還有店家小組有說那地區醫院可以動長嘛但是呢區醫院有的還是規模不大而且在偏遠地區所以你如果這樣我可以接受"},{"start":12299.398,"end":12326.159,"text":"醫學中心就像我們部長講的我們學部長講的加大越大比較沒有影響支出增加1%但是如果是偏遠地區的區域院那個都是很慘淡經營而且規模也不是很大只比地區院高一檔而已現在我能夠接受的就是區域院動長然後醫學中心"},{"start":12327.369,"end":12331.303,"text":"你要長,我們還可以接受。可以嗎?"},{"start":12332.839,"end":12335.641,"text":"你又要講一個店家小組不是你可以控制啦"},{"start":12362.719,"end":12363.88,"text":"你的議程都經過大院審查通過了,沒有這項了"},{"start":12385.99,"end":12412.338,"text":"我們超收啦、公務預算都有齁、一倍金等等很多啦那個都還沒有列入預算把這個結議加一加一個這樣可以嗎?阿就沒預算阿沒預算阿不可以叫衛福部編列預算啦因為我們現在就沒有預算預算都已經通過了阿阿沒理念阿"},{"start":12415.273,"end":12438.028,"text":"所以你再念一遍,再念一遍,你的要怎麼幹?我是最後是說評估醫療機構比照社福機構隕列入動長電價之可行性就是我們可以來評估啦,但是沒有辦法在這邊承諾說就是一定會做動長,而且事實上這個已經開始實施了"},{"start":12441.877,"end":12445.464,"text":"好那第7案就按修正文字通過來接下來第1案"},{"start":12452.225,"end":12476.072,"text":"主席第一案剛也有跟陳委員報告中間的那邊第10列那邊有一個跨乎寶林茶室食安中毒事件前五個字就是更為嚴重之建議要刪除然後在最後這一句就是倒數第二行從儘速提出這邊開始改成評估提前然後"},{"start":12477.973,"end":12491.62,"text":"最後這一行召開本來有緊急食安會報建議把緊急兩個字拿掉然後最後的需求三個字也拿掉最後這一句變成評估提前召開食安會報好 陳委員好 那就按修正通過來第二案"},{"start":12501.311,"end":12517.161,"text":"那第二案的部分在倒數第二行有文字的修正那我們就是希望可以改為強化人員培訓及相關教育訓練逗點之後就接增資源等等這樣"},{"start":12520.246,"end":12549.446,"text":"剛剛是勉強OK勉強同意因為已經很多委員提出來你們最缺的是人力培訓你們現在本來就有在做啦人力這個都有留著對就是本來是強化人力禁用及專業久任那我們把它改成強化人員培訓及相關教育訓練因為你們沒有像社工一樣去盤點他覺得他自己需要多少人你們覺得他需要多少人以至於現在這個缺口很大"},{"start":12550.407,"end":12556.974,"text":"所以我想你的當務之急應該是人力而不是培訓但是培訓你本來就有在做你把它寫進來也OK好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":12559.301,"end":12586.141,"text":"好 那就按修正通過來 第三案好 第三案第三案也是有文字的修正在第二段的第二行那前面第一行的後面那是評估然後我們再來是把建立雲端資料庫這裡改掉就改為評估改善系統自動試景然後皆知可能性好 按修正文字通過好 謝謝委員第四案"},{"start":12587.168,"end":12599.235,"text":"那第四案的部分有一些文字的修正那第一個就是在第一段的第二行那上面是寫其中近九成要修訂其中七件"},{"start":12600.6,"end":12604.563,"text":"請求改成恐影響國民食用、健康食品"},{"start":12625.697,"end":12630.581,"text":"第二段的部分就是本來是說未不於一個月內那我們是希望可以是三個月內"},{"start":12653.703,"end":12681.654,"text":"那好好徹底檢討喔 是 出來的報告也要可供檢視喔 好好 那就文字案修正後通過 來第8案 好 謝謝然後第8案第8案這裡第8案這裡在第二段的倒數第三行那這裡本來是寫針對米類製品進行等等那我們改為針對食品中毒就是米類製品改為食品中毒"},{"start":12685.863,"end":12687.905,"text":"第9案也是文字修正在第一段"},{"start":12696.964,"end":12718.583,"text":"第5行老初之後那裡有一些文字修正室本來是目前人進行米酵菌酸檢驗中這裡改成直接目前人這裡劃掉因為我們已經都完成了就是跟各位報告是已經完成所以是進行米酵菌酸檢驗"},{"start":12720.441,"end":12748.652,"text":"然後到這一段的最後一行這裡寫相關食材中能無所獲不受相關食材中米酵菌酸均未檢出因為我們實際上是這些食材都沒有檢出米酵菌酸是好那請問黃委員可以嗎好那就按修正文字後通過來第10案好謝謝第10案的第三段有文字修訂"},{"start":12750.27,"end":12767.714,"text":"所以這裡就跟各位報告是對此要求衛福部立即檢討一個月我們家一個月內建立諸如產品責任險相關保險資訊那後續這裡是員工體驗這裡是要劃掉的要劃掉員工體檢報告進貨單據這些資料到這裡是要劃掉的"},{"start":12774.775,"end":12778.036,"text":"可以嗎?好,那就按修正文字通過臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來我們請楊耀委員進行發言"},{"start":12809.639,"end":12829.056,"text":"好,謝謝主席。主席我請一下薛部長。好,請薛部長。主要署長、署長、各位署長、副署長或組長覺得應該幫部長回覆的就可以自行上來。"},{"start":12831.057,"end":12835.598,"text":"部長我們剛剛探討電價齁那我其實是覺得蘇貞昌委員剛剛講的部分的區域醫院的電價漲了以後確實對於他們的經營會有一些困難齁這個部裡面"},{"start":12851.662,"end":12876.253,"text":"部裡面可能要想辦法看怎麼讓各醫療層級的醫院都可以很平順的運作我們有向行政院提出說醫界有這樣的訴求當然最後還是要行政院依照相關的規定來做剛剛講的是區域醫院,那地區醫院現在有沒有結論?"},{"start":12877.509,"end":12882.133,"text":"目前都還沒定案就是對於比較經營上比較困難的醫院電費的調整確實是一個很大的問題請部長盡力的溝通部長我們今天還是要"},{"start":12901.465,"end":12919.525,"text":"要來講寶林茶室的問題就是說寶林茶室的中毒案大概已經造成兩個國人的死亡然後多名重症患者大概都有檢出來罕見的"},{"start":12922.912,"end":12949.247,"text":"米肖峻酸像何美鄉老師他大概有講過國際間像印尼、非洲、中國大概都有發生過像類似的台灣因為有很多食品的原料都是進口所以在這個"},{"start":12952.642,"end":12977.662,"text":"在米酵菌酸的應該是透過食物鏈進來台灣目前是這樣子目前是我們大概在到29號我們的記者會果條香蘭葉再來米粉大概都沒有驗出來"},{"start":12980.144,"end":12994.239,"text":"殘留的都沒有驗出來對不對那有沒有可能是在添加物添加物例如說醬汁他有在使用的這一些添加物我們的也都驗了也是沒有驗出來也都驗了那接下來怎麼處理"},{"start":13001.892,"end":13026.063,"text":"因為現在剩餘的這些不管是食材或人家物都驗了沒有發現當然事實上病人身上又有發現所以應該還是在那一批這些人去食用的時候那一批裡面一定是有這個米酵菌酸這個應該是跑不掉"},{"start":13027.023,"end":13053.913,"text":"只是說它怎麼樣產生出來的因為在我們扣案下來的這些都沒有驗出來所以可能有的都已經被吃完都被吃完了如果沒有吃完了大概也都丟棄了那所以現在的調查就是在於說那這一些怎麼會跑出來到底是在處理過程或者是保存的過程"},{"start":13054.873,"end":13073.38,"text":"有讓他有機會會有這個米酵菌酸的產生這是我們現在在調查的一個重點就是說傷害的結果是有了嘛那原因的所有的可能證據現在我們都找不到了"},{"start":13074.22,"end":13097.199,"text":"對,就是說可以推論的比較確定的一個東西是第一個大概就是米酵菌酸引起的因為這一些病人都有驗出來這些嚴重的死亡的病人都有驗出來所以這個是比較可以稍微確定的那第二個就是說這些病人共通的點就是都有吃過"},{"start":13100.081,"end":13117.686,"text":"這也是比較確定的至於剛剛講的香蘭葉不是每一個都有用那其他的也不是每一個人都有用比較共通的就是果條所以大概目前是focus在這樣子就是說到底那一批果條就19號到24號中間這一些果條它的"},{"start":13124.963,"end":13127.604,"text":"也就是說我們很難在這個事件裡面找到答案了"},{"start":13145.371,"end":13154.647,"text":"事後要去找這一個的話這個當然有它的困難點因為它幾乎沒有證物保存"},{"start":13157.695,"end":13177.353,"text":"那假如這個是這樣子的話那我們衛福部這邊如何的讓因為這個對於社會的衝擊還蠻大的就是說在米類的食物或澱粉類的相關食品到底要怎麼"},{"start":13178.494,"end":13205.786,"text":"因為他大概沒有辦法從外觀和氣味來分別我們怎麼讓一般的民眾知道說到底要怎麼防範這個大概是這樣子一般性的這些預防措施的話還是需要就是說本來我們這一類的食物像是米類或是果粉"},{"start":13206.986,"end":13228.505,"text":"或等等這些食物的話在一般的保存要怎麼樣保存這個我們會把這個指引做出來這是要給民眾參考的讓他們清楚但是針對於所謂的這一次的發生的這個果粉"},{"start":13229.332,"end":13243.211,"text":"那到底在操作的過程當中這個有沒有什麼可疑的問題產生的情形產生才會導致這個米香菌酸的一個產生這個是要給餐飲業的"},{"start":13244.452,"end":13267.214,"text":"這個要怎樣?給餐飲業得受指引這個目前還沒有辦法確定所以還是要等到進一步的調查然後再去猜測說最可能的原因是在哪裡然後再才能夠把它行出文字然後給這些餐飲業去調查就是寶林茶室這個案子因為我"},{"start":13269.036,"end":13285.825,"text":"我自己在想因為要再去做很多證明就是說我們用推論的因果關係是推得出來可是他比較沒有辦法有科學上的東西對 沒有辦法直接去證明對 那就變成"},{"start":13288.767,"end":13310.242,"text":"就變成這個案子很難做一個很清楚的釐清也因為這樣子所以我剛才才會跟部長建議說趕快把一般性的指引怎樣才比較不會再發生事故做出指引然後趕快向國人做個宣導跟業者應該要強化的就強化應該要稽查的就稽查"},{"start":13315.685,"end":13331.955,"text":"業者的部分當然是比較困難一點因為現在真正的原因還不知道但是假設說這個真正原因到後來也沒有一個結論的話那就是變成說在業者處理的過程當中的話必須要注意哪一些就會變成會比較廣泛一點"},{"start":13333.736,"end":13357.685,"text":"那當然業者的話會變成說受到的拘束就會比較多那對於他們在處理這一個食材然後他們的創意的發揮可能就會受到一些限制那這沒有辦法如果說最後出來的結果並沒有辦法去說確定到底是哪一個步驟哪一個流程是出問題的話那最後大概就會變成這個樣子"},{"start":13359.585,"end":13382.112,"text":"好我最後跟部長因為時間的關係跟部長建議一下就是日本小林製藥的紅麴相關產品其實它雖然我們沒有直接有紅麴的購入可是有一些藥品的材料是原料是從那邊來的所以要怎麼"},{"start":13387.513,"end":13408.785,"text":"要怎麼儘速的清查、回收,還有假如有必要的話怎麼協助消費者,像日本,因為他是日本的廠商嘛,這可能,假如有啦,有產生一些消費糾紛,可能我們部體這邊也必須要提供數。"},{"start":13410.401,"end":13423.371,"text":"這當然啦,我們一定會做協助,不過這個因為到目前為止還不知道到底它裡面是什麼樣的東西所以那個因果關係的判斷就會相當的困難好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝楊耀委員的質詢接下來我們請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":13439.131,"end":13441.552,"text":"主席有請部長好請薛部長委員好部長好那個寶林的食安事件目前其實民眾還是非常恐慌然後也很多的事情我覺得好像也是疑雲重重"},{"start":13461.118,"end":13483.247,"text":"我覺得大家很多資訊都有點搞不太清楚那我現在目前整理一些資訊想就教部長第一個有人就對米酵菌酸這個名稱就有意見了現在引起米製品業者的很多的一些影響也造成很多喜愛米製品的民眾的恐慌那到底它該不該叫米酵菌酸呢"},{"start":13484.891,"end":13499.024,"text":"這可以討論因為事實上這是我們大概直接從一些華文的文獻上面他們已有的一個範例把它採過來的但是是不是一個最好的一個範例我是覺得這有討論的空間"},{"start":13500.953,"end":13528.754,"text":"那當然從這邊再衍生下一個問題你看我們那個翻譯就是從就是說從可能大陸有這個案例就從這個部分過來那可是下一個問題就是現在很多討論就是說到底這個源頭是不是來自於境外因為目前看到就是包括印尼大陸跟莫桑比克都曾經有類似的案例那臺灣目前是首例對不對那這個源頭是不是來自於境外呢有沒有證據顯示"},{"start":13530.946,"end":13553.625,"text":"這應該是沒有證據顯示說它的來源就來自境外因為第一個當然這個所謂的唐昌普伯克氏菌的話在國內本來就有但是國內有的這個亞型的話又不會自己跑出來分泌這個米酵菌酸所以到底它的來源是從哪裡這其實也是還是一個問號"},{"start":13556.487,"end":13580.799,"text":"這個菌是否是從國外進來從哪一個地方進來有可能是從國外進來但是從哪個地方進來事實上現在是不知道我覺得這個資訊也很重要因為我現在看到很多綠營的朋友就是抗中保台魂上身你連是到底是從哪裡進來是不是臺灣本身就是既有的菌種產生什麼狀況通通不知道現在還沒有證實"},{"start":13582.06,"end":13606.278,"text":"馬上就抗中保台魂上升我看有的就直接講說是什麼從中國大陸那邊過來那我覺得大可不必啦那再下一個問題就想要說我想請教部長上次那個西部特羅的這個風波到最後的結論是什麼我看到最後停下來的結論就是說不排除有實驗室污染但也不能證明有實驗室污染嘛"},{"start":13606.892,"end":13616.536,"text":"沒有辦法直接有證據證明說這是一個實驗室污染但是其實也沒有辦法排除所以這個事情好像到現在為止我直接講好像變懸案了"},{"start":13618.97,"end":13642.317,"text":"未解嘛可以,某一個程度是可以這樣解那我現在擔心下一個問題其實我看這個不管是我們這個部長你們這邊還有各縣市政府目前整理出來其實你該檢驗大家都檢驗完了吧對不對差不多可是就是沒有發現到底是哪個來源來的"},{"start":13643.817,"end":13668.12,"text":"那請問目前為止我們政府能做的還剩下什麼還是必須要進入調查因為目前可以確定的就它是米消菌酸引起來的第二個可以確定的是這些病人所共同的食用的東西的點就是果條目前就是這樣但是果條的來源的廠商都沒有驗得出來"},{"start":13669.783,"end":13696.489,"text":"它的添加物也都沒有所以現在調查的重點就是究竟說在發生事情的時候這些當時被吃進去的這些果條到底做了哪一些的處理還有它的保存到底是什麼樣子也許那些才是產生米酵菌酸的一個條件"},{"start":13697.449,"end":13717.256,"text":"那這個部分的話還在調查大概需要多少時間因為這個是在檢察官的手上在調查的事項大概是這個我直接講結論啦我看到部裡面很多的說法那當然民眾會擔心到最後如果你沒有辦法查到源頭的話那不是又變成一樁懸案"},{"start":13718.616,"end":13740.827,"text":"有可能那其實真的民眾很無奈啊但是不管怎麼樣我們知道說他是果條來的那其他的製品大概就可以那個風險就變少那果條會經過什麼樣處理的過程才會產生這個東西不管怎麼樣我們調查出來的結果一定是說他曾經經過"},{"start":13742.929,"end":13757.323,"text":"這個廚師怎麼樣去處理我最後問你一個問題目前大家說下毒的可能性我看布里說認為是不高嘛對不對不高所以看起來就是應該是米酵菌栓的狀況不知道什麼樣的一個處理的過程那產生出來的"},{"start":13757.904,"end":13782.814,"text":"那這個部分的話如果說最後沒有一個確確的答案的話那就是這整個處理過程我們就會加以警示說以後不能採用這樣子的方法應該用什麼樣的方法謝謝部長其實最後就一個結論啦不要讓它變懸案懸案最可怕好嗎好謝謝好謝謝羅志強委員接下來我們請洪孟凱委員進行諮詢"},{"start":13790.953,"end":13792.794,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請薛部長好有請薛部長好部長辛苦齁還是一樣針對這部分為什麼剛剛的那個臨時提案本席也特別在這邊來瞭解因為上一次本席在這邊就是本席質詢的時候講說如果說這個業者他已經超過時間沒有投保的話"},{"start":13818.385,"end":13837.248,"text":"是最高可以罰3萬到300萬那為什麼會讓這個這一次的這個寶林茶坊的業者可以從去年他的這個保險就過期並且到今年等於是已經快有半年的時間那如果說凡事都要依靠地方政府來去做稽查來去做了解的話那這樣子我們"},{"start":13838.189,"end":13850.382,"text":"編再多的人力物業其實都沒有辦法所以最重點應該是每一個業者我們在做一個相關管理的時候其實他的保險的一個日期就應該是有效的可以來做一個系統性的一個追蹤嘛這點你認同嗎"},{"start":13852.082,"end":13856.525,"text":"有效期如果說能夠再多加一個欄位來去做追蹤管理那你系統用系統的方式去跳出來譬如說這個月什麼時候下個月有多少業者會到期"},{"start":13875.874,"end":13901.081,"text":"那相關是不是去了解說他們有沒有續保甚至我覺得如果說有的話也可以跟相關的單位一起來做一個結合來去做討論你用系統直接去管理重點在於是因為我們現在法令已經規定是說業者都要強制投保那所以說我們應該用系統來去協助幫忙是說你既然今天開業你的必須付出的成本其中一項就是包含這個投保"},{"start":13902.161,"end":13930.038,"text":"所以現在我們根據委員的提案我們會預計會在一個月之內把系統優化那也就是說我們希望說你的保單到期之前一個月就自動會跳出來檢視讓這個地方政府能夠知道那也許地方政府就可以在最近的一個月之內就去做稽查他們就可以去了解甚至說就可以示警然後來去做預防因為現在光"},{"start":13931.059,"end":13954.932,"text":"早上臺北市政府這邊有講到說寶林他們有四家店有可能都沒有投保所以說光沒投保的金額可能就會開罰高達千萬那這個負責人現在他如果說雙手一攤業績不好脫產那甚至我們剛剛有看到早上王必勝次長還講是說現在可能有四例現在在住加護病房的有兩例要換肝"},{"start":13957.196,"end":13965.761,"text":"那如果說要換肝的話,我們有辦法協助代位球場嗎?代位球場如果是從健保那邊是有可能的"},{"start":13967.27,"end":13994.028,"text":"什麼意思叫健保那邊有可能因為是這些醫療的費用是一定是從健保那邊先出來然後健保如果說有應該負責的人那健保署再代位去做這個球場再代位去代替這些病患然後再去跟這個業者來做球場是不是但如果說現在業者他沒有投保雙手一攤對那這個球場就會有困難"},{"start":13995.233,"end":14018.382,"text":"但是這樣就變成是一個問題跟漏洞其實我們再一次強調如果說過去的法令規定是說你開餐飲相關的行業本來投保公共責任險就是必要就是強制這是產品責任險對產品責任險你就已經有必要這是法令規定那你就不應該有空窗期也不應該是說我"},{"start":14019.636,"end":14028.408,"text":"平行事、僥倖心理我半個月沒有投保地方政府也沒有來積茶那一個月沒有來積茶乾脆我半年試試看"},{"start":14030.185,"end":14055.182,"text":"能混就混、能過就過,這樣也不好吧?對,所以現在就要補這個漏洞起來好,那部長我再請教我們現在這一次因為米酵菌栓啊大家也講是說這個我們國內是沒有樣品可是臨近的臨近包括中國大陸、東南亞國家其實也都發生過那我們針對是說實驗室裡面有這些相關的快篩試鏡產品資訊目前說只有34件食品快篩試鏡啊"},{"start":14060.405,"end":14068.512,"text":"是嗎什麼樣的食品快篩試劑現在看到媒體這邊有報導是說我們的食品篩檢資訊專業總共有34件食品快篩試劑的產品資訊編列在我們的本預算裡面"},{"start":14081.294,"end":14096.932,"text":"這個我們要了解一下因為一般來講所謂的快篩食品的快篩它能夠做的範圍是比較有限的那通常快篩只是在第一次的篩檢如果有問題仍然要進入我們的一個實驗室檢驗"},{"start":14099.895,"end":14122.23,"text":"所以快篩通常是用在比如說我們去做稽查的時候去試藏然後我們可以趕快來做大概是那一類的初步的篩檢那但是實驗室裡面我們的這個相關的樣品大家也講是說因為米酵菌酸其實過去這一兩年兩三年裡面不管中國大陸不管東南亞地區都有發生過那我們沒有準備"},{"start":14123.693,"end":14152.223,"text":"跟委員報告目前食藥署的這個實驗室裡面準備的標準品大概有7000多箱但是如果依照國際的它的這個所謂的食品的可能需要的有可以來備制的標準品大概2萬多種那我們不太可能說每一種都去備著在那裡部長你想到重點了你說國際的標準或者是相關一個規範因為一定是有一個標準嘛"},{"start":14152.783,"end":14153.143,"text":"這個我們會來做檢討 怎麼檢討 來部長"},{"start":14176.518,"end":14201.874,"text":"這一定是要有專業來協助部長因為本席有看到我們的署長講說當食藥署同仁驅車去彰化帶回標準品的時候看到快哭了媒體馬上講說其實真正落淚的應該是臺灣人民吧代表說食藥署對這種國外早生發生多起的米酵遜磚中毒事件毫無警戒毫無防備毫無準備那個也沒有多起啦其實case都很少部長"},{"start":14202.634,"end":14221.637,"text":"那就對了嘛你自己剛剛已經親口承認講說國外如果說以正常標準來講要兩萬件不是正常標準是說國際上面那國際上面那臺灣要不要跟國際接軌不是就是說這一個是本席今天提出來本席今天提出來的重點在於是"},{"start":14222.237,"end":14222.397,"text":"什麼時候會檢討出來?"},{"start":14251.556,"end":14270.963,"text":"我想我們會開這個委員會來做檢討可能要找這些專家可能要兩三個月的時間才能夠把它湊齊因為我們還需要survey說那鄰近的國家可能有哪一些的疾病可能會用到的然後這一個部分的話還是需要專業來做"},{"start":14272.603,"end":14273.003,"text":"我同意,在我還是"},{"start":14296.633,"end":14297.354,"text":"部長你說的,麻煩你,謝謝"},{"start":14320.854,"end":14327.117,"text":"好謝謝黃孟楷委員因為等一下還有多位委員要質詢喔所以黃珊珊委員發言結束後先休息5分鐘謝謝主席請薛部長好請薛部長委員長"},{"start":14345.089,"end":14364.416,"text":"是部長我想這個案子寶林事件發生之後臺灣人為什麼會這麼害怕因為我們實在是一個米製品無所不在的社會也就是說米製品是每天人民日常生活一定要做的一定會使用到的東西然後果條又是非常普遍的民生"},{"start":14365.276,"end":14370.539,"text":"有關這個所謂的保險保險的部分沒有辦法做好提醒那衛生單位還要去現場稽查才知道他過期這件事情後面的怎麼補救"},{"start":14386.931,"end":14403.776,"text":"這部分的話我們會優化我們的這個非得不可的這個系統因為所有的這應該投保的都應該會登到那上面去我們希望就是說優化的方向是讓他在保單到期前一個月就能夠檢視"},{"start":14404.956,"end":14431.281,"text":"所以除了你們這邊之外其實今晚會產險工會他可以協助很多的事項我的意思是說以後應該是地方政府包括保險局包括產險業產險工會他來完整的建立一個類似的平台而這個平台不是單單只有衛福部要自己跑去登錄你可能除非他登錄之外你可能還要有一個背後可以直接查核的機制你同意嗎"},{"start":14433.095,"end":14459.018,"text":"當然要連結到茶盒機制的話那這相關的這一個其實工會都應該會很樂意協助啦如果按照現在的儀化的過程其實這些並不困難只是時間需要建置一些聯繫的方式這些資訊怎麼樣pass過去才不會又有一些所謂的研業秘密啦沒錯現在其實採檢工會跟醫院他們有一個用"},{"start":14459.974,"end":14488.063,"text":"區塊鏈的技術把這些相關的資訊做一個連結那公會來協助政府部門或者是甚至現在醫院已經有這樣的系統我覺得衛福部可以在產品責任險還有這些相關的意外必須保的險強制上面找產險公會來做個平台那我們可以來跟他們來這第一點第二點就是在食安問題發生之後其實最常見的是事前的通報或者是抽檢事中現在的處理接下去是事後的補償"},{"start":14489.443,"end":14504.983,"text":"那這個案子發生之後我們比較中間看到一個非常憂心的就是當時有新聞說家屬想要告醫院這個事情造成了非常多的醫療院所非常的恐慌那我想大家一看到這個新聞也覺得非常的詫異對於"},{"start":14506.605,"end":14534.381,"text":"家屬來說他當然會有他的主張但是對於我們所謂的急重症第一線的醫護人員還有醫院還有將來尤其這個案例非常特別他幾乎是沒有潛力所以要讓第一線的醫療人員能夠判斷出這是什麼樣的菌種他要做什麼樣的醫療作為這個其實是在醫療糾紛可能我們現在的現來的機制會沒有辦法Cover掉這一塊你同意嗎"},{"start":14535.689,"end":14564.289,"text":"事實上這個案子裡面後來家屬也曾經說他從來沒有說要告醫院所以那是媒體的一個誤傳對這個部分我們也希望說能夠導正社會的視聽但是還是回到原點醫療糾紛讓很多的醫護人員不願意在第一線因為醫病關係很對立第二個高風險的科別也造成了他們對於這個工作的熱情的減損所以我們現在看到現在是"},{"start":14566.871,"end":14580.382,"text":"醫療事故預防跟爭議事件處理法這個部分已經通過那將來只有通過一個叫做先經過調解調解不成才能提告但是你覺得對於醫病關係有沒有辦法做到改善"},{"start":14581.788,"end":14609.108,"text":"應該會有幫忙這剛剛委員所提到這個所謂的醫癒法當然是今年就開始執行的那他還有一個前段的也就是說一發生這類的事件的時候那醫院會出面來跟這一個病方來做一個關懷部長我想討論一下就是賴清德總統他在2006年立委的任內其實也提過類似有點像"},{"start":14611.772,"end":14637.492,"text":"無過失補償的制度也就是說當醫院碰到類似的部分先不要去追究責任而是怎麼樣先讓家屬有一定的補償的機制然後能夠減少所謂後面醫療糾紛的提告而且之前在2012年曾經也提過相關生育事故爭議的事辦辦法而且後來也推出了手術跟麻醉事故的爭議事件事辦辦法都有效的減少了所謂醫療的訴訟"},{"start":14639.133,"end":14668.101,"text":"所以部長我們針對類似的狀況能夠保護醫療人員其實我們可能必須要考慮採取所謂的無國師補償的制度這個部分可能也是衛福部將來要為我們醫療人員做爭取的這個範圍無國師補償範圍除了剛剛委員所提到生產事故之外其他要擴張出去的話是非常有疑慮的其實醫界是反對是所以這個部分可能我的意思是說我們今天要"},{"start":14668.621,"end":14695.378,"text":"假如今天發生類似的狀況我們要怎麼保護醫療人員也是我們必須要去思考的部分但是吳國施補償並不是醫界能夠普遍接受的一個方法所以我們希望說希望能夠更務實的來解決醫療糾紛的問題所以這個醫療預防的醫癒法開始執行我們也希望他能夠有效的解決醫療人員的困擾所以這一個部分的話是有機會啦謝謝"},{"start":14697.859,"end":14699.281,"text":"好謝謝我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":15007.469,"end":15010.552,"text":"好我們繼續開會接下來我們請陳培宇委員進行質詢好謝謝主席那有請部長好請部長好謝謝薛部長"},{"start":15029.844,"end":15029.864,"text":"餵吶"},{"start":15049.505,"end":15060.696,"text":"好那我們來看一下根據我們現在有的資料呢食品科食品技師他們在整個國家考試當中他們是排名第二2500多位可是在專業的這個換發執照職業部分他們人數卻是零部長你知道這個狀況的原因是為什麼嗎"},{"start":15068.584,"end":15083.323,"text":"好 因為他們現在在相關的法規當中他們沒有辦法成立所謂第三方機構沒有辦法作為這個單獨驗證的機構他們必須要受雇於私人企業民間團體或是政府機關其實這個現象很有問題那後續我們再來看另外一個事情"},{"start":15084.224,"end":15098.806,"text":"如果我們來看這個食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度如同我們這個投影片上秀出來的那第一個階段呢是食品業者必須自主管理第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核最後才是政府機場可是呢"},{"start":15099.767,"end":15104.368,"text":"我們來看一下到底誰要進入所謂第三方驗證機構的查核在這個相關法規裡面規定的是這個我的紅色框框裡面例如說資本額3000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業這些這些這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模所以我們來看一下這個問題到底是什麼"},{"start":15117.372,"end":15131.921,"text":"其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有60幾萬家可是可以進到我剛剛投影片說這個第二層被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品的業者目前只有626家也就是說60幾萬比照626家其實有將近99.9%的民間業者他們必須進行這個"},{"start":15141.707,"end":15160.772,"text":"自主管理所以也就是說整個食品業者的管理裡面有這麼多要依靠他們部長你覺得聽到目前為止您覺得有哪些問題其實我們這第三方院政機構就是說第二級的評管的這個部門是國內相當欠缺的"},{"start":15161.938,"end":15191.378,"text":"目前有4個啦部長跟你報告這邊4個驗證機構但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告回過頭來看其實我們已經現在光是到111年年底已經有2000多位食品科食品技師他們已經經過國家高考可是募照現行的法規他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的職業的驗證所以有沒有機會我們就直接說有沒有機會我們認為目前所有食品技師都受雇在企業之中"},{"start":15191.778,"end":15202.522,"text":"他們要嘛就是要拿出自己的良心然後檢舉他們的老闆或者部長你覺得會有什麼可能性如果他們檢舉這個老闆可能他們自己會失業或者是他們的老闆可能甚至為了防堵他們雖然請了他們在裡頭根據法規的規定可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心把他們當成橡皮圖章"},{"start":15213.626,"end":15238.166,"text":"呃"},{"start":15238.55,"end":15250.967,"text":"我覺得是這樣如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的就是說這一個老闆"},{"start":15256.594,"end":15282.269,"text":"但是因為我剛剛已經說了我知道部長您的擔心但是因為目前他們都被受雇在企業當中或是政府或是民間團體裡面可是就好像土木技師、會計師他們因為有這個第三方的驗證機構他們其實自己也要受到這個相關法規的規定那目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者包含食品技師還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求"},{"start":15283.189,"end":15303.475,"text":"但是因為今天有限,我們是不是可以請衛福部的三個月內規劃建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告,有沒有機會?三個月我不知道能不能弄出來,因為這個牽涉是蠻大的第一個,我個人認為不是說由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了"},{"start":15303.635,"end":15311.306,"text":"是當然他應該是要有機構啦是他必須要機構裡面專門在做二級評管的機構對目前有二級有四個他現在就說好這個機構的話要能夠取得民眾的信任對這個簽證才會有效沒錯對"},{"start":15318.996,"end":15345.217,"text":"那這四個機構目前有的是否就能夠是是得到民眾的信任我覺得目前他們得到民眾信任度應該是有的可是他們目前負責的量能就是那600多家假設我們還要提出更多他們的量能是會有困難這部分的話真的是最大問題是這樣以前有GMP嘛曾經嘗試用GMP去建立這個食品GMP的制度後來一個"},{"start":15346.118,"end":15348.679,"text":"那這個部分我們辦公室也會持續再跟衛福部討論好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席,謝謝好,謝謝陳貝育委員的諮詢"},{"start":15376.195,"end":15378.797,"text":"接下來我們請李坤成委員進行質詢謝謝主席我們請這一個薛部長好請薛部長"},{"start":15394.163,"end":15410.277,"text":"委員好部長好辛苦了先請教一下這一次引起寶林茶室中毒事件目前調查有可能是米酵菌酸我想部長我們可以先證明一下米酵菌酸跟米有沒有關係"},{"start":15411.627,"end":15430.53,"text":"事實上沒有太大的關係沒有關係嘛對不對可是因為是講米酵菌酸所以我們很多民眾現在對於米製品不管是貴亞、米台北很多米製品可能都會有一些心生恐懼我是想說今天開始之後我們關於這個米酵菌酸可不可以把它證明一下"},{"start":15431.01,"end":15452.998,"text":"你要用音譯也好或是用這個有些學者說這個是跟椰子有相關的椰酵菌酸我們可不可以今天開始就開始用這個其他的方式用至少用音譯的方式來做處理我們先讓食藥署這邊去找專家來討論就是說中文要怎麼翻譯我們在這裡開始就叫做BKA好不好"},{"start":15454.378,"end":15471.163,"text":"對啊,他的簡稱叫BKA啊BKA啊?好,BKA,好還是BAR,沒關係啦就至少不要一直重複講米,笑訓酸啦不然這樣大家對這個這個大家會有點疑慮我也都那個名字我老是記不起來那你知道這個名稱是從哪裡來的?"},{"start":15473.114,"end":15491.503,"text":"這個翻譯是從中國來的因為中國之前有類似這個案子那我第二個要問就是說這其實中國有這個類似的案子但是我們台灣對這個好像一無所知這是第一次對 那我是認為說不管是來自中國那還是說鄰近的亞洲的相關國家我們應該就對這一種"},{"start":15493.204,"end":15517.154,"text":"這也不算新型態的中毒案件了啦其實過去在中國或是像好像印尼都有那我是建議這個你們趕快找這個學者專家把這個鄰近的這個亞洲的國家那是不是有這種中毒的這個案例在臺灣沒有發生過的可不可以先做一個整理然後呢就是至少有一個資訊的平台大家先就是你們先有這個資訊平台"},{"start":15518.314,"end":15534.933,"text":"直到說這個新型態的這個細菌病毒然後需要什麼樣的這個標準體來做檢驗因為你說這第一次遇到那好像我們這個沒有這個類似的一個標準體來做檢驗我上次上禮拜問你還說這個要兩個禮拜還好後來我們彰化的醫院"},{"start":15538.738,"end":15555.291,"text":"對還有還好有所以我的第二個問題要問說可不可以我們做個整理有一個資訊的平台把鄰近的亞洲國家不一定是指中國這個把它相關的案件中毒案件我們做個整理然後該需要準備什麼標準品我們也做一個整理好不好"},{"start":15556.431,"end":15572.561,"text":"這可以來做了有沒有一個時間時間因為要整理要看很多文獻那這部分的話恐怕也不是我們這個食藥署的同仁就可以來附和的一定這種東西的話一定要請學界來幫忙那就是說"},{"start":15574.102,"end":15602.272,"text":"我們至少從現在開始要做啦不要說每次遇到一個新的就是說我們臺灣都沒有這個準備臺灣好像都被保護得很好但是鄰近國家如果有類似的這種病毒或細菌其實我們要預防啦不管是跟中國或是其他的國家委託學界來做這方面的一些設備啦至少也建立一個平台起來啦但是這還是需要這沒關係至少現在開始去做需要哪些標準品不夠的就趕快要去買好不好"},{"start":15603.112,"end":15624.59,"text":"那第三個要請教就是說因為現在齁這個食材簡體35件我聽這個王市長講齁都驗不出來都沒有驗出來那呢驗不出來那上一批的這個果條呢大家又吃下去了那你最後怎麼證明那就是這個上一批的果條出問題了我是擔心啊不要像這個臺中那一塊天選之肉"},{"start":15626.491,"end":15628.513,"text":"那不過他還是會逐漸的縮小這個範圍也就是說"},{"start":15655.424,"end":15682.85,"text":"因為現在就是說那個口條嘛那現在我聽王市長講說有相關的條件現在就是要去培養說有沒有那一個細菌出來但是你那個從這一個廚師在保存到他的一個烹調的過程當中到底是什麼樣的因素造成說可以產生這一個VA出來這個事情就是現在在調查的重點那並不一定"},{"start":15683.806,"end":15690.737,"text":"最後會有一個確定的答案因為這個已經事過境遷了那最快結果哪時候會知道勒這個"},{"start":15695.442,"end":15719.484,"text":"兩三個禮拜跑不掉就是說最後的我們的結論不管是說有查到還是查不出來那兩三個禮拜 盡快啦 因為這個大家會有點擔心那希望說在兩個禮拜時間我們能夠把結果提出來出來一些就是說指引那把這個擔心民眾的這種不安的範圍把它縮小"},{"start":15720.145,"end":15720.685,"text":"接下來我們請徐巧興委員進行質詢"},{"start":15746.255,"end":15751.245,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請薛部長跟吳署長好,請部長跟署長委員好"},{"start":15756.364,"end":15783.555,"text":"部長想先請教你們最近工作時數有沒有變比較長因為食安事件的關係我們一向都很長一向都很長那我們衛福部跟食藥署的公務人員晚上有沒有加班比方我看你們3月26號晚上跟臺北市政府聯合機場都八九點的時候加班是經常的事加班是經常的事喔好我們看一下這個照片好不好我也以為你們加班是很經常的事情結果沒有想到我們的王必勝次長在3月29號的晚上"},{"start":15785.996,"end":15803.541,"text":"原來他還有空這個到變形蟲爵士樂團去唱唱跳跳那地方雞茶園苦不堪言半年來五大食安議題那包含是從雞蛋啊然後這個希普特羅啊然後一路到了蘇丹紅跟這個哇這次的寶林案"},{"start":15806.562,"end":15818.143,"text":"在3月29號的晚上王必勝次長還在這邊跟大家拍大合照在這個現場唱唱跳跳的談笑風生我想問一下部長您覺得這樣子的社會觀感好嗎"},{"start":15820.818,"end":15839.959,"text":"這是個人的時間這沒有什麼好好沒有我問的是社會觀感我沒有說他有違法或違規社會觀感就不應該問我你覺得社會觀感不歸衛福部長的是瞭解了非公務的玩樂行程在下班之餘如果不在乎社會觀感的話那我也尊重我尊重盡量去玩大家都去玩好了"},{"start":15840.54,"end":15857.399,"text":"但是我們也發現相關的圖片已經但是你看啊這對你們很不公平你們都說你們經常性的加班然後都很辛苦我也知道我們衛福部食藥署還有地方的稽查人都很辛苦所以看到這個畫面的時候嚇一跳那"},{"start":15857.879,"end":15880.451,"text":"王次長如果他自己覺得這是我下班之後我想去哪去哪我尊重但我們也發現相關的圖片已經刪掉一些只剩下一張這個大合照隱藏在這個臉書裡面那我想如果他們覺得沒有問題的話應該就不需要刪文了我想這種照片會露出來的話是很奇怪沒有他們樂團自己PO的"},{"start":15883.189,"end":15903.389,"text":"對啊,這個樂團自己PO他只是做他的一個廣告嘛對,但我問的是說我不是說他不能PO照片我是說這個時候還去其實我知道很多包含是地方政府的重要首長現在也都晚間時間因為因應這兩條人命社會觀感來說很多行程也都會考量社會觀感但"},{"start":15903.809,"end":15919.03,"text":"王必勝市長他對於社會觀感的認知如何我完全尊重我完全尊重我只是提出來覺得這個很奇怪那臺北市的我覺得很奇怪你可以覺得不奇怪這個我沒有意見但是我覺得追究這種事情是也是"},{"start":15919.07,"end":15941.277,"text":"沒有沒有沒有追究沒有追究我只是很好奇說在這個時間點上我們的次長還跑去這個吃吃喝喝玩玩樂樂他們對於社會觀感的理解可能跟我們一般民眾來說是很不一樣的尤其像我們不管是臺北市或是新北市的稽查人員最近的離職率都很高因為大家的工作很辛苦最後我想問一下強制食品安全責任保險法的問題"},{"start":15942.837,"end":15964.22,"text":"剛才這個衛福部長也說到了交代食藥署在非燈不可系統當中加注產品責任險的到期時間並且在到期一個月前跳出警示提醒地方政府察覺那你們說會在一個禮拜之內完成一個月之內完成可是這個系統目前就我的了解"},{"start":15964.741,"end":15984.748,"text":"他的後台資料只有衛福部有權限可以統一的去撈取如果地方政府這是我剛才去查核的結果地方政府只能針對個別的廠商點選資料他沒有系統性的比如說我們針對好這個所謂的保險時間超過的部分一次性的撈否則的話要透過像"},{"start":15985.548,"end":16013.243,"text":"呃,承辦人跟局長的雙重確認請問這個問題後續會處理嗎?對,所以優化這個系統的時候就是必須要讓地方可以看得到所以現在還不行嗎?現在是單筆嗎?有部分啦,所以我們現在是希望就是說為了這一個系統,優化之後一定要讓地方能夠看得到,不然這一個控制就沒有太大意義這一點特別強調是因為剛才我看到您說的之後我開始去向各個地方政府去查核"},{"start":16013.703,"end":16017.025,"text":"發現他們都對您剛剛的說法非常的憂心因為如果系統沒有大規模的改正的話只能單筆單筆看這無異於是要讓這個地方政府針對6萬家一家一家的看所有項目有沒有問題這個我們會處理的不會說要他一家一家去這個說但是因為現在是這樣嗎"},{"start":16034.215,"end":16061.725,"text":"最後我要講一下剛才我們臨時提案裡面強調的包含我們今天這個召集人他也有講到所謂的比照強制汽車責任險部分跟我們現在目前的現狀還是有一個落差就是強制汽車責任險裡面第19條第二項寫得很清楚如果今天保險人所謂的保險業者他要在4個工作天內就把承保的資料傳到主管機關跟中央主管機關裡面那如果沒有做的話還會有罰則"},{"start":16063.246,"end":16070.423,"text":"但是我們目前是業者自行去登打那請問他後續的查核他自己打的那請問要怎麼查確保說"},{"start":16072.411,"end":16101.25,"text":"因為我跟你講強制汽車責任險他是由保險業者去登那我們現在是由業者去登那你們有沒有思考過中間會不會有一個落差這當然可以來研議啦是不是讓這個保險公司來登這當然可以研議不過因為這個食品的這個產品責任險的話他的範圍沒有像強制汽車責任險那麼大"},{"start":16102.711,"end":16105.252,"text":"謝謝許曉欣委員的諮詢接下來我們請張家俊委員進行諮詢"},{"start":16138.897,"end":16157.012,"text":"主席我想請部長請薛部長部長本日所報告的三項食品問題有蘇丹紅案、寶林茶室案、小林製藥的紅麴案這三個案件尤其是前兩項都有一個共通點請問部長是否可以分析出來共通點因為這三個案子都不太一樣"},{"start":16163.34,"end":16191.563,"text":"這三個案件的共通點就是國外都曾經發生過或者是國外正在發生的那請問部長對於你們處理這三個案件的方式您滿意嗎?您給自己評幾分第一個當然是蘇丹紅的這一個案子的話如果後面回想起來的話我們是不滿意的因為當時在邊境的管制上面有稍微"},{"start":16192.143,"end":16207.557,"text":"是不滿意我覺得你也算是蠻老實的就是說在我看來在我看來真的是不及格真的是非常的差強人意第一蘇丹紅的事件國外早就多次爆發早在2003年法國就已經發現"},{"start":16211.701,"end":16211.941,"text":"臺灣一直到今年"},{"start":16230.851,"end":16233.593,"text":"台灣已經落後了將近20年這是不是代表說其實我們也默默了吃了20年我們都沒有發現"},{"start":16252.425,"end":16267.9,"text":"衛福部是沒有網路嗎還是都沒有update將毒物拒絕於境外不是關起來關起門來說沒事我不希望衛福部是一個鴕鳥的心態說國外發生的事我們只要不發生都當作不存在那剛剛這個"},{"start":16270.854,"end":16294.959,"text":"大家都在問有關於這個寶林茶室案就是米酵菌酸你現在剛才說什麼BKABKA已經多次在中國在香港在越南都有發生過但衛福部卻連標準品都沒有是在印尼不是越南印尼印尼好就是衛福部連標準品都沒有這是為什麼"},{"start":16296.667,"end":16302.929,"text":"在臺灣就沒有發生過沒有要因應就是國際我想衛福部應該要有點國際的敏感度你不能夠應該扮演這個食安的守護神卻變成食安守護神省錢民眾的安全都被你衛福部省了這一次寶林事件發生之後又急著要進口就是要進口結果才發現說是張機"},{"start":16324.654,"end":16339.008,"text":"醫院才曾經進口過你們才有辦法最快速的拿到這個標準品那請問部長是不是知道坊間有米酵菌酸的快速檢驗卡可以快速知道說這個食品是否有毒你知道有這個東西嗎沒有"},{"start":16339.605,"end":16360.881,"text":"沒有?你不知道?不知道那所以呢本席在這裡建議喔是不是能夠趕快研究一下要進口這個是否可以研議一下進口然後納入這個考量那第三點喔我們會去查一下是否有這種東西但是有沒有這種東西的話我是相當存疑的"},{"start":16361.201,"end":16364.103,"text":"是,對啊,我也是,我也聽說坊間有,我看到圖片,我今天圖片沒有帶來,但是這個圖片呢現在發生事情有很多都是那種假消息在到處我第三點喔,我接下來繼續問第三點,就是小林製藥的這個紅麴案紅麴案就是,就是3月22日,小林製藥宣布回收紅麴相關製品"},{"start":16385.481,"end":16393.745,"text":"但衛福部一直玩了一週到3月29號才告訴大家請問一下部長這是為什麼為什麼我們會這麼慢沒有玩啊為什麼會玩你們3月29號才發才發新聞稿欸所以呢這三件這三件食安事件一定要清除沒有我可以我告訴你這是我在你衛福部網站上查的"},{"start":16413.815,"end":16432.806,"text":"衛福部網站是3月29才正式發新聞稿所以這三件食安事件可以得知衛福部不但是後知後覺而且甚至是不知不覺甚至要到國人的生命安全受害了才會有反應這根本就是草菅人命政策殺人"},{"start":16436.369,"end":16443.235,"text":"衛福部難辭其咎部長你在這裡跟我辯論有什麼意思人命關天都死了都死了都已經都死了你知道嗎沒有我的意思是你自己去查你衛福部的你衛福部的"},{"start":16453.624,"end":16456.407,"text":"我確認非常清楚3月29號3月25也慢了三天了那也慢了三天了為什麼你們沒有辦法及時呢及時是不是我的意思是說你行政部門最基本應該要盡到的責任行政機關"},{"start":16473.544,"end":16476.827,"text":"不道歉就算了還推諉說你們沒有辦法一一做到部長你覺得這是我們國人想要看到負責任的食安部門官員所應該有的態度嗎人民不要拿命來賠的時候不要人民拿命來賠的時候你們才有所動作我覺得你們對國際相關的案件的敏感度跟關注度必須要高一點"},{"start":16496.002,"end":16506.244,"text":"才能夠保障我們人民的生命安全好不好謝謝好我們謝謝張家俊委員的質詢接下來我們請楊瓊英委員進行質詢謝主席本席想邀請薛部長好請部長委員好"},{"start":16521.274,"end":16533.487,"text":"部長好好我很少看到你這麼激動啊而且你反質詢我沒有反質詢這個很少看到你這樣子你是不是因為最近的食安真的讓你焦頭爛額"},{"start":16535.328,"end":16560.978,"text":"還好啦還好喔?你還笑得出來喔?阿我們的民眾都嚇到咧除了吃的人不安心你先聽我講完你不要再反質詢我沒有說你笑跟不笑怎麼樣不對請不要如此你是身為我非常敬重的衛福部部長我們的人民已經笑不出來啦吃什麼會嚇"},{"start":16562.919,"end":16580.187,"text":"同時賣東西的人也很無辜你知道嗎?貴家住的吃貴家住的說我們本來可以吃很多人早餐都吃這個現在都不敢吃政府要不要告訴民眾吃還是不吃安不安全請教部長"},{"start":16584.174,"end":16600.171,"text":"請教部長請教部長好現在我們就是在處理這個問題那我們確定這個案子它的來源就是所謂的BKA也就是一般講米硝菌酸"},{"start":16601.192,"end":16623.333,"text":"是他的毒性的來源那目前看到的就是只有侷限在寶林茶室這一家而且他的食用的時間是從就是說一定的時間裡面去的才發生這個事情所以現在我們就進來調查目前"},{"start":16624.914,"end":16647.552,"text":"調查的方向就是到底這一個所謂的鮭鴨條因為只有這些病人的共同點叫做食用鮭鴨條這些鮭鴨條在處理的過程當中到底有沒有什麼條件去產生這個VKA這個米酵菌酸現在調查的方向是這樣那除此之外其他的米製品"},{"start":16648.584,"end":16669.934,"text":"我們包括說從它的來源去的這個廠商去做調查通通沒有驗出來所以基本上不會是一個大量的擴散的一個案件所以原則上是民眾應該是對米製品的話是可以放心的這是目前的但是"},{"start":16670.885,"end":16690.404,"text":"米製品除了這其實也不是米製品就除了這個粿仔條他會產生就這個案子產生這個米消菌酸之外的話其實所有的不管是米製品粿仔條他的保存都還是必須要注意因為這個是容易腐敗的"},{"start":16691.385,"end":16702.502,"text":"那不是產生米酵菌酸而是可能產生不當的保存可能產生其他的微生物等等這些那這個我們也必須要對民眾去做交易"},{"start":16703.539,"end":16721.827,"text":"對民眾去做教育民眾要的是安心我之所以運用一分半的時間給部長你來說明我們真的不希望看到民眾的恐慌民眾當吃下去之後看到新聞這看著說這不行的真的不知道要怎麼辦也吐不出來的要怎麼辦"},{"start":16723.007,"end":16749.983,"text":"甚至你剛才說的口誤也好米製品我走一下甚至有人拿了一碗米飯說這個跟米酸酵素沒有關係對不對民眾已經在自保政府有什麼作為政府有什麼作為請告訴我們我們每天都看的哪一個在ICU病危是並不樂觀的民眾會不會恐慌我們到底我們的腳程到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾原因出在哪裡"},{"start":16751.251,"end":16763.615,"text":"對,那原因現在正在調查當中,我們也希望能夠把它找出來,到底是在哪一個過程當中產生的部長,我們這樣子的事件,這樣多久時間了?這樣多久時間了?通報上來是24號嘛對啊,這樣多久時間了?差不多一個多禮拜"},{"start":16771.466,"end":16781.592,"text":"這樣一個禮拜多我們民眾現在非常恐慌民眾非常恐慌所以部長本來是具體告訴你我們的偵測跟預警要怎麼樣去做要怎麼樣告訴民眾這是我們要替民眾所要問的政府可以告訴他我吃什麼才安心聯環報"},{"start":16797.183,"end":16801.49,"text":"連環報在這樣的情況一直報讓民眾非常的非常的恐怖耶對不對"},{"start":16803.072,"end":16818.977,"text":"委員這一個案子齁其實是沒有連環報大家有報的大概都已經出來了不是這一個案子是從巴西蛋到瘦肉到這什麼瘦肉精案一直到咖哩的問題蘇丹紅辣椒粉通通一直來政府當你看到有問題產生的時候你並沒有告訴民眾要怎麼樣讓他們安心是讓他一項一項一項一直報這怎麼辦"},{"start":16834.032,"end":16846.62,"text":"每一個案子都是獨立的個案他要處理的方式也都不一樣所以我們就一案一案來做我們是有政府的政府告訴我們說尤其行政院長告訴我們說食安五環你不要食安五個環節是變成食安五棟"},{"start":16852.475,"end":16879.883,"text":"對不對你一直笑一直不問人民都笑不出來我沒想到說你的表情是永遠這種表情嗎對不對你剛才這個情形你要怎麼樣告訴民眾啊而且現在地方基層喔我們看到喔這樣子這個你說每一個都是個案都是個案都一直爆他們要一起去出動我們要想他的業務讓他們吃不消那目前為止我們的離職率喔"},{"start":16880.843,"end":16897.013,"text":"李子北部大概36%在這樣情況之下我們中央政府對於地方政府的人力以及因應以及他的標準我們又怎麼樣協助他們嗎這當然還可以做檢討因為我必須要強調因為我們地方的稽查員是公務員"},{"start":16898.194,"end":16911.224,"text":"那公務員會受到這個總原料法的一個限制那怎麼辦呢所以我們會跟人總那邊再來做討論未來是不是在地方的稽查員的人數立即啟動好不好這個真的是不夠啊對不對"},{"start":16914.586,"end":16935.7,"text":"但是另外一個爭解是在地方因為他的人力這個人數仍然是編制在地方政府所以地方政府也要願意把這個人數提高那你們要提出方案呢你沒提出方案你是主旗最高的主管機關單位啊對不對我們盡量來爭取看看"},{"start":16939.055,"end":16939.916,"text":"接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員進行質詢"},{"start":16976.252,"end":16979.009,"text":"來謝謝主席我們有請部長好有請薛部長"},{"start":16984.181,"end":17011.682,"text":"委員好部長,事實上這個月來,從這個孽兒案到現在的食安問題,我想整個衛福部很忙尤其有時候地方政府做不好,人家毛肚也是都對尊令,所以你們要靠謀的事情這麼多所以這件事我先跟你說,辛苦,然後還是要繼續加油但是我待會要說的一件事,是部長就可以決定"},{"start":17012.583,"end":17027.671,"text":"阿我覺得這件事情可以讓衛福部省下很多工作沒有必要去管到一些衛福部不用再去大費心神去管的不然你可能知道我要說什麼了阿不然我應該就用這個機會跟部長說嘛就是現在這個IWIN的這個問題啦"},{"start":17031.866,"end":17048.347,"text":"我看最近也很多我們立委的同事都有在針對這件事那我先講前提啦前提就是說事實上從這個兒童性剝削的這個防治條例第二條的第三項他講得很清楚嘛"},{"start":17048.948,"end":17072.562,"text":"所謂這個兒童或少年的性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥的圖片語音或其他物品前提就在這個兒童或少年兒童或少年的性影像與性相關而客觀上足以的圖片足以引起性慾或羞恥的圖片所以重點是兒童跟少年"},{"start":17073.802,"end":17080.591,"text":"阿所以,保證我相信吼,第一啦,你家中比阿沒捏,咱家中的人最崇尚自由"},{"start":17081.561,"end":17082.221,"text":"本法所稱兒童是指未滿18歲之人"},{"start":17110.291,"end":17122.578,"text":"使之少年是指未滿18歲之人所稱兒童是指未滿12歲之人所稱少年是指12歲以上未滿18歲之人所以都說得很清楚他就在管人在管人所以進一步從兒少的這個權益保護法再擴散出去的兒少的性剝削繁殖條例保護的一樣是兒童這個人或者是少年這個人沒有問題吧"},{"start":17138.175,"end":17147.901,"text":"所以讓衛福部真的不要在此時此刻我們要忙這麼多事而且這些事都跟我們的民生有關我們不要去管理到創作的這一塊"},{"start":17149.514,"end":17168.408,"text":"我認為補充這一點就一定了當然衛福部之前可能在法令的解釋我們可能大家有一點我們的保護是有一點想要往前再多踏要走大步處理所以在文字上字面上有一點擴大解釋了這沒關係嘛擴大解釋確實你看這段時間也紛紛擾擾也很多人跳出來說哇這樣等於是以後我的所有的創作者我進入我變成會一個自我審查"},{"start":17178.516,"end":17202.877,"text":"那有侵害到了創作的、自有的一個本身啊引起人也有提出這樣的一個雜慮那我們也知道過去大法官解釋也針對所謂的硬蕊跟軟蕊軟蕊然後做好分級管理讓兒少不要去接觸到不屬於他們這個等級的人不屬於他們這個年齡應該去接觸到的東西這個分級管理如果做好沒問題啊"},{"start":17205.174,"end":17208.757,"text":"因為這個兒少性剝削條例裡面所使用的這些文字的話其實跟刑法235條是相關的相對應的"},{"start":17232.35,"end":17248.591,"text":"那所以說如果刑法上面不認為說所謂的這個圖像這個東西的話是包括這種二次元的創作的話那當然兒少性剝削條例也就不用去特別去做處理那這個必須要透過法務部這邊的解釋"},{"start":17249.292,"end":17252.053,"text":"我現在意思是說虛擬的人物這一塊對不對他本身他符合刑法235"},{"start":17266.44,"end":17288.852,"text":"符合刑法235有刑法235的告發的一個條件啊對啊他有刑法235那以後我們碰到我們變成要告發了這會更麻煩哦不會不會更麻煩回到刑法的回到刑法235條你現在你要用這樣的一個愛運這樣的一個機關然後你要去做一個管制的話基本上你給這個關節下去就是對這些人來說變成一個困擾因為任何人都會檢舉到愛運啊"},{"start":17293.915,"end":17309.685,"text":"可是要檢舉到法務部,法務部自然又有他那張詞來決定這個到底有沒有涉及到兒少性剝削。我們現在說的是虛擬人物。部長我跟你說,你不用懷疑的就是說因為虛擬人物會被提告的不會那麼多。"},{"start":17310.836,"end":17323.809,"text":"但是他如果涉及到真人的時候他就會被提告現在是政府機關看到了之後是他要去告發嗎?現在問題是在這都不是不用啊站在裡面不用這我不敢這樣講沒有沒有你之前在說兒少性剝缺他就是對於真實的人物刑事司法裡面義務告發是行政機關要負的責任"},{"start":17331.637,"end":17351.409,"text":"不在你們衛福部的管轄外委你們不用去主動告發沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦這這我們你這樣下去的話你會把這件事情OK統一解釋啦統一解釋不是由衛福部統一解釋因為那涉及刑法嘛所以不是衛福部來統一解釋好那所以我們是不是這件事可以喊STOP了啦"},{"start":17353.093,"end":17375.895,"text":"我意思是說在Iron的這件事情先把他喊個十八字然後回到讓法務部去就二三五條他們未來到底要怎麼面對虛擬人物的色情也許未來有一天虛擬人物的色情要被進一步的管制OK那必須要再由法務部來解釋或者是來修法如果我們對於虛擬人物我們是有意見的因為他涉及到色情暴力"},{"start":17376.736,"end":17401.346,"text":"我沒有意見,好,我們從那裡處理衛福部這一塊搜索回到真實人物,就是兒少法保護的一個範圍我是覺得說...我們來看一看,因為前陣子我們說行政機關已經發現到,要怎麼處理行政機關發的,就給法務部啊?不,給法務部去處理所以就問他怎麼告發,這樣就麻煩了並沒有規定你們這件事要依職權告發"},{"start":17404.798,"end":17405.718,"text":"接下來我們請陳英委員進行諮詢"},{"start":17441.084,"end":17444.728,"text":"好 謝謝 麻煩請衛福部部長好 請部長委員好"},{"start":17451.088,"end":17475.7,"text":"部長好今天一進這個委員會也蠻訝異就是看到這個變形蟲爵士樂團部長知道這個樂團嗎老實講我不知道這是一個就是純爵士還蠻專業的這個樂團那樂團的成員呢原先早期都不是就是像我一樣就是音樂訓練出身的但是他們"},{"start":17476.76,"end":17499.222,"text":"後天練習都還蠻專業後來有四位團員到Berkeley去做一些專業的學習跟訓練王必勝次長他其實是這個團的創團元老大家可能不知道他負責什麼樂器他是吹那個Auto Saxophone"},{"start":17500.223,"end":17516.641,"text":"所以那一天我想在雖然最近有很多的這個很辛苦的這個食安事件我想大家都加班的很辛苦那我想在這個份內工作做完之後那回頭去看看老朋友"},{"start":17517.642,"end":17536.721,"text":"給這些老朋友互相勉勵一下我想也不是什麼壞事啦而且就我自己本身學音樂的經驗我也鼓勵衛福部的各位同仁在壓力很大的時候你們也可以在工作做完之後那可以聽一些音樂來稍微"},{"start":17539.363,"end":17567.781,"text":"讓自己舒緩舒緩一下整理一下腦袋這樣會讓你們重新出發那隔天的時候可能會應該會有更清醒的這個更清楚的這個思維以上大概做一個簡單委員講的我非常的贊同那事實上不管怎麼樣我們面對問題的時候就是去解決問題但是並不表示說我們24小時都會都必須要綁在這個上面"},{"start":17568.641,"end":17570.483,"text":"是,所以我認為說用這種議題在做質詢的話我覺得這樣子是"},{"start":17593.343,"end":17593.903,"text":"我們回到我們今天質詢的問題"},{"start":17620.129,"end":17643.338,"text":"那個部長在這個2021年我在這裡有提到就是說有很多名人的照片被不肖的人士盜用那在網路刊登違規藥品的廣告那些違規廣告的這個廣告主IP都在中國但是我也要要求就是說要求衛福部那應該要主動跟那些大的網路社群平台溝通並且建立機制"},{"start":17643.718,"end":17659.395,"text":"那我想請教一下在本席質詢過之後呢你們跟臉書或者Google溝通過幾次那每次溝通的就是說這個時間點跟成效如何是不是可以請你們報告一下"},{"start":17660.736,"end":17673.636,"text":"在Meta這個部分還沒有達成什麼共識這個部分還是持續在溝通Google這邊我們Google應該還沒有吧Google應該還沒有"},{"start":17675.25,"end":17703.225,"text":"因為我的辦公室正式發函跟你們詢問這件事情你們回覆的內容只有說會不定期開會那這個對本席來講是非常不清楚的所以我想要了解就是說整個完整的內容然後大概有哪些時間點有跟哪個臉書哪些平台溝通討論的狀況是怎麼樣我希望是不是可以整理"},{"start":17704.565,"end":17731.533,"text":"讓本席瞭解一下這我們再整理一下再提供因為依照食藥署回覆本席的資料就是你們在去年跟臉書溝通然後建立一個下架違規藥品廣告的這個機制管道那部長你知道截至目前為止通報給臉書處理的有幾件嗎我是不是可以請署長好可以"},{"start":17733.964,"end":17745.884,"text":"委員好,那我們跟META這邊通報,那我們有事的意見齁,那他們通報了以後就立刻下架,對,事前的意見,對"},{"start":17747.989,"end":17774.067,"text":"對 食品的 針對食品的一個廣告我想是這樣子因為這個通報的數據就是因為只有一件可能會讓大家以為說我們現在網路平台上已經好像沒有什麼違規藥品的廣告現在網路都很乾淨然後大家很自律平台也都很配合但是事實並不是如此因為部長你看一下這個表格這也是你們提供給我的數據就是說"},{"start":17776.349,"end":17778.971,"text":"如果是藥的部分的話本來它就會比較少啦但是如果是食品"},{"start":17811.577,"end":17823.371,"text":"我同意,雖然我同意部長的說法,這個比例上應該是這樣沒錯,但是部長其實你只要在Google或臉書上一搜尋,就可以看到這個違規的廣告有一堆"},{"start":17824.172,"end":17851.1,"text":"那但是我是不明白就是說這個通報一件臉書而已齁那你再看一下我們接下來這幾張喔這位是名醫師邱振宏那大家只要搜尋一下他的名字一堆違規的廣告就會跑出來那我不曉得你們負責監控這個網路違規藥品廣告的人齁到底是怎麼監控的那我們也"},{"start":17851.94,"end":17866.016,"text":"就是可以到我們辦公室交換一下交換一下這個我們可以互通一下這個方法那這些廣告你們只要點選連結之後他就會跳到他們LINE的帳號那看一下這個照片LINE的帳號"},{"start":17866.857,"end":17885.122,"text":"那他們為了取信民眾他的帳號就是放邱振宏醫師與一些名人的照片那你在加入他的帳號之後呢你如果對他有所懷疑的時候你問他地址那他就會馬上跟你說那個地址而且那個地址呢也真的是那個邱振宏醫師的地址可是呢"},{"start":17885.842,"end":17902.506,"text":"他們會用各種話術跟你講說請你還是用電話跟他們聯絡那而且這個上面的電話就不是邱醫師整首的電話了他就是一個固網的區域電話那我有跟這個邱醫師的整首確認過這個帳號不是他們的那區域電話也不是他們的"},{"start":17905.687,"end":17918.885,"text":"這就是在賣違規藥品的帳號他們已經大膽到去申請這個區域電話所以會後我會把這個完整的這些電話給你們要麻煩你們特別去查清楚好不好"},{"start":17920.86,"end":17937.517,"text":"那再來就是說你們已經有跟平台談一下這個下架違規藥品的廣告的機制那我希望就是說應該也要連同跟這個平台要提到就是刊登這些違規廣告的假帳號應該要一併刪除好不好"},{"start":17940.279,"end":17968.369,"text":"那再來因為一般使用者都可以對於這個有問題的帳號向臉書檢舉所以我覺得為了這個國人的健康你們應該更應該要主動的跟這個平台來討論這個問題只要透過你們官方的這個通知的這個假帳號通知他們的假帳號而且確定帳號呢就是在刊登違規藥品的話呢就請平台可以快速的把帳號刪除在部長可不可以去談談看"},{"start":17970.378,"end":17989.523,"text":"那再來就是說因為你們邱振宏醫師的這個帳號隨便一搜尋竟然有上百個那些帳號都是用來刊登違規藥品的廣告那邱醫師診所他們有跟我講說常常民眾呢在這些假帳號上面買到中國的這個減肥藥品"},{"start":17991.263,"end":18012.159,"text":"好減肥藥然後就拿著拿著這些藥呢這些偽藥去診所找他們讓他們覺得非常的困擾所以我希望食藥署可以積極的跟網路平台溝通那你們目前也是只有跟臉書建立管道而已齁那大一點的平台那至少就還有google也還沒談那如果食藥署去跟平台談的時候假如不好談"},{"start":18013.3,"end":18022.093,"text":"我會建議說食藥署不行那就換衛福部去那衛福部如果不行的話那就再換行政院去反正就一定要把它談好就對了"},{"start":18024.988,"end":18050.009,"text":"最後就是說有關違規藥品分工的部分因為現在是你們現在的這個平面廣告由中醫藥師負責那電視、電台是由食藥署負責在監看這些違規廣告的時候再把案件依業務分類處理但是現在大家使用頻率最大最多的網路就是網路的部分你們還是各做各的"},{"start":18051.23,"end":18051.93,"text":"接下來我們請李燕秀委員質詢"},{"start":18089.42,"end":18089.44,"text":"委員長"},{"start":18098.786,"end":18125.703,"text":"部長好午安部長這個整個寶林茶室的案子現在累積通報已經有31件前幾天我們大家都在討論私底下我想媒體也都在討論就是說對於寶林這個A13這個餐廳所有的相關的信用卡或曾經消費有關行動支付等等我們有沒有去做一些疫情的調查後續有沒有追蹤"},{"start":18127.399,"end":18148.44,"text":"這個部分的話我記得應該是臺北市已經做臺北市已經有在做你們這邊有沒有具體的掌握90幾件我知道90幾件但是有聯絡到當然我們想辦法主動聯繫或有人回來但你們這邊有沒有充分掌握我們這個部分的話並沒有特別去掌握這個我覺得部長我覺得因為"},{"start":18150.582,"end":18178.119,"text":"現在到底是什麼原因我覺得還在釐清當中所以我覺得中央有必要進一步掌握為什麼我這麼說呢因為從臺北市政府檢查進貨的紀錄寶林茶室特別從3月12號、16號、23號各進貨20公斤的雞丫頭那由於唐昌伯克氏菌它在繁殖需要一天到兩天它才會生成米酵菌酸米酵菌酸這個東西它"},{"start":18179.58,"end":18199.156,"text":"需要兩天所以我算了一下時間最有可能的是3月16號那一批進貨的批次那我們都知道唐昌普伯克氏菌他其實有四種亞型其中只有一種才有可能生成這個我們的所謂的米酵菌酸就是野毒亞型"},{"start":18200.117,"end":18216.318,"text":"這就是野毒亞型但是我們最近長期在觀察很多人在觀察說從臺灣的土壤跟臺灣的植物其實都沒有發現到我們所謂的野毒亞型這個病毒在目前都沒有看到至少目前我們沒有聽過沒有查到所以"},{"start":18218.84,"end":18246.318,"text":"現在到底這個唐昌普伯克氏菌到底野毒亞型到底從哪裡來的到底是從餐廳來的從餐廳來的但他到底是怎麼樣進入廚房是不是有可能是餐廳然後進入廚房這是第一個問號這是第一個懷疑或者是在生產端就有了現在都不知道嘛現在不知道嘛那如果從生產端出來的那怎麼樣去排除他的風險"},{"start":18247.319,"end":18250.163,"text":"生產端那邊的我們也收集了他的簡體來驗也是沒有對 也沒有所以這也就是為什麼國安到現在"},{"start":18257.079,"end":18258.06,"text":"或者是常規檢測米酵菌酸"},{"start":18283.275,"end":18307.03,"text":"這個要看當然我們現在現在已經有了嘛米香菌酸現在已經有這個病毒嘛所以我才提出來說未來會不會做指引或做檢測 檢驗的方法跟指引這個是沒有問題現在只是說哪一些東西要做常規的檢驗你要不要想好這要等那個調查到一個程度才有辦法來規約這樣的事情"},{"start":18311.791,"end":18339.153,"text":"我覺得這個衛福部未來要去做準備因為你有母法地方才有可能稽查現在大家都人性化中央的重要性在那裡為什麼23號第一時間新北市除了通知台北市政府也通知中央也希望你中央可以有動作我提醒你同時兩邊都要做不是說只有地方做只有台北市做中央沒有作為我現在沒有在責怪你新北市同一時間"},{"start":18340.154,"end":18361.67,"text":"通知中央跟地方的目的在這裡那我現在提醒你我不知道你要怎麼做但是未來我才提問說你未來會不會檢測要做這個米酵菌酸常規的檢驗如果要你說還不知道未來要看檢查出來的結果所以我是提醒你看你要做以後地方才有才知道有一個準則嘛對不對"},{"start":18363.666,"end":18379.873,"text":"因為以現在來看的話好像不是所有的這種所謂的米果的果條的這個製造商那邊出來有問題所以應該是進入到這個餐廳之後才出問題的"},{"start":18381.153,"end":18401.762,"text":"餐廳到底是哪一個哪一個步驟讓他這個米酵菌酸跑出來這個目前還不知道那我們就要看調查結果如果沒有沒有辦法確定是哪一個那我們就必須要假設說餐廳餐廳處理這個都一定會有問題但是台灣現在已經有米酵菌酸"},{"start":18402.702,"end":18406.884,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢接下來我們請王宏威委員進行質詢好謝謝主席我請薛部長"},{"start":18434.177,"end":18457.965,"text":"最近的食安風暴真的是報不完現在我們國人非常關心那個寶林茶室這個當然關心另外的部分呢就是日本小林製藥的紅麴案現在在臺灣根據媒體報導說也已經有六位他就是會受到影響那其中三人呢已經出現了腎的病變"},{"start":18459.485,"end":18475.173,"text":"而且我知道你們也分別的去新北、台中、台北都有在去稽查所以我想請問部長以我們這個日本小林製藥的紅麴這個食安事件它算不算是一個系統性的風險"},{"start":18477.019,"end":18496.193,"text":"很可能是一個系統性的風險因為這在日本也是已經是系統性的風險在日本已經是那我們在臺灣因為現在亡羊補牢現在要下架的這個品項大概有226件之多目前之多可是未來還會不會再增加是有可能的"},{"start":18497.531,"end":18519.483,"text":"這個要看逐步的目前不排除嘛那現在有一個最重要的問題我們有注意到小林製藥他已經公佈要提出3.8億的台幣提供給就是進貨的廠商因為他們這個原料出現的問題在日本已經造成5人死亡"},{"start":18521.224,"end":18533.329,"text":"可能還會繼續的擴大所以部長也不排除系統性風險那駐日代表謝長廷那個代表他也說在駐日代表處都接獲我們臺灣人去投訴囉所以我在這邊要請問一下"},{"start":18539.432,"end":18566.866,"text":"如果因為這個案件是很麻煩他未來可能是進入洗腎在日本都有案例在台灣現在也提出說從去年開始在食用然後有洗腎的狀況那所以請問一下目前我們要如何確保我們台灣小林製藥日本紅麴他們可以得到應該有的賠償目前有沒有相關的機制"},{"start":18567.965,"end":18580.135,"text":"當然第一個目前的話我們接受通報如果說有這個實用相關產品因為小林紅麴本身的製品沒有進來它是原料進來原料進來之後的話是由臺灣的廠商去製作那個成品出來"},{"start":18583.658,"end":18592.904,"text":"所以廠商一定會去求償嘛對不對可是我們現在也有可能消費者去求償應該消費者先會求償求償的對象可能是我們國內的廠商因為他屬於他的兼銷或者是製造商所以他的對象應該是第一個這個但是這些廠商之後可能會跟日本那邊求償我在這邊為什麼特別提到你可以看到現在可能消費者"},{"start":18610.256,"end":18616.963,"text":"他可能會怕求速無門比如說他有的去跑到我們的日本代表處去求償有的可能到廠商去求償有些可能會來我們衛福部說怎麼求償所以呢對消費者來講因為他因為廠商他一定有他的律師的團隊"},{"start":18625.931,"end":18644.866,"text":"所以我們如何保障包含我們的消費者包含臺灣的廠商我覺得我們一定要先趕快做一個機制不要讓我們的消費者感到投訴無門尤其他如果發生他的腎病變他長期要洗腎這確實很麻煩的事情這個可不可以比如說在這個月之內"},{"start":18646.086,"end":18659.815,"text":"我覺得都有點久啦如果我是消費者我一定心急如焚我們先可不可以給我一個時間這個我們會很快啦大概一個禮拜之內我們先把這一個可能的球場的一個程序的話來跟消費者講"},{"start":18660.575,"end":18676.9,"text":"就告訴消費者我要怎麼樣去籌償對不對我還不需要打到那個日本的那個另外來看一下因為呢最近日本的這個食安事件其實是非常多比如說我們在3月份的致癌的秋刀魚"},{"start":18677.78,"end":18702.254,"text":"還有最近的小林製藥的紅麴還有在去年底的這個綠茶粉我這邊還少寫一個今年初還有發現含有農藥的日本草莓我要講的就是說我們對日本的這些食安問題不能夠打折扣其實你可以看到我們最近這麼多的這個爆發比如前陣子蘇丹紅我們都好像忽視了像致癌的秋刀魚啊綠茶 輻射的綠茶粉啊或者含有農藥過量的日本的草莓"},{"start":18706.696,"end":18706.916,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員的質詢"},{"start":18733.649,"end":18740.212,"text":"接下來請賴氏寶,賴氏寶,賴氏寶委員不在,我們請徐富奎委員進行質詢。謝謝主席,有請徐部長。好,請徐部長。"},{"start":18757.253,"end":18773.666,"text":"委員好部長午安我想部長是我們國內少數這個具有醫療跟法律背景而且是曾經在地方政府跟中央部會任職過的官員那我想我們都很尊重部長的專業那我想請教部長"},{"start":18774.346,"end":18795.543,"text":"因為農業部、農事所有重申說國內目前並沒有針對這個米酵菌酸有危害到農作物的一個記錄那也呼籲我們各界安心選用國產食材那針對這部分我想還是要請教部長到底寶林茶室這個案件是屬於個案還是一個通案我們有沒有掌握相關的資訊"},{"start":18797.634,"end":18812.501,"text":"應該是說它是一個侷限在一個單一的場所的群聚事件應該是這樣講部長那我想你也很了解你曾經在屏東縣政府任職過嘛你也認識我們屏東縣政府的人從早上早上開始就吃粿了"},{"start":18817.663,"end":18839.716,"text":"所以這個是貴家店這個生意真的受到很大的衝擊而且我們屏東縣也是這個產米的一個大縣那我們農民也是叫苦連天包含我們這個食品加工廠那目前我們有11個縣市營養午餐、停用果條、拌條甚至我們有重點稽查這個異國料理店這個年輕老闆大家人心惶惶針對這樣的做法部長認為有必要嗎?"},{"start":18845.212,"end":18858.906,"text":"應該是目前看起來的證據是沒有顯現說這個事件有擴大出去所以一般的所謂的裹條板條我是覺得應該不用太過擔心不過"},{"start":18859.747,"end":18888.927,"text":"因為目前這個果現在是大概是果條是一個標的果條的處理過程跟保存的過程是不是有什麼樣的一個問題才導致它產生這個米消菌酸這部分就是正在查的範圍如果有一個結論出來的時候我想我們大概會針對這一點去警告這個社會大眾跟這個業者"},{"start":18890.688,"end":18904.746,"text":"這裡邀請部長我們盡快釐清,畢竟這個食安問題是大眾關心的一個議題,尤其我們很多鄉親都是用粿仔做主食,大家吃了也比較安心,不會怕嚇唬"},{"start":18906.849,"end":18921.025,"text":"那我想最近我們一連串包含蘇丹紅還有這個米肖軍村的事件確實造成一些的衝擊那我們有看到我們有三大的受害的族群第一類最嚴重的當然是我們"},{"start":18922.206,"end":18939.282,"text":"直接栽種農作物的農民第二個就是我們的食品加工廠第三個就是餐廳大家這樣苦不堪言那尤其我們屏東這邊的相關的辣椒的價格有下跌三成那寶林茶室的事件也造成我們鄉親不敢吃粿有所影響我想"},{"start":18942.425,"end":18963.635,"text":"衛福部也應該盡快針對這樣一個事件趕快做釐清講對我們國內的這個農產品或者食品加工品是不是可以做一個相關的資訊的公告確認讓大家可以安心請部長說明這個有關於那一個辣椒這要不合理應該跟農業部說說看臺灣辣椒剛好現在就是最安全的時候所以它的介紹我們不會比較好"},{"start":18974.314,"end":18994.573,"text":"我們還是要請跨部會大家來處理一下我是覺得這個部分讓百姓能夠安心啦尤其保證嘛,該吃我們的冰凍的粿這應該是讓大家能夠更安心來使用避免影響到我們整個消費的市場是好,謝謝部長好,這期質詢到這邊結束好,謝謝徐副葵委員的質詢"},{"start":18998.956,"end":19001.217,"text":"主席好,我們請部長好,有請薛部長委員好"},{"start":19021.127,"end":19035.701,"text":"部長好其實剛才幾位農業縣的委員都有特別談到對生產端的這一個影響那我們當然知道說最近這個寶林茶室的食安問題他除了是消費端以外生產端他對我們中南部南部的縣市影響非常大"},{"start":19036.414,"end":19061.103,"text":"那王必勝次長他已經表示說23日的進貨的35項食材都沒有驗出米酵菌酸所以這個部分他們認為是前批的這個貨品是有問題的我想不管目前的食品的狀況我想會有因為大量的媒體報導然後把農產品跟這個米酵菌酸做連結這是現在我們遇到的"},{"start":19061.843,"end":19063.424,"text":"我們目前衛福部並沒有對全國的農產品去做普遍的檢測"},{"start":19087.987,"end":19112.538,"text":"我們現在針對的對象是涉及到這個個案的一個食材的一個檢測到目前為止這一個可以確定是米消菌酸引起來的中毒事件而這個米消菌酸只有在這一家寶林茶室在信義區的A13這邊的這一家發現到"},{"start":19117.205,"end":19134.638,"text":"而且這一些病人都這一個共通的這一個特色就是有食用果條所以其他部分的話大概就不相關了這果條到底是怎麼樣產生敏銷菌酸現在還在查"},{"start":19135.411,"end":19163.75,"text":"部長我認為危機溝通要更加有明確的指引就是說哪些食品在怎麼樣的保存方式實用無虞然後你要說明清楚我們不希望讓這種此產品若保存不當可能導致米酵菌酸等等或者說經此產品移等等等等這樣的訊息充斥在整個媒體變成主流的方式所以這個時候政府要負起的這個可信訊息的責任就非常的重大那根據CDC的危機和緊急風險"},{"start":19165.571,"end":19185.03,"text":"溝通那就是crisis emergency risk communication這個模式一般民眾能夠消化的訊息大概只有三條到四條所以剛才部長您談到的部分原則上也是把人事實地物大概是這三四件事情把它清楚的跟民眾溝通就很重要所以我認為說在危機的時期"},{"start":19186.431,"end":19209.777,"text":"我們必須要建立一個標準的危機的溝通的管理模式那讓這個正確的時間正確的訊息把資訊跟揣測把它分開清楚那帶領媒體的報導框架這是非常重要的也就是說未來我們政府針對這樣的危機處理跟發言必須要簡短重複清晰那最好是有一個完整的統一窗口"},{"start":19210.157,"end":19234.707,"text":"那過去在疫情期間有一個指揮中心所以說我們很快速的可以知道但是現在食品安全的問題食安的問題其實是蠻多元的有些時候是跟農業部管轄相關有些時候跟衛福部管轄相關所以我希望行政院的整合必須要很清楚像上次這個許先生我們的食安辦的也有談到食安部的主任那上一次就是一個我們曾經遇到的問題那當然"},{"start":19236.568,"end":19251.485,"text":"這個主任也很快速的有澄清這個問題只是說我們要必須不可以在資訊的傳播上面再多出疑問句或者是再多出其他跟此案不相關的相關的物品這些都不能夠再次出聲再次發現"},{"start":19252.406,"end":19252.766,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來請"},{"start":19280.726,"end":19302.325,"text":"賴慧媛、賴慧媛、賴慧媛委員不在吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在徐欣、徐欣、徐欣委員不在游浩、游浩、游浩委員不在吳秉瑞、吳秉瑞、吳秉瑞委員不在鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在李博毅、李博毅、李博毅委員不在何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在"},{"start":19303.311,"end":19327.676,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員邱振軍、王宏威所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":19331.627,"end":19332.648,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19360.603,"end":19362.325,"text":"多謝您的收看。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}