{"error":false,"id":["157759"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157759,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157759","日期":"2024-12-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-36-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-04T10:25:41+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-04T10:31:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:05:29","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd82083600d4eefdb465051fc2ad4098cec3b17fdf169037e582a32061a6072d9306be1cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:25:41 - 10:31:10","會議時間":"2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分。\n【僅進行詢答；預算提案於12月10日中午12時截止收件】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.240343750000001,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.99034375,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.344093750000003,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.47034375,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.97596875,"end":29.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.38909375,"end":35.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.21096875,"end":47.314718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.58471875,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.735968750000005,"end":56.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.102218750000006,"end":59.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.56596875,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.58596875,"end":68.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.30284375000001,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.53409375000001,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.98471875,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.53284375000001,"end":85.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.60409375,"end":88.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.26596875,"end":90.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.02096875000001,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.34659375000001,"end":114.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.73034375,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.69971875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.90596875000001,"end":126.57659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.76221875,"end":128.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.92221875,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.15784375,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.18284375000002,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.11909375000002,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.97534375,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.21159375000002,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.75534375,"end":145.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.47221875,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.85159375,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.14659375000002,"end":170.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.95784375000002,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.43846875,"end":176.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.74159375000002,"end":179.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.35721875000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.15846875000003,"end":183.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.01471875000001,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.71471875,"end":189.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.49909375000001,"end":195.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.88221875000002,"end":197.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.41346875000002,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.04596875000001,"end":205.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.44596875000002,"end":209.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.54659375,"end":211.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.01471875000001,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.60909375,"end":217.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.42721875,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.25409375,"end":221.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.49846875,"end":223.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.74284375000002,"end":224.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.14346875,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.51034375,"end":228.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.91909375,"end":232.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.02409375000002,"end":236.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.90534375000001,"end":238.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.62221875,"end":240.92159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.05659375000002,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.69346875000002,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.52346875,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.48096875000002,"end":256.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.40846875,"end":259.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.54721875,"end":262.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.33159375,"end":266.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.90471875000003,"end":270.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.39784375,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.71409375,"end":275.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.97096875,"end":276.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.60784375000003,"end":278.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.59909375,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.83909375,"end":284.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.93159375,"end":286.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.17596875000004,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.07409375000003,"end":293.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.79096875,"end":294.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.51221875000005,"end":297.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.84096875,"end":300.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.65909375,"end":306.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.02096875,"end":308.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.28221875,"end":312.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.39971875000003,"end":316.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.07846875,"end":326.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.77284375000005,"end":329.97096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.448,"end":22.725,"text":"我先宣告一下在羅志強委員發言完畢之後我們休息五分鐘主席各位委員有請副秘書長麻煩副秘書長副秘書長好今天來不是針對你們的預算"},{"start":28.089,"end":56.336,"text":"而是如果我們﹐我是期免﹐期免我們立法院的﹐因為畢竟這個立法院在五院之中﹐非常重要的一個角色﹐尤其是在審查預算﹐或是結算的時候都非常重要﹐這個我們就以常常我們的﹐很多的立法委員會常常引用的是什麼呢﹐就是預算中心嘛﹐"},{"start":57.776,"end":84.869,"text":"預算中心的資料這就很重要因為這個立法委員來自各個不同的地方然後的任期也不一定所以然後這個委員的助理的經驗也未必那麼的這個每一個都能夠升任不能講說升任了那麼了解了那麼了解所以預算中心就很重要"},{"start":85.689,"end":113.679,"text":"當然不是只有預算中心包括其他的各處都很重要尤其是各委員會的這些工作人員都很重要所以讓立法院運作的非常達到監督各個院各個部會我們就以這個最近"},{"start":115.17,"end":142.667,"text":"這個被因為霸凌案然後就產生了這個相關的預算的滋用我們就以就業基金來講以這個為例就業安定基金這很清楚的就業安定基金的用途非常清楚用途非常清楚但是卻被挪用作為不應該滋用的地方"},{"start":144.183,"end":170.488,"text":"那表示什麼呢?表示這個預算的編列怎麼樣去把它檢討這個是我們要去當然立委有責任立法院的這些同仁也有責任提供就像預算中心一樣能夠提供好的一個對國家對社會有幫助的部分"},{"start":171.021,"end":199.179,"text":"因為這個就案提及非常重要啊。你看貝爾納用到八千多萬的錢。這很難以想像啊。這裡面還包含著什麼呢?包含著操資並結算啊。因為預算是看不出來啊。在審查預算的時候看不出來就案提及他要做什麼用。他寫的很掛勉堂皇啊。就是符合"},{"start":201.309,"end":228.164,"text":"就要安提金的用途在預算書裡面是符合啊看不出來啊但是為什麼後來可以做這種事情會被挪用就是因為操資並結算很少人知道操資並結算啊連一般的公務員也不知道操資並結算是什麼更何況這個立法委員的這些助理"},{"start":229.943,"end":256.404,"text":"一般公務員也不知道超支並結算那事實上就是超支並結算這個機制顯然有問題預算中心的同仁怎麼樣能夠提出這樣的我也請教過預算中心我雖然是老公務員我30年公務員我還請教過預算中心什麼是超支並結算"},{"start":257.655,"end":285.68,"text":"因為不是每個部會都有這個有這樣的一個機會碰到遭操之並結算尤其是尤其是執行預算非常嚴謹非常依法行政的時候沒有去操之並結算當然也就不知道操之並結算的這個功能還是他的我們講法寶嗎"},{"start":287.553,"end":315.965,"text":"所以這個部分了﹖所以祈勉我們所有的這個立法院的同仁能夠為國家為人民來去守護我們的相關的這些預算的審查結算的審查所以顯然呢審計部沒有顯然沒有好好的就結算的部分來善盡責任了"},{"start":317.125,"end":329.77,"text":"﹗"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":674,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時25分）主席、各位委員。有請副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副秘書長好。今天來不是針對你們的預算，我是期勉啦！期勉我們立法院，因為畢竟立法院在五院之中是非常重要的一個角色，尤其是在審查預算或是決算的時候都非常重要，我們很多的立法委員常常引用的是什麼？就是預算中心嘛！對不對？預算中心的資料就很重要，因為立法委員來自各個不同的地方，然後任期也不一定，委員助理的經驗也未必都能夠勝任，不能講說勝任，是那麼了解，所以預算中心就很重要。當然不是只有預算中心，包括其他的各處都很重要，尤其是各委員會的這些工作人員都很重要，讓立法院的運作能夠監督各個院、各個部會。","我們就以最近因為霸凌案，然後產生了相關預算的支用，我們以就業基金來講，就以這個為例，就業安定基金的用途非常清楚，但是卻被挪用作為不應該支用的地方，那表示什麼呢？表示檢討預算的編列是我們要去做的，當然立委有責任，立法院的這些同仁也有責任提供，就像預算中心一樣，能夠提供一個好的對國家、對社會有幫助的部分，因為這個就業安定基金非常重要，卻被挪用八千多萬的錢，這很難以想像，這裡面還包含著什麼呢？包含著超支併決算，因為預算書看不出來，在審查預算的時候，看不出來就業安定基金它要做什麼用，它寫得很冠冕堂皇，就是符合就業安定基金的用途，在預算書裡面是符合，看不出來，但是為什麼後來可以做這種事情？會被挪用？就是因為超支併決算，很少人知道超支併決算，連一般的公務員也不知道超支併決算是什麼，更何況立法委員的這些助理，一般公務員也不知道超支併決算，那事實上就是超支併決算這個機制顯然有問題，預算中心的同仁怎麼樣能夠提出這樣的……我也請教過預算中心，我雖然是老公務員，我是30年的公務員，我還請教過預算中心什麼是超支併決算，因為不是每個部會都有這樣的機會碰到超支併決算，尤其是執行預算非常嚴謹、非常依法行政的時候，沒有去超支併決算，當然也就不知道超支併決算的功能，還是我們講法寶嗎？","所以這個部分期勉我們所有立法院的同仁，能夠為國家、為人民來去守護我們相關這些預算的審查、決算的審查，顯然審計部沒有好好的就決算的部分來善盡責任，我從這樣的一個部分來看，是有這樣的一個想法，所以我今天來不是針對你們的預算，而是來期勉大家。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","林思銘","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","葉元之","吳思瑤","謝龍介"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11311101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}