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又在國際會議裡面的考察活動但是目前我們兩岸關係的問題沒有解決但是呢我們的溝通的效果又在哪裡跟委員報告因為像去年有亞洲航運四大運我們陸委會的文教署有派人前往"},{"start":510.687,"end":519.929,"text":"至於香港辦的相關的教育展,我們也有同仁去代表參加。對,但是我們看到的就是108、109的沒有,110年沒有,112年也沒有。所以呢,我們出國的情形、考察的情形的結果跟效果在哪裡,都沒有報告。"},{"start":534.093,"end":535.214,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":558.63,"end":559.971,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":581.761,"end":582.621,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":602.426,"end":603.286,"text":"因為我從預算看到今年的海基會文書驗證案件比去年減少了3300件"},{"start":627.737,"end":629.257,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":645.262,"end":646.023,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":664.497,"end":691.969,"text":"沒有增加但是我們看到的案件減少但是預算是增加的麥委員你用的資料可能有點出入我給你詳細的資料去年度是暴增前年度只有五萬五千件去年度暴增到一萬件那今年到現在11月還沒結束是八萬三千多件所以從整個長年的趨勢上來看來今年是增加的"},{"start":692.449,"end":693.31,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":711.323,"end":711.863,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":737.476,"end":748.586,"text":"要有書面要有正確的明顯是改善明顯的是有達到我們要做的業務這樣我們才能接受謝謝接下來請劉許廷委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2052,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時52分）謝謝主席，有請陸委會主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。想要請教主委一下，我們外配拿臺灣身分證要放棄原國籍，陸配拿臺灣的身分證要放棄國籍嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：依照兩岸條例，陸配拿臺灣的身分證只要放棄對岸的戶籍，當然，也要申請到我們的身分，取得我們的戶籍，才能拿到我們的……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以他們沒有放棄國籍，我們要放棄國籍？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，因為兩岸條例並不處理國籍的問題，只有戶籍。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以大家都聽到了，陸委會的主委說不用放棄國籍。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，取得我們的身分不用……"],["麥委員玉珍：放棄國籍。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，我們只有處理戶籍的問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，不放棄國籍，我們外配要放棄國籍，就是要強調我們外配要放棄國籍，是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，是，目前是這樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝。我請教一下，原住民主委是不是原住民？在我們的法律上，原住民的主委是不是一定要是原住民才有資格當主委？是嗎？是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：應該沒有這個條件吧。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有嗎？沒有？原住民族委員會主委一定要是原住民才可以當，還有族群委員也是要原住民的身分才能當，主委知道嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我沒有這個資訊。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有這個資訊，你不知道？好。我們客家委員會的主委是不是也是要客家人？是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：一般慣例會請客家人、具客家身分的人來擔任這個職務……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，當主委嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：會比較適合。"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣才直接服務，自己族群的人服務自己族群。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以請教陸委會主委，你是陸委會主委，你代表哪個族群？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想過去擔任陸委會主委並沒有特定的族群。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有特定的族群，好。"],["邱主任委員垂正：只要他沒有雙重國籍就好。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為我不懂，所以要問你、問清楚。我們的邏輯就是哪一個族群就是哪一個代表才是直接服務，是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：看部會的屬性。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以我就請教一下，我不懂，你當主委，所以要請教你一下。你說其他你不懂，所以你說沒有代表性。我要請教一下，我們在處理兩岸關係，針對主委沒有這樣的規定，但是服務的對象是大陸還有港澳，裡面的工作人員有沒有代表大陸及港澳的人員去協助做協調，有嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然，作為臺灣的公務人員，首先就不能有雙重國籍，一定要放棄中華民國以外的國籍，擔任公職一定是如此的，避免解決……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們外配都要放棄國籍，才能當公職人員或者公務人員。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是對陸配沒有要求放棄國籍，你說要求一定要放棄國籍，才能考公務人員，是這樣嗎？我們都照法律走，但是我們希望也是要問清楚法律的原則嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，這個是戶籍，在臺灣生活跟放棄國籍是兩回事。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以這是兩回事嘛？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你講得很清楚，是兩回事。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們也知道是兩回事，所以我們依法執行、依法辦理。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果你說沒有，我再問你，陸委會明年還是編列港澳相關的預算，目前我國在香港、澳門各派幾名公務人員在那邊，我們駐在港澳那邊有幾個人？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們現在在香港……"],["麥委員玉珍：港澳。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的辦事處並沒有我們的公務人員在那裡，都是當地的雇員……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，當地雇員有幾人？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有42位。"],["麥委員玉珍：42位喔？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們看到只有2位是正職人員。"],["邱主任委員垂正：那是在澳門辦事處。"],["麥委員玉珍：對。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們在澳門有2位同仁，其他也都是雇員。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，我們現在各部門已經沒有了，但是我們還是編列港澳的官舍、館舍及停車場租金四千三百多萬，那邊已經人員減少，只有幾個人，但是為何還會循例編列高額的預算？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員指教……"],["麥委員玉珍：都沒有人了，還要編列這樣子的預算。"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是沒有人，我們有四十幾位雇員仍然在那裡推動館務的正常運作，包括我們的文書驗證數量搞不好是全球外館最多的其中之一……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們看到只有2位正職，其他你說四十幾位，我們在你們的網站、書面都沒有看到。"],["邱主任委員垂正：四十幾位當地的雇員他們仍然在執行包括核發簽證、護照，包括文書驗證、急難救助，這些館務仍然在推動當中。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是我們看到報告裡面沒有，所以你講的我們沒有看到。如果都編列這樣子不精準，其他預算是不是也誇大預算？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的租金，我們有租辦公室、官廳……"],["麥委員玉珍：因為去年港澳辦事處協調只派了4個人，書面有看到，派了4個人，工作的內容是一樣的，派了4個人；但是今年派了11個人，工作內容一樣，工作量一樣，，所以增加那麼多人是為什麼？你自己看！"],["邱主任委員垂正：您是說在港澳還是澳門？"],["麥委員玉珍：出國的人數。工作的內容是一樣的，完全沒有變喔，但是出國人數增加，從4個人增加到現在的11個人，所以工作內容差異在哪裡？出國人數為什麼增加？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，因為過去在疫情時，我們的同仁會去我們港澳的駐處進行各種業務考核，所以我們有安排這個，就是說我們……"],["麥委員玉珍：但那是去年，今年又沒有疫情，所以你的回答跟這個完全沒有關係，疫情去4個，沒有疫情去11個，這樣子的差異在哪裡？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是因為沒有疫情，我們比較能夠去啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有疫情多去玩一點，多人去，不是去處理事情？"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為我們已經沒有公務人員在那邊，我們要去做考察跟業務督導。"],["麥委員玉珍：有疫情少一點人去；沒有疫情多一點人去，這樣子的話會更熱鬧，是這樣子嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是這樣，我們去做必要的業務考察。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有明年出國的預算中，要增加經濟的專題考察，但是這一項兩年多下來，我們在網路上都沒有看到考察的效果是什麼，你們的工作效率又沒有好，但是又增加預算，又有國際會議的考察活動，但是目前我們兩岸關係的問題又沒有解決，所以我們溝通的效果又在哪裡？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，因為像去年有杭州亞運、世大運，我們陸委會文教處也有派人前往，至於香港辦的相關教育展，我們也有同仁代表參加，畢竟我們現在僑外生來自於香港的最多。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們看到的是108年，109年沒有；110年沒有；112年也沒有……"],["邱主任委員垂正：那是因為疫情的緣故。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們出國考察的結果跟效果在哪裡，都沒有報告，相關的資料都沒有，我們任何人出國考察，都是要寫報告的，但是你們都不用寫報告，還要去考察十幾次，包括考察經濟發展或是其他，但是我們兩岸的觀光問題沒有解決，這樣子的考察預算又沒有報告，這樣子是指大家都可以辦出國了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員指正，有關於這些考察，都有考察報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們在網路上都沒有看到啊！還有，就只有108年有，後面到今年都沒有。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，因為考察的內容有涉及到當事人，或是活動比較敏感，或是我們訪問的人比較敏感。"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣子那麼多年的考察都是敏感、都不用報告？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果委員有問政的需要，在保密的原則下，我們都願意去委員辦公室說明。"],["麥委員玉珍：經濟跟國際發展是敏感嗎？所以怎麼樣促進我們國際的發展呢？怎麼促進我們經濟的發展呢？怎麼促進我們觀光的發展呢？說是敏感，但又沒有達到效果，所以什麼叫做敏感？又要叫做機密了嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，在保密的原則下，我們都願意去委員辦公室說明考察的成果。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有，因為時間的關係，所以這個部分我希望我們要看到真正的結果。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好的，我們願意配合。"],["麥委員玉珍：主席，給我1分鐘，還有最後一題，我想要請教一下，因為我從預算書看到今年海基會文書驗證案件比去年減少了3,300件，服務案件也減少了3萬件，但是預算卻增加了六千四百多萬元，業務減少但是錢又增加，我們的預算是能做多少沒關係，但是歷年之所以增加，是因為業務有增加，若減少則是因為達不成目標，但你們還是可以增加的，是這樣的邏輯嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然不是，海基會在做文書驗證，數量是非常多，而且人力都沒有增加，相關的情形我是不是請……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有增加，但是我們看到的是案件數量減少而預算是增加的。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：麥委員引用的資料可能有點出入，我給你詳細的資料，去年度是暴增的，前年度只有5萬5,000件，去年度暴增到1萬件，今年到現在11月還沒結束，是八萬三千多件，所以從整個長年的趨勢上來看，今年是增加的。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你這部分的書面在哪裡？因為我們看到你們給我們的書面是沒有的，都是減少的，希望你可以提供一個完整的資料給我。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：沒有問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們才能知道你的數量是增加的，你的經費要增加是合理的，而不是你的數量減少那麼多，你的額度、經費又增加那麼多，這個都是人民的血汗錢！"],["羅副董事長文嘉：再跟委員報告，沒有增加，這個引用的數字是錯誤的，我們馬上提供正確資料。"],["麥委員玉珍：除了你剛才說的書面，還有就是要真的把錢花在刀口上，這些請提供我們書面，我們才能為人民把關這個錢，確定這不是亂花，所以不能用說的，而是要有書面的、要有正確的，明顯是有改善、明顯是有達到你們該做的業務，這樣我們才能接受，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-13","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","王美惠","李柏毅","張智倫","黃捷","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","黃建賓","賴士葆","吳琪銘","丁學忠","王義川","葉元之","黃國昌","羅智強","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算；三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法\n人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案；四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進\n會114年度預算書案【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】","agenda_id":"11311101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}